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Adipem Nothi wrote:

One Eyed King wrote:

I think all the slot changes that need to happen are on the Assault side, Pro Assaults always had too many, but it wasn't noticed or complained about because they were so UP for so long.

Would like to see DPS across weapon tiers within type closer to one another, and adjusting kick, dispersion, clip size, reload, and ammo capacity changed to make Pro most ideal.

For example, if two players had the same suit and stats, and one had a Std AR and landed all their shots, they would be able to take out the enemy having the Pro AR but only landing 50-75 percent of their shots.

However, if they both landed 50-75 percent, the Pro AR would win for not having to reload and/or reloading much faster. And they would not need resupplied as quickly etc.

This would keep std items deadly, at least at higher skill levels, but would still have enough draw backs that you couldn't just spray and pray and get easy kills.

Should we spend our time and effort asking for what should be done, even if there's near zero chance that it'd actually get done?

I agree that reducing Assault slot count by one would be the very best shot at better class balance, but I don't see that happening in the current environment. Think back to the Speed/HP Curve. The changes made perfect sense and were plainly warranted; even so, Rattati had to cram the curve down the throats of a moaning MedFrame Majority. For many players, preserving advantage was (and is) more important than doing the right thing. Now imagine the headache Rattati would've had to endure if CPM2 had been in office at the time. Hooray for good timing.

