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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.05 12:47:00 - [1] - Quote Since a short time after the release of Quake 3, I haven't played many PC-based shooters. I played a few before moving to primarily being a console gamer, but not many, and not often. I have friends who routinely play PC games and are AWESOME at them. My console of choice is a PS3. Before getting Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine for myself on PS3, I went to a friend's house and played the game on PC. He let me play it using KB+M, and a 360 gamepad. Using console style controls, I was keeping up with competitive PC gamers better than my friend could when using KB+M, and he had more familiarity with his control scheme (I'm used to PS3 controller, not 360) as well as more experience in the game. Why? Because I'm good with console aiming. If it's done WELL, KB+M isn't an unfair advantage. It's an alternative option.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.05 16:13:00 - [2] - Quote Spushkin wrote: Newsflash, Third Person Shooters are great to play with a joypad. With First Person Shooters, on the other hand, the advantage is hugely on the M&K side. Bigger newsflash: The control schemes are only minimally different and it's more about the specific game mechanics than the perspective from which gameplay is viewed. DUST plays more like War for Cybertron and Space Marine than Call of Duty and Battlefield. EDIT: Swap "Space Marine" for "Syndicate" and I've had similar results, except that Syndicate doesn't have PvP combat, so it's less relevant. I was still able to outscore experienced KB+M players while using a gamepad and layout that are both slightly different from my usual.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.05 17:51:00 - [3] - Quote Spushkin wrote: I guess the only thing is to wait and see. I have a usb M&K nearby, and will check how CCP deals with this. But I don't want to own people just because I have the hardware that is optional and is not used by 99% of PS3 population. That's far worse for me than the infamous "pay-to-win" potential that so many have cried about. I can't say with 100% certainty that the game WILL be fair with this, but I can say it's POSSIBLE and that it HAS been done well before. Hopefully CCP make it work. If not, I have the necessary USB-capable hardware too, so I should be fine... I'll just need time to get used to KB+M control again. It's been a LOOONG time. As you said, wait and see :) Hopefully all goes well.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.05 20:27:00 - [4] - Quote Fatmanpro wrote: Lilianna Sentinel wrote: Fatmanpro wrote: lol its F2P so they need a lot of people to keep playing it for a while Just throw in KB+M and this wont happen That's quite a claim, can you back it up with numbers? Common sense Apparently you lack it Apparently YOU lack it, actually. The number of PS3 owners with PCs that just happen to have a compatible mouse and keyboard attached is probably larger than you appreciate. And the number of PS3 players willing to spend $20 or so on cheap peripherals so they can become more competitive in their otherwise-free FPS is also probably higher than you think. As for myself, I have an old PC with USB KB+M, but I don't intend to use them, and will be disappointed if CCP can't balance the two control schemes. It's been done before, so I don't see a reason why it can't happen here. As long as the controller works competently, I intend to have fun and not care as much about competition.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.05 20:52:00 - [5] - Quote Farson Thrask wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: As for myself, I have an old PC with USB KB+M, but I don't intend to use them, and will be disappointed if CCP can't balance the two control schemes. It's been done before, so I don't see a reason why it can't happen here. As long as the controller works competently, I intend to have fun and not care as much about competition. How do you want them to balance it? Many people say autoaim is bad and gets in the way, but the only other way would be to impose ridiculous limitations on the mouse, like making the crosshair stutter or something like that. Or maybe I simply have a bad imagination. Well-implemented passive auto-aim (not complained about unless it's REALLY badly done) as well as OPTIONAL active auto-aim (active auto-aim being the kind people complain about), and fairly-balanced limits on turning speed when using mouse aim.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.07 14:40:00 - [6] - Quote Empleh Enoemos wrote: GM Fabulous wrote: Hello everyone. To keep you informed on this subject, KB&M support is coming. We currently plan to release it in the next major beta patch (build). i hope they quickly realize its a mistake and remove the option Need dislike button (and intending to stick with sixaxis controls when KB+M is implemented).
