Over-simplification with absolutely nothing provided as far as feedback besides infantile repetition. You're welcome to propose changes with rational and reasonable backing, but parroting "Armor is bad" over and over isn't going to accomplish much.

What does any of this have to do with Shield Standardization and design methodology?

How exactly does a buff to the GalAssault regen/delay translate to better armor-v-shield interplay?

Everything. I'm openly opposed to further entrenching King HP, and I've explained precisely why. Negative feedback and concerns are absolutely constructive feedback, whether you want to hear them or not. There are other ways to fix armor-v-shield interplay. I'd encourage you to explore alternatives. Even those that -- god forbid -- might take a toll on your personal playstyle.

It's a good thing that decisions aren't dictated by you or Doc DDD, isn't it?

Adipem provide alternative values and math or quit sh*tposting. We realize you're salty that you're not on the CPM and none of us are on board with Scout Master Race.

Get over it already.

Again, you're welcome to propose your own system that provides a baseline/foundation for shield balancing and I wish you the best of luck in trying to fix it. However, I think this little back-and-forth has gone on long enough as there is nothing useful being gained from this and it is almost entirely non-sequitur to what this entire thread is trying to accomplish. I apologize if that effort is not clear to you and I will try to make future proposals as clear cut as possible.



Shield Stats 3.0 will include all Gallente suits having 0 HP, 0 Recharge/Repair. My assurances.

To check out caldari commando stats, I took it to advanced. Put my SP where my mouth is, or erm might have been before stating my opinion on whether your proposal would helped it or would that make it OP.

Well, it need far more than just a shield recharge buff. Far more than the min commando. Its the only commando suit out of my 3 advanced commando suits (Amarr and Minmatar) that I cannot fit a single proto light weapon on without both a pg and cpu mod.

Minando has Wyrokami or Freedom MD + BK-42, damage mod, 2x shield extender, plate, rep.
Amando has Kal tactical sniper + GB9 breach, 2 damage mods 2 plates rep

Calmando has Kal Tac Tactical sniper + SB39 RR, 2 shield mods, PG mod, 1 plate + 1 cpu mod.



I downgraded the calmando to a adv tactical sniper + RR, and its shield rates + delay are still abysmaly low. You have to run regulators, but you only have space for one, because you still need an armor repper.

A round about way of saying i approve for the calmando.

I agree that the shield numbers need to be refined, as they're all over the place now. However, why on God's green earth would we buff armor tanking suits at all? Repping a few more HP per second, sure. Like 5 HP more max. I do not understand why the armor based suits need any type of shield buff what so ever.

Armor suits would have no weakness with these proposed numbers. If anything it would encourage dual tanking and King HP even more...

The reason it works is because Gallente aren't exactly being saved by their shields on a regular basis. All it is is a small buffer before they get into their main tank. I don't see how a small buff to delay is going to make Gal suits suddenly OP. That's like worrying that sentinels getting a 0.1 m/s sprint speed buff will make them god mode: it's a buff, sure, but not one to even warrant attention, much less worry.

It's not intended as a buff or nerf overall...it's designed as a proposal to standardize the design on shields in general, in similar line to what happened with Speed/HP. This proposal is about making sure we have a standardized framework to work around when proposing buffs and nerfs in the future. Without a change like this, we don't have the proper context with which to propose buffs or nerfs to shield or armor.

I initially had a very long drawn out post about the concepts and principles of design but I think those of you who are smart enough to use illustrations and context clues can easily understand how frustrating some of these comments are once I provide you something to look at. Those of you who can't... Well, let's just say that god loves all of his children.

http://discoverdesign.org/files/images/general/design_process_0.gif

We're in between the Brainstorm and Analyze and Feedback portions, respectively. I'll let you figure out what that means for why getting bent out of shape over the numbers presented in this proposal is just downright silly.

If it is anything I've learned from this experience it is that my proposals, from now on, will simply not include numbers or values (at least not publicly) because the Dust 514 community has shown, without a shadow of a doubt, that they cannot remain objective when numbers - even conceptual and placeholder - are presented and will don Prototype Tinfoil in an effort to destroy a perceived threat while completely ignoring the entire premise of a proposal.

