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Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
13
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Posted - 2015.09.18 17:51:00 -
[31] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:For a more in depth analysis at the numbers, you can check out this screenshot of the spreadsheet with my considerations/notes on the nuances: http://i.imgur.com/eshWaQK.jpg Big buff to Gal Assault? Didn't see that one coming. Do you really think that today's GalAssault needs a buff to shield performance? A simple Yes/No will suffice. There's an additional proposal (that would have to come after standardization of course) to change the Caldari Assault and Gallente Assault's base HP values to correlate more with their combat philosophy. More specifically, taking away subsidiary tank HP and giving it to primary tank HP. Caldari shields are 275 and armor is 155, with Gallente being a mirror of this in it's respective areas. So, you'd more likely see a Gallente Assault with 330 armor and 100 shields after that change. This is just one additional proposal, of which there are many that are being considered. However, regardless of what proposal it is, it would be something that would have to come after standardization took place as it would be chaotic to balance otherwise. There are going to be some oddities and outliers in this system that will need more refined work but the baseline/foundation must first be established.
I can dig this.
I always liked the healthy shield buffer on gal suits, but with these changes, base shield tank nerfs would be needed.
Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_;
Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.09.18 17:53:00 -
[32] - Quote
As far as Cal and Gal being mirrors of each other, Gal is actually in the right spot. LEss armor than Amarr, but more regen. Giving them more base armor means they could have the same hp as Amarr AND higher base regen than Amarr. This is not good. Instead, Leave Gal where they are, and simply buff Cal. Although personally I think Cal should come out with slightly more hp than Gal After the change, considering Caldari are all about stacking all the shields.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.18 18:09:00 -
[33] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:The Ehp -Mobility model that is being adhered to works against shields. If shield suits are supposed to be 'skirmishers that pop in and out of battle using cover and speed' then should have speed. 5 high slots on a Caldari assault fully skilled gives you 707 shields with no equipment, no grenade and no side arm you can squeeze on a total of around 370 armor with no speed penalties. 1077 Ehp, 7.28 sprint. Amar assault you can get 399 shield and 806 armor, 1205 Ehp, 6.98 sprint, plus a sidearm, plus a grenade, plus a nanohive. Balancing suit speed to Ehp does little to balance much about the suits when the difference in speed does little when the Amar weapon deletes the Caldari suit in 0.4 seconds. While the Caldari weapon barely finishes spooling and getting a couple shots off. The game is no where near balanced, and so far all we have done is balanced the ratio of speed to possible Ehp. 700 armor can move as fast as 700 shields which given the status of shields puts armor at a huge advantage.
Shield suits of equal Ehp to armor suits should be much faster as they have to stay out of scrambler range.
Hence why shield tankers are getting higher regen rates. Faster speed is generally assumed, as well, because their primary defense does not impact their speed, unlike armor. I don't necessarily believe that 700 Armor is in any way better than 700 Shields because they have their own merits. That armor will be moving slow as ****, will be missing a lot of low-slot utility, and have terrible regen unless they sacrifice the fitting capabilty/tank for that.
Regardless, it has little to do with shield standardization as a whole. The method and the math are completely separate balancing factors. This proposal illustrates the method.
Alena Ventrallis wrote:As far as Cal and Gal being mirrors of each other, Gal is actually in the right spot. LEss armor than Amarr, but more regen. Giving them more base armor means they could have the same hp as Amarr AND higher base regen than Amarr. This is not good. Instead, Leave Gal where they are, and simply buff Cal. Although personally I think Cal should come out with slightly more hp than Gal After the change, considering Caldari are all about stacking all the shields.
Again, it is a proposal being considered but not the fundamental topic at hand -right now-.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Shadowed Cola
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2015.09.18 18:18:00 -
[34] - Quote
Remember, this is a tactical shooter. This thread purpose isn't to find a safe spot for shield users to enjoy themselves, but to strike a clearer balance between armor vs shield.
Some weapons will still make your Caldari Heavy feel like fodder - while others will make you feel like superman running through barrages.
