DUST Search - [CPM Feedback] Shield Stats (version two)

Varoth Drac wrote:

Breakin Stuff wrote:

Varoth Drac wrote:

It's interesting to note that for my recovery time based proposal, I have only had to make very minor changes to assaults. They already have approximately the same shield recovery times as each other.

Perhaps this is already CCP's design, at least as far as assaults are concerned.

so why do you have the minlogi taking a shield regen nerf?

that makes zero sense in any context. 15 regen/sec makes shield rechargers and energizers largely useless

You seem to object to heavy HP suits getting a shield buff, but all of your armor tanked suits get some kind of shield buff.

I think you are misunderstanding the premise of my proposal. It is based on shield recovery time. Minmatar logis have unusually low shields, and more armour to compensate. With less shields it takes less time for them to regen, therefore they don't need as high a regen rate. If their shield and armour hp values were rebalanced they could retain their regen.

And since when am I against heavy HP suits getting a shield buff? My proposal has Caldari commandos receiving the largest buff, and in general commandos and sentinels are getting buffed more than the others. Min scouts the possible exception.

Mainly though, in comparison to the OP's proposal, sentinel shield regen will be considerably faster when compared to assaults and logis. So this is a much better deal for heavies than the OP's proposal.

WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.


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Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.19 02:39:00 - [1] - Quote It's a good thing that decisions aren't dictated by you or Doc DDD, isn't it? Adipem provide alternative values and math or quit sh*tposting. We realize you're salty that you're not on the CPM and none of us are on board with Scout Master Race. Get over it already. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.20 19:05:00 - [2] - Quote Quote: its widely believed that the gallente assault is over performing, By whom? The galassault and minassault seem to be solid performers when not stacked completely for HP. The amarr assault is competitive when stacked for plates and reps or when fit to ferroscale/ speed meta. Caldari are the only assaults that fail to find a solid place on the field. Why? Because shield tanking is handicapped. Min fits can shield tank but there's little reson to bother. It takes too long. Kincats are a better option. Shield tanking gallente and amarr is a waste of slots no matter what you do. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.20 20:04:00 - [3] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: It's interesting to note that for my recovery time based proposal, I have only had to make very minor changes to assaults. They already have approximately the same shield recovery times as each other. Perhaps this is already CCP's design, at least as far as assaults are concerned. so why do you have the minlogi taking a shield regen nerf? that makes zero sense in any context. 15 regen/sec makes shield rechargers and energizers largely useless You seem to object to heavy HP suits getting a shield buff, but all of your armor tanked suits get some kind of shield buff. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.20 20:25:00 - [4] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: It's interesting to note that for my recovery time based proposal, I have only had to make very minor changes to assaults. They already have approximately the same shield recovery times as each other. Perhaps this is already CCP's design, at least as far as assaults are concerned. so why do you have the minlogi taking a shield regen nerf? that makes zero sense in any context. 15 regen/sec makes shield rechargers and energizers largely useless You seem to object to heavy HP suits getting a shield buff, but all of your armor tanked suits get some kind of shield buff. I think you are misunderstanding the premise of my proposal. It is based on shield recovery time. Minmatar logis have unusually low shields, and more armour to compensate. With less shields it takes less time for them to regen, therefore they don't need as high a regen rate. If their shield and armour hp values were rebalanced they could retain their regen. And since when am I against heavy HP suits getting a shield buff? My proposal has Caldari commandos receiving the largest buff, and in general commandos and sentinels are getting buffed more than the others. Min scouts the possible exception. Mainly though, in comparison to the OP's proposal, sentinel shield regen will be considerably faster when compared to assaults and logis. So this is a much better deal for heavies than the OP's proposal. the other half of the proposal aeon is working on is mine, I'm doing the depleted delays and shield module tweaks. Aeon's assessment of where the recharge delays appears to be spot on. the objective is to make shields GOOD again, on par with armor for utility IF you take it on a 1 for 1 basis and throw the armor tool out the window