http://i.imgur.com/eshWaQK.jpg

^ That's from Aeon. Page 1, Post 1.

Note how the CalScout and CalSent are held constant. Now note the following shield buffs to armor tankers:

GA Sent - Buff to recharge.
GA Scout - Buff to recharge.
GA Logi - Buff to recharge and delay.
GA Commando - Buff to recharge and delay.
GA Assault - Buff to recharge and delay (This one receives the biggest buffs of all. Anyone surprised?).
AM Logi - Buff to recharge and delay.
AM Commando - Buff to recharge and delay.
AM Assault - Buff to recharge and delay.

I'm just looking at the numbers, and it looks to me like Aeon's angling for a buff for Armor Tankers. Unless, as I said above, he has since changed his mind. What am I missing here, Breakin?

Come on Apidem. Gallente buffs in the OP are very similar to Caldari buffs. Shield buffs hold more value for Caldari suits, and besides, balancing armour and shields wasn't the intention of the thread.

I'm much more worried about significant buffs to assaults and logis, whilst leaving sentinels and scouts where they are. Without doing anything to try to maintain balance.

I think if this goes through how it is, balancing will need to be done. Either by nerfing the suits getting buffed, or buffing the suits being held relatively constant.

I guess it's simple logic.

"Never attribute to malice, that which is adequately explained by stupidity" - Hanlons Razor.

I mean, it could be out of malice... but given aeons track record of being wrong it's probably just failure to actually comprehend.

http://i.imgur.com/eshWaQK.jpg

Overall I support the above proposed changes. Some suits, such as Min and Gal Assault, seem to benefit too much from these changes, but to really get the payoff they'll have to invest in shield regen mods and make sacrifices elsewhere. And recharge delays are really such an incredible handicap that it's best to err on the side of liberality in buffing shield regen. Anything egregious will be adjusted swiftly, i.e. when the Rail Rifle was nerfed into the underworld.

Having said that, scouts will be nerfed into oblivion by these changes. They're already extremely squishy compared to assaults. If they end up having the same delay and only 5 more regen than assaults there REALLY will be no reason to run scout.

I suggest that the proposed changes be altered to create some distance between scouts and assaults:

- Reduce all scouts' proposed delays by 1 second.

- Increase all scouts' proposed recharge by 5.

So on one end you'd have Caldari Scout with recharge of 55 and delay of 2 seconds. On the other end Amarr Scout with 40 and 3.5.

If everything else is getting a buff to shields then scouts need one too because right now scouts are somewhat UP and without some love it's going to get worse.

---

Commandos also merit a little more love. It's a mistake to always give them stats that fall just above sentinels in these progressions. The only thing that commandos have in common with sentinels is a larger hitbox, which is an extreme handicap. Otherwise they are slower assaults (major handicap) with less regen that can run two light weapons and no grenades. No grenades is also a handicap in this grenade crazy game. They don't even have more EHP than assaults due to their slot layouts. Their shield regen needs to be brought closer to assaults. My suggestion to accomplish this is simple:

- Give commandos the same regen and delays as logistics

Just following a strict pattern without acknowledging the reality of how scouts and commandos are performing is going to leave them even more in the lurch. We need more scouts and definitely more commandos in the field, but if the above proposed changes go through without tweaks in their favor you'll find that players will be running them even less than they do now. Heed my words CPM!!

False. Dual taking is not penalized in Eve, it's just pointless to do so since you have all kinds of mods that make killing things easier. A dual tanked ship will lose to a normal ship because it either A) doesn do as much damage as the normal ship or B) doesn't apply damage as well as the normal ship. The problem with Dust is there is no way to have things like tracking disruptors or target painters, so HP is almost always the betterchoice. In the case of Caldari, dual tanking is the only way to survive.

If you are looking at depleted delays may I just state that I am strongly of the opinion that depleted delays should simply last a fixed percentage longer that non-depleted delays.

It's simple. It makes sense. It results in an interesting gameplay mechanic where you try not to let your shields become completely depleted. This also reduces the value of armour on your shield tanking fit, as the goal is to not get into armour in the first place, helping to distinguish between tanking styles and rewarding fits that contain synergy.

I understand that "Step 2" will involve improving shield modules, which will help shield tankers, but make no mistake. Aeon's angling for a buff for armor tankers (unless he has since changed his mind).

Yo CPM! What are your thoughts on allowing damage mods to be placed in low slots as well? Armor tankers get to have the best of both worlds while shield tankers have to choose, and in their low slots they have no choice: regulator and reactives.

I'm just looking at the numbers, and it looks to me like Aeon's angling for a buff for Armor Tankers. Unless, as I said above, he has since changed his mind. What am I missing here, Breakin?

Where were these comments when I single-handedly found out what Burst AR's were under-performing compared to Combat Rifles?

Or when I had multiple videos and spreadsheets showing why and how Myofibrils were broken?

Like, you guys aren't arguing the proposal anymore you're just pissy because it was me that posted it I'll just have Cross post the next one and you guys will be none the wiser! (Oh ****, now there's a level of uncertainty, how can we trust the rest of the CPM if they'll be ghost-writing for Aeon!?)