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.07 18:29:00 - [7] - Quote Chew B0CCA wrote: GM Fabulous wrote: Hello everyone. To keep you informed on this subject, KB&M support is coming. We currently plan to release it in the next major beta patch (build). And my interest in this game just left. Thanks CCP. Why would you release a game on the PS3 and then make it that much more difficult for hard core PS3 players who use the DS3? Brilliant. You should've just released it on PC and saved us the time. So you missed the entire discussion then? There are plenty of ways to balance KB+M. Wait and see if it gives and advantage, and how much of one. I'm expecting it won't be a problem, and if it is, I'll be calling for a fix. Until we see it happening, we don't know.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.08 12:12:00 - [8] - Quote KB+M has two core advantages over the Sixaxis controller (NOT just DS3, I had a release-day PS3 with a pre-DualShock controller that's outlasted that first console). 1. Precision 2. Speed MOST people used to PC games expect both of these. Some games limit speed, but there's no practical way to limit precision, and I don't think they should. Speed, on the other hand, is too big an advantage while turning speed has variable caps based on what you're controlling. Also, SOME PC games have already had speed caps on turning in the past, and while that gave them a bit of an added learning curve for most players, they still worked well once you got used to the system. The Sixaxis controller has an advantage over KB+M control too, which people keep forgetting. MOVEMENT. Analog movement > WASD. If the turning speed advantage of mouse users is negated, there's going to be a good balance, and everyone will have a good basis to work from. Except Move players, because right now, they're being shafted by terribly-implemented controls. A fix for this would be nice (even though I'm not going to bother with Move outside of testing purposes).
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.08 12:39:00 - [9] - Quote Templar Two wrote: ^^^ As long as the natural superior accuracy of the mouse is not negated it will always have an advantage. It will take always more effort for me to move (at the same speed) my reticule on your head usign the less accurate DS3 rahter then you using the mouse. No pal, the only way to balance the mouse is to make it exactly as fast/accurate as the analog stick. And as I said above, it would then be better to have never implemented it because a mouse is good only if it fully behaves as a mouse. As someone planning to use the Sixaxis controller, I have no problem with the mouse being more ACCURATE. Only with it being FASTER, which can be managed without breaking the game (although, as mentioned, it has a learning curve when you're used to "normal" KB+M FPS controls). That accuracy advantage is offset by the controller's movement advantage, but there isn't any realistic way to counter the speed advantage mouse users would have except by limiting it. That will make it about personal preference, rather than getting a direct advantage by using one option over the other. People who prefer KB+M play will do so, people who prefer the Sixaxis will stick with it, and nobody will be disadvantaged by what input method they use. The game is drawing a lot of PC gamers who just don't want to use a gamepad, and having slightly-different KB+M control will still be their preferred option. Many of the console gamers who are familiar and comfortable with out own choice of controller will stick with that, and as long as we have some advantage to offset the benefits of mouse control, that will be fine too.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.13 11:23:00 - [10] - Quote TheThink wrote: KB&M is unfair to all users with a Controller - I-¦m sad the game died for me when there ist KB&M Supp.... I'm still waiting until they implement it before judging. It'll either be hard for most KB+M players to get used to, but it'll be fair... or they'll let KB+M players break the system and kill the game for people who want controllers to be supported.

Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.16 03:22:00 - [11] - Quote I'm not planning on using it (except for testing purposes), but I fully support KB+M on the condition that it's at least relatively well balanced against the standard sixaxis controller.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.16 14:04:00 - [12] - Quote Rain Arran wrote: Your average 13 year old (which is the age that dominates the PS3 market) Not what the official stats said in 2009: http://www.destructoid.com/average-psn-user-is-male-28-and-educated-147132.phtml http://www.psu.com/a008048/SCEA--Average-PSN-user-is-28-years-old Average age: 28. I'm inclined to think that the average is likely to still be slightly above 13. But actually ON the topic of things, I'm still waiting to see HOW KB+M control is implemented. I can think of 2 possibilities. 1. Mouse turning has the same hard cap for each suit as the sixaxis controller and Move have. If this happens, KB+M control will give less fluid movement, but more precise aiming. This is fair and balanced. When I was a PC gamer, I played a few games with turning speed caps, and while it took time to get used to coming from a game without, it was no more difficult than learning a new game's default layout, or spending a few minutes remapping things. 2. CCP screw console gamers who are more comfortable with our controllers than the PC standard, and give full freedom to mouse turning. This is not only a bad idea because of the control imbalance it provides, but also because it will allow mouse users to negate one of the core elements currently being used to balance the different dropsuits and vehicles. If it's not obvious why that's a bad idea, you should probably stop pretending you know what "beta" means. As I expect you can already tell, I'm in favour of the first option, because it's the one that actually makes sense, as opposed to being a game-breaking-ly terrible plan.