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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 178 post(s) |
Soto Gallente
430
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Posted - 2016.01.25 20:44:00 -
[51631] - Quote
Ares 514 wrote:Soto Gallente wrote:One more thing to put across. Basic frames do have use, even in competitive play. For example, the Amarr Heavy Frame, I went 21/6 in ringing for a PC vs EB last night on the undercover letter. You could have easily done that (or better most likely) with a racial suit. Do basic suits even show up in the dropsuit usage rates?
No, they do not. That is probably due to the fact that the creator of the site, like most people, just overlooked basic suits.
Ex-news reporter for The Scope
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Soto Gallente
430
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Posted - 2016.01.25 20:47:00 -
[51632] - Quote
What you are saying in removing Basic dropsuits is akin to saying taking out Dropships since there is no need for them since we have ADSs.
Ex-news reporter for The Scope
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
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Posted - 2016.01.25 20:53:00 -
[51633] - Quote
Ares 514 wrote:Soto Gallente wrote:One more thing to put across. Basic frames do have use, even in competitive play. For example, the Amarr Heavy Frame, I went 21/6 in ringing for a PC vs EB last night on the undercover letter. You could have easily done that (or better most likely) with a racial suit. Do basic suits even show up in the dropsuit usage rates?
IIRC, Gallente and Amarr Basic Heavies showed up in last year's PC kill data. I doubt that this has anything to do with their being a "unique playstyle". They ranked very low.
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Soto Gallente
431
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Posted - 2016.01.25 20:56:00 -
[51634] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Ares 514 wrote:Soto Gallente wrote:One more thing to put across. Basic frames do have use, even in competitive play. For example, the Amarr Heavy Frame, I went 21/6 in ringing for a PC vs EB last night on the undercover letter. You could have easily done that (or better most likely) with a racial suit. Do basic suits even show up in the dropsuit usage rates? IIRC, Gallente and Amarr Basic Heavies showed up in last year's PC kill data. I doubt that this has anything to do with their being a "unique playstyle". They ranked very low.
How could you know if it wasn't due to their unique playstyle unless you actually played as one of those suits?
Ex-news reporter for The Scope
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
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Posted - 2016.01.25 20:58:00 -
[51635] - Quote
Soto Gallente wrote:What you are saying in removing Basic dropsuits is akin to saying taking out Dropships since there is no need for them since we have ADSs.
It isn't the same. Newbros aren't forced to skill into dropships.
Also, balancing 1 or 2 birds is much different than balancing 20+ extra suits. It would impossible given current resources to assign each basic frame a unique and balanced role. After 2000+ pages in this thread, we've yet to agree nail down separate but balanced roles for 4 Scouts.
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
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Posted - 2016.01.25 21:00:00 -
[51636] - Quote
Soto Gallente wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Ares 514 wrote:Soto Gallente wrote:One more thing to put across. Basic frames do have use, even in competitive play. For example, the Amarr Heavy Frame, I went 21/6 in ringing for a PC vs EB last night on the undercover letter. You could have easily done that (or better most likely) with a racial suit. Do basic suits even show up in the dropsuit usage rates? IIRC, Gallente and Amarr Basic Heavies showed up in last year's PC kill data. I doubt that this has anything to do with their being a "unique playstyle". They ranked very low. How could you know if it wasn't due to their unique playstyle unless you actually played as one of those suits?
Because they ranked extremely low. If they were competitive, they would not be underutilized. Think AM Scout.
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
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Posted - 2016.01.25 21:07:00 -
[51637] - Quote
Ares 514 wrote:You know something that really irks me lately? All those damn AUR/LP varients, why not just have a conversion ratio so you can buy with any currency. I hate how I always get AUR versions in salvage/boxes/daily missions. I don't put that **** on my suits since then I can't restock it. Also makes a mess of your assets.
IT IS JUST DUMP.
Wish we "sell back" AUR gear for AUR. The only things worth buying with AUR are Boosters and Respecs. Wouldn't the game if we could earn those things through grinding.