Run on sentences aside I'm starting to understand very clearly why CCP simply doesn't talk 90% of the time.

Right. Because you're smarter than us, Aeon. Keep telling yourself that.

I'd like to thank you, specifically, for keeping this thread on the front page for as long as you have.

I initially had a very long drawn out post about the concepts and principles of design but I think those of you who are smart enough to use illustrations and context clues can easily understand how frustrating some of these comments are once I provide you something to look at. Those of you who can't... Well, let's just say that god loves all of his children.

http://discoverdesign.org/files/images/general/design_process_0.gif

We're in between the Brainstorm and Analyze and Feedback portions, respectively. I'll let you figure out what that means for why getting bent out of shape over the numbers presented in this proposal is just downright silly.

If it is anything I've learned from this experience it is that my proposals, from now on, will simply not include numbers or values (at least not publicly) because the Dust 514 community has shown, without a shadow of a doubt, that they cannot remain objective when numbers - even conceptual and placeholder - are presented and will don Prototype Tinfoil in an effort to destroy a perceived threat while completely ignoring the entire premise of a proposal.

Run on sentences aside I'm starting to understand very clearly why CCP simply doesn't talk 90% of the time.

I dont see how this is helpful mate.

I know that you're better than this so please explain in simple terms how a buff to the shield stats of armour tanking suits is going to help you balance shield modules and fittings?

People have a problem with your proposal because before anything else it instantly smacks you in the face that certain suits appear to be getting a big buff. I look at the bonus you propose to give to the Amarr assault, the Gallente Assault, the Gallente Scout and feel that you are giving me even more of a reason to not run a primarily shielded suit.

Without proposals for how this will help you change the actual modules I can only see this.

TL/DR: Set a racial regen baseline common for all racial suits. Move scouts and sentinels beyond that baseline for reasons of hit and run (scouts) and defence (sentinels). Deal with armour - shield balance separately by buffing shield regen mods.

-snip-.

1) Essentially what we have now, is medium suits as the benchmark for shield regen. Scouts then have better regen to emphasise hit and run gameplay. Sentinels have better regen as they are the most tanky class and need to rely on self-regen, since there is no option to support shield regen remotely. Also remember that the game is designed so that the specialised suits (heavies, and lights) have better base stats in trade for less slots, in order to push them to certain roles, in comparison to mediums that have more slots to allow more choice in what stats they want their suit to have. I don't see anything wrong with these principles.

2.) I appreciate that the specific numbers are up for debate, but whatever values are chosen, this design principle will always result in a relative nerf to sentinels and scouts compared to mediums. It could be argued that shield tanking sentinels and scouts are fine, and it is the shield tanking mediums that need a buff. Now, I know balance isn't the goal here, it's clear design principle. But this leads us to another problem.

3) If base regen stats on mediums are too good it discourages the use of regen mods. Yes rechargers are buffed by base recharge being buffed, since they are percentage based. However the opposite is true of regulators as they are a percentage reduction. Buffing base regen also amounts to a buff to extenders, further encouraging the fitting of purely extenders, which leads to dual tanking, and a boring "king hp" meta.

4) So with medium suit regen kept constant, to maintain the proposed regen relationship of heavy < medium < scout, sentinel shield regen would need a significant nerf. This presents a problem because how to you buff sentinels in a way that makes up for nerfing their shield regen? It's a thing that shield tanking sentinels rely on heavily, as there is no remote shield regen option in game.

My entire suit list is shield. I don't feel like this will make the difference we need.

We need to look into racial bonuses much like eve, where you get your normal stats for skilling each level, but the frame will have a set bonus just for being them.
This could enhance shield tanking without armor suits getting more love than they already have.

Look at the modules, tinker with them, give caldari a shield module fitting bonus.

Anything but this.

The cal assault just keeps getting worse and worse.....

How would that address the problem of shield modules being percentage based having to handle up on this ?

If all caldari suits had a shield module fitting reduction, this thread would not exist.