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.16 14:44:00 - [13] - Quote Sol, your argument is the same one everyone else is making while missing the core reason WHY it happened. MS gave KB+M the advantage by catering to the specific standard PC-based implementation instead of a less-common but still accepted method of implementing KB+M control which would almost completely level the playing field. Read my post above your two.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.16 17:03:00 - [14] - Quote Mr TamiyaCowboy wrote: my PS3 pad has a mind of its own, tuning down the sensitivity had a major adverse effect on walking/running. we all know and have read countless posts " my ps3 controller doing wierd things " topics etc etc. they are known to be fairly pony, lets admit that. Before they released the DS3 controllers, I went through 2. My first controller has something break inside and R2 locked up about 3 days after I bought it. They replaced it under warranty at no charge. That same controller, which I got less than a week after release of the console, is still working now. I have 3 more controllers, with a 4th on back-order from the store where I got my replacement PS3 because my original finally died about 3 months ago, the first of which I bought about 2 years ago. The only controller with any issues at all is the one I've had since before they did DualShock. And that's only where the sticks don't reset to centred properly and I have to keep my thumbs on them for proper control. Makes for hilarity when we give that controller to a drunk friend to play LBP2 with :) There are a couple of models, with limited availability, which have issues. The majority, DualShock or otherwise, are actually fairly reliable.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.16 21:46:00 - [15] - Quote J'Jor Da'Wg wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: I'm not planning on using it (except for testing purposes), but I fully support KB+M on the condition that it's at least relatively well balanced against the standard sixaxis controller. Where on earth did you get that idea? Kb/m is better in almost every way sans movement, but even in that it isn't far behind. Heck, there are gaming keyboards out there with analog sticks for movement, getting rid of that last slight disadvantage. I've actually lost track of how many times I've already explained this even if you only count the times in this thread, but I'll bite (again). Mouse control gives players TWO potential advantages against using an analog stick on a sixaxis controller. 1. Precision. Not arguing there. Mouse has advantage, and there's no rational way to remove it. 2. Speed. THIS CAN AND SHOULD BE CONTROLLED. You might want to take a close look at point 2 again. The CORE advantage that most console kiddies won't accept is that mouse control lets you spin on a dime without loss of precision. Analog sticks don't give you anywhere near that level of freedom. But guess what? Turning speed in DUST is one of the tools used to balance everything, so if it's possible for a mouse user to outpace a max-sensitivity sixaxis controller on the exact same setup, game balance is lost. Because this is blatantly and almost painfully obvious, CCP won't be stupid enough to intentionally disrupt one of the points around which balance has been established in the game, so no matter how fast you TRY to spin, you're going to have the same turning speed cap as we do. You just lost your main advantage. THAT is the reason there's an imbalance, and in games where it's handled right, it's NOT A PROBLEM BECAUSE THE GAME IS BALANCED FOR KB+M VS. CONTROLLER. If they do a competent job of implementing things, it's fine.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.16 22:05:00 - [16] - Quote Genhawkk wrote: Barnes Almighty wrote: Wow its like all you girls have never played a game with support for both. Quick example unreal tournament 3 on ps3 supported both. FYI keyboard offers no real advantage I regularly smashed keyboard users. Stop crying, pick up your tampons and adapt or die....... Bloody bunch of fairys. Just because you "smashed" keyboard users does not mean that there is no advantage; just means your better with the controller then those particular people with keyboard (or they just suck). If you take two equal people (exact if possible (obviously not)); then the keyboard has an advantage that you can not possibly deny (unless you are stupid). Just because someone has an advantage doesn't mean they can't lose; but they still have an advantage (see every sport ever played). No. When COMPETENTLY implemented (see Shadowrun for an example of the exact opposite), KB+M can be fairly balanced against a console-style controller or gamepad. If there is (as in DUST) a hard cap on turning (which in DUST's case is varied based on Dropsuit), that hard cap can be carried over to mouse control, and when implemented correctly, will completely negate the turning speed advantage which is the core reason KB+M is better for FPS games. Shadowrun, of course, was made by completely incompetent morons who didn't bother to think this through appropriately. Unlike those developers, CCP are actually capable of producing something worth playing. All they need is to DO IT RIGHT.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.17 16:17:00 - [17] - Quote Azura dark wrote: actually kb/m is easier as you have more control, console fps is harder as you have to fight the pad aswell as your openent making fps more fun and not easy. yes i have a gaming pc. console is harder and more fun. When you suck with a controller, you have to fight against it as well as your opponent. When you know what you're doing, you don't. Same rules apply to KB+M.

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