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Echo 1991
Titans of Phoenix
Damage LLC
974
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Posted - 2015.10.12 11:47:00 -
[841] - Quote
Lt Higgster wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:please read the whole thing. Overall a massive buff for dedicated AV, both infantry and vehicle. I did read the whole thing. Can you spell out the part where Swarms were buffed? If the damage was buffed in a way I'm not realizing, can you explain how that's supposed to help when I have half the range of a forge gun, and can't really hit anything I want to fire at anyhow? CCP Rattati wrote:Forge Gun is supposed to be the absolute best AV weapon. Shouldn't swarms, which have no ability to damage infantry at all, be the absolute best AV weapon? Logically, my ability to punt infantry suits with the forge means it's superior to swarms in multiple ways. Does the forge have tracking? the forge is a heavy weapon with loads of drawbacks and therefore packs the highest punch. I agree with Rattati the range needed to be nerfed. My CEO likes to run a Rep-Based Grimnes for transport and it reps at like 300 armor per second (I think). His ship gets taken out by basic swarms all the time, not because he's a bad pilot, far from it. It's because swarms don't really take any skill to use. You point, wait to lock on and then fire. Not like the forge gun where you have to lead the target and carefully aim to hit the target. When his dropship with XT missiles and complex mods costs him about 500k ISK per Dropship, basic swarms should have a hard time taking it out (in my opinion).
A basic swarm is going to struggle to kill any vehicle aside from a LAV.
Also if he's fitting proto turrets before fitting tank to actually survive, he is doing it so wrong. You can get a dropship to survive a fair bit of punishment but basic swarms are never killing a dropship unless the pilot just sits there.
Dropships need some love but if you are getting killed by a basic swarm then you are bad.
Wanna play eve?
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.10.12 13:43:00 -
[842] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:A basic swarm is going to struggle to kill any vehicle aside from a LAV.
Also if he's fitting proto turrets before fitting tank to actually survive, he is doing it so wrong. You can get a dropship to survive a fair bit of punishment but basic swarms are never killing a dropship unless the pilot just sits there.
Dropships need some love but if you are getting killed by a basic swarm then you are bad.
Basic Swarms do fine damage vs dropships. This coming from a guy with only Operation 3 and using it on a GalCom. Seriously, they work fine, the only reason they don't kill very often is because dropships are forced to flee immediately - which they can usually do - but that also means that I've just gotten 75-150WP and the dropship is out of the fight for 20-60 seconds.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Echo 1991
Titans of Phoenix
Damage LLC
976
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Posted - 2015.10.12 13:53:00 -
[843] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:A basic swarm is going to struggle to kill any vehicle aside from a LAV.
Also if he's fitting proto turrets before fitting tank to actually survive, he is doing it so wrong. You can get a dropship to survive a fair bit of punishment but basic swarms are never killing a dropship unless the pilot just sits there.
Dropships need some love but if you are getting killed by a basic swarm then you are bad. Basic Swarms do fine damage vs dropships. This coming from a guy with only Operation 3 and using it on a GalCom. Seriously, they work fine, the only reason they don't kill very often is because dropships are forced to flee immediately - which they can usually do - but that also means that I've just gotten 75-150WP and the dropship is out of the fight for 20-60 seconds.
I have all swarm skills at five and have been using them for the past 2 years, I know for a fact that a properly fit dropship is never, ever going to worry about basic swarms, 1300 damage is nothing with a 40% hardener and 200+ reps per second. You'll only take 780 damage per volley and by the time all of them have hit, you'll have repped most of it back.
Wanna play eve?
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Lt Higgster
Elysium's Electorate
12
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Posted - 2015.10.12 14:04:00 -
[844] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:
A basic swarm is going to struggle to kill any vehicle aside from a LAV.
Also if he's fitting proto turrets before fitting tank to actually survive, he is doing it so wrong. You can get a dropship to survive a fair bit of punishment but basic swarms are never killing a dropship unless the pilot just sits there.
Dropships need some love but if you are getting killed by a basic swarm then you are bad.