Now, I'm completely against standardizing EHP values between the two by equaling there values and differentiating them with speed. The speed meta is why the shield users can get away with stack resistance and have less over-all HP instead of EHP. Resistance stacks very well for shields if you keep piling it on, but it also works the opposite, and that's where the balance exists.
So, the question is - do we enable a shield style of play that is similar to Armor that allows a person to stack shield and not rely on mobility? Because I honestly don't see a huge issue with the current shield meta and how it works. Shield users currently have many advantages that's quite overwhelming when specialized.
It's a strange question to ask consdiering how shields behave - but that seems to be the issue a lot of people are having, favoring meta they don't understand. |
Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.18 18:24:00 -
[35] - Quote
Shadowed Cola wrote:Some weapons will still make your Caldari Heavy feel like fodder
If we're talking about the scrambler rifle that weapon just needs a nerf or serious rework. As long as we get to pretend that tactical weapons arent overpowered and there are simultaneously no anti armor tactical weapons, shields are going to be disproportionately ****** by them. |
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
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Posted - 2015.09.18 18:25:00 -
[36] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:does little when the Amar weapon deletes the Caldari suit in 0.4 seconds. While the Caldari weapon barely finishes spooling and getting a couple shots off. Sounds like a weapons balance concern as much as a speed or HP concern. The real match framework absolutely includes all these elements, there's no question about that. But the intent is to find overall game balance by iterating one system at a time so that each exists within a framework. This was, AFAIK, not done in the early days of Dust and thus while not idea it needs to be done now.
Using the present game as a base for arguments such as this is problematic in the extreme because with the issues currently present one can find a reason to do/not do most things. Or do/not do thing X before thing Y and vice versa.
That's why specific iterative steps are needed, and thus why framing things in a broader context such as those including weapons balance implications isn't of use to the balance process at this point on this subject.
0.02 ISK
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Shadowed Cola
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2015.09.18 18:28:00 -
[37] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Shadowed Cola wrote:Some weapons will still make your Caldari Heavy feel like fodder If we're talking about the scrambler rifle that weapon just needs a nerf or serious rework. As long as we get to pretend that tactical weapons arent overpowered and there are simultaneously no anti armor tactical weapons, shields are going to be disproportionately ****** by them. It's always a mistake to not put a RoF limit on single shooters with high base damage. |
Shadowed Cola
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2015.09.18 18:34:00 -
[38] - Quote
I find the RR more fearsome then the ScR - but I'm an Amarr Heavy. To be expected, because that's how the meta works.
But, admittedly, the ScR does a bit too much against armor. I don't think the resistance penalty is working properly. |
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
5
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Posted - 2015.09.18 18:41:00 -
[39] - Quote
I heartily agree that there's room for discussion on the topic of the, generally speaking, "rile line" of light weapons. And while I encourage that discussion I'd like to remind everyone that this thread isn't about weapon balance and will be most effective in gathering your feedback if we do not allow it to become side tracked by discussions of other aspects - weapons or otherwise - no matter how relevant they are in their own separate right.
Thanks all ~Cross
CPM mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
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Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.18 18:41:00 -
[40] - Quote
Shadowed Cola wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Shadowed Cola wrote:Some weapons will still make your Caldari Heavy feel like fodder If we're talking about the scrambler rifle that weapon just needs a nerf or serious rework. As long as we get to pretend that tactical weapons arent overpowered and there are simultaneously no anti armor tactical weapons, shields are going to be disproportionately ****** by them. It's always a mistake to not put a RoF limit on single shooters with high base damage.
There is a rate of fire limiter, iirc, you can realistically hit 8-9 shots per second and 10 shots per second is theoretically possible. The problem is each shot does over 100 damage with mods and shield damage profile bonus, so those 8-9 shots each second put you over 800-900 dps, which is way more than any other gun is capable of except the tactical AR, and way more than you can tank through with any reasonable shield fitting and expect to actually fight back with, particularly with the back loaded, hard capped, and generally low damage output of the railgun weaponry in the game. |
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Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.18 18:54:00 -
[41] - Quote
Shadowed Cola wrote:I find the RR more fearsome then the ScR - but I'm an Amarr Heavy. To be expected, because that's how the meta works.
