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Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:

Tebu Gan wrote:

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

Forge gun:

+ Longest ranged AV option
+ Has multiple useful variants
+ Highest alpha damage of all AV
+ Strong against infantry - there's a reason it's been used as a sniper replacement in the past (and been nerfed for it)
+ Most accurate AV option - can reliably hit weakpoints
+ Fastest projectile of all AV
- Charge time
- Lowered mobility whilst charging
- Has to be on a heavy suit (? Does this count as a real combat drawback?)

Swarm launcher:

+ Tracking
+ Doesn't need to be used on a heavy suit
- Short range
- Travel time
- Completely unable to defend against infantry, rendering a sidearm mandatory
- Unreliable on ground targets (e.g. frequently running into walls)
- Lock-on time (less than forge gun's charge up time though)
- Cannot be pre-charged (unlike the forge gun)

There're probably a couple of points you can scrounge elsewhere, but I don't really think that lineup favours the swarms.

The one thing that has always bugged me about the FG is that range. It's a railgun on a heavy suit that has full up and down directional aiming and able to position itself in far more advantageous positions over a tank it's intended to fight. I would personally like to see the FG get knocked down a peg or two on range.

Maybe trade out for more damage but less range.

Breakin, where you at fool.

At the same time though, the forge gun has lower magazine, ammo carried, and a slower refire rate than the big railgun turret. Additionally, the platforms the forge gun is deployed on are far more susceptible to small-arms fire than the HAVs/emplacements the Railgun turrets go on. My only problem with the forge gun is how effective it is at sniping...making it effectively a better sniper rifle than the sniper rifle, but this is more an issue with the sniper rifles than with the forge gun itself

