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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 14 post(s) |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.09.25 03:13:00 -
[331] - Quote
Tebu Gan wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:
Forge gun:
+ Longest ranged AV option
+ Has multiple useful variants
+ Highest alpha damage of all AV
+ Strong against infantry - there's a reason it's been used as a sniper replacement in the past (and been nerfed for it)
+ Most accurate AV option - can reliably hit weakpoints
+ Fastest projectile of all AV
- Charge time
- Lowered mobility whilst charging
- Has to be on a heavy suit (? Does this count as a real combat drawback?)
Swarm launcher:
+ Tracking
+ Doesn't need to be used on a heavy suit
- Short range
- Travel time
- Completely unable to defend against infantry, rendering a sidearm mandatory
- Unreliable on ground targets (e.g. frequently running into walls)
- Lock-on time (less than forge gun's charge up time though)
- Cannot be pre-charged (unlike the forge gun)
There're probably a couple of points you can scrounge elsewhere, but I don't really think that lineup favours the swarms.
The one thing that has always bugged me about the FG is that range. It's a railgun on a heavy suit that has full up and down directional aiming and able to position itself in far more advantageous positions over a tank it's intended to fight. I would personally like to see the FG get knocked down a peg or two on range. Maybe trade out for more damage but less range. Breakin, where you at fool.
When hell freezes over unless the rate of fire goes up on the forge.
Then we'll talk.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.09.25 03:20:00 -
[332] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Interesting changes...... still not really enough to make HAV real tanks.
Will there ever be a time in this game when the round I fire from my HAV turret explodes with full AoE effect?
True, I have to ask, how would a giant explosion able to damage vehicles be in any way sort of balanced? People would just blap once and scurry into the redline to wait out the cooldown. I doubt we will see anything with a splash radius larger than 7m.
I can see tanks working better if we slowed them down and greatly reduced their acceleration, but any kind of giant explosion is going to be OP in almost all contexts.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
26
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Posted - 2015.09.25 03:21:00 -
[333] - Quote
just clearing up some things
Commando will hit for be 270, after the reduction to melee damage myofibs, should be comparable as before. That was not intended to be reduced.
Gallente Assault ROF bonus only applies to Assault Rifles (the whole family) and is now 3% per level, for a 15% total.
I hear the nade concerns, and we will see how it pans out.
I stand fully by the whole HAV/AV reasoning in the OP. Assault Swarm launchers are still on the table for being an Anti Air platform.
The plan for Melee was to be effective, especially on the Weak Spots but the code for Melee Damage vs Nova Knives is a bit blurred, looking into it. I will also share a few screenshots on the weak spots.
People who complain about Scrambler Hipfire kick going from 0.025 to 0.1 as "OMG 400% nerf" need to play the game. This is intended to stop spam and nothing else. Currently the 0.025 is so little it literally does nothing. There is no kick. After a lot of testing, the number is balanced to be able to charge and then fire calmly. Spamming as fast as you can will overheat within a few shots, but a calm follow up will not.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Minty Essence
DUST University
Ivy League
2
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Posted - 2015.09.25 03:22:00 -
[334] - Quote
Goddamit!
>Just started the game a few weeks ago
>Go all out on Amarr Assault because Amarr Victor
>Just unlocked the Vizam Scrambler Rifle today
>See this... |
XxBlazikenxX
Ancient Exiles.
2
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Posted - 2015.09.25 03:23:00 -
[335] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:just clearing up some things
Commando will hit for be 270, after the reduction to melee damage myofibs, should be comparable as before. That was not intended to be reduced.
Gallente Assault ROF bonus only applies to Assault Rifles (the whole family) and is now 3% per level, for a 15% total.
I hear the nade concerns, and we will see how it pans out.
I stand fully by the whole HAV/AV reasoning in the OP. Assault Swarm launchers are still on the table for being an Anti Air platform.