But, admittedly, the ScR does a bit too much against armor. I don't think the resistance penalty is working properly.
The SCR actually does more dps to armor than the RR does (with 2 dmg mods and prof 5 for each: RR @571.05/ARR @603.08 vs. SCR @746.67. These numbers actually hugely favor the rail rifles since SCR profile vs. armor does nothing and 2 damage mods on a rail rifle if we're talking about shield tanked suits being the user is very unlikely, since damage mods replace primary tank, and yet the SCR is still way ahead even though its range effectiveness is very similar and its shield effectiveness is WAY better, numbers generated via PROTOFITS.com), though at least on an Amarr Heavy you have a decent chance to see an overheat before you die (though if they are accurate or use any kind of hit and run tactics to avoid overheat you are still royally ******).
SCR totally balanced though, no need to nerf.
Ill stop posting about the SCR though, since this thread is about regen delays. |
Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.18 18:56:00 -
[42] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:
Ill stop posting about the SCR though, since this thread is about regen delays.
I'd appreciate that.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.18 19:01:00 -
[43] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:
Ill stop posting about the SCR though, since this thread is about regen delays.
I'd appreciate that.
Your mom would appreciate that. |
Shadowed Cola
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2015.09.18 19:02:00 -
[44] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Shadowed Cola wrote:I find the RR more fearsome then the ScR - but I'm an Amarr Heavy. To be expected, because that's how the meta works.
But, admittedly, the ScR does a bit too much against armor. I don't think the resistance penalty is working properly. The SCR actually does more dps to armor than the RR does (with 2 dmg mods and prof 5 for each: RR @571.05/ARR @603.08 vs. SCR @746.67. These numbers actually hugely favor the rail rifles since SCR profile vs. armor does nothing and 2 damage mods on a rail rifle if we're talking about shield tanked suits being the user is very unlikely, since damage mods replace primary tank, and yet the SCR is still way ahead even though its range effectiveness is very similar and its shield effectiveness is WAY better, numbers generated via PROTOFITS.com), though at least on an Amarr Heavy you have a decent chance to see an overheat before you die (though if they are accurate or use any kind of hit and run tactics to avoid overheat you are still royally ******). SCR totally balanced though, no need to nerf. Ill stop posting about the SCR though, since this thread is about regen delays. It's the range, ScR may hurt, but it's not killing me from miles away. I can possibly do something to an enemy I can get too - can't do **** against one I can't.
And the range meta in this game is completely ****** up. How do you expect to balance shields when weapons are out of whack? lol
SG are anti shield - why? Snipers too are mostly anti-shields besides 1 type - why? Would it not make more sense for the heavy hitting weapons to be used against the higher HP armor instead of shield?
Sorry to continue to derail i'll stop lol |
Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.18 19:20:00 -
[45] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:
Ill stop posting about the SCR though, since this thread is about regen delays.
I'd appreciate that. Your mom would appreciate that.
She would.
If the weapon balance posts continue I'll have them snipped, so best not to waste precious time you guys will never get back because our lives are in fact finite.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.18 19:21:00 -
[46] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:
Ill stop posting about the SCR though, since this thread is about regen delays.
I'd appreciate that. Your mom would appreciate that. She would. If the weapon balance posts continue I'll have them snipped, so best not to waste precious time you guys will never get back because our lives are in fact finite.
I can just delete them, let me see if I can figure out how...
Nope, too dumb, feel free to delete them, I wont mind. |
Shadowed Cola
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2015.09.18 19:26:00 -
[47] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:
Ill stop posting about the SCR though, since this thread is about regen delays.
I'd appreciate that. Your mom would appreciate that. She would. If the weapon balance posts continue I'll have them snipped, so best not to waste precious time you guys will never get back because our lives are in fact finite. I can just delete them, let me see if I can figure out how... Nope, too dumb, feel free to delete them, I wont mind. Only mods can, you can submit a report or ticket and ask CCP to do it - they sometimes do.
