Great, now give 9999 Shield Points / 9999 Armor Points to each HAV (Sica and Soma included) and I think we have a balanced game.

iz the combat rifle Minmatar?

So Durka-Durka, I'm guessing the Rail Rifle is the most effective against armor in the same sense that the Scrambler Rifle is the most effective against Shields?

Only proto swarms with complex damage mods and proficiency "murders" HAVs. Everything else just peppers it with its repair unit and hardeners going until it decides to boost around a corner and recall, redeploying later when you've switched away from swarms.

EDIT: Also, there's a 55% range reduction PLUS a 33% damage reduction. For reference, this makes post-nerf proto swarms deal the exact same damage as standard swarms. Good luck taking on that Falchion with standard swarms before it magically disappears.

Tanks are getting limited ammo. Should balance out

So maybe have a friend to help you out, or hit it while the hardeners are down?

If I rushed you with a AR (high DPS weapon) from 50 meters while you use a Sniper rifle (a low DPS weapon) you would die. If I rushed you with a AR (high DPS weapon) from 200 meters while you use a Sniper rifle (a low DPS weapon) I would die. The damage in this scenario is obviously not the same, but within the optimal range the optimal weapon is winning. Now imagine the Sniper rifle having the same DPS as the AR also its longer range, the optimal weapon for BOTH scenarios would be the sniper rifle (ignoring the sway and impossible hip fire which wouldn't be a problem for the Rail), this is the problem that Arkena is pointing out.

Here's some DPS in case someone else hasn't done it. This is with Proficiency 5 and 2 Complex Damage Mods, which is a common PRO build. For reference, the Duvolle will be included in these calculations. The numbers have been rounded to the nearest multiple of 5.

Duvolle AR: 640 DPS (37.4 damage * 1.15 proficiency * 1.19 mods * 750 RPM / 60 seconds)

Boundless CR: 960 DPS (35.2 damage * 1.15 proficiency * 1.19 mods * 1200 RPM / 60 seconds)
Six Kin CR: 635 DPS (23.2 damage * 1.15 proficiency * 1.19 mods * 1200 RPM / 60 seconds)

Kaalakiota RR: 645 (61.6 damage * 1.15 proficiency * 1.19 mods * 460 RPM / 60 seconds)
Ishukone RR: 655 (48.05 damage * 1.15 proficiency * 1.19 mods * 600 RPM / 60 seconds)

So, full auto Combat Rifles and Rail Rifles have around the same damage output, but at a much longer range than standard Assault Rifles. A 0.2 second spool up doesn't seem to me like it'll be enough to stop Rail Rifle dominance. 3% more damage and a 30m range extension beyond the 48m of the Assault Rifle is very, very good.

Also, with Rail Rifles, there will no longer be a need for Laser Rifles because they cover the same range, except without a reverse damage drop off. 280 DPS between 64m and 83m (19m) or 655 DPS between 0m and 78m (78m)? No, obviously no outclassing there. Two and a half times the damage with quadruple the optimal span? Nope.

Also, heat damage is 0.6 * bullets fired. The standard LR overheats at exactly 60 bullets. Averaging the damage of these 60 bullets, provided you never let go of the trigger to maximize build up, deals 580 damage a second. The Viziam can fire around 70 bullets. This takes 6 seconds and deals 3660 damage, which is 610 damage. The peak damage of a standard LR at the very last bullet is 845 DPS, which is unobtainable because it overheats after one bullet at that DPS. The peak damage of the Viziam is 940.

To make the DPS match the Rail Rifle, you need to "charge" by wasting ammo. To reach the same average DPS throughout the TTK of your average suit, you need to fire 30 shots. This will make you deal around the same damage as the Rail Rifle on average if you land all your shots. This takes 2.5 seconds.

Thus, to reach comparable damage with the Laser Rifle as it is now to the Rail Rifle, you need to "charge" the gun over 2.5 seconds, wasting 30 ammo. The Rail Rifle, on the other hand, only takes 0.2 seconds to charge, wasting no ammo. It also has no overheat to worry about.
And a 78m optimal span, compared to the tiny 19m optimal span of the Laser.

