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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.18 00:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
First of all I want show my sincerest gratitude to everyone that provided feedback in the last thread for staying on point with your concise and critical thinking. Since that rough draft, some aspects of that proposal have been taken, modified, or outright removed and new elements have been introduced, inspired by your feedback.
Optional Reading:
Quote:I want to address some confusion that cropped up last time: The current goal is to created a design for dropsuits' base stats, in regards to shield tanking, that makes it easier to balance the suits and modules as a whole. Shield modules differ compared to armor modules in that they are percentage based gains/losses as opposed to hard-set values. This makes it difficult to balance the suits and shield tanking in general as any changes have overarching, dynamic effects across the entire spectrum.
To alleviate that, a standardized design philosophy must be put into play that we can use to predict the effects of changes in the future. Please note that, in this proposal, there is a strong emphasis to retain the theme of EHP to Speed Ratio hallmarked by CCP Rattati that has had success.
One glance at the correlation between Shield Recharge and Shield Recharge Delay across all suits (race and role) will show just how confusing and chaotic the current system (if it can be called that) is. There seems to be little actual design and this has caused some serious problems. Shield Modules work differently for different suits and there is little to no consistency among them.
Taking feedback from the previous thread (Commandos need a general buff, Scouts need to retain high regen, etc) the optimal solution was to use opposite extremes as the range for our values. Using the Caldari Scout and the Amarr Sentinel as those extremes, with racial and role-based combat philosophies, the decision came to this: http://i.imgur.com/JXB9XIZ.png. This may look confusing at first, but when the racial suits are color-coded you'll begin to see a much more concise pattern and flow: http://i.imgur.com/Iavlf2Z.png.
Upon glancing over the second chart, with indicated flow for each race, you will notice that there is a pattern. Arranged from best shield tanking capability to worst, we see two paths:
RACE: Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente > Amarr
ROLE: Scout > Assault > Logistics > Commando > Sentinel
For a more in depth analysis at the numbers, you can check out this screenshot of the spreadsheet with my considerations/notes on the nuances: http://i.imgur.com/eshWaQK.jpg
Again, there is a strong emphasis to retain the standards brought on by the recent "EHP to Speed Ratio" design mentioned above. With this proposal, many suits will receive a shield buff in some way, shape. The nuances/considerations of all of this will be posted later on to help explain the thinking. What is important is that this proposal will work to create a standardized design form that will allow us to accurately assume how certain suits will perform before nerfs/buffs to shield modules and slot layouts are even considered, rather than trying to make sense of the chaos that is the current system.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.18 00:44:00 -
[2] - Quote
Considerations and Nuances
The nuances are being posted separately as they are not quite the main issue being addressed or the methodology on how to go about that. They are considerations from this proposal, specifically, that are being anticipated. The overarching theme remains: Shield Tanking must have some form of design that can be easily changed in the future if they are to ever be competitive.
Also, you will notice that Depleted Delay was left out of this proposal. This was intentional as there are some conundrums and issues that need a bit more time to consider before anything can be done about them, none more obvious than the Caldari Sentinel's notorious one second depleted delay. There is also the thinking that once the player reaches depleted delay, as a shield tanker, they are usually dead anyway. There will likely be some more thought put into this at a later time but at the moment it has little to do with the thread topic of standardized, designed, and easy to change shield tanking.
Note that the Caldari Scout and Caldari Sentinel remain un-changed. Any functionality you had with them now would be retained in this proposal. The only suits that received nerfs are:
Minmatar Sentinel, which received a slight nerf to delay but also received a slight buff to shield recharge
Amarr Scout, which had a similar treatment
Amarr Sentinel, which received a slight nerf to shield delay
Bear in mind that the latter two are armor tanks and likely do not rely on shields anyway, therefore the concerns should be limited as they are minor changes and there are better suits for that job anyhow.
Another factor is the increase in capability of the Minmatar Assault, which I'm certain a lot of you will be screaming at your monitors for reform immediately. This is an isolated outlier among the entire paradigm and, as you can see in the spreadsheet screenshot, is noted and considered. It is, however, a problem that can be resolved in other areas. Perhaps the suit's fitting can be adjusted to compensate for increase in regen capability, just as an example.
The last consideration is the tricky problem of the Logistics, more specifically where they should fall in the paradigm. There is some consideration to have them follow, strictly, the EHP to Speed Ratio pattern and have a higher regen than Assaults. For the sake of this proposal however, which focuses exclusively on standardization and not the nuances, it is perhaps best to consider this as a part of the whole.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
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Posted - 2015.09.18 02:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
Just stopping by to state that I fully support a unified method just as I did with the speed to eHP ratio.
The presence of a unified method is vital to attaining and polishing the game.
As with the speed to eHP ratio the particulars are up for negotiation so long as the method is evenly and universally applied.
In this case we have several clear premises at work
- Armor and shields should exist within an inverse ratio (if you're good at one you're bad at the other)
- The speed to eHP ratio should be maintained
- Regen and raw HP should exist within an inverse ratio (if you have a lot of one you generally have less of the other)
- Racial combat paradigms should be applied as one axis in correspondence with frame size/role as the other axis
With questions of balance within role the race will largely define strengths and weaknesses.
With questions of balance between frame sizes/roles the guide line properly will be higher base HP equals lower base regen and vice versa.
To highlight this in one trifecta of examples which are often raised as a point of concern.
Commandos having higher base HP than medium frames will have lower average regen - by race - than their medium frame counterparts.
This moves us to the question of logi and assault raw HP vs base regen values. I will reiterate here what I stated in the speed vs eHP thread, either role could hold either end of that balance so long as neither role holds both ends.
(for those who care I lean more towards logi being closer to scouts on the spectrum as they are not dedicated slayers, but legitimate cases can be made for either method and so long as neither Logi nor Assault has best of both worlds in buffer HP and native regen things will be fine).
While this has been my firm stance since the speed to eHP thread and even prior to that I am as ever open to more discussion on the subject, please feel free to direct any questions my way that you would like.
Cheers,
Cross
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Avallo Kantor
869
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 04:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
A point that I feel also needs to be reiterated is the general design philosophy of shield v armor tanking styles in DUST (note these differ than that of EVE online)
Armor tanks are meant to be "stand your ground" brawler style tanking. They can soak more damage than any other tanking style at the cost of mobility. They will, assuming equal everything else, be able to come out on top of a straight up shoot out due to their higher hp buffer, and the -slight- hp they recover during combat. They make up for this in lack of mobility and slow repair rates (that can go through being shot, and can be supported by logistical aid). All in all, this is the tanking style for point defense.
Shield tanks are meant for skirmish warfare, and for popping in and out of cover. They trade raw buffer hp for ease of mobility (both in racial frame, and the modules lack of speed detriments) and the best in class regen rates when out of combat. They excel at moving about the map, taking advantage of positioning, and with the right use of cover they can easily regain their full tank in a few seconds.
On this end, Caldari work much as you would think a hi-tech version of the modern soldier does. They do not soak bullets, but instead make smart use of cover, and long range weapons to be able to strike outside of enemy ranges and then duck behind cover to recover shields in the time it takes to reload.
Minmatar meanwhile are all about high mobility and they use shields to allow them unfettered movement across the map while offering some degree of protection. They are able to flank and use the element of surprise to their advantage, relying on superior mobility to keep them out of the bullets way.
The goal here is not to change this overarching design philosophy, although you are free to argue against them. We should be mindful of these high-concept goals when redesigning shields so that both races still maintain their racial flair and skill sets without trying to nerf armor or turn shields into blue armor tanks.
"Mind Blown" - CCP Rattati
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Anmol Singh
G0DS AM0NG MEN
942
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 04:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
For now, I really like the idea. The only issue I see is Assaults and Scouts are too close regen wise since they are only separated by 5 HP/s shield and no delay difference.
Example: I would like
Cal Scout: 50 regen 3 sec delay
Cal Assault: 40 regen 4 sec delay
Cal Logi: 35 regen 4 sec delay
Cal Commando: 30 regen 4 sec delay (one second depleted because that is what makes them special)
Cal Sentinel: 30 regen 4 sec delay (one second depleted delay because that is what makes them special)
This is just for Caldari though. I have other opinions on the other races which I will post tomorrow.
Sagaris lover!!!
Commando <3
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Anmol Singh
G0DS AM0NG MEN
942
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Posted - 2015.09.18 04:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:
Regen and raw HP should exist within an inverse ratio (if you have a lot of one you generally have less of the other)
The ratio thing doesn't really work with armor because armor has set repair values unless you're talking about just base stat values.
The already exists with base stats. Shield Scouts have most regen and it goes down from there.
Except for Cal Commando having way worse regen than it's Sentinel counterpart.
Sagaris lover!!!
Commando <3
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Avallo Kantor
869
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Posted - 2015.09.18 04:52:00 -
[7] - Quote
Anmol Singh wrote:Cross Atu wrote:
Regen and raw HP should exist within an inverse ratio (if you have a lot of one you generally have less of the other)
The ratio thing doesn't really work with armor because armor has set repair values unless you're talking about just base stat values. The already exists with base stats. Shield Scouts have most regen and it goes down from there. Except for Cal Commando having way worse regen than it's Sentinel counterpart.
By what they mean by ratio is how much regen you can have vs how much raw hp.
Looking just at armor, you have to compare plates vs repair modules. For armor you have a terrible conversion rate. (Compare plate of any level vs rep of same level. You have some absurd ratio of hp to regen rate)
Meanwhile shields have less ehp overall and thus benefit from FAR higher regen rate out of combat, and let us be honest, the armor rep through combat is not enough to be a factor in a majority of cases.
"Mind Blown" - CCP Rattati
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Sequal's Back
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.18 05:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
Just saw the spreadsheet. Loved it !
I'd love to see these numbers IG 
Bring your daughter... TO THE SLAUGHTER !
- Sequal Rise
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Leovarian L Lavitz
TRAILS AND TRIBULATIONS
No Context
1
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Posted - 2015.09.18 05:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
What about basic frames?
Youtube: Dust 514 - You should Have Worn Proto
One V One Emperor
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
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Posted - 2015.09.18 06:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
Avallo Kantor wrote:Anmol Singh wrote:Cross Atu wrote:
Regen and raw HP should exist within an inverse ratio (if you have a lot of one you generally have less of the other)
The ratio thing doesn't really work with armor because armor has set repair values unless you're talking about just base stat values. The already exists with base stats. Shield Scouts have most regen and it goes down from there. Except for Cal Commando having way worse regen than it's Sentinel counterpart. By what they mean by ratio is how much regen you can have vs how much raw hp. Looking just at armor, you have to compare plates vs repair modules. For armor you have a terrible conversion rate. (Compare plate of any level vs rep of same level. You have some absurd ratio of hp to regen rate) Meanwhile shields have less ehp overall and thus benefit from FAR higher regen rate out of combat, and let us be honest, the armor rep through combat is not enough to be a factor in a majority of cases.
This was more to contextualize armor tanking vs shield tanking.
It does remain true within the tanking styles as well, but contextualized by the tanking style itself.
In other words we're not aiming to directly weigh shield regen vs armor regen as despite both being regen they clearly carry a differing portion of the load within their respective tanking style.
It should also be noted that this thread and the posts here in are aimed at improvements to shield tanking not alterations to armor tanking. Such alterations indeed come later on, but they are cast as a consideration after improvements to shield tanking so as to maintain the iterative balance approach.
As such in the context of this thread we generally needn't concern ourselves with armor tanking much at all.
Cheers,
Cross
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Sequal's Back
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.18 06:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:It should also be noted that this thread and the posts here in are aimed at improvements to shield tanking not alterations to armor tanking. Such alterations indeed come later on, but they are cast as a consideration after improvements to shield tanking so as to maintain the iterative balance approach.
Armor is actually in a good state right now and doesn't need to be changed IMO. Why alterate something that doesn't need a fix ? This is pretty much what CCP used to do before and we know where it lead us.
If it's not broken, don't fix it.
Bring your daughter... TO THE SLAUGHTER !
- Sequal Rise
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.09.18 06:36:00 -
[12] - Quote
The reason for the "Notorious" 1 second delay on the Caldari sentinel is to make up for the lack of any external repair for shields. Armor tanks can get away with stacking full health and no repair because they can rely on othe rplayers to do the repairing for them; shield tanks have only themselves to rely on their repair. It's to ensure that the Caldari Sentinel is not completely outclassed by the other sentinels who can stack armor better than it.
Other than that, I am completely for this. The Caldari commando especially needs some good loving in the shield department. And it does fix the chaos of the current... whatever it is. Bravo Aeon, you done good work.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Zan Azikuchi
G.R.A.V.E
The Ditanian Alliance
257
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Posted - 2015.09.18 06:57:00 -
[13] - Quote
Anmol Singh wrote:For now, I really like the idea. The only issue I see is Assaults and Scouts are too close regen wise since they are only separated by 5 HP/s shield and no delay difference.
Example: I would like
Cal Scout: 50 regen 3 sec delay
Cal Assault: 40 regen 4 sec delay
Cal Logi: 35 regen 4 sec delay
Cal Commando: 30 regen 4 sec delay (one second depleted because that is what makes them special)
Cal Sentinel: 30 regen 4 sec delay (one second depleted delay because that is what makes them special)
This is just for Caldari though. I have other opinions on the other races which I will post tomorrow.
Please, I don't want another Magsec SMG incident, if you're that picky about numbers, bring scout shield regen up, not down. Also, these numbers are perfect (The CPM proposed numbers I mean). +1 from me!
When there is light, shadow's lurk and fear reign's... Yet by the blade of knight's, mankind, was given hope.
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Francois Sanchez
Prima Gallicus
533
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Posted - 2015.09.18 07:40:00 -
[14] - Quote
I really like the proposed numbers with the consistent shape of the curve.
About the Caldari sentinel, the 1 second deplepted recharge delay is essential. Cal sent doesn't have the armour to be repped effectively or to keep fighting once the shield goes down, and it hasn't the Minmatar speed to try to run away.
If you remove the super small deplepted delay, a single flux grenade means a dead Cal sent.
Cal sent is fine as it is now and shouldn't be touched. |
Sequal's Back
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.18 08:27:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ho btw, when ?
Bring your daughter... TO THE SLAUGHTER !
- Sequal Rise
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Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command
1
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Posted - 2015.09.18 08:58:00 -
[16] - Quote
- I like the method. Implementing a design system for shield recharge vs. shield recharge delay is a good idea.
- I agree with the order Sentinel - Commando - Logistics - Assault - Scout
- Thumbs up on the overall method and principle. Well done.
Balancing thoughts (minor details):
- Are you certain that native suit regen needs to top out at 50 hp/s? That is a lot, especially considering that a complex energizer adds 65% to that. I'd propose a maximum native suit regen of 40 hp/s. Everything else then scales according to your system.
- As it is: Are you certain this isn't an overbuff for the Caldari Assault? Protofits says you'd be able to make a ck.0 regen at 75 hp/s after less than a second while having over 800 ehp. That's tough. |
Gaius Calinus
Incarnation Soldiers
34
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Posted - 2015.09.18 10:00:00 -
[17] - Quote
Stefan Stahl wrote:
- As it is: Are you certain this isn't an overbuff for the Caldari Assault? Protofits says you'd be able to make a ck.0 regen at 75 hp/s after less than a second while having over 800 ehp. That's tough.
That's fully ok, a scrambler / combat rifle / plasma rifle will still cut you to pieces within 2 sec., even with your 800 ehp and 75hp/s after a sec  , we're talking here about shields...
No matter how fast your shields regen, you're dead before your mods even react.
I admit, it's a step forward, but not enough IMO
Hail Caldari !!
Hail to the Caldari State !!!
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Zaria Min Deir
Resheph Interstellar Strategy
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.18 10:26:00 -
[18] - Quote
Going to just borrow Cross's words, as he said what I would have, only better.
Cross Atu wrote:The presence of a unified method is vital to attaining and polishing the game. As with the speed to eHP ratio the particulars are up for negotiation so long as the method is evenly and universally applied. In this case we have several clear premises at work
- Armor and shields should exist within an inverse ratio (if you're good at one you're bad at the other)
- The speed to eHP ratio should be maintained
- Regen and raw HP should exist within an inverse ratio (if you have a lot of one you generally have less of the other)
- Racial combat paradigms should be applied as one axis in correspondence with frame size/role as the other axis
Very much this.
Cross Atu wrote:
the question of logi and assault raw HP vs base regen values. I will reiterate here what I stated in the speed vs eHP thread, either role could hold either end of that balance so long as neither role holds both ends.
Wanted to just reiterate this part. Most people seem to agree that scouts should have the highest regen, as they have the lowest HP. Same with commandos vs assaults, commandos have more HP than assaults, so they ought to have less regen. Why should this logic not be applied to logistics suits as well?
zariamindeir on Twitter&Gmail
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Kevall Longstride
DUST University
Ivy League
3
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 11:01:00 -
[19] - Quote
There's a reason why I'm not the theory crafter in the CPM, I'm the NPE and UI guy.
But even I understand this and support the efforts made by my fellow CPM to fix past mistakes. As usual Cross says it much better than me but thank you once again for giving such positive and constructive feedback on this issue. o7
CPM 1&2 Member
CEO of DUST University
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.18 13:29:00 -
[20] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:For a more in depth analysis at the numbers, you can check out this screenshot of the spreadsheet with my considerations/notes on the nuances: http://i.imgur.com/eshWaQK.jpg
Big buff to Gal Assault? Didn't see that one coming.
Do you really think that today's GalAssault needs a buff to shield performance?
A simple Yes/No will suffice. |
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.18 13:29:00 -
[21] - Quote
A few notes:
1) Caldari Sentinel Shield Recharge Depleted Delay: As a reminder, this thread is -not- about Depleted Delay values. That will have to be addressed after a standardized form is illustrated on so that we have something to work off of. I appreciate the feedback and concerns but it's best addressed when the time comes :)
2) There are no plans, proposals, or current considerations to change armor. I think the majority, if not the whole of the CPM, is in agreement that to buff shields and nerf armor at the same time would be a bad move (pendulum balancing). We are also, to my knowledge, in agreement that shields need to be brought up and armor not brought down to reinforce the high TTK that Dust 514 is known for. To nerf armor at the moment would not fix anything and only further institute the broken shield design (of which I use that term loosely).
3) The next iteration of this proposal will switch Assault and Logistics on the design path. Logistics should reasonably have a higher regen than Assaults, lacking Assaults' EHP and further constituting a relationship with the EHP to Speed Ratio design format.
4) I cannot comment on Basic Frames at the moment, but I will look into creating a proposal with which they would follow a similar spectrum. They likely may not be as powerful, or more powerful, due to their lack of specialization. It is too early to tell without additional research.
Thanks for the feedback ^_^
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.18 13:33:00 -
[22] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:For a more in depth analysis at the numbers, you can check out this screenshot of the spreadsheet with my considerations/notes on the nuances: http://i.imgur.com/eshWaQK.jpg Big buff to Gal Assault? Didn't see that one coming. Do you really think that today's GalAssault needs a buff to shield performance? A simple Yes/No will suffice.
There's an additional proposal (that would have to come after standardization of course) to change the Caldari Assault and Gallente Assault's base HP values to correlate more with their combat philosophy. More specifically, taking away subsidiary tank HP and giving it to primary tank HP. Caldari shields are 275 and armor is 155, with Gallente being a mirror of this in it's respective areas. So, you'd more likely see a Gallente Assault with 330 armor and 100 shields after that change.
This is just one additional proposal, of which there are many that are being considered.
However, regardless of what proposal it is, it would be something that would have to come after standardization took place as it would be chaotic to balance otherwise. There are going to be some oddities and outliers in this system that will need more refined work but the baseline/foundation must first be established.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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argel999
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
16
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Posted - 2015.09.18 13:35:00 -
[23] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:For a more in depth analysis at the numbers, you can check out this screenshot of the spreadsheet with my considerations/notes on the nuances: http://i.imgur.com/eshWaQK.jpg Big buff to Gal Assault? Didn't see that one coming. Do you really think that today's GalAssault needs a buff to shield performance? A simple Yes/No will suffice. There's an additional proposal (that would have to come after standardization of course) to change the Caldari Assault and Gallente Assault's base HP values to correlate more with their combat philosophy. More specifically, taking away subsidiary tank HP and giving it to primary tank HP. Caldari shields are 275 and armor is 155, with Gallente being a mirror of this in it's respective areas. So, you'd more likely see a Gallente Assault with 330 armor and 100 shields after that change. This is just one additional proposal, of which there are many that are being considered. However, regardless of what proposal it is, it would be something that would have to come after standardization took place as it would be chaotic to balance otherwise. There are going to be some oddities and outliers in this system that will need more refined work but the baseline/foundation must first be established.
Sounds pretty good CPM Aeon Amadi o7
...SLAYER...
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
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Posted - 2015.09.18 14:17:00 -
[24] - Quote
Sequal's Back wrote:Cross Atu wrote:It should also be noted that this thread and the posts here in are aimed at improvements to shield tanking not alterations to armor tanking. Such alterations indeed come later on, but they are cast as a consideration after improvements to shield tanking so as to maintain the iterative balance approach. Armor is actually in a good state right now and doesn't need to be changed IMO. Why alterate something that doesn't need a fix ? This is pretty much what CCP used to do before and we know where it lead us. If it's not broken, don't fix it.
Sorry late night typing.
Sentence should read such iterations may come later on if needed
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.18 14:19:00 -
[25] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:For a more in depth analysis at the numbers, you can check out this screenshot of the spreadsheet with my considerations/notes on the nuances: http://i.imgur.com/eshWaQK.jpg Big buff to Gal Assault? Didn't see that one coming. Do you really think that today's GalAssault needs a buff to shield performance? A simple Yes/No will suffice. There's an additional proposal (that would have to come after standardization of course) to change the Caldari Assault and Gallente Assault's base HP values to correlate more with their combat philosophy. More specifically, taking away subsidiary tank HP and giving it to primary tank HP. Caldari shields are 275 and armor is 155, with Gallente being a mirror of this in it's respective areas. So, you'd more likely see a Gallente Assault with 330 armor and 100 shields after that change. This is just one additional proposal, of which there are many that are being considered. However, regardless of what proposal it is, it would be something that would have to come after standardization took place as it would be chaotic to balance otherwise. There are going to be some oddities and outliers in this system that will need more refined work but the baseline/foundation must first be established.
"Unified Theories" sound good, but I can't get behind the proposed buffs in the HP department. These will only lead to a widening of the performance gap between both Vet & Newbro and HP-oriented & Non-HP-oriented playstyles. Both of these are bad for Dust, and I can't see how the benefits of this proposal will outweigh the drawbacks.
Chromosome had its flaws, but it was a good time to be a newbro. They bumbled about, just like today. They dropped like flies, just like today. But when a newbro got the drop on a vet, he had damn good odds of killing that vet. Prototype or not. HP tanked or not. I fell in love with this game as a newbro in Chromosome. Call it nostalgia, but in my opinion, that is the direction we should be heading in if we want better NPE, higher retention rates and a healthier playerbase:
* Higher odds of success when outplaying/outpositioning one's opponent
* Fewer get-out-of-jail-free cards afforded by HP tank
* A better balanced playing field for non-HP-oriented playstyles
Player thinking, planning and skill should play a part in any shooter. And in a shooter with as many loadout options as Dust, different playstyles and configurations should be encouraged rather than marginalized in the wake of King HP. When a newbro gets the drop on one of us and manages to keep his shots on target, we owe that newbro good odds of success. Spin-and-win is an NPE killer, and reinforcing the predominant meta by slowing TTK will ultimately amount to another free pass for vets (and another kick-in-the-teeth for those of us who don't stack HP).
That's my two cents, at least.
PS: The correct answer to my question, was "No. GalAssaults are not in need of a shield buff." |
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
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Posted - 2015.09.18 14:38:00 -
[26] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:A few notes:
1) Caldari Sentinel Shield Recharge Depleted Delay: As a reminder, this thread is -not- about Depleted Delay values. That will have to be addressed after a standardized form is illustrated on so that we have something to work off of. I appreciate the feedback and concerns but it's best addressed when the time comes :)
2) There are no plans, proposals, or current considerations to change armor. I think the majority, if not the whole of the CPM, is in agreement that to buff shields and nerf armor at the same time would be a bad move (pendulum balancing). We are also, to my knowledge, in agreement that shields need to be brought up and armor not brought down to reinforce the high TTK that Dust 514 is known for. To nerf armor at the moment would not fix anything and only further institute the broken shield design (of which I use that term loosely).
3) The next iteration of this proposal will switch Assault and Logistics on the design path. Logistics should reasonably have a higher regen than Assaults, lacking Assaults' EHP and further constituting a relationship with the EHP to Speed Ratio design format.
4) I cannot comment on Basic Frames at the moment, but I will look into creating a proposal with which they would follow a similar spectrum. They likely may not be as powerful, or more powerful, due to their lack of specialization. It is too early to tell without additional research.
Thanks for the feedback ^_^
 Just quoting this important information so that everyone is more likely to see and read it 
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Aeon Amadi
12
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 15:00:00 -
[27] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:For a more in depth analysis at the numbers, you can check out this screenshot of the spreadsheet with my considerations/notes on the nuances: http://i.imgur.com/eshWaQK.jpg Big buff to Gal Assault? Didn't see that one coming. Do you really think that today's GalAssault needs a buff to shield performance? A simple Yes/No will suffice. There's an additional proposal (that would have to come after standardization of course) to change the Caldari Assault and Gallente Assault's base HP values to correlate more with their combat philosophy. More specifically, taking away subsidiary tank HP and giving it to primary tank HP. Caldari shields are 275 and armor is 155, with Gallente being a mirror of this in it's respective areas. So, you'd more likely see a Gallente Assault with 330 armor and 100 shields after that change. This is just one additional proposal, of which there are many that are being considered. However, regardless of what proposal it is, it would be something that would have to come after standardization took place as it would be chaotic to balance otherwise. There are going to be some oddities and outliers in this system that will need more refined work but the baseline/foundation must first be established. "Unified Theories" sound good, but I can't get behind the proposed buffs in the HP department. These will only lead to a widening of the performance gap between both Vet & Newbro and HP-oriented & Non-HP-oriented playstyles. Both of these are bad for Dust, and I can't see how the benefits of this proposal will outweigh the drawbacks. Chromosome had its flaws, but it was a good time to be a newbro. They bumbled about, just like today. They dropped like flies, just like today. But when a newbro got the drop on a vet, he had damn good odds of killing that vet. Prototype or not. HP tanked or not. I fell in love with this game as a newbro in Chromosome. Call it nostalgia, but in my opinion, that is the direction we should be heading in if we want better NPE, higher retention rates and a healthier playerbase: * Higher odds of success when outplaying/outpositioning one's opponent * Fewer get-out-of-jail-free cards afforded by HP tank * A better balanced playing field for non-HP-oriented playstyles Player thinking, planning and skill should play a part in any shooter. And in a shooter with as many loadout options as Dust, different playstyles and configurations should be encouraged rather than marginalized in the wake of King HP. When a newbro gets the drop on one of us and manages to keep his shots on target, we owe that newbro good odds of success. Spin-and-win is an NPE killer, and reinforcing the predominant meta by slowing TTK will ultimately amount to another free pass for vets (and another kick-in-the-teeth for those of us who don't stack HP). That's my two cents, at least. PS: The correct answer to my question, was "No. GalAssaults are not in need of a shield buff."
As a re-iteration, HP would be re-assigned, not necessarily buffed. The suits would still have the same EHP but more focused and consolidated into their specialized areas of tank, meaning that weapons that work better against them will be enhanced in their performance rather than having to chew through the subsidiary tank. The numbers aren't set in stone, more of a spit-balled example but total HP would remain the same, in either case.
Nothing about the shield proposal affects TTK either as there are not direct HP buffs. Does it open up for more opportunities to fit Shield Extenders in the wake of increase regen? Perhaps. One thing that many of the CPM are hesitant to do is further reduce TTK further. I apologize if you don't like this but this is the state of Dust 514 design, which has been developed consistently as a high-TTK Tactical Shooter.
EDIT: Players like being able to react to situations and there is a strong desire to maintain that. When a player gets killed faster than they can reasonably react, they feel cheated, and while there is merit in a newer player getting a kill because he got the jump on a veteran that can be accomplished in other areas and it is not a justifiable reason why shields should not be standardized/balanced.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 17:12:00 -
[28] - Quote
I quite like it in terms of the relationships between suits. Can't say whether overall it's too much of a buff to shields or not, could be fine. But I guess the point is to come up with the principles first.
There are two things I'd change.
1) Delay
I think assaults should have a delay in between heavies and lights, equal to logis. Rather than your proposal which has assault delay equal to scouts.
The proposal already has sentinel and commando delays equal to each other. It makes a lot of sense to have delays progress like this:
light < medium < heavy.
Too short a delay on a medium suit encourages dual tanking as it reduces the need and effect of shield regulators. Caldari assaults stacked with armour plates is not something I want to see become common. Also I don't want to see the delay on assaults buffed to scout levels.
Just like with sentinels and commandos in your proposal, the hp/regen progression could be maintained between suits of the same size by the regen stat. You have suggested swapping assault and logi regen. So they could have the same delay, with the proposed logi and assault regen swapped, consistent with the approach for sentinels and commandos.
2) Gallente
Gallente suits currently have the same shield recharge as Amarr. I don't see any reason for this to change. I think the hp discrepancy between the two is already accounted for. For example, Gallente have superior armour regen. Give them the same shield regen as each other, like now. |
Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 17:40:00 -
[29] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:yadda yadda
I like where you are going with this, just remember though while standardizing that exceptions such as the 1 sec Cal Sentinel exist for a reason (and probably should exist for suits like the Cal Commando as well), and that changes to modules should be implemented as well to lessen their awkwardness in fitting (energizers and rechargers: too much cpu, shield extenders: too much pg) and homogenize their utility (remove % based effects on shield modules, pretty please) across suits.
Also take a look at native armor regen on shield suits, I know its counterintuitive but I believe shield based dropsuits should have a higher native armor regen (or maybe all suits should have a higher base regen across the board), since there is a huge imbalance between default shield regen on armor suits (20-30 seconds) vs. default armor regen on shield suits (which can take ~2 minutes or more depending on suit). |
Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
524
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 17:49:00 -
[30] - Quote
The Ehp -Mobility model that is being adhered to works against shields. If shield suits are supposed to be 'skirmishers that pop in and out of battle using cover and speed' then should have speed. 5 high slots on a Caldari assault fully skilled gives you 707 shields with no equipment, no grenade and no side arm you can squeeze on a total of around 370 armor with no speed penalties. 1077 Ehp, 7.28 sprint. Amar assault you can get 399 shield and 806 armor, 1205 Ehp, 6.98 sprint, plus a sidearm, plus a grenade, plus a nanohive. Balancing suit speed to Ehp does little to balance much about the suits when the difference in speed does little when the Amar weapon deletes the Caldari suit in 0.4 seconds. While the Caldari weapon barely finishes spooling and getting a couple shots off. The game is no where near balanced, and so far all we have done is balanced the ratio of speed to possible Ehp. 700 armor can move as fast as 700 shields which given the status of shields puts armor at a huge advantage.
Shield suits of equal Ehp to armor suits should be much faster as they have to stay out of scrambler range. |
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Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
13
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Posted - 2015.09.18 17:51:00 -
[31] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:For a more in depth analysis at the numbers, you can check out this screenshot of the spreadsheet with my considerations/notes on the nuances: http://i.imgur.com/eshWaQK.jpg Big buff to Gal Assault? Didn't see that one coming. Do you really think that today's GalAssault needs a buff to shield performance? A simple Yes/No will suffice. There's an additional proposal (that would have to come after standardization of course) to change the Caldari Assault and Gallente Assault's base HP values to correlate more with their combat philosophy. More specifically, taking away subsidiary tank HP and giving it to primary tank HP. Caldari shields are 275 and armor is 155, with Gallente being a mirror of this in it's respective areas. So, you'd more likely see a Gallente Assault with 330 armor and 100 shields after that change. This is just one additional proposal, of which there are many that are being considered. However, regardless of what proposal it is, it would be something that would have to come after standardization took place as it would be chaotic to balance otherwise. There are going to be some oddities and outliers in this system that will need more refined work but the baseline/foundation must first be established.
I can dig this.
I always liked the healthy shield buffer on gal suits, but with these changes, base shield tank nerfs would be needed.
Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_;
Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 17:53:00 -
[32] - Quote
As far as Cal and Gal being mirrors of each other, Gal is actually in the right spot. LEss armor than Amarr, but more regen. Giving them more base armor means they could have the same hp as Amarr AND higher base regen than Amarr. This is not good. Instead, Leave Gal where they are, and simply buff Cal. Although personally I think Cal should come out with slightly more hp than Gal After the change, considering Caldari are all about stacking all the shields.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.18 18:09:00 -
[33] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:The Ehp -Mobility model that is being adhered to works against shields. If shield suits are supposed to be 'skirmishers that pop in and out of battle using cover and speed' then should have speed. 5 high slots on a Caldari assault fully skilled gives you 707 shields with no equipment, no grenade and no side arm you can squeeze on a total of around 370 armor with no speed penalties. 1077 Ehp, 7.28 sprint. Amar assault you can get 399 shield and 806 armor, 1205 Ehp, 6.98 sprint, plus a sidearm, plus a grenade, plus a nanohive. Balancing suit speed to Ehp does little to balance much about the suits when the difference in speed does little when the Amar weapon deletes the Caldari suit in 0.4 seconds. While the Caldari weapon barely finishes spooling and getting a couple shots off. The game is no where near balanced, and so far all we have done is balanced the ratio of speed to possible Ehp. 700 armor can move as fast as 700 shields which given the status of shields puts armor at a huge advantage.
Shield suits of equal Ehp to armor suits should be much faster as they have to stay out of scrambler range.
Hence why shield tankers are getting higher regen rates. Faster speed is generally assumed, as well, because their primary defense does not impact their speed, unlike armor. I don't necessarily believe that 700 Armor is in any way better than 700 Shields because they have their own merits. That armor will be moving slow as ****, will be missing a lot of low-slot utility, and have terrible regen unless they sacrifice the fitting capabilty/tank for that.
Regardless, it has little to do with shield standardization as a whole. The method and the math are completely separate balancing factors. This proposal illustrates the method.
Alena Ventrallis wrote:As far as Cal and Gal being mirrors of each other, Gal is actually in the right spot. LEss armor than Amarr, but more regen. Giving them more base armor means they could have the same hp as Amarr AND higher base regen than Amarr. This is not good. Instead, Leave Gal where they are, and simply buff Cal. Although personally I think Cal should come out with slightly more hp than Gal After the change, considering Caldari are all about stacking all the shields.
Again, it is a proposal being considered but not the fundamental topic at hand -right now-.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Shadowed Cola
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 18:18:00 -
[34] - Quote
Remember, this is a tactical shooter. This thread purpose isn't to find a safe spot for shield users to enjoy themselves, but to strike a clearer balance between armor vs shield.
Some weapons will still make your Caldari Heavy feel like fodder - while others will make you feel like superman running through barrages.
Now, I'm completely against standardizing EHP values between the two by equaling there values and differentiating them with speed. The speed meta is why the shield users can get away with stack resistance and have less over-all HP instead of EHP. Resistance stacks very well for shields if you keep piling it on, but it also works the opposite, and that's where the balance exists.
So, the question is - do we enable a shield style of play that is similar to Armor that allows a person to stack shield and not rely on mobility? Because I honestly don't see a huge issue with the current shield meta and how it works. Shield users currently have many advantages that's quite overwhelming when specialized.
It's a strange question to ask consdiering how shields behave - but that seems to be the issue a lot of people are having, favoring meta they don't understand. |
Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 18:24:00 -
[35] - Quote
Shadowed Cola wrote:Some weapons will still make your Caldari Heavy feel like fodder
If we're talking about the scrambler rifle that weapon just needs a nerf or serious rework. As long as we get to pretend that tactical weapons arent overpowered and there are simultaneously no anti armor tactical weapons, shields are going to be disproportionately ****** by them. |
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 18:25:00 -
[36] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:does little when the Amar weapon deletes the Caldari suit in 0.4 seconds. While the Caldari weapon barely finishes spooling and getting a couple shots off.
Sounds like a weapons balance concern as much as a speed or HP concern.
The real match framework absolutely includes all these elements, there's no question about that.
But the intent is to find overall game balance by iterating one system at a time so that each exists within a framework.
This was, AFAIK, not done in the early days of Dust and thus while not idea it needs to be done now.
Using the present game as a base for arguments such as this is problematic in the extreme because with the issues currently present one can find a reason to do/not do most things. Or do/not do thing X before thing Y and vice versa.
That's why specific iterative steps are needed, and thus why framing things in a broader context such as those including weapons balance implications isn't of use to the balance process at this point on this subject.
0.02 ISK
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Shadowed Cola
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 18:28:00 -
[37] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Shadowed Cola wrote:Some weapons will still make your Caldari Heavy feel like fodder If we're talking about the scrambler rifle that weapon just needs a nerf or serious rework. As long as we get to pretend that tactical weapons arent overpowered and there are simultaneously no anti armor tactical weapons, shields are going to be disproportionately ****** by them.
It's always a mistake to not put a RoF limit on single shooters with high base damage. |
Shadowed Cola
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 18:34:00 -
[38] - Quote
I find the RR more fearsome then the ScR - but I'm an Amarr Heavy. To be expected, because that's how the meta works.
But, admittedly, the ScR does a bit too much against armor. I don't think the resistance penalty is working properly. |
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 18:41:00 -
[39] - Quote
I heartily agree that there's room for discussion on the topic of the, generally speaking, "rile line" of light weapons.
And while I encourage that discussion I'd like to remind everyone that this thread isn't about weapon balance and will be most effective in gathering your feedback if we do not allow it to become side tracked by discussions of other aspects - weapons or otherwise - no matter how relevant they are in their own separate right.
Thanks all
~Cross
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 18:41:00 -
[40] - Quote
Shadowed Cola wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Shadowed Cola wrote:Some weapons will still make your Caldari Heavy feel like fodder If we're talking about the scrambler rifle that weapon just needs a nerf or serious rework. As long as we get to pretend that tactical weapons arent overpowered and there are simultaneously no anti armor tactical weapons, shields are going to be disproportionately ****** by them. It's always a mistake to not put a RoF limit on single shooters with high base damage.
There is a rate of fire limiter, iirc, you can realistically hit 8-9 shots per second and 10 shots per second is theoretically possible. The problem is each shot does over 100 damage with mods and shield damage profile bonus, so those 8-9 shots each second put you over 800-900 dps, which is way more than any other gun is capable of except the tactical AR, and way more than you can tank through with any reasonable shield fitting and expect to actually fight back with, particularly with the back loaded, hard capped, and generally low damage output of the railgun weaponry in the game. |
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Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 18:54:00 -
[41] - Quote
Shadowed Cola wrote:I find the RR more fearsome then the ScR - but I'm an Amarr Heavy. To be expected, because that's how the meta works.
But, admittedly, the ScR does a bit too much against armor. I don't think the resistance penalty is working properly.
