How would that address the problem of shield modules being percentage based having to handle up on this ?

Is it possible to have suits or BPOs that only show up in the Special Contracts with some of these stats so ideas could be playtested without affecting normal matches?

I can't even begin to wrap my head around the Caldari Assault getting higher shield recharge and less shield delay being a bad thing.... And no, the thread does -not- suggest that all suits have a shield problem, it suggests that all shield modules have a problem because of reasons that have already been well explained at least three times now.

Kind of a loaded question. I don't think it would fix everything, it might help fix Caldari but it won't address the core issue being described in this thread. It would just be a bandaid solution for one race that will inevitably have to be addressed later on as the game progresses and develops.

I'll go line by line here because I think there are key aspects to address which your post raises o7

I won't try to classify everyone but when I say shield tanking I mean Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente > Amarr which I believe is a key distinction, as this is about providing a unified conceptual foundation for overall game balance, not a light buff to one race due to the current meta situation.


They all need to fit within the same system/method regardless of where their raw stat profiles ultimately land.
If there's a problem with the stats they can be tuned within the method, if there's a problem with the method not the specific stats then now is the perfect time to address that at a macro (not current meta/numbers) level and find an alternate method. The only non-negotiable aspect here AFAIK is whether or not there is a method in place at all. There needs to be a method, some method. It can be this one, or another, but the prior status of non-unified profiles is something that needs to be moved beyond.



It's not a question of what's "fair" per se, it's a question of having a viable foundation/framework for long term development and polish. Ultimately that should result in a fair and balanced game you are absolutely correct, but this is not about a single step direct redress to the current meta, nor is it about using history to assess which race, role, or sub-combo now deserves their turn to be our shiny new FotM. It is in fact about building something so as to preclude that type of pattern as much as possible.

I have zero racial bias in Dust, I play them all, I have them all to proto in more than one role, my min scout is stronger than people seem to give it credit for, my cal scout is doing quite well for itself, my cal logi cries itself to sleep every night, my manndos all seem "out of breath" a lot of the time, and my Min Assault - even with the semi-recent changes - still kind of laughs at most of the other suits and tells them to HTFU.

But this isn't about hyper-focus on one race, this is about having a foundational methodology so that other things within that, such as possible racial imbalances, can be addressed properly.
In essence the question of "is Cal in a good space" comes after this question, not during, before, or instead of.
Unless of course - specifically with regards to shields - you have an objection with the proposed racial hierarchy of
Cal > Min > Gal > Am. If you object to that then please do elaborate on why so it can be taken into account as part of the feedback process.

There's tons of relevant and accurate feedback out there, and getting it all is worthwhile, but it is not all relevant to every thread or topic no matter how accurate or pertinent it is.

Cheers,
Cross

o/ Cross

Here's an alternative method:
Google Doc

Despite what the bubble chart on Page 1 suggests, there is in fact a clear progression in current shield stats. Present values were not assigned at random. The Google Doc above attempts to clean up the existing progression to make it more clear (labeled Step 1), and then it achieves the target inverse relationship between Recovery and HP potential (labeled Step 2).

This model diverges most evidently from Aeon's in that a more logical framework is established without substantial buffs to shield performance of Armor Tankers. This isn't a comprehensive solution, rather (like Aeon's model) this is a framework upon which to build.

Its worth noting that the regen nerf is probably not the reason shield tanks arent used anymore, more likely the problem for shield tanks is that armor tanks are way, way better.

Yeah if shield suits are not able to hold a viable place then balances is skewed.
Equally, if 1 merc (running shields, or armor, or a pink bunny suit, doesn't matter) is as potent as 2 mercs running an alternate fitting type then we still don't have balance.

Having the possibility of shield support actions thus becomes rather important because then it's down to player and team choices which options to bring to the field. It's opportunity cost.

Currently there's some degree of catch 22 in that if a squad of 4 shield based mercs can't stand against 4 armor based mercs 1-2 of which are support then there's clearly not functional balance.

However if 1 shield based merc can stand against 1 armor based merc with reps (meaning the shield merc is winning a 2v1) then there is also not functional balance.

It is also why the first step, the codification of a clear conceptual method, is so vital and cannot be done within the context of tweaking current numbers especially on mods etc
It is needful to break it down into it's simplest possible state and move upward from there into details which will tune things.
Honestly almost any number set is going to end up being altered after its actual in game effects are seen, so getting caught looking for the perfect set of numbers prior to deployment will likely just bog down making any changes at all.

Devander, it goes...

Cal > Min > Gal > Amarr. Aeon just doesn't have them ordered in that manner on the spreadsheet. This is the primary method by which recharge delays are weighted.

The fastest recharge delay goes to the lowest HP within the race, slowest goes to the highest HP. Recharge rate also falls into this range as well.

To recap: This is based off of baseline suit HP and weighted by racial dependency upon shields.

So within the racial bounds, understanding that cal are to be hands down the best and amarr hands down the worst at shield regen...

Scout > Assault > Logistics > Commando > Sentinel

Or in layman's terms:

Skinny > Middleweight > Fatty

This proposal only accounts for recharge rates and base recharge delay.

I am poking at the depleted delays, and the extender tweaks currently.

If I did my rotten work correctly the depleted delays will actually be shorter for shield suits and then push out until the amarr at the back end enjoy longer depleted delays than recharge delays while caldari suits tend to have shorter depleted delays.

Aeon's post is part of the equation.

Once we're done with the baseline stats if they are chosen to use we watch with a magnifying glass, analyze and tweak upward or downward as needed, then look at the other shield modules if need be.

If at that point the shield modules cannot be tweaked fairly, THEN we look at punching armor in the gut.

Just a little.

But making shields competitive should be doable.

Then once we have shields stabilized at a competitive level and the TTK averages in the game are settled, we can begin looking at the oft-misidentified "secondary" module options. I know I'm not happy about precision and range enhancers. High slots have a grand total of what, three useful module types?

Kincats and cardiac regs work great, but those are low slots. High slots are pretty much Damage mods, shields, shield regen. The rest are either niche items or nearly exclusively used by a few scouts (precision mods).

Honestly once we can put the tank imbalance behind us I want to figure out what can be used to increase high slot variety.

lies lol.

ive run shield fits since the beginning of time!!

Calsent isn't being changed. It's shield regen stats are staying as they are now.

Currently a calsent with a low slslot regulator can get about a half secondd depleted delay and under 2 sec recharge delay. That's not changing.

So "worst regen stats" are actually taking the current best and using them as a baseline. Calsents will retain the best depleted delay. The only reason IMHO that the calsent is even playable right now is because it recovers so fast after eating damage.

I'm also working on extender additions

If we consider the current extender equivalent to ferroscale, I'm building a proposal for a plate and reactive analog.

The reactive analog would be the "no penalty" extender.

I'm not being willfully ignorant or disingenuous. I'm looking at his numbers. Explain to me how buffing shield recovery and recharge delay of armor tankers, while holding those values constant for shield tankers, isn't a direct buff to armor tankers? Use the crayon if you need. I'm not following.

Hypothetical: If shield tankers were outperforming all else, would it be wise to increase their base armor and armor regen values, while holding those values for armor tankers constant?