Anyone got a link of the damage types and armor types and there resistance values? |
Zan Azikuchi
G.R.A.V.E The Ditanian Alliance
257
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Posted - 2015.09.18 22:23:00 -
[48] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:For a more in depth analysis at the numbers, you can check out this screenshot of the spreadsheet with my considerations/notes on the nuances: http://i.imgur.com/eshWaQK.jpg Big buff to Gal Assault? Didn't see that one coming. Do you really think that today's GalAssault needs a buff to shield performance? A simple Yes/No will suffice. There's an additional proposal (that would have to come after standardization of course) to change the Caldari Assault and Gallente Assault's base HP values to correlate more with their combat philosophy. More specifically, taking away subsidiary tank HP and giving it to primary tank HP. Caldari shields are 275 and armor is 155, with Gallente being a mirror of this in it's respective areas. So, you'd more likely see a Gallente Assault with 330 armor and 100 shields after that change. This is just one additional proposal, of which there are many that are being considered. However, regardless of what proposal it is, it would be something that would have to come after standardization took place as it would be chaotic to balance otherwise. There are going to be some oddities and outliers in this system that will need more refined work but the baseline/foundation must first be established.
So, in perspective, if we remove 35 armor and at that HP loss to shield, shield would have, instead of 275, 310 shield? while our armor would be at 120, we'd be at the same EHP as stated above, but will be more in line with our role as long range combatant's.
(I do not support the theory of shield's having to be specifically long range only, considering that 75% of the game features lots of cover and extreme close range engagements, but for the sake of getting better shield balance, I'll make this argument at a later time.)
When there is light, shadow's lurk and fear reign's... Yet by the blade of knight's, mankind, was given hope.
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
415
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Posted - 2015.09.18 23:02:00 -
[49] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
"Unified Theories" sound good, but I can't get behind the proposed buffs in the HP department. These will only lead to a widening of the performance gap between both Vet & Newbro and HP-oriented & Non-HP-oriented playstyles. Both of these are bad for Dust, and I can't see how the benefits of this proposal will outweigh the drawbacks.
A little late in response to this, but here it goes: There would be little to no changes involved in the direct HP of the suits under the proposal as I am understanding it. Issues with Newbros vs Vets would not be significantly effected by these changes, as all suits at all tiers would inherit the same stats (thank you lite-tiericide/Tankicide). Currently, as I understand it, this proposal does not include any module changes, so we do not have the issues of module scaling involved...so the issues of Vet vs Newbro aren't really relevant in this thread yet. And as these are base stats, and include overall buffs to base regeneration stats, I fail to see how this hurts non-hp oriented playstyles, as fitting the only "HP Oriented" modules (Shield Recharge modules and shield Regulators) becomes less of an issue under this proposal, freeing up that slot for something like a codebreaker or Cardiac Regulator.
@Aeon: Overall , since you're planning on the 2.1 of this proposal to have the logi/assault switched around in terms of regen, this seems like a solid basis for things, although as I stated in the previous thread...maybe a Standardized Regen Rate per Role might be an interesting way to go as well.
As many people know I have a lot of things to say on shield delay...but I do not think this is the proper time to bring them up
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback
524
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Posted - 2015.09.18 23:47:00 -
[50] - Quote
Give all Caldari 1 sec regeneration delay, 20+ regeneration per second, minmitar 5 sec with 5+, ammar/gallente 10 seconds with 1+ regeneration per second. Then shield suits would have any point to use. |
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback
524
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Posted - 2015.09.19 00:05:00 -
[51] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:For a more in depth analysis at the numbers, you can check out this screenshot of the spreadsheet with my considerations/notes on the nuances: http://i.imgur.com/eshWaQK.jpg Big buff to Gal Assault? Didn't see that one coming. Do you really think that today's GalAssault needs a buff to shield performance? A simple Yes/No will suffice.
No
The gallente do not need any sort of shield buff.. nor do Amar, all around Nerf to both classes shields IMHO. |
Booby Tuesdays
Bad Mother Thukkers
1
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Posted - 2015.09.19 00:10:00 -
[52] - Quote
I agree that the shield numbers need to be refined, as they're all over the place now. However, why on God's green earth would we buff armor tanking suits at all? Repping a few more HP per second, sure. Like 5 HP more max. I do not understand why the armor based suits need any type of shield buff what so ever.