The SCR actually does more dps to armor than the RR does (with 2 dmg mods and prof 5 for each: RR @571.05/ARR @603.08 vs. SCR @746.67. These numbers actually hugely favor the rail rifles since SCR profile vs. armor does nothing and 2 damage mods on a rail rifle if we're talking about shield tanked suits being the user is very unlikely, since damage mods replace primary tank, and yet the SCR is still way ahead even though its range effectiveness is very similar and its shield effectiveness is WAY better, numbers generated via PROTOFITS.com), though at least on an Amarr Heavy you have a decent chance to see an overheat before you die (though if they are accurate or use any kind of hit and run tactics to avoid overheat you are still royally ******).
SCR totally balanced though, no need to nerf.
Ill stop posting about the SCR though, since this thread is about regen delays. |
Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.18 18:56:00 -
[42] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:
Ill stop posting about the SCR though, since this thread is about regen delays.
I'd appreciate that.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 19:01:00 -
[43] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:
Ill stop posting about the SCR though, since this thread is about regen delays.
I'd appreciate that.
Your mom would appreciate that. |
Shadowed Cola
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2015.09.18 19:02:00 -
[44] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Shadowed Cola wrote:I find the RR more fearsome then the ScR - but I'm an Amarr Heavy. To be expected, because that's how the meta works.
But, admittedly, the ScR does a bit too much against armor. I don't think the resistance penalty is working properly. The SCR actually does more dps to armor than the RR does (with 2 dmg mods and prof 5 for each: RR @571.05/ARR @603.08 vs. SCR @746.67. These numbers actually hugely favor the rail rifles since SCR profile vs. armor does nothing and 2 damage mods on a rail rifle if we're talking about shield tanked suits being the user is very unlikely, since damage mods replace primary tank, and yet the SCR is still way ahead even though its range effectiveness is very similar and its shield effectiveness is WAY better, numbers generated via PROTOFITS.com), though at least on an Amarr Heavy you have a decent chance to see an overheat before you die (though if they are accurate or use any kind of hit and run tactics to avoid overheat you are still royally ******). SCR totally balanced though, no need to nerf. Ill stop posting about the SCR though, since this thread is about regen delays.
It's the range, ScR may hurt, but it's not killing me from miles away. I can possibly do something to an enemy I can get too - can't do **** against one I can't.
And the range meta in this game is completely ****** up. How do you expect to balance shields when weapons are out of whack? lol
SG are anti shield - why? Snipers too are mostly anti-shields besides 1 type - why? Would it not make more sense for the heavy hitting weapons to be used against the higher HP armor instead of shield?
Sorry to continue to derail i'll stop lol |
Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.18 19:20:00 -
[45] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:
Ill stop posting about the SCR though, since this thread is about regen delays.
I'd appreciate that. Your mom would appreciate that.
She would.
If the weapon balance posts continue I'll have them snipped, so best not to waste precious time you guys will never get back because our lives are in fact finite.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.18 19:21:00 -
[46] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:
Ill stop posting about the SCR though, since this thread is about regen delays.
I'd appreciate that. Your mom would appreciate that. She would. If the weapon balance posts continue I'll have them snipped, so best not to waste precious time you guys will never get back because our lives are in fact finite.
I can just delete them, let me see if I can figure out how...
Nope, too dumb, feel free to delete them, I wont mind. |
Shadowed Cola
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 19:26:00 -
[47] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:
Ill stop posting about the SCR though, since this thread is about regen delays.
I'd appreciate that. Your mom would appreciate that. She would. If the weapon balance posts continue I'll have them snipped, so best not to waste precious time you guys will never get back because our lives are in fact finite. I can just delete them, let me see if I can figure out how... Nope, too dumb, feel free to delete them, I wont mind.
Only mods can, you can submit a report or ticket and ask CCP to do it - they sometimes do.
Anyone got a link of the damage types and armor types and there resistance values? |
Zan Azikuchi
G.R.A.V.E
The Ditanian Alliance
257
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Posted - 2015.09.18 22:23:00 -
[48] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:For a more in depth analysis at the numbers, you can check out this screenshot of the spreadsheet with my considerations/notes on the nuances: http://i.imgur.com/eshWaQK.jpg Big buff to Gal Assault? Didn't see that one coming. Do you really think that today's GalAssault needs a buff to shield performance? A simple Yes/No will suffice. There's an additional proposal (that would have to come after standardization of course) to change the Caldari Assault and Gallente Assault's base HP values to correlate more with their combat philosophy. More specifically, taking away subsidiary tank HP and giving it to primary tank HP. Caldari shields are 275 and armor is 155, with Gallente being a mirror of this in it's respective areas. So, you'd more likely see a Gallente Assault with 330 armor and 100 shields after that change. This is just one additional proposal, of which there are many that are being considered. However, regardless of what proposal it is, it would be something that would have to come after standardization took place as it would be chaotic to balance otherwise. There are going to be some oddities and outliers in this system that will need more refined work but the baseline/foundation must first be established.
So, in perspective, if we remove 35 armor and at that HP loss to shield, shield would have, instead of 275, 310 shield? while our armor would be at 120, we'd be at the same EHP as stated above, but will be more in line with our role as long range combatant's.
(I do not support the theory of shield's having to be specifically long range only, considering that 75% of the game features lots of cover and extreme close range engagements, but for the sake of getting better shield balance, I'll make this argument at a later time.)
When there is light, shadow's lurk and fear reign's... Yet by the blade of knight's, mankind, was given hope.
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
415
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 23:02:00 -
[49] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
"Unified Theories" sound good, but I can't get behind the proposed buffs in the HP department. These will only lead to a widening of the performance gap between both Vet & Newbro and HP-oriented & Non-HP-oriented playstyles. Both of these are bad for Dust, and I can't see how the benefits of this proposal will outweigh the drawbacks.
A little late in response to this, but here it goes: There would be little to no changes involved in the direct HP of the suits under the proposal as I am understanding it. Issues with Newbros vs Vets would not be significantly effected by these changes, as all suits at all tiers would inherit the same stats (thank you lite-tiericide/Tankicide). Currently, as I understand it, this proposal does not include any module changes, so we do not have the issues of module scaling involved...so the issues of Vet vs Newbro aren't really relevant in this thread yet. And as these are base stats, and include overall buffs to base regeneration stats, I fail to see how this hurts non-hp oriented playstyles, as fitting the only "HP Oriented" modules (Shield Recharge modules and shield Regulators) becomes less of an issue under this proposal, freeing up that slot for something like a codebreaker or Cardiac Regulator.
@Aeon: Overall , since you're planning on the 2.1 of this proposal to have the logi/assault switched around in terms of regen, this seems like a solid basis for things, although as I stated in the previous thread...maybe a Standardized Regen Rate per Role might be an interesting way to go as well.
As many people know I have a lot of things to say on shield delay...but I do not think this is the proper time to bring them up
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
524
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 23:47:00 -
[50] - Quote
Give all Caldari 1 sec regeneration delay, 20+ regeneration per second, minmitar 5 sec with 5+, ammar/gallente 10 seconds with 1+ regeneration per second. Then shield suits would have any point to use. |
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
524
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Posted - 2015.09.19 00:05:00 -
[51] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:For a more in depth analysis at the numbers, you can check out this screenshot of the spreadsheet with my considerations/notes on the nuances: http://i.imgur.com/eshWaQK.jpg Big buff to Gal Assault? Didn't see that one coming. Do you really think that today's GalAssault needs a buff to shield performance? A simple Yes/No will suffice.
No
The gallente do not need any sort of shield buff.. nor do Amar, all around Nerf to both classes shields IMHO. |
Booby Tuesdays
Bad Mother Thukkers
1
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Posted - 2015.09.19 00:10:00 -
[52] - Quote
I agree that the shield numbers need to be refined, as they're all over the place now. However, why on God's green earth would we buff armor tanking suits at all? Repping a few more HP per second, sure. Like 5 HP more max. I do not understand why the armor based suits need any type of shield buff what so ever. 
Armor suits would have no weakness with these proposed numbers. If anything it would encourage dual tanking and King HP even more...
Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
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aiden telurius
35
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Posted - 2015.09.19 00:39:00 -
[53] - Quote
I doubt I can be of any help but I would like to point out something and make a module suggestion. What I would like to point out is that some officer suits (with some skills or mods) could actually be able to fit a tank's shield module. So my suggestion would be to make a heavy shield module (consider the normal ones as ferroscale) that would have high CPU and PG costs (with a movement penalty because it's basically a tank module and such an item would be quite large and bulky but also reduce the amount of HP that could be recharged) but an high HP boost.
This next part is just theoretical numbers as I can not convert a tank module to a human module (and I don't know what is considered too much shield HP)
[Basic] HP: +500 CPU: ~117 PG: ~13 movement penalty: ~8% recharge penalty: ~33%
[Advanced] +50% all around on basic version
[Prototype] +75% all around on basic version
That is the best I can do to help... feel free to delete it
Have you ever been with a gal? I haven't; can't stand the four eyes...
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.19 01:31:00 -
[54] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:I agree that the shield numbers need to be refined, as they're all over the place now. However, why on God's green earth would we buff armor tanking suits at all? Repping a few more HP per second, sure. Like 5 HP more max. I do not understand why the armor based suits need any type of shield buff what so ever. Armor suits would have no weakness with these proposed numbers. If anything it would encourage dual tanking and King HP even more...
Explain how, don't just make the statement. Pretend this is college and you're being graded on an essay because right now you're not including supporting arguments or backing for your statements.
That generally results in an F, btw.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.19 01:48:00 -
[55] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Booby Tuesdays wrote:I agree that the shield numbers need to be refined, as they're all over the place now. However, why on God's green earth would we buff armor tanking suits at all? Repping a few more HP per second, sure. Like 5 HP more max. I do not understand why the armor based suits need any type of shield buff what so ever. Armor suits would have no weakness with these proposed numbers. If anything it would encourage dual tanking and King HP even more... Explain how, don't just make the statement. Pretend this is college and you're being graded on an essay because right now you're not including supporting arguments or backing for your statements. That generally results in an F, btw.
I'm in complete agreement with Booby. If armor tankers are outperforming shield tankers, and nerfs are for whatever reason off the table, then the obvious solution is to buff shield tankers. "Let's buff armor tankers while we're at it" doesn't make much practical sense. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.19 01:52:00 -
[56] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:For a more in depth analysis at the numbers, you can check out this screenshot of the spreadsheet with my considerations/notes on the nuances: http://i.imgur.com/eshWaQK.jpg Big buff to Gal Assault? Didn't see that one coming. Do you really think that today's GalAssault needs a buff to shield performance? A simple Yes/No will suffice. No The gallente do not need any sort of shield buff.. nor do Amar, all around Nerf to both classes shields IMHO.
My thoughts exactly.
"Shield tankers are being outperformed by armor tankers. Let's buff 'em, but while we're at it let's also buff armor tankers."
Does not compute. Flowery unified theory or not. |
Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.19 02:39:00 -
[57] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:For a more in depth analysis at the numbers, you can check out this screenshot of the spreadsheet with my considerations/notes on the nuances: http://i.imgur.com/eshWaQK.jpg Big buff to Gal Assault? Didn't see that one coming. Do you really think that today's GalAssault needs a buff to shield performance? A simple Yes/No will suffice. No The gallente do not need any sort of shield buff.. nor do Amar, all around Nerf to both classes shields IMHO. My thoughts exactly. "Shield tankers are being outperformed by armor tankers. Let's buff 'em, but while we're at it let's also buff armor tankers."Does not compute. Flowery unified theory or not.
Over-simplification with absolutely nothing provided as far as feedback besides infantile repetition. You're welcome to propose changes with rational and reasonable backing, but parroting "Armor is bad" over and over isn't going to accomplish much.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.09.19 02:39:00 -
[58] - Quote
It's a good thing that decisions aren't dictated by you or Doc DDD, isn't it?
Adipem provide alternative values and math or quit sh*tposting. We realize you're salty that you're not on the CPM and none of us are on board with Scout Master Race.
Get over it already.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.19 02:40:00 -
[59] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
"Unified Theories" sound good, but I can't get behind the proposed buffs in the HP department. These will only lead to a widening of the performance gap between both Vet & Newbro and HP-oriented & Non-HP-oriented playstyles. Both of these are bad for Dust, and I can't see how the benefits of this proposal will outweigh the drawbacks.
Chromosome had its flaws, but it was a good time to be a newbro. They bumbled about, just like today. They dropped like flies, just like today. But when a newbro got the drop on a vet, he had damn good odds of killing that vet. Prototype or not. HP tanked or not. I fell in love with this game as a newbro in Chromosome. Call it nostalgia, but in my opinion, that is the direction we should be heading in if we want better NPE, higher retention rates and a healthier playerbase:
* Higher odds of success when outplaying/outpositioning one's opponent
* Fewer get-out-of-jail-free cards afforded by HP tank
* A better balanced playing field for non-HP-oriented playstyles
Player thinking, planning and skill should play a part in any shooter. And in a shooter with as many loadout options as Dust, different playstyles and configurations should be encouraged rather than marginalized in the wake of King HP. When a newbro gets the drop on one of us and manages to keep his shots on target, we owe that newbro good odds of success. Spin-and-win is an NPE killer, and reinforcing the predominant meta by slowing TTK will ultimately amount to another free pass for vets (and another kick-in-the-teeth for those of us who don't stack HP).
That's my two cents, at least.
PS: The correct answer to my question, was "No. GalAssaults are not in need of a shield buff."
1. As a re-iteration, HP would be re-assigned, not necessarily buffed. The suits would still have the same EHP but more focused and consolidated into their specialized areas of tank, meaning that weapons that work better against them will be enhanced in their performance rather than having to chew through the subsidiary tank. The numbers aren't set in stone, more of a spit-balled example but total HP would remain the same, in either case. (2A) Nothing about the shield proposal affects TTK either as there are not direct HP buffs. Does it open up for more opportunities to fit Shield Extenders in the wake of increase regen? Perhaps. (2B) One thing that many of the CPM are hesitant to do is further reduce TTK further. (2C) I apologize if you don't like this but this is the state of Dust 514 design, which has been developed consistently as a high-TTK Tactical Shooter. (3) EDIT: Players like being able to react to situations and there is a strong desire to maintain that. When a player gets killed faster than they can reasonably react, they feel cheated, and while there is merit in a newer player getting a kill because he got the jump on a veteran that can be accomplished in other areas and (4) it is not a justifiable reason why shields should not be standardized/balanced.
1. I'm looking at your numbers. Looks like you're proposing a buff for anyone and everyone who tanks HP. Not just the underperforming shield-tankers; you've somehow managed to squeeze in a substantial buff for armor tankers as well.
2A. There's more to TTK than base HP values. Otherwise, folks wouldn't run ferro or reactive plates.
2B. Sure. But I doubt that any member of CPM would knowingly support changes which would worsen overall balance or detrimentally impact NPE. I imagine that most CPM would agree that "grow the player base" should rank among our top priorities. Reinforcing the predominant, proto-friendly meta will not help in that cause. I include you in this assessment of CPM. I believe you mean well, even when you're dead wrong. I don't think that you recognize King HP for the problem it is.
2C. I agree that Dust isn't and shouldn't become a twitch shooter, but I also believe that there should be consequence to making mistakes, being caught unaware and being out-positioned/out-played. Stacking brick and shields should not be made a substitute for smart play.
3. A vet fails to check his surroundings, advances from cover, and is gunned down from behind by a newbro. A newbro gets the drop on a vet, watches as he advances from cover, guns him down from behind ... and dies to spin-and-win. Which player should feel cheated? Which player is more likely to quit Dust and play other games?
4. 100% in favor of better armor-v-shield balance. Always have been. I'm simply opposed to solutions which will further entrench King HP. |
Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.19 02:52:00 -
[60] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
"Unified Theories" sound good, but I can't get behind the proposed buffs in the HP department. These will only lead to a widening of the performance gap between both Vet & Newbro and HP-oriented & Non-HP-oriented playstyles. Both of these are bad for Dust, and I can't see how the benefits of this proposal will outweigh the drawbacks.
Chromosome had its flaws, but it was a good time to be a newbro. They bumbled about, just like today. They dropped like flies, just like today. But when a newbro got the drop on a vet, he had damn good odds of killing that vet. Prototype or not. HP tanked or not. I fell in love with this game as a newbro in Chromosome. Call it nostalgia, but in my opinion, that is the direction we should be heading in if we want better NPE, higher retention rates and a healthier playerbase:
* Higher odds of success when outplaying/outpositioning one's opponent
* Fewer get-out-of-jail-free cards afforded by HP tank
* A better balanced playing field for non-HP-oriented playstyles
Player thinking, planning and skill should play a part in any shooter. And in a shooter with as many loadout options as Dust, different playstyles and configurations should be encouraged rather than marginalized in the wake of King HP. When a newbro gets the drop on one of us and manages to keep his shots on target, we owe that newbro good odds of success. Spin-and-win is an NPE killer, and reinforcing the predominant meta by slowing TTK will ultimately amount to another free pass for vets (and another kick-in-the-teeth for those of us who don't stack HP).
That's my two cents, at least.
PS: The correct answer to my question, was "No. GalAssaults are not in need of a shield buff."
1. As a re-iteration, HP would be re-assigned, not necessarily buffed. The suits would still have the same EHP but more focused and consolidated into their specialized areas of tank, meaning that weapons that work better against them will be enhanced in their performance rather than having to chew through the subsidiary tank. The numbers aren't set in stone, more of a spit-balled example but total HP would remain the same, in either case. (2A) Nothing about the shield proposal affects TTK either as there are not direct HP buffs. Does it open up for more opportunities to fit Shield Extenders in the wake of increase regen? Perhaps. (2B) One thing that many of the CPM are hesitant to do is further reduce TTK further. (2C) I apologize if you don't like this but this is the state of Dust 514 design, which has been developed consistently as a high-TTK Tactical Shooter. (3) EDIT: Players like being able to react to situations and there is a strong desire to maintain that. When a player gets killed faster than they can reasonably react, they feel cheated, and while there is merit in a newer player getting a kill because he got the jump on a veteran that can be accomplished in other areas and (4) it is not a justifiable reason why shields should not be standardized/balanced. 1. I'm looking at your numbers. Looks like you're proposing a buff for anyone and everyone who tanks HP. Not just the underperforming shield-tankers; you've somehow managed to squeeze in a substantial buff for armor tankers as well. 2A. There's more to TTK than base HP values. Otherwise, folks wouldn't run ferro or reactive plates. 2B. Sure. But I doubt that any member of CPM would knowingly support changes which would worsen overall balance or detrimentally impact NPE. I imagine that most CPM would agree that "grow the player base" should rank among our top priorities. Reinforcing the predominant, proto-friendly meta will not help in that cause. I include you in this assessment of CPM. I believe you mean well, even when you're dead wrong. I don't think that you recognize King HP for the problem it is. 2C. I agree that Dust isn't and shouldn't become a twitch shooter, but I also believe that there should be consequence to making mistakes, being caught unaware and being out-positioned/out-played. Stacking brick and shields should not be made a substitute for smart play. 3. A vet fails to check his surroundings, advances from cover, and is gunned down from behind by a newbro. A newbro gets the drop on a vet, watches as he advances from cover, guns him down from behind ... and dies to spin-and-win. Which player should feel cheated? Which player is more likely to quit Dust and play other games? 4. 100% in favor of better armor-v-shield balance. Always have been. I'm simply opposed to solutions which will further entrench King HP.
What does any of this have to do with Shield Standardization and design methodology?
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.19 02:52:00 -
[61] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:For a more in depth analysis at the numbers, you can check out this screenshot of the spreadsheet with my considerations/notes on the nuances: http://i.imgur.com/eshWaQK.jpg Big buff to Gal Assault? Didn't see that one coming. Do you really think that today's GalAssault needs a buff to shield performance? A simple Yes/No will suffice. No The gallente do not need any sort of shield buff.. nor do Amar, all around Nerf to both classes shields IMHO. My thoughts exactly. "Shield tankers are being outperformed by armor tankers. Let's buff 'em, but while we're at it let's also buff armor tankers."Does not compute. Flowery unified theory or not. Over-simplification with absolutely nothing provided as far as feedback besides infantile repetition. You're welcome to propose changes with rational and reasonable backing, but parroting "Armor is bad" over and over isn't going to accomplish much.
How exactly does a significant buff to the GalAssault shield regen/delay translate to better armor-v-shield interplay? |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.19 02:58:00 -
[62] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:
What does any of this have to do with Shield Standardization and design methodology?
Everything. I'm openly opposed to further entrenching King HP, I believe it'd bad for the game, and I've explained precisely why. Negative feedback and concerns are absolutely constructive feedback, whether you want to hear them or not. There are other ways to fix armor-v-shield interplay. I'd encourage you to explore alternatives. Even those that -- god forbid -- might take a toll on your personal playstyle. |
Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.19 02:59:00 -
[63] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
How exactly does a buff to the GalAssault regen/delay translate to better armor-v-shield interplay?
Again, you're welcome to propose your own system that provides a baseline/foundation for shield balancing and I wish you the best of luck in trying to fix it. However, I think this little back-and-forth has gone on long enough as there is nothing useful being gained from this and it is almost entirely non-sequitur to what this entire thread is trying to accomplish. I apologize if that effort is not clear to you and I will try to make future proposals as clear cut as possible.
Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:
What does any of this have to do with Shield Standardization and design methodology?
Everything. I'm openly opposed to further entrenching King HP, and I've explained precisely why. Negative feedback and concerns are absolutely constructive feedback, whether you want to hear them or not. There are other ways to fix armor-v-shield interplay. I'd encourage you to explore alternatives. Even those that -- god forbid -- might take a toll on your personal playstyle.
Shield Stats 3.0 will include all Gallente suits having 0 HP, 0 Recharge/Repair. My assurances.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.09.19 03:07:00 -
[64] - Quote
The reason it works is because Gallente aren't exactly being saved by their shields on a regular basis. All it is is a small buffer before they get into their main tank. I don't see how a small buff to delay is going to make Gal suits suddenly OP. That's like worrying that sentinels getting a 0.1 m/s sprint speed buff will make them god mode: it's a buff, sure, but not one to even warrant attention, much less worry.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.19 03:08:00 -
[65] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:It's a good thing that decisions aren't dictated by you or Doc DDD, isn't it?
Adipem provide alternative values and math or quit sh*tposting. We realize you're salty that you're not on the CPM and none of us are on board with Scout Master Race.
Get over it already.
I didn't run for CPM, cupcake. And I never will. No salt there. As for "Scout Master Race", here's the part where I remind you that I personally proposed and/or supported a dozen or better different Scout nerfs back when Scout nerfs meant better overal balance. This is clearly documented here in the forums for anyone to read. If reading isn't a strong suit of yours, just ask Rattati.
Fundamentally disagreeing with an idea is not sh*tposting. Not everyone is on board with HP > All Else. That's to be expected. Get over it already. Better yet, tighten that CPM chinstrap, do your job and fix it already. |
Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.19 03:13:00 -
[66] - Quote
To check out caldari commando stats, I took it to advanced. Put my SP where my mouth is, or erm might have been before stating my opinion on whether your proposal would helped it or would that make it OP.
Well, it need far more than just a shield recharge buff. Far more than the min commando. Its the only commando suit out of my 3 advanced commando suits (Amarr and Minmatar) that I cannot fit a single proto light weapon on without both a pg and cpu mod.
Minando has Wyrokami or Freedom MD + BK-42, damage mod, 2x shield extender, plate, rep.
Amando has Kal tactical sniper + GB9 breach, 2 damage mods 2 plates rep
Calmando has Kal Tac Tactical sniper + SB39 RR, 2 shield mods, PG mod, 1 plate + 1 cpu mod.
I downgraded the calmando to a adv tactical sniper + RR, and its shield rates + delay are still abysmaly low. You have to run regulators, but you only have space for one, because you still need an armor repper.
A round about way of saying i approve for the calmando.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.19 03:13:00 -
[67] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
How exactly does a buff to the GalAssault regen/delay translate to better armor-v-shield interplay?
Again, you're welcome to propose your own system that provides a baseline/foundation for shield balancing and I wish you the best of luck in trying to fix it. However, I think this little back-and-forth has gone on long enough as there is nothing useful being gained from this and it is almost entirely non-sequitur to what this entire thread is trying to accomplish. I apologize if that effort is not clear to you and I will try to make future proposals as clear cut as possible. Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:
What does any of this have to do with Shield Standardization and design methodology?
Everything. I'm openly opposed to further entrenching King HP, and I've explained precisely why. Negative feedback and concerns are absolutely constructive feedback, whether you want to hear them or not. There are other ways to fix armor-v-shield interplay. I'd encourage you to explore alternatives. Even those that -- god forbid -- might take a toll on your personal playstyle. Shield Stats 3.0 will include all Gallente suits having 0 HP, 0 Recharge/Repair. My assurances.
I've given you my two cents. That's all I can do. I know you mean well, and I wish you luck with your proposal. But that doesn't mean I won't hold an "I was right. You were wrong. I told you so." over your head down the road. Again. For what now seems the hundredth time.
Edit: This is one of those times I actually hope I end up being wrong. It'd be better for the game if what I expect to happen doesn't happen. I guess we'll see. |
Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.19 03:18:00 -
[68] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:To check out caldari commando stats, I took it to advanced. Put my SP where my mouth is, or erm might have been before stating my opinion on whether your proposal would helped it or would that make it OP.
Well, it need far more than just a shield recharge buff. Far more than the min commando. Its the only commando suit out of my 3 advanced commando suits (Amarr and Minmatar) that I cannot fit a single proto light weapon on without both a pg and cpu mod.
Minando has Wyrokami or Freedom MD + BK-42, damage mod, 2x shield extender, plate, rep.
Amando has Kal tactical sniper + GB9 breach, 2 damage mods 2 plates rep
Calmando has Kal Tac Tactical sniper + SB39 RR, 2 shield mods, PG mod, 1 plate + 1 cpu mod.
I downgraded the calmando to a adv tactical sniper + RR, and its shield rates + delay are still abysmaly low. You have to run regulators, but you only have space for one, because you still need an armor repper.
A round about way of saying i approve for the calmando.
It's a foundation for future changes that must occur in some way, shape, or form. Otherwise we're just shooting in the dark and hoping something sticks. Once an established baseline is made then we can freely change modules, skills, suits, etc.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
415
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Posted - 2015.09.19 04:58:00 -
[69] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:I agree that the shield numbers need to be refined, as they're all over the place now. However, why on God's green earth would we buff armor tanking suits at all? Repping a few more HP per second, sure. Like 5 HP more max. I do not understand why the armor based suits need any type of shield buff what so ever. Armor suits would have no weakness with these proposed numbers. If anything it would encourage dual tanking and King HP even more...
It's not intended as a buff or nerf overall...it's designed as a proposal to standardize the design on shields in general, in similar line to what happened with Speed/HP. This proposal is about making sure we have a standardized framework to work around when proposing buffs and nerfs in the future. Without a change like this, we don't have the proper context with which to propose buffs or nerfs to shield or armor.
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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WeapondigitX V7
The Exemplars
432
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Posted - 2015.09.19 05:48:00 -
[70] - Quote
after reading most of page 1 of this thread I feel the proposed changes to recharge rates are ok. |
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CommanderBolt
Dead Man's Game
4
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Posted - 2015.09.19 09:10:00 -
[71] - Quote
I appreciate the fact that you acknowledge that there is an imbalance between shields and armour but I strongly suggest that these proposals are not the answer.
I really dont see how buffing Gallente Scout and Assault shield stats so much helps anyone.
EDIT - I see that the answer to my above statement is - it is more about having a baseline to work from rather than buffs to armour suits but I still cant help but feel this is iffy...
Why dont we for the love of all things just look at the stats from the current shield modules and adjust those? Regulator buffs, extender buffs (How about removing the shield delay penalty from extenders).
Also its all great trying to balance base stats but how on earth can we ever have balance when Armour has triage hives and repair tools and Shields have none of those? Please explain to me how balance can ever be achieved.
Go and speak to people in EVE and ask them if it would be fair to remove shield logistics modules and ships.....
"Madness how we turned our common-ground into a battle-ground.." - Essa
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
4
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Posted - 2015.09.19 11:06:00 -
[72] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:The reason it works is because Gallente aren't exactly being saved by their shields on a regular basis. All it is is a small buffer before they get into their main tank. I don't see how a small buff to delay is going to make Gal suits suddenly OP. That's like worrying that sentinels getting a 0.1 m/s sprint speed buff will make them god mode: it's a buff, sure, but not one to even warrant attention, much less worry.
A 'small buffer' that they'd get to use in effectively every engagement? with delays and recharge values that make you go "Hey, maybe I'll put one complex extender on here so I can have 200 hp, and get it all back in ~10 seconds all the time".
Meanwhile the actual shield tanked suits do not possess this buffer and when they take armor damage it stays there for ungodly amounts of time (values can be in the minutes range, eg cal sent has 487 armor and reps at 1/sec natively) if you don't have a rep or a reactive fit and even then that doesn't shorten it by much.
This exacerbates existent problems, because armor is already the clearly better tanking style for a wide variety of reasons... so in attempting to 'address' the woes of shield users, somehow a nice sneaky and rather large buff to shield tanking for armor suits gets wiggled in there too.
Do armor tanks need a buff to their ability to shield tank? No. Why are they getting one? Because purple prose and [reasons]. Meanwhile lets yammer on about pendulum balance.
Shield tanking should be buffed independently, armor tankers should not be recieving any buffs to their shields at the moment (with the sole exceptions being armor commandos, who do often rely on their shields and could use some love)
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.19 11:40:00 -
[73] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Booby Tuesdays wrote:I agree that the shield numbers need to be refined, as they're all over the place now. However, why on God's green earth would we buff armor tanking suits at all? Repping a few more HP per second, sure. Like 5 HP more max. I do not understand why the armor based suits need any type of shield buff what so ever. Armor suits would have no weakness with these proposed numbers. If anything it would encourage dual tanking and King HP even more... It's not intended as a buff or nerf overall...it's designed as a proposal to standardize the design on shields in general, in similar line to what happened with Speed/HP. This proposal is about making sure we have a standardized framework to work around when proposing buffs and nerfs in the future. Without a change like this, we don't have the proper context with which to propose buffs or nerfs to shield or armor.
This part I get. Everyone likes logical patterns. The parts I don't get are (1) the proposed improvement to the shield stat performance of armor tankers and (2) what appears to be a general buff to already predominant high-hitpoint play. I'm of the opinion that we should be looking for ways to shake up the predominant meta rather than reinforce it. Here's what I'm thinking:
Google Doc
It is a spreadsheet, just like Aeon's.
It follows logical patterns, just like Aeon's.
Unlike Aeon's, it doesn't include unwarranted buffs to assaults or armor tankers. |
Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.19 11:48:00 -
[74] - Quote
I initially had a very long drawn out post about the concepts and principles of design but I think those of you who are smart enough to use illustrations and context clues can easily understand how frustrating some of these comments are once I provide you something to look at. Those of you who can't... Well, let's just say that god loves all of his children.
http://discoverdesign.org/files/images/general/design_process_0.gif
We're in between the Brainstorm and Analyze and Feedback portions, respectively. I'll let you figure out what that means for why getting bent out of shape over the numbers presented in this proposal is just downright silly.
If it is anything I've learned from this experience it is that my proposals, from now on, will simply not include numbers or values (at least not publicly) because the Dust 514 community has shown, without a shadow of a doubt, that they cannot remain objective when numbers - even conceptual and placeholder - are presented and will don Prototype Tinfoil in an effort to destroy a perceived threat while completely ignoring the entire premise of a proposal.
Run on sentences aside I'm starting to understand very clearly why CCP simply doesn't talk 90% of the time.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.19 11:57:00 -
[75] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:I initially had a very long drawn out post about the concepts and principles of design but I think those of you who are smart enough to use illustrations and context clues can easily understand how frustrating some of these comments are once I provide you something to look at. Those of you who can't... Well, let's just say that god loves all of his children. http://discoverdesign.org/files/images/general/design_process_0.gifWe're in between the Brainstorm and Analyze and Feedback portions, respectively. I'll let you figure out what that means for why getting bent out of shape over the numbers presented in this proposal is just downright silly. If it is anything I've learned from this experience it is that my proposals, from now on, will simply not include numbers or values (at least not publicly) because the Dust 514 community has shown, without a shadow of a doubt, that they cannot remain objective when numbers - even conceptual and placeholder - are presented and will don Prototype Tinfoil in an effort to destroy a perceived threat while completely ignoring the entire premise of a proposal. Run on sentences aside I'm starting to understand very clearly why CCP simply doesn't talk 90% of the time.
Right. Because you're smarter than us, Aeon. Keep telling yourself that. |
Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.19 12:00:00 -
[76] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:I initially had a very long drawn out post about the concepts and principles of design but I think those of you who are smart enough to use illustrations and context clues can easily understand how frustrating some of these comments are once I provide you something to look at. Those of you who can't... Well, let's just say that god loves all of his children. http://discoverdesign.org/files/images/general/design_process_0.gifWe're in between the Brainstorm and Analyze and Feedback portions, respectively. I'll let you figure out what that means for why getting bent out of shape over the numbers presented in this proposal is just downright silly. If it is anything I've learned from this experience it is that my proposals, from now on, will simply not include numbers or values (at least not publicly) because the Dust 514 community has shown, without a shadow of a doubt, that they cannot remain objective when numbers - even conceptual and placeholder - are presented and will don Prototype Tinfoil in an effort to destroy a perceived threat while completely ignoring the entire premise of a proposal. Run on sentences aside I'm starting to understand very clearly why CCP simply doesn't talk 90% of the time. Right. Because you're smarter than us, Aeon. Keep telling yourself that.
I'd like to thank you, specifically, for keeping this thread on the front page for as long as you have.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.19 12:03:00 -
[77] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:I initially had a very long drawn out post about the concepts and principles of design but I think those of you who are smart enough to use illustrations and context clues can easily understand how frustrating some of these comments are once I provide you something to look at. Those of you who can't... Well, let's just say that god loves all of his children. http://discoverdesign.org/files/images/general/design_process_0.gifWe're in between the Brainstorm and Analyze and Feedback portions, respectively. I'll let you figure out what that means for why getting bent out of shape over the numbers presented in this proposal is just downright silly. If it is anything I've learned from this experience it is that my proposals, from now on, will simply not include numbers or values (at least not publicly) because the Dust 514 community has shown, without a shadow of a doubt, that they cannot remain objective when numbers - even conceptual and placeholder - are presented and will don Prototype Tinfoil in an effort to destroy a perceived threat while completely ignoring the entire premise of a proposal. Run on sentences aside I'm starting to understand very clearly why CCP simply doesn't talk 90% of the time. Right. Because you're smarter than us, Aeon. Keep telling yourself that. I'd like to thank you, specifically, for keeping this thread on the front page for as long as you have.
No prob, breh.
And as you lead us toward the "optimal path" that only you are clever enough to see, don't be distracted or discouraged by facts. Facts like your having a consistent track record of being wrong far more often than not when it comes to anything about balance. That's all ancient history. I realize that you've somehow and suddenly figured out how to be right. Fascinating. I'm excited for you.
Obviously, you won't be needing us anymore to question, QA, stress test or flesh out your ideas. That's unfortunate for us, but I can grasp why. I always knew you were too clever for Community work. You're too good for us, Aeon. Now more than ever. |
CommanderBolt
Dead Man's Game
4
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 12:18:00 -
[78] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:I initially had a very long drawn out post about the concepts and principles of design but I think those of you who are smart enough to use illustrations and context clues can easily understand how frustrating some of these comments are once I provide you something to look at. Those of you who can't... Well, let's just say that god loves all of his children. http://discoverdesign.org/files/images/general/design_process_0.gifWe're in between the Brainstorm and Analyze and Feedback portions, respectively. I'll let you figure out what that means for why getting bent out of shape over the numbers presented in this proposal is just downright silly. If it is anything I've learned from this experience it is that my proposals, from now on, will simply not include numbers or values (at least not publicly) because the Dust 514 community has shown, without a shadow of a doubt, that they cannot remain objective when numbers - even conceptual and placeholder - are presented and will don Prototype Tinfoil in an effort to destroy a perceived threat while completely ignoring the entire premise of a proposal. Run on sentences aside I'm starting to understand very clearly why CCP simply doesn't talk 90% of the time.
I dont see how this is helpful mate.
I know that you're better than this so please explain in simple terms how a buff to the shield stats of armour tanking suits is going to help you balance shield modules and fittings?
People have a problem with your proposal because before anything else it instantly smacks you in the face that certain suits appear to be getting a big buff. I look at the bonus you propose to give to the Amarr assault, the Gallente Assault, the Gallente Scout and feel that you are giving me even more of a reason to not run a primarily shielded suit.
Without proposals for how this will help you change the actual modules I can only see this.
"Madness how we turned our common-ground into a battle-ground.." - Essa
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.19 12:26:00 -
[79] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:I initially had a very long drawn out post about the concepts and principles of design but I think those of you who are smart enough to use illustrations and context clues can easily understand how frustrating some of these comments are once I provide you something to look at. Those of you who can't... Well, let's just say that god loves all of his children. http://discoverdesign.org/files/images/general/design_process_0.gifWe're in between the Brainstorm and Analyze and Feedback portions, respectively. I'll let you figure out what that means for why getting bent out of shape over the numbers presented in this proposal is just downright silly. If it is anything I've learned from this experience it is that my proposals, from now on, will simply not include numbers or values (at least not publicly) because the Dust 514 community has shown, without a shadow of a doubt, that they cannot remain objective when numbers - even conceptual and placeholder - are presented and will don Prototype Tinfoil in an effort to destroy a perceived threat while completely ignoring the entire premise of a proposal. Run on sentences aside I'm starting to understand very clearly why CCP simply doesn't talk 90% of the time. I dont see how this is helpful mate. I know that you're better than this so please explain in simple terms how a buff to the shield stats of armour tanking suits is going to help you balance shield modules and fittings? People have a problem with your proposal because before anything else it instantly smacks you in the face that certain suits appear to be getting a big buff. I look at the bonus you propose to give to the Amarr assault, the Gallente Assault, the Gallente Scout and feel that you are giving me even more of a reason to not run a primarily shielded suit. Without proposals for how this will help you change the actual modules I can only see this.
And that was my fault. Had they never seen the placeholder numbers, designed specifically and for no other reason than to show the design flow and pathway of Race (Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente > Amarr) and Role (Scout > Logistics > Assault > Commando > Sentinel) it would have never even been raised as an issue. There is literally nothing to this proposal besides that design structure, one that follows the EHP to Speed Ratio that has shown marked success despite baseless claims of otherwise. Had I just left those values blank and nebulous this argument would have never been brought up.
It's a learning experience.
EDIT: and how it would help the modules is that, right now, if you change say, shield rechargers from a 45% bonus to a 40% bonus (or 50% or 100% or 1000% or -100053053005%, don't get bent out of shape over this or I swear to christ I'll have the post deleted)... It affects every suit differently in ways we can't begin to predict for without extensive theorycrafting and spreadsheet work because of this. If you change the module, because it is percentage based, it affects every suit differently as opposed to say, Shield Extenders, which have a set, flat-rate value that is consistent no matter what suit it's on.