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 14 post(s)
Moochie Cricket Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 1	Posted - 2015.09.24 19:42:00 - [181] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: So in nerfing swarm range YET AGAIN, when it badly needed a buff to be able to hit... anything even remotely airborne.... swarms can now only be used against dropships that are parked. Which you are standing next to? GTFO Caldari REALLY 514
XxBlazikenxX Ancient Exiles. 2	Posted - 2015.09.24 19:44:00 - [182] - Quote Moochie Cricket wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: So in nerfing swarm range YET AGAIN, when it badly needed a buff to be able to hit... anything even remotely airborne.... swarms can now only be used against dropships that are parked. Which you are standing next to? GTFO I have no idea how he of all people got on CPM 1. AVERT YOUR EYES!
Soraya Xel Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 6	Posted - 2015.09.24 19:44:00 - [183] - Quote Let's be clear, nobody's "forgetting" anything. Dropship pilots are conveniently leaving out realities that help ensure they're OP, but that's not any different than usual. You need a 250m range in order to be able to engage at 150m. Because if a swarm launcher is engaging at maximum range, then the dropship pilot can fly out of lock range too quickly to fire enough swarms to even do significant damage. I need 250m range so that I know when I fire at 150m, I might be able to get a couple shots off before dropships buzz out of range. Now, if you're worried about redlining, and need to keep the range short: We can just half the speed of dropships instead. But I think the range is a much better solution. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Aeon Amadi 12	Posted - 2015.09.24 19:45:00 - [184] - Quote Duke Noobiam wrote: As others have done, I'd like to voice my concern on the galente assault bonus. It seems to me that 5% per level is obviously too much when you consider this will basically translate to a 25% DPS increase. We've seen in the past that much smaller increases to DPS have had huge impacts on balance and weapon viability. Examples: 1. The ASCR DPS was recently buffed by 15%, it is now acknowledged that the weapon is unbalanced. 2. The 10% damage bonus my Commando gets is very noticeable when compared to using the same weapon with a logi or assault. Why not make it 2% or 3% per level and evaluate the impact of the change rather than using a number that is glaringly too big and that will require lowering within one week of the release? S'fair assessment, really. On the one hand the Gallente Assault needs to be the CQC king as far as the Assault line is concerned and it is an interesting way to bring the AR back into viability without directly changing the weapon itself. Based on the stats of Gallente Assault suits with ARRs maybe now we'll finally see them using racial weaponry in their intended environment while the Caldari Assault has much better long-range damage application with the kick reduction. I am a bit concerned that 25% is too much but it largely depends on context and circumstance because it is easier to hit a target at longer ranges than it is to hit them at close range where target tracking and mobility matter more. On paper, it seems extreme, but in reality there may be a hefty amount of rounds that miss. Applied DPS =/= Paper DPS, after all. However, it is definitely something I want to keep an eye on because there are a lot of areas where CQC is the preferred method. This also, mind you, infringes very heavily on the HMG Sentinel and I'm concerned that the AR+Gal Assault combo might overshadow it. We'll see what happens there but it is also something I'll be monitoring, personally. But, yanno, if we have to lower it we have to lower it. No big deal. Guaranteed that I'll be biting someone's heels if it becomes a problem and isn't addressed quickly (I'm looking at you, Uprising 1.7 HAVs) Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog Skype: nomistrav
Jakkal Shoobah Eastern Star Recon Group 237	Posted - 2015.09.24 19:45:00 - [185] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: At 150m lockon, it is functionally impossible to kill a dropship that isn't AFK. Its easy to watch ANy pilot die to two well Cooardinated Av attacks. You shouldn't expect to rek the ds as fast as infantry just because you have a missle launcher on your suit. Its quite ridiculous really. If the pilot ever makes a mistake you can punish him for it. If he evades you by breaking Los , using building cover, and his speed and flight to his advantage then yeah he should be able to do that. While slow to anger and occasionally indecisive, they are also capable of harnessing enormous resolve when truly tested.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 432	Posted - 2015.09.24 19:46:00 - [186] - Quote Moochie Cricket wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: So in nerfing swarm range YET AGAIN, when it badly needed a buff to be able to hit... anything even remotely airborne.... swarms can now only be used against dropships that are parked. Which you are standing next to? GTFO No...Xel has a point. 150m is just over max-rifle engagement range...it is actually very close (similar ranges to what you can use a laser rifle at). I don't think that the range should have been increased, but I also don't think it needed to be decreased any further (unless invisible swarms returned as an issue). Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
