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Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.18 17:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:yadda yadda
I like where you are going with this, just remember though while standardizing that exceptions such as the 1 sec Cal Sentinel exist for a reason (and probably should exist for suits like the Cal Commando as well), and that changes to modules should be implemented as well to lessen their awkwardness in fitting (energizers and rechargers: too much cpu, shield extenders: too much pg) and homogenize their utility (remove % based effects on shield modules, pretty please) across suits.
Also take a look at native armor regen on shield suits, I know its counterintuitive but I believe shield based dropsuits should have a higher native armor regen (or maybe all suits should have a higher base regen across the board), since there is a huge imbalance between default shield regen on armor suits (20-30 seconds) vs. default armor regen on shield suits (which can take ~2 minutes or more depending on suit). |
Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.18 18:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
Shadowed Cola wrote:Some weapons will still make your Caldari Heavy feel like fodder
If we're talking about the scrambler rifle that weapon just needs a nerf or serious rework. As long as we get to pretend that tactical weapons arent overpowered and there are simultaneously no anti armor tactical weapons, shields are going to be disproportionately ****** by them. |
Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.18 18:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
Shadowed Cola wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Shadowed Cola wrote:Some weapons will still make your Caldari Heavy feel like fodder If we're talking about the scrambler rifle that weapon just needs a nerf or serious rework. As long as we get to pretend that tactical weapons arent overpowered and there are simultaneously no anti armor tactical weapons, shields are going to be disproportionately ****** by them. It's always a mistake to not put a RoF limit on single shooters with high base damage.
There is a rate of fire limiter, iirc, you can realistically hit 8-9 shots per second and 10 shots per second is theoretically possible. The problem is each shot does over 100 damage with mods and shield damage profile bonus, so those 8-9 shots each second put you over 800-900 dps, which is way more than any other gun is capable of except the tactical AR, and way more than you can tank through with any reasonable shield fitting and expect to actually fight back with, particularly with the back loaded, hard capped, and generally low damage output of the railgun weaponry in the game. |
Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.18 18:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
Shadowed Cola wrote:I find the RR more fearsome then the ScR - but I'm an Amarr Heavy. To be expected, because that's how the meta works.
But, admittedly, the ScR does a bit too much against armor. I don't think the resistance penalty is working properly.
The SCR actually does more dps to armor than the RR does (with 2 dmg mods and prof 5 for each: RR @571.05/ARR @603.08 vs. SCR @746.67. These numbers actually hugely favor the rail rifles since SCR profile vs. armor does nothing and 2 damage mods on a rail rifle if we're talking about shield tanked suits being the user is very unlikely, since damage mods replace primary tank, and yet the SCR is still way ahead even though its range effectiveness is very similar and its shield effectiveness is WAY better, numbers generated via PROTOFITS.com), though at least on an Amarr Heavy you have a decent chance to see an overheat before you die (though if they are accurate or use any kind of hit and run tactics to avoid overheat you are still royally ******).
SCR totally balanced though, no need to nerf.
Ill stop posting about the SCR though, since this thread is about regen delays. |
Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.18 19:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:
Ill stop posting about the SCR though, since this thread is about regen delays.
I'd appreciate that.
Your mom would appreciate that. |
Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.18 19:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:
Ill stop posting about the SCR though, since this thread is about regen delays.
I'd appreciate that. Your mom would appreciate that. She would. If the weapon balance posts continue I'll have them snipped, so best not to waste precious time you guys will never get back because our lives are in fact finite.
I can just delete them, let me see if I can figure out how...
Nope, too dumb, feel free to delete them, I wont mind. |
Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.20 15:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:I appreciate the fact that you acknowledge that there is an imbalance between shields and armour but I strongly suggest that these proposals are not the answer.
I really dont see how buffing Gallente Scout and Assault shield stats so much helps anyone.
EDIT - I see that the answer to my above statement is - it is more about having a baseline to work from rather than buffs to armour suits but I still cant help but feel this is iffy...
Why dont we for the love of all things just look at the stats from the current shield modules and adjust those? Regulator buffs, extender buffs (How about removing the shield delay penalty from extenders).
Also its all great trying to balance base stats but how on earth can we ever have balance when Armour has triage hives and repair tools and Shields have none of those? Please explain to me how balance can ever be achieved.
Go and speak to people in EVE and ask them if it would be fair to remove shield logistics modules and ships.....
Buffing the Gal Assault a bit isnt going to make it better than the Amarr and Min assault anyway, so its irrelevant, and buffing the Gal Scout shield recharge isnt goint to make that suit much better either (its not good because of its recharge delays, its good because of its suit bonuses and slot layout). |
Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.20 15:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Ratatti et al actually agreed to NERF SHIELD REGEN on shield vehicles as they thought the stat was OP.. Now no one sensible uses shield vehicles outside of the redline.
Its worth noting that the regen nerf is probably not the reason shield tanks arent used anymore, more likely the problem for shield tanks is that armor tanks are way, way better. |
Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.20 15:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote: The time spent debating the necessity of nerfing shield regen and actually altering it would have far better been spent either playing the game and realizing how rediculous the nerf would be
Of course at the time shield tanks were the ones that were overpowered so the nerf seemed entirely appropriate, indeed if armor tanks didnt have this absurd rep/hardener synergy they might actually be much closer to balanced.