Without this foundation/baseline it is impossible to predict the effect changing shield modules will have. It may break some suits, it may make others OP. The amount of time and effort that would be spent trying to predict those effects is impractical and requires a set design that we can get an idea of the effects. That is literally all this proposal is for but it got derailed because of armor phobia.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.19 12:36:00 -
[80] - Quote
TL/DR: Set a racial regen baseline common for all racial suits. Move scouts and sentinels beyond that baseline for reasons of hit and run (scouts) and defence (sentinels). Deal with armour - shield balance separately by buffing shield regen mods.
Explanation:
The more I think about this CMP proposal, the more problems I have with it all.
Looking at the current stats, there are some clear patterns and design philosophies, albeit with some outliers.
Essentially what we have now, is medium suits as the benchmark for shield regen. Scouts then have better regen to emphasise hit and run gameplay. Sentinels have better regen as they are the most tanky class and need to rely on self-regen, since there is no option to support shield regen remotely. Also remember that the game is designed so that the specialised suits (heavies, and lights) have better base stats in trade for less slots, in order to push them to certain roles, in comparison to mediums that have more slots to allow more choice in what stats they want their suit to have. I don't see anything wrong with these principles. However a more straight forward system may be possible.
Commandos are similar to mediums, and are set up with inferior shield regen stats. I think most people agree this should be changed.
The proposal here is to change shield regen from medium < sentinel < scout to sentinel < medium < scout.
To do this you either massively nerf sentinel regen, or massively buff medium regen. The numbers provided go with the buff mediums option.
I appreciate that the specific numbers are up for debate, but whatever values are chosen, this design principle will always result in a relative nerf to sentinels and scouts compared to mediums. It could be argued that shield tanking sentinels and scouts are fine, and it is the shield tanking mediums that need a buff. Now, I know balance isn't the goal here, it's clear design principle. But this leads us to another problem.
Buffing shields on all mediums buffs armour tankers as well as shield tankers. It seems that it would be more of a buff to shield tankers, but it is unclear how much more of an advantage they would gain. Again, balance isn't the goal here, and this further emphasises the fact that this is not a balancing exercise. Balancing would need to be considered separately after the design philosophy is pinned down.
So, let's think about medium suits in isolation for a moment. Ignoring balance, is it a good idea to change their shield regen stats? I think the key goal here, is to have a system that encourages shield tankers to fit extenders, rechargers/energisers and regulators, whilst leaving some room for some other modules, and encourage armour tankers not to fit shield modules. The system should not be draconian and should leave open the possibility for weird fits such as shield tanking armour suits, vice vera, or dual tanking. However these should not be the optimal fits.
If base regen stats on mediums are too good it discourages the use of regen mods. Yes rechargers are buffed by base recharge being buffed, since they are percentage based. However the opposite is true of regulators as they are a percentage reduction. Buffing base regen also amounts to a buff to extenders, further encouraging the fitting of purely extenders, which leads to dual tanking, and a boring "king hp" meta.
If medium suit regen is buffed, without targeting specifically at shield/armour balance, light and heavy suits would also need to be buffed to maintain balance.
Scouts already have very good shield regen stats, so it would be difficult to buff them in a shield regen update.
For this reason I think it would be wise to leave medium suit shield regen at a similar level to what it is now.
So with medium suit regen kept constant, to maintain the proposed regen relationship of heavy < medium < scout, sentinel shield regen would need a significant nerf. This presents a problem because how to you buff sentinels in a way that makes up for nerfing their shield regen? It's a thing that shield tanking sentinels rely on heavily, as there is no remote shield regen option in game.
I have a proposal to solve this problem:
As Aeon proposed in this shield proposal 1. Set shield regen stats equal for all suits of a particular race.
BUT
Then improve scout shield regen on the basis of specialising the suit for hit and run combat, and improve sentinel shield regen stats on the basis that they are the suits design to be the most defensive, and need better regen rates as they have more hp to regen.
Think of these modifications to the design principle in the same way that assault suits are allowed to break the hp/speed curve. Assaults are designed to be both "fast and durable" (see the description in the loadout progression window). Therefore they have more hp and speed than they would otherwise be allowed.
Deal with shield to armour balance by buffing shield regen modules. These are modules rarely used by armour tankers or scouts and so will target the buff squarely at the underperforming shield tankers. |
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.19 12:42:00 -
[81] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:TL/DR: Set a racial regen baseline common for all racial suits. Move scouts and sentinels beyond that baseline for reasons of hit and run (scouts) and defence (sentinels). Deal with armour - shield balance separately by buffing shield regen mods.
-snip-.
And finally, we have something that is rational, logical, and most of all useful.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
4
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 12:42:00 -
[82] - Quote
You shouldn't get so butthurt about people finding flaws with your numbers or presentation aeon, that's how debate ****ing works: you attempt to find flaws within given statements and point out where and why they're mistaken.
But hey, if you're too good to engage in debate with the community maybe you shouldn't be representing us. Maybe it's just a case of you being too thin skinned.
Posting numbers is good, getting feedback that says "Your numbers have issues" is better, getting butthurt and declaring "I WILL NOT DISCUSS THINGS WITH PEOPLE I AM SUPPOSED TO REPRESENT BECAUSE SOMETIMES THEY HURT MY FEELINGS OR DISAGREE WITH ME IN MANNERS I DON'T LIKE, PARTICULARLY BY CALLING INTO QUESTION MY MOTIVES OR MY TRACK RECORD" is ****ing juvenile, pull up your big girl panties and use some no more tears shampoo.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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Devadander
Woodgrain Atari
693
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 13:06:00 -
[83] - Quote
My entire suit list is shield. I don't feel like this will make the difference we need.
We need to look into racial bonuses much like eve, where you get your normal stats for skilling each level, but the frame will have a set bonus just for being them.
This could enhance shield tanking without armor suits getting more love than they already have.
Look at the modules, tinker with them, give caldari a shield module fitting bonus.
Anything but this.
The cal assault just keeps getting worse and worse.....
Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå
Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.19 13:35:00 -
[84] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:
1) Essentially what we have now, is medium suits as the benchmark for shield regen. Scouts then have better regen to emphasise hit and run gameplay. Sentinels have better regen as they are the most tanky class and need to rely on self-regen, since there is no option to support shield regen remotely. Also remember that the game is designed so that the specialised suits (heavies, and lights) have better base stats in trade for less slots, in order to push them to certain roles, in comparison to mediums that have more slots to allow more choice in what stats they want their suit to have. I don't see anything wrong with these principles.
2.) I appreciate that the specific numbers are up for debate, but whatever values are chosen, this design principle will always result in a relative nerf to sentinels and scouts compared to mediums. It could be argued that shield tanking sentinels and scouts are fine, and it is the shield tanking mediums that need a buff. Now, I know balance isn't the goal here, it's clear design principle. But this leads us to another problem.
3) If base regen stats on mediums are too good it discourages the use of regen mods. Yes rechargers are buffed by base recharge being buffed, since they are percentage based. However the opposite is true of regulators as they are a percentage reduction. Buffing base regen also amounts to a buff to extenders, further encouraging the fitting of purely extenders, which leads to dual tanking, and a boring "king hp" meta.
4) So with medium suit regen kept constant, to maintain the proposed regen relationship of heavy < medium < scout, sentinel shield regen would need a significant nerf. This presents a problem because how to you buff sentinels in a way that makes up for nerfing their shield regen? It's a thing that shield tanking sentinels rely on heavily, as there is no remote shield regen option in game.
First of all, thank you so much for actually bothering to explain your position instead of repeating the same phrases.
1) To better explain why medium frames were chosen to have a higher regen it was delegated in the CPM, as well as posted by Cross Atu somewhere in this thread, that a role can have high EHP or high Regen, but not both. As such it was addressed early on that Logistics should have the higher regen than Assault suits because they lack the EHP necessary to justify or validate the higher regen. When we look at Commandos and Sentinels, yes, Commandos are in a bad place. That is going to change no matter what. The Heavy suits themselves however have enormous EHP gains compared to their lighter comparisions and having high regen with that may be problematic. Your feedback is something that is going to be considered very heavily though, as I agree that their fitting versatility should be factored in.
2) Balance is the goal, but not with this initial proposal. To achieve balance we need something to go off of and somewhere to go to. The foundation and design is the principle element there and it is open for feedback and debate, hence this thread. Medium Frames do not -have- to be the baseline. Caldari don't even have to be the primary shield tankers, we just assume them to be because it is how it has always worked in both Eve and Dust. It's all subject for debate but we need -something- for the foundation because what we currently have simply does not work. This proposal was made with cautious optimism from the CPM as the optimal solution, but feedback can (and will) change that. Provided it is productive and objective minded...
3) Bearing in mind, of course, that shield regen can and will be stopped by taking damage - even fall damage, which was also heavily considered as a primary pain point, particularly to Scouts with their lower EHP. Whether or not it encourages or discourages the use of 'x, y, and z' module remains to be seen, as the drawbacks of the higher regen go hand in hand with EHP. The higher EHP suits have less necessity for extenders and, by design, would benefit more from regen. The opposite is true for lighter roles which already have a high regen but require more EHP. This sort of fluctuating balance can be hallmarked and exacted on.
The balance spectrum can be adjusted at either the suit or module level, but again this can only take place once we have something concise to go off of: A foundation. That applies to both shield and armor as we [the CPM] are unanimously hesitant to nerf armor when shields are so chaotic and lacking.
4) This was an issue brought up previously in the Racial Shield Stats discussion (though I'm not sure if it was in the forum thread). Racial Shield Stats would have addressed that concern in that every race would have had standardized shield stats, so it wouldn't have been as necessary to nerf sentinels. This was problematic as it would bring Scouts down as well. That homogenization was found to be subpar and led to this proposal of a hybrid solution. It is in no way set in stone and Sentinels can even have higher regen. Its up for debate.
Ran out of space.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.19 13:36:00 -
[85] - Quote
Devadander wrote:My entire suit list is shield. I don't feel like this will make the difference we need.
We need to look into racial bonuses much like eve, where you get your normal stats for skilling each level, but the frame will have a set bonus just for being them.
This could enhance shield tanking without armor suits getting more love than they already have.
Look at the modules, tinker with them, give caldari a shield module fitting bonus.
Anything but this.
The cal assault just keeps getting worse and worse.....
How would that address the problem of shield modules being percentage based having to handle up on this ?
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Devadander
Woodgrain Atari
693
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 13:54:00 -
[86] - Quote
I'll make a constructive post.
We all know when we say 'shield tanking..' we mean caldari.
So gal and ama need zero change.
Minmatar already have the best of all worlds, so no soup for you.
Calsent - I can make a beastly regentinel, does me zero good when trying to hold a point.
Maybe a flux resistance on top of current stats? More ehp is actually a good thing for this suit, not more regen.
Cal-scout - already has wicked regen possibilities. It's a scout, not an assault. It's right where it should be. (Buff to scan range....)
Calmando - I still workhorse this suit, but side by side it still pales. THIS suit YES needs some regen love. A tad more pg/cpu wouldn't kill it either....
Cal-ass - we just keep pooping on this suit. The speed nerf took the last bit of 'I'm fast cause I'm shielded' away. Due to module costs, fitting a survivable assault (that's not plated...) is harder than it should be. People who don't run it want it to be worthless inside 50 meters. Shorter regen times miiight help, but it will still be cpu screwed when you try to make it shield discipline.
If it was me, I would give a new suit bonus on top of role bonus that reduces shield module fitting costs and go from there.
And now the one I can't even...
Callogi.... Just remove it from game already. Or let it shine. *drops mic*
*wait, I still need that*
I see the desire to keep this fair, and cannot respect it. Shields (caldari) have been SoL for a long time now. Caldari only needs a rework here. Sorry if it hurts your butt.
Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå
Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
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Devadander
Woodgrain Atari
693
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 13:59:00 -
[87] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Devadander wrote:My entire suit list is shield. I don't feel like this will make the difference we need.
We need to look into racial bonuses much like eve, where you get your normal stats for skilling each level, but the frame will have a set bonus just for being them.
This could enhance shield tanking without armor suits getting more love than they already have.
Look at the modules, tinker with them, give caldari a shield module fitting bonus.
Anything but this.
The cal assault just keeps getting worse and worse..... How would that address the problem of shield modules being percentage based having to handle up on this ?
If all caldari suits had a shield module fitting reduction, this thread would not exist.
Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå
Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
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DiablosMajora
297
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Posted - 2015.09.19 14:04:00 -
[88] - Quote
Is it possible to have suits or BPOs that only show up in the Special Contracts with some of these stats so ideas could be playtested without affecting normal matches?
Prepare your angus
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Devadander
Woodgrain Atari
693
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Posted - 2015.09.19 14:08:00 -
[89] - Quote
I don't want to have to textwallate every post...
This thread suggests that all suits have a shield problem, hence the need for normalization..
But the fact, carved into maths and observable data, is that the only race that feels the shields lackluster performance ATM IS CALDARI! This could be solved with one addition, a fitting bonus for shield mods.
Data and math will also show you how a max plated cal anything outperforms its non-plated counterpart, even if max shield fitted.
Cover is a joke. Take cover from one, and the guy on the hill finishes the job. Long range is a joke. We now have fatties that can fly and cross huge gaps in a single sprint.
Dust has changed a lot. Time to bring the caldari back to speed.
Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå
Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.19 14:09:00 -
[90] - Quote
Devadander wrote:
If all caldari suits had a shield module fitting reduction, this thread would not exist.
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Devadander
Woodgrain Atari
693
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 14:09:00 -
[91] - Quote
DiablosMajora wrote:Is it possible to have suits or BPOs that only show up in the Special Contracts with some of these stats so ideas could be playtested without affecting normal matches?
That would be ideal, and also amazing.
Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå
Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
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Grease Spillett
OSG Planetary Operations
929
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 14:13:00 -
[92] - Quote
The best example of shield tanking is the cal scout. They need to consider simply increasing shield regulators recharge delay or just the caldari race in general.
Somebody call for an exterminator?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx0bJCvSFeA
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DiablosMajora
297
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Posted - 2015.09.19 14:19:00 -
[93] - Quote
Devadander wrote:DiablosMajora wrote:Is it possible to have suits or BPOs that only show up in the Special Contracts with some of these stats so ideas could be playtested without affecting normal matches? That would be ideal, and also amazing.
You could make an event out of it too!
The Isukone Corporation is conducting live-fire tests for its R&D Department. All volunteers get a special paintjob and/or X number of newly produced Modules, fresh off the line once mass-production has begun.
Edit: this would give devs and CPM live playstats to use for analysis and their own research.
Prepare your angus
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
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Posted - 2015.09.19 14:20:00 -
[94] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:I appreciate the fact that you acknowledge that there is an imbalance between shields and armour but I strongly suggest that these proposals are not the answer.
I really dont see how buffing Gallente Scout and Assault shield stats so much helps anyone.
EDIT - I see that the answer to my above statement is - it is more about having a baseline to work from rather than buffs to armour suits but I still cant help but feel this is iffy...
Why dont we for the love of all things just look at the stats from the current shield modules and adjust those? Regulator buffs, extender buffs (How about removing the shield delay penalty from extenders).
Also its all great trying to balance base stats but how on earth can we ever have balance when Armour has triage hives and repair tools and Shields have none of those? Please explain to me how balance can ever be achieved.
Go and speak to people in EVE and ask them if it would be fair to remove shield logistics modules and ships.....
Without a baseline moving the values on the % based shield mods is highly problematic. It has been looked into a number of times and every method fails because in essence increasing them enough to matter, increases them too much to be acceptable in certain cases, hence the requirement for a baseline. With a baseline in place tuning the mods themselves becomes much more attainable and is something being readily considered, just not as the first step.
CommanderBolt wrote:Also its all great trying to balance base stats but how on earth can we ever have balance when Armour has triage hives and repair tools and Shields have none of those? Please explain to me how balance can ever be achieved.
I quite agree that support options for shield based squad and play is a currently lacking element in Dust 514.
I have been, and staunchly remain, a proponent of a shield transporter (shield rep tool) at minimum.
It's also important to remember how things function within their context, to grab fictional numbers that do not represent the proposal, if you have a armor tanked suit with 1000 armor and 75 shields gaining a reduced shield rep delay it's not going to be meaningful in most contexts. Now clearly the fictional numbers are exaggerated and illustrative not literal by any means but the point remains that building a conceptual foundation is the requisite first step when looking to build actual stats for things like better polish H/L slot mods for shield work, and shield support modules.
Thanks for the participation
Cross
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.19 14:21:00 -
[95] - Quote
Devadander wrote:I don't want to have to textwallate every post...
This thread suggests that all suits have a shield problem, hence the need for normalization..
But the fact, carved into maths and observable data, is that the only race that feels the shields lackluster performance ATM IS CALDARI! This could be solved with one addition, a fitting bonus for shield mods.
Data and math will also show you how a max plated cal anything outperforms its non-plated counterpart, even if max shield fitted.
Cover is a joke. Take cover from one, and the guy on the hill finishes the job. Long range is a joke. We now have fatties that can fly and cross huge gaps in a single sprint.
Dust has changed a lot. Time to bring the caldari back to speed.
I can't even begin to wrap my head around the Caldari Assault getting higher shield recharge and less shield delay being a bad thing.... And no, the thread does -not- suggest that all suits have a shield problem, it suggests that all shield modules have a problem because of reasons that have already been well explained at least three times now.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Devadander
Woodgrain Atari
693
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 14:34:00 -
[96] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Devadander wrote:I don't want to have to textwallate every post...
This thread suggests that all suits have a shield problem, hence the need for normalization..
But the fact, carved into maths and observable data, is that the only race that feels the shields lackluster performance ATM IS CALDARI! This could be solved with one addition, a fitting bonus for shield mods.
Data and math will also show you how a max plated cal anything outperforms its non-plated counterpart, even if max shield fitted.
Cover is a joke. Take cover from one, and the guy on the hill finishes the job. Long range is a joke. We now have fatties that can fly and cross huge gaps in a single sprint.
Dust has changed a lot. Time to bring the caldari back to speed. I can't even begin to wrap my head around the Caldari Assault getting higher shield recharge and less shield delay being a bad thing.... And no, the thread does -not- suggest that all suits have a shield problem, it suggests that all shield modules have a problem because of reasons that have already been well explained at least three times now.
So you disagree that giving the cal as a race a fitting bonus to shield mods would fix all this?
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Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 14:37:00 -
[97] - Quote
Mina Longstrike wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:The reason it works is because Gallente aren't exactly being saved by their shields on a regular basis. All it is is a small buffer before they get into their main tank. I don't see how a small buff to delay is going to make Gal suits suddenly OP. That's like worrying that sentinels getting a 0.1 m/s sprint speed buff will make them god mode: it's a buff, sure, but not one to even warrant attention, much less worry. A 'small buffer' that they'd get to use in effectively every engagement? with delays and recharge values that make you go "Hey, maybe I'll put one complex extender on here so I can have 200 hp, and get it all back in ~10 seconds all the time". Meanwhile the actual shield tanked suits do not possess this buffer and when they take armor damage it stays there for ungodly amounts of time (values can be in the minutes range, eg cal sent has 487 armor and reps at 1/sec natively) if you don't have a rep or a reactive fit and even then that doesn't shorten it by much. This exacerbates existent problems, because armor is already the clearly better tanking style for a wide variety of reasons... so in attempting to 'address' the woes of shield users, somehow a nice sneaky and rather large buff to shield tanking for armor suits gets wiggled in there too. Do armor tanks need a buff to their ability to shield tank? No. Why are they getting one? Because purple prose and [reasons]. Meanwhile lets yammer on about pendulum balance. Shield tanking should be buffed independently, armor tankers should not be recieving any buffs to their shields at the moment (with the sole exceptions being armor commandos, who do often rely on their shields and could use some love)
Mina if you have specific, and I do mean specific, concerns please do itemize them for me with examples.
I've spoken at length on the forums and occasionally in squads you know I'm inclined to discussion rather than dogma.
If your critique of the method is that some of the particular numbers aren't where you'd like them to be then I would say two things.
1) The method is not about particular numbers, it's about having a functional context and is needed in that way.
2) Since the method is macro not micro, the particular numbers are much more negotiable and any specific cases of concern you have are certainly something that could be taken into account, please provide them.
Show me for example the points of concern regarding the application of the method.
- Cal Assault vs Gal Assault pre and post change and why post change is a downgrade for the Cal
- Cal Sentinel vs Gal Sentinel (or Min vs Am if you'd rather) and why/how the situation post change is a down grade compared to present.
- Calmando vs Minmando and how the method weakens Cal post change vs Min, relative to current suit stats.
If your concern lies in the role to role balance rather than race to race, that's murkier due to there being shield and armor tankers within every role, but if roles are your concern would you outline Commando vs Scout to show me where the proposal weakens one vs the other in a detrimental and undue fashion, or Sentinel vs Assault with the same case.
The key thing to remember in this case is that when comparing roles we must not mix and match, the comparison of roles needs to remain within the same race. If there's a racial concern then use method one from above.
@Thread, this is an open invitation to any participants in this thread, please give me your input here.
A reminder in this context however, we are working on a shield balance method so things like rifle balance (which likely could use some polish) are not part of this assessment. Further the assessment is not meant as a short term/stop gap tweak to stats in response to the current player meta (i.e. use trends) but rather a foundation context, as such anecdotal evidence regarding frequency of use of X vs Y isn't relevant here because that's a transient micro view and while useful and relevant for various things we're not at the stage where it is useful here (that would come later once a workable foundation is built).
Cheers,
Cross
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.19 14:40:00 -
[98] - Quote
Devadander wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Devadander wrote:I don't want to have to textwallate every post...
This thread suggests that all suits have a shield problem, hence the need for normalization..
But the fact, carved into maths and observable data, is that the only race that feels the shields lackluster performance ATM IS CALDARI! This could be solved with one addition, a fitting bonus for shield mods.
Data and math will also show you how a max plated cal anything outperforms its non-plated counterpart, even if max shield fitted.
Cover is a joke. Take cover from one, and the guy on the hill finishes the job. Long range is a joke. We now have fatties that can fly and cross huge gaps in a single sprint.
Dust has changed a lot. Time to bring the caldari back to speed. I can't even begin to wrap my head around the Caldari Assault getting higher shield recharge and less shield delay being a bad thing.... And no, the thread does -not- suggest that all suits have a shield problem, it suggests that all shield modules have a problem because of reasons that have already been well explained at least three times now. So you disagree that giving the cal as a race a fitting bonus to shield mods would fix all this?
Kind of a loaded question. I don't think it would fix everything, it might help fix Caldari but it won't address the core issue being described in this thread. It would just be a bandaid solution for one race that will inevitably have to be addressed later on as the game progresses and develops.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Devadander
Woodgrain Atari
693
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 14:42:00 -
[99] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Devadander wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Devadander wrote:I don't want to have to textwallate every post...
This thread suggests that all suits have a shield problem, hence the need for normalization..
But the fact, carved into maths and observable data, is that the only race that feels the shields lackluster performance ATM IS CALDARI! This could be solved with one addition, a fitting bonus for shield mods.
Data and math will also show you how a max plated cal anything outperforms its non-plated counterpart, even if max shield fitted.
Cover is a joke. Take cover from one, and the guy on the hill finishes the job. Long range is a joke. We now have fatties that can fly and cross huge gaps in a single sprint.
Dust has changed a lot. Time to bring the caldari back to speed. I can't even begin to wrap my head around the Caldari Assault getting higher shield recharge and less shield delay being a bad thing.... And no, the thread does -not- suggest that all suits have a shield problem, it suggests that all shield modules have a problem because of reasons that have already been well explained at least three times now. So you disagree that giving the cal as a race a fitting bonus to shield mods would fix all this? Kind of a loaded question. I don't think it would fix everything, it might help fix Caldari but it won't address the core issue being described in this thread. It would just be a bandaid solution for one race that will inevitably have to be addressed later on as the game progresses and develops.
The title of the thread said shield stats... /hardfacepalm
Edit: MEANING CALDARI
Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå
Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.19 14:47:00 -
[100] - Quote
Devadander wrote:
The title of the thread said shield stats... /hardfacepalm
Edit: MEANING CALDARI
http://media.giphy.com/media/mWMML2LQBsj8k/giphy.gif
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Devadander
Woodgrain Atari
693
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 15:01:00 -
[101] - Quote
Priceless, you won't even consider a racial bonus. Then respond with that. I've tried to keep my loathing of you out of this....
And will continue to do so.
Is it hard to add a suit bonus? Can we consider/try it for a time? Anyone feel like the current shield situation concerns anyone BUT caldari?
Reducing module costs allows the other races to benefit from something they have plenty of. Ehp/regain.
We won't even consider tools/equipment... So forget that.
Raising the mythical threshold would benefit all again.
And as a caldari (shield user) I can get PLENTY of regen, but once it's gone its gone. (Same applies to armor but it does not strip as fast, has multiple regen options, and even a max RR on a max calmando has to chew on armor)
I don't want to see ehp become the meta either so at this point I could link the same gif.....
Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå
Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 15:02:00 -
[102] - Quote
I'll go line by line here because I think there are key aspects to address which your post raises o7
Devadander wrote:I'll make a constructive post.
We all know when we say 'shield tanking..' we mean caldari.
I won't try to classify everyone but when I say shield tanking I mean Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente > Amarr which I believe is a key distinction, as this is about providing a unified conceptual foundation for overall game balance, not a light buff to one race due to the current meta situation.
Devadander wrote:So gal and ama need zero change.
Minmatar already have the best of all worlds, so no soup for you.
They all need to fit within the same system/method regardless of where their raw stat profiles ultimately land.
If there's a problem with the stats they can be tuned within the method, if there's a problem with the method not the specific stats then now is the perfect time to address that at a macro (not current meta/numbers) level and find an alternate method. The only non-negotiable aspect here AFAIK is whether or not there is a method in place at all. There needs to be a method, some method. It can be this one, or another, but the prior status of non-unified profiles is something that needs to be moved beyond.
Devadander wrote:I see the desire to keep this fair, and cannot respect it. Shields (caldari) have been SoL for a long time now. Caldari only needs a rework here. Sorry if it hurts your butt.
It's not a question of what's "fair" per se, it's a question of having a viable foundation/framework for long term development and polish. Ultimately that should result in a fair and balanced game you are absolutely correct, but this is not about a single step direct redress to the current meta, nor is it about using history to assess which race, role, or sub-combo now deserves their turn to be our shiny new FotM. It is in fact about building something so as to preclude that type of pattern as much as possible.
I have zero racial bias in Dust, I play them all, I have them all to proto in more than one role, my min scout is stronger than people seem to give it credit for, my cal scout is doing quite well for itself, my cal logi cries itself to sleep every night, my manndos all seem "out of breath" a lot of the time, and my Min Assault - even with the semi-recent changes - still kind of laughs at most of the other suits and tells them to HTFU.
But this isn't about hyper-focus on one race, this is about having a foundational methodology so that other things within that, such as possible racial imbalances, can be addressed properly.
In essence the question of "is Cal in a good space" comes after this question, not during, before, or instead of.
Unless of course - specifically with regards to shields - you have an objection with the proposed racial hierarchy of
Cal > Min > Gal > Am. If you object to that then please do elaborate on why so it can be taken into account as part of the feedback process.
There's tons of relevant and accurate feedback out there, and getting it all is worthwhile, but it is not all relevant to every thread or topic no matter how accurate or pertinent it is.
Cheers,
Cross
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.19 15:08:00 -
[103] - Quote
Devadander wrote:Priceless, you won't even consider a racial bonus. Then respond with that. I've tried to keep my loathing of you out of this....
I never once said I wouldn't consider a racial bonus. I said it was a band-aid solution to a higher problem. See Cross's above post because he's a lot more PC and friendly than I'm going to be with this and that's all I'm going to say on the matter.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
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Posted - 2015.09.19 15:11:00 -
[104] - Quote
Devadander wrote:This thread suggests that all suits have a shield problem, hence the need for normalization..
I think this is the point of disconnect. My motive for advocating - both in this thread and elsewhere - that there be a macro level method for each system is not exclusively about identifying a problem in the current game meta. That is of course relevant, for example if there were an area of balance that seemed spot on I'd likely try to look at it and derive the method already in play.
However, the point is that foundational methodologies are key to further development, they maximize time and effectiveness.
I could cite my conversations with CCP Rattati as support for this, but I don't need to evoke the NDA chats to highlight this fact, everyone can see how much CCP Rattati calls for this and moves toward this in his work throughout the last year. One of the most recent clear examples is the Speed to eHP ratio thread he posted.
For the sake of development efficacy having a stated foundational method is important and valuable even if present balance were considered perfect. (Not that it is  )
Hence, this thread states that one is needed - because it is regardless of current in game meta, this is as much an out of game concern as an in game one - and invites the community to participate in feedback on establishing that required method.
Almost everything is up for debate when it comes to the particulars, but due to the nature of structured development I assure you there will be a method put in place even if the community and CPM remain utterly silent on the issue, as such I'd rather we all collaborate now so as to have our input involved.
Cheers,
Cross
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Devadander
Woodgrain Atari
693
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 15:12:00 -
[105] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:I'll go line by line here because I think there are key aspects to address which your post raises o7 Devadander wrote:I'll make a constructive post.
We all know when we say 'shield tanking..' we mean caldari. I won't try to classify everyone but when I say shield tanking I mean Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente > Amarr which I believe is a key distinction, as this is about providing a unified conceptual foundation for overall game balance, not a light buff to one race due to the current meta situation. Devadander wrote:So gal and ama need zero change.
Minmatar already have the best of all worlds, so no soup for you. They all need to fit within the same system/method regardless of where their raw stat profiles ultimately land. If there's a problem with the stats they can be tuned within the method, if there's a problem with the method not the specific stats then now is the perfect time to address that at a macro (not current meta/numbers) level and find an alternate method. The only non-negotiable aspect here AFAIK is whether or not there is a method in place at all. There needs to be a method, some method. It can be this one, or another, but the prior status of non-unified profiles is something that needs to be moved beyond. Devadander wrote:I see the desire to keep this fair, and cannot respect it. Shields (caldari) have been SoL for a long time now. Caldari only needs a rework here. Sorry if it hurts your butt. It's not a question of what's "fair" per se, it's a question of having a viable foundation/framework for long term development and polish. Ultimately that should result in a fair and balanced game you are absolutely correct, but this is not about a single step direct redress to the current meta, nor is it about using history to assess which race, role, or sub-combo now deserves their turn to be our shiny new FotM. It is in fact about building something so as to preclude that type of pattern as much as possible. I have zero racial bias in Dust, I play them all, I have them all to proto in more than one role, my min scout is stronger than people seem to give it credit for, my cal scout is doing quite well for itself, my cal logi cries itself to sleep every night, my manndos all seem "out of breath" a lot of the time, and my Min Assault - even with the semi-recent changes - still kind of laughs at most of the other suits and tells them to HTFU. But this isn't about hyper-focus on one race, this is about having a foundational methodology so that other things within that, such as possible racial imbalances, can be addressed properly. In essence the question of "is Cal in a good space" comes after this question, not during, before, or instead of. Unless of course - specifically with regards to shields - you have an objection with the proposed racial hierarchy of Cal > Min > Gal > Am. If you object to that then please do elaborate on why so it can be taken into account as part of the feedback process. There's tons of relevant and accurate feedback out there, and getting it all is worthwhile, but it is not all relevant to every thread or topic no matter how accurate or pertinent it is. Cheers, Cross
Thank you sir.
I agree with the order no doubt as far as effectiveness and supposed to have. Just feeling like more regen is not going to be a boon. However, if its just the beginning I guess we have to start somewhere.
Threshold, if it can be tuned per race, could be a good next step. I have a phone pic of a 99m kill on me from a militia CR and he was the only one shooting at me as I ran to redline depot to refill.
But I still feel strongly on the caldari receiving a fitting bonus to make the modules shine when the pure shield race fits them.
Idk, either way, here nor there, thanks for being you and knowing how to shut me up xD
Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå
Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
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Nirwanda Vaughns
1
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Posted - 2015.09.19 15:14:00 -
[106] - Quote
I'd really love it if my C-II BPOs shield hp got fixed at some point too. same as the recruit C-I
Please fix my C-II hitpoints!!
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.19 15:22:00 -
[107] - Quote
So I put down some example numbers for my shield regen proposal:
Shield regen proposal
This is based on the following principles:
Racial shield regen stats:
Caldari - 30hp/s 5s delay.
Minmatar - 25hp/s 6s delay.
Gallente/Amarr - 20hp/s 7s delay.
Scouts get 50% superior shield regen and delay. This is to facilitate stealthy hit and run combat.
Sentinels get 20% superior shield regen and delay. This is to facilitate defensive combat.
You will notice from the highlighted buffs and nerfs, that this design results in little change to most suits, except for commandos (especially Caldari) which get buffed.
More specifically, sentinels and logis get their regen rate buffed slightly, but their delay nerfed slightly at the same time.
Minmatar scouts get their regen nerfed, but their delay buffed.
Caldari sentinels recieve a small buff to regen rate.
In my opinion this provides a sensible and neat design principle, resulting in very little change to actual balance. With the exception of commandos, particularly Caldari, which get their shield regen buffed.
Armour shield balance can be addressed separately. I suggest buffing shield regen mods, since this would specifically target medium and heavy shield tankers, who are the ones that need a buff.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 15:24:00 -
[108] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:
@Thread, this is an open invitation to any participants in this thread, please give me your input here.
o/ Cross
Here's an alternative method:
Google Doc
Despite what the bubble chart on Page 1 suggests, there is in fact a clear progression in current shield stats. Present values were not assigned at random. The Google Doc above attempts to clean up the existing progression to make it more clear (labeled Step 1), and then it achieves the target inverse relationship between Recovery and HP potential (labeled Step 2).
This model diverges most evidently from Aeon's in that a more logical framework is established without substantial buffs to shield performance of Armor Tankers. This isn't a comprehensive solution, rather (like Aeon's model) this is a framework upon which to build. |
Devadander
Woodgrain Atari
693
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 15:28:00 -
[109] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Cross Atu wrote:
@Thread, this is an open invitation to any participants in this thread, please give me your input here.
o/ Cross Here's an alternative method: Google DocDespite what the bubble chart on Page 1 suggests, there is in fact a clear progression in current shield stats. Present values were not assigned at random. The Google Doc above attempts to clean up the existing progression to make it more clear (labeled Step 1), and then it achieves the target inverse relationship between Recovery and HP potential (labeled Step 2). This model diverges most evidently from Aeon's in that a more logical framework is established without substantial buffs to shield performance of Armor Tankers. This isn't a comprehensive solution, rather (like Aeon's model) this is a framework upon which to build.
The 8 second depleted on calmando needs to go away.
Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå
Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 15:30:00 -
[110] - Quote
Devadander wrote:Cross Atu wrote:I'll go line by line here because I think there are key aspects to address which your post raises o7 Devadander wrote:I'll make a constructive post.
We all know when we say 'shield tanking..' we mean caldari. I won't try to classify everyone but when I say shield tanking I mean Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente > Amarr which I believe is a key distinction, as this is about providing a unified conceptual foundation for overall game balance, not a light buff to one race due to the current meta situation. Devadander wrote:So gal and ama need zero change.
Minmatar already have the best of all worlds, so no soup for you. They all need to fit within the same system/method regardless of where their raw stat profiles ultimately land. If there's a problem with the stats they can be tuned within the method, if there's a problem with the method not the specific stats then now is the perfect time to address that at a macro (not current meta/numbers) level and find an alternate method. The only non-negotiable aspect here AFAIK is whether or not there is a method in place at all. There needs to be a method, some method. It can be this one, or another, but the prior status of non-unified profiles is something that needs to be moved beyond. Devadander wrote:I see the desire to keep this fair, and cannot respect it. Shields (caldari) have been SoL for a long time now. Caldari only needs a rework here. Sorry if it hurts your butt. It's not a question of what's "fair" per se, it's a question of having a viable foundation/framework for long term development and polish. Ultimately that should result in a fair and balanced game you are absolutely correct, but this is not about a single step direct redress to the current meta, nor is it about using history to assess which race, role, or sub-combo now deserves their turn to be our shiny new FotM. It is in fact about building something so as to preclude that type of pattern as much as possible. I have zero racial bias in Dust, I play them all, I have them all to proto in more than one role, my min scout is stronger than people seem to give it credit for, my cal scout is doing quite well for itself, my cal logi cries itself to sleep every night, my manndos all seem "out of breath" a lot of the time, and my Min Assault - even with the semi-recent changes - still kind of laughs at most of the other suits and tells them to HTFU. But this isn't about hyper-focus on one race, this is about having a foundational methodology so that other things within that, such as possible racial imbalances, can be addressed properly. In essence the question of "is Cal in a good space" comes after this question, not during, before, or instead of. Unless of course - specifically with regards to shields - you have an objection with the proposed racial hierarchy of Cal > Min > Gal > Am. If you object to that then please do elaborate on why so it can be taken into account as part of the feedback process. There's tons of relevant and accurate feedback out there, and getting it all is worthwhile, but it is not all relevant to every thread or topic no matter how accurate or pertinent it is. Cheers, Cross Thank you sir. I agree with the order no doubt as far as effectiveness and supposed to have. Just feeling like more regen is not going to be a boon. However, if its just the beginning I guess we have to start somewhere. Threshold, if it can be tuned per race, could be a good next step. I have a phone pic of a 99m kill on me from a militia CR and he was the only one shooting at me as I ran to redline depot to refill. But I still feel strongly on the caldari receiving a fitting bonus to make the modules shine when the pure shield race fits them. Idk, either way, here nor there, thanks for being you and knowing how to shut me up xD
I had not considered the idea of a racially tuned threshold but it is a good one that could further tune racial shield balance.
I've no idea of the tech feasibility but I'll see if I can find out o7
A fitting, and/or efficiency bonus for racially relevant mods (shields for cal, biotics for min, armor reps for gal, plates for ammar) does seem conceptually sound. It is my understanding that the current tech in Dust limits our ability to directly apply this method  however the mechanics that support it are valuable enough for both racial and role balance that I've advocated a change to the current iteration of code if at all possible. I do not know how labor intensive such a change might be so have no idea if/when we might see it but I'm hoping it is something that will be on the table in days to come.
Thanks for the constructive responses, I know it can be hard sometimes to frame ones thoughts clearly and more than that forums can be kittening frustrating in their nature, and the 'tone' of text readily lend itself to distortion of the writers intent.
So no worries mate, I'm glad you stuck it out with me till we could get to the heart of the ideas we both brought up here.
And again, thanks for mentioning that shield delay idea, the more tools in the box the better IMO 
Cheers,
Cross
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 15:31:00 -
[111] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Cross Atu wrote:
@Thread, this is an open invitation to any participants in this thread, please give me your input here.
o/ Cross Here's an alternative method: Google DocDespite what the bubble chart on Page 1 suggests, there is in fact a clear progression in current shield stats. Present values were not assigned at random. The Google Doc above attempts to clean up the existing progression to make it more clear (labeled Step 1), and then it achieves the target inverse relationship between Recovery and HP potential (labeled Step 2). This model diverges most evidently from Aeon's in that a more logical framework is established without substantial buffs to shield performance of Armor Tankers. This isn't a comprehensive solution, rather (like Aeon's model) this is a framework upon which to build.
Here ladies and gentleman is a merc that knows my fondness for data and spreadsheets.