Soraya Xel Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 6	Posted - 2015.09.24 19:46:00 - [187] - Quote XxBlazikenxX wrote: I have no idea how he of all people got on CPM 1. Why do you +1 all of my posts and then insult me in your posts? CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Aeon Amadi 12	Posted - 2015.09.24 19:47:00 - [188] - Quote Bremen van Equis wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Let me propose a far better swarm fix, Rattati. - Increase the lockon range to 225-250m. - Reduce the tracking range to more like 250m-275m. This is both a quality of life improvement for: - Swarmers can now actually fire at dropships again, without having to try to position themselves directly under the target. - Dropships have a much more reasonable chance of escaping shots they are actively trying to avoid. You still get the turning radius nerf, which is fine, but we need some operational range we just don't have to make swarms viable. Forge still maintains far superior damage, range, and accuracy. Remember, dear Soraya, with your sweet sculptural logics and werds, that the swarmer is effectively invisible (not rendering) to the DS pilot outside of the new lockon range. Now pilots will be able to see you with your buffed shields on your buffed swarm-dmg calmando around the same time they can actually engage you. Wutz the problem? Looking forward to seeing what sort of interesting fits come out of the Cal Mando =) Do they add damage mods for swarm/sniper capability? Do they add shield rechargers for hit-and-run capability? Do they add extenders for better tanking relying on the newly buffed stats? SO EXCITING :D Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog Skype: nomistrav
Soraya Xel Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 6	Posted - 2015.09.24 19:48:00 - [189] - Quote Jakkal Shoobah wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: At 150m lockon, it is functionally impossible to kill a dropship that isn't AFK. Its easy to watch ANy pilot die to two well Cooardinated Av attacks. You shouldn't expect to rek the ds as fast as infantry just because you have a missle launcher on your suit. Its quite ridiculous really. If the pilot ever makes a mistake you can punish him for it. If he evades you by breaking Los , using building cover, and his speed and flight to his advantage then yeah he should be able to do that. This is dropship pilot nonsense. I know dropship pilots are used to being OP, but one class cannot be just "inherently better" than every other. In addition to a dropship's ability to fly, traverse the map in seconds, and also require multiple people "coordinating" to kill you, you're immune to most of the weapons in the game. I'm not even trying to fix how fundamentally broken dropships are as a thing, I just want a weapon that was designed pretty much entirely to kill dropships, to actually be able to hit them. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 433	Posted - 2015.09.24 19:48:00 - [190] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Bremen van Equis wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Let me propose a far better swarm fix, Rattati. - Increase the lockon range to 225-250m. - Reduce the tracking range to more like 250m-275m. This is both a quality of life improvement for: - Swarmers can now actually fire at dropships again, without having to try to position themselves directly under the target. - Dropships have a much more reasonable chance of escaping shots they are actively trying to avoid. You still get the turning radius nerf, which is fine, but we need some operational range we just don't have to make swarms viable. Forge still maintains far superior damage, range, and accuracy. Remember, dear Soraya, with your sweet sculptural logics and werds, that the swarmer is effectively invisible (not rendering) to the DS pilot outside of the new lockon range. Now pilots will be able to see you with your buffed shields on your buffed swarm-dmg calmando around the same time they can actually engage you. Wutz the problem? Looking forward to seeing what sort of interesting fits come out of the Cal Mando =) Do they add damage mods for swarm/sniper capability? Do they add shield rechargers for hit-and-run capability? Do they add extenders for better tanking relying on the newly buffed stats? SO EXCITING :D Myos for mobility, positioning, and power-fist is probably what I'll run Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.