Unless you severely modify the Laser Rifle, the Rail Rifle will either be consistently dealing twice the damage or the Laser will need to charge up for 12 times longer to reach comparable DPS, at which point it's dead twice over. The Rail Rifle thus far seems to be mathematically superior to the Laser Rifle in every way. As a Laser Rifle user, I am disappointed by this news.

Congratulations. You didn't want AR 514, so CCP has made it Long Range AR 514. They have the same DPS over a longer range with negligible trade offs. Are there any mechanics that have not been stated yet for these weapons?

Well, you should see them at that distance. You can't hit them unless you run towards them for 10 seconds first, but you can see them as they kill you in 1.5 seconds (real number if the headshot modifier is 1.5 for RRs) with headshots.

The 0.05 ROF is the time between each shot of a burst. (SHOT-0.05-SHOT-0.05-SHOT)

For comparision the AR has a ROF of 0.08 between each shot, the GK-13 Burst AR has 0.072 and the Allotek Burst AR 0.064.

So the CR bursts are significantly faster and the RPM is then only limited by how fast you can pull the trigger after each burst, which should result in you theoretically being able to shoot every 0.1 seconds.

This would lead to a DPS maximum of 960 for the standard CR. As this sounds like it'd be way too much I guess in reality you will not be able to pull the trigger that fast. Then again I don't expect the CRs real DPS to be much worse than that of the AR. Also from what I heard from the Devs the CR seems to be a really good weapon.




I made a small spreadsheet with the stats of all rifles, including interesting stats like RPM, DPS, damage after 1 second, damage per clip, and time to empty a clip.
You can find it here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkgH4oyiFeUAdFpjQW0wRExKazF6empxY0R2Rm9iV3c&usp=sharing#gid=0




The 0.2 second charge up time for the Rail Rifle is so significant that it can never catch up to the damage output of an AR.

As for the Laser Rifle, well, I guess we have to see how the Rail Rifle works in-game. You have to remember though that the Laser Rifle does not have any recoil no matter for how long you pull the trigger. I expect the Rail Rifle to have some form of recoil that also might increase over time and each time they release the trigger they have to charge up again. But if this is enough to balance the LR against the RR we'll have to see once we can actually use the new rifles.




The AR does more DPS than the RR. Due to the charge up time and a longer reload time the RR can never catch up on damage output.
For example in the first second after pulling the trigger the Duvolle AR will have dealt 467.5 damage while the Ishukone Assault RR will have dealt only 384.4 damage, all due to the charge up time.


Like I said before, here is a spreadsheet with stats of all rifles: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkgH4oyiFeUAdFpjQW0wRExKazF6empxY0R2Rm9iV3c&...

Aaaaaaand THIS IS THE MOMENT WHEN DUST DIED.
It's when the stupid people think than 2.86 to kill an heavy is too slow.
IT'S a ******* HEAVYYYYYY.
Are you ******* kidding me guys ??????

When you will understand than assaut rifle IS NOT SUPPOSED TO KILL SO FAST THE ACTUAL BIGGEST SUIT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's NOT KALOFDOUTIE WHERE YOU INSTANKILL YOU DUMBA*S.

the numbers on the boundless are off. Because it is a Burst rifle. I am not sure what the delay is, but it is most likely the same delay as the GAL burst rifle. if you know that delay stat the real DPS will be almost 150-200 DPS lower.

If it takes a team of infantry to take down a tank then of course the tank is dominant. If one player can do something that requires several players on the opposing side to counter it, then that thing provides a decisive numerical advantage.

Rocks-paper-scissors requires that one 'paper' (AV) can beat one 'rock' (tank). If it takes two or three AV to beat one tank, then AV is futile, as you'd be better off just bringing out your own tank. In other words, you don't have rock-paper-scissors but rather tank>infantry.

True. But if you do have your own tanker with you, even if it poorly fit, that poorly it tank (scissors) + an av infantry (paper) should beat the other tank(rock). So av infantry can be used as leverage to help out your vehicle teammates. This is a team based game after all. :)

Hmm proto Rail rifle 42 Rounds, 81 something damage, full auto ? Sounds like the upgrade to a scrambler rifle seizing up at round 23, rail rifle no problem just keep slugging.

Unless the recoil is going to be horrible on that thing?