The plan for Melee was to be effective, especially on the Weak Spots but the code for Melee Damage vs Nova Knives is a bit blurred, looking into it. I will also share a few screenshots on the weak spots.
People who complain about Scrambler Hipfire kick going from 0.025 to 0.1 as "OMG 400% nerf" need to play the game. This is intended to stop spam and nothing else. Currently the 0.025 is so little it literally does nothing. There is no kick. After a lot of testing, the number is balanced to be able to charge and then fire calmly. Spamming as fast as you can will overheat within a few shots, but a calm follow up will not.
Praise the heavens it's senpai Rattati!!!!
Pl0x notice me senpai 
AVERT YOUR EYES!
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XxBlazikenxX
Ancient Exiles.
2
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Posted - 2015.09.25 03:24:00 -
[336] - Quote
Minty Essence wrote:Goddamit!
>Just started the game a few weeks ago
>Go all out on Amarr Assault because Amarr Victor
>Just unlocked the Vizam Scrambler Rifle today
>See this...
Don't worry, it will still be effective at hip fire at least.
AVERT YOUR EYES!
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Derrith Erador
Fatal Absolution
3
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Posted - 2015.09.25 03:25:00 -
[337] - Quote
Derrith Erador wrote:Well, I hate to bring up old crap, but seeing as I'm shameless and the Devs seem to finally be showing the ADS some love, I may as well ask.
Since hotfix delta, we had our ROF reduced significantly to 3%. In a recent PC, I finally caved and decided to try a rocket on an incubus. I have Python and incubus maxed out, and noticed no ROF difference.
This wouldn't be so frustrating if the SP required to get it maxed out wasn't so monumentally high. My question is will there be any plans to make the SP we pilots sunk into these skills worth it? Perhaps an added minor benefit, or a slightly better ROF?
A lot of pilots would appreciate more knowledge on this. Originally it's on page 5.
99% of what Derrith says is stupidity. -D3lta Blitzkrieg
Oh yeah?! Well, I love redheads.
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Minty Essence
DUST University
Ivy League
2
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Posted - 2015.09.25 03:26:00 -
[338] - Quote
XxBlazikenxX wrote:Minty Essence wrote:Goddamit!
>Just started the game a few weeks ago
>Go all out on Amarr Assault because Amarr Victor
>Just unlocked the Vizam Scrambler Rifle today
>See this... Don't worry, it will still be effective at hip fire at least.
I hope so, will just make those nasty 1v1 situations much harder as I won't be able to land enough shots to kill without overheating. Think I'll skill up SMGs to get the strong armour damage so I can swap out once the shields are broken. |
XxBlazikenxX
Ancient Exiles.
2
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Posted - 2015.09.25 03:27:00 -
[339] - Quote
Minty Essence wrote:XxBlazikenxX wrote:Minty Essence wrote:Goddamit!
>Just started the game a few weeks ago
>Go all out on Amarr Assault because Amarr Victor
>Just unlocked the Vizam Scrambler Rifle today
>See this... Don't worry, it will still be effective at hip fire at least. I hope so, will just make those nasty 1v1 situations much harder as I won't be able to land enough shots to kill without overheating. Think I'll skill up SMGs to get the strong armour damage so I can swap out once the shields are broken.
Good idea, lower the targets health as low as possible then spray him a little bit with the smg. Works 90% of the time.
AVERT YOUR EYES!
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.09.25 03:31:00 -
[340] - Quote
RedPencil wrote:Rising the cost of swarm and sp require isn't a problem at all as I already post in the earlier post. But before you compare that cost, would it be fare to ask Rat to show the lost number of both side first?
Certainly, I'd be very interested in those stats. But as I mentioned, would Rattati be making these changes if he felt that the ADS was overpowered vs Swarms? We've had ample examples of Rattati's modus operandi: find out what is under/over performing and change it and/or the things affecting it to bring it up/knock it down to par.
