DUST Search - [CPM Feedback] Shield Stats (version two)

All Channels

General Discussions

[CPM Feedback] Shield Stats (version two)

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.18 17:12:00 - [1] - Quote I quite like it in terms of the relationships between suits. Can't say whether overall it's too much of a buff to shields or not, could be fine. But I guess the point is to come up with the principles first. There are two things I'd change. 1) Delay I think assaults should have a delay in between heavies and lights, equal to logis. Rather than your proposal which has assault delay equal to scouts. The proposal already has sentinel and commando delays equal to each other. It makes a lot of sense to have delays progress like this: light < medium < heavy. Too short a delay on a medium suit encourages dual tanking as it reduces the need and effect of shield regulators. Caldari assaults stacked with armour plates is not something I want to see become common. Also I don't want to see the delay on assaults buffed to scout levels. Just like with sentinels and commandos in your proposal, the hp/regen progression could be maintained between suits of the same size by the regen stat. You have suggested swapping assault and logi regen. So they could have the same delay, with the proposed logi and assault regen swapped, consistent with the approach for sentinels and commandos. 2) Gallente Gallente suits currently have the same shield recharge as Amarr. I don't see any reason for this to change. I think the hp discrepancy between the two is already accounted for. For example, Gallente have superior armour regen. Give them the same shield regen as each other, like now.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.19 12:36:00 - [2] - Quote TL/DR: Set a racial regen baseline common for all racial suits. Move scouts and sentinels beyond that baseline for reasons of hit and run (scouts) and defence (sentinels). Deal with armour - shield balance separately by buffing shield regen mods. Explanation: The more I think about this CMP proposal, the more problems I have with it all. Looking at the current stats, there are some clear patterns and design philosophies, albeit with some outliers. Essentially what we have now, is medium suits as the benchmark for shield regen. Scouts then have better regen to emphasise hit and run gameplay. Sentinels have better regen as they are the most tanky class and need to rely on self-regen, since there is no option to support shield regen remotely. Also remember that the game is designed so that the specialised suits (heavies, and lights) have better base stats in trade for less slots, in order to push them to certain roles, in comparison to mediums that have more slots to allow more choice in what stats they want their suit to have. I don't see anything wrong with these principles. However a more straight forward system may be possible. Commandos are similar to mediums, and are set up with inferior shield regen stats. I think most people agree this should be changed. The proposal here is to change shield regen from medium < sentinel < scout to sentinel < medium < scout. To do this you either massively nerf sentinel regen, or massively buff medium regen. The numbers provided go with the buff mediums option. I appreciate that the specific numbers are up for debate, but whatever values are chosen, this design principle will always result in a relative nerf to sentinels and scouts compared to mediums. It could be argued that shield tanking sentinels and scouts are fine, and it is the shield tanking mediums that need a buff. Now, I know balance isn't the goal here, it's clear design principle. But this leads us to another problem. Buffing shields on all mediums buffs armour tankers as well as shield tankers. It seems that it would be more of a buff to shield tankers, but it is unclear how much more of an advantage they would gain. Again, balance isn't the goal here, and this further emphasises the fact that this is not a balancing exercise. Balancing would need to be considered separately after the design philosophy is pinned down. So, let's think about medium suits in isolation for a moment. Ignoring balance, is it a good idea to change their shield regen stats? I think the key goal here, is to have a system that encourages shield tankers to fit extenders, rechargers/energisers and regulators, whilst leaving some room for some other modules, and encourage armour tankers not to fit shield modules. The system should not be draconian and should leave open the possibility for weird fits such as shield tanking armour suits, vice vera, or dual tanking. However these should not be the optimal fits. If base regen stats on mediums are too good it discourages the use of regen mods. Yes rechargers are buffed by base recharge being buffed, since they are percentage based. However the opposite is true of regulators as they are a percentage reduction. Buffing base regen also amounts to a buff to extenders, further encouraging the fitting of purely extenders, which leads to dual tanking, and a boring "king hp" meta. If medium suit regen is buffed, without targeting specifically at shield/armour balance, light and heavy suits would also need to be buffed to maintain balance. Scouts already have very good shield regen stats, so it would be difficult to buff them in a shield regen update. For this reason I think it would be wise to leave medium suit shield regen at a similar level to what it is now. So with medium suit regen kept constant, to maintain the proposed regen relationship of heavy < medium < scout, sentinel shield regen would need a significant nerf. This presents a problem because how to you buff sentinels in a way that makes up for nerfing their shield regen? It's a thing that shield tanking sentinels rely on heavily, as there is no remote shield regen option in game. I have a proposal to solve this problem: As Aeon proposed in this shield proposal 1. Set shield regen stats equal for all suits of a particular race. BUT Then improve scout shield regen on the basis of specialising the suit for hit and run combat, and improve sentinel shield regen stats on the basis that they are the suits design to be the most defensive, and need better regen rates as they have more hp to regen. Think of these modifications to the design principle in the same way that assault suits are allowed to break the hp/speed curve. Assaults are designed to be both "fast and durable" (see the description in the loadout progression window). Therefore they have more hp and speed than they would otherwise be allowed. Deal with shield to armour balance by buffing shield regen modules. These are modules rarely used by armour tankers or scouts and so will target the buff squarely at the underperforming shield tankers.