Armor suits would have no weakness with these proposed numbers. If anything it would encourage dual tanking and King HP even more...
Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
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aiden telurius
35
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Posted - 2015.09.19 00:39:00 -
[53] - Quote
I doubt I can be of any help but I would like to point out something and make a module suggestion. What I would like to point out is that some officer suits (with some skills or mods) could actually be able to fit a tank's shield module. So my suggestion would be to make a heavy shield module (consider the normal ones as ferroscale) that would have high CPU and PG costs (with a movement penalty because it's basically a tank module and such an item would be quite large and bulky but also reduce the amount of HP that could be recharged) but an high HP boost.
This next part is just theoretical numbers as I can not convert a tank module to a human module (and I don't know what is considered too much shield HP)
[Basic] HP: +500 CPU: ~117 PG: ~13 movement penalty: ~8% recharge penalty: ~33% [Advanced] +50% all around on basic version [Prototype] +75% all around on basic version
That is the best I can do to help... feel free to delete it
Have you ever been with a gal? I haven't; can't stand the four eyes...
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.19 01:31:00 -
[54] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:I agree that the shield numbers need to be refined, as they're all over the place now. However, why on God's green earth would we buff armor tanking suits at all? Repping a few more HP per second, sure. Like 5 HP more max. I do not understand why the armor based suits need any type of shield buff what so ever. Armor suits would have no weakness with these proposed numbers. If anything it would encourage dual tanking and King HP even more...
Explain how, don't just make the statement. Pretend this is college and you're being graded on an essay because right now you're not including supporting arguments or backing for your statements.
That generally results in an F, btw.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.19 01:48:00 -
[55] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Booby Tuesdays wrote:I agree that the shield numbers need to be refined, as they're all over the place now. However, why on God's green earth would we buff armor tanking suits at all? Repping a few more HP per second, sure. Like 5 HP more max. I do not understand why the armor based suits need any type of shield buff what so ever. Armor suits would have no weakness with these proposed numbers. If anything it would encourage dual tanking and King HP even more... Explain how, don't just make the statement. Pretend this is college and you're being graded on an essay because right now you're not including supporting arguments or backing for your statements. That generally results in an F, btw. I'm in complete agreement with Booby. If armor tankers are outperforming shield tankers, and nerfs are for whatever reason off the table, then the obvious solution is to buff shield tankers. "Let's buff armor tankers while we're at it" doesn't make much practical sense. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.19 01:52:00 -
[56] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:For a more in depth analysis at the numbers, you can check out this screenshot of the spreadsheet with my considerations/notes on the nuances: http://i.imgur.com/eshWaQK.jpg Big buff to Gal Assault? Didn't see that one coming. Do you really think that today's GalAssault needs a buff to shield performance? A simple Yes/No will suffice. No The gallente do not need any sort of shield buff.. nor do Amar, all around Nerf to both classes shields IMHO. My thoughts exactly.
"Shield tankers are being outperformed by armor tankers. Let's buff 'em, but while we're at it let's also buff armor tankers."
Does not compute. Flowery unified theory or not. |
Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.19 02:39:00 -
[57] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:For a more in depth analysis at the numbers, you can check out this screenshot of the spreadsheet with my considerations/notes on the nuances: http://i.imgur.com/eshWaQK.jpg Big buff to Gal Assault? Didn't see that one coming. Do you really think that today's GalAssault needs a buff to shield performance? A simple Yes/No will suffice. No The gallente do not need any sort of shield buff.. nor do Amar, all around Nerf to both classes shields IMHO. My thoughts exactly. "Shield tankers are being outperformed by armor tankers. Let's buff 'em, but while we're at it let's also buff armor tankers."Does not compute. Flowery unified theory or not.
Over-simplification with absolutely nothing provided as far as feedback besides infantile repetition. You're welcome to propose changes with rational and reasonable backing, but parroting "Armor is bad" over and over isn't going to accomplish much.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.09.19 02:39:00 -
[58] - Quote
It's a good thing that decisions aren't dictated by you or Doc DDD, isn't it?
