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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.24 16:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:please read the whole thing. Overall a massive buff for dedicated AV, both infantry and vehicle. I did read the whole thing. Can you spell out the part where Swarms were buffed? If the damage was buffed in a way I'm not realizing, can you explain how that's supposed to help when I have half the range of a forge gun, and can't really hit anything I want to fire at anyhow? CCP Rattati wrote:Forge Gun is supposed to be the absolute best AV weapon. Shouldn't swarms, which have no ability to damage infantry at all, be the absolute best AV weapon? Logically, my ability to punt infantry suits with the forge means it's superior to swarms in multiple ways. Does the forge have tracking? the forge is a heavy weapon with loads of drawbacks and therefore packs the highest punch.
Soraya Xel wrote:
Can you spell out .
Its amazing to think you were on the CPM with that attitude.
Its even more amazing to think you want a swarm launcher buff.
Its clear to see where any impasse was coming from regarding player feedback on the derpship and your own personal opinion.
To be clear:
Swarms are still the highest DPS AV weapon, with the exception of a forge round in the fuel cell.
Swarm flight time, distance and duration have not changed.
Swarm lock on time is the same.
Beacons can still lock on at 200m.
Any swarms fired will still travel 400m. Thats 100m farther than the forge gun.
Changes mean 25 meter reduced lock on. Thats not bad seeing as dropships can only engage effectivly from about 100 m.or less.
With the new weakpoint nerf (or as i see it tactical gameplay rewards) on tanks maybe I have chance to kill a fleeing tank from the air, or with a well placed mass driver.
Mass Drivers are now very dangerous AV and Anti Infantry. That gives the minmatar commando its own AV weapon and swarms are returned, rightfully, to the Caldari.
Dropsuit shiled buffs mean taking on caldari commando from the air is going to be very difficult.
Overall much more general protection for the infantry against pilots, and pilot "buffs" are mereley being able to out turn a swarm or two.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.24 21:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Let's be clear, nobody's "forgetting" anything. Dropship pilots are conveniently leaving out realities that help ensure they're OP, but that's not any different than usual.
You need a 250m range in order to be able to engage at 150m. Because if a swarm launcher is engaging at maximum range, then the dropship pilot can fly out of lock range too quickly to fire enough swarms to even do significant damage.
I need 250m range so that I know when I fire at 150m, I might be able to get a couple shots off before dropships buzz out of range.
Now, if you're worried about redlining, and need to keep the range short: We can just half the speed of dropships instead. But I think the range is a much better solution.
You want
- 250m lock range
- 275m swarm travel distance
- Dropship speed reduced by 50% from 50 m/s to 25 m/s
- Swarm turn radius reduced
The reasons you give:
- Current 175m lock range is not enogh to hit dropships.
- You want the ability to shoot 250m but only so you can shoot at 150m
- You die in your AV suit
- Swarms are inaccurate
- Swarms are slower than dropships
- You have to be very close to a dropship to engage
Refutation:
- Current range is very sufficient to hit dropships. Otherwise nobody would touch swarms, and Rattati would be asking why they are unpopular and buff them accordingly. He's done that with rifles, and pretty much any unpopular item. Why would he reverse course on this?
- You want to shoot at 150 m, you can. Saying that 150m is not enough to shoot dropships but you want to shoot at 150m is a contradiction.
- You want to reduce swarm range, which makes it far easier for dropships to escape.
- So what if you die in your AV suit? You ignore the infantry around you at your own peril. To mitigate that risk, these are commando bonuses and not assault bonues is becausse commandos have a light weapon as backup and the HP of a heavy suit.
- Swarms can do things no forge gunner can dream of. Its slightly obvious, that an A.I. tracking missile is more accurate than a projectile but here is a video curtesy of Juno Tristan.
- You are also fine with a dropship out manuevering swarms. Which, if you claim that swarms currently cannot hit dropships, but you think its fine for swarms to miss dropships is another contradiction.
