Either that or these pilots need to be locked into the vehicle if their HP drops below a certain point.

Yeah, I'm a little disappointed Judge's followers seem to be back alive and well trying to undo the hard work of CPM1.

Dear poor ADS, please open your narrow minded for once. Hopefully, you would see the world from a difference perspective.

some valid points here. But my ads is still op, and av loses more than me before they take me out. It's not so bad as you make it seem. #foreverpython
Also a fully fit python is like 100 - 150k more than a minmando please you're giving ads pilots a bad name. Stop.

Rising the cost of swarm and sp require isn't a problem at all as I already post in the earlier post. But before you compare that cost, would it be fare to ask Rat to show the lost number of both side first?

Surrounding awareness is require in any role. ADS may encounter invisible swarm, but you also have Hardener and AFB to protect and bring you out. What about swarmer? What do they have?

"A box that takes up half your screen do all of the work" How about we convert assault swarm to work as missile turrets?

Have you considering things or roles you could do with ADS compare to swarmer or AV player?
Have you considering firepower between those two?

With 16 (1ADS + 15 mercs) vs 16 (2-4 AV + 12-14 mercs), what is the odds of team win?

Fact, It is next to impossible for AV to 1-1 ADS and beat it.

If you think that we may not understand the other's issues, then we need a solid evident to show and prove the current state before claim to nerf something.

To Be honest, Rat should explain and show a solid number to the community.

3.Dropships are ok, Caldari need a PG buff (not in this hotfix) but Swarms are too strong

The problem is, it was ALL OF THE ABOVE before the nerf. ADS was incredibly ISK efficient. I'm willing to bet it still is, but the only way we'll know is if Rattati decides to share the numbers.

t's hard to not think pilots just want a free ride when Judge thought a KDR of 50 was "about right", and most of the dropship pilots in the community SUPPORTED HIM! And from what I've seen, the ADS is the most overpowered class in the entire game, and not enough has been done. So when people are pushing buffs for the ADS, I do feel that that is rightly insane.

But I'm not even all that picky. I am okay with the turning radius change. That's fine, I'm glad there's actual gameplay potential in evading swarms. I'm okay with, as I mentioned, even drastically lowering the distance swarms chase you. From 400m down to less than 300m, so that if you're running from swarms, you can reasonably do so. But the lock-on range is pitifully low, I have to spend a minute just trying to find a spot where I can actually lock a dropship, but it moves two seconds later, and then I can't do jack again, much less fire a second volley if I got one off at all, the proposed will now bring it to HALF the range of the forge gun, and the forge gun was, to begin with, a far superior weapon.

I don't even understand why dropship pilots are so unreasonably militant about swarms, and unwilling to recognize that the only time they get killed by swarms, is when they were getting forge gunned at the same time. The arguments around swarms are complete nonsense, and I feel that yeah, dropships are just trying to prevent another viable aerial AV method from existing.

Also complete bull, because at 50 KDR average, Judge made a killing off every derpship he flew. Most. Profitable. Fit. Ever.

I stopped reading at double hardened python lmao. Gg

Which was extremely painless and easy for ADS pilots to reliably do, and then some. Because ADSes rarely ever died.

But the ADS was always reliably OP as all get out.

I get that you guys still whined just as loud before, but you're still horrifically spoiled brats about how the ADS performed, but yes, it was that awesome for you.

As a player who was around in 1.6 and 1.7, I share Soraya's concern about OP vehicles that farm infantry at a rate of 25-50 KDR. Anyone who played infantry back then and who tried to fulfill the AV role knows how frustrating and futile it was.

Maybe the pendulum went too far when swarms were buffed and vehicles were nerfed, but recent releases have (IMO) struck a pretty good balance where a single AV player can not necessarily kill a pilot but can at least drive them away for a minute or two. I'm not sure why this is not considered as being balanced.

As for ADS specifically, it's important to keep in mind the following when trying to balance them.

1. Swarms are the only real viable option for ADS suppression.
- A forge gun can be used with partial success at short range, (75 meters or less) but is useless at a distance. Add the fact that equiping a forge gun makes an AV player canon foder to infantry and the returns quickly become untenable.
- The plasma canon is very difficult to use even at a close range against dropships.

2. Denying access to an area is not equivalent to killing. I actually think that the ability to deny access to specific area to a vehicle by one AV player is perfectly balanced. This protects pilots from a huge ISK loss and protects infantry from being farmed. It is much more balanced than requiring multiple players to deal with a single player using a vehicle.