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.19 15:22:00 - [3] - Quote So I put down some example numbers for my shield regen proposal: Shield regen proposal This is based on the following principles: Racial shield regen stats: Caldari - 30hp/s 5s delay. Minmatar - 25hp/s 6s delay. Gallente/Amarr - 20hp/s 7s delay. Scouts get 50% superior shield regen and delay. This is to facilitate stealthy hit and run combat. Sentinels get 20% superior shield regen and delay. This is to facilitate defensive combat. You will notice from the highlighted buffs and nerfs, that this design results in little change to most suits, except for commandos (especially Caldari) which get buffed. More specifically, sentinels and logis get their regen rate buffed slightly, but their delay nerfed slightly at the same time. Minmatar scouts get their regen nerfed, but their delay buffed. Caldari sentinels recieve a small buff to regen rate. In my opinion this provides a sensible and neat design principle, resulting in very little change to actual balance. With the exception of commandos, particularly Caldari, which get their shield regen buffed. Armour shield balance can be addressed separately. I suggest buffing shield regen mods, since this would specifically target medium and heavy shield tankers, who are the ones that need a buff.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.19 15:34:00 - [4] - Quote Regen, scout only modification Go to tab "Scout only modification". I've added another tab with a slightly simpler paradigm. On tab one you will see stats for the following paradigms: "All racial suits have the same shield regen stats, except for scouts who have a 50% bonus for hit and run." "Caldari have the best regen as primary shield tankers. Minmatar have the next best as they should be functional at shield or armour tanking. Amarr and Gellente are both armour tankers and so should both have the least effective shield regen" This results in a small nerf to Caldari sentinel delay. Other sentinels get their regen buffed, but delay nerfed. This is more simple than tab one, as it only has scouts as the exception. What do people think? Summary: Caldari suits 30hp/s 5s delay Minmatar suits 25hp/s 6s delay Gal/Am suits 20hp/s 7s delay Scouts get +50% modification to shield regen. I think I like this more than my previous idea, which included a 20% modification to sentinels. I think buffs to shield regen mods would both improve shield - armour balance, and counteract the slight shield sentinel nerf that would result from this proposal.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.19 15:58:00 - [5] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Be sure to include written statements as to what defines the implementation of the design pattern. For example: - Caldari are the primary shield tankers and therefore should have a higher regen than other races. - Scouts are hit-and-run focused with low EHP, so should have a higher regen than other roles. Etc. Something that can be easily followed, recognized, and adhered to in future design. Numbers are fantastic for the nuance but the overall design principles are best written. I've modified my last post, and the spreadsheet, to include these statements.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.19 17:18:00 - [6] - Quote Dual tanking can be reduced by making non-tank related mods more relatively effective compared to tanking mods, either by buffing other mods or nerfing tanking mods. This is effectively the carrot approach Aeon describes. Other than non-tanking mods, regen mods are very important for reducing dual tanking. This is because they produce synergy between modules of the same tanking type, encouraging you to focus on one type. Shield regulators and shield delay are crucial as they are shield modules that compete with armour modules. They have to be more worthwhile than armour on a shield suit. This is why I caution against reducing base delays too much as it diminishes the effectiveness and value of regulators. If they delays are deemed too long, better to buff the regulators to give people the tools to reduce them if they give up on dual tanking.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.19 18:04:00 - [7] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Dual tanking can be reduced by making non-tank related mods more relatively effective compared to tanking mods, either by buffing other mods or nerfing tanking mods. This is effectively the carrot approach Aeon describes. Other than non-tanking mods, regen mods are very important for reducing dual tanking. This is because they produce synergy between modules of the same tanking type, encouraging you to focus on one type. Shield regulators and shield delay are crucial as they are shield modules that compete with armour modules. They have to be more worthwhile than armour on a shield suit. This is why I caution against reducing base delays too much as it diminishes the effectiveness and value of regulators. If they delays are deemed too long, better to buff the regulators to give people the tools to reduce them if they give up on dual tanking. Buffing other mods = carrot Nefing tank mods = stick True. I guess the carrot would be buffs to damage mods, biotics, EWAR mods and codebreakers. Though I suspect buffing damage mods and myofibs would be bad. If we refrain from buffing assault and logi base shield regen and delays we should avoid a rise in dual tanking. Buffs to shields should come from the modules that encourage synergy in a dedicated tanking type. Modules such as energisers (% based so less effective on armour tanks) and regulators (which compete with armour and synergise with energisers) are what should be looked at.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.19 18:17:00 - [8] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: True. That's a lot of modules to buff. Think we'll ever get there? Does CPM even have a plan yet? I can think of a more efficient path with fewer moving parts, less room for error, lower odds of unintended consequence, and zero chance of worsening the veteran/newbro gap. I edited my post with more thoughts. I never said I was against the stick.