for the consideration. If shields are good across the board, then the caldari and minmatar benefit most solidly no matter what because the shield regeneration modules start with a sronger baseline to work from. Further, the min logi can shield tank rather well, it's slot layout determines that it can speed tank, armor tank, shield tank or DPS tank. Using the baseline shield/armor stats is taking a small piece of the picture and making that the sum. This is not a stealth "Buff armor suits" thread. This is hunting a cohesive and coherent curve that can be used as a baseline so that if things need adjusting the whole curve can shift equally instead of the haphazard shuffle of balance we have had in the past. We, the CPM are seeking a LINEAR, and LOGICAL progression of shield recharge delays that does not use arbitrary metrics. For example: Making gallente and amarr shield stats the same is a bad idea IMHO because the amarr have a higher proportionate armor to shield ratio than the gallente assault does. since the amarr are less dependent on shields and more focused on armor buffer, why should they enjoy equal shield protection to the other armor race who cannot match them for raw HP? WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.20 21:04:00 - [5] - Quote Aeon's also creates a linear progression along that same slant, what is the major objection to his numbers? What makes them bad? Why is this curve he proposes a bad thing that needs to be opposed and changed? If the answer is "I don't like it" then that's a valid answer, but the issue is getting confused by irrelevant and seemingly random statements from various individuals ranging from "Gallente are overperforming" which has nothing to do with this proposal or in my assessment, reality, to "King HP" and "Spin and win" which are both anecdotal, deliberately inflammatory and irrelevant. I've already TORTUROUSLY picked Aeon's proposal apart screaming to the point where he was willing to give up talking to me entirely in private, and I am now finally satisfied with what he's cooking in the stew pot. Cross has picked apart Aeon's proposal (much more politely than I have) and so have the others. So tell me, objectively, with numbers. What is insufficient in Aeon's shield regeneration overhaul proposal that is worth the amount of vehement opposition I have seen in this thread? As Valroth CORRECTLY assessed: This proposal is about a method. the numbers can be tweaked to fit the setup we need, at will. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.20 23:47:00 - [6] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Meh, maybe it will all be fine. If scouts need buffing CCP could always role back some of the cloak nerfs a bit. If sentinels need buffing CCP could always role back some of the HMG nerfs a bit. If shield tanking needs more of a buff, there are ways. Maybe people won't dual tank. dual tanking will always be a thing unless doing so is directly penalized. I've suggested doing so, but I'm outvoted. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.21 01:09:00 - [7] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: "King HP" and "Spin and win" are both (1) anecdotal, (2) deliberately inflammatory and (3) irrelevant. 1. False 2. False 3. False Because you say so? What does the market data say? What does PC usage say? What does Rattati say? CCP Rattati wrote: King HP is in for a surprise ... market data without any other comparative data means... Nothing. PC usage is, as I understand it, shifting to point-blank speed meta rather than heavy HP meta. I am informed that sentinels are getting their asses pasted left and right. King HP indeed. And Rattati? I'll ask. Your rattati quote is cute, so where is the quote from, so I can read the full context? Your snippet means jack. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.21 01:31:00 - [8] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Of course , Breakin. Everyone else's observations, experiences and concerns can be freely dismissed. Market data doesn't matter; frankly, it means nothing. Nothing matters except for your own anecdotal experience and observations because (A) you aren't a non-competitive player performing poorly enough to fluctuate between Hi and Lo Mu queues, (B) you know exactly what's going on with competitive meta because you participate in PC regularly and (C) you know all about every suit and every playstyle because you run them all regularly and run them well; you're an expert in all things, which is why you do not bounce back-and-forth between Hi and Lo Mu queue. Your anecdotal observations count, and only your anecdotal observations count. Am I getting this right? https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2492622#post2492622 Bravo adipem. I'm not going to shut up. Ever. But Carry on Adipem Ad Hominem WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.21 01:41:00 - [9] - Quote Right. Data from a near-year-old post from last december. Bravo. Done with you adipem, You don't entertain a dissenting opinion, ever, for any reason. I see no reason to do so with you or entertain your conversation further. Later. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.21 02:06:00 - [10] - Quote I have never seen you challenge an idea without attacking the character of the person with the idea. Your attempts at character assassination aren't seen in a positive light. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.21 04:12:00 - [11] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: You're all a bunch of scrubs. Carry on. ... Agreed. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.21 08:05:00 - [12] - Quote Devander, it goes... Cal > Min > Gal > Amarr. Aeon just doesn't have them ordered in that manner on the spreadsheet. This is the primary method by which recharge delays are weighted. The fastest recharge delay goes to the lowest HP within the race, slowest goes to the highest HP. Recharge rate also falls into this range as well. To recap: This is based off of baseline suit HP and weighted by racial dependency upon shields. So within the racial bounds, understanding that cal are to be hands down the best and amarr hands down the worst at shield regen... Scout > Assault > Logistics > Commando > Sentinel Or in layman's terms: Skinny > Middleweight > Fatty This proposal only accounts for recharge rates and base recharge delay. I am poking at the depleted delays, and the extender tweaks currently. If I did my rotten work correctly the depleted delays will actually be shorter for shield suits and then push out until the amarr at the back end enjoy longer depleted delays than recharge delays while caldari suits tend to have shorter depleted delays. Aeon's post is part of the equation. Once we're done with the baseline stats if they are chosen to use we watch with a magnifying glass, analyze and tweak upward or downward as needed, then look at the other shield modules if need be. If at that point the shield modules cannot be tweaked fairly, THEN we look at punching armor in the gut. Just a little. But making shields competitive should be doable. Then once we have shields stabilized at a competitive level and the TTK averages in the game are settled, we can begin looking at the oft-misidentified "secondary" module options. I know I'm not happy about precision and range enhancers. High slots have a grand total of what, three useful module types? Kincats and cardiac regs work great, but those are low slots. High slots are pretty much Damage mods, shields, shield regen. The rest are either niche items or nearly exclusively used by a few scouts (precision mods). Honestly once we can put the tank imbalance behind us I want to figure out what can be used to increase high slot variety. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.21 15:42:00 - [13] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: I know we are getting off topic here but I don't understand, from a design perspective, how shorter depleted delays than non-depleted can be a good thing. Why would you want to encourage shield tankers to go into armour? The current method makes for much better gameplay. And just a correction on precision mods. You are more likely to find them on a logi than a scout, where they are very effective. I also have an assault fitted with them, though I doubt that's common. It's not encouragement to go into armor. It's a higher likelihood of survival if you escape. Waitting 6-8 seconds if yo manage to survive being put into armor (unlikely) is an eternity. And i forgot about the precision logi. I stand corrected. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.21 15:45:00 - [14] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: faster regen on lower HP suits? why? when we rebalanced the armor regen rates, the gal scout had the best. then we all found out how that actually turned out in the field, and nerfed it. Because right now scouts have the highest regen at 50 in the case of caldari. Things are being normalized between scout 50 and sent 30 for now. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.21 15:54:00 - [15] - Quote Devadander wrote: Will the base shield amounts be altered? Specifically, the sentinel? With only one low available, how can it be last and be competitive? Again I only ask because this is my all day every day. I've already lost my two oldest friends to caldari being easy bait... Calsent isn't being changed. It's shield regen stats are staying as they are now. Currently a calsent with a low slslot regulator can get about a half secondd depleted delay and under 2 sec recharge delay. That's not changing. So "worst regen stats" are actually taking the current best and using them as a baseline. Calsents will retain the best depleted delay. The only reason IMHO that the calsent is even playable right now is because it recovers so fast after eating damage. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.21 16:32:00 - [16] - Quote I'm also working on extender additions If we consider the current extender equivalent to ferroscale, I'm building a proposal for a plate and reactive analog. The reactive analog would be the "no penalty" extender. Basic design philosophy is the closer you push towards armor hp the worse your base recovery rates should be. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.21 16:38:00 - [17] - Quote This is a multi-angle process. Once shields are unscrewed, the next tricks are AV and utility mods. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.21 16:39:00 - [18] - Quote Asad Thahab-Jabal wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I'm also working on extender additions If we consider the current extender equivalent to ferroscale, I'm building a proposal for a plate and reactive analog. The reactive analog would be the "no penalty" extender. Like so? Pretty much WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.21 16:47:00 - [19] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: . I understand that "Step 2" will involve improving shield modules, which will help shield tankers, but make no mistake. Aeon's angling for a buff for armor tankers, unless he has since changed his mind. . This is where you are entertainingly wrong. Tell ya what. If you excise this rediculous premise from your head I'll lay off the "scout master race" taunting. you're letting your distaste for aeon cloud your perception of intent. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.21 16:52:00 - [20] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: Yo CPM! What are your thoughts on allowing damage mods to be placed in low slots as well? Armor tankers get to have the best of both worlds while shield tankers have to choose, and in their low slots they have no choice: regulator and reactives. This is a shield regen thread. Make another thread for that please. Don't knock this one off-topic WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.21 17:12:00 - [21] - Quote Now go rearrange all of the dropsuits in the following order with in order of lowest HP to highest. Calscout, calassault, calogi, calmando, calsent Then do the same for minmatar, then gallente, lastly amarr. Notice a pattern, or does it need to be spelled out in crayon? Accusing aeon of angling for an armor buff is disingenuous and deceptive or it's being blind and willfully ignorant. Either way it's an attack on aeon's motives and thus his character. In any case as long as you cling to that absurdity I have no further use for your input adipem. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.21 17:29:00 - [22] - Quote The calscout and calsent are held constant because they are arguably the best performing in the race. They are the baseline. The assault, logi and commando each receive significant buffs to put them in line with the two actual performing suits. The fact that the calsent is one of the poorest performing sentinels due to raw Hp isn't part of the equation. Then we take the caldari regen valuse and apply a lesser to minmatar. Also scaling from scout to sentinel. But then we get to the gallente and amarr. The shields are paper thin and only last a heartbeat under any fire. The idea that it should take more than 4-5 seconds out of combat to BEGIN recovering as some kind of balance metric is amusing. The only two armor suits with significant shielding are the sentinels. The commando base shields are ok. In neither the case of the sentinel or the commando do they have the slot layout to put forward a shield buffer and regen to be anything but a poor cousin to rhe minmatar but doing so would open low slots for things like damps, range mods (if they didn't suck) and other sundries that might work on an armor suit if they didn't have to completely and utterly sacrifice durability. The 198 HP of a max core galassault isn't going to be the thing that makes or breaks the suit in a fight. It's ability to rock reps and kincats to get in close faster than you can stop him will. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.21 18:07:00 - [23] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: zzZaXxx wrote: You bickering trolls have derailed this discussion with your petty personal grievances. Cease and desist. Best post in this thread. Agreed. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.21 20:44:00 - [24] - Quote Addressing most of the arguments based on "gallente will dual tank" Unfortunately enterprising individiuals playing all races already do that. I'm all in favor of lowering the function synergy between armor and shield mods. But before then shields have to be brought to some semblance of parity. Then the non-HP/regen mods need to be looked at for utility value. If the utility modules in both high and low slots cannot be made more desirable then I think we should look at actively discouraging brickfits via penalties. I think a better solution would be giving value incentive to engage in racial tank doctrines. Amarr and caldari are traditionally armor and shield buffer respectively. Gallente and minmatar rely more on recovery and speed. Incentivizing each race's traditional doctrines should pull some of the "HP mods over all" mindset. HP mods are appropriate to a point. But none of the fits i use, nor any of the people I speak to find all HP mods to be viable as a fitting style. Except amarr sentinels but I personally think that's insane. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.