He never sits still, while he is not the best pilot in the skies, he is pretty decent and getting better. He usually flies teammates in and drops them at a point then leaves, but by the time he gets to the point he is already getting swarmed. The fact that swarms follow dropships until 400m means all someone needs to do is get all three shots off before the dropship is out of range.
"If we have to give these bastards our lives, WE GIVE THEM HELL BEFORE WE DO!"
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Devadander
Woodgrain Atari
846
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Posted - 2015.10.12 14:12:00 -
[845] - Quote
Lt Higgster wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:please read the whole thing. Overall a massive buff for dedicated AV, both infantry and vehicle. I did read the whole thing. Can you spell out the part where Swarms were buffed? If the damage was buffed in a way I'm not realizing, can you explain how that's supposed to help when I have half the range of a forge gun, and can't really hit anything I want to fire at anyhow? CCP Rattati wrote:Forge Gun is supposed to be the absolute best AV weapon. Shouldn't swarms, which have no ability to damage infantry at all, be the absolute best AV weapon? Logically, my ability to punt infantry suits with the forge means it's superior to swarms in multiple ways. Does the forge have tracking? the forge is a heavy weapon with loads of drawbacks and therefore packs the highest punch. I agree with Rattati the range needed to be nerfed. My CEO likes to run a Rep-Based Grimnes for transport and it reps at like 300 armor per second (I think). His ship gets taken out by basic swarms all the time, not because he's a bad pilot, far from it. It's because swarms don't really take any skill to use. You point, wait to lock on and then fire. Not like the forge gun where you have to lead the target and carefully aim to hit the target. When his dropship with XT missiles and complex mods costs him about 500k ISK per Dropship, basic swarms should have a hard time taking it out (in my opinion).
Swarms take little skill to use, a ton of skill to stay alive long enough to use them.
When I infantry and I see a guy with a huge brick on his shoulder, I target him first. Easy kill. Reds feel the same when I try to use them.
Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå
Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
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Balistyc Farshot
MONSTER SYNERGY
420
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Posted - 2015.10.12 16:59:00 -
[846] - Quote
Everyone talks about DMG and range without talking about my favorite part, the concussive effects of AV.
Can we perhaps have the short range version perform the same damage (Then we have less separation that way.) and focus more on improvements in concussion on the DS.
Then the long range swarms can be DS preferred deterrents without too much impact to the DMG profile. I would say make the close swarm into 2 projectiles - This will make anti tank easier because you won't expect to lose 2 missiles to collission with environment during dispersion.
Then make the long range swarm missiles really shake up the pilots. Then the most skilled pilots will roll and come out OK again, but most average pilots will lose their baring. The area denial would be huge and getting close to terrain would potentially be deadly. This might also help with LAVs because shaking them up flips them often.
So make the long range swarm a breach swarm, with 1 fewer shot in the clip, worse tracking. but with say 50% increase to the jostle.
The standard swarms get reduced to 2 missiles but with comparable dmg profiles. Reduce lockon range to 150m and leave the lockon time alone for them. Turn up the missile turn speed so it almost straight lines to the target.
"Dying with your rep tool out - the logi-flasher!"
Who hasn't been caught by a cute little female scout doing this?
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.10.12 17:07:00 -
[847] - Quote
(Lots of hypothetical maths ahead.)
TL;DR
STD, low SP-invested Swarms can definitely function as a deterrent and kill slow/careless pilots.
Full power PRO Swarms are why DS pilots complain so intensely about them, because it's a roughly equivalent SP investment but the difference in applied effort is huge.
Echo 1991 wrote:I have all swarm skills at five and have been using them for the past 2 years, I know for a fact that a properly fit dropship is never, ever going to worry about basic swarms, 1300 damage is nothing with a 40% hardener and 200+ reps per second. You'll only take 780 damage per volley and by the time all of them have hit, you'll have repped most of it back.
A hardened, ~200 Reps/sec is an Incubus with next to no tank.
Swarms do 284/1136 per volley; *1.2 (profile vs armour) *.6 (1 hardener) = 817.92 per volley at STD. That's without Proficiency, Damage Mods, Warbarge or Commando bonuses applying.