Adipem provide alternative values and math or quit sh*tposting. We realize you're salty that you're not on the CPM and none of us are on board with Scout Master Race.
Get over it already.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
15
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Posted - 2015.09.19 02:40:00 -
[59] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote: "Unified Theories" sound good, but I can't get behind the proposed buffs in the HP department. These will only lead to a widening of the performance gap between both Vet & Newbro and HP-oriented & Non-HP-oriented playstyles. Both of these are bad for Dust, and I can't see how the benefits of this proposal will outweigh the drawbacks.
Chromosome had its flaws, but it was a good time to be a newbro. They bumbled about, just like today. They dropped like flies, just like today. But when a newbro got the drop on a vet, he had damn good odds of killing that vet. Prototype or not. HP tanked or not. I fell in love with this game as a newbro in Chromosome. Call it nostalgia, but in my opinion, that is the direction we should be heading in if we want better NPE, higher retention rates and a healthier playerbase:
* Higher odds of success when outplaying/outpositioning one's opponent * Fewer get-out-of-jail-free cards afforded by HP tank * A better balanced playing field for non-HP-oriented playstyles
Player thinking, planning and skill should play a part in any shooter. And in a shooter with as many loadout options as Dust, different playstyles and configurations should be encouraged rather than marginalized in the wake of King HP. When a newbro gets the drop on one of us and manages to keep his shots on target, we owe that newbro good odds of success. Spin-and-win is an NPE killer, and reinforcing the predominant meta by slowing TTK will ultimately amount to another free pass for vets (and another kick-in-the-teeth for those of us who don't stack HP).
That's my two cents, at least.
PS: The correct answer to my question, was "No. GalAssaults are not in need of a shield buff."
1. As a re-iteration, HP would be re-assigned, not necessarily buffed. The suits would still have the same EHP but more focused and consolidated into their specialized areas of tank, meaning that weapons that work better against them will be enhanced in their performance rather than having to chew through the subsidiary tank. The numbers aren't set in stone, more of a spit-balled example but total HP would remain the same, in either case. (2A) Nothing about the shield proposal affects TTK either as there are not direct HP buffs. Does it open up for more opportunities to fit Shield Extenders in the wake of increase regen? Perhaps. (2B) One thing that many of the CPM are hesitant to do is further reduce TTK further. (2C) I apologize if you don't like this but this is the state of Dust 514 design, which has been developed consistently as a high-TTK Tactical Shooter. (3) EDIT: Players like being able to react to situations and there is a strong desire to maintain that. When a player gets killed faster than they can reasonably react, they feel cheated, and while there is merit in a newer player getting a kill because he got the jump on a veteran that can be accomplished in other areas and (4) it is not a justifiable reason why shields should not be standardized/balanced. 1. I'm looking at your numbers. Looks like you're proposing a buff for anyone and everyone who tanks HP. Not just the underperforming shield-tankers; you've somehow managed to squeeze in a substantial buff for armor tankers as well.
2A. There's more to TTK than base HP values. Otherwise, folks wouldn't run ferro or reactive plates.
2B. Sure. But I doubt that any member of CPM would knowingly support changes which would worsen overall balance or detrimentally impact NPE. I imagine that most CPM would agree that "grow the player base" should rank among our top priorities. Reinforcing the predominant, proto-friendly meta will not help in that cause. I include you in this assessment of CPM. I believe you mean well, even when you're dead wrong. I don't think that you recognize King HP for the problem it is.
2C. I agree that Dust isn't and shouldn't become a twitch shooter, but I also believe that there should be consequence to making mistakes, being caught unaware and being out-positioned/out-played. Stacking brick and shields should not be made a substitute for smart play.
3. A vet fails to check his surroundings, advances from cover, and is gunned down from behind by a newbro. A newbro gets the drop on a vet, watches as he advances from cover, guns him down from behind ... and dies to spin-and-win. Which player should feel cheated? Which player is more likely to quit Dust and play other games?
