dual tanking will always be a thing unless doing so is directly penalized.

I've suggested doing so, but I'm outvoted.

im also wondering about the overall design here. regarding caldari suits mostly, their slower suits need more regen than the more mobile suits

1. False
2. False
3. False

Because you say so?

What does the market data say?
What does PC usage say?
What does Rattati say?

dual tanking will always be a thing unless doing so is directly penalized.

I've suggested doing so, but I'm outvoted.

market data without any other comparative data means... Nothing.
PC usage is, as I understand it, shifting to point-blank speed meta rather than heavy HP meta. I am informed that sentinels are getting their asses pasted left and right.

And Rattati? I'll ask.

Your rattati quote is cute, so where is the quote from, so I can read the full context?

Your snippet means jack.

Yes there are ways to buff shield tanking further, and to an extent it is presumed that will be called for. Looking at depleted delays as well as shield mod offerings being next up to bat.

[/list]

Of course , Breakin. Everyone else's observations, experiences and concerns can be freely dismissed. Market data doesn't matter; frankly, it means nothing. Nothing matters except for your own anecdotal experience and observations because (A) you aren't a non-competitive player performing poorly enough to fluctuate between Hi and Lo Mu queues, (B) you know exactly what's going on with competitive meta because you participate in PC regularly and (C) you know all about every suit and every playstyle because you run them all regularly and run them well; you're an expert in all things, which is why you do not bounce back-and-forth between Hi and Lo Mu queue.

Your anecdotal observations count, and only your anecdotal observations count. Am I getting this right?

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2492622#post2492622

Bravo adipem.

I'm not going to shut up.

Ever.

But Carry on Adipem Ad Hominem

Right.

Data from a near-year-old post from last december.

Bravo.

Done with you adipem, You don't entertain a dissenting opinion, ever, for any reason. I see no reason to do so with you or entertain your conversation further.

Later.

1. I have never seen you challenge an idea without attacking the character of the person with the idea.

2. Your attempts at character assassination aren't seen in a positive light.

You're all a bunch of scrubs.

Carry on.

Devander, it goes...

Cal > Min > Gal > Amarr. Aeon just doesn't have them ordered in that manner on the spreadsheet. This is the primary method by which recharge delays are weighted.

The fastest recharge delay goes to the lowest HP within the race, slowest goes to the highest HP. Recharge rate also falls into this range as well.

To recap: This is based off of baseline suit HP and weighted by racial dependency upon shields.

So within the racial bounds, understanding that cal are to be hands down the best and amarr hands down the worst at shield regen...

Scout > Assault > Logistics > Commando > Sentinel

Or in layman's terms:

Skinny > Middleweight > Fatty

This proposal only accounts for recharge rates and base recharge delay.

I am poking at the depleted delays, and the extender tweaks currently.

If I did my rotten work correctly the depleted delays will actually be shorter for shield suits and then push out until the amarr at the back end enjoy longer depleted delays than recharge delays while caldari suits tend to have shorter depleted delays.

Aeon's post is part of the equation.

Once we're done with the baseline stats if they are chosen to use we watch with a magnifying glass, analyze and tweak upward or downward as needed, then look at the other shield modules if need be.

If at that point the shield modules cannot be tweaked fairly, THEN we look at punching armor in the gut.

Just a little.

But making shields competitive should be doable.

Then once we have shields stabilized at a competitive level and the TTK averages in the game are settled, we can begin looking at the oft-misidentified "secondary" module options. I know I'm not happy about precision and range enhancers. High slots have a grand total of what, three useful module types?

Kincats and cardiac regs work great, but those are low slots. High slots are pretty much Damage mods, shields, shield regen. The rest are either niche items or nearly exclusively used by a few scouts (precision mods).

Honestly once we can put the tank imbalance behind us I want to figure out what can be used to increase high slot variety.

To clarify: We have indeed seen wonders suggested in the past that went stale within weeks.

I can see where this leads, and its glorious.

But, the steam can't stop once this starts rolling. This isn't something that can be drug out over a year and expect to have any shield players left. The initial change will leave us balanced... but out-supported. Things have to move quickly.

On that note, the more we buck and argue, the longer it will take. See the big picture and you will be on board.

Nobody runs more shield fits than me, sorry for all the heat. o7

lies lol.

ive run shield fits since the beginning of time!!