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Soto Gallente
431
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Posted - 2016.01.25 21:08:00 -
[51638] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Soto Gallente wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Ares 514 wrote:Soto Gallente wrote:One more thing to put across. Basic frames do have use, even in competitive play. For example, the Amarr Heavy Frame, I went 21/6 in ringing for a PC vs EB last night on the undercover letter. You could have easily done that (or better most likely) with a racial suit. Do basic suits even show up in the dropsuit usage rates? IIRC, Gallente and Amarr Basic Heavies showed up in last year's PC kill data. I doubt that this has anything to do with their being a "unique playstyle". They ranked very low. How could you know if it wasn't due to their unique playstyle unless you actually played as one of those suits? Because they ranked extremely low. If they were competitive, they would not be underutilized. Think AM Scout.
You are thinking wrong here. Correlation does not equal causation.
Speaking from someone who has been an Amarr Commando, Amarr Sentinel, and an Amarr Heavy Frame before, I can say in confidence (at least for me) that the reason they are underutilized is because they have no racial bonus, but that does not equal not competitive.
Ex-news reporter for The Scope
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
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Posted - 2016.01.25 21:12:00 -
[51639] - Quote
Soto Gallente wrote:
Speaking from someone who has been an Amarr Commando, Amarr Sentinel, and an Amarr Heavy Frame before, I can say in confidence (at least for me) that the reason they are underutilized is because they have no racial bonus, but that does not equal not competitive.
Given the option, why would a merc opt to run a suit without bonuses? In what specific case is he better served by his absence of racial perks?
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Soto Gallente
431
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Posted - 2016.01.25 21:14:00 -
[51640] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Soto Gallente wrote:
Speaking from someone who has been an Amarr Commando, Amarr Sentinel, and an Amarr Heavy Frame before, I can say in confidence (at least for me) that the reason they are underutilized is because they have no racial bonus, but that does not equal not competitive.
Given the option, why would a merc opt to run a suit without bonuses? In what specific case is he better served by his absence of racial perks?
A different playstyle. A unique one. Going above and beyond the masses by using something that is uncommon that serves only a unique set of people with a unique playtyle.
Ex-news reporter for The Scope
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
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Posted - 2016.01.25 21:17:00 -
[51641] - Quote
Soto Gallente wrote:
You are thinking wrong here. Correlation does not equal causation.
There's an explanation behind every pattern. Low usage doesn't happen by accident.
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
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Posted - 2016.01.25 21:19:00 -
[51642] - Quote
Soto Gallente wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Soto Gallente wrote:
Speaking from someone who has been an Amarr Commando, Amarr Sentinel, and an Amarr Heavy Frame before, I can say in confidence (at least for me) that the reason they are underutilized is because they have no racial bonus, but that does not equal not competitive.
Given the option, why would a merc opt to run a suit without bonuses? In what specific case is he better served by his absence of racial perks? A different playstyle. A unique one. Going above and beyond the masses by using something that is uncommon that serves only a unique set of people with a unique playtyle.
If you personally find satisfaction in running around gimped, you could accomplish the same by leaving module slots empty on your racial frames. Or running EWAR loadouts.
Seriously, you're not offering much in the way of reasoning beyond "because I want to be different". That isn't a good enough reason to leave Basic Frames in-game. The game actually benefits from their removal.
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Soto Gallente
431
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Posted - 2016.01.25 21:20:00 -
[51643] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Soto Gallente wrote:
You are thinking wrong here. Correlation does not equal causation.
There's an explanation behind every pattern. Low usage doesn't happen by accident.
Exactly, there is always a reason. But the correlation is not NECESSARILY that reason.
Ex-news reporter for The Scope
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Radiant Pancake3
Celestial Phoenixes
3
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Posted - 2016.01.25 21:25:00 -
[51644] - Quote
Interesting conversations...
All I have for now...
Seeing as i'm barley three dimensional
I may not have that much more later on.
SoulPancake
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
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Posted - 2016.01.25 21:31:00 -
[51645] - Quote
Soto Gallente wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Soto Gallente wrote:
You are thinking wrong here. Correlation does not equal causation.
There's an explanation behind every pattern. Low usage doesn't happen by accident. Exactly, there is always a reason. But the correlation is not NECESSARILY that reason.