Thank you for the doc and the link, I'll dive into it here shortly.
o7
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 15:33:00 -
[112] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:So I put down some example numbers for my shield regen proposal: Shield regen proposalThis is based on the following principles: Racial shield regen stats: Caldari - 30hp/s 5s delay. Minmatar - 25hp/s 6s delay. Gallente/Amarr - 20hp/s 7s delay. Scouts get 50% superior shield regen and delay. This is to facilitate stealthy hit and run combat. Sentinels get 20% superior shield regen and delay. This is to facilitate defensive combat. You will notice from the highlighted buffs and nerfs, that this design results in little change to most suits, except for commandos (especially Caldari) which get buffed. More specifically, sentinels and logis get their regen rate buffed slightly, but their delay nerfed slightly at the same time. Minmatar scouts get their regen nerfed, but their delay buffed. Caldari sentinels recieve a small buff to regen rate. In my opinion this provides a sensible and neat design principle, resulting in very little change to actual balance. With the exception of commandos, particularly Caldari, which get their shield regen buffed. Armour shield balance can be addressed separately. I suggest buffing shield regen mods, since this would specifically target medium and heavy shield tankers, who are the ones that need a buff.
More links (yes I'm reading this page from the bottom up xD ) thank you for the break down, I look forward to checking it out.
o7
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 15:34:00 -
[113] - Quote
Regen, scout only modification Go to tab "Scout only modification".
I've added another tab with a slightly simpler paradigm.
On tab one you will see stats for the following paradigms:
"All racial suits have the same shield regen stats, except for scouts who have a 50% bonus for hit and run."
"Caldari have the best regen as primary shield tankers. Minmatar have the next best as they should be functional at shield or armour tanking. Amarr and Gellente are both armour tankers and so should both have the least effective shield regen"
This results in a small nerf to Caldari sentinel delay.
Other sentinels get their regen buffed, but delay nerfed.
This is more simple than tab one, as it only has scouts as the exception. What do people think?
Summary:
Caldari suits 30hp/s 5s delay
Minmatar suits 25hp/s 6s delay
Gal/Am suits 20hp/s 7s delay
Scouts get +50% modification to shield regen.
I think I like this more than my previous idea, which included a 20% modification to sentinels. I think buffs to shield regen mods would both improve shield - armour balance, and counteract the slight shield sentinel nerf that would result from this proposal. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.19 15:38:00 -
[114] - Quote
Devadander wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Cross Atu wrote:
@Thread, this is an open invitation to any participants in this thread, please give me your input here.
o/ Cross Here's an alternative method: Google DocDespite what the bubble chart on Page 1 suggests, there is in fact a clear progression in current shield stats. Present values were not assigned at random. The Google Doc above attempts to clean up the existing progression to make it more clear (labeled Step 1), and then it achieves the target inverse relationship between Recovery and HP potential (labeled Step 2). This model diverges most evidently from Aeon's in that a more logical framework is established without substantial buffs to shield performance of Armor Tankers. This isn't a comprehensive solution, rather (like Aeon's model) this is a framework upon which to build. The 8 second depleted on calmando needs to go away.
I did notice that shield delays were abnormally high for the Commando class. If there isn't a good reason to keep them high, I'd absolutely support moving them closer in line with that of Assaults. |
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
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Posted - 2015.09.19 15:47:00 -
[115] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Devadander wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Cross Atu wrote:
@Thread, this is an open invitation to any participants in this thread, please give me your input here.
o/ Cross Here's an alternative method: Google DocDespite what the bubble chart on Page 1 suggests, there is in fact a clear progression in current shield stats. Present values were not assigned at random. The Google Doc above attempts to clean up the existing progression to make it more clear (labeled Step 1), and then it achieves the target inverse relationship between Recovery and HP potential (labeled Step 2). This model diverges most evidently from Aeon's in that a more logical framework is established without substantial buffs to shield performance of Armor Tankers. This isn't a comprehensive solution, rather (like Aeon's model) this is a framework upon which to build. The 8 second depleted on calmando needs to go away. I did notice that shield delays were abnormally high for the Commando class. If there isn't a good reason to keep them high, I'd absolutely support moving them closer in line with that of Assaults.
This underscores one thing that's useful to keep in mind with conceptual methods.
Cal > Min > Gal > Am
^Method
But the margins between each step of the method are another question entirely. We need rational, and usually will start out with a more regimented alignment closer to 1:1, but that doesn't mean it has to, or is planned for, staying that way.
Margins can make all the difference in the world.
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.19 15:47:00 -
[116] - Quote
Be sure to include written statements as to what defines the implementation of the design pattern.
For example:
- Caldari are the primary shield tankers and therefore should have a higher regen than other races.
- Scouts are hit-and-run focused with low EHP, so should have a higher regen than other roles.
Etc. Something that can be easily followed, recognized, and adhered to in future design. Numbers are fantastic for the nuance but the overall design principles are best written.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.19 15:58:00 -
[117] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Be sure to include written statements as to what defines the implementation of the design pattern.
For example:
- Caldari are the primary shield tankers and therefore should have a higher regen than other races.
- Scouts are hit-and-run focused with low EHP, so should have a higher regen than other roles.
Etc. Something that can be easily followed, recognized, and adhered to in future design. Numbers are fantastic for the nuance but the overall design principles are best written.
I've modified my last post, and the spreadsheet, to include these statements. |
Arirana
Ancient Exiles.
1
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Posted - 2015.09.19 16:06:00 -
[118] - Quote
For shield tanker suits depleted shield recharge delay should become the same as their recharge delay (excluding the Cal H, it should keep the 1 sec because flux grenade), and for armor tankers depleted recharge delay should remain the same as it is now. This way armor tankers can't fully utilize the strength of shield tanking (regen speed) just like shield tankers can't fully utilize the strength of armor tanking (large HP values).
Depleted recharge delay is what is REALLY punishing for shield tanking, and something that is needed to become exclusive to armor tank suits so that we don't see armor tankers regaining their shields just as they are about to go down, giving their armor time to regen as well (A HUGE advantage to be regenerating both shields and armor at high speeds at the same time).
The Official Ari QQ Thread
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
12
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Posted - 2015.09.19 16:20:00 -
[119] - Quote
*steps into thread*
There's a lot of instigating in here.
You can't effect one attribute of the game without affecting the other. Everything is related.
Even if say I changed a stat that primarily benefits x race it will still trickle down to the others but that's already been addressed.
CPM already knows my stance on the issue, fix shields no matter what, Aeon and breaking are doing a great job on that so I'mnot too bothered besides looking over the numbers they post. I'm the one sitting in the corner trying to figure out when this change happens how do we stop the impending dual tanking storm, because it will come.
As much as I believe this game needs more TTK, dual tanking as is (or will be) is not the way.
(This post was not constructive sorry Aeon)
Sgt Kirk's Propaganda Youtube Channel
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.19 16:41:00 -
[120] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:*steps into thread* There's a lot of instigating in here. You can't effect one attribute of the game without affecting the other. Everything is related. Even if say I changed a stat that primarily benefits x race it will still trickle down to the others but that's already been addressed. CPM already knows my stance on the issue, fix shields no matter what, Aeon and breaking are doing a great job on that so I'mnot too bothered besides looking over the numbers they post. I'm the one sitting in the corner trying to figure out when this change happens how do we stop the impending dual tanking storm, because it will come. As much as I believe this game needs more TTK, dual tanking as is (or will be) is not the way. (This post was not constructive sorry Aeon)
Much like in Eve Online, the only way to assuredly nyx dual-tanking is to make it simply not worth doing. And that does not mean making it so that dual-tanking is impossible or counter-intuitive through penalties, it simply means providing modules in both high and low slots are just better to run.
Look at Armor Tanking in Eve Online and it opens up your mid-slots for a plethora of EWAR opportunities, like tackle and mobility.
Look at Shield Tanking and it opens up for damage amplification, tracking enhancement, mobility, and cargo space.
Players can dual-tank in Eve but they choose not to because the options available provide for much more diverse and generally just better fittings than you'd get if you tried to brick down. We need to consider that for Dust 514, I feel. Carrot, not the stick.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
12
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Posted - 2015.09.19 16:57:00 -
[121] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:*steps into thread* There's a lot of instigating in here. You can't effect one attribute of the game without affecting the other. Everything is related. Even if say I changed a stat that primarily benefits x race it will still trickle down to the others but that's already been addressed. CPM already knows my stance on the issue, fix shields no matter what, Aeon and breaking are doing a great job on that so I'mnot too bothered besides looking over the numbers they post. I'm the one sitting in the corner trying to figure out when this change happens how do we stop the impending dual tanking storm, because it will come. As much as I believe this game needs more TTK, dual tanking as is (or will be) is not the way. (This post was not constructive sorry Aeon) Much like in Eve Online, the only way to assuredly nyx dual-tanking is to make it simply not worth doing. And that does not mean making it so that dual-tanking is impossible or counter-intuitive through penalties, it simply means providing modules in both high and low slots are just better to run. Look at Armor Tanking in Eve Online and it opens up your mid-slots for a plethora of EWAR opportunities, like tackle and mobility. Look at Shield Tanking and it opens up for damage amplification, tracking enhancement, mobility, and cargo space. Players can dual-tank in Eve but they choose not to because the options available provide for much more diverse and generally just better fittings than you'd get if you tried to brick down. We need to consider that for Dust 514, I feel. Carrot, not the stick.
Perfect thinking, and EVE is exactly what I look to when it comes to this. (god forbid I mention EVE!).
Sadly, I dont think we have enough resources right now for this platform to take the Carrot approach, which is prefered.
Breakins idea is about the closest thing we have to a non-strenuous carrot approach and I'm not even sure if that's going to be implemented :(.
Sgt Kirk's Propaganda Youtube Channel
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.19 17:18:00 -
[122] - Quote
Dual tanking can be reduced by making non-tank related mods more relatively effective compared to tanking mods, either by buffing other mods or nerfing tanking mods. This is effectively the carrot approach Aeon describes.
Other than non-tanking mods, regen mods are very important for reducing dual tanking. This is because they produce synergy between modules of the same tanking type, encouraging you to focus on one type. Shield regulators and shield delay are crucial as they are shield modules that compete with armour modules. They have to be more worthwhile than armour on a shield suit. This is why I caution against reducing base delays too much as it diminishes the effectiveness and value of regulators. If they delays are deemed too long, better to buff the regulators to give people the tools to reduce them if they give up on dual tanking. |
Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
12
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Posted - 2015.09.19 17:22:00 -
[123] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Dual tanking can be reduced by making non-tank related mods more relatively effective compared to tanking mods, either by buffing other mods or nerfing tanking mods. This is effectively the carrot approach Aeon describes.
Other than non-tanking mods, regen mods are very important for reducing dual tanking. This is because they produce synergy between modules of the same tanking type, encouraging you to focus on one type. Shield regulators and shield delay are crucial as they are shield modules that compete with armour modules. They have to be more worthwhile than armour on a shield suit. This is why I caution against reducing base delays too much as it diminishes the effectiveness and value of regulators. If they delays are deemed too long, better to buff the regulators to give people the tools to reduce them if they give up on dual tanking.
Buffing other mods = carrot
Nefing tank mods = stick
Sgt Kirk's Propaganda Youtube Channel
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.19 17:36:00 -
[124] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:
Much like in Eve Online, the only way to assuredly nyx dual-tanking is to make it simply not worth doing.
To quote Breakin, Dual Tankers should die in a fire. I couldn't agree more.
Kirk is right, and we should be thinking about ways to circumvent the problem before it gets a chance to take hold post-shield-buff. Arguably the best to accomplish this would be by ensuring that the fitting requirements of plates (all types) and shield extenders are too high to run both simultaneously without making substantial (potentially crippling) sacrifices elsewhere.
This would likely require increasing the fitting requirements of plates, which I'm aware Aeon and other Armor Tankers are opposed to on account of TTK. I believe impact on TTK would be slight, as it'd likely amount to mixing in an Advanced Ferro/Reactive or two instead of running a straight rack of Complex. Armor Tankers would only lose a handful of hitpoints; I believe there's plenty of room for that, and I don't believe that their doing so would result in any meta shift.
Shield tankers have to make sacrifices on account of extender's high resource requirements; I see no reason why we should not ask the same of armor tankers.
* Exceptions would need be made for Heavy Frames. This could be accomplished any number of ways. |
Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
531
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Posted - 2015.09.19 17:56:00 -
[125] - Quote
Logis should not have higher regeneration than assaults.. this whole discussion has become rediculous.. Caldari suits should be the only suits getting shield buffs.. minmitar should remain the same, gallente and Amar should be Nerfed. Cal scout is fine, Cal Sentinel should be able to stack more shield Ehp and have regeneration delay as short as depleted delay. Cal Assault should have similar delays, cal logo should be able to stack more shields and have a the worst of all Caldari regeneration stats. Shield penalties should not apply to Caldari. . If Caldari run out of shields they should be a bullet or two from death save for perhaps the sentinel. Leave minmitar suits alone. Reduce Amar and gallente regeneration rates to 2 hit points per second. Now shields are balanced and we can start balancing vehicle shields. INSTEAD OF SCREWING AROUND WITH EVERY STAT TO MAKE ARMOR SUITS EVEN BETTER AND MAKING MORE WORK FOR EVERYONE. |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.19 18:04:00 -
[126] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Dual tanking can be reduced by making non-tank related mods more relatively effective compared to tanking mods, either by buffing other mods or nerfing tanking mods. This is effectively the carrot approach Aeon describes.
Other than non-tanking mods, regen mods are very important for reducing dual tanking. This is because they produce synergy between modules of the same tanking type, encouraging you to focus on one type. Shield regulators and shield delay are crucial as they are shield modules that compete with armour modules. They have to be more worthwhile than armour on a shield suit. This is why I caution against reducing base delays too much as it diminishes the effectiveness and value of regulators. If they delays are deemed too long, better to buff the regulators to give people the tools to reduce them if they give up on dual tanking. Buffing other mods = carrot Nefing tank mods = stick
True.
I guess the carrot would be buffs to damage mods, biotics, EWAR mods and codebreakers. Though I suspect buffing damage mods and myofibs would be bad.
If we refrain from buffing assault and logi base shield regen and delays we should avoid a rise in dual tanking. Buffs to shields should come from the modules that encourage synergy in a dedicated tanking type. Modules such as energisers (% based so less effective on armour tanks) and regulators (which compete with armour and synergise with energisers) are what should be looked at. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.19 18:11:00 -
[127] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Dual tanking can be reduced by making non-tank related mods more relatively effective compared to tanking mods, either by buffing other mods or nerfing tanking mods. This is effectively the carrot approach Aeon describes.
Other than non-tanking mods, regen mods are very important for reducing dual tanking. This is because they produce synergy between modules of the same tanking type, encouraging you to focus on one type. Shield regulators and shield delay are crucial as they are shield modules that compete with armour modules. They have to be more worthwhile than armour on a shield suit. This is why I caution against reducing base delays too much as it diminishes the effectiveness and value of regulators. If they delays are deemed too long, better to buff the regulators to give people the tools to reduce them if they give up on dual tanking. Buffing other mods = carrot Nefing tank mods = stick True.
That's a lot of modules to buff. Think we'll ever get there? Does CPM even have a plan yet?
I can think of a more efficient path to balance with fewer moving parts, less room for error, lower odds of unintended consequence, and zero chance of widening the hitpoint gap which separates the protos from the newbros. |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.19 18:17:00 -
[128] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:That's a lot of modules to buff. Think we'll ever get there? Does CPM even have a plan yet? I can think of a more efficient path with fewer moving parts, less room for error, lower odds of unintended consequence, and zero chance of worsening the veteran/newbro gap.
I edited my post with more thoughts.
I never said I was against the stick. |
Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
12
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Posted - 2015.09.19 18:36:00 -
[129] - Quote
Yep. I'm all for buffing other modules but realistically, ps3 is too much of a hassle and not enough resources/man power to go towards the carrot approach.
It's either carrot breakin way which I strongly prefer, or my ghetto stick approach, which makes me hate the old DEVs even more.
Sgt Kirk's Propaganda Youtube Channel
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.09.19 18:39:00 -
[130] - Quote
The people worried about some armor suits getting a buff remind me of EFT warriors in Eve, who think that all it takes is higher numbers on a spreadsheet to win, rather than actual piloting skill. My God, it's not like Gal suits are getting 0 second delays and 100 hp/s regen. All it is is making a sliding scale that brings some organization to how shields are supposed to behave.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
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Posted - 2015.09.19 18:58:00 -
[131] - Quote
Starting with the conceptual macro here's what I'm seeing, please correct me if that is not representative of your intent.
Varoth Drac
- Race: Cal > Min > Gal/Am
- Role: Scout > Assault/Logistics/Commando/Sentinel
Adipem Nothi
- Race: Cal > Min > Gal/Am
- Role: Scout > Logi > Assault/Commando > Sentinel
Now, considering the discussion we've had of margins and how important they can be I am interested if either of you are completely
dedicated to the hard and fast X=Y or if marginal degrees would address your inclinations, something along the lines of W>>X>Y>Z
If so what degrees of separation, at a conceptual level, are desired/acceptable and why.
If not please elaborate on why in your view the aspects listed as equal must retain identical state profiles to maintain a conceptually sound method.
Numbers are wonderful for illustrative purposes, so please feel free to keep them coming, but also bear in mind that we're addressing the conceptual macro level right now not specific stat profiles
so please frame your input accordingly
@Thread, I'd love to renew my invitation for anyone to jump in and participate here, generally speaking the more constructive feedback the better. o7
Cheers,
Cross
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
531
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Posted - 2015.09.19 19:00:00 -
[132] - Quote
Ratatti spent months with all the spreadsheet guys in the forums balancing vehicles by the numbers. This led to 50% of the vehicles being useless along with 80% of the modules. There is more to this game than trying to say 4 apples = 4 oranges, writing that out on a spreadsheet and arguing that anyone that doesn't support you is counterproductive. We have a baseline tfor shield stats right now and it is garbage.. has always been garbage.. Balance what we have or we will see the same thing we see in the current iteration of vehicles. The player base will not survive. |
Starlight Burner
Black Screen
Adaptation.
520
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Posted - 2015.09.19 19:20:00 -
[133] - Quote
I can't do balance but just posting that I'm liking the exchanging of information and ideas for Shields suits.
Keep up the good work on suggestions of fixing shield suits! Helps us kill Galente scum better in FW!
CEO of Arrary of Clusters, a close relations corporation
Caldari Factional Warfare, enlist today!
Thank you for DUST
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.19 19:28:00 -
[134] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:
True.
I guess the carrot would be buffs to damage mods, biotics, EWAR mods and codebreakers. Though I suspect buffing damage mods and myofibs would be bad.
If we refrain from buffing assault and logi base shield regen and delays we should avoid a rise in dual tanking. Buffs to shields should come from the modules that encourage synergy in a dedicated tanking type. Modules such as energisers (% based so less effective on armour tanks) and regulators (which compete with armour and synergise with energisers) are what should be looked at.
Have a few Myo proposals being worked on. Just as an example: Increased dispersion/recoil when jumping, separating jump mods from melee mods, etc. Nothing quite ready to be thrown out yet though, still weighing the options.
Doc DDD wrote:We have a baseline tfor shield stats right now and it is garbage.. has always been garbage..
What baseline is that?
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Devadander
Woodgrain Atari
693
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Posted - 2015.09.19 19:37:00 -
[135] - Quote
If you give cal-logi too much shield love, it will rise again. And out will come Rattati with the wasp spray.
Edit: js we need to be very careful with changes to logi as they already scoot faster than the assault.
Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå
Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
531
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Posted - 2015.09.19 19:47:00 -
[136] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:
[quote=Doc DDD]We have a baseline tfor shield stats right now and it is garbage.. has always been garbage..
What baseline is that?
The only Shield suit we have had since day one Which has been the baseline for shields... the Caldari Assault. When the Caldari Logi was Nerfed (instead of being properly adjusted) years ago the shield penalties also applied to the Caldari Assault... this was the start of the downward spiral of shields.
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
531
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Posted - 2015.09.19 19:48:00 -
[137] - Quote
Cal Logi needs to be able to stack shields but does NOT need higher regeneration stats than assault |
DiablosMajora
297
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Posted - 2015.09.19 20:04:00 -
[138] - Quote
Can we have a thread like this for sprint, stamina, and stamina regen stats?
Edit: I know the current sprint curve we have, but I'm talking about specific functions of stamina for each race similar to their EVE counterparts:
Amarr suck at sprinting but being good marathon runners (Afterburners)
Gallente being good short distance sprinters to close the gap between them and targets (MWD)
Minmatar being the quickest all around (MWD)
Caldari being... i don't know what they are in EVE
Prepare your angus
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Luther Mandrix
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL
RUST415
643
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Posted - 2015.09.19 20:29:00 -
[139] - Quote
How about give basic suits some bonus that the assault and logi ,sential ,scout don't have.
A perk to use the fit.
Resist bonus for defense % 2 resist per level of Basic Dropsuit skill per level to Enemy faction sidearm,light,heavy weapon
Be nice to have a Amarr suit with a damage resist to nova knives.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.19 20:58:00 -
[140] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Ratatti spent months with all the spreadsheet guys in the forums balancing vehicles by the numbers. This led to 50% of the vehicles being useless along with 80% of the modules. There is more to this game than trying to say 4 apples = 4 oranges, writing that out on a spreadsheet and arguing that anyone that doesn't support you is counterproductive. We have a baseline tfor shield stats right now and it is garbage.. has always been garbage.. Balance what we have or we will see the same thing we see in the current iteration of vehicles. The player base will not survive.
Pilots with spreadsheets? Pilots are ... different from the rest of us. |
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
4
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Posted - 2015.09.19 21:32:00 -
[141] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Mina if you have specific, and I do mean specific, concerns please do itemize them for me with examples. I've spoken at length on the forums and occasionally in squads you know I'm inclined to discussion rather than dogma. If your critique of the method is that some of the particular numbers aren't where you'd like them to be then I would say two things. 1) The method is not about particular numbers, it's about having a functional context and is needed in that way. 2) Since the method is macro not micro, the particular numbers are much more negotiable and any specific cases of concern you have are certainly something that could be taken into account, please provide them. Show me for example the points of concern regarding the application of the method.
- Cal Assault vs Gal Assault pre and post change and why post change is a downgrade for the Cal
- Cal Sentinel vs Gal Sentinel (or Min vs Am if you'd rather) and why/how the situation post change is a down grade compared to present.
- Calmando vs Minmando and how the method weakens Cal post change vs Min, relative to current suit stats.
If your concern lies in the role to role balance rather than race to race, that's murkier due to there being shield and armor tankers within every role, but if roles are your concern would you outline Commando vs Scout to show me where the proposal weakens one vs the other in a detrimental and undue fashion, or Sentinel vs Assault with the same case. The key thing to remember in this case is that when comparing roles we must not mix and match, the comparison of roles needs to remain within the same race. If there's a racial concern then use method one from above. @Thread, this is an open invitation to any participants in this thread, please give me your input here. A reminder in this context however, we are working on a shield balance method so things like rifle balance (which likely could use some polish) are not part of this assessment. Further the assessment is not meant as a short term/stop gap tweak to stats in response to the current player meta (i.e. use trends) but rather a foundation context, as such anecdotal evidence regarding frequency of use of X vs Y isn't relevant here because that's a transient micro view and while useful and relevant for various things we're not at the stage where it is useful here (that would come later once a workable foundation is built). Cheers, Cross
Thanks for the invitation to rational discussion, I'll admit that it's much easier to find flaws with someone elses idea than it is to present an alternative idea oneself and Aeon has some right to be frustrated with people going "No, that doesn't seem quite right". Debate doesn't necessarily require me to provide alternatives (because jesus christ that can be a lot of work), merely to point out where mistakes lie with the current proposal.
Truth be told, I am not entirely certain on how to 'fix' shield tanking though I do think generalized buffs for all commandos shield stats are acceptable, and some tweaking of delays and recharge values for all min and cal suits are acceptable. I am incredibly suspicious of the large buff to shield tanking on traditionally armor tanked dropsuits, as has been repeated many times before "We won't solve shield tanking woes by nerfing armor [... because pendulum balance]" why are they getting a buff (that they probably in no way require) to their shield tanking stats?
Getting into a discussion of the modules themselves, while in theory HP should = HP shield dropsuits pay much more in terms of fitting costs for their individual points of hp (and take much more damage from anti-shield weaponry)... and the existence of modules that provide 'cheap hp' and functionally don't have drawbacks like reactives or ferroscales complicates matters a great deal. I know you guys don't want to discuss armor modules here, but I think that's somewhat wrong because in truth they ARE part of the issue. Lower health pools with higher proportional damage intake plus higher fitting cost per point of hp and it's easy to see why people find them weak.
When comparing shield tanking to armor tanking, often the biggest issue is that armor NEVER stops repping and with some of the buffs to armor repairers their reps can often be in the 20-30hp/s range, which is as good as or better than some shield recharge values if shield isn't interrupted: and as I've demonstrated with numbers in a previous thread discussing inhibition values almost everything stops shield recharge even well outside of its optimal.
In short what I'd like to see is the cost on shield modules go down, some increasing of HP values for shield modules, regulators increasing the inhibition values of shield suits by the same amount that they increase recharge (so taking a single bullet from 170m away doesn't ruin your ****ing day as a shield tanker) and possibly the introduction of equivalent 'ferroscale' and 'reactive' modules for shields. There might also need to be some tweaking of base armor recovery on suits like sentinels and commandos.
Further steps beyond that might IMO require some nerfing of ferroscale and reactive plate modules (cheap HP without any penalties is BAD), ferroscales in particular are almost equivalent to a shield extender of the same tier and are much cheaper to fit.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.19 22:05:00 -
[142] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Starting with the conceptual macro here's what I'm seeing, please correct me if that is not representative of your intent. Varoth Drac
- Race: Cal > Min > Gal/Am
- Role: Scout > Assault/Logistics/Commando/Sentinel
Adipem Nothi
- Race: Cal > Min > Gal/Am
- Role: Scout > Logi > Assault/Commando > Sentinel
Now, considering the discussion we've had of margins and how important they can be I am interested if either of you are completely dedicated to the hard and fast X=Y or if marginal degrees would address your inclinations, something along the lines of W>>X>Y>Z If so what degrees of separation, at a conceptual level, are desired/acceptable and why. If not please elaborate on why in your view the aspects listed as equal must retain identical state profiles to maintain a conceptually sound method. Numbers are wonderful for illustrative purposes, so please feel free to keep them coming, but also bear in mind that we're addressing the conceptual macro level right now not specific stat profiles so please frame your input accordingly @Thread, I'd love to renew my invitation for anyone to jump in and participate here, generally speaking the more constructive feedback the better. o7 Cheers, Cross
Looks like you've read my framework correctly. Glad you were able to make sense of it. 
I'm not sure that I have specific opinions on margins beyond those already expressed, namely high reserves + high recovery = trouble. I will say that I see a clear pattern in present shield stat values and the margins between those values, and I don't know that an overhaul is necessarily called for. Perhaps some small adjustments here and there would be fine, like those demonstrated in the above Google Doc as well as perhaps to Commando recovery. But I'd probably advise against a sweeping overhaul to base stats, especially if the basis of said overhaul were focusing only on one component of the hitpoint equation. I'll explain ...
It is OK to treat armor tankers of a given class like stepchildren when it comes to shield recovery/delay stats, even to the extent that members of a given class don't form a pretty line on a graph. The lack of a pretty line (i.e. normalization) in this case is acceptable and in-fact by design, as we're only analyzing one variable in a multi-variable hitpoint equation. If we wanted a pretty graph proximating normalization we'd need to "remove the filter" and incorporate Armor into our analysis. Other components, like availability of external recovery via triage and even damage profiles should also be accounted for. How one might put all that into one pretty chart, I haven't the slightest idea. But I imagine Rattati does.
Analyzing the Shield Component of the hitpoint equation on its own is different than analyzing the simple, inverse relationship between HP Potential and Speed. On the Speed/HP Curve, class members are neatly clustered. On the Shield Stat Performance curve, members of a given class will absolutely not be clustered, and that is completely OK. Shield tankers will occupy one space on the curve and armor tankers a space far removed. |
Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
417
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Posted - 2015.09.19 22:17:00 -
[143] - Quote
Mina Longstrike wrote:
Getting into a discussion of the modules themselves, while in theory HP should = HP shield dropsuits pay much more in terms of fitting costs for their individual points of hp (and take much more damage from anti-shield weaponry)... and the existence of modules that provide 'cheap hp' and functionally don't have drawbacks like reactives or ferroscales complicates matters a great deal. I know you guys don't want to discuss armor modules here, but I think that's somewhat wrong because in truth they ARE part of the issue. Lower health pools with higher proportional damage intake plus higher fitting cost per point of hp and it's easy to see why people find them weak.
So much this. I've been doing an examination of shield vs armor modules for a while, and came up with something I call "Fitting Power," to examine the total combined cost of fitting modules, and the benefit given for those modules. The data is in this spreadsheet. This should demonstrate some of the problems that shield is having module side compared to armor, and should demonstrate where stick style dual tanking fixes should fall.
Mina Longstrike wrote:
When comparing shield tanking to armor tanking, often the biggest issue is that armor NEVER stops repping and with some of the buffs to armor repairers their reps can often be in the 20-30hp/s range, which is as good as or better than some shield recharge values if shield isn't interrupted: and as I've demonstrated with numbers in a previous thread discussing inhibition values almost everything stops shield recharge even well outside of its optimal.
Which is a big problem I've had with the shield delay mechanics in dust since...well...I tried to go as a Caldari suit back in beta. In addition to being able to stack high repair rates that cannot be stopped, armor has a number of choices of support equipment, some of which does not require another player to assist them with provided their suit has equipment slots (looking at you nanohives).
Another problem we're facing in this discussion is that for shields to work properly, they need both excellent stats on suits and modules, whereas armor only really needs their modules to be effective.
Some Regen Numbers I spitballed back in the first thread
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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Devadander
Woodgrain Atari
695
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Posted - 2015.09.20 00:31:00 -
[144] - Quote
Just throwing this out there.... Complex plates cost 3900 while complex extenders cost 4200 and give less HP.
Just one of the many things that need to be on this journey.
Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå
Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
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CommanderBolt
Dead Man's Game
4
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Posted - 2015.09.20 09:57:00 -
[145] - Quote
Just wanted to say -
Props to Cross and Aeon. This might be getting a bit heated in here but you two are sticking with it and fighting back. Best CPM interaction ever I think.
Much rather have disagreements with people who will actually give a damn and post stuff rather than agree with a load of yes men who barely do anything for the community.
"Madness how we turned our common-ground into a battle-ground.." - Essa
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.20 11:03:00 -
[146] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:Just wanted to say - Props to Cross and Aeon. This might be getting a bit heated in here but you two are sticking with it and fighting back. Best CPM interaction ever I think. Much rather have disagreements with people who will actually give a damn and post stuff rather than agree with a load of yes men who barely do anything for the community.
Imagine what it's like when we're not on the forums
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.20 11:14:00 -
[147] - Quote
TL/DR
- All fitted racial suits should have similar recovery times.
- Heavier suits should fit more regen, lighter suits less regen.
- Therefore base regen rate progression should either be light > heavy > medium (like now), or light > heavy = medium (like my spreadsheet).
See below for current recovery times and associated fits.
Cross Atu wrote:Varoth DracIf so what degrees of separation, at a conceptual level, are desired/acceptable and why. If not please elaborate on why in your view the aspects listed as equal must retain identical state profiles to maintain a conceptually sound method. Numbers are wonderful for illustrative purposes, so please feel free to keep them coming, but also bear in mind that we're addressing the conceptual macro level right now not specific stat profiles so please frame your input accordingly Cheers, Cross
If I'm interpreting you question correctly, I think you are asking why I am proposing Heavy = medium < light.
This is a difficult question to answer properly, and I'm sorry for taking a long time to respond.
My thinking is this:
"In general, after fitting modules, all racial suits should regen their shields in approximately the same time period."
This is the key principle. I do not agree that heavier suits should regen shields more slowly. And I am referring to the time it takes to return to full shields, rather than regen rate. This means heavies should have a faster regen rate, as they have more hp to regen.
However what does need to be taken into account is the modules fitted on these suits. Hp mods, being set values, are more suited for lighter suits, whereas regen mods are more suited to heavier suits, who have the native hp already. It then follows that heavy shield suits will fit mainly regen mods, medium suits will fit a mix of hp and regen, and light suits will fit only hp (I'm just talking about tanking mods here, obviously they will fit other types of mods as well), in order to all achieve approximately equal shield regen times.
This is approximately the situation we have now. Consider these three fits:
Caldari Sentinel
Caldari Assault
Caldari Scout
The time to regen full shields on these fits, assuming starting a 1 shield hp, so using the non-depleted shield delay:
Sentinel = 10 seconds
Assault = 11 seconds (could easily be fit with another energiser for faster regen)
Scout = 10.6 seconds
All three suits regen in a very similar timeframe.
You may ask, why should scouts not have to fit regen mods? The answer to this is two-fold. Firstly, this is the way they are balanced. If you reduced the native scout regen, to maintain their ability to regen quickly they would have to swap hp for regen mods, thus reducing their overall effectiveness. You could swap the native regen for some more hp, assuming scout players would fit regen. This leads us to the second problem though. Players probably wouldn't do this. The static value nature of hp mods makes them more worthwhile on low hp suits. Scouts would probably sacrifice their quick regen, hit and run ability in order to stack more hp. This is a problem because you then lose some of the identity of the suit. The imposed sacrifice of hp for regen forces scouts more into their correct role of stealthy hit and run. Thus I don't recommend changing this.
On the other end of the scale, why should sentinels fit more regen mods than hp? Bear in mind I'm just talking about shield sentinels here, as the remote reps for armour make armour sentinels a different case. Anyway, much like how hp mods are very effective on light suits, they are less effective on heavies. For example, a complex shield extender provides a 20% shield boost to a Caldari assault, but only an 11% shield boost for a Caldari sentinel. Whereas regen mods are more worthwhile as you have more base hp to regen.
I guess this leads me to advocating the current shield regen progression of scout > sentinel > assault. Though I thought that heavy = medium < light was simpler and more in line with what others had suggested, hence my earlier proposal.
I don't think that sentinels should take longer to regen shields than other suits, assuming they are properly fitted out for shield regen. Reducing their regen slightly to that of an assault may hurt this. However, as I would argue the shield/armour balance should be addressed by looking at shield regen modules, any buff would help sentinels more (assuming they follow the paradigm of fitting more regen than lighter suits), and therefore would offset this potential slight nerf relative to lighter suits.
It's worth noting though, that currently assault and sentinel shield regen is quite similar, and my proposal for a neater heavy = medium regen model, only really results in a minor nerf to the Caldari sentinel. |
Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
534
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 12:59:00 -
[148] - Quote
Nerfing a Caldari shield stat in anyway?
Am I reading this right?
Buff the other Caldari shield stats to match the Cal Sentinel, we are trying to fix shields, I am hoping, in this thread.
Caldari suits should not suffer the stacking penalties incurred when stackig shields, and shield module efficacy should be added.
If a caldari scout wants to have more ehp at the cost of shield regen how is this a problem? it has 2 low slots? Are we going to see a bunch of slow caldari scouts running around with 300 armor and slowly regening shields? The caldari Assault should be on the same native level as the scout and sentinel, the logi should be able to stack plates and still carry equipment but have a slow regen, and the commando should feel like it is part of the caldari race instead of amar with how terrible the shields function.
Of equal skill - One logi with a rep tool in a room full of amar sentinals stacking HP is going to win every time versus a room full of caldari sentinels.. especially if even one has basic flux grenades. |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.20 13:32:00 -
[149] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Nerfing a Caldari shield stat in anyway?
Am I reading this right?
Buff the other Caldari shield stats to match the Cal Sentinel, we are trying to fix shields, I am hoping, in this thread.
Caldari suits should not suffer the stacking penalties incurred when stackig shields, and shield module efficacy should be added.
If a caldari scout wants to have more ehp at the cost of shield regen how is this a problem? it has 2 low slots? Are we going to see a bunch of slow caldari scouts running around with 300 armor and slowly regening shields? The caldari Assault should be on the same native level as the scout and sentinel, the logi should be able to stack plates and still carry equipment but have a slow regen, and the commando should feel like it is part of the caldari race instead of amar with how terrible the shields function.
Of equal skill - One logi with a rep tool in a room full of amar sentinals stacking HP is going to win every time versus a room full of caldari sentinels.. especially if even one has basic flux grenades.
We are not trying to fix shields in this thread.
We are trying to establish a set of shield regen design principles which will make later balancing easier.
I made two proposals. One buffed Caldari sentinel regen a little, one results in nerfing the delay by 1 second. Both result in buffing commando regen. Neither proposal aims to bring balance to shield tanking.
For balancing I propose buffing energisers and rechargers. |
Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
534
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 14:16:00 -
[150] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Nerfing a Caldari shield stat in anyway?
Am I reading this right?
Buff the other Caldari shield stats to match the Cal Sentinel, we are trying to fix shields, I am hoping, in this thread.
Caldari suits should not suffer the stacking penalties incurred when stackig shields, and shield module efficacy should be added.
If a caldari scout wants to have more ehp at the cost of shield regen how is this a problem? it has 2 low slots? Are we going to see a bunch of slow caldari scouts running around with 300 armor and slowly regening shields? The caldari Assault should be on the same native level as the scout and sentinel, the logi should be able to stack plates and still carry equipment but have a slow regen, and the commando should feel like it is part of the caldari race instead of amar with how terrible the shields function.
Of equal skill - One logi with a rep tool in a room full of amar sentinals stacking HP is going to win every time versus a room full of caldari sentinels.. especially if even one has basic flux grenades. We are not trying to fix shields in this thread. We are trying to establish a set of shield regen design principles which will make later balancing easier. I made two proposals. One buffed Caldari sentinel regen a little, one results in nerfing the delay by 1 second. Both result in buffing commando regen. Neither proposal aims to bring balance to shield tanking. For balancing I propose buffing energisers and rechargers.
I hope this game is around long enough to get from 'not trying to fix or balance shields in this thread' to 'now that we spent 3 months concluding that Caldari shields should be at least twice as effective in everyway to every other suit, lets spend 3 months discussing how to implement'...... Why not just make Caldari race of suits the baseline for all shield suits, for which all other suits are significantly worse. Anyone that plays the game knows what the problem is with shields, this is going the same way the vehicle threads went when trying to set up a baseline for two vehicles. Ratatti et al actually agreed to NERF SHIELD REGEN on shield vehicles as they thought the stat was OP.. Now no one sensible uses shield vehicles outside of the redline.
I'm all for supporting a thread to start a dialogue for establishing shield regen principles... but if we are at 8 pages and have so far concluded that Caldari>Min>Gal/Amar.... why not just set up shields as - Caldari stats (x=1) Min stats (x=0.5) Gal/Amar stats (x=.25). Remove all stacking penalties from Caldari stats. Add 2% efficacy per level to all shield modules to all caldari suits. Give all Caldari shield suits the same native regen stats as the Sentinel AND MOVE ON. Real easy to balance shields now that every shield in the game is based off of one suit. Make minmitar shield regen stats 4xs worse and gal/amar 10xs worse. If we try and set up all these stats the same way they set up all the vehicle stats we will fail.. we are not in a vacuum, there are too many moving parts to pretend we are...