RedPencil wrote:Surrounding awareness is require in any role. ADS may encounter invisible swarm, but you also have Hardener and AFB to protect and bring you out. What about swarmer? What do they have?
Swarmer has cover. Dropships can have cover, but aerial cover is decidedly lacking, for the most part, and in an engagement between a Swarmer and an ADS the ADS will rarely ever be concealed - partly, as in a firefight - like a Swarmer can/will be. Then consider that a small missile has a 2.5m radius (that's a little bit larger than a Compact Nanohive's AOE, roughly) and must impact to not hit the cover, just like infantry vs infantry fire must. A Swarm does need to be concerned by cover, but in practice an ADS can utilise cover not nearly to the same degree as an infantrymerc can - that's perfectly reasonable, the issue stems from the complete lack of ability to avoid being hit by Swarms. You can dodge an FG blast with radical movement or good timing, but nothing short of outright flight (as in running away) or hugging a building closer than a lover will avoid a volley of Swarms.
RedPencil wrote:"A box that takes up half your screen do all of the work" How about we convert assault swarm to work as missile turrets?
I'm not against the idea, but I can't see converting Assault Swarms only being of any use - people would just use regular Swarms because they'd be better by a million miles. Read the thread I linked to in my last post; Juno's idea there has a lot of merit by keeping some of the core aspects of the Swarm (the lock-on element) without entirely removing aim from the equation.
RedPencil wrote:Have you considering things or roles you could do with ADS compare to swarmer or AV player?
Have you considering firepower between those two?
Such as, outright slaying and transportation? Because that's pretty much it. and the transportation element is so poorly handled in Dust it's ridiculous.
And are you referring to the difference in firepower? Because in an anti-vehicle capacity the Swarms are a notch above the ADS, while the ADS has a huge advantage vs infantry (assuming non-Commando and Small Missiles.)
What's your point? The ADS is a vehicle and as such possesses relatively high firepower for an individual whereas the Swarm is specifically sacrificing AP firepower for AV potential.
RedPencil wrote:With 16 (1ADS + 15 mercs) vs 16 (2-4 AV + 12-14 mercs), what is the odds of team win?
Fact, It is next to impossible for AV to 1-1 ADS and beat it.
That is a ridiculous equation: there are far too many factors to account for such as what kind of rooftops are the available, what kind of aerial obstructions there are to hide behind/get in the way and what kind of access the ADS has to the main fighting areas. Is it in the Caldari Production Facility? If yes then the ADSs mobility is vastly reduced making it a huge and easy target for AV, simultaneously the CPF gives a lot of cover for infantry to use. Or are we in an open field, where the ADS has far more power? Your question is ridiculously simplistic and impossible to answer.
As for the second statement, I find it lacking in definition: by 'beat' do you mean destroy? Do you mean get more WP than? Do you mean drive it off without killing anyone/many? By some metrics the AV will almost always win: a Swarm will almost always drive an ADS away before it can do much, but in a wide area and ADS will often get a kill or two before being killed. Again, you lack sufficient definition to provide precise answers to, and the question is pretty simplistic - there are many factors that go into a one-on-one that can massively change the outcome: is there cover for either side; is there a small platform for the Swarmer to stand on to make it harder for the ADS to splash them; is there obscuring terrain to make Swarms impact upon?
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.09.25 03:32:00 -
[341] - Quote
RedPencil wrote:If you think that we may not understand the other's issues, then we need a solid evident to show and prove the current state before claim to nerf something.
To Be honest, Rat should explain and show a solid number to the community.
I wholeheartedly agree. That said, as I said above, I do feel that we know how Rattati operates to extrapolate that he is sufficiently satisfied with the notion that Swarms are overpowered vs ADSs, hence why he said as much in his OP:
CCP Rattati wrote:3.Dropships are ok, Caldari need a PG buff (not in this hotfix) but Swarms are too strong
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Soraya Xel
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
6
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Posted - 2015.09.25 03:36:00 -
[342] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:ADSs being OP is entirely debatable. What constitutes being OP? KDR? ISK destroyed per death?