Then once we have shields stabilized at a competitive level and the TTK averages in the game are settled, we can begin looking at the oft-misidentified "secondary" module options. I know I'm not happy about precision and range enhancers. High slots have a grand total of what, three useful module types?

Kincats and cardiac regs work great, but those are low slots. High slots are pretty much Damage mods, shields, shield regen. The rest are either niche items or nearly exclusively used by a few scouts (precision mods).

Honestly once we can put the tank imbalance behind us I want to figure out what can be used to increase high slot variety.

Devander, it goes...

Cal > Min > Gal > Amarr. Aeon just doesn't have them ordered in that manner on the spreadsheet. This is the primary method by which recharge delays are weighted.

The fastest recharge delay goes to the lowest HP within the race, slowest goes to the highest HP. Recharge rate also falls into this range as well.

To recap: This is based off of baseline suit HP and weighted by racial dependency upon shields.

So within the racial bounds, understanding that cal are to be hands down the best and amarr hands down the worst at shield regen...

Scout > Assault > Logistics > Commando > Sentinel

Or in layman's terms:

Skinny > Middleweight > Fatty

This proposal only accounts for recharge rates and base recharge delay.

I am poking at the depleted delays, and the extender tweaks currently.

If I did my rotten work correctly the depleted delays will actually be shorter for shield suits and then push out until the amarr at the back end enjoy longer depleted delays than recharge delays while caldari suits tend to have shorter depleted delays.

Aeon's post is part of the equation.

Once we're done with the baseline stats if they are chosen to use we watch with a magnifying glass, analyze and tweak upward or downward as needed, then look at the other shield modules if need be.

If at that point the shield modules cannot be tweaked fairly, THEN we look at punching armor in the gut.

Just a little.

But making shields competitive should be doable.

Then once we have shields stabilized at a competitive level and the TTK averages in the game are settled, we can begin looking at the oft-misidentified "secondary" module options. I know I'm not happy about precision and range enhancers. High slots have a grand total of what, three useful module types?

Kincats and cardiac regs work great, but those are low slots. High slots are pretty much Damage mods, shields, shield regen. The rest are either niche items or nearly exclusively used by a few scouts (precision mods).

Honestly once we can put the tank imbalance behind us I want to figure out what can be used to increase high slot variety.

faster regen on lower HP suits? why? when we rebalanced the armor regen rates, the gal scout had the best. then we all found out how that actually turned out in the field, and nerfed it.

The problem with making a post in these threads is that guys only want solutions based on numbers and theory. No one seems to care about any thing based on practice. It's like the doctor that treats his patients based solely on lab results without talking to the patient or physical examinations.

All that I'm reading is buff shield regen and delay, etc. But none of that will solve the shield tanking problem as long as the counter to shield suits is so "effective". I have shield fits with regens under 2 secs and 40hp+ on the recharge...lol, how much more do I need, seriously? And these suits won't be able to stand against an amarr or gal suit with damaged modded scrambler rifles and more tank at ANY distance.

Right now, we can build shield suits with great regen...buffing the delay and recharge will not solve the problem. I don't care if the delay is down to 0, shield tanking will still not be viable.

Quick fact check:

The GalScout's regen had little if anything to do with it being OP/FoTM following 1.8.

Assault Lite was able to pack on the HP and still beat scans thanks to cloak's active damp bonus. This was pre-Assault buff, so Assault Lite HP levels weren't far removed from Assault. Also, Scout passive scans were much stronger pre-falloff and they remained strong even while cloaked (cloakblind came later). Further, cloak operation was much different then; not only did it afford a higher damp bonus, but it also had higher reserves and could be toggled on/off near instantly, which brought about fire-from-cloak problems.

In a nutshell, Assault Lite was able to pull-off Assault-like HP levels and still beat scans, while also benefiting from superior mobility & wiggle, far better passives and 2 EQ slots. Not to mention, fire-from-cloak. There were lots of problems w/Assault Lite. Regen might've been among them, but it certainly wasn't a big one.

the arguement aginst the regen was that it was high enough that you didnt need a rep mod, and so you could simply stack plates which led to the HP being much higher than desired. when you add everything else in it just painted a picture of this OP suit. I remember the regen rate was one of the first things they changed on the suit though before all the other stuff.