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.20 11:14:00 - [9] - Quote TL/DR - All fitted racial suits should have similar recovery times. - Heavier suits should fit more regen, lighter suits less regen. - Therefore base regen rate progression should either be light > heavy > medium (like now), or light > heavy = medium (like my spreadsheet). See below for current recovery times and associated fits. Cross Atu wrote: Varoth Drac If so what degrees of separation, at a conceptual level, are desired/acceptable and why. If not please elaborate on why in your view the aspects listed as equal must retain identical state profiles to maintain a conceptually sound method. Numbers are wonderful for illustrative purposes, so please feel free to keep them coming, but also bear in mind that we're addressing the conceptual macro level right now not specific stat profiles so please frame your input accordingly Cheers, Cross If I'm interpreting you question correctly, I think you are asking why I am proposing Heavy = medium < light. This is a difficult question to answer properly, and I'm sorry for taking a long time to respond. My thinking is this: "In general, after fitting modules, all racial suits should regen their shields in approximately the same time period." This is the key principle. I do not agree that heavier suits should regen shields more slowly. And I am referring to the time it takes to return to full shields, rather than regen rate. This means heavies should have a faster regen rate, as they have more hp to regen. However what does need to be taken into account is the modules fitted on these suits. Hp mods, being set values, are more suited for lighter suits, whereas regen mods are more suited to heavier suits, who have the native hp already. It then follows that heavy shield suits will fit mainly regen mods, medium suits will fit a mix of hp and regen, and light suits will fit only hp (I'm just talking about tanking mods here, obviously they will fit other types of mods as well), in order to all achieve approximately equal shield regen times. This is approximately the situation we have now. Consider these three fits: Caldari Sentinel Caldari Assault Caldari Scout The time to regen full shields on these fits, assuming starting a 1 shield hp, so using the non-depleted shield delay: Sentinel = 10 seconds Assault = 11 seconds (could easily be fit with another energiser for faster regen) Scout = 10.6 seconds All three suits regen in a very similar timeframe. You may ask, why should scouts not have to fit regen mods? The answer to this is two-fold. Firstly, this is the way they are balanced. If you reduced the native scout regen, to maintain their ability to regen quickly they would have to swap hp for regen mods, thus reducing their overall effectiveness. You could swap the native regen for some more hp, assuming scout players would fit regen. This leads us to the second problem though. Players probably wouldn't do this. The static value nature of hp mods makes them more worthwhile on low hp suits. Scouts would probably sacrifice their quick regen, hit and run ability in order to stack more hp. This is a problem because you then lose some of the identity of the suit. The imposed sacrifice of hp for regen forces scouts more into their correct role of stealthy hit and run. Thus I don't recommend changing this. On the other end of the scale, why should sentinels fit more regen mods than hp? Bear in mind I'm just talking about shield sentinels here, as the remote reps for armour make armour sentinels a different case. Anyway, much like how hp mods are very effective on light suits, they are less effective on heavies. For example, a complex shield extender provides a 20% shield boost to a Caldari assault, but only an 11% shield boost for a Caldari sentinel. Whereas regen mods are more worthwhile as you have more base hp to regen. I guess this leads me to advocating the current shield regen progression of scout > sentinel > assault. Though I thought that heavy = medium < light was simpler and more in line with what others had suggested, hence my earlier proposal. I don't think that sentinels should take longer to regen shields than other suits, assuming they are properly fitted out for shield regen. Reducing their regen slightly to that of an assault may hurt this. However, as I would argue the shield/armour balance should be addressed by looking at shield regen modules, any buff would help sentinels more (assuming they follow the paradigm of fitting more regen than lighter suits), and therefore would offset this potential slight nerf relative to lighter suits. It's worth noting though, that currently assault and sentinel shield regen is quite similar, and my proposal for a neater heavy = medium regen model, only really results in a minor nerf to the Caldari sentinel.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.20 13:32:00 - [10] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: Nerfing a Caldari shield stat in anyway? Am I reading this right? Buff the other Caldari shield stats to match the Cal Sentinel, we are trying to fix shields, I am hoping, in this thread. Caldari suits should not suffer the stacking penalties incurred when stackig shields, and shield module efficacy should be added. If a caldari scout wants to have more ehp at the cost of shield regen how is this a problem? it has 2 low slots? Are we going to see a bunch of slow caldari scouts running around with 300 armor and slowly regening shields? The caldari Assault should be on the same native level as the scout and sentinel, the logi should be able to stack plates and still carry equipment but have a slow regen, and the commando should feel like it is part of the caldari race instead of amar with how terrible the shields function. Of equal skill - One logi with a rep tool in a room full of amar sentinals stacking HP is going to win every time versus a room full of caldari sentinels.. especially if even one has basic flux grenades. We are not trying to fix shields in this thread. We are trying to establish a set of shield regen design principles which will make later balancing easier. I made two proposals. One buffed Caldari sentinel regen a little, one results in nerfing the delay by 1 second. Both result in buffing commando regen. Neither proposal aims to bring balance to shield tanking. For balancing I propose buffing energisers and rechargers.

Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.20 14:37:00 - [11] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: I hope this game is around long enough to get from 'not trying to fix or balance shields in this thread' to 'now that we spent 3 months concluding that Caldari shields should be at least twice as effective in everyway to every other suit, lets spend 3 months discussing how to implement'...... Why not just make Caldari race of suits the baseline for all shield suits, for which all other suits are significantly worse. Anyone that plays the game knows what the problem is with shields, this is going the same way the vehicle threads went when trying to set up a baseline for two vehicles. Ratatti et al actually agreed to NERF SHIELD REGEN on shield vehicles as they thought the stat was OP.. Now no one sensible uses shield vehicles outside of the redline. I'm all for supporting a thread to start a dialogue for establishing shield regen principles... but if we are at 8 pages and have so far concluded that Caldari>Min>Gal/Amar.... why not just set up shields as - Caldari stats (x=1) Min stats (x=0.5) Gal/Amar stats (x=.25). Remove all stacking penalties from Caldari stats. Add 2% efficacy per level to all shield modules to all caldari suits. Give all Caldari shield suits the same native regen stats as the Sentinel AND MOVE ON. Real easy to balance shields now that every shield in the game is based off of one suit. Make minmitar shield regen stats 4xs worse and gal/amar 10xs worse. If we try and set up all these stats the same way they set up all the vehicle stats we will fail.. we are not in a vacuum, there are too many moving parts to pretend we are... Well I'm not on the CPM, I can't accelerate the process, I'm just working with the intent of the thread, rather than against it. Something I feel will probably result i faster progress. As for base suit stats, Caldari shield stats are already about 50% better than Gallente and Amarr. That's already a big difference. I strongly feel balance should be brought about by looking at the modules you can fit rather than the base stats. The ability to fit your suit how you like is probably the one thing this game does particularly well. So for example, shield energisers could be buffed to give you +100% shield regen at complex level. This would automatically benefit Caldari more, as they have more base regen. But it would also help Minmatar suits that choose to shield tank. It isn't just Caldari that are (supposedly) underpowered, it's shield tanking in general. You wouldn't choose to fit an energiser on a Gallente or Amarr suit, as you have too long a delay, and too poor a base regen rate, so such a buff wouldn't really help armour tankers. But anyway, the exact numbers required to bring balance isn't the point of the thread. It sounds like you are in agreement with shield regen being Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente/Amarr, that's good. What about Scout > Sentinel >(or =) Assault = Logi = Commando ? At least as far as base stats go. With modules recovery time should be Scout = Assault = Logi = Commando = Sentinel, but with scouts fitting no regen mods, and sentinels fitting more than the others.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.20 15:00:00 - [12] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: I'm all for supporting a thread to start a dialogue for establishing shield regen principles... but if we are at 8 pages and have so far concluded that Caldari>Min>Gal/Amar.... why not just set up shields as - Caldari stats (x=1) Min stats (x=0.5) Gal/Amar stats (x=.25). Remove all stacking penalties from Caldari stats. Add 2% efficacy per level to all shield modules to all caldari suits. Give all Caldari shield suits the same native regen stats as the Sentinel AND MOVE ON. Real easy to balance shields now that every shield in the game is based off of one suit. Make minmitar shield regen stats 4xs worse and gal/amar 10xs worse. If we try and set up all these stats the same way they set up all the vehicle stats we will fail.. we are not in a vacuum, there are too many moving parts to pretend we are... I guess you could buff Caldari shield regen to 40hp/s for all suits, except for scouts that could stay at 50hp/s. Would that be more in line with your thinking? This would mean a Caldari assault would have 2 x the base shield regen of Gallente or Amarr. I think more of a discrepancy than that would be too much.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.20 15:54:00 - [13] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Stuff A lot of this looks more like our (CPM) 'step 2' #1 is the base suit stats having a method that provides a solid foundation #2 is tuning the mods (and hopefully adding a few options as well) to give shields more love and diversity #3 is looking at possible comparative issues with weapons, such a profile bias, this is more of a side step. #4 is looking at the raw stats of the armor mods. The iterative balance process takes this one step at a time and allows for more finite adjustments as well as leaving entire steps alone if balance is reached before they are enacted. That's just a roughed out framework of course, but it should illustrate the concept and context. One step at a time is key. Cheers, Cross I'm pretty sure the first 47 lines of my post relates to step 1. Only the last 5 or so relate to step 2. I was attempting to explain the reasons for my thoughts about a method for a solid foundation of base stats.