- In the current build Swarms are 10m/s faster than drophips. 60 m/s vs a dropship's 50 m/s. Nothing more to say here, its a fact, not an opinion. According to you swarms should be 35 m/s fater would render every thing about being able to counter swarms useless.
All this comes out in a hissy fit over 25 m range.
*sigh.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.24 21:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:
I never actually indicated I wanted dropship speed cut in half.
Soraya Xel wrote:
Now, if you're worried about redlining, and need to keep the range short: We can just half the speed of dropships instead. But I think the range is a much better solution.
You can't make this stuff up. 
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.24 22:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:
I never actually indicated I wanted dropship speed cut in half.
Soraya Xel wrote:
Now, if you're worried about redlining, and need to keep the range short: We can just half the speed of dropships instead. But I think the range is a much better solution.
You can't make this stuff up. My six year old little sister is better able to comprehend reading and context than you are. My God.
Good for her :)
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.25 15:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Except that Judge wasn't talking about a 50KDR being 'fine', it was that the only way to remain ISK positive was to have a 50KDR (because at the time they cost so much more): it was not that a 50KDR is fine for ADS and for no one else, it was that that was the benchmark for ADS being a self-sustaining role like any other. Also complete bull, because at 50 KDR average, Judge made a killing off every derpship he flew. Most. Profitable. Fit. Ever.
Lucky for you soraya, I have Judge as a contact. His life time KD is 2.38.
that's pretty freaking far from 50.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.25 20:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Welp, the ADS argument just hit full Tier 7 on the argument pyramid.Quit the name calling and address real issues: -ADS can't mitigate swarm damage through skilled flying (unlike forges) -Swarms take little player-skill to use effectively (unlike forges forges) -Rendering + small, indistinguishable targets assures swarms always get the first hit (unless taken by surprise and a lucky guess from the ADS) -Invisible swarms make retaliation in an ADS impossible and making adjustments in flying space ambiguous. -Minmando players who skilled it for the swarm bonus are getting screwed over; there's no explicit reason why the bonus changed suits other than lore (which is pretty poor if you ask me, see Min scouts and NKs) -A single swarmer will have trouble killing a properly flown and fitted ADS (aside: this is mainly due to ADS flying away, not inability to damage) -Multiple AV stacks much more effectively than multiple ADSs/ vehicles Etc.
If I may, Swarms vs ADS is pretty complex web. Pull one string too hard and its easy for it all to come undone. But I prefer more rational debates than the ad hominem attacks soraya is chucking about left, right, and center.
A normal rational, thought process should be demonstrating why 150m rather than 175m spells the end of swarms.
The same way normal, rational players demonstrated that the gallente buff of 25% ROF might be too high, so Rattati dropped it down to 15%.
Instead a good half of what looked to be a decent hotfix thread has been massively derailed by wild attacks and demands placed on Devs and players alike by one person, who is only armed with a few personal opinons, although contradictory in nature, is still based on a build replaced 12 months ago.
Instead of all of this doomsday foretelling of what would happen if swarms lost 25m of lock on range, i would have expected people to revolt about swarms will now miss a hard manuevering, yank and bank dropship.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.26 09:05:00 -
[7] - Quote
Having to run 25m closer to an HAV or DS puts you 25m closer to the optimal range of RR and ScR. Infantry is the reason rational people like myself do not like the range nerf on swarms.[/quote]
I am going to use proto fits, because they have the ranges and sliders that tell you what damage any given weapon does at what range.
Lets take a look at the Opimal ranges and damages of both
A Rail Rfile is 75m, effective range is 100m, We are concerned with 150m and Prototype stats.
Damage 75m : 397 base DPS, per round 51.70
Damage 100m: 139.19 base DPS, per round does 18.09
Damage at 150m: 92.8 base DPS, per round does 12.06 damage.
vs shields 10.86
Scrambler rifle:
Damage 75m : 715 base DPS, per round 71.5
Damage 100m: 243.75 base DPS, per round does 24.38
Damage at 150m: 92.8 base DPS, per round does 16.25 damage.
vs shields 22.43
At 150, sure you can be hit and take damage.