Point being, we can ask for Assault nerfs, but the requests aren't likely going to gain any traction with CPM, even if nerfing Assaults is the right thing to do. The next best thing we can do is push for reasonable and measured Scout buffs.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 178 post(s)
Immortal John Ripper 29	Posted - 2015.11.01 04:24:00 - [49441] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: It's 3:20 in the morning on Sunday and I hate everyone and everything. I have all the work ever and then a bit more that I should be doing but instead I played DUST and forum warred with bads. Regular Sunday. I too am lying under a chair atm. EDIT: And the birds are singing and making me feel bad. Damnit. Sleep. I just thought you were going through a roid rage. Not steroids, hemorrhoids. I had a coworker who would speak tmi and tried to basically explain why he had to be a butthole all the time. You remind me of such a person. When Ratatti surpasses my like count, I'd like for my name to be changed to Captain Picard. Will you please be my #1?
IAmDuncanIdaho II Nos Nothi 5	Posted - 2015.11.01 06:49:00 - [49442] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: If you guys have been following the most recent NPE discussions, there's been alot of talk about the Gear Gap (aka Power Gap, TTK Gap, etc). This concept ties in closely with Power Creep; pretty much every time something gets buffed, players with high-end loadouts tend to benefit from the buff by greater degree than players with low-end loadouts. There are some who would and have argued that the Gear Gap and/or Power Creep aren't real, or that the gaps are too insignificant to warrant concern. Let's ignore those "some" for now and assume that (A) the Gear Gap is real and that (B) narrowing the Gear Gap would be a straight-forward way to improve NPE so long as Power Creep is not exacerbated. There's no doubt that standardizing slot layouts between tiers has helped to narrow the performance gap. Why not take it one step further? Google Doc Help me shoot holes in this, gents. Good idea? Bad idea? Your thoughts? For some reason my instinct is to lower the low end a bit closer to current so you can tone down the high end a little too, but the general concept i agree with. i would also point out that whilst the slot layout change narrowed the gap between tiers, it will have widened the gap between classes. i made this point several times before the changes went live but not sure anyone agreed, cared or understood ;-) i actually thought i was about to read a suggestion about giving every suit the same slots, to remove "slot creep" [edit] tho i suppose lowering high end would lower ttk, so you would have to balance dps too. keeping high end where it is allows non-pro gear to catch up without needing to rebalance everything else to maintain ttk, assuming ttk is where it should be right now. [edit2] power creep is a known thing outside of dust, so anyone denying that is pushing another agenda There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't
Pseudogenesis Nos Nothi 4	Posted - 2015.11.01 06:57:00 - [49443] - Quote Immortal John Ripper wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: It's 3:20 in the morning on Sunday and I hate everyone and everything. I have all the work ever and then a bit more that I should be doing but instead I played DUST and forum warred with bads. Regular Sunday. I too am lying under a chair atm. EDIT: And the birds are singing and making me feel bad. Damnit. Sleep. I just thought you were going through a roid rage. Not steroids, hemorrhoids. I had a coworker who would speak tmi and tried to basically explain why he had to be a butthole all the time. You remind me of such a person. I applaud your desire to explain forum butthurt scientifically. Stabby-stabber extraordinaire Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
Arkena Wyrnspire Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 28	Posted - 2015.11.01 11:47:00 - [49444] - Quote IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: assuming ttk is where it should be right now. Is it? Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu Kaze, you are best logi. Best. Logi.
IAmDuncanIdaho II Nos Nothi 5	Posted - 2015.11.01 13:56:00 - [49445] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: assuming ttk is where it should be right now. Is it? no idea There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.11.01 14:19:00 - [49446] - Quote IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: If you guys have been following the most recent NPE discussions, there's been alot of talk about the Gear Gap (aka Power Gap, TTK Gap, etc). This concept ties in closely with Power Creep; pretty much every time something gets buffed, players with high-end loadouts tend to benefit from the buff by greater degree than players with low-end loadouts. There are some who would and have argued that the Gear Gap and/or Power Creep aren't real, or that the gaps are too insignificant to warrant concern. Let's ignore those "some" for now and assume that (A) the Gear Gap is real and that (B) narrowing the Gear Gap would be a straight-forward way to improve NPE so long as Power Creep is not exacerbated. There's no doubt that standardizing slot layouts between tiers has helped to narrow the performance gap. Why not take it one step further? Google Doc Help me shoot holes in this, gents. Good idea? Bad idea? Your thoughts? For some reason my instinct is to lower the low end a bit closer to current