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.20 14:37:00 -
[151] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:
I hope this game is around long enough to get from 'not trying to fix or balance shields in this thread' to 'now that we spent 3 months concluding that Caldari shields should be at least twice as effective in everyway to every other suit, lets spend 3 months discussing how to implement'...... Why not just make Caldari race of suits the baseline for all shield suits, for which all other suits are significantly worse. Anyone that plays the game knows what the problem is with shields, this is going the same way the vehicle threads went when trying to set up a baseline for two vehicles. Ratatti et al actually agreed to NERF SHIELD REGEN on shield vehicles as they thought the stat was OP.. Now no one sensible uses shield vehicles outside of the redline.
I'm all for supporting a thread to start a dialogue for establishing shield regen principles... but if we are at 8 pages and have so far concluded that Caldari>Min>Gal/Amar.... why not just set up shields as - Caldari stats (x=1) Min stats (x=0.5) Gal/Amar stats (x=.25). Remove all stacking penalties from Caldari stats. Add 2% efficacy per level to all shield modules to all caldari suits. Give all Caldari shield suits the same native regen stats as the Sentinel AND MOVE ON. Real easy to balance shields now that every shield in the game is based off of one suit. Make minmitar shield regen stats 4xs worse and gal/amar 10xs worse. If we try and set up all these stats the same way they set up all the vehicle stats we will fail.. we are not in a vacuum, there are too many moving parts to pretend we are...
Well I'm not on the CPM, I can't accelerate the process, I'm just working with the intent of the thread, rather than against it. Something I feel will probably result i faster progress.
As for base suit stats, Caldari shield stats are already about 50% better than Gallente and Amarr. That's already a big difference.
I strongly feel balance should be brought about by looking at the modules you can fit rather than the base stats. The ability to fit your suit how you like is probably the one thing this game does particularly well.
So for example, shield energisers could be buffed to give you +100% shield regen at complex level. This would automatically benefit Caldari more, as they have more base regen. But it would also help Minmatar suits that choose to shield tank. It isn't just Caldari that are (supposedly) underpowered, it's shield tanking in general. You wouldn't choose to fit an energiser on a Gallente or Amarr suit, as you have too long a delay, and too poor a base regen rate, so such a buff wouldn't really help armour tankers.
But anyway, the exact numbers required to bring balance isn't the point of the thread.
It sounds like you are in agreement with shield regen being Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente/Amarr, that's good.
What about Scout > Sentinel >(or =) Assault = Logi = Commando ? At least as far as base stats go.
With modules recovery time should be Scout = Assault = Logi = Commando = Sentinel, but with scouts fitting no regen mods, and sentinels fitting more than the others. |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.20 15:00:00 -
[152] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:
I'm all for supporting a thread to start a dialogue for establishing shield regen principles... but if we are at 8 pages and have so far concluded that Caldari>Min>Gal/Amar.... why not just set up shields as - Caldari stats (x=1) Min stats (x=0.5) Gal/Amar stats (x=.25). Remove all stacking penalties from Caldari stats. Add 2% efficacy per level to all shield modules to all caldari suits. Give all Caldari shield suits the same native regen stats as the Sentinel AND MOVE ON. Real easy to balance shields now that every shield in the game is based off of one suit. Make minmitar shield regen stats 4xs worse and gal/amar 10xs worse. If we try and set up all these stats the same way they set up all the vehicle stats we will fail.. we are not in a vacuum, there are too many moving parts to pretend we are...
I guess you could buff Caldari shield regen to 40hp/s for all suits, except for scouts that could stay at 50hp/s. Would that be more in line with your thinking?
This would mean a Caldari assault would have 2 x the base shield regen of Gallente or Amarr. I think more of a discrepancy than that would be too much. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.20 15:05:00 -
[153] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Doc DDD wrote:
I'm all for supporting a thread to start a dialogue for establishing shield regen principles... but if we are at 8 pages and have so far concluded that Caldari>Min>Gal/Amar.... why not just set up shields as - Caldari stats (x=1) Min stats (x=0.5) Gal/Amar stats (x=.25). Remove all stacking penalties from Caldari stats. Add 2% efficacy per level to all shield modules to all caldari suits. Give all Caldari shield suits the same native regen stats as the Sentinel AND MOVE ON. Real easy to balance shields now that every shield in the game is based off of one suit. Make minmitar shield regen stats 4xs worse and gal/amar 10xs worse. If we try and set up all these stats the same way they set up all the vehicle stats we will fail.. we are not in a vacuum, there are too many moving parts to pretend we are...
I guess you could buff Caldari shield regen to 40hp/s for all suits, except for scouts that could stay at 50hp/s. Would that be more in line with your thinking? This would mean a Caldari assault would have 2 x the base shield regen of Gallente or Amarr. I think more of a discrepancy than that would be too much.
Does anyone recall what the specific recovery/delay stats were of the early Uprising CalLogi? My thinking is that high hitpoint reserves combined with quick recovery could lead to trouble. |
Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.20 15:13:00 -
[154] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:I appreciate the fact that you acknowledge that there is an imbalance between shields and armour but I strongly suggest that these proposals are not the answer.
I really dont see how buffing Gallente Scout and Assault shield stats so much helps anyone.
EDIT - I see that the answer to my above statement is - it is more about having a baseline to work from rather than buffs to armour suits but I still cant help but feel this is iffy...
Why dont we for the love of all things just look at the stats from the current shield modules and adjust those? Regulator buffs, extender buffs (How about removing the shield delay penalty from extenders).
Also its all great trying to balance base stats but how on earth can we ever have balance when Armour has triage hives and repair tools and Shields have none of those? Please explain to me how balance can ever be achieved.
Go and speak to people in EVE and ask them if it would be fair to remove shield logistics modules and ships.....
Buffing the Gal Assault a bit isnt going to make it better than the Amarr and Min assault anyway, so its irrelevant, and buffing the Gal Scout shield recharge isnt goint to make that suit much better either (its not good because of its recharge delays, its good because of its suit bonuses and slot layout). |
Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
534
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 15:17:00 -
[155] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Doc DDD wrote:
I'm all for supporting a thread to start a dialogue for establishing shield regen principles... but if we are at 8 pages and have so far concluded that Caldari>Min>Gal/Amar.... why not just set up shields as - Caldari stats (x=1) Min stats (x=0.5) Gal/Amar stats (x=.25). Remove all stacking penalties from Caldari stats. Add 2% efficacy per level to all shield modules to all caldari suits. Give all Caldari shield suits the same native regen stats as the Sentinel AND MOVE ON. Real easy to balance shields now that every shield in the game is based off of one suit. Make minmitar shield regen stats 4xs worse and gal/amar 10xs worse. If we try and set up all these stats the same way they set up all the vehicle stats we will fail.. we are not in a vacuum, there are too many moving parts to pretend we are...
I guess you could buff Caldari shield regen to 40hp/s for all suits, except for scouts that could stay at 50hp/s. Would that be more in line with your thinking? This would mean a Caldari assault would have 2 x the base shield regen of Gallente or Amarr. I think more of a discrepancy than that would be too much. Does anyone recall what the specific recovery/delay stats were of the early Uprising CalLogi? My thinking is that high hitpoint reserves combined with quick recovery could lead to trouble.
There was no scrambler rifle and nades were doing over double damage to armor based suits, the suit also had enough cpu pg to fit all extenders in highs and plates in lows.. i recall each extender giving 88 ehp fully specced.. pretty sure total EHP possible is much lower than what is possible today on amar assault... that's all i remember.. regen was crap... i think it was around 20 hps with around 6 second delay, it was all about the ehp buffer and spamming core nades. |
Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.20 15:17:00 -
[156] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Ratatti et al actually agreed to NERF SHIELD REGEN on shield vehicles as they thought the stat was OP.. Now no one sensible uses shield vehicles outside of the redline.
Its worth noting that the regen nerf is probably not the reason shield tanks arent used anymore, more likely the problem for shield tanks is that armor tanks are way, way better. |
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
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Posted - 2015.09.20 15:18:00 -
[157] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:But anyway, the exact numbers required to bring balance isn't the point of the thread.
It sounds like you are in agreement with shield regen being Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente/Amarr, that's good.
What about Scout > Sentinel >(or =) Assault = Logi = Commando ? At least as far as base stats go.
With modules recovery time should be Scout = Assault = Logi = Commando = Sentinel, but with scouts fitting no regen mods, and sentinels fitting more than the others.
I see even more clearly now where you're coming from. Just so we're on the same page the base method in the OP and the things presented by the CPM assumes the case of frames prior to the addition of mods, as such I think our outcome cases once mods are included would likely be closer in nature than may have been previously assumed.
Great continued discussion o7
Cross
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
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Posted - 2015.09.20 15:19:00 -
[158] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Ratatti et al actually agreed to NERF SHIELD REGEN on shield vehicles as they thought the stat was OP.. Now no one sensible uses shield vehicles outside of the redline.
Its worth noting that the regen nerf is probably not the reason shield tanks arent used anymore, more likely the problem for shield tanks is that armor tanks are way, way better.
Double (passive) repped double hardened Maddys are just too potent at present, they're going to need a touch up (I advocate the shift to active reps personally, but that's an entire discussion of it's own)
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
534
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Posted - 2015.09.20 15:24:00 -
[159] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Ratatti et al actually agreed to NERF SHIELD REGEN on shield vehicles as they thought the stat was OP.. Now no one sensible uses shield vehicles outside of the redline.
Its worth noting that the regen nerf is probably not the reason shield tanks arent used anymore, more likely the problem for shield tanks is that armor tanks are way, way better.
You are right it is not the reason, however, it was a change that was unnecessary and just pushed shield tanks further into the redline. The time spent debating the necessity of nerfing shield regen and actually altering it would have far better been spent either playing the game and realizing how rediculous the nerf would be or by fixing shield boosters or having second thoughts about MAKING ARMOR HARDNERS BETTER THAN SHIELD HARDENERS IN EVERY WAY.
The same thing comes to mind when I see posts regarding slight buffs to gallente shield regen.. I KNOW IT IS A SLIGHT BUFF BUT IT IS NOT NECESSARY FROM ANY PERSPECTIVE SHORT OF MAKING GALLENTE ASSAULT SUITS BETTER.
Caps for emphasis not voice amplitude. |
Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.20 15:29:00 -
[160] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote: The time spent debating the necessity of nerfing shield regen and actually altering it would have far better been spent either playing the game and realizing how rediculous the nerf would be
Of course at the time shield tanks were the ones that were overpowered so the nerf seemed entirely appropriate, indeed if armor tanks didnt have this absurd rep/hardener synergy they might actually be much closer to balanced.
Doc DDD wrote: or by fixing shield boosters or having second thoughts about MAKING ARMOR HARDNERS BETTER THAN SHIELD HARDENERS IN EVERY WAY.
Hindsight is easymode.
Doc DDD wrote:The same thing comes to mind when I see posts regarding slight buffs to gallente shield regen.. I KNOW IT IS A SLIGHT BUFF BUT IT IS NOT NECESSARY FROM ANY PERSPECTIVE SHORT OF MAKING GALLENTE ASSAULT SUITS BETTER.
Its my opinion the Gal Assault needs some help anyway if you compare it to any assault aside from the Caldari, but I totally understand where you're coming from here. |
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
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Posted - 2015.09.20 15:30:00 -
[161] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:TL/DR - All fitted racial suits should have similar recovery times. - Heavier suits should fit more regen, lighter suits less regen. - Therefore base regen rate progression should either be light > heavy > medium (like now), or light > heavy = medium (like my spreadsheet). See below for current recovery times and associated fits. Cross Atu wrote:Varoth DracIf so what degrees of separation, at a conceptual level, are desired/acceptable and why. If not please elaborate on why in your view the aspects listed as equal must retain identical state profiles to maintain a conceptually sound method. Numbers are wonderful for illustrative purposes, so please feel free to keep them coming, but also bear in mind that we're addressing the conceptual macro level right now not specific stat profiles so please frame your input accordingly Cheers, Cross If I'm interpreting you question correctly, I think you are asking why I am proposing Heavy = medium < light. This is a difficult question to answer properly, and I'm sorry for taking a long time to respond. My thinking is this: "In general, after fitting modules, all racial suits should regen their shields in approximately the same time period." This is the key principle. I do not agree that heavier suits should regen shields more slowly. And I am referring to the time it takes to return to full shields, rather than regen rate. This means heavies should have a faster regen rate, as they have more hp to regen. However what does need to be taken into account is the modules fitted on these suits. Hp mods, being set values, are more suited for lighter suits, whereas regen mods are more suited to heavier suits, who have the native hp already. It then follows that heavy shield suits will fit mainly regen mods, medium suits will fit a mix of hp and regen, and light suits will fit only hp (I'm just talking about tanking mods here, obviously they will fit other types of mods as well), in order to all achieve approximately equal shield regen times. This is approximately the situation we have now. Consider these three fits: Caldari SentinelCaldari AssaultCaldari ScoutThe time to regen full shields on these fits, assuming starting a 1 shield hp, so using the non-depleted shield delay: Sentinel = 10 seconds Assault = 11 seconds (could easily be fit with another energiser for faster regen) Scout = 10.6 seconds All three suits regen in a very similar timeframe. You may ask, why should scouts not have to fit regen mods? The answer to this is two-fold. Firstly, this is the way they are balanced. If you reduced the native scout regen, to maintain their ability to regen quickly they would have to swap hp for regen mods, thus reducing their overall effectiveness. You could swap the native regen for some more hp, assuming scout players would fit regen. This leads us to the second problem though. Players probably wouldn't do this. The static value nature of hp mods makes them more worthwhile on low hp suits. Scouts would probably sacrifice their quick regen, hit and run ability in order to stack more hp. This is a problem because you then lose some of the identity of the suit. The imposed sacrifice of hp for regen forces scouts more into their correct role of stealthy hit and run. Thus I don't recommend changing this. On the other end of the scale, why should sentinels fit more regen mods than hp? Bear in mind I'm just talking about shield sentinels here, as the remote reps for armour make armour sentinels a different case. Anyway, much like how hp mods are very effective on light suits, they are less effective on heavies. For example, a complex shield extender provides a 20% shield boost to a Caldari assault, but only an 11% shield boost for a Caldari sentinel. Whereas regen mods are more worthwhile as you have more base hp to regen. I guess this leads me to advocating the current shield regen progression of scout > sentinel > assault. Though I thought that heavy = medium < light was simpler and more in line with what others had suggested, hence my earlier proposal. I don't think that sentinels should take longer to regen shields than other suits, assuming they are properly fitted out for shield regen. Reducing their regen slightly to that of an assault may hurt this. However, as I would argue the shield/armour balance should be addressed by looking at shield regen modules, any buff would help sentinels more (assuming they follow the paradigm of fitting more regen than lighter suits), and therefore would offset this potential slight nerf relative to lighter suits. It's worth noting though, that currently assault and sentinel shield regen is quite similar, and my proposal for a neater heavy = medium regen model, only really results in a minor nerf to the Caldari sentinel.
A lot of this looks more like our (CPM) 'step 2'
#1 is the base suit stats having a method that provides a solid foundation
#2 is tuning the mods (and hopefully adding a few options as well) to give shields more love and diversity
#3 is looking at possible comparative issues with weapons, such a profile bias, this is more of a side step.
#4 is looking at the raw stats of the armor mods.
The iterative balance process takes this one step at a time and allows for more finite adjustments as well as leaving entire steps alone if balance is reached before they are enacted.
That's just a roughed out framework of course, but i...
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
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Posted - 2015.09.20 15:31:00 -
[162] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:CommanderBolt wrote:Just wanted to say - Props to Cross and Aeon. This might be getting a bit heated in here but you two are sticking with it and fighting back. Best CPM interaction ever I think. Much rather have disagreements with people who will actually give a damn and post stuff rather than agree with a load of yes men who barely do anything for the community. Imagine what it's like when we're not on the forums
lol, it did get a bit rowdy at times last night didn't it?
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
534
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 15:32:00 -
[163] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Well I'm not on the CPM, I can't accelerate the process, I'm just working with the intent of the thread, rather than against it. Something I feel will probably result i faster progress. As for base suit stats, Caldari shield stats are already about 50% better than Gallente and Amarr. That's already a big difference. I strongly feel balance should be brought about by looking at the modules you can fit rather than the base stats. The ability to fit your suit how you like is probably the one thing this game does particularly well. So for example, shield energisers could be buffed to give you +100% shield regen at complex level. This would automatically benefit Caldari more, as they have more base regen. But it would also help Minmatar suits that choose to shield tank. It isn't just Caldari that are (supposedly) underpowered, it's shield tanking in general. You wouldn't choose to fit an energiser on a Gallente or Amarr suit, as you have too long a delay, and too poor a base regen rate, so such a buff wouldn't really help armour tankers. But anyway, the exact numbers required to bring balance isn't the point of the thread. It sounds like you are in agreement with shield regen being Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente/Amarr, that's good. What about Scout > Sentinel >(or =) Assault = Logi = Commando ? At least as far as base stats go. With modules recovery time should be Scout = Assault = Logi = Commando = Sentinel, but with scouts fitting no regen mods, and sentinels fitting more than the others.
Yes 50% is a big number, but it makes no difference when the two suits are fighting eachother, I can't even put a number on how much better gallente and amarr armor stats are than caldari... what is a guess 350%? It could be 3000% for all it maters, when a Caldari has no shields left they are usually dead...
I like the buff to energizers, should be easier to fit on suits ie cost less cpu/pg ( 90 cpu really?)
I still think Scout=Sentinel=Assualt=Logi=Commando would be fine for shield regen stats across the Caldari board.. if it's a big deal have scouts +10% assault=sentinel=commando with logi at -10%... but at that point why not just have them all the same.
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.20 15:37:00 -
[164] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:
A lot of this looks more like our (CPM) 'step 2'
#1 is the base suit stats having a method that provides a solid foundation
#2 is tuning the mods (and hopefully adding a few options as well) to give shields more love and diversity
#3 is looking at possible comparative issues with weapons, such a profile bias, this is more of a side step.
#4 is looking at the raw stats of the armor mods.
The iterative balance process takes this one step at a time and allows for more finite adjustments as well as leaving entire steps alone if balance is reached before they are enacted.
That's just a roughed out framework of course, but it should illustrate the concept and context.
One step at a time is key.
Cheers,
Cross
Oh no, our secret step-by-step balancing approach! Now who will take us seriously D:
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
534
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Posted - 2015.09.20 15:38:00 -
[165] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Doc DDD wrote: The time spent debating the necessity of nerfing shield regen and actually altering it would have far better been spent either playing the game and realizing how rediculous the nerf would be Of course at the time shield tanks were the ones that were overpowered so the nerf seemed entirely appropriate, indeed if armor tanks didnt have this absurd rep/hardener synergy they might actually be much closer to balanced. [quote=Doc DDD] or by fixing shield boosters or having second thoughts about MAKING ARMOR HARDNERS BETTER THAN SHIELD HARDENERS IN EVERY WAY.
Hindsight is easymode.
It's not a matter of Hindsight, some were very outspoken regarding the armor hardener buff and shield regen nerf, and the true reason shields were superior was that you could STACK ARMOR PLATES AND DAMAGE MODS. But this is for another thread at another time.
Buffing Gallente shields just makes the buffer better on a suit that can stack armor plates and damage mods.
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.20 15:41:00 -
[166] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Doc DDD wrote: The time spent debating the necessity of nerfing shield regen and actually altering it would have far better been spent either playing the game and realizing how rediculous the nerf would be Of course at the time shield tanks were the ones that were overpowered so the nerf seemed entirely appropriate, indeed if armor tanks didnt have this absurd rep/hardener synergy they might actually be much closer to balanced. [quote=Doc DDD] or by fixing shield boosters or having second thoughts about MAKING ARMOR HARDNERS BETTER THAN SHIELD HARDENERS IN EVERY WAY. Hindsight is easymode. It's not a matter of Hindsight, some were very outspoken regarding the armor hardener buff and shield regen nerf, and the true reason shields were superior was that you could STACK ARMOR PLATES AND DAMAGE MODS. But this is for another thread at another time. Buffing Gallente shields just makes the buffer better on a suit that can stack armor plates and damage mods.
I question how OP having high regen on 200 shields is when the regen doesn't occur while taking damage. Wouldn't matter how much regen they have, their primary tank is still going to be armor and if they managed to get away/killed you before you broke their shields having a high regen wouldn't matter anyway because you've got bigger problems
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
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Posted - 2015.09.20 15:47:00 -
[167] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Mina Longstrike wrote:
Getting into a discussion of the modules themselves, while in theory HP should = HP shield dropsuits pay much more in terms of fitting costs for their individual points of hp (and take much more damage from anti-shield weaponry)... and the existence of modules that provide 'cheap hp' and functionally don't have drawbacks like reactives or ferroscales complicates matters a great deal. I know you guys don't want to discuss armor modules here, but I think that's somewhat wrong because in truth they ARE part of the issue. Lower health pools with higher proportional damage intake plus higher fitting cost per point of hp and it's easy to see why people find them weak.
So much this. I've been doing an examination of shield vs armor modules for a while, and came up with something I call "Fitting Power," to examine the total combined cost of fitting modules, and the benefit given for those modules. The data is in this spreadsheet. This should demonstrate some of the problems that shield is having module side compared to armor, and should demonstrate where stick style dual tanking fixes should fall. Mina Longstrike wrote:
When comparing shield tanking to armor tanking, often the biggest issue is that armor NEVER stops repping and with some of the buffs to armor repairers their reps can often be in the 20-30hp/s range, which is as good as or better than some shield recharge values if shield isn't interrupted: and as I've demonstrated with numbers in a previous thread discussing inhibition values almost everything stops shield recharge even well outside of its optimal.
Which is a big problem I've had with the shield delay mechanics in dust since...well...I tried to go as a Caldari suit back in beta. In addition to being able to stack high repair rates that cannot be stopped, armor has a number of choices of support equipment, some of which does not require another player to assist them with provided their suit has equipment slots (looking at you nanohives). Another problem we're facing in this discussion is that for shields to work properly, they need both excellent stats on suits and modules, whereas armor only really needs their modules to be effective. Some Regen Numbers I spitballed back in the first thread
Both of you guys are on to something here, but allow me to interject.
We're not looking to make HP=HP so much as eHP = eHP such that shields and armor still provide some unique value and flavor. The % value of many shield mods aids in this, but also requires a more solid and predicable baseline to work from so that mods can be made properly potent for shield users while not becoming utterly OP and still retain the fidelity of Dusts' user choices so if someone want's to make a sub-optimal once off shield amarr fit they can do it and get some value from their mod slots, just nothing that would compete with the Cal.
I talk a lot about margins in this thread and I highly advocate that no two races or roles be pinned as identical because that removes possible knobs for tuning balance. However not all margins have to be, or should be, on a 1:1 basis.
To grab some simplified fictional numbers you could have Cal > Min > Gal > Amarr that equals
4 > 3 > 2 > 1 or you could have 7 > 4 > 2 > 1. Both of the listed numbers are still within the conceptual framework as presented, the key element of difference then is that the framework allows some fine tuning down the line, where as if the method is build around X = Y at all times, then there is simply less room for fine tuning and balance work in the long term becomes a more tricky prospect.
At present buffing a % mod has results that are somewhat quixotic, with a solid method in play we'd know that a % buff to the effect of an energizer (as a random example) would net a 10% gain in all use cases but would keep races and roles within their respective relative positions regarding shield potency. Thus we could begin to tune shield balance without having to look at a question of race balance and role balance for each and every change.
The foundational method makes the situation easier to assess and address.
~ Cross
ps - I continue to be a staunch advocate of a shield transporter in game, I think it would be a positive aspect for game diversity and I address the situation in that light, I mention this because it is not only a stance but a bias and I feel it important to note those clearly whenever possible. We all have them, it's just a matter of owning them so we can have useful rational discourse.
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.20 15:54:00 -
[168] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:A lot of this looks more like our (CPM) 'step 2' #1 is the base suit stats having a method that provides a solid foundation #2 is tuning the mods (and hopefully adding a few options as well) to give shields more love and diversity #3 is looking at possible comparative issues with weapons, such a profile bias, this is more of a side step. #4 is looking at the raw stats of the armor mods. The iterative balance process takes this one step at a time and allows for more finite adjustments as well as leaving entire steps alone if balance is reached before they are enacted. That's just a roughed out framework of course, but it should illustrate the concept and context. One step at a time is key.Cheers, Cross
I'm pretty sure the first 47 lines of my post relates to step 1. Only the last 5 or so relate to step 2.
I was attempting to explain the reasons for my thoughts about a method for a solid foundation of base stats. |
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 16:00:00 -
[169] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Cross Atu wrote:
A lot of this looks more like our (CPM) 'step 2'
#1 is the base suit stats having a method that provides a solid foundation
#2 is tuning the mods (and hopefully adding a few options as well) to give shields more love and diversity
#3 is looking at possible comparative issues with weapons, such a profile bias, this is more of a side step.
#4 is looking at the raw stats of the armor mods.
The iterative balance process takes this one step at a time and allows for more finite adjustments as well as leaving entire steps alone if balance is reached before they are enacted.
That's just a roughed out framework of course, but it should illustrate the concept and context.
One step at a time is key.
Cheers,
Cross
Oh no, our secret step-by-step balancing approach! Now who will take us seriously D:
I know! I need to level up 'NDA and secret keeping' again, it seems as a 2nd term'er on the CPM I'm getting forgetful in my old age
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.20 16:06:00 -
[170] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:
I still think Scout=Sentinel=Assualt=Logi=Commando would be fine for shield regen stats across the Caldari board.. if it's a big deal have scouts +10% assault=sentinel=commando with logi at -10%... but at that point why not just have them all the same.
As I have been trying to explain, reducing the shield regen advantage a scout has over other suits would be difficult to balance. |
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.20 16:18:00 -
[171] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:
A lot of this looks more like our (CPM) 'step 2'
#1 is the base suit stats having a method that provides a solid foundation
#2 is tuning the mods (and hopefully adding a few options as well) to give shields more love and diversity
#3 is looking at possible comparative issues with weapons, such a profile bias, this is more of a side step.
#4 is looking at the raw stats of the armor mods.
The iterative balance process takes this one step at a time and allows for more finite adjustments as well as leaving entire steps alone if balance is reached before they are enacted.
That's just a roughed out framework of course, but it should illustrate the concept and context.
One step at a time is key.
Cheers,
Cross
Just to check, did I successfully explain why I'm in favour of scout > sentinel > commando = assault = logi?
I hope I've explained why I feel this is preferable to the OP's suggestion of scout > logi > assault > commando > sentinel.
I've also explained a method of working out the relative levels of base shield regen that should be applied to each role, i.e. fitted suits should experience similar recovery times.
To be honest I haven't figured out exactly where logis should lie. However it shouldn't be difficult based on the stated principles. I suspect they should be around the same as assaults and commandos. |
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 16:27:00 -
[172] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Cross Atu wrote:
A lot of this looks more like our (CPM) 'step 2'
#1 is the base suit stats having a method that provides a solid foundation
#2 is tuning the mods (and hopefully adding a few options as well) to give shields more love and diversity
#3 is looking at possible comparative issues with weapons, such a profile bias, this is more of a side step.
#4 is looking at the raw stats of the armor mods.
The iterative balance process takes this one step at a time and allows for more finite adjustments as well as leaving entire steps alone if balance is reached before they are enacted.
That's just a roughed out framework of course, but it should illustrate the concept and context.
One step at a time is key.
Cheers,
Cross
Just to check, did I successfully explain why I'm in favour of scout > sentinel > commando = assault = logi? I hope I've explained why I feel this is preferable to the OP's suggestion of scout > logi > assault > commando > sentinel. I've also explained a method of working out the relative levels of base shield regen that should be applied to each role, i.e. fitted suits should experience similar recovery times.
I believe you did, but you also mentioned you were including the use of fitted mods in your outline correct?
Where as the OP does not include fitted mods in the outlined concept and saves the inclusion of their effects for the following step.
If I have misread your intent and you instead advocate that without mods fitted the relation should be scout > sentinel > commando = assault = logi then please correct me.
Further I will reiterate that while in some cases I could fully support the margins being very small, I do not support a hard and fast X must equal Y method because it constrains fine tuning balance during further development.
As an illustrative example I could support conceptually placing gal and amarr shield regen within 0.1 of each other, but I would not support a methodology that called for them to remain at all times identical to each other.
The same is true for roles, we can push the margins and I am totally open to that discussion, but a hard and fast rule of 'these roles much always remain equal' is something I find too conceptually limiting to be supported.
Thanks for your continued participation
Cross
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 16:55:00 -
[173] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:TL/DR
- All fitted racial suits should have similar recovery times.
- Heavier suits should fit more regen, lighter suits less regen.
- Therefore base regen rate progression should either be light > heavy > medium (like now), or light > heavy = medium (like my spreadsheet).
Just to do a deeper dive in case we're not on the same page.
When defining a suit as "fitted" are you assuming all H/L slots using mods of the same value and being completely filled with tanking mods? Are you assuming a given % of total slots being fitted with tanking mods (as total H/L slot count differs between roles)?
You are defining recovery time as "time it takes to get from 0 HP to full HP" correct? If so is it acceptable in your estimation for that recovery time to be varied in the case of roles or suits that fully buffer tank rather than fit any regen mods?
What ratio of regen mods to buffer mods (and which mods) are you assuming are used?
To make this more tangible, under your proposal what would the fits look like for a Cal Mando and a Cal Assault so that their fitted values ultimately equate?
You do note a guideline for this in your second point, Heavier suits should fit more regen, lighter suits less regen. but the question becomes how are we balancing that. Is one energizer slot on a heavy meant to equal one extender slot on an assault?
What is the base regen rate (HP/s) per buffer rate (raw HP) ratio needed to provide an equal method - considering that extenders are raw HP and regen mods are % based - and how do we account for each role having a viable place within the speed vs eHP curve if suits with higher base buffer HP are also slated to have higher base regen rates?
I know this is quite the pile of questions so allow me to be absolutely clear that they are sincere questions not just a pile of "?" meant to smother alternate ideas. I may not see the path with all of these myself but you are much more firmly acquainted with your idea and thus I rely on you to illuminate it for me
(as to the questions themselves they are the kinds of things which the CPM wrestled with prior to coming to the conclusion that a fundamental method was needed so that mod balance could be adequately addressed).
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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MexXx Dust-Slayer
Fatal Absolution
497
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Posted - 2015.09.20 16:58:00 -
[174] - Quote
MAeon Amadi wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Doc DDD wrote: The time spent debating the necessity of nerfing shield regen and actually altering it would have far better been spent either playing the game and realizing how rediculous the nerf would be Of course at the time shield tanks were the ones that were overpowered so the nerf seemed entirely appropriate, indeed if armor tanks didnt have this absurd rep/hardener synergy they might actually be much closer to balanced. [quote=Doc DDD] or by fixing shield boosters or having second thoughts about MAKING ARMOR HARDNERS BETTER THAN SHIELD HARDENERS IN EVERY WAY. Hindsight is easymode. It's not a matter of Hindsight, some were very outspoken regarding the armor hardener buff and shield regen nerf, and the true reason shields were superior was that you could STACK ARMOR PLATES AND DAMAGE MODS. But this is for another thread at another time. Buffing Gallente shields just makes the buffer better on a suit that can stack armor plates and damage mods. I question how OP having high regen on 200 shields is when the regen doesn't occur while taking damage. Wouldn't matter how much regen they have, their primary tank is still going to be armor and if they managed to get away/killed you before you broke their shields having a high regen wouldn't matter anyway because you've got bigger problems
That 200 shields can be up to 35/45/55% more survivable than the 200 armor counterpart to rail/projectile/explosives (the counters to armor). It would and already does incentivize running shield extenders.
The current problem with shield suits vs armor suits is that the armor suits have a much more regenerative secondary buffer than the shield suits. Once a shield user loses more than 3/4s of his armor, he has to wait around 1-2 minutes to see it full again, while armour suits are regen'ing shields in around 20seconds.
If buffing the gal assault's shield regen is logical then would buffing the cal assaults armour regen be logical too?
Armor is not necessarily better than shields currently, armor suits are better than shield suits in the sense that they benefit from damage mods and a better secondary tank. Shield suits basically rely solely on shields, while (as many armor-only user may not believe) armor suits rely on both, but of course armor more. I think this is why Doc and others see at least slightly nerfing the armor suits shield regen as logical, creating a distinct gap between shield suit's and armor suit's base shield regen much like the armor regen of armor and shield suits.
I understand that your next step would be to nerf secondary tanks, this will leave the cal assault even more susceptible to the scrambler rifle and other (high dps) shields weapons, and likewise with armor suits and CRs etc. If a lower ttk is the intent, then go for it.
Not saying gal assault will be OP.
Other than that, I agree with the fundamentals and standardization.
EDIT: Actually, why not buff armor regen across the board, nerf shield regen on armor suits, buff shield suits's shield regen. |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.20 16:59:00 -
[175] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:I believe you did, but you also mentioned you were including the use of fitted mods in your outline correct? Where as the OP does not include fitted mods in the outlined concept and saves the inclusion of their effects for the following step. If I have misread your intent and you instead advocate that without mods fitted the relation should be scout > sentinel > commando = assault = logi then please correct me. Further I will reiterate that while in some cases I could fully support the margins being very small, I do not support a hard and fast X must equal Y method because it constrains fine tuning balance during further development. As an illustrative example I could support conceptually placing gal and amarr shield regen within 0.1 of each other, but I would not support a methodology that called for them to remain at all times identical to each other. The same is true for roles, we can push the margins and I am totally open to that discussion, but a hard and fast rule of 'these roles much always remain equal' is something I find too conceptually limiting to be supported. Thanks for your continued participation Cross
Thanks for your reply. I in fact meant without modules the regen rate relationship should be scout > sentinel > commando = assault = logi. But I did use modules as my reasoning. My reasoning being that with modules they should all have approximately equal recovery times.
I understand what you mean about the constraints of setting things equal to each other. I was using the term more to demonstrate things being approximately equal. Obviously I wouldn't mind small variations, but it indicates where there should be more or less variation. For example, you could say scout > assault > commando, but I would like to see a much bigger difference between assault and scout, than assault and commando.
Also, there would be a certain simplicity in setting some stats equal to each other. So with the case of Gallente and Amarr, obviously there isn't much difference between a small variation between the two, and them being equal. However I can't think of any reason that they should differ in shield regen stats, so it may be neater to keep them equal. To be honest I don't think it matters too much.
I accept there is a problem with including modules in my considerations, since they are open to separate change. However, there is a limit to how much modules are likely to change. I think we should give some consideration to module mechanics when considering balance (much like Rattati did with the very successful hp/speed balance). Unless we are going to set the number of module slots equal amongst all classes, and make all hp and regen modules percentage based, I think it is difficult to discount modules due to the very different ways in which suits are fitted.
That said, I think I have come up with another solution for finding the correct design!
Behold my consideration of shield recovery times:
Recovery times (look at the "shield recovery" tab).
Now, you can see there is a clear pattern to recovery time:
Scout > logi > assault > sentinel > commando.
To make this fit with inverse hp, as suggested in the OP, all we need to do is make it:
Scout > logi > assault > commando > sentinel.
This is easy, just buff commando regen so the recovery time fits between assault and sentinel. My spreadsheet suggests 18 seconds as an example.
And we have a clear and easy to understand progression without involving modules. What do you think? |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 17:11:00 -
[176] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:TL/DR
- All fitted racial suits should have similar recovery times.
- Heavier suits should fit more regen, lighter suits less regen.
- Therefore base regen rate progression should either be light > heavy > medium (like now), or light > heavy = medium (like my spreadsheet). Just to do a deeper dive in case we're not on the same page. When defining a suit as "fitted" are you assuming all H/L slots using mods of the same value and being completely filled with tanking mods? Are you assuming a given % of total slots being fitted with tanking mods (as total H/L slot count differs between roles)? You are defining recovery time as "time it takes to get from 0 HP to full HP" correct? If so is it acceptable in your estimation for that recovery time to be varied in the case of roles or suits that fully buffer tank rather than fit any regen mods? What ratio of regen mods to buffer mods (and which mods) are you assuming are used? To make this more tangible, under your proposal what would the fits look like for a Cal Mando and a Cal Assault so that their fitted values ultimately equate? You do note a guideline for this in your second point, Heavier suits should fit more regen, lighter suits less regen. but the question becomes how are we balancing that. Is one energizer slot on a heavy meant to equal one extender slot on an assault? What is the base regen rate (HP/s) per buffer rate (raw HP) ratio needed to provide an equal method - considering that extenders are raw HP and regen mods are % based - and how do we account for each role having a viable place within the speed vs eHP curve if suits with higher base buffer HP are also slated to have higher base regen rates? I know this is quite the pile of questions so allow me to be absolutely clear that they are sincere questions not just a pile of "?" meant to smother alternate ideas. I may not see the path with all of these myself but you are much more firmly acquainted with your idea and thus I rely on you to illuminate it for me (as to the questions themselves they are the kinds of things which the CPM wrestled with prior to coming to the conclusion that a fundamental method was needed so that mod balance could be adequately addressed).
All good questions. I think the thing to remember is that my proposal doesn't deal with absolute values but rather design philosophy.
I was looking at common fitting approaches, accepting that there will be variations. It is impossible to predict exactly how people will fit their suits, however there are facts we can go off. Such as the fact that sentinels have more base hp, mediums have more module slots, hp mods are fixed values etc.
I did provide some example fits. I feel using approximations of real in-game fits are better than extremes such as fitting all mods with hp, for example.
I accept that using modules is a bit tricky though. Hence I have come up with a module free method.
I've already posted it, but essentially it advocates a progression based on recovery time. To be clear, this means the time it takes for shields to regenerate from 1hp to full hp (including the delay, which isn't depleted since we are starting at 1 not 0 hp). |
Arirana
Ancient Exiles.
1
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Posted - 2015.09.20 17:51:00 -
[177] - Quote
TL;DRThis change closes the gap that shield suits have over armor suits, while the real problem (the gap between shield modules and armor modules) is being unaffected.
I just want to point out that the percentile view of these changes cannot be ignored. Its widely believed that the gallente assault is over performing, and these changes suggest a 75% increase in shield regen rate, and a 42.8% decrease in shield recharge delay for the gal assault.
While the Caldari assault which is believed to be doing the opposite is receiving a 50% buff to shield regen rate and a 40% decrease in shield recharge delay. Its not hard to see the point of view of those that feel uneasy about this change.
The only advantage the caldari suits currently have over the other suits is the large difference in base shield regen values. A gal assault can achieve very similar shield stats to the base caldari assault stats with 2 shield extenders, one recharger, 1 shield regulator(4 modules) yet the cal assault can achieve the base armor tank of a gal with 2 ferroscales and 1 basic armor repairer(3).
This is because of a combination of things. The strength of shield tanking, regen, is built into the shield suits, so cal assaults without any modules have an advantage over the others without modules. While the strength of armor tanking, which is a high HP ceiling and armor repairers that repair instantly despite being shot, is felt after stacking several armor modules on the 5 low slots the armor suits have.
