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DeathwindRising
Titans of Phoenix
1
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Posted - 2015.09.21 00:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Meh, maybe it will all be fine.
If scouts need buffing CCP could always role back some of the cloak nerfs a bit.
If sentinels need buffing CCP could always role back some of the HMG nerfs a bit.
If shield tanking needs more of a buff, there are ways.
Maybe people won't dual tank. dual tanking will always be a thing unless doing so is directly penalized. I've suggested doing so, but I'm outvoted.
you dont outright penalize dual tanking. you make it impossible to make a viable fit.
meaning the pg and cpu cost of a dual tank would leave you running sidearms with no equipment. that would solve everything naturally.
the easiest way would be a fitting bonus to the modules. either increase fitting cost of the modules or reduce fitting capacity.
im also wondering about the overall design here. regarding caldari suits mostly, their slower suits need more regen than the more mobile suits |
DeathwindRising
Titans of Phoenix
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 12:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
Devadander wrote:To clarify: We have indeed seen wonders suggested in the past that went stale within weeks.
I can see where this leads, and its glorious.
But, the steam can't stop once this starts rolling. This isn't something that can be drug out over a year and expect to have any shield players left. The initial change will leave us balanced... but out-supported. Things have to move quickly.
On that note, the more we buck and argue, the longer it will take. See the big picture and you will be on board.
Nobody runs more shield fits than me, sorry for all the heat. o7
lies lol.
ive run shield fits since the beginning of time!! |
DeathwindRising
Titans of Phoenix
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 13:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Devander, it goes...
Cal > Min > Gal > Amarr. Aeon just doesn't have them ordered in that manner on the spreadsheet. This is the primary method by which recharge delays are weighted.
The fastest recharge delay goes to the lowest HP within the race, slowest goes to the highest HP. Recharge rate also falls into this range as well.
To recap: This is based off of baseline suit HP and weighted by racial dependency upon shields.
So within the racial bounds, understanding that cal are to be hands down the best and amarr hands down the worst at shield regen...
Scout > Assault > Logistics > Commando > Sentinel
Or in layman's terms:
Skinny > Middleweight > Fatty
This proposal only accounts for recharge rates and base recharge delay.
I am poking at the depleted delays, and the extender tweaks currently.
If I did my rotten work correctly the depleted delays will actually be shorter for shield suits and then push out until the amarr at the back end enjoy longer depleted delays than recharge delays while caldari suits tend to have shorter depleted delays.
Aeon's post is part of the equation.
Once we're done with the baseline stats if they are chosen to use we watch with a magnifying glass, analyze and tweak upward or downward as needed, then look at the other shield modules if need be.
If at that point the shield modules cannot be tweaked fairly, THEN we look at punching armor in the gut.
Just a little.
But making shields competitive should be doable.
Then once we have shields stabilized at a competitive level and the TTK averages in the game are settled, we can begin looking at the oft-misidentified "secondary" module options. I know I'm not happy about precision and range enhancers. High slots have a grand total of what, three useful module types?
Kincats and cardiac regs work great, but those are low slots. High slots are pretty much Damage mods, shields, shield regen. The rest are either niche items or nearly exclusively used by a few scouts (precision mods).
Honestly once we can put the tank imbalance behind us I want to figure out what can be used to increase high slot variety.
faster regen on lower HP suits? why? when we rebalanced the armor regen rates, the gal scout had the best. then we all found out how that actually turned out in the field, and nerfed it.
armor regen rate used to follow a design where the commando had the best regen, the scout had the worst, the logi had better regen than the assault, and the sentinel had the best HP.
but that design has changed slightly in past months, the reality of things hasnt. armor sentinels are slow but can receive remote reps. this means that shield sentinels would need higher than normal regen also, UNLESS we introduce shield support options. but its never been confirmed that those options are ever going to come out.
the reason i say that slower shield suits need more regen is because theres no shield counter to the armor sentinel being repped.
and like devander said... ill be pretty pissed if armor suits start to regen shields viably compared to caldari suits. its also pretty clear that by suggesting depleted shield delays be shorter than normal delays, that we are encouraging shield tankers to treat their shields as some kind of buffer similar to how armor tankers use shields. If your shields drop to zero on a shield suit, you screwed up. there shouldnt be any built in hand holding. the biggest issue for most people running shield suits is that they try to fit them like armor suits and run them the same way. theres a big difference between armor and shield tanking |
DeathwindRising
Titans of Phoenix
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 14:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:
faster regen on lower HP suits? why? when we rebalanced the armor regen rates, the gal scout had the best. then we all found out how that actually turned out in the field, and nerfed it.
Quick fact check: The GalScout's regen had little if anything to do with it being OP/FoTM following 1.8. Assault Lite was able to pack on the HP and still beat scans thanks to cloak's active damp bonus. This was pre-Assault buff, so Assault Lite HP levels weren't far removed from Assault. Also, Scout passive scans were much stronger pre-falloff and they remained strong even while cloaked (cloakblind came later). Further, cloak operation was much different then; not only did it afford a higher damp bonus, but it also had higher reserves and could be toggled on/off near instantly, which brought about fire-from-cloak problems. In a nutshell, Assault Lite was able to pull-off Assault-like HP levels and still beat scans, while also benefiting from superior mobility & wiggle, far better passives and 2 EQ slots. Not to mention, fire-from-cloak. There were lots of problems w/Assault Lite. Regen might've been among them, but it certainly wasn't a big one.
the arguement aginst the regen was that it was high enough that you didnt need a rep mod, and so you could simply stack plates which led to the HP being much higher than desired. when you add everything else in it just painted a picture of this OP suit. I remember the regen rate was one of the first things they changed on the suit though before all the other stuff. |
DeathwindRising
Titans of Phoenix
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 00:09:00 -
[5] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:I know we are getting off topic here but I don't understand, from a design perspective, how shorter depleted delays than non-depleted can be a good thing. Why would you want to encourage shield tankers to go into armour? The current method makes for much better gameplay.
And just a correction on precision mods. You are more likely to find them on a logi than a scout, where they are very effective. I also have an assault fitted with them, though I doubt that's common. It's not encouragement to go into armor. It's a higher likelihood of survival if you escape. Waitting 6-8 seconds if yo manage to survive being put into armor (unlikely) is an eternity. And i forgot about the precision logi. I stand corrected.
6-8 seconds means youre not fitting the shield regulators. or, you using an armor suit.
you can easily get the delays under 2 seconds and the depleted under 3 seconds if you use the regulators.
if youre an armor suit trying to shield tank, then tough luck with your delays.
if youre not using the shield regulators, then how can anyone complain about their shield delays being too long? |
DeathwindRising
Titans of Phoenix
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 00:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:So why not lower the regen stats for all amar and gallente shield regen... then balance the number within the race logically. I am not understanding why this isn't acceptable short of ' we need to buff gallente assaults incase shield extenders are percentage based in 3 years so that one person can shield tank a gallente assault suit for no reason'.
Shield suit shield stats = 1
Hybrid suit shield stats = 0.5
Armor suit shield stats = 0.00000000000000005
Not shield 1
Hybrid .95
Armor .93
ive honestly avoided mentioning the actual numbers proposed simply because they were so incredibly crazy on the armor suits.
those numbers would let me run viable shield tanks on armor tanking suits due to slot layouts alone |
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