Fill in the blank with your very best alternative hypothesis:
Basic Frames are underutilized in competitive play not because they are inferior to alternative options, but rather because ______.
When things are not black and white, we deal in probability. It is far more likely than not that your alternative hypothesis -- whatever you cook up -- is less probable than the obvious. Basic Frames don't see much use in competitive play because they are less good than alternative options. Can you cook up a convincing alternative explanation?
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Soto Gallente
431
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Posted - 2016.01.25 21:36:00 -
[51646] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Soto Gallente wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Soto Gallente wrote:
You are thinking wrong here. Correlation does not equal causation.
There's an explanation behind every pattern. Low usage doesn't happen by accident. Exactly, there is always a reason. But the correlation is not NECESSARILY that reason. Fill in the blank with your very best alternative hypothesis: Basic Frames are underutilized in competitive play not because they are inferior to alternative options, but rather because ______.When things are not black and white, we deal in probability. It is far more likely than not that your alternative hypothesis -- whatever you cook up -- is less probable than the obvious. Basic Frames don't see much use in competitive play because they are less good than alternative options. Can you cook up a convincing alternative explanation?
Basic Frames are underutilized in competitive play not because they are inferior to alternative options, but rather because the alternative options are easier to play as, though not necessarily better.
Ex-news reporter for The Scope
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
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Posted - 2016.01.25 21:47:00 -
[51647] - Quote
Soto Gallente wrote:... because the alternative options are easier to play as, though not necessarily better.
That's an interesting claim.
If there's any truth it, we'll find evidence in the data. The data says ... there's a low possibility that your claim applies to AM and GA Heavies, but your claim is absolutely and resoundingly false as it applies to other basic frames.
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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noob cavman
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
4
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Posted - 2016.01.25 21:50:00 -
[51648] - Quote
Basic frames are bad.
The only basic frame anyone used was the amarr heavy beacuse it was 2/3 layout which was great for the ishi forgegun and thats before the other heavies came out.
The most abusive northerner.
currently reading clockwork vampires by andy remic. A terra bad/awesome author
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Soto Gallente
431
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Posted - 2016.01.25 21:51:00 -
[51649] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Soto Gallente wrote:... because the alternative options are easier to play as, though not necessarily better. That's an interesting claim. If there's any truth it, we'll find evidence in the data. The data says ... there's a low possibility that your claim applies to AM and GA Heavies, but your claim is false as it applies to other basic frames.
I'm going to edit it a bit/.
Because the alternative options are easier to play as compared to the basic frames, though not necessarily better.
That's what I really meant to say.
Ex-news reporter for The Scope
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Soto Gallente
431
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Posted - 2016.01.25 21:52:00 -
[51650] - Quote
noob cavman wrote:Basic frames are bad.
The only basic frame anyone used was the amarr heavy beacuse it was 2/3 layout which was great for the ishi forgegun and thats before the other heavies came out.
Well, I understand your opinion, and I do not feel like repeating my same argument,. So, just follow along with me and Shotty.
Ex-news reporter for The Scope
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Dried ShadowBeaver
Nos Nothi
269
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Posted - 2016.01.25 21:54:00 -
[51651] - Quote
Soto Gallente wrote:Basic Frames are underutilized in competitive play not because they are inferior to alternative options, but rather because the alternative options are easier to play as, though not necessarily better.
That sounds like exactly the same thing.
If something's easier to play as, then it must be because it's better (more OP).
Touch my beaver tail.
Go on.
Touch it.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
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Posted - 2016.01.25 21:57:00 -
[51652] - Quote
Soto Gallente wrote:noob cavman wrote:Basic frames are bad.
The only basic frame anyone used was the amarr heavy beacuse it was 2/3 layout which was great for the ishi forgegun and thats before the other heavies came out. Well, I understand your opinion, and I do not feel like repeating my same argument,. So, just follow along with me and Shotty.
There's not much to follow. You made a qualitative and baseless claim which is not supported by the data. It is not much different than saying ...
Basic Frames are underutilized in PC because Noob has a withered ghoulhand.