The issue is the difference between shield modules and armor modules. Shield extenders cost more fitting space compared to ferros while giving less HP(they cost more isk too), and the ferros don't even have a penalty. Armor repairers have ZERO delay, but its not just armor repairers. Armor rep hives can take the place of armor repairers allowing one to tank more armor HP (its main strength). Shields do not have a piece of equipment which directly augments it through self use like armor rep hives.
The Official Ari QQ Thread
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
534
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Posted - 2015.09.20 17:54:00 -
[178] - Quote
Why not just give the Cal Scout shield regen stats to all Cal suits with the Ca Sentinel retaining it's depleted bonus, I'm all for having all Cal suits having the Sentinel depleted bonus as the only time it comes into play is when the suit is fluxed.
No other race requires their shields to be improved in anyway.
Cal suits should be as useless without shields as gal/amar without armor.
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Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.20 17:59:00 -
[179] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:A lot of this looks more like our (CPM) 'step 2'
#1 is the base suit stats having a method that provides a solid foundation
#2 is tuning the mods (and hopefully adding a few options as well) to give shields more love and diversity
#3 is looking at possible comparative issues with weapons, such a profile bias, this is more of a side step.
#4 is looking at the raw stats of the armor mods.
The iterative balance process takes this one step at a time and allows for more finite adjustments as well as leaving entire steps alone if balance is reached before they are enacted.
That's just a roughed out framework of course, but it should illustrate the concept and context.
[/b]
Cheers,
Cross
Are there any plans to look into the disparity of equipment? Availability of triage hives and rep tool support is a real spoiler that takes away the one advantage shield suits (at least currently) have, primary tank repair speed. |
Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
534
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 18:02:00 -
[180] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Cross Atu wrote:A lot of this looks more like our (CPM) 'step 2'
#1 is the base suit stats having a method that provides a solid foundation
#2 is tuning the mods (and hopefully adding a few options as well) to give shields more love and diversity
#3 is looking at possible comparative issues with weapons, such a profile bias, this is more of a side step.
#4 is looking at the raw stats of the armor mods.
The iterative balance process takes this one step at a time and allows for more finite adjustments as well as leaving entire steps alone if balance is reached before they are enacted.
That's just a roughed out framework of course, but it should illustrate the concept and context.
[/b]
Cheers,
Cross Are there any plans to look into the disparity of equipment? Availability of triage hives and rep tool support is a real spoiler that takes away the one advantage shield suits (at least currently) have, primary tank repair speed.
Giving all caldari suits the current scout regen with sentinel depleted delay could help offset the disparity brought on by secondary regen sources available to armor.
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Devadander
Woodgrain Atari
700
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Posted - 2015.09.20 18:08:00 -
[181] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Ratatti et al actually agreed to NERF SHIELD REGEN on shield vehicles as they thought the stat was OP.. Now no one sensible uses shield vehicles outside of the redline.
Its worth noting that the regen nerf is probably not the reason shield tanks arent used anymore, more likely the problem for shield tanks is that armor tanks are way, way better.
Or that shield is simply way way worse.....
Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå
Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.20 18:12:00 -
[182] - Quote
I've added a proposal for number changes.
Shield Recovery Progression
The higher the hp of the suit, the longer it takes to fully recover it's shields (starting from 1).
It's very simple, just an increase in commando regen and decrease in commando delay. Just a buff for commandos, like many have said is needed.
Follow this principle for the other races, along the Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente >(=) Amarr design. I haven't checked all their recovery rates, but the principle is set by the Caldari.
Balancing shields can come in step 2. |
Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.09.20 18:12:00 -
[183] - Quote
Can we get back to the topic at hand? The proposal Aeon drew up?
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Devadander
Woodgrain Atari
700
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Posted - 2015.09.20 18:17:00 -
[184] - Quote
Gal regen delays need to come up to 20-25 seconds in order for me to be OK with this.
Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå
Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.20 18:23:00 -
[185] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Can we get back to the topic at hand? The proposal Aeon drew up?
If there are potentially better ideas out there, why would we opt not to discuss them? |
Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
420
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Posted - 2015.09.20 18:30:00 -
[186] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:
The foundational method makes the situation easier to assess and address.
Which seems to be what people aren't getting. As I understand it, this thread is about finding a foundational method that makes more sense than the other ones, so we have a predictable framework to work within
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.20 18:40:00 -
[187] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Cross Atu wrote:A lot of this looks more like our (CPM) 'step 2'
#1 is the base suit stats having a method that provides a solid foundation
#2 is tuning the mods (and hopefully adding a few options as well) to give shields more love and diversity
#3 is looking at possible comparative issues with weapons, such a profile bias, this is more of a side step.
#4 is looking at the raw stats of the armor mods.
The iterative balance process takes this one step at a time and allows for more finite adjustments as well as leaving entire steps alone if balance is reached before they are enacted.
That's just a roughed out framework of course, but it should illustrate the concept and context.
[/b]
Cheers,
Cross Are there any plans to look into the disparity of equipment? Availability of triage hives and rep tool support is a real spoiler that takes away the one advantage shield suits (at least currently) have, primary tank repair speed. Giving all caldari suits the current scout regen with sentinel depleted delay could help offset the disparity brought on by secondary regen sources available to armor.
Thats true, but looking at it from a practical perspective, I find it doubtful and I feel like if it did turn out that way it would make Cal suits pretty rediculously overpowered in a low teamwork environment (1v1 fights or pubs for example).
You can think of it this way:
If a Cal suits regen is so good it can compete with armor tank + repair tool then wouldnt 1 Cal suit vs. 1 armor tank alone just be a complete blowout? Im sure you could find a balance between factors somewhere but sounds unlikely. I'd much rather have some neat equipment shield users can exploit to achieve teamwork induced parity. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.09.20 19:05:00 -
[188] - Quote
Quote:its widely believed that the gallente assault is over performing,
By whom?
The galassault and minassault seem to be solid performers when not stacked completely for HP.
The amarr assault is competitive when stacked for plates and reps or when fit to ferroscale/ speed meta.
Caldari are the only assaults that fail to find a solid place on the field. Why? Because shield tanking is handicapped.
Min fits can shield tank but there's little reson to bother. It takes too long. Kincats are a better option.
Shield tanking gallente and amarr is a waste of slots no matter what you do.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
534
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 19:20:00 -
[189] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Cross Atu wrote:A lot of this looks more like our (CPM) 'step 2'
#1 is the base suit stats having a method that provides a solid foundation
#2 is tuning the mods (and hopefully adding a few options as well) to give shields more love and diversity
#3 is looking at possible comparative issues with weapons, such a profile bias, this is more of a side step.
#4 is looking at the raw stats of the armor mods.
The iterative balance process takes this one step at a time and allows for more finite adjustments as well as leaving entire steps alone if balance is reached before they are enacted.
That's just a roughed out framework of course, but it should illustrate the concept and context.
[/b]
Cheers,
Cross Are there any plans to look into the disparity of equipment? Availability of triage hives and rep tool support is a real spoiler that takes away the one advantage shield suits (at least currently) have, primary tank repair speed. Giving all caldari suits the current scout regen with sentinel depleted delay could help offset the disparity brought on by secondary regen sources available to armor. Thats true, but looking at it from a practical perspective, I find it doubtful and I feel like if it did turn out that way it would make Cal suits pretty rediculously overpowered in a low teamwork environment (1v1 fights or pubs for example). You can think of it this way: If a Cal suits regen is so good it can compete with armor tank + repair tool then wouldnt 1 Cal suit vs. 1 armor tank alone just be a complete blowout? Im sure you could find a balance between factors somewhere but sounds unlikely. I'd much rather have some neat equipment shield users can exploit to achieve teamwork induced parity.
I don't see how it would be overpowered, scout would be the same, sentinel the same, assault a little better, commando quite a bit better.. not even close to an armor stacked player with a rep tool.. no delay on armor reps or damage threshold which is a huge bonus to armor. Not to mention damage mods. 700 shields vs 700 armor shooting at eachother for 2 seconds will have the armor suit repping for 2 straight seconds while the shield suit will still have a delay when it stops taking damage.. apples=/=oranges with Ehp.
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
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Posted - 2015.09.20 19:25:00 -
[190] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Cross Atu wrote:A lot of this looks more like our (CPM) 'step 2'
#1 is the base suit stats having a method that provides a solid foundation
#2 is tuning the mods (and hopefully adding a few options as well) to give shields more love and diversity
#3 is looking at possible comparative issues with weapons, such a profile bias, this is more of a side step.
#4 is looking at the raw stats of the armor mods.
The iterative balance process takes this one step at a time and allows for more finite adjustments as well as leaving entire steps alone if balance is reached before they are enacted.
That's just a roughed out framework of course, but it should illustrate the concept and context.
[/b]
Cheers,
Cross Are there any plans to look into the disparity of equipment? Availability of triage hives and rep tool support is a real spoiler that takes away the one advantage shield suits (at least currently) have, primary tank repair speed.
Yes, I've been chewing on an overhaul of equipment which very much includes considerations of adding shield based support actions. It was not included in the above rough list because 'the equipment stuff' and 'the shield stuff' has sort of been mentally in differing 'stacks' for me. (I do however remain aware of their implications for each other and as recently as today was commenting on this very subject to my fellow CPM members)
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
534
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 19:27:00 -
[191] - Quote
Repping an extra 10 shields per second under cover is not going to matter much when the player is getting blasted before his shields rep more than one cycle. |
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
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Posted - 2015.09.20 19:31:00 -
[192] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Cross Atu wrote:
The foundational method makes the situation easier to assess and address.
Which seems to be what people aren't getting. As I understand it, this thread is about finding a foundational method that makes more sense than the other ones, so we have a predictable framework to work within
Spot on.
Lots of folks seem to want to, understandably, jump in with both feet and start tweaking actual numbers and applying mods to fits with a layer of racial or role bonuses.
All of these things are absolutely relevant, there's no real question of that, but trying to tackle everything at once - as opposed to working one step at a time from macro to micro - is largely responsible for the various issues of imbalance seen during Dusts history.
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.20 19:32:00 -
[193] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Cross Atu wrote:A lot of this looks more like our (CPM) 'step 2'
#1 is the base suit stats having a method that provides a solid foundation
#2 is tuning the mods (and hopefully adding a few options as well) to give shields more love and diversity
#3 is looking at possible comparative issues with weapons, such a profile bias, this is more of a side step.
#4 is looking at the raw stats of the armor mods.
The iterative balance process takes this one step at a time and allows for more finite adjustments as well as leaving entire steps alone if balance is reached before they are enacted.
That's just a roughed out framework of course, but it should illustrate the concept and context.
[/b]
Cheers,
Cross Are there any plans to look into the disparity of equipment? Availability of triage hives and rep tool support is a real spoiler that takes away the one advantage shield suits (at least currently) have, primary tank repair speed. Giving all caldari suits the current scout regen with sentinel depleted delay could help offset the disparity brought on by secondary regen sources available to armor. Thats true, but looking at it from a practical perspective, I find it doubtful and I feel like if it did turn out that way it would make Cal suits pretty rediculously overpowered in a low teamwork environment (1v1 fights or pubs for example). You can think of it this way: If a Cal suits regen is so good it can compete with armor tank + repair tool then wouldnt 1 Cal suit vs. 1 armor tank alone just be a complete blowout? Im sure you could find a balance between factors somewhere but sounds unlikely. I'd much rather have some neat equipment shield users can exploit to achieve teamwork induced parity. I don't see how it would be overpowered, scout would be the same, sentinel the same, assault a little better, commando quite a bit better.. not even close to an armor stacked player with a rep tool.. no delay on armor reps or damage threshold which is a huge bonus to armor. Not to mention damage mods. 700 shields vs 700 armor shooting at eachother for 2 seconds will have the armor suit repping for 2 straight seconds while the shield suit will still have a delay when it stops taking damage.. apples=/=oranges with Ehp.
"not even close to an armor stacked player with a rep tool"
Then shields still fail in the overall meta. Thats why I was asking about support equipment.
If shield suits cant compete as a team against armor based suits, its still not balanced. |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 19:44:00 -
[194] - Quote
Shield regen progression based on common recovery time
I've fleshed out the proposal to include all suits.
Method:
Set Caldari shield recovery times to follow shield hp in the following progression:
scout - logi - assault -commando - sentinel.
This is achieved by buffing commando delay to be equal to the assault and buffing regen rate so that recovery time falls in between assault and sentinel, in the same position that a commando's hp does.
Using Caldari suit shield recovery times as a template I have adjusted all suit regen rates so that their recovery times are approximately equal to my new Caldari recovery times. Note that the Caldari commando was the only suit where I have adjusted the delay. This is because all other commandos have their delay equal to assaults, and other suits follow a clear delay pattern.
All suits now follow the recovery time progression on scout < logi < assault < commando < sentinel
This results in the largest buff going to the Caldari commando. However there are minor buffs to most suits. The only suit that gets a nerf is the Minmatar logi. This is due to the unusually armour heavy tank of the Min logi.
Before the Caldari players freak out, if the recovery time is the same, Caldari suits will regen at a faster rate as they have more shields to recover. The only Caldari suit I have messed with is the commando. And yes, this method results in buffing most suit shield regen other than Caldari. I will say though, they are only minor buffs, much less extreme than the OP. This is NOT meant to address shield - armour balance. Balance will need to be fixed in another way. It does fix shield regen for commandos relative to other suits however. |
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 19:47:00 -
[195] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:
"not even close to an armor stacked player with a rep tool"
Then shields still fail in the overall meta. Thats why I was asking about support equipment.
If shield suits cant compete as a team against armor based suits, its still not balanced.
Yeah if shield suits are not able to hold a viable place then balances is skewed.
Equally, if 1 merc (running shields, or armor, or a pink bunny suit, doesn't matter) is as potent as 2 mercs running an alternate fitting type then we still don't have balance.
Having the possibility of shield support actions thus becomes rather important because then it's down to player and team choices which options to bring to the field. It's opportunity cost.
Currently there's some degree of catch 22 in that if a squad of 4 shield based mercs can't stand against 4 armor based mercs 1-2 of which are support then there's clearly not functional balance.
However if 1 shield based merc can stand against 1 armor based merc with reps (meaning the shield merc is winning a 2v1) then there is also not functional balance.
It is also why the first step, the codification of a clear conceptual method, is so vital and cannot be done within the context of tweaking current numbers especially on mods etc
It is needful to break it down into it's simplest possible state and move upward from there into details which will tune things.
Honestly almost any number set is going to end up being altered after its actual in game effects are seen, so getting caught looking for the perfect set of numbers prior to deployment will likely just bog down making any changes at all.
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.20 19:59:00 -
[196] - Quote
It's interesting to note that for my recovery time based proposal, I have only had to make very minor changes to assaults. They already have approximately the same shield recovery times as each other.
Perhaps this is already CCP's design, at least as far as assaults are concerned. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.09.20 20:04:00 -
[197] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:It's interesting to note that for my recovery time based proposal, I have only had to make very minor changes to assaults. They already have approximately the same shield recovery times as each other.
Perhaps this is already CCP's design, at least as far as assaults are concerned.
so why do you have the minlogi taking a shield regen nerf?
that makes zero sense in any context. 15 regen/sec makes shield rechargers and energizers largely useless
You seem to object to heavy HP suits getting a shield buff, but all of your armor tanked suits get some kind of shield buff.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.20 20:15:00 -
[198] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:It's interesting to note that for my recovery time based proposal, I have only had to make very minor changes to assaults. They already have approximately the same shield recovery times as each other.
Perhaps this is already CCP's design, at least as far as assaults are concerned. so why do you have the minlogi taking a shield regen nerf? that makes zero sense in any context. 15 regen/sec makes shield rechargers and energizers largely useless You seem to object to heavy HP suits getting a shield buff, but all of your armor tanked suits get some kind of shield buff.
What's the Min logi got to do with assault recovery times?
I think you are misunderstanding the premise of my proposal. It is based on shield recovery time. Minmatar logis have unusually low shields, and more armour to compensate. With less shields it takes less time for them to regen, therefore they don't need as high a regen rate. If their shield and armour hp values were rebalanced they could retain their regen. If you are worried about bias, Min logi is one of my top most used suits.
And since when am I against heavy HP suits getting a shield buff? My proposal has Caldari commandos receiving the largest buff, and in most cases commandos and sentinels are getting buffed more than the others.
Mainly though, in comparison to the OP's proposal, sentinel shield regen will be considerably faster when compared to assaults and logis. So this is a much better deal for heavies than the OP's proposal.
Amarr assaults and scouts are armour suits that won't be getting a buff. And most of the buffs are minor anyway.
Also, I thought the whole point of this was to come up with a framework for shield regen, not worry about balancing everything. Don't get stuck on the details and think about the whole picture. Basing regen on recovery time makes much more sense than doing it purely on the regen figures as it takes into account all shield stats, including hp. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 20:25:00 -
[199] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:It's interesting to note that for my recovery time based proposal, I have only had to make very minor changes to assaults. They already have approximately the same shield recovery times as each other.
Perhaps this is already CCP's design, at least as far as assaults are concerned. so why do you have the minlogi taking a shield regen nerf? that makes zero sense in any context. 15 regen/sec makes shield rechargers and energizers largely useless You seem to object to heavy HP suits getting a shield buff, but all of your armor tanked suits get some kind of shield buff. I think you are misunderstanding the premise of my proposal. It is based on shield recovery time. Minmatar logis have unusually low shields, and more armour to compensate. With less shields it takes less time for them to regen, therefore they don't need as high a regen rate. If their shield and armour hp values were rebalanced they could retain their regen. And since when am I against heavy HP suits getting a shield buff? My proposal has Caldari commandos receiving the largest buff, and in general commandos and sentinels are getting buffed more than the others. Min scouts the possible exception. Mainly though, in comparison to the OP's proposal, sentinel shield regen will be considerably faster when compared to assaults and logis. So this is a much better deal for heavies than the OP's proposal.
the other half of the proposal aeon is working on is mine, I'm doing the depleted delays and shield module tweaks. Aeon's assessment of where the recharge delays appears to be spot on.
the objective is to make shields GOOD again, on par with armor for utility IF you take it on a 1 for 1 basis and throw the armor tool out the window for the consideration.
If shields are good across the board, then the caldari and minmatar benefit most solidly no matter what because the shield regeneration modules start with a sronger baseline to work from.
Further, the min logi can shield tank rather well, it's slot layout determines that it can speed tank, armor tank, shield tank or DPS tank. Using the baseline shield/armor stats is taking a small piece of the picture and making that the sum.
This is not a stealth "Buff armor suits" thread.
This is hunting a cohesive and coherent curve that can be used as a baseline so that if things need adjusting the whole curve can shift equally instead of the haphazard shuffle of balance we have had in the past.
We, the CPM are seeking a LINEAR, and LOGICAL progression of shield recharge delays that does not use arbitrary metrics.
For example:
Making gallente and amarr shield stats the same is a bad idea IMHO because the amarr have a higher proportionate armor to shield ratio than the gallente assault does. since the amarr are less dependent on shields and more focused on armor buffer, why should they enjoy equal shield protection to the other armor race who cannot match them for raw HP?
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.20 20:44:00 -
[200] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:
the other half of the proposal aeon is working on is mine, I'm doing the depleted delays and shield module tweaks. Aeon's assessment of where the recharge delays appears to be spot on.
the objective is to make shields GOOD again, on par with armor for utility IF you take it on a 1 for 1 basis and throw the armor tool out the window for the consideration.
If shields are good across the board, then the caldari and minmatar benefit most solidly no matter what because the shield regeneration modules start with a sronger baseline to work from.
Further, the min logi can shield tank rather well, it's slot layout determines that it can speed tank, armor tank, shield tank or DPS tank. Using the baseline shield/armor stats is taking a small piece of the picture and making that the sum.
This is not a stealth "Buff armor suits" thread.
This is hunting a cohesive and coherent curve that can be used as a baseline so that if things need adjusting the whole curve can shift equally instead of the haphazard shuffle of balance we have had in the past.
We, the CPM are seeking a LINEAR, and LOGICAL progression of shield recharge delays that does not use arbitrary metrics.
For example:
Making gallente and amarr shield stats the same is a bad idea IMHO because the amarr have a higher proportionate armor to shield ratio than the gallente assault does. since the amarr are less dependent on shields and more focused on armor buffer, why should they enjoy equal shield protection to the other armor race who cannot match them for raw HP?
I added this statement to my previous post
"Also, I thought the whole point of this was to come up with a framework for shield regen, not worry about balancing everything. Don't get stuck on the details and think about the whole picture. Basing regen on recovery time makes much more sense than doing it purely on the regen figures as it takes into account all shield stats, including hp."
I'm not accusing anyone of stealth armour buffing, nor am I trying to do that myself. Was this directed at others?
You will also notice that my proposal differentiates Amarr and Gallente regen by putting Gallente regen rates above Amarr due to their larger shield buffer.
I've come up with a logical progression. One that mostly avoids the issues brought up by others in this thread. People have voiced major concerns, such as fears about a rise in dual tanking, disproportionate buffs to assaults that are going to be difficult to balance further down the road, disproportionate buffs to Gallente suits.
My proposal shows a linear progression of shield recovery with hp. The numbers aren't set in stone, but it's the principle that is important. |
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 21:04:00 -
[201] - Quote
Aeon's also creates a linear progression along that same slant, what is the major objection to his numbers?
What makes them bad?
Why is this curve he proposes a bad thing that needs to be opposed and changed?
If the answer is "I don't like it" then that's a valid answer, but the issue is getting confused by irrelevant and seemingly random statements from various individuals ranging from "Gallente are overperforming" which has nothing to do with this proposal or in my assessment, reality, to "King HP" and "Spin and win" which are both anecdotal, deliberately inflammatory and irrelevant.
I've already TORTUROUSLY picked Aeon's proposal apart screaming to the point where he was willing to give up talking to me entirely in private, and I am now finally satisfied with what he's cooking in the stew pot. Cross has picked apart Aeon's proposal (much more politely than I have) and so have the others.
So tell me, objectively, with numbers. What is insufficient in Aeon's shield regeneration overhaul proposal that is worth the amount of vehement opposition I have seen in this thread?
As Valroth CORRECTLY assessed:
This proposal is about a method. the numbers can be tweaked to fit the setup we need, at will.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 21:14:00 -
[202] - Quote
Adding on to Breakin's point, this also is the first step in balancing shields as a whole: it's not like this will be the only step in the process of balance. Even if it makes Gallente overperform (it won't, btw) that will be corrected by one of the subsequent steps.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Devadander
Woodgrain Atari
700
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 21:19:00 -
[203] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:
"not even close to an armor stacked player with a rep tool"
Then shields still fail in the overall meta. Thats why I was asking about support equipment.
If shield suits cant compete as a team against armor based suits, its still not balanced.
Yeah if shield suits are not able to hold a viable place then balances is skewed. Equally, if 1 merc (running shields, or armor, or a pink bunny suit, doesn't matter) is as potent as 2 mercs running an alternate fitting type then we still don't have balance. Having the possibility of shield support actions thus becomes rather important because then it's down to player and team choices which options to bring to the field. It's opportunity cost. Currently there's some degree of catch 22 in that if a squad of 4 shield based mercs can't stand against 4 armor based mercs 1-2 of which are support then there's clearly not functional balance. However if 1 shield based merc can stand against 1 armor based merc with reps (meaning the shield merc is winning a 2v1) then there is also not functional balance. It is also why the first step, the codification of a clear conceptual method, is so vital and cannot be done within the context of tweaking current numbers especially on mods etc It is needful to break it down into it's simplest possible state and move upward from there into details which will tune things. Honestly almost any number set is going to end up being altered after its actual in game effects are seen, so getting caught looking for the perfect set of numbers prior to deployment will likely just bog down making any changes at all.
I have to support this completely now.
The force is strong with this one.
Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå
Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
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Devadander
Woodgrain Atari
700
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 21:28:00 -
[204] - Quote
To clarify: We have indeed seen wonders suggested in the past that went stale within weeks.
I can see where this leads, and its glorious.
But, the steam can't stop once this starts rolling. This isn't something that can be drug out over a year and expect to have any shield players left. The initial change will leave us balanced... but out-supported. Things have to move quickly.
On that note, the more we buck and argue, the longer it will take. See the big picture and you will be on board.
Nobody runs more shield fits than me, sorry for all the heat. o7
Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå
Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 22:25:00 -
[205] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Aeon's also creates a linear progression along that same slant, what is the major objection to his numbers?
What makes them bad?
Why is this curve he proposes a bad thing that needs to be opposed and changed?
If the answer is "I don't like it" then that's a valid answer, but the issue is getting confused by irrelevant and seemingly random statements from various individuals ranging from "Gallente are overperforming" which has nothing to do with this proposal or in my assessment, reality, to "King HP" and "Spin and win" which are both anecdotal, deliberately inflammatory and irrelevant.
I've already TORTUROUSLY picked Aeon's proposal apart screaming to the point where he was willing to give up talking to me entirely in private, and I am now finally satisfied with what he's cooking in the stew pot. Cross has picked apart Aeon's proposal (much more politely than I have) and so have the others.
So tell me, objectively, with numbers. What is insufficient in Aeon's shield regeneration overhaul proposal that is worth the amount of vehement opposition I have seen in this thread?
As Valroth CORRECTLY assessed:
This proposal is about a method. the numbers can be tweaked to fit the setup we need, at will.
Ok, I'll try to explain the problems with the original proposal in another way.
So the original proposal advocates regen rates and delays following this progression:
Scout > assault > logistics > commando > sentinel
as opposed to what we have now, which is: scout > sentinel > assault ~ logi > commando
And it suggests keeping sentinels and scouts almost the same, and squeezing everything else in between, following a nice pattern.
This entails substantial buffs to assault, logi and commando shield regen. Most people agree that commando shield regen needs a buff, but generally people do not agree with buffing shield regen on assaults or logis. People would like Caldari assault and logi buffs, but not the other races. Yes this proposal will have more positive impact on Caldari suits, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a significant buff to other assaults and logis.
Now, I know balancing can be sorted out later, but how can we balance a situation like the one proposed? I think it will be difficult.
For example, currently the Minmatar (for example) scout enjoys a 15hp/s regen and 2s delay advantage over the Minmatar assault. The OP's proposal would reduce that advantage by 66% (regen) and by 100% (delay). This is similar for all races.
Likewise, sentinels have gone from having similar overall shield regen to assaults, to being significantly worse. Have you considered the fact that sentinels need better regen as they have more hp to regenerate?
How could these things later be balanced? Can you buff scout regen proportionately to the medium suit buff? It wouldn't mess up the progression as scouts are already on the furthest end of the spectrum. What about other buffs?
You could leave medium suits where they are and nerf sentinel regen to maintain the order of hp/regen progression, but how are you then going to have viable shield sentinels? Rechargers would be useless on them.
What about the issue of dual tanking? If you significantly buff armour suit shield regen, won't they just fit shield extenders in highs? What about regulators on shield suits? If delay is sufficiently short what is the incentive to fit them? Wouldn't people just fit armour? Reducing shield delay reduces the direct benefit of regulators.
There is already a shield recovery progression of sentinel < assault < logi < scout. Pushing regen rates and delays on medium suits much closer to scouts, whilst keeping scouts and sentinels the same, is going to skew this recovery progression far in favour of assaults and logis.
Yes this proposal will mean a mild improvement to shield tanking compared to armour tanking, and yes it makes some logical sense. Though no more sense than saying high hp suits should regen at a faster rate. Or a progression based on recovery times.
However it amounts to major buffs to all assaults, logis and commandos, without proportionate buffs to sentinels and scouts. It is unclear how you could maintain balance this way, and seems like it might encourage dual tanking.
Perhaps if there was some indication of how scouts and sentinels could be buffed in some way to maintain balance, along with assurances that shield tanking will be specifically looked at in addition, perhaps people would be more receptive to the idea.
Or you could look at alternative ideas that generally involve much less drastic changes, most of which underline the fact that the Caldari commando is the suit with sub par base shield regen, and the rest are mostly ok.
Just because you've had a long discussion about this before bringing it to the forums doesn't mean everyone has to agree it's a good idea. What was the point in this thread? To think about a good progression for shield regen, or to just agree with the system the CPM have already come up with? I do appreciate the work the CPM put in, just be open to other ideas. |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 22:36:00 -
[206] - Quote
Meh, maybe it will all be fine.
If scouts need buffing CCP could always role back some of the cloak nerfs a bit.
If sentinels need buffing CCP could always role back some of the HMG nerfs a bit.
If shield tanking needs more of a buff, there are ways.
Maybe people won't dual tank. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 23:47:00 -
[207] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Meh, maybe it will all be fine.
If scouts need buffing CCP could always role back some of the cloak nerfs a bit.
If sentinels need buffing CCP could always role back some of the HMG nerfs a bit.
If shield tanking needs more of a buff, there are ways.
Maybe people won't dual tank.
dual tanking will always be a thing unless doing so is directly penalized.
I've suggested doing so, but I'm outvoted.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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DeathwindRising
Titans of Phoenix
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:31:00 -
[208] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Meh, maybe it will all be fine.
If scouts need buffing CCP could always role back some of the cloak nerfs a bit.
If sentinels need buffing CCP could always role back some of the HMG nerfs a bit.
If shield tanking needs more of a buff, there are ways.
Maybe people won't dual tank. dual tanking will always be a thing unless doing so is directly penalized. I've suggested doing so, but I'm outvoted.
you dont outright penalize dual tanking. you make it impossible to make a viable fit.
meaning the pg and cpu cost of a dual tank would leave you running sidearms with no equipment. that would solve everything naturally.
the easiest way would be a fitting bonus to the modules. either increase fitting cost of the modules or reduce fitting capacity.
im also wondering about the overall design here. regarding caldari suits mostly, their slower suits need more regen than the more mobile suits |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:37:00 -
[209] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:
you dont outright penalize dual tanking. you make it impossible to make a viable fit. meaning the pg and cpu cost of a dual tank would leave you running sidearms with no equipment. that would solve everything naturally.
^ |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:39:00 -
[210] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote: "King HP" and "Spin and win" are both (1) anecdotal, (2) deliberately inflammatory and (3) irrelevant.
1. False
2. False
3. False
Because you say so? What does Rattati say?
CCP Rattati wrote:King HP is in for a surprise ... |
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Saint Winter
The Warlords Legion
No Context
119
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:42:00 -
[211] - Quote
Hello everyone.
I like this idea and there are many problems with shield and armor, but I think it also should see the modules that are responsible for enhancing these 2 important elements.
1.1 Shield Extender
While we shield the external defense of the suit and those who use them are caldaris more so you should receive a rebalancing. (I will not explain much)
Bas values GÇïGÇï25 PR / Adv 50 PR / PR Pro 75
As you can see at first bonus that is given to the shield it is weak but as the levels get 3 or more module receives a remarkable and what the penalty for delay remains the same improvement.
Note: there should be variations
1.2 Reinforcing and Shield Recharge.
For these modules I have no recommendation.
2. Armor
The Armor the internal defense of the suit and the most used by all players would give some good buff or rebalancing with its variants. (The penalty does not change)
2.1 Armor Plates
Bas 80 PR / Adv PR 110 / PR 140
2.2 Ferroscale Plates
Bas 50 PR / Adv 80 PR / PR Pro 110
2.3 Reactive Plates
Bas 20 PR + 1 ar / Adv 50 PR + 2 ar / Pro 80 ar + PR + 3 Penalty Movement in 1% to 3 levels.
2.4 Armor Repairer
Bas 2 ar + / Adv 4 ar + / Pro 8 ar +
As you can see there is quite a marked improvement in this armor modules for modules serve as ferroscales or reactive variants are not left short before the armor plate.
I do not want to bother with this idea but I think they should change the values of the modules to support the shields and armor.
Although the armor has more resistance that the shield, but the shield has better regeneration and regeneration rate. |
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 01:00:00 -
[212] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Meh, maybe it will all be fine.
If scouts need buffing CCP could always role back some of the cloak nerfs a bit.
If sentinels need buffing CCP could always role back some of the HMG nerfs a bit.
If shield tanking needs more of a buff, there are ways.
Maybe people won't dual tank. dual tanking will always be a thing unless doing so is directly penalized. I've suggested doing so, but I'm outvoted.
I have long held that the worries about duel tanking are drastically over stated and are usually attempting to solve a problem by attacking the symptom.
There are primarily two major reasons why people duel tank.
1) Relative TTK is too low for their tastes (their own at least, I'm sure many of them would happy if a higher TTK applied only to them and not everyone )
2) There's little to nothing of equal worth to fill those H/L slots with.
Duel tanking is in many cases less about tanking and more about having no other useful option.
The Min suits can fit other mods relatively well in some cases because they are already high mobility suits.
Some fits (min or otherwise) will indeed stack damage mods, but there's a penalty to stacking them and they only fit in the high slots.
A subset of suits can meaningful benefit from some of the eWar mods, but only some, others are pretty near useless.
The CPU/PG utility mods are employed but they're used to stretch a fitting so you can fill another slot or two, that's fine as far as it goes but it doesn't change end result profiles on fitting emphasis.
The underling situation is that if there were H/L mods of equal value you wouldn't see such common duel tanking, but honestly for most fits a bit more HP or eHP (regen counts) has more use than the other options on the table and part of that is down to how game play flows. No one enjoys dying without even a chance to respond so players stack HP to avoid frustrating in match experiences. If speed mods, eWar mods, damage mods, hacking mods or a combination there of could provide a lower frequency of frustrating in match moment then they'd be used more, at which point we wouldn't be dealing with this problem because not only would duel tanking be less common, it wouldn't matter if someone made that fittings choice because they'd be giving up something of equal value.
On the other hand if we force the symptom to go away, rather than address the problem, all we've done (presuming the stick succeeds in beating people into new play patterns) is increased average frustration in match and thus decreased the fun of what is, end of the day, a game
As to the quote within the quote more directly my responses are
- I'm already looking at that, when I say equipment I mean I'm looking at all of it
- If heavies need some love we can always give it to them, honestly having a wider range of shield options and more support options seems like it'll directly impact their game play but other things can be tuned if/as needed
- Yes there are ways to buff shield tanking further, and to an extent it is presumed that will be called for. Looking at depleted delays as well as shield mod offerings being next up to bat.
As ever each CPM holds their own views, but also gathers feedback, the other value of threads like this is that regardless of what proposal is passed along to the Devs these threads are in the open forums where everyone can consider the ideas and make their own assessments and the Devs read a whole lot more than they comment AFAIK (look at how often I commented on Rattati's Speed to eHP ratio thread vs his own posts, but he was reading that thread no question) and in the final analysis it is the Dev team which makes these choices, we - the player base - give input that then can become part of the process but the final choice is always down to the Devs.
Thanks for your continued participation, and remember if I or any of my colleges seem argumentative at times, well, we argue with each other too so aside from debating us on topics which are under NDA being in this thread is pretty much like being in a CPM meeting. We're pretty unfiltered as a group, what you see is what you get 
Cheers,
Cross
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 01:04:00 -
[213] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:
im also wondering about the overall design here. regarding caldari suits mostly, their slower suits need more regen than the more mobile suits
True, the Speed to eHP ratio should be maintained, slower suits need more relative net eHP than faster suits as has already been established by CCP Rattati and is a design intent proposals moving forward need to work within.
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
|
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 01:09:00 -
[214] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote: "King HP" and "Spin and win" are both (1) anecdotal, (2) deliberately inflammatory and (3) irrelevant.
1. False 2. False 3. False Because you say so? What does the market data say? What does PC usage say? What does Rattati say? CCP Rattati wrote:King HP is in for a surprise ...
market data without any other comparative data means... Nothing.
PC usage is, as I understand it, shifting to point-blank speed meta rather than heavy HP meta. I am informed that sentinels are getting their asses pasted left and right. King HP indeed.
And Rattati? I'll ask.
Your rattati quote is cute, so where is the quote from, so I can read the full context?
Your snippet means jack.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 01:20:00 -
[215] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Meh, maybe it will all be fine.
If scouts need buffing CCP could always role back some of the cloak nerfs a bit.
If sentinels need buffing CCP could always role back some of the HMG nerfs a bit.
If shield tanking needs more of a buff, there are ways.
Maybe people won't dual tank. dual tanking will always be a thing unless doing so is directly penalized. I've suggested doing so, but I'm outvoted.
False. Dual taking is not penalized in Eve, it's just pointless to do so since you have all kinds of mods that make killing things easier. A dual tanked ship will lose to a normal ship because it either A) doesn do as much damage as the normal ship or B) doesn't apply damage as well as the normal ship. The problem with Dust is there is no way to have things like tracking disruptors or target painters, so HP is almost always the betterchoice. In the case of Caldari, dual tanking is the only way to survive.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.21 01:22:00 -
[216] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote: "King HP" and "Spin and win" are both (1) anecdotal, (2) deliberately inflammatory and (3) irrelevant.
1. False 2. False 3. False Because you say so? What does the market data say? What does PC usage say? What does Rattati say? CCP Rattati wrote:King HP is in for a surprise ... market data without any other comparative data means... Nothing. PC usage is, as I understand it, shifting to point-blank speed meta rather than heavy HP meta. I am informed that sentinels are getting their asses pasted left and right. And Rattati? I'll ask. Your rattati quote is cute, so where is the quote from, so I can read the full context? Your snippet means jack.
Of course , Breakin. Everyone else's observations, experiences and concerns can be freely dismissed. Market data doesn't matter; frankly, it means nothing. Nothing matters except for your own anecdotal experience and observations because (A) you aren't a non-competitive player performing poorly enough to fluctuate between Hi and Lo Mu queues, (B) you know exactly what's going on with competitive meta because you participate in PC regularly and (C) you know all about every suit and every playstyle because you run them all regularly and run them well; you're an expert in all things, which is why you do not bounce back-and-forth between Hi and Lo Mu queue.
Your anecdotal observations count, and only your anecdotal observations count. Am I getting this right?
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2492622#post2492622 |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 01:30:00 -
[217] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:
Yes there are ways to buff shield tanking further, and to an extent it is presumed that will be called for. Looking at depleted delays as well as shield mod offerings being next up to bat.
[/list]
If you are looking at depleted delays may I just state that I am strongly of the opinion that depleted delays should simply last a fixed percentage longer that non-depleted delays.
It's simple. It makes sense. It results in an interesting gameplay mechanic where you try not to let your shields become completely depleted. This also reduces the value of armour on your shield tanking fit, as the goal is to not get into armour in the first place, helping to distinguish between tanking styles and rewarding fits that contain synergy. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 01:31:00 -
[218] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Of course , Breakin. Everyone else's observations, experiences and concerns can be freely dismissed. Market data doesn't matter; frankly, it means nothing. Nothing matters except for your own anecdotal experience and observations because (A) you aren't a non-competitive player performing poorly enough to fluctuate between Hi and Lo Mu queues, (B) you know exactly what's going on with competitive meta because you participate in PC regularly and (C) you know all about every suit and every playstyle because you run them all regularly and run them well; you're an expert in all things, which is why you do not bounce back-and-forth between Hi and Lo Mu queue. Your anecdotal observations count, and only your anecdotal observations count. Am I getting this right? https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2492622#post2492622
Bravo adipem.