Compared to swarm fits:
412 (base shield) Minandos, at 150m Kalikiota RR needs 37.75 consecutive hits to break your shields,
Viziam needs 18.36
Calmandos (500 base shield) Kalikioota RR needs 46 consecutive hits to break shields Viziam needs 22.2 consecutive hits to break shields.
Whitout counting armor, both prototype weapons have to stop to either reload or deal with overheat. Thats if they hit you with every single shot they fire from 150m. Thats plenty of warning to stop looking at the sky.
At 150m, I think you are going to be alright from the troops. If anything I would be more worried about HAVs, who can sit still, take punishment and thier gunners have time to sight you. But only slightly worried.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.26 21:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote:Booby Tuesdays wrote:
Having to run 25m closer to an HAV or DS puts you 25m closer to the optimal range of RR and ScR. Infantry is the reason rational people like myself do not like the range nerf on swarms.
I am going to use proto fits, because they have the ranges and sliders that tell you what damage any given weapon does at what range. Lets take a look at the Opimal ranges and damages of both A Rail Rfile is 75m, effective range is 100m, We are concerned with 150m and Prototype stats. Damage 75m : 397 base DPS, per round 51.70 Damage 100m: 139.19 base DPS, per round does 18.09 Damage at 150m: 92.8 base DPS, per round does 12.06 damage. vs shields 10.86 Scrambler rifle: Damage 75m : 715 base DPS, per round 71.5 Damage 100m: 243.75 base DPS, per round does 24.38 Damage at 150m: 92.8 base DPS, per round does 16.25 damage. vs shields 22.43 At 150, sure you can be hit and take damage. Compared to swarm fits: 412 (base shield) Minandos, at 150m Kalikiota RR needs 37.75 consecutive hits to break your shields, Viziam needs 18.36 Calmandos (500 base shield) Kalikioota RR needs 46 consecutive hits to break shields Viziam needs 22.2 consecutive hits to break shields. Whitout counting armor, both prototype weapons have to stop to either reload or deal with overheat. Thats if they hit you with every single shot they fire from 150m. Thats plenty of warning to stop looking at the sky. At 150m, I think you are going to be alright from the troops. If anything I would be more worried about HAVs, who can sit still, take punishment and thier gunners have time to sight you. But only slightly worried. I completely agree. That also wasn't the point I was trying to make. Let's say we're on the Bridge Map. The enemy is pushing across the bridge, aided by a red line rail tank, and a blaster tank on the far side of the bridge. The tanks may be within my new 150m range, but his infantry buddies are much closer than that. The more I fall back to avoid infantry, the worse my line of sight is on either vehicle. You would have to be in pretty ideal conditions to just sit back at 150m and fire off swarms. That would be more of a rooftop camper concern than a swarmer on the ground, trying to keep a tank back while his teammates fight off infantry. Does that make more sense? I hate trying to convey things via text sometimes...
yeah man those concerns totally make sense. ground swarming in situation like that is pretty dicey, and you have to keep your rifle ready when troops are close.
that being said, 175m, or 150m, or 20th, you still have to be the judge of what's a priority : infantry at close range or tanks at long range. It doesn't matter if you have 400m range swarms if the enemy troops are within 75m and the tank is at 400m. you are still picking the tank as the priority when it's not the closest threat, and leaving your self open to be shot.
This of course applies to ground swarming. rooftop swarming, it frankly doesn't matter because you have effectivley sealed off all access to the roof without suiciding a dropship for 150m radius, or a diameter of 300m, safe to most all infantry except snipers. and that's where the range nerf starts to sound more reasonable. From a rooftop swamper shutting down 350m diameter to a 300m one seems fine to me.
even if you are the most dedicated ground swamper that doesn't mean roof top swarming does not need to be taken into account when looking at the overall picture.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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