so you can tone down the high end a little too, but the general concept i agree with. i would also point out that whilst the slot layout change narrowed the gap between tiers, it will have widened the gap between classes. i made this point several times before the changes went live but not sure anyone agreed, cared or understood ;-) i actually thought i was about to read a suggestion about giving every suit the same slots, to remove "slot creep" [edit] tho i suppose lowering high end would lower ttk, so you would have to balance dps too. keeping high end where it is allows non-pro gear to catch up without needing to rebalance everything else to maintain ttk, assuming ttk is where it should be right now. [edit2] power creep is a known thing outside of dust, so anyone denying that is pushing another agenda Thanks for the feedback, Duncan. Sounds like we're on the same page. The focus above is limited strictly to narrowing the gap between "like type" high-end and low-end loadouts. It does not aim to improve interclass balance or overall module balance. While bringing the high-end and the low-end closer to the middle would be my preferred approach, I don't think that such a suggestion -- even if for the better -- would gain any traction. As I see it, bringing up the bottom as proposed would be the best bet at getting something done for the newbros. Can you think of any potential problems or objections? Dropsuit Usage Rates
Hylian11 Opus Arcana 511	Posted - 2015.11.01 14:40:00 - [49447] - Quote They are deleting now.... Not lock, delete... The time is coming..the doors are opening...OUR GLADE IS NOT SAFE!! Me: "Don't listen to her, I am not a teddy bear!" Raven: "I believe her more"
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.11.01 15:27:00 - [49448] - Quote IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: i actually thought i was about to read a suggestion about giving every suit the same slots, to remove "slot creep" That'd make for a rather bold proposition. Don't think it'd work out very well though :-) As far as Scout class balance goes, we're probably going to have to start making noise and asking for buffs. At this time, I'm opposed to adding a slot as I suspect it'd be too much a buff; thinking something smaller would do the trick (for now, at least). There might be room on the speed/hp curve for a slight bump to Scout base speed, which could certainly help with our survivability. Another option might be to increase Scout base jump height and decrease fall damage. Could also buff Scout base scan range (20m ---> 25m) and/or decrease cloakblind (85% ---> 50%) without creating any real balance issues. Buffing cloak active damp bonus could potentially free up a low slot for high-level AM and MN Scouts. Increasing movement speed while Knives are equipped would be a pretty cool way to simultaneously help Scouts and improve knife play. Can you guys think of any other hotfix-friendly tweaks? Dropsuit Usage Rates
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 13	Posted - 2015.11.01 16:58:00 - [49449] - Quote I think all the slot changes that need to happen are on the Assault side, Pro Assaults always had too many, but it wasn't noticed or complained about because they were so UP for so long. Would like to see DPS across weapon tiers within type closer to one another, and adjusting kick, dispersion, clip size, reload, and ammo capacity changed to make Pro most ideal. For example, if two players had the same suit and stats, and one had a Std AR and landed all their shots, they would be able to take out the enemy having the Pro AR but only landing 50-75 percent of their shots. However, if they both landed 50-75 percent, the Pro AR would win for not having to reload and/or reloading much faster. And they would not need resupplied as quickly etc. This would keep std items deadly, at least at higher skill levels, but would still have enough draw backs that you couldn't just spray and pray and get easy kills. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Joel II X Bacon with a bottle of Quafe 9	Posted - 2015.11.01 17:55:00 - [49450] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: i actually thought i was about to read a suggestion about giving every suit the same slots, to remove "slot creep" That'd make for a rather bold proposition. Don't think it'd work out very well though :-) As far as Scout class balance goes, we're probably going to have to start making noise and asking for buffs. At this time, I'm opposed to adding a slot as I suspect it'd be too much a buff; thinking something smaller would do the trick (for now, at least). There might be room on the speed/hp curve for a slight bump to Scout base speed, which could certainly help with our survivability. Another option might be to increase Scout base jump height and decrease fall damage. Could also buff Scout base scan range (20m ---> 25m) and/or decrease cloakblind (85% ---> 50%) without creating any real balance issues. Buffing cloak active damp bonus could potentially free up a low slot for high-level AM and MN Scouts. Increasing movement speed while Knives are equipped would be a pretty cool way to simultaneously help Scouts and improve knife play. Can you guys think of any other hotfix-friendly tweaks? I'm heavily against cloak damp buff. The Gallente benefit too much from it, as to having the ability to use less dampening to avoid everything, in which case one could just use a low for something else, like a Ferroscale. *Scouts United* Gk.0s & Quafes all day.