Swarms take a base 1.4s to lock-on, roughly .25s of re-lock delay and roughly 5s of travel time to an ADS at ~150m range. So by the time the first volley has reached the ADS, the second volley has launched (at ~1.7s of flight) and the third volley is launched as the first hits (~3.4s)
Assuming the travel time is much shorter (say 2.5s) then the Swarms arrive:
First volley launched (1.4s) [0 damage applied]
Second volley locked and released (~3.1s) [0 damage applied]
First volley hits (3.9s) [908.8/950 shields lost]
Third volley locked and launched (~4.8s)
Second volley hits (5.6s) [42 shields lost; 780.12 damage to armour applied]
Third volley hits (8.1s) [2.5s of regen (200*2.5=500); 280.12+817.92=1098.04 damage applied]
Reload finishes (9.4s) [1.3s of regen (200*1.3=260); 838.04 damage applied to armour]
So, without its shields gone, the Incubus will escape, assuming 200 reps/sec and an active hardener (which is very dependant on timing, unless they are coming in active, which is a whole debate unto itself regarding time in the area.)
Now, if that Incubus has not located the Swarmer (something rather likely, given the many issues concering many pilots) the Swarmer does much more damage. So will a STD (that is, 0 SP spent on Swarms whatsoever) Swarmer kill an Incubus with 200 r/s and hardened? Likely not.
What about with a few buffs?
STD Swarm (1136/volley) with 3% warbarge (1170.08) and one Complex Damage mod (1275.39)
vs Shields; 1020.31
vs Armour; 1530.47 (918.28 vs 1 Hardener)
Not to forget, that this is still a zero SP investment (I'd assume AUR-bought STD Swarms...for some reason.)
First volley launched (1.4s)
Second volley locked and released (~3.1s)
First volley hits (3.9s) [950 shields lost; 63.28 damage applied assuming active hardener]
Third volley locked and launched (~4.8s) [0.9s of regen; 0 armour damage applied]
Second volley hits (5.6s) [918.28 damage applied]
Third volley hits (8.1s) [2.5s of regen (500); 418.28+918.28=1336.56
Reload finishes (9.4s) [1.3s of regen (260); 1076.56 damage to armour]
Fourth volley locked and launched (10.8s)
Fifth volley locked and launched (12.5s)
Fourth volley hits (13.3s) [5.2s of regen (5.2*200=1040); 36.56+918.28=954.84]
Sixth volley locked and launched (14.2s)
Fifth volley hits (15s) [1.7s of regen (1.7*200=340); 614.84+918.28=1533.12]
Sixth volley hits (17.5s) [2.5s of regen (500); 1033.12+918.28=1951.4 damage to armour] - 2362-1951.4=410.6 damage shy of killing it.
So, from that I can see that a STD Swarm has a very low chance of killing a relatively highly invested Incubus (200 r/s is 2x Complex Light Repairs; a fairly large investment alongside the initial investment of the Dropship and Assault Dropship skills themselves.)
Is a 'properly fit' dropship going to worry about STD Swarms? Yes, because the above examples were not even close to the maximum potential damage
Using the above template, with the following modifiers (which are still not the maximum potential, considering it leaves out Proficiency entirely):
STD Swarm (1136), 3% warbarge (1170.8), 2x complex light damage mods (1275.39; 1374.11) and CalCom 5 (1511.52)
vs Shields: 1209.21
vs Armour: 1813.82 (1088.29 vs 1 hardener)
Also Rapid Reload 5 (4.5s reload -> 2.87s)
First volley launched (1.05s)
Second volley launched (2.4s)
- First volley hits (3.55s) (950 shields lost; 233.29 damage to armour)
Third volley launched (3.75s)
- Second volley hits (4.9s) [1.35s regen (1.35*200=270); 0+1088.29]
- Third volley hits (6.25s) [1.35s regen (270); 818.29+1088.29=1906.58
Reload finishes (6.62s)
Fourth volley launched (7.67s)
Fifth volley launched (9.02s)
- Fourth volley hits (10.17s) [3.92s regen (3.92*200=784); 1122.58+1088.29=2210.87 (151.13 away from death)]
Sixth volley launched (10.37s)
- Fifth volley hits (11.52s) [1.35s regen (270); 1940.87+1088.29=3029.16 (+667.16 needed to kill)]
- Sixth volley hits thin air.