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.20 16:06:00 - [14] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: I still think Scout=Sentinel=Assualt=Logi=Commando would be fine for shield regen stats across the Caldari board.. if it's a big deal have scouts +10% assault=sentinel=commando with logi at -10%... but at that point why not just have them all the same. As I have been trying to explain, reducing the shield regen advantage a scout has over other suits would be difficult to balance.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.20 16:18:00 - [15] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: A lot of this looks more like our (CPM) 'step 2' #1 is the base suit stats having a method that provides a solid foundation #2 is tuning the mods (and hopefully adding a few options as well) to give shields more love and diversity #3 is looking at possible comparative issues with weapons, such a profile bias, this is more of a side step. #4 is looking at the raw stats of the armor mods. The iterative balance process takes this one step at a time and allows for more finite adjustments as well as leaving entire steps alone if balance is reached before they are enacted. That's just a roughed out framework of course, but it should illustrate the concept and context. One step at a time is key. Cheers, Cross Just to check, did I successfully explain why I'm in favour of scout > sentinel > commando = assault = logi? I hope I've explained why I feel this is preferable to the OP's suggestion of scout > logi > assault > commando > sentinel. I've also explained a method of working out the relative levels of base shield regen that should be applied to each role, i.e. fitted suits should experience similar recovery times. To be honest I haven't figured out exactly where logis should lie. However it shouldn't be difficult based on the stated principles. I suspect they should be around the same as assaults and commandos.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.20 16:59:00 - [16] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I believe you did, but you also mentioned you were including the use of fitted mods in your outline correct? Where as the OP does not include fitted mods in the outlined concept and saves the inclusion of their effects for the following step. If I have misread your intent and you instead advocate that without mods fitted the relation should be scout > sentinel > commando = assault = logi then please correct me. Further I will reiterate that while in some cases I could fully support the margins being very small, I do not support a hard and fast X must equal Y method because it constrains fine tuning balance during further development. As an illustrative example I could support conceptually placing gal and amarr shield regen within 0.1 of each other, but I would not support a methodology that called for them to remain at all times identical to each other. The same is true for roles, we can push the margins and I am totally open to that discussion, but a hard and fast rule of 'these roles much always remain equal' is something I find too conceptually limiting to be supported. Thanks for your continued participation Cross Thanks for your reply. I in fact meant without modules the regen rate relationship should be scout > sentinel > commando = assault = logi. But I did use modules as my reasoning. My reasoning being that with modules they should all have approximately equal recovery times. I understand what you mean about the constraints of setting things equal to each other. I was using the term more to demonstrate things being approximately equal. Obviously I wouldn't mind small variations, but it indicates where there should be more or less variation. For example, you could say scout > assault > commando, but I would like to see a much bigger difference between assault and scout, than assault and commando. Also, there would be a certain simplicity in setting some stats equal to each other. So with the case of Gallente and Amarr, obviously there isn't much difference between a small variation between the two, and them being equal. However I can't think of any reason that they should differ in shield regen stats, so it may be neater to keep them equal. To be honest I don't think it matters too much. I accept there is a problem with including modules in my considerations, since they are open to separate change. However, there is a limit to how much modules are likely to change. I think we should give some consideration to module mechanics when considering balance (much like Rattati did with the very successful hp/speed balance). Unless we are going to set the number of module slots equal amongst all classes, and make all hp and regen modules percentage based, I think it is difficult to discount modules due to the very different ways in which suits are fitted. That said, I think I have come up with another solution for finding the correct design! Behold my consideration of shield recovery times: Recovery times (look at the "shield recovery" tab). Now, you can see there is a clear pattern to recovery time: Scout > logi > assault > sentinel > commando. To make this fit with inverse hp, as suggested in the OP, all we need to do is make it: Scout > logi > assault > commando > sentinel. This is easy, just buff commando regen so the recovery time fits between assault and sentinel. My spreadsheet suggests 18 seconds as an example. And we have a clear and easy to understand progression without involving modules. What do you think?