The problem is, it was ALL OF THE ABOVE before the nerf. ADS was incredibly ISK efficient. I'm willing to bet it still is, but the only way we'll know is if Rattati decides to share the numbers.
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:I just find that Soraya is unnecessarily militant about V/AV changes, and others like the one I was responding to earlier seem to feel that most ADS pilots want a free ride, which isn't the case.
It's hard to not think pilots just want a free ride when Judge thought a KDR of 50 was "about right", and most of the dropship pilots in the community SUPPORTED HIM! And from what I've seen, the ADS is the most overpowered class in the entire game, and not enough has been done. So when people are pushing buffs for the ADS, I do feel that that is rightly insane.
But I'm not even all that picky. I am okay with the turning radius change. That's fine, I'm glad there's actual gameplay potential in evading swarms. I'm okay with, as I mentioned, even drastically lowering the distance swarms chase you. From 400m down to less than 300m, so that if you're running from swarms, you can reasonably do so. But the lock-on range is pitifully low, I have to spend a minute just trying to find a spot where I can actually lock a dropship, but it moves two seconds later, and then I can't do jack again, much less fire a second volley if I got one off at all, the proposed will now bring it to HALF the range of the forge gun, and the forge gun was, to begin with, a far superior weapon.
I don't even understand why dropship pilots are so unreasonably militant about swarms, and unwilling to recognize that the only time they get killed by swarms, is when they were getting forge gunned at the same time. The arguments around swarms are complete nonsense, and I feel that yeah, dropships are just trying to prevent another viable aerial AV method from existing.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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XxBlazikenxX
Ancient Exiles.
2
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Posted - 2015.09.25 03:38:00 -
[343] - Quote
I just completely ignored everything you said after you stated "ADSs are incredibly isk efficient"
AVERT YOUR EYES!
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Devadander
Woodgrain Atari
733
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Posted - 2015.09.25 03:39:00 -
[344] - Quote
XxBlazikenxX wrote:I just completely ignored everything you said after you stated "ADSs are incredibly isk efficient"
^
Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå
Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.09.25 03:43:00 -
[345] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Forge Gun is supposed to be the absolute best AV weapon. Shouldn't swarms, which have no ability to damage infantry at all, be the absolute best AV weapon?
Allow me to be abundantly clear as the token AV guy on the CPM on my position.
It will be a cold day in hell before I support making a self-guiding, lock-on, fire-and-forget weapon superior to every other weapon in it's class regardless of any real or perceived limitation.
It is simply not going to happen.
I will gleefully support making the plasma cannon or even a flaylock pistol being so before i will support making a fire and forget lock on weapon "best in class."
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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XxBlazikenxX
Ancient Exiles.
2
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Posted - 2015.09.25 03:44:00 -
[346] - Quote
Soraya, the type of nerf you are suggesting is literally the equivalent of giving logis the health of scouts, making heavies only carry two sidearms, or making so nanohives only replenish one clip.
There's a nerf, and then there's this, you completely want the ADS to be almost unviable in any situation (which it already almost is).
AVERT YOUR EYES!
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Vell0cet
OSG Planetary Operations
3
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Posted - 2015.09.25 03:47:00 -
[347] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:
Gallente Assault ROF bonus only applies to Assault Rifles (the whole family) and is now 3% per level, for a 15% total.
I'm glad the Gallente Assault is finally getting a great bonus. Generally I'm against stuff that lowers the TTK (Amarr/Minmatar Assault bonuses were about extending the time before overheating/reloading and didn't affect TTK), but 15% seems pretty reasonable, especially since blasters have the gimped range and really should be the most lethal of the AR's up close. As always, I'm sure you''re going to keep a close eye on the stats. I have faith in your methods--they've worked well in the past.