I'm not going to shut up.
Ever.
But Carry on Adipem Ad Hominem
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
|
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 01:33:00 -
[219] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Of course , Breakin. Everyone else's observations, experiences and concerns can be freely dismissed. Market data doesn't matter; frankly, it means nothing. Nothing matters except for your own anecdotal experience and observations because (A) you aren't a non-competitive player performing poorly enough to fluctuate between Hi and Lo Mu queues, (B) you know exactly what's going on with competitive meta because you participate in PC regularly and (C) you know all about every suit and every playstyle because you run them all regularly and run them well; you're an expert in all things, which is why you do not bounce back-and-forth between Hi and Lo Mu queue. Your anecdotal observations count, and only your anecdotal observations count. Am I getting this right? https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2492622#post2492622 Bravo adipem. I'm not going to shut up. Ever. But Carry on Adipem Ad Hominem
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2492622#post2492622
^ Click the link and read the post. It is the one you requested. How do you think Vitantur predicted the future with such precision? Could it be that other people with views different from your own might be right from time to time?
I don't want you to shut up, Breakin. Yours is a necessary part of a larger process. Do keep being passionately wrong. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 01:41:00 -
[220] - Quote
Right.
Data from a near-year-old post from last december.
Bravo.
Done with you adipem, You don't entertain a dissenting opinion, ever, for any reason. I see no reason to do so with you or entertain your conversation further.
Later.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
|
|
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 01:55:00 -
[221] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Right.
Data from a near-year-old post from last december.
Bravo.
Done with you adipem, You don't entertain a dissenting opinion, ever, for any reason. I see no reason to do so with you or entertain your conversation further.
Later.
That's the post you asked for, Breakin. It is the context you requested behind Rattati citing "King HP" ... if you read it, you'd see that his quote appears in the very next post. By "in for a surprise", do you think Rattati might have been referring to the Speed-HP Curve which would come a few months later?
The Speed-HP Curve which was implemented, as it were, in spite of Aeon's repeated and passionate protests. The Speed-HP Curve which ended up working quite well, in direct contradiction to Aeon's assessments.
Anyone keeping score will tell you Aeon is wrong far more often than he is right when it comes to anything about balance. Call it Ad Hominem if you'd like, but this is a clearly documented pattern. That, of course, does not mean we should dismiss Aeon's ideas out-of-hand. He means well (or at least I believe he means well) and sometimes he has good ideas.
And for the record, I don't dismiss opinions I believe to be wrong; I challenge them. Is there something inherently wrong with debate? Is it not a fundamental function of the Forums to facilitate debate? |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 02:06:00 -
[222] - Quote
I have never seen you challenge an idea without attacking the character of the person with the idea.
Your attempts at character assassination aren't seen in a positive light.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.21 02:18:00 -
[223] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:1. I have never seen you challenge an idea without attacking the character of the person with the idea.
2. Your attempts at character assassination aren't seen in a positive light.
1. Then you aren't paying close enough attention. Visit the Triage Ward, for instance, and check out my exchanges with El Operator or Cross on Active Scans. Or read through a sample of pages from the Barbershop; we routinely challenge (often vigorously) one other's observations, suggestions, opinions and ideas. As it's fresh on the mind, you can also reread the Speed-HP Curve thread. If you need more examples, let me know. They aren't hard to find.
2. Are yours? I can't count the number of times you've dismissed my accurate and factual feedback with nonsense like "scout master race". It is what you've attempted to do in this very thread twice now (or is it three times?) and is precisely what brought about the conversation at hand. "Breakin's anecdotal experience counts; others' does not. Breakin can call into question player bias; others cannot. Breakin can express opinion as to who is right and who is wrong; others should not. Breakin can make claims about other player's post histories; others better not.
Would it be seen in a positive or negative light if I pointed out a rather fascinating and well-developed double standard?
PS: I could be wrong, but I believe we've derailed the thread, Mr. CPM. I'm ready to get back on topic whenever you are. |
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 03:00:00 -
[224] - Quote
Gents I can debate you both, I have and I'm sure I will again, but I'm going to be a bit firm in this instance and say it's time to go back on topic now rather than later, fair?
Honestly in many ways there seem to be only minor differences in view on this subject - considering that as stated near the start of the thread the numbers were meant as placeholders not final values - mods would be the next layer.
Fair warning to all concerned (warning? maybe just notice) I'm going to try to start fighting my way through massive thing that is equipment soon, and collage is still a thing, so I may be much less active on the next step of the shield rework.
The key aspect however is the point I've been reiterating since the Speed to eHP curve, have a universal method, apply it, scale as needed.
And remember, no play survives first contact
Cheers,
Cross
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 03:11:00 -
[225] - Quote
You're all a bunch of scrubs.
Carry on.
Open-Beta Vet.
CAPCRO Nomad.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
|
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 04:12:00 -
[226] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:You're all a bunch of scrubs.
Carry on.
... Agreed.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
|
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
4
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 04:27:00 -
[227] - Quote
The problem with making a post in these threads is that guys only want solutions based on numbers and theory. No one seems to care about any thing based on practice. It's like the doctor that treats his patients based solely on lab results without talking to the patient or physical examinations.
All that I'm reading is buff shield regen and delay, etc. But none of that will solve the shield tanking problem as long as the counter to shield suits is so "effective". I have shield fits with regens under 2 secs and 40hp+ on the recharge...lol, how much more do I need, seriously? And these suits won't be able to stand against an amarr or gal suit with damaged modded scrambler rifles and more tank at ANY distance.
Right now, we can build shield suits with great regen...buffing the delay and recharge will not solve the problem. I don't care if the delay is down to 0, shield tanking will still not be viable.
"Bring out mass drivers & jump around goddamit"
Check RND out here
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Devadander
Woodgrain Atari
703
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 07:27:00 -
[228] - Quote
After reading entire thread three times now, gazing at the graphs and sheets, I have to ask?
Do any of the CPM actually run shield?
(I know cross runs shield a little)
Not inflammatory, actual question.
And by run shields I mean you may have two armor fits in a list of 30 and plates on maybe one of the shield fits?
Run a gunni mostly because, caldari, etc.
Should be: cal - min - ama - gal
Sentinel - scout - assault - commando - logi
And I swear to krin, if the first step drops and I see a single ama or gal start to regen shield in a 1v1 due to a second behind cover I'll burn this mother down.
Not trying to get us all riled up again, trying to give you advice from a 24/7 shieldmeister.
Gal and ama get the buffer, OK, after its gone they should not regen until out of conflict or respawn.
Dual tank should be a joke for cal and gal, easy for min, and stackable but not regen-y for ama. Armor on a cal suit and shield on a gal suit should be do-able, but stupid.
Tbh though... The thing that has got my dander up again is the fact that gal has all them shiny low slots. So if we tweak gal shield stats in a positive way, they can exploit any positive changes to regulators.
I foresee:
x3 rechargers
x3 regulators
x2 reps
RR
Core
I win button.
In essence making the gal a better cal than the cal.
Commando coming before assault is a mistake as well.
They get two light weapons yes, but are a support role. Calmando has enough slots and base ehp to be quite competitive coming second to assault regen wise.
And with damage stopping shield regen we have to break the mold a little for calsent. It needs to have the best of both worlds. When there is a cal heavy AI weapon and it has good range, then we have to choose. But saying it has to choose between 600 with good regen or 900 with one Flux meaning two minutes of regen, is basically saying " no hmg for you, just go chase medium suits, or forge camp"
I'm not thinking as massive changes as have been suggested either. A point here, a point there. Maybe a few for mando as its the worst tanked suit ingame ATM.
Again, not trying to start fires (yet). Just bringing as much relevant shield user concerns to the table as possible to make this as right as we can.
Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå
Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
|
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 08:05:00 -
[229] - Quote
Devander, it goes...
Cal > Min > Gal > Amarr. Aeon just doesn't have them ordered in that manner on the spreadsheet. This is the primary method by which recharge delays are weighted.
The fastest recharge delay goes to the lowest HP within the race, slowest goes to the highest HP. Recharge rate also falls into this range as well.
To recap: This is based off of baseline suit HP and weighted by racial dependency upon shields.
So within the racial bounds, understanding that cal are to be hands down the best and amarr hands down the worst at shield regen...
Scout > Assault > Logistics > Commando > Sentinel
Or in layman's terms:
Skinny > Middleweight > Fatty
This proposal only accounts for recharge rates and base recharge delay.
I am poking at the depleted delays, and the extender tweaks currently.
If I did my rotten work correctly the depleted delays will actually be shorter for shield suits and then push out until the amarr at the back end enjoy longer depleted delays than recharge delays while caldari suits tend to have shorter depleted delays.
Aeon's post is part of the equation.
Once we're done with the baseline stats if they are chosen to use we watch with a magnifying glass, analyze and tweak upward or downward as needed, then look at the other shield modules if need be.
If at that point the shield modules cannot be tweaked fairly, THEN we look at punching armor in the gut.
Just a little.
But making shields competitive should be doable.
Then once we have shields stabilized at a competitive level and the TTK averages in the game are settled, we can begin looking at the oft-misidentified "secondary" module options. I know I'm not happy about precision and range enhancers. High slots have a grand total of what, three useful module types?
Kincats and cardiac regs work great, but those are low slots. High slots are pretty much Damage mods, shields, shield regen. The rest are either niche items or nearly exclusively used by a few scouts (precision mods).
Honestly once we can put the tank imbalance behind us I want to figure out what can be used to increase high slot variety.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
|
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 10:17:00 -
[230] - Quote
I know we are getting off topic here but I don't understand, from a design perspective, how shorter depleted delays than non-depleted can be a good thing. Why would you want to encourage shield tankers to go into armour? The current method makes for much better gameplay.
And just a correction on precision mods. You are more likely to find them on a logi than a scout, where they are very effective. I also have an assault fitted with them, though I doubt that's common. |
|
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Devadander
Woodgrain Atari
703
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 12:01:00 -
[231] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Devander, it goes...
Cal > Min > Gal > Amarr. Aeon just doesn't have them ordered in that manner on the spreadsheet. This is the primary method by which recharge delays are weighted.
The fastest recharge delay goes to the lowest HP within the race, slowest goes to the highest HP. Recharge rate also falls into this range as well.
To recap: This is based off of baseline suit HP and weighted by racial dependency upon shields.
So within the racial bounds, understanding that cal are to be hands down the best and amarr hands down the worst at shield regen...
Scout > Assault > Logistics > Commando > Sentinel
Or in layman's terms:
Skinny > Middleweight > Fatty
This proposal only accounts for recharge rates and base recharge delay.
I am poking at the depleted delays, and the extender tweaks currently.
If I did my rotten work correctly the depleted delays will actually be shorter for shield suits and then push out until the amarr at the back end enjoy longer depleted delays than recharge delays while caldari suits tend to have shorter depleted delays.
Aeon's post is part of the equation.
Once we're done with the baseline stats if they are chosen to use we watch with a magnifying glass, analyze and tweak upward or downward as needed, then look at the other shield modules if need be.
If at that point the shield modules cannot be tweaked fairly, THEN we look at punching armor in the gut.
Just a little.
But making shields competitive should be doable.
Then once we have shields stabilized at a competitive level and the TTK averages in the game are settled, we can begin looking at the oft-misidentified "secondary" module options. I know I'm not happy about precision and range enhancers. High slots have a grand total of what, three useful module types?
Kincats and cardiac regs work great, but those are low slots. High slots are pretty much Damage mods, shields, shield regen. The rest are either niche items or nearly exclusively used by a few scouts (precision mods).
Honestly once we can put the tank imbalance behind us I want to figure out what can be used to increase high slot variety.
Will the base shield amounts be altered? Specifically, the sentinel? With only one low available, how can it be last and be competitive?
Again I only ask because this is my all day every day. I've already lost my two oldest friends to caldari being easy bait...
Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå
Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
|
DeathwindRising
Titans of Phoenix
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 12:56:00 -
[232] - Quote
Devadander wrote:To clarify: We have indeed seen wonders suggested in the past that went stale within weeks.
I can see where this leads, and its glorious.
But, the steam can't stop once this starts rolling. This isn't something that can be drug out over a year and expect to have any shield players left. The initial change will leave us balanced... but out-supported. Things have to move quickly.
On that note, the more we buck and argue, the longer it will take. See the big picture and you will be on board.
Nobody runs more shield fits than me, sorry for all the heat. o7
lies lol.
ive run shield fits since the beginning of time!! |
Devadander
Woodgrain Atari
703
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 13:27:00 -
[233] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Devadander wrote:To clarify: We have indeed seen wonders suggested in the past that went stale within weeks.
I can see where this leads, and its glorious.
But, the steam can't stop once this starts rolling. This isn't something that can be drug out over a year and expect to have any shield players left. The initial change will leave us balanced... but out-supported. Things have to move quickly.
On that note, the more we buck and argue, the longer it will take. See the big picture and you will be on board.
Nobody runs more shield fits than me, sorry for all the heat. o7 lies lol. ive run shield fits since the beginning of time!!
Lol we must be tied then.
Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå
Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
|
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 13:28:00 -
[234] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:
Then once we have shields stabilized at a competitive level and the TTK averages in the game are settled, we can begin looking at the oft-misidentified "secondary" module options. I know I'm not happy about precision and range enhancers. High slots have a grand total of what, three useful module types?
Kincats and cardiac regs work great, but those are low slots. High slots are pretty much Damage mods, shields, shield regen. The rest are either niche items or nearly exclusively used by a few scouts (precision mods).
Honestly once we can put the tank imbalance behind us I want to figure out what can be used to increase high slot variety.
FYI: Usage rates over the past year or so would suggest that low-slot variety is in need of more attention than high-slot variety. Per dust.thang.dk's "tryhardmeter" ...
Frequently Used, Non-HP Related High-Slot Modules
1. Damage Amps
2. Myofibs
3. Precision Enhancers
Frequently Used, Non-HP Related Low-Slot Modules
1. KinCats
Infrequently used, Non-HP Related Low-Slot Modules
1. Codebreakers
2. CardRegs
3. Dampeners
4. Range Amplifiers
5. CPU Upgrade
Infrequently used, Non-HP Related High-Slot Modules
1. PG Upgrade
* Frequently Used = Consistently Ranked in Top 10 (by module sales)
* Infrequently Used = Not Ranked in Top 10
Prediction:
Pre-Shield Buff Meta
HP > All Else
Post-Shield Buff Meta
HP >> All Else |
DeathwindRising
Titans of Phoenix
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 13:30:00 -
[235] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Devander, it goes...
Cal > Min > Gal > Amarr. Aeon just doesn't have them ordered in that manner on the spreadsheet. This is the primary method by which recharge delays are weighted.
The fastest recharge delay goes to the lowest HP within the race, slowest goes to the highest HP. Recharge rate also falls into this range as well.
To recap: This is based off of baseline suit HP and weighted by racial dependency upon shields.
So within the racial bounds, understanding that cal are to be hands down the best and amarr hands down the worst at shield regen...
Scout > Assault > Logistics > Commando > Sentinel
Or in layman's terms:
Skinny > Middleweight > Fatty
This proposal only accounts for recharge rates and base recharge delay.
I am poking at the depleted delays, and the extender tweaks currently.
If I did my rotten work correctly the depleted delays will actually be shorter for shield suits and then push out until the amarr at the back end enjoy longer depleted delays than recharge delays while caldari suits tend to have shorter depleted delays.
Aeon's post is part of the equation.
Once we're done with the baseline stats if they are chosen to use we watch with a magnifying glass, analyze and tweak upward or downward as needed, then look at the other shield modules if need be.
If at that point the shield modules cannot be tweaked fairly, THEN we look at punching armor in the gut.
Just a little.
But making shields competitive should be doable.
Then once we have shields stabilized at a competitive level and the TTK averages in the game are settled, we can begin looking at the oft-misidentified "secondary" module options. I know I'm not happy about precision and range enhancers. High slots have a grand total of what, three useful module types?
Kincats and cardiac regs work great, but those are low slots. High slots are pretty much Damage mods, shields, shield regen. The rest are either niche items or nearly exclusively used by a few scouts (precision mods).
Honestly once we can put the tank imbalance behind us I want to figure out what can be used to increase high slot variety.
faster regen on lower HP suits? why? when we rebalanced the armor regen rates, the gal scout had the best. then we all found out how that actually turned out in the field, and nerfed it.
armor regen rate used to follow a design where the commando had the best regen, the scout had the worst, the logi had better regen than the assault, and the sentinel had the best HP.
but that design has changed slightly in past months, the reality of things hasnt. armor sentinels are slow but can receive remote reps. this means that shield sentinels would need higher than normal regen also, UNLESS we introduce shield support options. but its never been confirmed that those options are ever going to come out.
the reason i say that slower shield suits need more regen is because theres no shield counter to the armor sentinel being repped.
and like devander said... ill be pretty pissed if armor suits start to regen shields viably compared to caldari suits. its also pretty clear that by suggesting depleted shield delays be shorter than normal delays, that we are encouraging shield tankers to treat their shields as some kind of buffer similar to how armor tankers use shields. If your shields drop to zero on a shield suit, you screwed up. there shouldnt be any built in hand holding. the biggest issue for most people running shield suits is that they try to fit them like armor suits and run them the same way. theres a big difference between armor and shield tanking |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 13:33:00 -
[236] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:
faster regen on lower HP suits? why? when we rebalanced the armor regen rates, the gal scout had the best. then we all found out how that actually turned out in the field, and nerfed it.
Quick fact check:
The GalScout's regen had little if anything to do with it being OP/FoTM following 1.8.
Assault Lite was able to pack on the HP and still beat scans thanks to cloak's active damp bonus. This was pre-Assault buff, so Assault Lite HP levels weren't far removed from Assault. Also, Scout passive scans were much stronger pre-falloff and they remained strong even while cloaked (cloakblind came later). Further, cloak operation was much different then; not only did it afford a higher damp bonus, but it also had higher reserves and could be toggled on/off near instantly, which brought about fire-from-cloak problems.
In a nutshell, Assault Lite was able to pull-off Assault-like HP levels and still beat scans, while also benefiting from superior mobility & wiggle, far better passives and 2 EQ slots. Not to mention, fire-from-cloak. There were lots of problems w/Assault Lite. Regen might've been among them, but it certainly wasn't a big one. |
zzZaXxx
XxAMBUSH FTWxX
769
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 13:44:00 -
[237] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:The problem with making a post in these threads is that guys only want solutions based on numbers and theory. No one seems to care about any thing based on practice. It's like the doctor that treats his patients based solely on lab results without talking to the patient or physical examinations.
All that I'm reading is buff shield regen and delay, etc. But none of that will solve the shield tanking problem as long as the counter to shield suits is so "effective". I have shield fits with regens under 2 secs and 40hp+ on the recharge...lol, how much more do I need, seriously? And these suits won't be able to stand against an amarr or gal suit with damaged modded scrambler rifles and more tank at ANY distance.
Right now, we can build shield suits with great regen...buffing the delay and recharge will not solve the problem. I don't care if the delay is down to 0, shield tanking will still not be viable.
Yes, shields will still get destroyed by laser weapons. I've always said that laser damage profile should be changed to +15/-15.
And if you're focusing on your shield tank you sacrifice damage mods. Damage mods should be fittable to low slots as well as high slots. Problem solved.
On the positive side, there's a lot of assault rail fire in Dust, and a fair amount of combat/assault combat fire. The proposed changes would make shields hold up much better against them. And shield users will be a bit more likely to survive, if not win, exchanges with laser weapon users. |
DeathwindRising
Titans of Phoenix
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 14:00:00 -
[238] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:
faster regen on lower HP suits? why? when we rebalanced the armor regen rates, the gal scout had the best. then we all found out how that actually turned out in the field, and nerfed it.
Quick fact check: The GalScout's regen had little if anything to do with it being OP/FoTM following 1.8. Assault Lite was able to pack on the HP and still beat scans thanks to cloak's active damp bonus. This was pre-Assault buff, so Assault Lite HP levels weren't far removed from Assault. Also, Scout passive scans were much stronger pre-falloff and they remained strong even while cloaked (cloakblind came later). Further, cloak operation was much different then; not only did it afford a higher damp bonus, but it also had higher reserves and could be toggled on/off near instantly, which brought about fire-from-cloak problems. In a nutshell, Assault Lite was able to pull-off Assault-like HP levels and still beat scans, while also benefiting from superior mobility & wiggle, far better passives and 2 EQ slots. Not to mention, fire-from-cloak. There were lots of problems w/Assault Lite. Regen might've been among them, but it certainly wasn't a big one.
the arguement aginst the regen was that it was high enough that you didnt need a rep mod, and so you could simply stack plates which led to the HP being much higher than desired. when you add everything else in it just painted a picture of this OP suit. I remember the regen rate was one of the first things they changed on the suit though before all the other stuff. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 14:12:00 -
[239] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:
faster regen on lower HP suits? why? when we rebalanced the armor regen rates, the gal scout had the best. then we all found out how that actually turned out in the field, and nerfed it.
Quick fact check: The GalScout's regen had little if anything to do with it being OP/FoTM following 1.8. Assault Lite was able to pack on the HP and still beat scans thanks to cloak's active damp bonus. This was pre-Assault buff, so Assault Lite HP levels weren't far removed from Assault. Also, Scout passive scans were much stronger pre-falloff and they remained strong even while cloaked (cloakblind came later). Further, cloak operation was much different then; not only did it afford a higher damp bonus, but it also had higher reserves and could be toggled on/off near instantly, which brought about fire-from-cloak problems. In a nutshell, Assault Lite was able to pull-off Assault-like HP levels and still beat scans, while also benefiting from superior mobility & wiggle, far better passives and 2 EQ slots. Not to mention, fire-from-cloak. There were lots of problems w/Assault Lite. Regen might've been among them, but it certainly wasn't a big one. the arguement aginst the regen was that it was high enough that you didnt need a rep mod, and so you could simply stack plates which led to the HP being much higher than desired. when you add everything else in it just painted a picture of this OP suit. I remember the regen rate was one of the first things they changed on the suit though before all the other stuff.
I don't recall when regen was tuned; I'll have to find it.
Meanwhile, here's the first round of scout/cloak nerfs in HF Alpha. Also a few relevant plate changes:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2173250#post2173250
Rattati: Thinkin' about Biotic Efficacy for AM Scouts as early as Alpha!? 
Edit: Glanced over patchnotes from Alpha, Bravo and Charlie. Also 1.1. Didn't see it. I believe you're right though. Regen was initially higher, and I too believe it was nerfed early on. Still stand by my earlier points though; GalScout regen was small potatoes compared to other major factors which brought about the Scoutocolypse. Which is why the Scoutocolypse persisted after regen was reduced. |
zzZaXxx
XxAMBUSH FTWxX
769
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 15:30:00 -
[240] - Quote
We need to face the hard truth that the way shields regenerate just doesn't work. If EVE only allowed passive shield tanking the game would have failed a long time ago. Passive regen shields with delays and mods that buff percentages will NEVER balance with armor reps. You can buff shield regen but you'll never be able to normalize regen as a whole. It's comparing apples and hamburgers.
Passive shield regen needs to be massively nerfed and shield rechargers need to become shield boosters. Shield regulators could then buff passive regen and delay. Armor and shields would still be very different from each other in damage resistances, EHP, and mobility.
The main problem is with the delay. It just introduces too many variables. Wether you get lit into or just pinged with a stray shot you have to wait out your delay. Paying attention to the delay and accounting for all the variables is very distracting and takes away from focus on who's shooting at you/who you're shooting at. It gets you killed.
Just normalize HP regen across the board with shield and armor repair modules doing the same thing. It's the only way to achieve balance. As I said, there will still be plenty of differences between the two. |
|
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 15:42:00 -
[241] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:I know we are getting off topic here but I don't understand, from a design perspective, how shorter depleted delays than non-depleted can be a good thing. Why would you want to encourage shield tankers to go into armour? The current method makes for much better gameplay.
And just a correction on precision mods. You are more likely to find them on a logi than a scout, where they are very effective. I also have an assault fitted with them, though I doubt that's common.
It's not encouragement to go into armor. It's a higher likelihood of survival if you escape. Waitting 6-8 seconds if yo manage to survive being put into armor (unlikely) is an eternity.
And i forgot about the precision logi. I stand corrected.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
|
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 15:45:00 -
[242] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:
faster regen on lower HP suits? why? when we rebalanced the armor regen rates, the gal scout had the best. then we all found out how that actually turned out in the field, and nerfed it.
Because right now scouts have the highest regen at 50 in the case of caldari. Things are being normalized between scout 50 and sent 30 for now.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
|
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 15:54:00 -
[243] - Quote
Devadander wrote:
Will the base shield amounts be altered? Specifically, the sentinel? With only one low available, how can it be last and be competitive?
Again I only ask because this is my all day every day. I've already lost my two oldest friends to caldari being easy bait...
Calsent isn't being changed. It's shield regen stats are staying as they are now.
Currently a calsent with a low slslot regulator can get about a half secondd depleted delay and under 2 sec recharge delay. That's not changing.
So "worst regen stats" are actually taking the current best and using them as a baseline. Calsents will retain the best depleted delay. The only reason IMHO that the calsent is even playable right now is because it recovers so fast after eating damage.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
|
Devadander
Woodgrain Atari
703
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 16:29:00 -
[244] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Devadander wrote:
Will the base shield amounts be altered? Specifically, the sentinel? With only one low available, how can it be last and be competitive?
Again I only ask because this is my all day every day. I've already lost my two oldest friends to caldari being easy bait...
Calsent isn't being changed. It's shield regen stats are staying as they are now. Currently a calsent with a low slslot regulator can get about a half secondd depleted delay and under 2 sec recharge delay. That's not changing. So "worst regen stats" are actually taking the current best and using them as a baseline. Calsents will retain the best depleted delay. The only reason IMHO that the calsent is even playable right now is because it recovers so fast after eating damage.
Sounds good, but we should look at 50-100 extra shield for sent for base stats.
Edit: basically want to break 1000 shield with maxed maxes. Idc if its 1001.3.
Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå
Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
|
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 16:32:00 -
[245] - Quote
I'm also working on extender additions
If we consider the current extender equivalent to ferroscale, I'm building a proposal for a plate and reactive analog.
The reactive analog would be the "no penalty" extender.
Basic design philosophy is the closer you push towards armor hp the worse your base recovery rates should be.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
|
Devadander
Woodgrain Atari
703
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 16:33:00 -
[246] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:I'm also working on extender additions
If we consider the current extender equivalent to ferroscale, I'm building a proposal for a plate and reactive analog.
The reactive analog would be the "no penalty" extender.
Very nice.
Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå
Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
|
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 16:33:00 -
[247] - Quote
Devadander wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Devadander wrote:
Will the base shield amounts be altered? Specifically, the sentinel? With only one low available, how can it be last and be competitive?
Again I only ask because this is my all day every day. I've already lost my two oldest friends to caldari being easy bait...
Calsent isn't being changed. It's shield regen stats are staying as they are now. Currently a calsent with a low slslot regulator can get about a half secondd depleted delay and under 2 sec recharge delay. That's not changing. So "worst regen stats" are actually taking the current best and using them as a baseline. Calsents will retain the best depleted delay. The only reason IMHO that the calsent is even playable right now is because it recovers so fast after eating damage. Sounds good.
Probably not. Shield Stat strength is relative. If you hold one unit constant and buff everything else, the relative strength of the unit held constant is lessened.
Nothing inherently wrong with a standardized framework, but buffing shield stat performance of armor tankers won't work out to anyone's advantage except for armor tankers.
I understand that "Step 2" will involve improving shield modules, which will help shield tankers, but make no mistake. Aeon's angling for a buff for armor tankers (unless he has since changed his mind).
What I expect we'll end up is more HP Module utilization, less loadout variety, a widening of the Assault performance/usage gap and best-in-class (potentially OP/FoTM) Dual Tankers. |
Asad Thahab-Jabal
Incorruptibles
90
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Posted - 2015.09.21 16:35:00 -
[248] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:I'm also working on extender additions
If we consider the current extender equivalent to ferroscale, I'm building a proposal for a plate and reactive analog.
The reactive analog would be the "no penalty" extender. Like so?
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.09.21 16:38:00 -
[249] - Quote
This is a multi-angle process.
Once shields are unscrewed, the next tricks are AV and utility mods.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.09.21 16:39:00 -
[250] - Quote
Asad Thahab-Jabal wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:I'm also working on extender additions
If we consider the current extender equivalent to ferroscale, I'm building a proposal for a plate and reactive analog.
The reactive analog would be the "no penalty" extender. Like so?
Pretty much
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.21 16:41:00 -
[251] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:I know we are getting off topic here but I don't understand, from a design perspective, how shorter depleted delays than non-depleted can be a good thing. Why would you want to encourage shield tankers to go into armour? The current method makes for much better gameplay. It's not encouragement to go into armor. It's a higher likelihood of survival if you escape. Waitting 6-8 seconds if yo manage to survive being put into armor (unlikely) is an eternity. I can see it being ok, but I think it takes away from the gameplay of shield tanking. It takes skill to take cover before depleting you shield. You should be rewarded for this with faster recovery, as is the case now.
Yes you will survive more with lower depleted delay, but I think if shield tankers are dying too much there are better ways to buff them than dumbing down the gameplay.
Most well fitted shield tankers don't have to wait 6-8 seconds when depleted. It's more like 3 - 4 seconds.
Reducing depleted delays even further than normal delays just reduces the value of regulators even more.
I think people should be rewarded more for doing shield tanking well, not punished less for doing it badly. By this I mean, if you fit a load of regen mods on your Caldari assault and successfully take cover at the right times you should be rewarded. Whereas if you don't bother with regen and run around like an armour tanker you should be punished.
Again, it could well work, it's just not the direction I would go in.
P.S. It doesn't make sense from a lore / common sense perspective. I think the mechanics of Dust are already too opaque. Making things less intuitive is bad.
P.P.S. Just, why? |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.09.21 16:47:00 -
[252] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:.
I understand that "Step 2" will involve improving shield modules, which will help shield tankers, but make no mistake. Aeon's angling for a buff for armor tankers, unless he has since changed his mind.
.
This is where you are entertainingly wrong. Tell ya what. If you excise this rediculous premise from your head I'll lay off the "scout master race" taunting.
you're letting your distaste for aeon cloud your perception of intent.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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zzZaXxx
XxAMBUSH FTWxX
769
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Posted - 2015.09.21 16:49:00 -
[253] - Quote
Yo CPM! What are your thoughts on allowing damage mods to be placed in low slots as well? Armor tankers get to have the best of both worlds while shield tankers have to choose, and in their low slots they have no choice: regulator and reactives. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.09.21 16:52:00 -
[254] - Quote
zzZaXxx wrote:Yo CPM! What are your thoughts on allowing damage mods to be placed in low slots as well? Armor tankers get to have the best of both worlds while shield tankers have to choose, and in their low slots they have no choice: regulator and reactives.
This is a shield regen thread. Make another thread for that please. Don't knock this one off-topic
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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zzZaXxx
XxAMBUSH FTWxX
769
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Posted - 2015.09.21 16:59:00 -
[255] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:zzZaXxx wrote:Yo CPM! What are your thoughts on allowing damage mods to be placed in low slots as well? Armor tankers get to have the best of both worlds while shield tankers have to choose, and in their low slots they have no choice: regulator and reactives. This is a shield regen thread. Make another thread for that please. Don't knock this one off-topic
Oh ok...but it is relevant to being able to use the mods you need to fully focus on shields without sacrficing damage. |
zzZaXxx
XxAMBUSH FTWxX
769
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Posted - 2015.09.21 17:04:00 -
[256] - Quote
Has Rattati given y'all any feedback on the proposed changes? They seem drastic but drastic change is needed. Better to just implement them and then if shields are OP rein them in. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.21 17:05:00 -
[257] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:.
I understand that "Step 2" will involve improving shield modules, which will help shield tankers, but make no mistake. Aeon's angling for a buff for armor tankers, unless he has since changed his mind.
. This is where you are entertainingly wrong. Tell ya what. If you excise this rediculous premise from your head I'll lay off the "scout master race" taunting. you're letting your distaste for aeon cloud your perception of intent.
http://i.imgur.com/eshWaQK.jpg
^ That's from Aeon. Page 1, Post 1.
Note how the CalScout and CalSent are held constant. Now note the following shield buffs to armor tankers:
GA Sent - Buff to recharge.
GA Scout - Buff to recharge.
GA Logi - Buff to recharge and delay.
GA Commando - Buff to recharge and delay.
GA Assault - Buff to recharge and delay (This one receives the biggest buffs of all. Anyone surprised?).
AM Logi - Buff to recharge and delay.
AM Commando - Buff to recharge and delay.
AM Assault - Buff to recharge and delay.
I'm just looking at the numbers, and it looks to me like Aeon's angling for a buff for Armor Tankers. Unless, as I said above, he has since changed his mind. What am I missing here, Breakin? |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.09.21 17:12:00 -
[258] - Quote
Now go rearrange all of the dropsuits in the following order with in order of lowest HP to highest.
Calscout, calassault, calogi, calmando, calsent
Then do the same for minmatar, then gallente, lastly amarr.
Notice a pattern, or does it need to be spelled out in crayon?
Accusing aeon of angling for an armor buff is disingenuous and deceptive or it's being blind and willfully ignorant. Either way it's an attack on aeon's motives and thus his character.
In any case as long as you cling to that absurdity I have no further use for your input adipem.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.21 17:17:00 -
[259] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Now go rearrange all of the dropsuits in the following order with in order of lowest HP to highest.
Calscout, calassault, calogi, calmando, calsent
Then do the same for minmatar, then gallente, lastly amarr.
Notice a pattern, or does it need to be spelled out in crayon?
Accusing aeon of angling for an armor buff is disingenuous and deceptive or it's being blind and willfully ignorant. Either way it's an attack on aeon's motives and thus his character.
In any case as long as you cling to that absurdity I have no further use for your input adipem.
I'm not being willfully ignorant or disingenuous. I'm looking at his numbers. Explain to me how buffing shield recovery and recharge delay of armor tankers, while holding those values constant for shield tankers, isn't a direct buff to armor tankers? Use the crayon if you need. I'm not following.
Hypothetical: If shield tankers were outperforming all else, would it be wise to increase their base armor and armor regen values, while holding those values for armor tankers constant?
PS: Your double standards are showing again. I'm speaking to the numbers. I'm not calling anyone's character into question. Why are you calling my character (and intelligence, of all things) into question? |
Devadander
Woodgrain Atari
703
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Posted - 2015.09.21 17:28:00 -
[260] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Now go rearrange all of the dropsuits in the following order with in order of lowest HP to highest.
Calscout, calassault, calogi, calmando, calsent
Then do the same for minmatar, then gallente, lastly amarr.
Notice a pattern, or does it need to be spelled out in crayon?
Accusing aeon of angling for an armor buff is disingenuous and deceptive or it's being blind and willfully ignorant. Either way it's an attack on aeon's motives and thus his character.
In any case as long as you cling to that absurdity I have no further use for your input adipem. I'm not being willfully ignorant or disingenuous. I'm looking at his numbers. Explain to me how buffing shield recovery and recharge delay of armor tankers, while holding those values constant for shield tankers, isn't a direct buff to armor tankers? Use the crayon if you need. I'm not following. Hypothetical: If shield tankers were outperforming all else, would it be wise to increase their base armor and armor regen values, while holding those values for armor tankers constant?
That original sheet is what got me heated. If we implement aeons numbers, then improve modules, gal can potentially become a dual tanked beast.
I didn't want to harp on it given our past... But its fairly plain in the numbers that gal gets an un-needed shield boost.
Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå
Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.09.21 17:29:00 -
[261] - Quote
The calscout and calsent are held constant because they are arguably the best performing in the race. They are the baseline. The assault, logi and commando each receive significant buffs to put them in line with the two actual performing suits.
The fact that the calsent is one of the poorest performing sentinels due to raw Hp isn't part of the equation.
Then we take the caldari regen valuse and apply a lesser to minmatar. Also scaling from scout to sentinel.
But then we get to the gallente and amarr. The shields are paper thin and only last a heartbeat under any fire. The idea that it should take more than 4-5 seconds out of combat to BEGIN recovering as some kind of balance metric is amusing.
The only two armor suits with significant shielding are the sentinels. The commando base shields are ok. In neither the case of the sentinel or the commando do they have the slot layout to put forward a shield buffer and regen to be anything but a poor cousin to rhe minmatar but doing so would open low slots for things like damps, range mods (if they didn't suck) and other sundries that might work on an armor suit if they didn't have to completely and utterly sacrifice durability.
The 198 HP of a max core galassault isn't going to be the thing that makes or breaks the suit in a fight. It's ability to rock reps and kincats to get in close faster than you can stop him will.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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zzZaXxx
XxAMBUSH FTWxX
769
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Posted - 2015.09.21 17:31:00 -
[262] - Quote
You bickering trolls have derailed this discussion with your petty personal grievances. Cease and desist. |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.21 17:40:00 -
[263] - Quote
Come on Apidem. Gallente buffs in the OP are very similar to Caldari buffs. Shield buffs hold more value for Caldari suits, and besides, balancing armour and shields wasn't the intention of the thread.
I'm much more worried about significant buffs to assaults and logis, whilst leaving sentinels and scouts where they are. Without doing anything to try to maintain balance.
I think if this goes through how it is, balancing will need to be done. Either by nerfing the suits getting buffed, or buffing the suits being held relatively constant.
I guess it's simple logic. |
zzZaXxx
XxAMBUSH FTWxX
769
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 17:49:00 -
[264] - Quote
Keeping scouts' regen the same while raising the floor with other suits is an indirect nerf to scouts, which are already a bit UP right now. Shields are underperforming across the board, so Cal scout and other scouts' regen/delays should be buffed along with the rest. |
Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
12
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Posted - 2015.09.21 17:55:00 -
[265] - Quote
zzZaXxx wrote:You bickering trolls have derailed this discussion with your petty personal grievances. Cease and desist.
Best post in this thread.
Sgt Kirk's Propaganda Youtube Channel
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.09.21 18:07:00 -
[266] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:zzZaXxx wrote:You bickering trolls have derailed this discussion with your petty personal grievances. Cease and desist. Best post in this thread.
Agreed.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.21 18:24:00 -
[267] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:The calscout and calsent are held constant because they are arguably the best performing in the race. They are the baseline. The assault, logi and commando each receive significant buffs to put them in line with the two actual performing suits.
The fact that the calsent is one of the poorest performing sentinels due to raw Hp isn't part of the equation.
Then we take the caldari regen valuse and apply a lesser to minmatar. Also scaling from scout to sentinel.
But then we get to the gallente and amarr. The shields are paper thin and only last a heartbeat under any fire. The idea that it should take more than 4-5 seconds out of combat to BEGIN recovering as some kind of balance metric is amusing.
The only two armor suits with significant shielding are the sentinels. The commando base shields are ok. In neither the case of the sentinel or the commando do they have the slot layout to put forward a shield buffer and regen to be anything but a poor cousin to rhe minmatar but doing so would open low slots for things like damps, range mods (if they didn't suck) and other sundries that might work on an armor suit if they didn't have to completely and utterly sacrifice durability.