Yes, STD Swarms are definitely capable of being dangerous, considering that the Incubus's hardeners were already active, and that the Swarmer didn't potential reload after stripping the shields (which would increase their applied armour damage substantially) and that this fit can exist on a roughly 20-40k suit. Add in Proficiency 5 to the above and the Incubus dies on the fourth volley - then you're actually looking at roughly similarly SP investment too, considering what an Incubus actually needs to be fitted 'properly' (properly, aka, approaching the most basic viable fits.)
When you consider Wiykomis, it gets kinda ridiculous:
Wiyrkomi (1248), 3% warbarge (1285), 2x complex light damage mods (1401.13; 1509.58), CalCom 5 (1660.54)
vs Shields: 1328.4
vs Armour, Prof 5; 2291.55 (1374.93 vs 1 hardener)
With the Wiyrkomi above, the Incubus dies on the third volley: that's at 6.25s-ish, because most good pilots know the rough tier they're facing when they get hit, because Wirkomis will break shields and still hurt a bunch.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.10.12 17:39:00 -
[848] - Quote
Regarding the above, I derped on the damage mod numbers, so they'll be fixed in a minute.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Echo 1991
Titans of Phoenix
Damage LLC
978
|
Posted - 2015.10.12 18:54:00 -
[849] - Quote
Basic damage is 260, so without dmg mods it does and with proficiency 842.4 per volley. Assuming no shields, and say 200 reps per second. First swarm hits, takes around 3 seconds to lock and hit. After the initial hit the dropship will almost be at the third rep cycle and only have taken 242.4 damage overall. If was a shorter travel time of say 2 seconds, it would take 442.4 damage per volley
At the end of all that, the dropship will have taken 1327.2 damage. Add the fact that it's gonna take maybe 3-4 seconds to reload and then fire again, you're looking close to 527-727 damage.
If shields are full, the first volley isn't even breaking the shields.
Even with the extra 20ish% damage the swarm could have with complex damage mods (assuming 3 of them) and warbarge thing it is highly unlikely that the dropship would be destroyed. Cos for one it would easily get out of there and two, it would take about 4 clips to actually kill the damn thing.
Wanna play eve?
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XxBlazikenxX
Pure Evil.
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
2
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Posted - 2015.10.12 18:56:00 -
[850] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:Basic damage is 260, so without dmg mods it does and with proficiency 842.4 per volley. Assuming no shields, and say 200 reps per second. First swarm hits, takes around 3 seconds to lock and hit. After the initial hit the dropship will almost be at the third rep cycle and only have taken 242.4 damage overall. If was a shorter travel time of say 2 seconds, it would take 442.4 damage per volley
At the end of all that, the dropship will have taken 1327.2 damage. Add the fact that it's gonna take maybe 3-4 seconds to reload and then fire again, you're looking close to 527-727 damage.
If shields are full, the first volley isn't even breaking the shields.
Even with the extra 20ish% damage the swarm could have with complex damage mods (assuming 3 of them) and warbarge thing it is highly unlikely that the dropship would be destroyed. Cos for one it would easily get out of there and two, it would take about 4 clips to actually kill the damn thing.
That would be assuming the pilot fit his drop ship correctly.
Director of Pure Evil.
Pure Evil. is mass recruiting, apply today and join a war of the Bleeding Sun vs everyone!
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Shamarskii Simon
The Hundred Acre Hood
423
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Posted - 2015.10.12 19:12:00 -
[851] - Quote
It's rare to have a dropship fit correctly due to the level of SP one must invest to create a correct fit.
Now, forget about something with constant rep, n step over to the python.
Let's see how the python holds up on paper. I'm genuinely intrigued
Forever ADS. Best role.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.10.12 21:42:00 -
[852] - Quote
Shamarskii Simon wrote:Let's see how the python holds up on paper. I'm genuinely intrigued
Give me a Python fit and I'll run the above 
[Edit: I may have been running the above situations with ADV numbers: I'm away from DUST so I'm going from memory - hence the derp on damage mods...]