Regnier Feros Pielords 757	Posted - 2015.09.24 19:51:00 - [191] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Bremen van Equis wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Let me propose a far better swarm fix, Rattati. - Increase the lockon range to 225-250m. - Reduce the tracking range to more like 250m-275m. This is both a quality of life improvement for: - Swarmers can now actually fire at dropships again, without having to try to position themselves directly under the target. - Dropships have a much more reasonable chance of escaping shots they are actively trying to avoid. You still get the turning radius nerf, which is fine, but we need some operational range we just don't have to make swarms viable. Forge still maintains far superior damage, range, and accuracy. Remember, dear Soraya, with your sweet sculptural logics and werds, that the swarmer is effectively invisible (not rendering) to the DS pilot outside of the new lockon range. Now pilots will be able to see you with your buffed shields on your buffed swarm-dmg calmando around the same time they can actually engage you. Wutz the problem? Looking forward to seeing what sort of interesting fits come out of the Cal Mando =) Do they add damage mods for swarm/sniper capability? Do they add shield rechargers for hit-and-run capability? Do they add extenders for better tanking relying on the newly buffed stats? SO EXCITING :D What about the av laser....... LongLiveQueenZarZar
Jakkal Shoobah Eastern Star Recon Group 239	Posted - 2015.09.24 19:57:00 - [192] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Jakkal Shoobah wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: At 150m lockon, it is functionally impossible to kill a dropship that isn't AFK. Its easy to watch ANy pilot die to two well Cooardinated Av attacks. You shouldn't expect to rek the ds as fast as infantry just because you have a missle launcher on your suit. Its quite ridiculous really. If the pilot ever makes a mistake you can punish him for it. If he evades you by breaking Los , using building cover, and his speed and flight to his advantage then yeah he should be able to do that. This is dropship pilot nonsense. I know dropship pilots are used to being OP, but one class cannot be just "inherently better" than every other. In addition to a dropship's ability to fly, traverse the map in seconds, and also require multiple people "coordinating" to kill you, you're immune to most of the weapons in the game. I'm not even trying to fix how fundamentally broken dropships are as a thing, I just want a weapon that was designed pretty much entirely to kill dropships, to actually be able to hit them. Its not impossible to kill a ds solo. I like infantry but I've tested out vehicles. You can't say swarms are completely ineffective at their only role. I'm not saying ds should be god mode. It doesn't take more than one person to kill one It only becomes easier with multiple. Same thing applies to infantry . Why don't you like the changes to turn radius ? The range Nerf I understand , but irs only 25 meters that's nothing. Why do you want your swarms to lock onto any vehicle you can see? While slow to anger and occasionally indecisive, they are also capable of harnessing enormous resolve when truly tested.
XxBlazikenxX Ancient Exiles. 2	Posted - 2015.09.24 20:00:00 - [193] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Jakkal Shoobah wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: At 150m lockon, it is functionally impossible to kill a dropship that isn't AFK. Its easy to watch ANy pilot die to two well Cooardinated Av attacks. You shouldn't expect to rek the ds as fast as infantry just because you have a missle launcher on your suit. Its quite ridiculous really. If the pilot ever makes a mistake you can punish him for it. If he evades you by breaking Los , using building cover, and his speed and flight to his advantage then yeah he should be able to do that. This is dropship pilot nonsense. I know dropship pilots are used to being OP, but one class cannot be just "inherently better" than every other. In addition to a dropship's ability to fly, traverse the map in seconds, and also require multiple people "coordinating" to kill you, you're immune to most of the weapons in the game. I'm not even trying to fix how fundamentally broken dropships are as a thing, I just want a weapon that was designed pretty much entirely to kill dropships, to actually be able to hit them. Yeah because it's definetely fair for us to lose a dropship that costs 500k (including your suit) to a suit that costs 5 times less than that. AVERT YOUR EYES!
Jakkal Shoobah Eastern Star Recon Group 240	Posted - 2015.09.24 20:04:00 - [194] - Quote Its totally fair to lose it to one guy if you let him . In fact its stupid to lose it to one guy. I get mad at myself for being stupid enough to do so While slow to anger and occasionally indecisive, they are also capable of harnessing enormous resolve when truly tested.
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 3	Posted - 2015.09.24 20:09:00 - [195] - Quote Am I the only guy with popcorn up in this crib? Pilots, assemble for a picnic!! 99% of what Derrith says is stupidity. -D3lta Blitzkrieg Oh yeah?! Well, I love redheads.
Soraya Xel Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 6	Posted - 2015.09.24 20:11:00 - [196] - Quote Jakkal Shoobah wrote: Why don't you like the changes to turn radius ? The range Nerf I understand , but irs only 25 meters that's nothing. Why do you want your swarms to lock onto any vehicle you can see? I am fine with the turn radius changes. I need to be able to lock on and hit dropships that are attacking my team. And I probably should at least be partially as capable of doing so as a forge gunner, which has a 300m effective range. (And much higher damage to boot.) CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
XxBlazikenxX Ancient Exiles. 2	Posted - 2015.09.24 20:11:00 - [197] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: Am I the only guy with popcorn up in this crib? Pilots, assemble for a picnic!! Nahh, I got my chocalate covered pretzels next to me (no joke) so I'm good AVERT YOUR EYES!
Soraya Xel Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 6	Posted - 2015.09.24 20:12:00 - [198] - Quote XxBlazikenxX wrote: Yeah because it's definetely fair for us to lose a dropship that costs 500k (including your suit) to a suit that costs 5 times less than that. A swarm user will lose at least five dropsuits trying to kill your one dropship once. And STILL FAIL TO KILL YOU. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
XxBlazikenxX Ancient Exiles. 2	Posted - 2015.09.24 20:13:00 - [199] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Jakkal Shoobah wrote: Why don't you like the changes to turn radius ? The range Nerf I understand , but irs only 25 meters that's nothing. Why do you want your swarms to lock onto any vehicle you can see? I am fine with the turn radius changes. I need to be able to lock on and hit dropships that are attacking my team. And I probably should at least be partially as capable of doing so as a forge gunner, which has a 300m effective range. (And much higher damage to boot.) So basically you're saying that on certain maps 1 guy will be able to lock down an entire half of the map with a weapon from dropships? Combined with two people you got yourself an OP weapon. That's right, I said OP, because it is. Forge gun takes skill to use, swarm launcher, just look and shoot. AVERT YOUR EYES!
Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.09.24 20:13:00 - [200] - Quote The Assault changes, are they replacing the old bonus, or are they in addition to the current ones? Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.