The 198 HP of a max core galassault isn't going to be the thing that makes or breaks the suit in a fight. It's ability to rock reps and kincats to get in close faster than you can stop him will.
Put one shield extender on that GalAssault and he has more hitpoints in his "paperthin" shield reserves than the total base HP of 3 of 4 Scouts. 198HP may mean nothing to a Heavy, but compared to any Scout's base shields or armor, 198HP is a significant sum.
Standardizing shield stats for easier tuning, I get and support. But further entrenching "King HP" by making shield modules more attractive and beneficial for all units raises concerns.
I'm concerned about a widening of the MedFrame performance gap over other frames on account of their higher slot count. I'm concerned about dual tanking becoming a serious problem. I'm concerned about the weakening of what few relative strengths shield users possess over armor users. I'm concerned about impact on performance gap between veterans with significant HP tank and newbros without. I'm concerned about further marginalization of those who dare try to keep up with low or no HP modules.
I (for one) would like to see someday a Dust where glass-cannon loadouts might compete again and where newbros might once again stand a chance if/when they outplay the protos. I don't believe these to be unreasonable or unfair, and it seems to me that we're moving in the opposite direction.
CCP Rattati wrote:... I want to balance the game so all roles and dropsuits can flourish.
Even those who don't stack HP modules?
I'd like to think so, but I'm beginning to wonder if and how we'll ever get there. |
TheD1CK
Dead Man's Game
2
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Posted - 2015.09.21 18:24:00 -
[268] - Quote
Ok...
The old values kick Armour tamkers shield regen in the nuts (as intended?)
Yet this proposal, may reduce delays on almost all AM/GA to equal the current MN Scout ??
In battle..
While I am waiting 80 seconds for my Armour to regen (Min Scout) ...
an Armour suit only has to wait 4-5.5 secs to start shield regen??? whut
So imo the proposed delays will not work, and the proposed recharge ...
Does that really say 35 on GA Assault ??? as in equal to current Min Assault...
On first look I grabbed the popcorn and thought "this Adipem guy is a loon, I like him" but then I went back over things and while I understand you are using CA as the baseline to tweak others.. I think CA should be the baseline to tweak MN..
Using CA as any base in changing Armour suit stats ??
That sounds as logical as triple plate stacking my MN Scout
CA > MN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GA > AM
See you're missing the part in your curve where the Armour suit Shield stats can.. "jump off a cliff"
SOONtm
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.09.21 20:44:00 -
[269] - Quote
Addressing most of the arguments based on "gallente will dual tank"
Unfortunately enterprising individiuals playing all races already do that.
I'm all in favor of lowering the function synergy between armor and shield mods.
But before then shields have to be brought to some semblance of parity. Then the non-HP/regen mods need to be looked at for utility value. If the utility modules in both high and low slots cannot be made more desirable then I think we should look at actively discouraging brickfits via penalties.
I think a better solution would be giving value incentive to engage in racial tank doctrines.
Amarr and caldari are traditionally armor and shield buffer respectively. Gallente and minmatar rely more on recovery and speed.
Incentivizing each race's traditional doctrines should pull some of the "HP mods over all" mindset.
HP mods are appropriate to a point. But none of the fits i use, nor any of the people I speak to find all HP mods to be viable as a fitting style.
Except amarr sentinels but I personally think that's insane.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.21 21:11:00 -
[270] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Repping an extra 10 shields per second under cover is not going to matter much when the player is getting blasted before his shields rep more than one cycle.
We had considered the plausibility of just doing away with shield delay altogether unless it was at zero, meaning you'd only have depleted delay. We decided to go against this because it'd just homogenize it with armor and make it incredibly difficult to find distinction between the two and would be hard to balance extreme fits like Cal Sentinels with stacked Energizers (having upward of 100+hp/s).
We haven't gotten rid of the option yet, just severely unlikely it will be implemented as anything other than a last ditch effort. Too many problems with it.
Vesta Opalus wrote:
"not even close to an armor stacked player with a rep tool"
Then shields still fail in the overall meta. Thats why I was asking about support equipment.
If shield suits cant compete as a team against armor based suits, its still not balanced.
Echoing Cross' sentiment, I'm pretty sure that logic was applied in the AV vs Vehicles bit and look how well that worked out, lol. It's sort of flawed logic to balance one player versus two (because you will have to have two in order for the repair tool to be considered) and if that one guy is over-powering or even balanced with the two, than imagine how powerful he'd be against one.
Devadander wrote:To clarify: We have indeed seen wonders suggested in the past that went stale within weeks.
I can see where this leads, and its glorious.
But, the steam can't stop once this starts rolling. This isn't something that can be drug out over a year and expect to have any shield players left. The initial change will leave us balanced... but out-supported. Things have to move quickly.
On that note, the more we buck and argue, the longer it will take. See the big picture and you will be on board.
Nobody runs more shield fits than me, sorry for all the heat. o7
As Cross mentioned, we have a multi-step plan to completely re-evaluate all of this. We're receiving feedback and making minor changes to what is proposed with Step One (this thread) and have already begun work on Step Two and -some- work on Step Three. Once the ball is rolling, our intent is to continuously work on it until balance has been achieved and the remaining steps rendered moot, being as they are relatively independent of one another.
Who knows, maybe Step One will knock balance where it needs to be. Maybe it'll be Step Two. We might have to go all the way to Step Four or further to achieve balance but know that the CPM -is- working on it and that this was a project given (implied) approval by CCP, so the only barrier is their time.
Breakin Stuff wrote:
dual tanking will always be a thing unless doing so is directly penalized.
I've suggested doing so, but I'm outvoted.
Not so much outvoted as a general air of improving utility to encourage diversity over penalizing dual-tanking. Inherently there's nothing wrong with dual-tanking, but it should generally be assumed that you'll be making too many sacrifices in other areas by doing so. So much so that it becomes less advantageous.
DeathwindRising wrote:
you dont outright penalize dual tanking. you make it impossible to make a viable fit.
meaning the pg and cpu cost of a dual tank would leave you running sidearms with no equipment. that would solve everything naturally.
the easiest way would be a fitting bonus to the modules. either increase fitting cost of the modules or reduce fitting capacity.
im also wondering about the overall design here. regarding caldari suits mostly, their slower suits need more regen than the more mobile suits
S'one way to do it but optimally you want to make other things better than what dual-tanking could offer. Encouraging a player to think, "I could dual-tank but I could also use profile dampeners to enhance my hit-and-run shield tanking", as an example, is the better method, I feel. Cross elaborates on that a bit better than I do but I'm sick atm so.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Malleus Malificorum
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
192
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Posted - 2015.09.21 21:19:00 -
[271] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:.
I understand that "Step 2" will involve improving shield modules, which will help shield tankers, but make no mistake. Aeon's angling for a buff for armor tankers, unless he has since changed his mind.
. This is where you are entertainingly wrong. Tell ya what. If you excise this rediculous premise from your head I'll lay off the "scout master race" taunting. you're letting your distaste for aeon cloud your perception of intent. http://i.imgur.com/eshWaQK.jpg^ That's from Aeon. Page 1, Post 1. Note how the CalScout and CalSent are held constant. Now note the following shield buffs to armor tankers: GA Sent - Buff to recharge. GA Scout - Buff to recharge. GA Logi - Buff to recharge and delay. GA Commando - Buff to recharge and delay. GA Assault - Buff to recharge and delay (This one receives the biggest buffs of all. Anyone surprised?). AM Logi - Buff to recharge and delay. AM Commando - Buff to recharge and delay. AM Assault - Buff to recharge and delay. I'm just looking at the numbers, and it looks to me like Aeon's angling for a buff for Armor Tankers. Unless, as I said above, he has since changed his mind. What am I missing here, Breakin?
"Never attribute to malice, that which is adequately explained by stupidity" - Hanlons Razor.
I mean, it could be out of malice... but given aeons track record of being wrong it's probably just failure to actually comprehend.
Weep not poor children, For life is this way, Murdering beauty and passion.
I bring the light.
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zzZaXxx
XxAMBUSH FTWxX
771
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Posted - 2015.09.21 21:40:00 -
[272] - Quote
http://i.imgur.com/eshWaQK.jpg
Overall I support the above proposed changes. Some suits, such as Min and Gal Assault, seem to benefit too much from these changes, but to really get the payoff they'll have to invest in shield regen mods and make sacrifices elsewhere. And recharge delays are really such an incredible handicap that it's best to err on the side of liberality in buffing shield regen. Anything egregious will be adjusted swiftly, i.e. when the Rail Rifle was nerfed into the underworld.
Having said that, scouts will be nerfed into oblivion by these changes. They're already extremely squishy compared to assaults. If they end up having the same delay and only 5 more regen than assaults there REALLY will be no reason to run scout.
I suggest that the proposed changes be altered to create some distance between scouts and assaults:
- Reduce all scouts' proposed delays by 1 second.
- Increase all scouts' proposed recharge by 5.
So on one end you'd have Caldari Scout with recharge of 55 and delay of 2 seconds. On the other end Amarr Scout with 40 and 3.5.
If everything else is getting a buff to shields then scouts need one too because right now scouts are somewhat UP and without some love it's going to get worse.
Commandos also merit a little more love. It's a mistake to always give them stats that fall just above sentinels in these progressions. The only thing that commandos have in common with sentinels is a larger hitbox, which is an extreme handicap. Otherwise they are slower assaults (major handicap) with less regen that can run two light weapons and no grenades. No grenades is also a handicap in this grenade crazy game. They don't even have more EHP than assaults due to their slot layouts. Their shield regen needs to be brought closer to assaults. My suggestion to accomplish this is simple:
- Give commandos the same regen and delays as logistics
Just following a strict pattern without acknowledging the reality of how scouts and commandos are performing is going to leave them even more in the lurch. We need more scouts and definitely more commandos in the field, but if the above proposed changes go through without tweaks in their favor you'll find that players will be running them even less than they do now. Heed my words CPM!! |
Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.21 21:49:00 -
[273] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Come on Apidem. Gallente buffs in the OP are very similar to Caldari buffs. Shield buffs hold more value for Caldari suits, and besides, balancing armour and shields wasn't the intention of the thread.
I'm much more worried about significant buffs to assaults and logis, whilst leaving sentinels and scouts where they are. Without doing anything to try to maintain balance.
I think if this goes through how it is, balancing will need to be done. Either by nerfing the suits getting buffed, or buffing the suits being held relatively constant.
I guess it's simple logic.
It's all good, lol. I changed up the progression a little bit given all the armor hatred, even if it is a little unfounded given what the foundation is trying to do. Considering how much bickering there is about Myos, and scrambler+damage mod fits, you'd think that dual-tanking would be the last of anyone's concerns!
Malleus Malificorum wrote:
"Never attribute to malice, that which is adequately explained by stupidity" - Hanlons Razor.
I mean, it could be out of malice... but given aeons track record of being wrong it's probably just failure to actually comprehend.
Where were these comments when I single-handedly found out what Burst AR's were under-performing compared to Combat Rifles?
Or when I had multiple videos and spreadsheets showing why and how Myofibrils were broken?
Like, you guys aren't arguing the proposal anymore you're just pissy because it was me that posted it I'll just have Cross post the next one and you guys will be none the wiser! (Oh ****, now there's a level of uncertainty, how can we trust the rest of the CPM if they'll be ghost-writing for Aeon!?)
EDIT: You guys do realize that this is the work of the -ENTIRE- CPM and not just me, right? Or did you forget that the CPM is a council of seven people?
zzZaXxx wrote:http://i.imgur.com/eshWaQK.jpg
Overall I support the above proposed changes. Some suits, such as Min and Gal Assault, seem to benefit too much from these changes, but to really get the payoff they'll have to invest in shield regen mods and make sacrifices elsewhere. And recharge delays are really such an incredible handicap that it's best to err on the side of liberality in buffing shield regen. Anything egregious will be adjusted swiftly, i.e. when the Rail Rifle was nerfed into the underworld.
Having said that, scouts will be nerfed into oblivion by these changes. They're already extremely squishy compared to assaults. If they end up having the same delay and only 5 more regen than assaults there REALLY will be no reason to run scout.
I suggest that the proposed changes be altered to create some distance between scouts and assaults:
- Reduce all scouts' proposed delays by 1 second.
- Increase all scouts' proposed recharge by 5.
So on one end you'd have Caldari Scout with recharge of 55 and delay of 2 seconds. On the other end Amarr Scout with 40 and 3.5.
If everything else is getting a buff to shields then scouts need one too because right now scouts are somewhat UP and without some love it's going to get worse.
Commandos also merit a little more love. It's a mistake to always give them stats that fall just above sentinels in these progressions. The only thing that commandos have in common with sentinels is a larger hitbox, which is an extreme handicap. Otherwise they are slower assaults (major handicap) with less regen that can run two light weapons and no grenades. No grenades is also a handicap in this grenade crazy game. They don't even have more EHP than assaults due to their slot layouts. Their shield regen needs to be brought closer to assaults. My suggestion to accomplish this is simple:
- Give commandos the same regen and delays as logistics
Just following a strict pattern without acknowledging the reality of how scouts and commandos are performing is going to leave them even more in the lurch. We need more scouts and definitely more commandos in the field, but if the above proposed changes go through without tweaks in their favor you'll find that players will be running them even less than they do now. Heed my words CPM!!
Yeah, we'll just ignore the fact that Scouts are inherently faster, have a lower profile, multiple equipment slots, and the unique capability to fit cloaking devices without extreme sacrifices >_>;;;
Can we try not balancing in a vacuum?
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.21 21:56:00 -
[274] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:
False. Dual taking is not penalized in Eve, it's just pointless to do so since you have all kinds of mods that make killing things easier. A dual tanked ship will lose to a normal ship because it either A) doesn do as much damage as the normal ship or B) doesn't apply damage as well as the normal ship. The problem with Dust is there is no way to have things like tracking disruptors or target painters, so HP is almost always the betterchoice. In the case of Caldari, dual tanking is the only way to survive.
Pretty much. Utility modules should be brought up to viability as there are quite a bit that just aren't used. This was the case with Myos before they got jump capability but now those might be a little too powerful, something I've been keeping an eye on and considering how to balance without directly impacting their usability. Can find my posts in other threads regarding this, if interested.
It's almost ironic that Myos are such a good example for combating dual-tanking but are hated so much
Varoth Drac wrote:
If you are looking at depleted delays may I just state that I am strongly of the opinion that depleted delays should simply last a fixed percentage longer that non-depleted delays.
It's simple. It makes sense. It results in an interesting gameplay mechanic where you try not to let your shields become completely depleted. This also reduces the value of armour on your shield tanking fit, as the goal is to not get into armour in the first place, helping to distinguish between tanking styles and rewarding fits that contain synergy.
Perhaps. That was my original intent but after looking at the conundrum of the Caldari Sentinel with it's one second depleted delay I sort of put it on the back-burner and let Breakin take over that side of things. There's a good argument for depleted delays actually being -lower- than normal delays because shield tankers -do- need to get their shields back faster, especially when they have none.
Reason being is because dedicated shield tankers generally have so little armor that by the time they hit zero shield HP they're usually dead anyway, so it probably makes more sense for them to start regenerating shields -faster- when they have none in order to maintain some survivability, having typically lower armor repair rates.
I'll talk it over with the others, see what they think. Sort of a primordial idea at the moment.
Adipem Nothi wrote:
I understand that "Step 2" will involve improving shield modules, which will help shield tankers, but make no mistake. Aeon's angling for a buff for armor tankers (unless he has since changed his mind).
Lol, like racial slurs it doesn't seem often that my name is followed by anything positive, let alone accurate
zzZaXxx wrote:Yo CPM! What are your thoughts on allowing damage mods to be placed in low slots as well? Armor tankers get to have the best of both worlds while shield tankers have to choose, and in their low slots they have no choice: regulator and reactives.
I don't think it's something we've talked about much. Considering that we're pretty unanimous in not providing anything in the game that would further lower the TTK, it's a wonder we haven't advocated for the current damage mods to go the way of the Dodo xD
But then again I'm not really for removing anything in the game when we've lost so much already. Shield Tankers have a lot more choice than they realize, just those choices usually pale in comparison when it comes to usability to the typical cookie-cutter. I personally use biotics and occasionally code breakers, but there's a lot more options in the low slots than in the highs.
S'why I get a little peeved when people start pulling market statistics for the stuff that does go in the highs, lol. S'like, what else are they supposed to use? The variety isn't there to begin with so when people start saying there needs to be more you have to really wonder what they're supposed to do when their only choices are Precision Enhancers, Damage Mods, and Shield Mods.
Adipem Nothi wrote:
I'm just looking at the numbers, and it looks to me like Aeon's angling for a buff for Armor Tankers. Unless, as I said above, he has since changed his mind. What am I missing here, Breakin?
Not my fault CCP decided the original numbers by throwing a dart at the wall O.o;
How does it make sense that a Sentinel, Logistics, and Commando all have the same regen, even on the Gallente/Amarr? Does that follow the Speed to EHP Ratio that we've outlined? Not at all. We've established several pages ago that, even despite the race, the role needs to adhere to that same progression.
Scout > Logistics > Assault > Commando > Sentinel
Obviously Sentinels and Commandos have a higher EHP than Logistics, so why would it make sense that they all have the same regen for any reason other than vindictiveness toward the race/role or... Well, I can't think of another reason.
Yeah, no, this isn't "buff armor" lol, this is adhering to the design principles that have been laid out and established.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.21 21:58:00 -
[275] - Quote
With all those benefits, it's a true wonder that Assaults are outselling Scouts by a margin of 2:1. Or is it 3:1 now? Curious to see how low they can go before CPM2 recognizes that there might be a problem. |
Aeon Amadi
12
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 22:00:00 -
[276] - Quote
At this point many of the same concerns are being echoed by the same people and the thread has run it's course of usefulness. We've made some changes to the proposal presented here and will be shipping it off soon. We'll also be working out step two of the proposal and moving on from there.
Thank you, everyone, for your feedback. See you in the next [CPM Feedback] discussion
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Malleus Malificorum
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
192
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Posted - 2015.09.21 22:44:00 -
[277] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Malleus Malificorum wrote:
"Never attribute to malice, that which is adequately explained by stupidity" - Hanlons Razor.
I mean, it could be out of malice... but given aeons track record of being wrong it's probably just failure to actually comprehend.
Where were these comments when I single-handedly found out what Burst AR's were under-performing compared to Combat Rifles? Or when I had multiple videos and spreadsheets showing why and how Myofibrils were broken? Like, you guys aren't arguing the proposal anymore you're just pissy because it was me that posted it I'll just have Cross post the next one and you guys will be none the wiser! (Oh ****, now there's a level of uncertainty, how can we trust the rest of the CPM if they'll be ghost-writing for Aeon!?)
Being right once or twice doesn't mean you're now infallible, to presume so implies a massive amount of arrogance and ego (which pairs up nicely with the implication that you might actually be incompetent). As the proverb says "Even the sun shines on a dogs ass some days".
But hey, this only happens cause you have a habit of feeding the trolls with your dramatic "leave britney alone" freakouts ("GOD, I'M NEVER POSTING NUMBERS ON THE FORUMS EVER AGAIN, STOP BEING MEAN TO ME")
Also yep, myo's are broken: Which is why you're defending the status quo with them so hard to keep them the way they are right? Cause superman leaps and punching for 700 damage is in no way overpowered and you totally don't run them on a lot of your fits at all, because making use of something that's overpowered totally isn't in poor taste. But whenever someone tries to rationalize with you about it, you refuse to even listen to other viewpoints. Where's the objectivity? I mean you seem to only want people to agree with you and have a flip-out any time they don't.
Weep not poor children, For life is this way, Murdering beauty and passion.
I bring the light.
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.21 23:20:00 -
[278] - Quote
Malleus Malificorum wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Malleus Malificorum wrote:
"Never attribute to malice, that which is adequately explained by stupidity" - Hanlons Razor.
I mean, it could be out of malice... but given aeons track record of being wrong it's probably just failure to actually comprehend.
Where were these comments when I single-handedly found out what Burst AR's were under-performing compared to Combat Rifles? Or when I had multiple videos and spreadsheets showing why and how Myofibrils were broken? Like, you guys aren't arguing the proposal anymore you're just pissy because it was me that posted it I'll just have Cross post the next one and you guys will be none the wiser! (Oh ****, now there's a level of uncertainty, how can we trust the rest of the CPM if they'll be ghost-writing for Aeon!?) Being right once or twice doesn't mean you're now infallible, to presume so implies a massive amount of arrogance and ego (which pairs up nicely with the implication that you might actually be incompetent). As the proverb says "Even the sun shines on a dogs ass some days". But hey, this only happens cause you have a habit of feeding the trolls with your dramatic " leave britney alone" freakouts ("GOD, I'M NEVER POSTING NUMBERS ON THE FORUMS EVER AGAIN, STOP BEING MEAN TO ME") Also yep, myo's are broken: Which is why you're defending the status quo with them so hard to keep them the way they are right? Cause superman leaps and punching for 700 damage is in no way overpowered and you totally don't run them on a lot of your fits at all, because making use of something that's overpowered totally isn't in poor taste. But whenever someone tries to rationalize with you about it, you refuse to even listen to other viewpoints. Where's the objectivity? I mean you seem to only want people to agree with you and have a flip-out any time they don't.
S'why I flipped out so hard in this thread, right?
I could ask you where the objectivity is considering you're, again, questioning who the proposal is coming from (me) as opposed to the proposal itself. Nothing in that post even addresses anything this topic is related to, lol.
I've been wrong about some things in the past. Who hasn't? Who -is- infallible on the forums? I've got hits and misses and I never claimed otherwise but acting like because I was wrong on the things in the past is all the evidence needed to assume that this proposal is wrong..? That's what we call Ad Hominem and it's a -great- way to get yourself in the same boat as some of our other prestigious forum warriors in being completely black listed and dismissed entirely from critical discussions , especially with the CPM which is probably the last people you'd want to do that with
And sure, you can chalk that up to the Chris Crocker response... but who really wants to try and argue about a person (or themselves) and not the position their taking? Probably (and I'm just guessing based on google's definition) a reason why it's a logical fallacy. In this last post you've made you've not once addressed anything about the proposal in this thread, only me and my past standpoints which are certifiably and critically inaccurate considering that I have - recently even - stated that Myos could use some balancing (increased weapon dispersion, separation of jump and melee mods, etc).
So to say that I'm defending the status quo of Myos isn't even accurate, despite not even being related to this thread! And no, I don't run them on a lot of my fits because I only have one fit with them on The only viewpoint I've -ever- not rationalize with, when it comes to Myos, is their outright removal. For obvious reasons.
Now, this is the last time I'm going to respond to this sort of thing. And you can pretend that I'm doing the Chris Crocker thing if you really want to but it isn't going to change that fact. If you would like to discuss what is being outlined here in this thread (that is, specifically, Base Shield Stats Standardization) you can hit me up on Skype under the username 'nomistrav' because this thread is being closed as it has been derailed far too much to be useful anymore. Otherwise, well, have fun playing the marionettest and arguing with yourself :)
EDIT: And I'll say again that before this proposal was even presented to the public it was hashed out by -EVERYONE- on the CPM, so don't even pretend like this is solely my idea because six other people that you, the community, elected had it run past them prior
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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Malleus Malificorum
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
192
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Posted - 2015.09.21 23:30:00 -
[279] - Quote
I like how you just attribute all the legitimate complaints people have had as only being complaints about you. Most of it is reacting to a questionable proposal and only a small portion of the reactance is actually attributed to your motives. As far as my viewpoints on the proposal, it's been summed up relatively adequately by enough other people that most of what I have to do here is attempt to correct your belief that people are reacting to you rather than to a questionable proposal.
In fact your false attributions tend to be the reason why people react to you, rather than to your proposals. It's rather hard to discuss something with a person who is being irrational / in denial ("they didn't like it because they don't like me!" instead of "they didn't like it because they didn't like it, also they said it was stupid" - and thus we get to "I am invested in this so attacking my position means they're attacking me").
Weep not poor children, For life is this way, Murdering beauty and passion.
I bring the light.
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
12
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Posted - 2015.09.21 23:35:00 -
[280] - Quote
Adipem Nothi 2.0
Sgt Kirk's Propaganda Youtube Channel
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
536
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Posted - 2015.09.21 23:40:00 -
[281] - Quote
I think one of the problems I an having with this thread, and maybe others are as well, is that the statement ' this is not a shield balancing thread' comes up anytime anyone has a critique of any of the numbers, especially the amar/galente regen buff...
So are we to assume the intent if this thread is to completely disregard balance of suits in any way for the sake of forcing through I couple people's vision?
Is this not short sighted?
Is it not similar to saying: ' We would like to set a baseline for grenade damage, basic grenades will now do 500 damage with a radius of 12 meters and no one better mention how this makes armor and shield suits imbalanced as it is not the intent of the thread.
Short answer, yes, buffing gallente and Amar shield regen is short sighted and I would like to hope not self serving. |
Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.21 23:42:00 -
[282] - Quote
Malleus Malificorum wrote:I like how you just attribute all the legitimate complaints people have had as only being complaints about you. Most of it is reacting to a questionable proposal and only a small portion of the reactance is actually attributed to your motives. As far as my viewpoints on the proposal, it's been summed up relatively adequately by enough other people that most of what I have to do here is attempt to correct your belief that people are reacting to you rather than to a questionable proposal.
In fact your false attributions tend to be the reason why people react to you, rather than to your proposals. It's rather hard to discuss something with a person who is being irrational / in denial ("they didn't like it because they don't like me!" instead of "they didn't like it because they didn't like it, also they said it was stupid" - and thus we get to "I am invested in this so attacking my position means they're attacking me").
Four posts later I still don't know what your stand-point is other than what you're saying now, which is "I agree with what everyone else is saying" O.o;;;
At any rate. Skype me. Or any of the other CPMs. Or you can sit here and keep whatever this is up, I really don't care, it isn't going to stop me from doing my job
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.09.21 23:44:00 -
[283] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:I think one of the problems I an having with this thread, and maybe others are as well, is that the statement ' this is not a shield balancing thread' comes up anytime anyone has a critique of any of the numbers, especially the amar/galente regen buff...
So are we to assume the intent if this thread is to completely disregard balance of suits in any way for the sake of forcing through I couple people's vision?
Is this not short sighted?
Is it not similar to saying: ' We would like to set a baseline for grenade damage, basic grenades will now do 500 damage with a radius of 12 meters and no one better mention how this makes armor and shield suits imbalanced as it is not the intent of the thread.
Short answer, yes, buffing gallente and Amar shield regen is short sighted and I would like to hope not self serving.
Then give me numbers showing how a slight improvement to Gallente shield delays is going to make them OP. And it's the same reasoning Rattati gave to the speed/hp curve: it might throw some things out of whack for awhile, but those will be more easily corrected when we have a solid foundation to build on. Right now shields are chaotic and garbage, but Aeon has a logical progression that will smooth things out. If Gallente suddenly become OP (they won't) then it will be easier to correct that than to try and make shields work on such a whacked out system.
We're trying to fix the foundation of the house, and your worried that the work might knock some pictures off the wall. Fixing the foundation is more important than having neatly hung pictures.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.21 23:45:00 -
[284] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:I think one of the problems I an having with this thread, and maybe others are as well, is that the statement ' this is not a shield balancing thread' comes up anytime anyone has a critique of any of the numbers, especially the amar/galente regen buff...
So are we to assume the intent if this thread is to completely disregard balance of suits in any way for the sake of forcing through I couple people's vision?
Is this not short sighted?
Is it not similar to saying: ' We would like to set a baseline for grenade damage, basic grenades will now do 500 damage with a radius of 12 meters and no one better mention how this makes armor and shield suits imbalanced as it is not the intent of the thread.
Short answer, yes, buffing gallente and Amar shield regen is short sighted and I would like to hope not self serving.
Over-simplification, really. It isn't the -whole- of shield balancing and the numbers were up for debate from the very beginning. The margins have since changed but the numbers really don't matter because the balancing is going to come primarily from Phase Two of the overall plan, as mentioned a few pages ago by Cross. Amarr Sentinel could have 1000000 hp/sec regen and that may not even matter come Phase Two in which, who knows, maybe armor tankers can't fit shield modules at all for whatever reason.
So, arguing about the numbers (and likewise the whole "armor tankers getting shield buff") is pointless because this is just one part of the story and the rest of that story is going to flesh things out better.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.21 23:46:00 -
[285] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Doc DDD wrote:I think one of the problems I an having with this thread, and maybe others are as well, is that the statement ' this is not a shield balancing thread' comes up anytime anyone has a critique of any of the numbers, especially the amar/galente regen buff...
So are we to assume the intent if this thread is to completely disregard balance of suits in any way for the sake of forcing through I couple people's vision?
Is this not short sighted?
Is it not similar to saying: ' We would like to set a baseline for grenade damage, basic grenades will now do 500 damage with a radius of 12 meters and no one better mention how this makes armor and shield suits imbalanced as it is not the intent of the thread.
Short answer, yes, buffing gallente and Amar shield regen is short sighted and I would like to hope not self serving. Then give me numbers showing how a slight improvement to Gallente shield delays is going to make them OP. And it's the same reasoning Rattati gave to the speed/hp curve: it might throw some things out of whack for awhile, but those will be more easily corrected when we have a solid foundation to build on. Right now shields are chaotic and garbage, but Aeon has a logical progression that will smooth things out. If Gallente suddenly become OP (they won't) then it will be easier to correct that than to try and make shields work on such a whacked out system. We're trying to fix the foundation of the house, and your worried that the work might knock some pictures off the wall. Fixing the foundation is more important than having neatly hung pictures.
Well, you see, when Gallente had +5% Shield Recharge per level they were all over the place and face-rolling everything. I don't remember that ever happening but apparently it was a thing =P
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
536
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Posted - 2015.09.21 23:49:00 -
[286] - Quote
It's easy.. if the numbers create the amar or galente suits shield stats to regen faster then your baseline is wrong.
It's not difficult to understand, stop saying ' but it's just a little ', if just a little doesn't matter to you then make the stats ' just a little ' worse... after all its ' just a little ' what possible difference could it make?
Why is it so hard to create a baseline system that does NOT buff the shield stats of armor suits?
I know I know.. " it's just a little "...
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
536
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Posted - 2015.09.21 23:54:00 -
[287] - Quote
Aeon, can you not kill two birds with one stone in phase one rather than open up the possibility that amar could hypothetically have 100000000 reps per second? I know you aren't being serious, but at the same time would it not be easy just avoid giving amar 10000000 reps per second in the first place? |
Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.21 23:59:00 -
[288] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:It's easy.. if the numbers create the amar or galente suits shield stats to regen faster then your baseline is wrong.
It's not difficult to understand, stop saying ' but it's just a little ', if just a little doesn't matter to you then make the stats ' just a little ' worse... after all its ' just a little ' what possible difference could it make?
Why is it so hard to create a baseline system that does NOT buff the shield stats of armor suits?
I know I know.. " it's just a little "...
Listen, I'm sick as hell right now so I'm trying my hardest to be polite but I'mma level with you.
Long Term > Short Term.
Just fixing Commandos isn't going to solve the core design issues and "buffing armor tanks shield regen" is a perception based on this critically flawed system we currently have: http://i.imgur.com/qFIcvgC.png. If that system wasn't so stupidly chaotic, you probably wouldn't even notice the minute little buff the armor tankers were getting, but unfortunately because of the whacky bullshit CCP did in the early days of Uprising that's just how it is.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.22 00:01:00 -
[289] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Aeon, can you not kill two birds with one stone in phase one rather than open up the possibility that amar could hypothetically have 100000000 reps per second? I know you aren't being serious, but at the same time would it not be easy just avoid giving amar 10000000 reps per second in the first place?
I have no idea what the hell you're talking about at this point.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
536
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Posted - 2015.09.22 00:07:00 -
[290] - Quote
I understand it's a chaotic system, I'm not posting simply to bust your ballz and waste time.. it's honestly blowing my mind that amar and gallente shield regen is being IMPROVED for no reason other than that's the number we pulled out of a hat and anyone that runs an armor suit will get behind us. If this stage doesn't matter in the bigger picture then why is buffing armor suits shield regen necessary? Can't it be adjusted at another phase if it is such an issue down the road? Can we not imement some game play logic? Just food for thought, hope you feel better! |
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DeathwindRising
Titans of Phoenix
1
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Posted - 2015.09.22 00:09:00 -
[291] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:I know we are getting off topic here but I don't understand, from a design perspective, how shorter depleted delays than non-depleted can be a good thing. Why would you want to encourage shield tankers to go into armour? The current method makes for much better gameplay.
And just a correction on precision mods. You are more likely to find them on a logi than a scout, where they are very effective. I also have an assault fitted with them, though I doubt that's common. It's not encouragement to go into armor. It's a higher likelihood of survival if you escape. Waitting 6-8 seconds if yo manage to survive being put into armor (unlikely) is an eternity. And i forgot about the precision logi. I stand corrected.
6-8 seconds means youre not fitting the shield regulators. or, you using an armor suit.
you can easily get the delays under 2 seconds and the depleted under 3 seconds if you use the regulators.
if youre an armor suit trying to shield tank, then tough luck with your delays.
if youre not using the shield regulators, then how can anyone complain about their shield delays being too long? |
Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
536
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Posted - 2015.09.22 00:09:00 -
[292] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Aeon, can you not kill two birds with one stone in phase one rather than open up the possibility that amar could hypothetically have 100000000 reps per second? I know you aren't being serious, but at the same time would it not be easy just avoid giving amar 10000000 reps per second in the first place? I have no idea what the hell you're talking about at this point.
Two or three posts back you replied to my comment saying for all it matters the numbers could show amar sentinel shields regen in at 10000000hps but it wouldnt matter due to whatever you do in phase two, I'm stating why not just take care of the issue in phase one. |
GRIM GEAR
Vaginas R Us
527
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Posted - 2015.09.22 00:15:00 -
[293] - Quote
I can see the op is bias towards assault suits enough said.
Cup of tea anyone?
I came here to mingle can you hear that jingle that would be me lingle.
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.22 00:27:00 -
[294] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Aeon, can you not kill two birds with one stone in phase one rather than open up the possibility that amar could hypothetically have 100000000 reps per second? I know you aren't being serious, but at the same time would it not be easy just avoid giving amar 10000000 reps per second in the first place? I have no idea what the hell you're talking about at this point. Two or three posts back you replied to my comment saying for all it matters the numbers could show amar sentinel shields regen in at 10000000hps but it wouldnt matter due to whatever you do in phase two, I'm stating why not just take care of the issue in phase one.
Because that's just not going to work for the long-term. It won't, it's just that simple. We could address it in Phase One but then, six months or a year ahead of time, if we make any changes to the modules suddenly we'll start seeing problems again because they are percentage based. We can't change that, so we have to change the base values of the dropsuits and provide a foundation for the modules to work in a predictable environment.
As far as your question as to why Gallente and Amarr are being balanced instead of just leaving them alone, take a look at these two charts:
Our Current System: http://i.imgur.com/9MZvU0W.png
The Proposed System: http://i.imgur.com/62OslDx.png
The EHP/Movement Speed Ratio set forth by CPM1 and CCP Rattati don't associate with shield regen stats and as a result we started looking at how to make that happen. Why? Because it doesn't make any sense at all that a Gallente Logistics should have worse regen stats than an Amarr Sentinel, or why a Minmatar Commando should have worse regen than, say, an Amarr Scout.
It is simply this:
As a suits EHP goes up, it's movement speed goes down. Subsequently, it's regen capability should also go down. A suit should not have high buffer and high regen by nature.
So why did the Gallente and Amarr get buffs here and there? Because they're following this new design path. Whereas, for example the Gallente, saw that the Sentinel, Logistics, and Commando all about the same regen (15hp/s) they had different EHP and Movement Speeds. It doesn't make sense that a Logistics and Sentinel should have the same regen when the Sentinel -clearly- has more EHP and therefore initial survivability. Logistics, being weaker, need to recover faster if our design premise for Scouts was any indicator.
Hope that helps make more sense of things.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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GRIM GEAR
Vaginas R Us
527
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Posted - 2015.09.22 00:28:00 -
[295] - Quote
Not my fault CCP decided the original numbers by throwing a dart at the wall O.o;
How does it make sense that a Sentinel, Logistics, and Commando all have the same regen, even on the Gallente/Amarr? Does that follow the Speed to EHP Ratio that we've outlined? Not at all. We've established several pages ago that, even despite the race, the role needs to adhere to that same progression.
Scout > Logistics > Assault > Commando > Sentinel
Obviously Sentinels and Commandos have a higher EHP than Logistics, so why would it make sense that they all have the same regen for any reason other than vindictiveness toward the race/role or... Well, I can't think of another reason.
Yeah, no, this isn't "buff armor" lol, this is adhering to the design principles that have been laid out and established.
[/quote]
You have contradicted yourself right here brahhh! Why do the assault suits have lower shield delays compared to logistics on you're spread sheet?
Cup of tea anyone?
I came here to mingle can you hear that jingle that would be me lingle.
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.22 00:29:00 -
[296] - Quote
GRIM GEAR wrote:You have contradicted yourself right here brahhh! Why do the assault suits have lower shield delays compared to logistics on you're spread sheet?
Beeeeecause this was an early rendition prior to a critical change that was made in the internal CPM deliberation that now has Logistics with better regen than Assaults? As I stated in previous posts, changes have been made as this was a rough draft and they are all - until implemented in the game - drafts.
EDIT: You're like nine pages late on that btw, as it was mentioned.
EDIT: You can actually see that in the previous post where Logistics have better regen than Assaults. Oooooh aaaahhh such bias!
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
536
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Posted - 2015.09.22 00:43:00 -
[297] - Quote
So why not lower the regen stats for all amar and gallente shield regen... then balance the number within the race logically. I am not understanding why this isn't acceptable short of ' we need to buff gallente assaults incase shield extenders are percentage based in 3 years so that one person can shield tank a gallente assault suit for no reason'.
Shield suit shield stats = 1
Hybrid suit shield stats = 0.5
Armor suit shield stats = 0.00000000000000005
Not shield 1
Hybrid .95
Armor .93 |
Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
536
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Posted - 2015.09.22 00:47:00 -
[298] - Quote
I'm sure the same will be done for armor in the future with Caldari being lowest on the totem pole. I don't expect Caldari to receive armor repair buffs. |
Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.22 00:50:00 -
[299] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:I'm sure the same will be done for armor in the future with Caldari being lowest on the totem pole. I don't expect Caldari to receive armor repair buffs.
That already happened, and they did.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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DeathwindRising
Titans of Phoenix
1
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Posted - 2015.09.22 00:51:00 -
[300] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:So why not lower the regen stats for all amar and gallente shield regen... then balance the number within the race logically. I am not understanding why this isn't acceptable short of ' we need to buff gallente assaults incase shield extenders are percentage based in 3 years so that one person can shield tank a gallente assault suit for no reason'.
Shield suit shield stats = 1
Hybrid suit shield stats = 0.5
Armor suit shield stats = 0.00000000000000005
Not shield 1
Hybrid .95
Armor .93
ive honestly avoided mentioning the actual numbers proposed simply because they were so incredibly crazy on the armor suits.
those numbers would let me run viable shield tanks on armor tanking suits due to slot layouts alone |
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