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.11.01 18:05:00 - [49451] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: i actually thought i was about to read a suggestion about giving every suit the same slots, to remove "slot creep" That'd make for a rather bold proposition. Don't think it'd work out very well though :-) As far as Scout class balance goes, we're probably going to have to start making noise and asking for buffs. At this time, I'm opposed to adding a slot as I suspect it'd be too much a buff; thinking something smaller would do the trick (for now, at least). There might be room on the speed/hp curve for a slight bump to Scout base speed, which could certainly help with our survivability. Another option might be to increase Scout base jump height and decrease fall damage. Could also buff Scout base scan range (20m ---> 25m) and/or decrease cloakblind (85% ---> 50%) without creating any real balance issues. Buffing cloak active damp bonus could potentially free up a low slot for high-level AM and MN Scouts. Increasing movement speed while Knives are equipped would be a pretty cool way to simultaneously help Scouts and improve knife play. Can you guys think of any other hotfix-friendly tweaks? I'm heavily against cloak damp buff. The Gallente benefit too much from it, as to having the ability to use less dampening to avoid everything, in which case one could just use a low for something else, like a Ferroscale. Have you checked the numbers? EWAR progressions are on Page 1. Thinking 0-5-10 to 5-10-15. The point is to enable MN/AM Scouts to duck 21dB scans if they fit 1 complex damp and have a proto cloak active. If my math's correct, Gallente and Caldari Scouts would observe zero (or near zero) interplay benefits; they'd still need to fit a damp to dodge permascan. PS: I completely agree with you that zero damp GalScouts would be trouble. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.11.01 18:28:00 - [49452] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: I think all the slot changes that need to happen are on the Assault side, Pro Assaults always had too many, but it wasn't noticed or complained about because they were so UP for so long. Would like to see DPS across weapon tiers within type closer to one another, and adjusting kick, dispersion, clip size, reload, and ammo capacity changed to make Pro most ideal. For example, if two players had the same suit and stats, and one had a Std AR and landed all their shots, they would be able to take out the enemy having the Pro AR but only landing 50-75 percent of their shots. However, if they both landed 50-75 percent, the Pro AR would win for not having to reload and/or reloading much faster. And they would not need resupplied as quickly etc. This would keep std items deadly, at least at higher skill levels, but would still have enough draw backs that you couldn't just spray and pray and get easy kills. Should we spend our time and effort asking for what should be done, even if there's near zero chance that it'd actually get done? I agree that reducing Assault slot count by one would be the very best shot at better class balance, but I don't see that happening in the current environment. Think back to the Speed/HP Curve discussions. The changes made perfect sense and were plainly warranted; even so, Rattati had to cram the curve down the throats of a moaning MedFrame Majority. For the bulk of players, intentionally or not, preserving advantage took priority over doing the right thing. Now imagine the headache Rattati would've had to endure if CPM2 had been in office at the time. Hooray for good timing. Point being, sure we can ask for Assault nerfs, but the requests aren't likely going to gain any traction, even if nerfing Assaults is the right thing to do. The next best thing we can do, in my mind at least, is point out balance concerns from our perspective and propose reasonable and measured Scout buffs. Dropsuit Usage Rates
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 13	Posted - 2015.11.01 18:40:00 - [49453] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: One Eyed King wrote: I think all the slot changes that need to happen are on the Assault side, Pro Assaults always had too many, but it wasn't noticed or complained about because they were so UP for so long. Would like to see DPS across weapon tiers within type closer to one another, and adjusting kick, dispersion, clip size, reload, and ammo capacity changed to make Pro most ideal. For example, if two players had the same suit and stats, and one had a Std AR and landed all their shots, they would be able to take out the enemy having the Pro AR but only landing 50-75 percent of their shots. However, if they both landed 50-75 percent, the Pro AR would win for not having to reload and/or reloading much faster. And they would not need resupplied as quickly etc. This would keep std items deadly, at least at higher skill levels, but would still have enough draw backs that you couldn't just spray and pray and get easy kills. Should we spend our time and effort asking for what should be done, even if there's near zero chance that it'd actually get done? I agree that reducing Assault slot count by one would be the very best shot at better class balance, but I don't see that happening in the current environment. Think back to the Speed/HP Curve. The changes made perfect sense and were plainly warranted; even so, Rattati had to cram the curve down the throats of a moaning MedFrame Majority. For many players, preserving advantage was (and is) more important than doing the right thing. Now imagine the headache Rattati would've had to endure if CPM2 had been in office at the time. Hooray for good timing. Point being, we can ask for Assault nerfs, but the requests aren't likely going to gain any traction with CPM, even if nerfing Assaults is the right thing to do. The next best thing we can do is push for reasonable and measured Scout buffs. I don't think that we could ask for those changes reasonably, but was merely giving my perception. I personally don't think it good for the long-term health of the game to ignore such things. If we don't fix the real problems, we only kick the can down the road. I also think that if weapon and item normalization were addressed, such issues as Assault slots would be minimized. That is why I spent most of the post addressing that problem. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.11.01 18:48:00 - [49454] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: I don't think that we could ask for those changes reasonably, but was merely giving my perception. I personally don't think it good for the long-term health of the game to ignore such things. If we don't fix the real problems, we only kick the can down the road. I also think that if weapon and item normalization were addressed, such issues as Assault slots would be minimized. That is why I spent most of the post addressing that problem. I'm with you, right up until weapon normalization. As far as rifles go, PRO rifles hit only ~5% harder than ADV, and ADV hit only ~5% harder than STD. Anything less, and it'd be tough to observe any real difference. PRO modules, on the other hand, are vastly better than STD modules. Numbers: Google Doc I'm definitely on board with bringing low-end and high-end modules closer together, but I don't know that I agree with weapons. Seems to me that Rattati's done a good job at narrowing the performance gap weapon-wise; what am I missing? Dropsuit Usage Rates
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.11.01 19:01:00 - [49455] - Quote On the topic of weapons (now stealing your idea, OEK ), one weapon I think could use some work is the post-nerf, post-nerf, post-nerf Swarm Launcher. STD and ADV are garbage, and they have been since forever. Instead of differentiating tier by damage, how 'bout differentiating tier by clip size? STD Swarms would have a clipsize of 3. ADV Swarms would have a clipsize of 4. PRO Swarms would have the pre-nerf, pre-nerf, pre-nerf clipsize of 5. * All Tiers would do exactly the same damage. Thoughts? Any clever ideas for the Assault variant? Dropsuit Usage Rates
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 13	Posted - 2015.11.01 19:13:00 - [49456] - Quote @ Shotty I don't think that DPS needs to be the balancing factor. Especially in a high TTK environment. Now maybe if TTK were lower that would make more sense. But if say, the difference in DPS between pro and standard ScR were only 3% instead of 10%, you could give Pro much higher clip size and std much lower clip size. Look how grenades have been adjusted. Same damage, with radius sizes being the difference. This is what I would like to see, personally, across items and weapons. Mods would have to be a whole different story as many have too few facets to adjust to begin with. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 13	Posted - 2015.11.01 19:16:00 - [49457] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: On the topic of weapons (now stealing your idea, OEK ), one weapon I think could use some work is the post-nerf, post-nerf, post-nerf Swarm Launcher. STD and ADV are garbage, and they have been since forever. Instead of differentiating tier by damage, how 'bout differentiating tier by clip size? STD Swarms would have a clipsize of 3. ADV Swarms would have a clipsize of 4. PRO Swarms would have the pre-nerf, pre-nerf, pre-nerf clipsize of 5. * All Tiers would do exactly the same damage. Thoughts? Any clever ideas for the Assault variant? Assaults would need a sizable reduction to reload and delay between volleys. So that while you don't have a high alpha, you can at least pester them with persistence. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 28	Posted - 2015.11.01 19:38:00 - [49458] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: start making noise Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu Kaze, you are best logi. Best. Logi.
XxBlazikenxX Pure Evil. Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 3	Posted - 2015.11.01 20:05:00 - [49459] - Quote Now that I have thought about it Ghost, I am intrigued by your idea. Amarr Loyalist Amarr Commando Forever Ancient Exiles. Member
Djinn SouI Molden Heath PoIice Department 161	Posted - 2015.11.01 21:40:00 - [49460] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: start making noise moans