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.10.12 22:05:00 -
[853] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:Basic damage is 260, so without dmg mods it does and with proficiency 842.4 per volley (with a hardener). Assuming no shields, and say 200 reps per second. First swarm hits, takes around 3 seconds to lock and hit. After the initial hit the dropship will almost be at the third rep cycle and only have taken 242.4 damage overall. If was a shorter travel time of say 2 seconds, it would take 442.4 damage per volley
At the end of all that, the dropship will have taken 1327.2 damage. Add the fact that it's gonna take maybe 3-4 seconds to reload and then fire again, you're looking close to 527-727 damage.
If shields are full, the first volley isn't even breaking the shields.
Even with the extra 20ish% damage the swarm could have with complex damage mods (assuming 3 of them) and warbarge thing it is highly unlikely that the dropship would be destroyed. Cos for one it would easily get out of there and two, it would take about 4 clips to actually kill the damn thing.
That's kind of a gross overstatement.
STD Swarms (260 per missile/ 1040 per volley), 3% warbarge (1071.2), first damage mod (1146.18), second damage mod (1215.18), third damage mod (1262.82), CalCom 5 (1389.1)
vs Shields : 1111.28
vs Armour: 1666.92 (Prof 5: 1916.96; 1150.18 vs 1 hardener)
So, assuming a 3s travel time (mostly because whole seconds are easier and I've gotten lazy!):
First volley launched (1.05s)
Second volley launced (2.4s)
Third volley launched (3.75s)
First volley hits (4.05s) [166.93 damage to armour past the shields]
Second volley hits (5.4s) [1.35s regen (270); 0+1150.18]
Third volley hits (6.75s) [1.35s regen (270); 880.18+1150.18= 2030.36]
Reload finishes (7.125s - no RR, but including Com) [0.375s regen (75); 1955.36]
Fourth volley launched (8.175s)
Fifth volley launched (9.525s)
Sixth volley launced (10.875s)
Fourth volley hits (11.175s) [4.05s regen (810); 1145.36+1150.18= 2295.54 (-66.46 from killing the Incubus)]
Fifth volley hits (12.525s) [1.35s regen (270); 2025.54+1150.18= dead Incubus.
Sixth volley hits (13.875s) - already killed.
Four clips is a massive overstatement. Though that said, the fight is hard to put on paper, because the distance between the two is going to change rapidly and often (the pilot maybe be circling, may be coming towards or going away from the Swarmer, there's likely a point where the Incubus either finds the Swarmer and engages or simply disengages. It's a very variable engagement.)
Still, a STD Swarmer with actual SP investment has a reasonable chance of destroying the target if they remain beyond the first clip, and if two STD Swarmers hit the DS then they're likely to go down in flames.
[Edit: and while the above example has things like CalCom and Prof 5, that's roughly the kind of investment that the ADS will be making with the ADS skill and turret skills/tanking skills.]
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Echo 1991
Titans of Phoenix
Damage LLC
979
|
Posted - 2015.10.12 23:08:00 -
[854] - Quote
I never said it was shooting an incubus, I know that swarms are stupid strong against them and as I've said ADS need a buff cos they are paper thin. A grimsnes or myron is nowhere near as squishy cos they have more fitting room.
So, as I was saying, it would take 4 clips for a standard swarm to kill a grimsnes.
Wanna play eve?
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Shamarskii Simon
The Hundred Acre Hood
424
|
Posted - 2015.10.12 23:09:00 -
[855] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Shamarskii Simon wrote:Let's see how the python holds up on paper. I'm genuinely intrigued Give me a Python fit and I'll run the above [Edit: I may have been running the above situations with ADV numbers: I'm away from DUST so I'm going from memory - hence the derp on damage mods...]
Typical python 2555
A hardener, enhanced extend, AB
Or a shield boost, hardener, enhanced extended
Full pro, so 40 sec delay shield boost, 45 sec AB, 45 sec hardener (enhanced nevertheless... Comp is heavy to fit)
Forever ADS. Best role.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.10.13 00:05:00 -
[856] - Quote
Shamarskii Simon wrote:Typical python 2555
A hardener, enhanced extend, AB
Or a shield boost, hardener, enhanced extended
Full pro, so 40 sec delay shield boost, 45 sec AB, 45 sec hardener (enhanced nevertheless... Comp is heavy to fit)
this is a "good" fit... One of the most general fits you'll see with the python... Also one of the only effective builds of the python... (well rounded) Other builds, (aka "special fit" to me) are very user specific and used for "special" conditions.