4. 100% in favor of better armor-v-shield balance. Always have been. I'm simply opposed to solutions which will further entrench King HP. |
Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.19 02:52:00 -
[60] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote: "Unified Theories" sound good, but I can't get behind the proposed buffs in the HP department. These will only lead to a widening of the performance gap between both Vet & Newbro and HP-oriented & Non-HP-oriented playstyles. Both of these are bad for Dust, and I can't see how the benefits of this proposal will outweigh the drawbacks.
Chromosome had its flaws, but it was a good time to be a newbro. They bumbled about, just like today. They dropped like flies, just like today. But when a newbro got the drop on a vet, he had damn good odds of killing that vet. Prototype or not. HP tanked or not. I fell in love with this game as a newbro in Chromosome. Call it nostalgia, but in my opinion, that is the direction we should be heading in if we want better NPE, higher retention rates and a healthier playerbase:
* Higher odds of success when outplaying/outpositioning one's opponent * Fewer get-out-of-jail-free cards afforded by HP tank * A better balanced playing field for non-HP-oriented playstyles
Player thinking, planning and skill should play a part in any shooter. And in a shooter with as many loadout options as Dust, different playstyles and configurations should be encouraged rather than marginalized in the wake of King HP. When a newbro gets the drop on one of us and manages to keep his shots on target, we owe that newbro good odds of success. Spin-and-win is an NPE killer, and reinforcing the predominant meta by slowing TTK will ultimately amount to another free pass for vets (and another kick-in-the-teeth for those of us who don't stack HP).
That's my two cents, at least.
PS: The correct answer to my question, was "No. GalAssaults are not in need of a shield buff."
1. As a re-iteration, HP would be re-assigned, not necessarily buffed. The suits would still have the same EHP but more focused and consolidated into their specialized areas of tank, meaning that weapons that work better against them will be enhanced in their performance rather than having to chew through the subsidiary tank. The numbers aren't set in stone, more of a spit-balled example but total HP would remain the same, in either case. (2A) Nothing about the shield proposal affects TTK either as there are not direct HP buffs. Does it open up for more opportunities to fit Shield Extenders in the wake of increase regen? Perhaps. (2B) One thing that many of the CPM are hesitant to do is further reduce TTK further. (2C) I apologize if you don't like this but this is the state of Dust 514 design, which has been developed consistently as a high-TTK Tactical Shooter. (3) EDIT: Players like being able to react to situations and there is a strong desire to maintain that. When a player gets killed faster than they can reasonably react, they feel cheated, and while there is merit in a newer player getting a kill because he got the jump on a veteran that can be accomplished in other areas and (4) it is not a justifiable reason why shields should not be standardized/balanced. 1. I'm looking at your numbers. Looks like you're proposing a buff for anyone and everyone who tanks HP. Not just the underperforming shield-tankers; you've somehow managed to squeeze in a substantial buff for armor tankers as well. 2A. There's more to TTK than base HP values. Otherwise, folks wouldn't run ferro or reactive plates. 2B. Sure. But I doubt that any member of CPM would knowingly support changes which would worsen overall balance or detrimentally impact NPE. I imagine that most CPM would agree that "grow the player base" should rank among our top priorities. Reinforcing the predominant, proto-friendly meta will not help in that cause. I include you in this assessment of CPM. I believe you mean well, even when you're dead wrong. I don't think that you recognize King HP for the problem it is. 2C. I agree that Dust isn't and shouldn't become a twitch shooter, but I also believe that there should be consequence to making mistakes, being caught unaware and being out-positioned/out-played. Stacking brick and shields should not be made a substitute for smart play. 3. A vet fails to check his surroundings, advances from cover, and is gunned down from behind by a newbro. A newbro gets the drop on a vet, watches as he advances from cover, guns him down from behind ... and dies to spin-and-win. Which player should feel cheated? Which player is more likely to quit Dust and play other games? 4. 100% in favor of better armor-v-shield balance. Always have been. I'm simply opposed to solutions which will further entrench King HP.
What does any of this have to do with Shield Standardization and design methodology?
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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