in addition

I will never understand why a few of the popularity contest winners (CPM2) pushed for shield buffs to armor suits under the veil of "linearity". Things could still have been very linear with the armor and shield suits separated by more than just a second or two. Getting all the dropsuits on the same page in regards to not having numbers all over the place, sure. Buffing the recharge and delay of armor based suits? No entiendo.

The new values for the Gal Logi are now higher than the Min Logi have ever been. On what planet does that make sense?

the armor suit shield values are bs imo. was never expecting that. you could honestly use your shields far more effectively while armor tanking than before, despite the fact that theyll still be able to get reps.

my expectation at this point is to increase the penalty of shield extenders drastically to counter any use of them on armor suits

not true. because of how they handled the "depleted" delays vs the normal delays. an armor tanking suit would ignore the delay as they do currently, instead focusing on the dpleted delay which has been made shorter than the normal delay.

amarr assaults need only 1 shield regulator to reach minmatar base depleted delays.

gallente assault could use only 1 shield regulator to reach a 2.46 second depleted delay.

the issue is that you benefit more from losing all your shields than trying not to lose them. that seems backwards and biased towards helping armor tankers

without the incentive for keeping your shields from falling below zero, we degrade the value of shield regulators. so id say either to increase the penalty on extenders or buff the bonus on shield regulators' normal delay

Old Min Logi:
20 shield recharge per second
5 second recharge delay
6 second depleted delay
6 damage threshold

New Gal Logi
25 shield recharge per second
5 second recharge delay
4 second depleted delay
9 damage threshold

How in any way shape or form am I "talking crap"? Please, enlighten me.

Having to run 25m closer to an HAV or DS puts you 25m closer to the optimal range of RR and ScR. Infantry is the reason rational people like myself do not like the range nerf on swarms.

I am going to use proto fits, because they have the ranges and sliders that tell you what damage any given weapon does at what range.

Lets take a look at the Opimal ranges and damages of both

A Rail Rfile is 75m, effective range is 100m, We are concerned with 150m and Prototype stats.

Damage 75m : 397 base DPS, per round 51.70
Damage 100m: 139.19 base DPS, per round does 18.09
Damage at 150m: 92.8 base DPS, per round does 12.06 damage.
vs shields 10.86

Scrambler rifle:

Damage 75m : 715 base DPS, per round 71.5
Damage 100m: 243.75 base DPS, per round does 24.38
Damage at 150m: 92.8 base DPS, per round does 16.25 damage.
vs shields 22.43

At 150, sure you can be hit and take damage.

Compared to swarm fits:
412 (base shield) Minandos, at 150m Kalikiota RR needs 37.75 consecutive hits to break your shields,
Viziam needs 18.36

Calmandos (500 base shield) Kalikioota RR needs 46 consecutive hits to break shields Viziam needs 22.2 consecutive hits to break shields.

Whitout counting armor, both prototype weapons have to stop to either reload or deal with overheat. Thats if they hit you with every single shot they fire from 150m. Thats plenty of warning to stop looking at the sky.

At 150m, I think you are going to be alright from the troops. If anything I would be more worried about HAVs, who can sit still, take punishment and thier gunners have time to sight you. But only slightly worried.

And the fact you usually find out the swarmer is near by the first volly hitting you. Meaning the second volly is most likely in the air and you are getting ready to start locking on the third. With the hardner delay vehicles must have hardeners on before we know there is a reason for them. Again, i think even with swarm nerf, the overall bonus to potential av damage in the form of all explosives, melee, nk, ect. Nobody will be willing to bleed isk that fast. Tanking is dead. ads will only survive because flying is fun.

I assume you've tested swarms against weak points in a test environment. Approximately how often are you able to strike the weak point with swarms?

Let me check *gets lit up by a scrambler rifle in .5 seconds*...... Nope........

The wot? breach rail rifle? and it needs a buff you say?

Come to think of it... my proton vortex lightning grenade also needs a buff. Rattati can you buff that too!!!

It surpasses the SL-4 w/o damage mods on armor. (this is not including prof on the ARR)

Alright, let's use the kaal vs SL-4 (since i remember the values from the top of my head)

Kaal: 34.1 damage.
SL-4: 40 damage.