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.20 17:11:00 - [17] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: TL/DR - All fitted racial suits should have similar recovery times. - Heavier suits should fit more regen, lighter suits less regen. - Therefore base regen rate progression should either be light > heavy > medium (like now), or light > heavy = medium (like my spreadsheet). Just to do a deeper dive in case we're not on the same page. When defining a suit as "fitted" are you assuming all H/L slots using mods of the same value and being completely filled with tanking mods? Are you assuming a given % of total slots being fitted with tanking mods (as total H/L slot count differs between roles)? You are defining recovery time as "time it takes to get from 0 HP to full HP" correct? If so is it acceptable in your estimation for that recovery time to be varied in the case of roles or suits that fully buffer tank rather than fit any regen mods? What ratio of regen mods to buffer mods (and which mods) are you assuming are used? To make this more tangible, under your proposal what would the fits look like for a Cal Mando and a Cal Assault so that their fitted values ultimately equate? You do note a guideline for this in your second point, Heavier suits should fit more regen, lighter suits less regen. but the question becomes how are we balancing that. Is one energizer slot on a heavy meant to equal one extender slot on an assault? What is the base regen rate (HP/s) per buffer rate (raw HP) ratio needed to provide an equal method - considering that extenders are raw HP and regen mods are % based - and how do we account for each role having a viable place within the speed vs eHP curve if suits with higher base buffer HP are also slated to have higher base regen rates? I know this is quite the pile of questions so allow me to be absolutely clear that they are sincere questions not just a pile of "?" meant to smother alternate ideas. I may not see the path with all of these myself but you are much more firmly acquainted with your idea and thus I rely on you to illuminate it for me (as to the questions themselves they are the kinds of things which the CPM wrestled with prior to coming to the conclusion that a fundamental method was needed so that mod balance could be adequately addressed). All good questions. I think the thing to remember is that my proposal doesn't deal with absolute values but rather design philosophy. I was looking at common fitting approaches, accepting that there will be variations. It is impossible to predict exactly how people will fit their suits, however there are facts we can go off. Such as the fact that sentinels have more base hp, mediums have more module slots, hp mods are fixed values etc. I did provide some example fits. I feel using approximations of real in-game fits are better than extremes such as fitting all mods with hp, for example. I accept that using modules is a bit tricky though. Hence I have come up with a module free method. I've already posted it, but essentially it advocates a progression based on recovery time. To be clear, this means the time it takes for shields to regenerate from 1hp to full hp (including the delay, which isn't depleted since we are starting at 1 not 0 hp).
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.20 18:12:00 - [18] - Quote I've added a proposal for number changes. Shield Recovery Progression The higher the hp of the suit, the longer it takes to fully recover it's shields (starting from 1). It's very simple, just an increase in commando regen and decrease in commando delay. Just a buff for commandos, like many have said is needed. Follow this principle for the other races, along the Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente >(=) Amarr design. I haven't checked all their recovery rates, but the principle is set by the Caldari. Balancing shields can come in step 2.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.20 19:44:00 - [19] - Quote Shield regen progression based on common recovery time I've fleshed out the proposal to include all suits. Method: Set Caldari shield recovery times to follow shield hp in the following progression: scout - logi - assault -commando - sentinel. This is achieved by buffing commando delay to be equal to the assault and buffing regen rate so that recovery time falls in between assault and sentinel, in the same position that a commando's hp does. Using Caldari suit shield recovery times as a template I have adjusted all suit regen rates so that their recovery times are approximately equal to my new Caldari recovery times. Note that the Caldari commando was the only suit where I have adjusted the delay. This is because all other commandos have their delay equal to assaults, and other suits follow a clear delay pattern. All suits now follow the recovery time progression on scout < logi < assault < commando < sentinel This results in the largest buff going to the Caldari commando. However there are minor buffs to most suits. The only suit that gets a nerf is the Minmatar logi. This is due to the unusually armour heavy tank of the Min logi. Before the Caldari players freak out, if the recovery time is the same, Caldari suits will regen at a faster rate as they have more shields to recover. The only Caldari suit I have messed with is the commando. And yes, this method results in buffing most suit shield regen other than Caldari. I will say though, they are only minor buffs, much less extreme than the OP. This is NOT meant to address shield - armour balance. Balance will need to be fixed in another way. It does fix shield regen for commandos relative to other suits however.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.20 19:59:00 - [20] - Quote It's interesting to note that for my recovery time based proposal, I have only had to make very minor changes to assaults. They already have approximately the same shield recovery times as each other. Perhaps this is already CCP's design, at least as far as assaults are concerned.

Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.20 20:15:00 - [21] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: It's interesting to note that for my recovery time based proposal, I have only had to make very minor changes to assaults. They already have approximately the same shield recovery times as each other. Perhaps this is already CCP's design, at least as far as assaults are concerned. so why do you have the minlogi taking a shield regen nerf? that makes zero sense in any context. 15 regen/sec makes shield rechargers and energizers largely useless You seem to object to heavy HP suits getting a shield buff, but all of your armor tanked suits get some kind of shield buff. What's the Min logi got to do with assault recovery times? I think you are misunderstanding the premise of my proposal. It is based on shield recovery time. Minmatar logis have unusually low shields, and more armour to compensate. With less shields it takes less time for them to regen, therefore they don't need as high a regen rate. If their shield and armour hp values were rebalanced they could retain their regen. If you are worried about bias, Min logi is one of my top most used suits. And since when am I against heavy HP suits getting a shield buff? My proposal has Caldari commandos receiving the largest buff, and in most cases commandos and sentinels are getting buffed more than the others. Mainly though, in comparison to the OP's proposal, sentinel shield regen will be considerably faster when compared to assaults and logis. So this is a much better deal for heavies than the OP's proposal. Amarr assaults and scouts are armour suits that won't be getting a buff. And most of the buffs are minor anyway. Also, I thought the whole point of this was to come up with a framework for shield regen, not worry about balancing everything. Don't get stuck on the details and think about the whole picture. Basing regen on recovery time makes much more sense than doing it purely on the regen figures as it takes into account all shield stats, including hp.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.20 20:44:00 - [22] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: the other half of the proposal aeon is working on is mine, I'm doing the depleted delays and shield module tweaks. Aeon's assessment of where the recharge delays appears to be spot on. the objective is to make shields GOOD again, on par with armor for utility IF you take it on a 1 for 1 basis and throw the armor tool out the window for the consideration. If shields are good across the board, then the caldari and minmatar benefit most solidly no matter what because the shield regeneration modules start with a sronger baseline to work from. Further, the min logi can shield tank rather well, it's slot layout determines that it can speed tank, armor tank, shield tank or DPS tank. Using the baseline shield/armor stats is taking a small piece of the picture and making that the sum. This is not a stealth "Buff armor suits" thread. This is hunting a cohesive and coherent curve that can be used as a baseline so that if things need adjusting the whole curve can shift equally instead of the haphazard shuffle of balance we have had in the past. We, the CPM are seeking a LINEAR, and LOGICAL progression of shield recharge delays that does not use arbitrary metrics. For example: Making gallente and amarr shield stats the same is a bad idea IMHO because the amarr have a higher proportionate armor to shield ratio than the gallente assault does. since the amarr are less dependent on shields and more focused on armor buffer, why should they enjoy equal shield protection to the other armor race who cannot match them for raw HP? I added this statement to my previous post "Also, I thought the whole point of this was to come up with a framework for shield regen, not worry about balancing everything. Don't get stuck on the details and think about the whole picture. Basing regen on recovery time makes much more sense than doing it purely on the regen figures as it takes into account all shield stats, including hp." I'm not accusing anyone of stealth armour buffing, nor am I trying to do that myself. Was this directed at others? You will also notice that my proposal differentiates Amarr and Gallente regen by putting Gallente regen rates above Amarr due to their larger shield buffer. I've come up with a logical progression. One that mostly avoids the issues brought up by others in this thread. People have voiced major concerns, such as fears about a rise in dual tanking, disproportionate buffs to assaults that are going to be difficult to balance further down the road, disproportionate buffs to Gallente suits. My proposal shows a linear progression of shield recovery with hp. The numbers aren't set in stone, but it's the principle that is important.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.20 22:25:00 - [23] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Aeon's also creates a linear progression along that same slant, what is the major objection to his numbers? What makes them bad? Why is this curve he proposes a bad thing that needs to be opposed and changed? If the answer is "I don't like it" then that's a valid answer, but the issue is getting confused by irrelevant and seemingly random statements from various individuals ranging from "Gallente are overperforming" which has nothing to do with this proposal or in my assessment, reality, to "King HP" and "Spin and win" which are both anecdotal, deliberately inflammatory and irrelevant. I've already TORTUROUSLY picked Aeon's proposal apart screaming to the point where he was willing to give up talking to me entirely in private, and I am now finally satisfied with what he's cooking in the stew pot. Cross has picked apart Aeon's proposal (much more politely than I have) and so have the others. So tell me, objectively, with numbers. What is insufficient in Aeon's shield regeneration overhaul proposal that is worth the amount of vehement opposition I have seen in this thread? As Valroth CORRECTLY assessed: This proposal is about a method. the numbers can be tweaked to fit the setup we need, at will. Ok, I'll try to explain the problems with the original proposal in another way. So the original proposal advocates regen rates and delays following this progression: Scout > assault > logistics > commando > sentinel as opposed to what we have now, which is: scout > sentinel > assault ~ logi > commando And it suggests keeping sentinels and scouts almost the same, and squeezing everything else in between, following a nice pattern. This entails substantial buffs to assault, logi and commando shield regen. Most people agree that commando shield regen needs a buff, but generally people do not agree with buffing shield regen on assaults or logis. People would like Caldari assault and logi buffs, but not the other races. Yes this proposal will have more positive impact on Caldari suits, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a significant buff to other assaults and logis. Now, I know balancing can be sorted out later, but how can we balance a situation like the one proposed? I think it will be difficult. For example, currently the Minmatar (for