Being right once or twice doesn't mean you're now infallible, to presume so implies a massive amount of arrogance and ego (which pairs up nicely with the implication that you might actually be incompetent). As the proverb says "Even the sun shines on a dogs ass some days".

But hey, this only happens cause you have a habit of feeding the trolls with your dramatic "leave britney alone" freakouts ("GOD, I'M NEVER POSTING NUMBERS ON THE FORUMS EVER AGAIN, STOP BEING MEAN TO ME")

Also yep, myo's are broken: Which is why you're defending the status quo with them so hard to keep them the way they are right? Cause superman leaps and punching for 700 damage is in no way overpowered and you totally don't run them on a lot of your fits at all, because making use of something that's overpowered totally isn't in poor taste. But whenever someone tries to rationalize with you about it, you refuse to even listen to other viewpoints. Where's the objectivity? I mean you seem to only want people to agree with you and have a flip-out any time they don't.

I like how you just attribute all the legitimate complaints people have had as only being complaints about you. Most of it is reacting to a questionable proposal and only a small portion of the reactance is actually attributed to your motives. As far as my viewpoints on the proposal, it's been summed up relatively adequately by enough other people that most of what I have to do here is attempt to correct your belief that people are reacting to you rather than to a questionable proposal.

In fact your false attributions tend to be the reason why people react to you, rather than to your proposals. It's rather hard to discuss something with a person who is being irrational / in denial ("they didn't like it because they don't like me!" instead of "they didn't like it because they didn't like it, also they said it was stupid" - and thus we get to "I am invested in this so attacking my position means they're attacking me").

I think one of the problems I an having with this thread, and maybe others are as well, is that the statement ' this is not a shield balancing thread' comes up anytime anyone has a critique of any of the numbers, especially the amar/galente regen buff...

So are we to assume the intent if this thread is to completely disregard balance of suits in any way for the sake of forcing through I couple people's vision?

Is this not short sighted?

Is it not similar to saying: ' We would like to set a baseline for grenade damage, basic grenades will now do 500 damage with a radius of 12 meters and no one better mention how this makes armor and shield suits imbalanced as it is not the intent of the thread.

Short answer, yes, buffing gallente and Amar shield regen is short sighted and I would like to hope not self serving.

I think one of the problems I an having with this thread, and maybe others are as well, is that the statement ' this is not a shield balancing thread' comes up anytime anyone has a critique of any of the numbers, especially the amar/galente regen buff...

So are we to assume the intent if this thread is to completely disregard balance of suits in any way for the sake of forcing through I couple people's vision?

Is this not short sighted?

Is it not similar to saying: ' We would like to set a baseline for grenade damage, basic grenades will now do 500 damage with a radius of 12 meters and no one better mention how this makes armor and shield suits imbalanced as it is not the intent of the thread.

Short answer, yes, buffing gallente and Amar shield regen is short sighted and I would like to hope not self serving.

Then give me numbers showing how a slight improvement to Gallente shield delays is going to make them OP. And it's the same reasoning Rattati gave to the speed/hp curve: it might throw some things out of whack for awhile, but those will be more easily corrected when we have a solid foundation to build on. Right now shields are chaotic and garbage, but Aeon has a logical progression that will smooth things out. If Gallente suddenly become OP (they won't) then it will be easier to correct that than to try and make shields work on such a whacked out system.

We're trying to fix the foundation of the house, and your worried that the work might knock some pictures off the wall. Fixing the foundation is more important than having neatly hung pictures.

It's easy.. if the numbers create the amar or galente suits shield stats to regen faster then your baseline is wrong.

It's not difficult to understand, stop saying ' but it's just a little ', if just a little doesn't matter to you then make the stats ' just a little ' worse... after all its ' just a little ' what possible difference could it make?

Why is it so hard to create a baseline system that does NOT buff the shield stats of armor suits?

I know I know.. " it's just a little "...

Aeon, can you not kill two birds with one stone in phase one rather than open up the possibility that amar could hypothetically have 100000000 reps per second? I know you aren't being serious, but at the same time would it not be easy just avoid giving amar 10000000 reps per second in the first place?

It's not encouragement to go into armor. It's a higher likelihood of survival if you escape. Waitting 6-8 seconds if yo manage to survive being put into armor (unlikely) is an eternity.

And i forgot about the precision logi. I stand corrected.

I have no idea what the hell you're talking about at this point.

Two or three posts back you replied to my comment saying for all it matters the numbers could show amar sentinel shields regen in at 10000000hps but it wouldnt matter due to whatever you do in phase two, I'm stating why not just take care of the issue in phase one.

You have contradicted yourself right here brahhh! Why do the assault suits have lower shield delays compared to logistics on you're spread sheet?

I'm sure the same will be done for armor in the future with Caldari being lowest on the totem pole. I don't expect Caldari to receive armor repair buffs.

So why not lower the regen stats for all amar and gallente shield regen... then balance the number within the race logically. I am not understanding why this isn't acceptable short of ' we need to buff gallente assaults incase shield extenders are percentage based in 3 years so that one person can shield tank a gallente assault suit for no reason'.

Shield suit shield stats = 1
Hybrid suit shield stats = 0.5
Armor suit shield stats = 0.00000000000000005

Not shield 1
Hybrid .95
Armor .93