I'm glad to see that shields are getting some attention. I think having both styles of tanking being viable and fun is critical to get right. Any chance for a shield rep tool? It's important to establish parity/balance.
Lastly, I'd love to see resistance modules for shields and armor. You could fit to resist a specific damage type, or fit a rainbow resist that would cover all resistances for a much smaller amount. This would allow players to build fits that counter specific threats and could reduce any future FOTM issues.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Daddrobit
You Can Call Me Daddy
1
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Posted - 2015.09.25 03:51:00 -
[348] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:just clearing up some things
Gallente Assault ROF bonus only applies to Assault Rifles (the whole family) and is now 3% per level, for a 15% total.
Holy ****, that was supposed to be a 25% increase at level 5?
Oh yes....
Even at 15% I'm getting 3X more than I figured was reasonable. So the new DPS increases will look as the following.
~62 for basic
~65 for advanced
~68 for proto
~70 for krins
~79 for balacs
~84 for kalentes
Hnggggggggg....
I may plug my PS3 back in for this.
O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
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Cat Merc
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
18
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Posted - 2015.09.25 04:03:00 -
[349] - Quote
Daddrobit wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:just clearing up some things
Gallente Assault ROF bonus only applies to Assault Rifles (the whole family) and is now 3% per level, for a 15% total.
I may plug my PS3 back in for this.
This is going to be hilarious.
I give it two weeks before it gets nerfed.
Ripley Riley:
> Post Hotfix Foxour Gallente Assault:
> DakkadakkadakkadakkaFREEDOMdakkadakka
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.09.25 04:09:00 -
[350] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:The problem is, it was ALL OF THE ABOVE before the nerf. ADS was incredibly ISK efficient. I'm willing to bet it still is, but the only way we'll know is if Rattati decides to share the numbers.
t's hard to not think pilots just want a free ride when Judge thought a KDR of 50 was "about right", and most of the dropship pilots in the community SUPPORTED HIM! And from what I've seen, the ADS is the most overpowered class in the entire game, and not enough has been done. So when people are pushing buffs for the ADS, I do feel that that is rightly insane.
Except that Judge wasn't talking about a 50KDR being 'fine', it was that the only way to remain ISK positive was to have a 50KDR (because at the time they cost so much more): it was not that a 50KDR is fine for ADS and for no one else, it was that that was the benchmark for ADS being a self-sustaining role like any other.
Soraya Xel wrote:But I'm not even all that picky. I am okay with the turning radius change. That's fine, I'm glad there's actual gameplay potential in evading swarms. I'm okay with, as I mentioned, even drastically lowering the distance swarms chase you. From 400m down to less than 300m, so that if you're running from swarms, you can reasonably do so. But the lock-on range is pitifully low, I have to spend a minute just trying to find a spot where I can actually lock a dropship, but it moves two seconds later, and then I can't do jack again, much less fire a second volley if I got one off at all, the proposed will now bring it to HALF the range of the forge gun, and the forge gun was, to begin with, a far superior weapon.
I still remember when Swarms locked on at 400m, it was ridiculous. The range was reduced to 175m so that they couldn't affect entire maps from anywhere. I do, occasionally (used to be more often), still use Swarms and the 175 is fine for a standard approaching engagement (ie, one where you're going to a point) but it's hard to use incidentally which to me seems not unreasonable. It can seriously affect a local area, but is a short ranged/far reaching tool rather than the old long ranged/far reaching tool it used to be.
I don't disagree with the notion of a range buff, but I do feel strongly about it bring such a simple weapon to wield.
Soraya Xel wrote:I don't even understand why dropship pilots are so unreasonably militant about swarms, and unwilling to recognize that the only time they get killed by swarms, is when they were getting forge gunned at the same time. The arguments around swarms are complete nonsense, and I feel that yeah, dropships are just trying to prevent another viable aerial AV method from existing.
I've said it before that I'm, personally, fine with being shot down and with that situation arising more because of changes. But the biggest issue I have, and that I believe most ADS pilots have, with Swarms is the enormous gal in effort that they require to operate effectively.