example) scout enjoys a 15hp/s regen and 2s delay advantage over the Minmatar assault. The OP's proposal would reduce that advantage by 66% (regen) and by 100% (delay). This is similar for all races. Likewise, sentinels have gone from having similar overall shield regen to assaults, to being significantly worse. Have you considered the fact that sentinels need better regen as they have more hp to regenerate? How could these things later be balanced? Can you buff scout regen proportionately to the medium suit buff? It wouldn't mess up the progression as scouts are already on the furthest end of the spectrum. What about other buffs? You could leave medium suits where they are and nerf sentinel regen to maintain the order of hp/regen progression, but how are you then going to have viable shield sentinels? Rechargers would be useless on them. What about the issue of dual tanking? If you significantly buff armour suit shield regen, won't they just fit shield extenders in highs? What about regulators on shield suits? If delay is sufficiently short what is the incentive to fit them? Wouldn't people just fit armour? Reducing shield delay reduces the direct benefit of regulators. There is already a shield recovery progression of sentinel < assault < logi < scout. Pushing regen rates and delays on medium suits much closer to scouts, whilst keeping scouts and sentinels the same, is going to skew this recovery progression far in favour of assaults and logis. Yes this proposal will mean a mild improvement to shield tanking compared to armour tanking, and yes it makes some logical sense. Though no more sense than saying high hp suits should regen at a faster rate. Or a progression based on recovery times. However it amounts to major buffs to all assaults, logis and commandos, without proportionate buffs to sentinels and scouts. It is unclear how you could maintain balance this way, and seems like it might encourage dual tanking. Perhaps if there was some indication of how scouts and sentinels could be buffed in some way to maintain balance, along with assurances that shield tanking will be specifically looked at in addition, perhaps people would be more receptive to the idea. Or you could look at alternative ideas that generally involve much less drastic changes, most of which underline the fact that the Caldari commando is the suit with sub par base shield regen, and the rest are mostly ok. Just because you've had a long discussion about this before bringing it to the forums doesn't mean everyone has to agree it's a good idea. What was the point in this thread? To think about a good progression for shield regen, or to just agree with the system the CPM have already come up with? I do appreciate the work the CPM put in, just be open to other ideas.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.20 22:36:00 - [24] - Quote Meh, maybe it will all be fine. If scouts need buffing CCP could always role back some of the cloak nerfs a bit. If sentinels need buffing CCP could always role back some of the HMG nerfs a bit. If shield tanking needs more of a buff, there are ways. Maybe people won't dual tank.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.21 01:30:00 - [25] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Yes there are ways to buff shield tanking further, and to an extent it is presumed that will be called for. Looking at depleted delays as well as shield mod offerings being next up to bat. [/list] If you are looking at depleted delays may I just state that I am strongly of the opinion that depleted delays should simply last a fixed percentage longer that non-depleted delays. It's simple. It makes sense. It results in an interesting gameplay mechanic where you try not to let your shields become completely depleted. This also reduces the value of armour on your shield tanking fit, as the goal is to not get into armour in the first place, helping to distinguish between tanking styles and rewarding fits that contain synergy.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.21 10:17:00 - [26] - Quote I know we are getting off topic here but I don't understand, from a design perspective, how shorter depleted delays than non-depleted can be a good thing. Why would you want to encourage shield tankers to go into armour? The current method makes for much better gameplay. And just a correction on precision mods. You are more likely to find them on a logi than a scout, where they are very effective. I also have an assault fitted with them, though I doubt that's common.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.21 16:41:00 - [27] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: I know we are getting off topic here but I don't understand, from a design perspective, how shorter depleted delays than non-depleted can be a good thing. Why would you want to encourage shield tankers to go into armour? The current method makes for much better gameplay. It's not encouragement to go into armor. It's a higher likelihood of survival if you escape. Waitting 6-8 seconds if yo manage to survive being put into armor (unlikely) is an eternity. I can see it being ok, but I think it takes away from the gameplay of shield tanking. It takes skill to take cover before depleting you shield. You should be rewarded for this with faster recovery, as is the case now. Yes you will survive more with lower depleted delay, but I think if shield tankers are dying too much there are better ways to buff them than dumbing down the gameplay. Most well fitted shield tankers don't have to wait 6-8 seconds when depleted. It's more like 3 - 4 seconds. Reducing depleted delays even further than normal delays just reduces the value of regulators even more. I think people should be rewarded more for doing shield tanking well, not punished less for doing it badly. By this I mean, if you fit a load of regen mods on your Caldari assault and successfully take cover at the right times you should be rewarded. Whereas if you don't bother with regen and run around like an armour tanker you should be punished. Again, it could well work, it's just not the direction I would go in. P.S. It doesn't make sense from a lore / common sense perspective. I think the mechanics of Dust are already too opaque. Making things less intuitive is bad. P.P.S. Just, why?
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.21 17:40:00 - [28] - Quote Come on Apidem. Gallente buffs in the OP are very similar to Caldari buffs. Shield buffs hold more value for Caldari suits, and besides, balancing armour and shields wasn't the intention of the thread. I'm much more worried about significant buffs to assaults and logis, whilst leaving sentinels and scouts where they are. Without doing anything to try to maintain balance. I think if this goes through how it is, balancing will need to be done. Either by nerfing the suits getting buffed, or buffing the suits being held relatively constant. I guess it's simple logic.

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online/DUST514, the EVE/DUST514 logo, EVE/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to OMG Labs to use EVE Online/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, OMG Labs. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.