One can't prove the claim or disprove the claim, but we all know that claim is improbable and ridiculous.
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
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Posted - 2016.01.25 21:58:00 -
[51653] - Quote
noob cavman wrote:Basic frames are bad.
The only basic frame anyone used was the amarr heavy beacuse it was 2/3 layout which was great for the ishi forgegun and thats before the other heavies came out.
^ This is the most probable explanation. This explanation also happens to fit the data.
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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noob cavman
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
4
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Posted - 2016.01.25 22:03:00 -
[51654] - Quote
How bout you shove your condescending attitude right down your jackpipe?
There is no magical unicorn bonus to using a basic over a specialized frame when the specialized gets soo many bonuses over it.
More hp
Lower shield delay
More innate armor repair
Lower db damping
More slots.
More cpu.
More pg
Resistances.
Bonuses to weapon's.
Bonuses to equipment.
The most abusive northerner.
currently reading clockwork vampires by andy remic. A terra bad/awesome author
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noob cavman
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
4
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Posted - 2016.01.25 22:04:00 -
[51655] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Soto Gallente wrote:noob cavman wrote:Basic frames are bad.
The only basic frame anyone used was the amarr heavy beacuse it was 2/3 layout which was great for the ishi forgegun and thats before the other heavies came out. Well, I understand your opinion, and I do not feel like repeating my same argument,. So, just follow along with me and Shotty. There's not much to follow. You made a qualitative and baseless claim which is not supported by the data. It is not much different than saying ... Basic Frames are underutilized in PC because Noob has a withered ghoulhand.One can't prove the claim or disprove the claim, but we all know that claim is improbable and ridiculous. Not to mention, insensitive.  il fist you with it <3
The most abusive northerner.
currently reading clockwork vampires by andy remic. A terra bad/awesome author
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
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Posted - 2016.01.25 22:06:00 -
[51656] - Quote
noob cavman wrote:How bout you shove your condescending attitude right down your jackpipe?
There is no magical unicorn bonus to using a basic over a specialized frame when the specialized gets soo many bonuses over it.
More hp
Lower shield delay
More innate armor repair
Lower db damping
More slots.
More cpu.
More pg
Resistances.
Bonuses to weapon's.
Bonuses to equipment.
Snap!
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Soto Gallente
431
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Posted - 2016.01.25 22:11:00 -
[51657] - Quote
noob cavman wrote:How bout you shove your condescending attitude right down your jackpipe?
There is no magical unicorn bonus to using a basic over a specialized frame when the specialized gets soo many bonuses over it.
More hp (True in most cases except for light frames)
Lower shield delay (Not true in most cases)
More innate armor repair (Not true on most basic suits)
Lower db damping (Also not true)
More slots. (Only for medium frames)
More cpu. (Well the Amarr Heavy Frame has more CPU than the Sentinel)
More pg. (The Amarr Light Frame has more PG than the scout)
Resistances.
Bonuses to weapon's.
Bonuses to equipment.
Ftfy
Ex-news reporter for The Scope
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General Vahzz
PIanet Express
174
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Posted - 2016.01.25 22:44:00 -
[51658] - Quote
Blaze, get this through your tiny, brick wall excuse for a skull; your "opinion," is wrong. Most times; that is what would be flying around, opinions. But not when there is UNDENIABLE ******* EVIDENCE THAT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS ABSOLUTE COCKNEY BULLSHIT.
You say they are useful, but you have yet to provide a SINGLE OUNCE of evidence except for ONE, FREAKING ONE PC SCORE. Take your baseless statistics and shove them right back into your ass, from whence they came, as they say.
You can bite my shiny metal ass.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
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Posted - 2016.01.25 22:47:00 -
[51659] - Quote
Now, now gentlemen. No need for a barfight ...
:: grabs popcorn ::
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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General Vahzz
PIanet Express
175
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Posted - 2016.01.25 22:50:00 -
[51660] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Now, now gentlemen. No need for a barfight ...
:: grabs popcorn ::
Oh shotty, I am sorry, but i am about to bring out the big guns if he tries again.
You can bite my shiny metal ass.
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