A Forge Gun can reach further (though at ranges beyond a Swarm's lock-on it becomes far harder to land sustained hits on any vehicle) and hit harder per shot, but the Forge Gun sacrifices movement speed, requires a specific role and cannot be supported by other roles' benefits (the second light of a Commando; the speed and infantry-evading of the Scout, etc.)
A Swarm can be used on, literally, any suit in the game and requires minimal effort to reap a fairly large effect. The ADS is not an easy vehicle to pilot - as far as any are easy - and far harder to get effective use out of compared to the incredibly simple and easy usage of the Swarm that then cannot be evaded except by total flight from the AO or killing the wielder. I've linked to Juno's thread a million times: a Swarm that operates like that would be totally fine by me, even with the necessary speed and damage changes that would need to accompany it. Why? Because it has substantial and significant elements of skill in its operation that the current version of Swarm Launchers simply does not.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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zzZaXxx
XxAMBUSH FTWxX
785
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Posted - 2015.09.25 04:23:00 -
[351] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Asad Thahab-Jabal wrote:Rattati,
Is the new Gallente and Caldari dropsuit command bonuses replacing the current bonuses?
Or are they in addition to the current bonuses? in addition
For assault??? OMG!!!!! Damn you Rattati you're gonna make me respec back into Gallente Assault and AR!! And Magsec!!!
Cal Assault, my favorite suit, is gonna BEAST!!!
Will the Ion Pistol benefit from the new bonus? Please say yes! It needs the exact same help ARs do. OMG I'd LOVE for the Ion Pistol to be good!! It's really my favorite weapon in the game just aesthetic and feel wise. |
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
26
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Posted - 2015.09.25 04:25:00 -
[352] - Quote
Gallente HAV Weak Spot
Caldari HAV Weak Spot
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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XxBlazikenxX
Ancient Exiles.
2
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Posted - 2015.09.25 04:27:00 -
[353] - Quote
Rattati, quick question, will the 100% nova knife efficiency apply to installations as well? Or only vehicles?
AVERT YOUR EYES!
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.25 04:27:00 -
[354] - Quote
I feel like that is just True's version of ****.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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XxBlazikenxX
Ancient Exiles.
2
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Posted - 2015.09.25 04:28:00 -
[355] - Quote
Also, don't the HAVs also have weakspots on the sides too?
AVERT YOUR EYES!
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RedPencil
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
222
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Posted - 2015.09.25 04:29:00 -
[356] - Quote
Since Rat still stand on AV is OP and nothing will change his mind. I just gonna put my swarm down and walk away even though I still disagree.
Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M
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XxBlazikenxX
Ancient Exiles.
2
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Posted - 2015.09.25 04:29:00 -
[357] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:I feel like that is just True's version of pornography.
Nah, his would be a picture of the Empress doing something not so nice to a minmatar slave.
AVERT YOUR EYES!
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Commander Noctus
Gallente Loyalist
278
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Posted - 2015.09.25 04:33:00 -
[358] - Quote
XxBlazikenxX wrote:One Eyed King wrote:I feel like that is just True's version of pornography. Nah, his would be a picture of the Empress doing something not so nice to a minmatar slave.
Too bad she's space dust now.
Gallente User since Jan. 28th, 2013. Touched on every Gallente role since.
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Cat Merc
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
18
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Posted - 2015.09.25 04:36:00 -
[359] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:I feel like that is just True's version of pornography.
So would Amarr HAV's count as German dungeon porn?
Ripley Riley:
> Post Hotfix Foxour Gallente Assault:
> DakkadakkadakkadakkaFREEDOMdakkadakka
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XxBlazikenxX
Ancient Exiles.
2
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Posted - 2015.09.25 04:38:00 -
[360] - Quote
inb4 Ratman deletes all our posts
AVERT YOUR EYES!
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