Kaal at prof 5: 34.1*1.25 = 42.625 damage.
SL-4 at prof 0, damage profile included: 40*1.1 = 44 damage.

However, i said at base damage (40). The difference is 2.625 damage. Nevertheless, the magsec has a faster RoF than the ARR. This is why i say the pro magsec surpasses the adv ARR.

Now, i don't remember the RoF off the top of my head (cannot calculate dps then) but for a sidearm it hits with results comparable to the SL-4. Only lacking in range (approx 30 meters less)

Knowing the pro magsec will do officer level damage (37.4) let's do it again.

Kaal vs SL-4
Kaal damage: 37.4
SL-4 damage: 40

Kaal damage at prof 5: 37.4*1.25 = 46.75
SL-4 damage comparable to Kaal damage (prof 2) 40 * 1.16 = 46.4 damage.

The kaal at prof 5 will now surpass an Ishu w/o prof.

Along with faster RoF, i believe it will become OP.

I see where you are coming from though, nevertheless.

Edit: damage falloff begins around 44 meters, after about 55 damage attenuation is too high (56% efficiency against shield). (imo, people could say otherwise about it's effective range)

I'm saying for a sidearm it's very effective already. I'm not exactly saying "magsec > ARR" there's just nothing else to compare it to. I'm well aware this is a sidearm I'm comparing to a light weapon. So the obvious thing of range being worse -- is pretty apparent.

You do have a point though, paper doesn't equal reality... But going off CCP overdoing things sometimes, i feel doing both charge time and a significant damage increase is too much at once.

I feel like it's one or the other, then if it doesn't work out add both.

In the end, i guess we can only wait and see. Once it's in, we'll discuss again? :D

I agree with Rattati the range needed to be nerfed. My CEO likes to run a Rep-Based Grimnes for transport and it reps at like 300 armor per second (I think). His ship gets taken out by basic swarms all the time, not because he's a bad pilot, far from it. It's because swarms don't really take any skill to use. You point, wait to lock on and then fire. Not like the forge gun where you have to lead the target and carefully aim to hit the target. When his dropship with XT missiles and complex mods costs him about 500k ISK per Dropship, basic swarms should have a hard time taking it out (in my opinion).

Basic Swarms do fine damage vs dropships. This coming from a guy with only Operation 3 and using it on a GalCom. Seriously, they work fine, the only reason they don't kill very often is because dropships are forced to flee immediately - which they can usually do - but that also means that I've just gotten 75-150WP and the dropship is out of the fight for 20-60 seconds.

Depends on the fit... A skilled pilot w/ a max rep (393.75) aHP/s grims can survive quite a long time...

Either never stop moving near top speed or.... Stop moving completely forward.
Now... That survival is based on when s/he "glitches" the swarms above the ship to make it spiral above, effectively increasing the amount of time one can rep.



Now... If they do it between volleys it's suicide... It'll be a +2k alpha strike firstly. secondly s/he has to commit to this one maneuver...

If executed correctly, it can increase life by 1 or 2 (rare chance) volleys.

The Myron is actually worse for fitting space. It lags a fair bit behind the Grimsnes right now and could definitely go with +5% PG.

On the other hand at some point I wouldn't know what to fit to its low slots...

It is obvious you don't play scout. Scouting requires the most skill of any role, with logis being a close second.

It impossible to be completely unscannable.

It is possible to be mostly invisible, save for a slight blurring and the red reticle, for a limited amount of time if you stand still, unarmed. Providing you aren't scanned. Is it easy to use such a state to be effective on the battlefield? Sometimes, yes. Most of the time, no.

And how would knowing for sure you are unscannable make any difference?

Not being scanned is a prerequisite of stealth gameplay. To use stealth you assume you won't be scanned. If you do get scanned, stealth goes out of the window. The chance of being scanned doesn't affect how you play if you are using a suit that relies on stealth.

I don't know about you, but even a min scout with 3 complex damps doesn't let you avoid gal logi focused scans. And running 2 damps with 3 low slots really affects your survivability and utility, because when you don't run damps on a scout, the only thing you see is "YOU HAVE BEEN SCANNED"