If i gave you one of those fits, it can skew the results that most people would encounter
Alright, we'll go for the Hardener/Booster/Extender, that seems the most versatile.
So it's 2555/960, Light Booster gives 900hp, we'll assume Hardener activated once the first volley hits/heard and perfect awareness that they're 1v1 (a stretch for any pilot, but still.) 4s/9s recharge/depleted delays, 224hp/s rate.
1.05s lock-on, 0.3s relock delay, 3s travel time.
STD Swarm (1040), Op 5 (1.05s lock), 2x PRO damage mods (1179.79), CalCom 5 (1297.77) (RR5/CC5; 2.87s reload)
vs Shields: 1038.22 (622.93 vs 1 hardener)
vs Armour: 1557.32
First volley launched (1.05s)
Second volley launched (2.4s)
Hardener triggered (3s)
Third volley launched (3.75s)
First volley hits (4.05s) [1038.22 damage]
Hardener activated (5s)
Second volley hits (5.4s) [1038.22+622.93=1661.15]
Reload finishes (6.62s)
Third volley hits (6.75s) [1661.15+622.93= 2284.08]
Fourth volley launched (7.97s)
Fifth volley launched (9.32s)
Sixth volley launched (10.67s)
Fourth volley hits (10.97s) [4.22s since last hit: (0.22*224 regen = 49.28); 2234.8+622.93= 2857.73; 756.83 armour damage; Booster triggered]
Booster activates (11.97s) [1655 shield damage]
Fifth volley hits (12.32s) [0.35s regen (0.35*224=78.4]; 1576.6+622.93= 2199.53]
Reload finishes (13.54s)
Sixth volley hits (13.67s) [2199.53+622.93= 756.83+668.65 armour damage = dead Python.]
The big thing here is when the Booster and Hardener get activated. If the Booster gets activated after the third volley hits, to maximise the triggered recharge, then the Python survives the sixth volley. My brain has begun to melt a bit, so I probably should've just done it that way initially...blarg.
Anyway, yeah, the Python can survive the beating better initially, but will be forced to endure the downtime of the active modules, which is a bigger factor in a long term skirmish overall, and a mistake (like triggering the Booster at the wrong time, or activating the Hardener late) is far more brutal. Python has far more finesse than the Incubus, due to the non-passive nature of its regen.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Shamarskii Simon
The Hundred Acre Hood
426
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Posted - 2015.10.13 00:47:00 -
[857] - Quote
Thanks!
But that's a heavy assumption... Precisely when and where the swarmer was... To use a python it takes real skill then
To me the best time to boost is right after the third volley hits.. The reload time will give a couple 224 more to sHP.. (Which you have recognized also)
Nevertheless, it's rough to use due to module execution... Which the average pilot has failed to master. Heck sometimes in the heat of battle i might flick off my hardener by accident when I try to get shield boost.
Now if capacitor was a thing............................... Hm?
Meh, i should stay on topic.
It shows a lot though, the python is in as long as it has a way to restart its recharge... Without shield boost but with hardeners it's a 5 volley (approx 12.32s) game
Forever ADS. Best role.
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Shamarskii Simon
The Hundred Acre Hood
426
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Posted - 2015.10.13 01:00:00 -
[858] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:I never said it was shooting an incubus, I know that swarms are stupid strong against them and as I've said ADS need a buff cos they are paper thin. A grimsnes or myron is nowhere near as squishy cos they have more fitting room.
So, as I was saying, it would take 4 clips for a standard swarm to kill a grimsnes.
Depends on the fit... A skilled pilot w/ a max rep (393.75) aHP/s grims can survive quite a long time...
Either never stop moving near top speed or.... Stop moving completely forward.
Now... That survival is based on when s/he "glitches" the swarms above the ship to make it spiral above, effectively increasing the amount of time one can rep.
