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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
415
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Posted - 2015.09.18 23:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
"Unified Theories" sound good, but I can't get behind the proposed buffs in the HP department. These will only lead to a widening of the performance gap between both Vet & Newbro and HP-oriented & Non-HP-oriented playstyles. Both of these are bad for Dust, and I can't see how the benefits of this proposal will outweigh the drawbacks.
A little late in response to this, but here it goes: There would be little to no changes involved in the direct HP of the suits under the proposal as I am understanding it. Issues with Newbros vs Vets would not be significantly effected by these changes, as all suits at all tiers would inherit the same stats (thank you lite-tiericide/Tankicide). Currently, as I understand it, this proposal does not include any module changes, so we do not have the issues of module scaling involved...so the issues of Vet vs Newbro aren't really relevant in this thread yet. And as these are base stats, and include overall buffs to base regeneration stats, I fail to see how this hurts non-hp oriented playstyles, as fitting the only "HP Oriented" modules (Shield Recharge modules and shield Regulators) becomes less of an issue under this proposal, freeing up that slot for something like a codebreaker or Cardiac Regulator.
@Aeon: Overall , since you're planning on the 2.1 of this proposal to have the logi/assault switched around in terms of regen, this seems like a solid basis for things, although as I stated in the previous thread...maybe a Standardized Regen Rate per Role might be an interesting way to go as well.
As many people know I have a lot of things to say on shield delay...but I do not think this is the proper time to bring them up
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
415
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Posted - 2015.09.19 04:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:I agree that the shield numbers need to be refined, as they're all over the place now. However, why on God's green earth would we buff armor tanking suits at all? Repping a few more HP per second, sure. Like 5 HP more max. I do not understand why the armor based suits need any type of shield buff what so ever.  Armor suits would have no weakness with these proposed numbers. If anything it would encourage dual tanking and King HP even more...
It's not intended as a buff or nerf overall...it's designed as a proposal to standardize the design on shields in general, in similar line to what happened with Speed/HP. This proposal is about making sure we have a standardized framework to work around when proposing buffs and nerfs in the future. Without a change like this, we don't have the proper context with which to propose buffs or nerfs to shield or armor.
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
417
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Posted - 2015.09.19 22:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
Mina Longstrike wrote:
Getting into a discussion of the modules themselves, while in theory HP should = HP shield dropsuits pay much more in terms of fitting costs for their individual points of hp (and take much more damage from anti-shield weaponry)... and the existence of modules that provide 'cheap hp' and functionally don't have drawbacks like reactives or ferroscales complicates matters a great deal. I know you guys don't want to discuss armor modules here, but I think that's somewhat wrong because in truth they ARE part of the issue. Lower health pools with higher proportional damage intake plus higher fitting cost per point of hp and it's easy to see why people find them weak.
So much this. I've been doing an examination of shield vs armor modules for a while, and came up with something I call "Fitting Power," to examine the total combined cost of fitting modules, and the benefit given for those modules. The data is in this spreadsheet. This should demonstrate some of the problems that shield is having module side compared to armor, and should demonstrate where stick style dual tanking fixes should fall.
Mina Longstrike wrote:
When comparing shield tanking to armor tanking, often the biggest issue is that armor NEVER stops repping and with some of the buffs to armor repairers their reps can often be in the 20-30hp/s range, which is as good as or better than some shield recharge values if shield isn't interrupted: and as I've demonstrated with numbers in a previous thread discussing inhibition values almost everything stops shield recharge even well outside of its optimal.
Which is a big problem I've had with the shield delay mechanics in dust since...well...I tried to go as a Caldari suit back in beta. In addition to being able to stack high repair rates that cannot be stopped, armor has a number of choices of support equipment, some of which does not require another player to assist them with provided their suit has equipment slots (looking at you nanohives).
Another problem we're facing in this discussion is that for shields to work properly, they need both excellent stats on suits and modules, whereas armor only really needs their modules to be effective.
Some Regen Numbers I spitballed back in the first thread
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
420
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Posted - 2015.09.20 18:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:
The foundational method makes the situation easier to assess and address.
Which seems to be what people aren't getting. As I understand it, this thread is about finding a foundational method that makes more sense than the other ones, so we have a predictable framework to work within
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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