Edit: Most suits will be 2-3 shot with the average Proto being 4 shot, even my suit will be a 5 shot (0.6 seconds) and then youll have enough rounds lef for another 8 suits...

sounds to me like the New Tac Fotm

Except this won't be the case. I have to emphasize the following here :

HP, Burst Tanking, and Decreased Effectiveness of Infantry Slaying Turrets
1. Tanks have lower HP than they did before
2. There's far more reliance on active modules in order to "tank" any sort of significant damage
3. Finite Ammo means Tanks have to take their focus away from infantry slaying at multiple points in order to resupply

AV will still be fulfilling its role by creating areas where the Tank can't effectively pass without taking significant damage, you don't need to kill the Tank in order to ensure that its effectiveness in the match is decreased. More so than that, and I mentioned this in my last post, but balancing AV with respect to ONLY tanks creates the situation that we have now in which Tanks are the only vehicle worth calling out in the middle of a match. I think we can both agree that Dropships are far too fragile in their current state and the LAV class of vehicles is near useless outside of Militia/BPO for transport and the Logistics class for exploiting its insane base resistances.

In order to incentivize the use of AV against vehicles though I think it'd be nice to see the return of WP awarded for doing a sufficient amount of damage to Tanks. If dedicated AV won't be getting the majority of their points from killing tanks then I think it'd be nice if they got rewarded for doing enough to deter them.

I didnt see any new sniper rifle :-(

For starters Im not a drop-ship pilot at all , but every role in Dust 514 should have its own little spot in the sun. Personally the drop ship should be very vulnerable against AV BUT Drop ship should be fitted with Super HMG that has the Normal HMG DPS and ROF but additionally have the range (huge range) . I mean its a HMG fitted to a vehicle so it should be a lot bigger and badder than the normal fatty HMG . THIS IS THE ROLE .......IT CAN EASILY DIE BUT BOY IT IS THE BEST MOBILE ANTI PERSONNEL WEAPON AROUND. If you decide to not go anti personnel then fit it with anti tank missiles ...two volleys of swarms of anti tank missiles and the tank should be dead. But you can only fit this type of anti tank on drop ships ... This would make the drop ship a whole lot more valuable on the field but at the same token paper thin against normal swarms.... remember drop ships has speed to outrun swarms...

My two cents ...

Dropships > General Infantry
Infantry AV > Dropships
Dropships > Tanks
Tanks > Infantry & Infantry AV

And where does a FG fit in this little equation?

Wait, hold on, what? You mean to say that you should NOT attack a tank while it has all of it's modules on? So you should wait until it's vulnerable to attack instead of attacking when it is at it's strongest? Whoa, that is a game changer, I mean it's totally unheard of to attack an enemy when they're vulnerable. /sarcasm

For starters Im not a drop-ship pilot at all , but every role in Dust 514 should have its own little spot in the sun. Personally the drop ship should be very vulnerable against AV BUT Drop ship should be fitted with Super HMG that has the Normal HMG DPS and ROF but additionally have the range (huge range) . I mean its a HMG fitted to a vehicle so it should be a lot bigger and badder than the normal fatty HMG . THIS IS THE ROLE .......IT CAN EASILY DIE BUT BOY IT IS THE BEST MOBILE ANTI PERSONNEL WEAPON AROUND. If you decide to not go anti personnel then fit it with anti tank missiles ...two volleys of swarms of anti tank missiles and the tank should be dead. But you can only fit this type of anti tank on drop ships ... This would make the drop ship a whole lot more valuable on the field but at the same token paper thin against normal swarms.... remember drop ships has speed to outrun swarms...

My two cents ...

Dropships > General Infantry
Infantry AV > Dropships
Dropships > Tanks
Tanks > Infantry & Infantry AV

As someone who has recently found love in swarms... that lock nerf is a bit too much. The damage sure, will take a few more hits. But you can bet you will be wasted instantly trying to dodge a tank from 175m... and those dropships are now most of the time out of lock range.

175m is way outside of any blaster range (I use stabilized, so I know), and that's when rendering starts to **** up. Plus, before, you could keep dropships out of the battle from most objectives with the range they had. now, you can only do one. Still think 250m is better, but unless they make the rendering work so I can see you shooting at me, then 175 it is.

Adapt or die