Now... If they do it between volleys it's suicide... It'll be a +2k alpha strike firstly. secondly s/he has to commit to this one maneuver...
If executed correctly, it can increase life by 1 or 2 (rare chance) volleys.
Forever ADS. Best role.
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
495
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Posted - 2015.10.13 02:04:00 -
[859] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:
would love to have these thoughts spelled out in actual before and after numbers per each swarm variant.
Question for theorycrafting...can missile speed and/or flight range be adjusted between variants? or just lock range? consider everything to be adjustable. I just need to create a different projectile type if we would do a faster one. It is also possible to do one missile per swarm, if that's something interesting. Spreadsheet Time!
Made a thread to try to centralize discussion/theorycrafting on swarms and variants
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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Echo 1991
Titans of Phoenix
Damage LLC
980
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Posted - 2015.10.13 08:15:00 -
[860] - Quote
Shamarskii Simon wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:I never said it was shooting an incubus, I know that swarms are stupid strong against them and as I've said ADS need a buff cos they are paper thin. A grimsnes or myron is nowhere near as squishy cos they have more fitting room.
So, as I was saying, it would take 4 clips for a standard swarm to kill a grimsnes. Depends on the fit... A skilled pilot w/ a max rep (393.75) aHP/s grims can survive quite a long time... Either never stop moving near top speed or.... Stop moving completely forward. Now... That survival is based on when s/he "glitches" the swarms above the ship to make it spiral above, effectively increasing the amount of time one can rep. Now... If they do it between volleys it's suicide... It'll be a +2k alpha strike firstly. secondly s/he has to commit to this one maneuver... If executed correctly, it can increase life by 1 or 2 (rare chance) volleys.
I know it takes some skills to increase the survivability, and getting the hell out of there works too. I think standard dropships and ADS need a straight HP and fitting buff. Especially PG on armour ships, cos it's very tight on fitting.
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Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command
1
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Posted - 2015.10.13 08:58:00 -
[861] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:I know it takes some skills to increase the survivability, and getting the hell out of there works too. I think standard dropships and ADS need a straight HP and fitting buff. Especially PG on armour ships, cos it's very tight on fitting. The Myron is actually worse for fitting space. It lags a fair bit behind the Grimsnes right now and could definitely go with +5% PG.
On the other hand at some point I wouldn't know what to fit to its low slots...  |
Nirwanda Vaughns
1
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Posted - 2015.10.13 09:30:00 -
[862] - Quote
wondering if the base recoil on ARR's need changing. They still seem to be favored over most rifles and they're still outgunning the new Gallente Assault and on a caldari assault they're even better. We did a test last night and because of range of BAR vs ARR and on a caldari assault and non caldari suit the ARR still pipped the AR's
Making the base recoil a little worse off it may discourage the use on other suits but still be a viable close quarters for a skilled caldari but allowing for AR variants to still be king of CQC. The regular RR seems to be a nice balance atm, slight tweak to make it little less effective on other racial suits wouldn't hurt but it's nothing too worrying
Please fix my C-II hitpoints!! Jesus and I love you :)
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Echo 1991
Titans of Phoenix
Damage LLC
981
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Posted - 2015.10.13 10:14:00 -
[863] - Quote
Stefan Stahl wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:I know it takes some skills to increase the survivability, and getting the hell out of there works too. I think standard dropships and ADS need a straight HP and fitting buff. Especially PG on armour ships, cos it's very tight on fitting. The Myron is actually worse for fitting space. It lags a fair bit behind the Grimsnes right now and could definitely go with +5% PG. On the other hand at some point I wouldn't know what to fit to its low slots...
Either way, yo fit them properly they need PG mods. I think the engineering and electronics skills should provide a small bonus to fitting, maybe 2-3% per level, hell even 5% if it makes things easier for dropships. They really need some love.
Wanna play eve?
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.10.13 10:35:00 -
[864] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:Either way, yo fit them properly they need PG mods. I think the engineering and electronics skills should provide a small bonus to fitting, maybe 2-3% per level, hell even 5% if it makes things easier for dropships. They really need some love.