3. The primary critetria to determine balance needs to be KDR. It cannot be ISK as ISK has no bearing on the outcome of a specific game.

That said, I'm not necessarily against the proposed changes but I am concerned about the opinions of vehicles pilots who believe that their ISK investment entitles them to farm opponents. Your ISK investment allows you to affect the outcome of the battle by giving you access to parts of the map that no one else can use, by giving you greater mobility and by giving you invulnerability to small arms fire. It should not give you a disproportionately higher KDR by virtue of spending more isk.

In the current setup, I am enjoying the Python as it is.. pay attention to your HP and AV fire and you can be pretty much invincible until the gank happens, I don't pity too many saying AD underperform.. when the reality is, performance is based on what you do with it.. Avoid AV and fly smart, you'll do well.. fly into an AV hotzone.. goodbye ADS..

which is why swarms are also included in the weak spot increase for HAVs

I am worried about gunlogis with the Av changes happing, the only advantage the gunlogi has when close to infantry was that small arms would not break its shield regen and would require some actual Av weapons also people going round punching vehicles is completely a stupid idea. I get that you could do actual damage to one but how do you destroy a metal vehicle with your fists :/ and that it would most likely break your hands

I wish I could actual fit one on my gunlogi, as they cost way to much space to actually fit on, just like the dispersion stabilizer

To balance the rail rifle's poor performance in CQB (should it be implemented this way), the Caldari Assault should also get a fitting bonus to Assault Rifles, giving it a close quarters option while only retaining bonuses for the rail rifle. I also believe the inverse should be the case for the Gallente Assault..

While your statement is accurate, you misunderstand my intentions and are also going on the assumption that people are only going to use the MagSec, when the Bolt Pistol and the Ion Pistol exist as well. The point of my recommendation is both the Gallente and Caldari Assault are Hybrid Weapon platforms, and as such should receive fitting bonuses to all hybrid weapons, and that's it. It is no different than it already is, but in this circumstance its going on the premise that Ratatti did what needed to be done and limited the assault fitting bonus to racial weapons, which you'd see if you actually read the whole post.

Considering they no doubt have stacking penalties, it would be roughly 1.6 - 1.8 seconds shaved off. So about 1.4 - 1.6 to start regen with 2.

Question: Did Ratatti buff small turrets to do full damage vs. HAV's?

A basic swarm is going to struggle to kill any vehicle aside from a LAV.

Also if he's fitting proto turrets before fitting tank to actually survive, he is doing it so wrong. You can get a dropship to survive a fair bit of punishment but basic swarms are never killing a dropship unless the pilot just sits there.

Dropships need some love but if you are getting killed by a basic swarm then you are bad.

I have all swarm skills at five and have been using them for the past 2 years, I know for a fact that a properly fit dropship is never, ever going to worry about basic swarms, 1300 damage is nothing with a 40% hardener and 200+ reps per second. You'll only take 780 damage per volley and by the time all of them have hit, you'll have repped most of it back.

Let's see how the python holds up on paper. I'm genuinely intrigued

Basic damage is 260, so without dmg mods it does and with proficiency 842.4 per volley (with a hardener). Assuming no shields, and say 200 reps per second. First swarm hits, takes around 3 seconds to lock and hit. After the initial hit the dropship will almost be at the third rep cycle and only have taken 242.4 damage overall. If was a shorter travel time of say 2 seconds, it would take 442.4 damage per volley

At the end of all that, the dropship will have taken 1327.2 damage. Add the fact that it's gonna take maybe 3-4 seconds to reload and then fire again, you're looking close to 527-727 damage.

If shields are full, the first volley isn't even breaking the shields.
Even with the extra 20ish% damage the swarm could have with complex damage mods (assuming 3 of them) and warbarge thing it is highly unlikely that the dropship would be destroyed. Cos for one it would easily get out of there and two, it would take about 4 clips to actually kill the damn thing.

Typical python 2555

A hardener, enhanced extend, AB
Or a shield boost, hardener, enhanced extended

Full pro, so 40 sec delay shield boost, 45 sec AB, 45 sec hardener (enhanced nevertheless... Comp is heavy to fit)
this is a "good" fit... One of the most general fits you'll see with the python... Also one of the only effective builds of the python... (well rounded) Other builds, (aka "special fit" to me) are very user specific and used for "special" conditions.

If i gave you one of those fits, it can skew the results that most people would encounter

Either way, yo fit them properly they need PG mods. I think the engineering and electronics skills should provide a small bonus to fitting, maybe 2-3% per level, hell even 5% if it makes things easier for dropships. They really need some love.