Bradric Banewolf Titans of Phoenix Damage LLC 1	Posted - 2015.09.24 20:14:00 - [201] - Quote Rattati! The loyalist in the federation never doubted you.... well... Maybe a little bit, but you are true to the federation lol! I will make these new additions work in favor of gallente glory! "Anybody order chaos?"
XxBlazikenxX Ancient Exiles. 2	Posted - 2015.09.24 20:14:00 - [202] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: XxBlazikenxX wrote: Yeah because it's definetely fair for us to lose a dropship that costs 500k (including your suit) to a suit that costs 5 times less than that. A swarm user will lose at least five dropsuits trying to kill your one dropship once. And STILL FAIL TO KILL YOU. I can say that most times engaging a swarm launcher for more than 2 seconds is a death sentence. So you should change your sentence. "I will make you run away all five attempts at trying to kill you. And still make you lose 500k isk." AVERT YOUR EYES!
Vulpes Dolosus Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 3	Posted - 2015.09.24 20:15:00 - [203] - Quote If Soraya disapproves of the AV changes, then I firmly approve. Edit: I will be honest though, kind of screwing over the Minmando players. I don't see how switching the bonuses on suits changes anything, other than lore. But by that reasoning Cal scouts should get the NK bonus, which will make everyone pissed off. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 3	Posted - 2015.09.24 20:15:00 - [204] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: The Assault changes, are they replacing the old bonus, or are they in addition to the current ones? If I read it correctly, it will be added onto the bonus. Also, Soraya is going on a rant, and I'm going to watch. I brought popcorn, and Blaziken has chocolate pretzels. You want in? 99% of what Derrith says is stupidity. -D3lta Blitzkrieg Oh yeah?! Well, I love redheads.
XxBlazikenxX Ancient Exiles. 2	Posted - 2015.09.24 20:15:00 - [205] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: The Assault changes, are they replacing the old bonus, or are they in addition to the current ones? In addition, that question was already answered. AVERT YOUR EYES!
Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.09.24 20:19:00 - [206] - Quote Rattati, you really need to reconsider the changes to grenades. Instead, look at normalizing splash radius, and then having damage increase slightly through the tiers. My numbers are as follows. Base locus nades: All have 6m range STD: 400 damage ADV: 450 damage PRO: 500 damage Sleek locus grenades: All have 9m range STD: 300 ADV: 350 PRO: 400 Packed locus grendes: All have 3m range STD: 500 ADV: 550 PRO: 600 This is a logical progression, a nerf to Core nades, a buff to STD/ADV nades, and brings all grenade types to all tiers with a logical progression. God, I can hear the complaints of grenade spam now if you put your current changes through. Please look at my numbers and reconsider. Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.09.24 20:20:00 - [207] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: The Assault changes, are they replacing the old bonus, or are they in addition to the current ones? If I read it correctly, it will be added onto the bonus. Also, Soraya is going on a rant, and I'm going to watch. I brought popcorn, and Blaziken has chocolate pretzels. You want in? Why yes, yes I do want in. Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
XxBlazikenxX Ancient Exiles. 2	Posted - 2015.09.24 20:21:00 - [208] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: The Assault changes, are they replacing the old bonus, or are they in addition to the current ones? If I read it correctly, it will be added onto the bonus. Also, Soraya is going on a rant, and I'm going to watch. I brought popcorn, and Blaziken has chocolate pretzels. You want in? Finally someone who spells my name right! AVERT YOUR EYES!
Tebu Gan Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.09.24 20:22:00 - [209] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Forge gun: + Longest ranged AV option + Has multiple useful variants + Highest alpha damage of all AV + Strong against infantry - there's a reason it's been used as a sniper replacement in the past (and been nerfed for it) + Most accurate AV option - can reliably hit weakpoints + Fastest projectile of all AV - Charge time - Lowered mobility whilst charging - Has to be on a heavy suit (? Does this count as a real combat drawback?) Swarm launcher: + Tracking + Doesn't need to be used on a heavy suit - Short range - Travel time - Completely unable to defend against infantry, rendering a sidearm mandatory - Unreliable on ground targets (e.g. frequently running into walls) - Lock-on time (less than forge gun's charge up time though) - Cannot be pre-charged (unlike the forge gun) There're probably a couple of points you can scrounge elsewhere, but I don't really think that lineup favours the swarms. The one thing that has always bugged me about the FG is that range. It's a railgun on a heavy suit that has full up and down directional aiming and able to position itself in far more advantageous positions over a tank it's intended to fight. I would personally like to see the FG get knocked down a peg or two on range. Maybe trade out for more damage but less range. Breakin, where you at fool. At the same time though, the forge gun has lower magazine, ammo carried, and a slower refire rate than the big railgun turret. Additionally, the platforms the forge gun is deployed on are far more susceptible to small-arms fire than the HAVs/emplacements the Railgun turrets go on. My only problem with the forge gun is how effective it is at sniping...making it effectively a better sniper rifle than the sniper rifle, but this is more an issue with the sniper rifles than with the forge gun itself Positioning is everything. Being able to position yourself on a key tower limits your risk and maximizes gains. A FG on a tower can effectively deny a HUGE area around said tower. Like say the mushroom on the research lab or cargo hub tower or rings. On the cargo hub, they can nearly reach both home points, and can be incredibly difficult to dislodge. Would a shortened range of say 200M really destroy their role? If anything it gives the ADS or DS more breathing room to operate and dislodge them, and allows a tank to at least operate in areas around them without being insta ganked the moment they move any where near them. For all their "faults", the FG stands above tanks and any other form of AV as the ultimate AV weapon in my book. They are one of the most crucial parts to a PC battle. Tanks are just there to supplement the FG. A little less range won't have a damning affect on their operation.
DiablosMajora 302	Posted - 2015.09.24 20:24:00 - [210] - Quote New Melee-AV Dropsuit concept art. Prepare your angus



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