Amen to that. I'd kill to not be required to fit a PG Upgrade in my Python's low slot
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Sylwester Dziewiecki
510
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Posted - 2015.10.13 13:17:00 -
[865] - Quote
Minty Essence wrote:Scrambler Rifle has become almost unusable! Against armour medium suits (the majority of suits) I struggle to even kill basic suits with a prototype weapon + 3 damage mods before the gun overheats. It now seems that the rifle is a support weapon only, designed to strip the shields and let someone with a better weapon finish off the enemy (at least against armour tankers). The Scrambler Rifle did need a nerf, but a scalpel was needed, not a sledgehammer! :(
Also, grenade spam is getting ridiculous! Pretty sure a buff for them was in the wrong direction...
Edit: With the Scrambler Rifle, maybe a buff in heat dissipation/speed to reset after overheating would work well. If CCP want shots not to be spammed, a little time between each shot would then stop overheating if the heat level went down quickly.
Edit 2: After playing a few more matches, I can see that the ScR is completely useless other than against the odd shield tanker and/or light suit at long range. Can I get a remap so I can use CRs?
You will not be happy with CR - all the time, you do not have range on that weapon, as soon you scrach someone shield he run away and die from someone ales fire. It's like opposite weapon to SR as you described.
G Speed Scout. MM Logi/Assault.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
17
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Posted - 2015.10.13 14:37:00 -
[866] - Quote
Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote:Minty Essence wrote:Scrambler Rifle has become almost unusable! Against armour medium suits (the majority of suits) I struggle to even kill basic suits with a prototype weapon + 3 damage mods before the gun overheats. It now seems that the rifle is a support weapon only, designed to strip the shields and let someone with a better weapon finish off the enemy (at least against armour tankers). The Scrambler Rifle did need a nerf, but a scalpel was needed, not a sledgehammer! :(
Also, grenade spam is getting ridiculous! Pretty sure a buff for them was in the wrong direction...
Edit: With the Scrambler Rifle, maybe a buff in heat dissipation/speed to reset after overheating would work well. If CCP want shots not to be spammed, a little time between each shot would then stop overheating if the heat level went down quickly.
Edit 2: After playing a few more matches, I can see that the ScR is completely useless other than against the odd shield tanker and/or light suit at long range. Can I get a remap so I can use CRs? You will not be happy with CR - all the time, you do not have range on that weapon, as soon you scrach someone shield he run away and die from someone else fire. It's like opposite weapon to SR as you described.
Are the guns to blame or are HP pools?
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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idlerowl
Old-Type
Loud and Dawn
56
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Posted - 2015.10.13 15:54:00 -
[867] - Quote
Hothix is comming!!
It's good .
But I have a question , "ARR is not affected Cal-assault reduction bonus ? "
Particularly remarkable ADS.
It's do not change at all other suits.
I want you to give an effect if possible that Cal-assault reduction bonus to ARR . 
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XxBlazikenxX
Pure Evil.
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
3
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Posted - 2015.10.13 15:55:00 -
[868] - Quote
idlerowl wrote:Hothix is comming!! It's good . But I have a question , "ARR is not affected Cal-assault reduction bonus ? " Particularly remarkable ADS. It's do not change at all other suits. I want you to give an effect if possible that Cal-assault reduction bonus to ARR .
All rail rifles are affected, including Assault Rail Rifles.
Also, the hotfix has already dropped.
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Zan Azikuchi
G.R.A.V.E
The Ditanian Alliance
286
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Posted - 2015.10.13 21:33:00 -
[869] - Quote
Is it me? Or has shield's just been band-aided? Because shield competitiveness has not changed in the least amount this hotfix....
The bonus to the RR's is nice, but ineffective since any decent player could reasonably control the recoil, perhaps we should swap the bonus' between the gal's and the cal's.
When there is light, shadow's lurk and fear reign's... Yet by the blade of knight's, mankind, was given hope.
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Tri Stone
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
50
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Posted - 2015.10.14 02:25:00 -
[870] - Quote
Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote:Tri Stone wrote:Everything else looks beautiful but you are missing one thing, the balance on the OP active scanner equipment. Being discussed.
any way this discussion could involve the community in the form of a thread?
NewEarthOrder
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