Dried ShadowBeaver Nos Nothi 200	Posted - 2015.11.01 22:13:00 - [49461] - Quote YOU CANNOT ESCAPE. Touch my beaver tail. Go on. Touch it.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 28	Posted - 2015.11.01 22:34:00 - [49462] - Quote why are you here soul Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu Kaze, you are best logi. Best. Logi.
XxBlazikenxX Pure Evil. Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 3	Posted - 2015.11.01 22:36:00 - [49463] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: why are you here soul Obviously me of course... Amarr Loyalist Amarr Commando Forever Ancient Exiles. Member
Dried ShadowBeaver Nos Nothi 204	Posted - 2015.11.01 22:38:00 - [49464] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: why are you here soul I am the Ghost of Fanfest Past. Touch my beaver tail. Go on. Touch it.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 28	Posted - 2015.11.01 22:39:00 - [49465] - Quote Dried ShadowBeaver wrote: YOU CANNOT ESCAPE. Context: Dreis asked me about his girl problems on Skype so I blocked him. Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu Kaze, you are best logi. Best. Logi.
Dried ShadowBeaver Nos Nothi 204	Posted - 2015.11.01 22:44:00 - [49466] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Dried ShadowBeaver wrote: YOU CANNOT ESCAPE. Context: Dreis asked me about his girl problems on Skype so I blocked him. Context: Did not ask Ark about my girl problems. It was meant to be a humourous anecdote for a different chat. I mistakenly posted it to Ark. You blocked me before that actually. Touch my beaver tail. Go on. Touch it.
Djinn SouI Molden Heath PoIice Department 164	Posted - 2015.11.01 22:47:00 - [49467] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: why are you here soul Obviously for the disappointment. What else could I find here?
Dried ShadowBeaver Nos Nothi 204	Posted - 2015.11.01 22:52:00 - [49468] - Quote Djinn SouI wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: why are you here soul Obviously for the disappointment. What else could I find here? Oh, there's actually a guy called Soul. Well now I am embarrassed. Maybe if Ark had used a capital letter for 'Soul' I would have known that it was an actual name. Ark, go back to school. #rekt #420 #somlg Touch my beaver tail. Go on. Touch it.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 28	Posted - 2015.11.01 22:56:00 - [49469] - Quote Djinn SouI wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: why are you here soul Obviously for the disappointment. What else could I find here? Well... You could find terrible arguments where boths sides are wrong about everything they're arguing about. You could find strange needy teenagers who sometimes PM you on skype about all their life problems. You could find actual discussion about DU- Ach, this is fooling nobody. These are all negative. Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu Kaze, you are best logi. Best. Logi.
Djinn SouI Molden Heath PoIice Department 168	Posted - 2015.11.01 23:00:00 - [49470] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Djinn SouI wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: why are you here soul Obviously for the disappointment. What else could I find here? Well... You could find terrible arguments where boths sides are wrong about everything they're arguing about. You could find strange needy teenagers who sometimes PM you on skype about all their life problems. You could find actual discussion about DU- Ach, this is fooling nobody. These are all negative. Everything you listed disappoints me.



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