Doc DDD wrote: or by fixing shield boosters or having second thoughts about MAKING ARMOR HARDNERS BETTER THAN SHIELD HARDENERS IN EVERY WAY.
Hindsight is easymode.
Doc DDD wrote:The same thing comes to mind when I see posts regarding slight buffs to gallente shield regen.. I KNOW IT IS A SLIGHT BUFF BUT IT IS NOT NECESSARY FROM ANY PERSPECTIVE SHORT OF MAKING GALLENTE ASSAULT SUITS BETTER.
Its my opinion the Gal Assault needs some help anyway if you compare it to any assault aside from the Caldari, but I totally understand where you're coming from here. |
Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.20 17:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:A lot of this looks more like our (CPM) 'step 2' #1 is the base suit stats having a method that provides a solid foundation #2 is tuning the mods (and hopefully adding a few options as well) to give shields more love and diversity #3 is looking at possible comparative issues with weapons, such a profile bias, this is more of a side step. #4 is looking at the raw stats of the armor mods.
The iterative balance process takes this one step at a time and allows for more finite adjustments as well as leaving entire steps alone if balance is reached before they are enacted.
That's just a roughed out framework of course, but it should illustrate the concept and context. [/b]
Cheers, Cross
Are there any plans to look into the disparity of equipment? Availability of triage hives and rep tool support is a real spoiler that takes away the one advantage shield suits (at least currently) have, primary tank repair speed. |
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Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.20 18:40:00 -
[11] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Cross Atu wrote:A lot of this looks more like our (CPM) 'step 2' #1 is the base suit stats having a method that provides a solid foundation #2 is tuning the mods (and hopefully adding a few options as well) to give shields more love and diversity #3 is looking at possible comparative issues with weapons, such a profile bias, this is more of a side step. #4 is looking at the raw stats of the armor mods.
The iterative balance process takes this one step at a time and allows for more finite adjustments as well as leaving entire steps alone if balance is reached before they are enacted.
That's just a roughed out framework of course, but it should illustrate the concept and context. [/b]
Cheers, Cross Are there any plans to look into the disparity of equipment? Availability of triage hives and rep tool support is a real spoiler that takes away the one advantage shield suits (at least currently) have, primary tank repair speed. Giving all caldari suits the current scout regen with sentinel depleted delay could help offset the disparity brought on by secondary regen sources available to armor.
Thats true, but looking at it from a practical perspective, I find it doubtful and I feel like if it did turn out that way it would make Cal suits pretty rediculously overpowered in a low teamwork environment (1v1 fights or pubs for example).
You can think of it this way: If a Cal suits regen is so good it can compete with armor tank + repair tool then wouldnt 1 Cal suit vs. 1 armor tank alone just be a complete blowout? Im sure you could find a balance between factors somewhere but sounds unlikely. I'd much rather have some neat equipment shield users can exploit to achieve teamwork induced parity. |
Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.20 19:32:00 -
[12] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Doc DDD wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Cross Atu wrote:A lot of this looks more like our (CPM) 'step 2' #1 is the base suit stats having a method that provides a solid foundation #2 is tuning the mods (and hopefully adding a few options as well) to give shields more love and diversity #3 is looking at possible comparative issues with weapons, such a profile bias, this is more of a side step. #4 is looking at the raw stats of the armor mods.
The iterative balance process takes this one step at a time and allows for more finite adjustments as well as leaving entire steps alone if balance is reached before they are enacted.
That's just a roughed out framework of course, but it should illustrate the concept and context. [/b]
Cheers, Cross Are there any plans to look into the disparity of equipment? Availability of triage hives and rep tool support is a real spoiler that takes away the one advantage shield suits (at least currently) have, primary tank repair speed. Giving all caldari suits the current scout regen with sentinel depleted delay could help offset the disparity brought on by secondary regen sources available to armor. Thats true, but looking at it from a practical perspective, I find it doubtful and I feel like if it did turn out that way it would make Cal suits pretty rediculously overpowered in a low teamwork environment (1v1 fights or pubs for example). You can think of it this way: If a Cal suits regen is so good it can compete with armor tank + repair tool then wouldnt 1 Cal suit vs. 1 armor tank alone just be a complete blowout? Im sure you could find a balance between factors somewhere but sounds unlikely. I'd much rather have some neat equipment shield users can exploit to achieve teamwork induced parity. I don't see how it would be overpowered, scout would be the same, sentinel the same, assault a little better, commando quite a bit better.. not even close to an armor stacked player with a rep tool.. no delay on armor reps or damage threshold which is a huge bonus to armor. Not to mention damage mods. 700 shields vs 700 armor shooting at eachother for 2 seconds will have the armor suit repping for 2 straight seconds while the shield suit will still have a delay when it stops taking damage.. apples=/=oranges with Ehp.
"not even close to an armor stacked player with a rep tool"
Then shields still fail in the overall meta. Thats why I was asking about support equipment.
If shield suits cant compete as a team against armor based suits, its still not balanced. |
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