Is it possible to have suits or BPOs that only show up in the Special Contracts with some of these stats so ideas could be playtested without affecting normal matches?

That would be ideal, and also amazing.

I appreciate the fact that you acknowledge that there is an imbalance between shields and armour but I strongly suggest that these proposals are not the answer.

I really dont see how buffing Gallente Scout and Assault shield stats so much helps anyone.

EDIT - I see that the answer to my above statement is - it is more about having a baseline to work from rather than buffs to armour suits but I still cant help but feel this is iffy...

Why dont we for the love of all things just look at the stats from the current shield modules and adjust those? Regulator buffs, extender buffs (How about removing the shield delay penalty from extenders).

Also its all great trying to balance base stats but how on earth can we ever have balance when Armour has triage hives and repair tools and Shields have none of those? Please explain to me how balance can ever be achieved.

Go and speak to people in EVE and ask them if it would be fair to remove shield logistics modules and ships.....

Also its all great trying to balance base stats but how on earth can we ever have balance when Armour has triage hives and repair tools and Shields have none of those? Please explain to me how balance can ever be achieved.

I don't want to have to textwallate every post...

This thread suggests that all suits have a shield problem, hence the need for normalization..

But the fact, carved into maths and observable data, is that the only race that feels the shields lackluster performance ATM IS CALDARI! This could be solved with one addition, a fitting bonus for shield mods.

Data and math will also show you how a max plated cal anything outperforms its non-plated counterpart, even if max shield fitted.

Cover is a joke. Take cover from one, and the guy on the hill finishes the job. Long range is a joke. We now have fatties that can fly and cross huge gaps in a single sprint.

Dust has changed a lot. Time to bring the caldari back to speed.

I can't even begin to wrap my head around the Caldari Assault getting higher shield recharge and less shield delay being a bad thing.... And no, the thread does -not- suggest that all suits have a shield problem, it suggests that all shield modules have a problem because of reasons that have already been well explained at least three times now.

A 'small buffer' that they'd get to use in effectively every engagement? with delays and recharge values that make you go "Hey, maybe I'll put one complex extender on here so I can have 200 hp, and get it all back in ~10 seconds all the time".

Meanwhile the actual shield tanked suits do not possess this buffer and when they take armor damage it stays there for ungodly amounts of time (values can be in the minutes range, eg cal sent has 487 armor and reps at 1/sec natively) if you don't have a rep or a reactive fit and even then that doesn't shorten it by much.

This exacerbates existent problems, because armor is already the clearly better tanking style for a wide variety of reasons... so in attempting to 'address' the woes of shield users, somehow a nice sneaky and rather large buff to shield tanking for armor suits gets wiggled in there too.

Do armor tanks need a buff to their ability to shield tank? No. Why are they getting one? Because purple prose and [reasons]. Meanwhile lets yammer on about pendulum balance.

Shield tanking should be buffed independently, armor tankers should not be recieving any buffs to their shields at the moment (with the sole exceptions being armor commandos, who do often rely on their shields and could use some love)

So you disagree that giving the cal as a race a fitting bonus to shield mods would fix all this?

Kind of a loaded question. I don't think it would fix everything, it might help fix Caldari but it won't address the core issue being described in this thread. It would just be a bandaid solution for one race that will inevitably have to be addressed later on as the game progresses and develops.

The title of the thread said shield stats... /hardfacepalm


Edit: MEANING CALDARI

I'll make a constructive post.


We all know when we say 'shield tanking..' we mean caldari.

So gal and ama need zero change.
Minmatar already have the best of all worlds, so no soup for you.

I see the desire to keep this fair, and cannot respect it. Shields (caldari) have been SoL for a long time now. Caldari only needs a rework here. Sorry if it hurts your butt.

Priceless, you won't even consider a racial bonus. Then respond with that. I've tried to keep my loathing of you out of this....

This thread suggests that all suits have a shield problem, hence the need for normalization..

I'll go line by line here because I think there are key aspects to address which your post raises o7

I won't try to classify everyone but when I say shield tanking I mean Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente > Amarr which I believe is a key distinction, as this is about providing a unified conceptual foundation for overall game balance, not a light buff to one race due to the current meta situation.


They all need to fit within the same system/method regardless of where their raw stat profiles ultimately land.
If there's a problem with the stats they can be tuned within the method, if there's a problem with the method not the specific stats then now is the perfect time to address that at a macro (not current meta/numbers) level and find an alternate method. The only non-negotiable aspect here AFAIK is whether or not there is a method in place at all. There needs to be a method, some method. It can be this one, or another, but the prior status of non-unified profiles is something that needs to be moved beyond.



It's not a question of what's "fair" per se, it's a question of having a viable foundation/framework for long term development and polish. Ultimately that should result in a fair and balanced game you are absolutely correct, but this is not about a single step direct redress to the current meta, nor is it about using history to assess which race, role, or sub-combo now deserves their turn to be our shiny new FotM. It is in fact about building something so as to preclude that type of pattern as much as possible.

I have zero racial bias in Dust, I play them all, I have them all to proto in more than one role, my min scout is stronger than people seem to give it credit for, my cal scout is doing quite well for itself, my cal logi cries itself to sleep every night, my manndos all seem "out of breath" a lot of the time, and my Min Assault - even with the semi-recent changes - still kind of laughs at most of the other suits and tells them to HTFU.

But this isn't about hyper-focus on one race, this is about having a foundational methodology so that other things within that, such as possible racial imbalances, can be addressed properly.
In essence the question of "is Cal in a good space" comes after this question, not during, before, or instead of.
Unless of course - specifically with regards to shields - you have an objection with the proposed racial hierarchy of
Cal > Min > Gal > Am. If you object to that then please do elaborate on why so it can be taken into account as part of the feedback process.

There's tons of relevant and accurate feedback out there, and getting it all is worthwhile, but it is not all relevant to every thread or topic no matter how accurate or pertinent it is.

Cheers,
Cross

@Thread, this is an open invitation to any participants in this thread, please give me your input here.

o/ Cross

Here's an alternative method:
Google Doc

Despite what the bubble chart on Page 1 suggests, there is in fact a clear progression in current shield stats. Present values were not assigned at random. The Google Doc above attempts to clean up the existing progression to make it more clear (labeled Step 1), and then it achieves the target inverse relationship between Recovery and HP potential (labeled Step 2).

This model diverges most evidently from Aeon's in that a more logical framework is established without substantial buffs to shield performance of Armor Tankers. This isn't a comprehensive solution, rather (like Aeon's model) this is a framework upon which to build.

Thank you sir.

I agree with the order no doubt as far as effectiveness and supposed to have. Just feeling like more regen is not going to be a boon. However, if its just the beginning I guess we have to start somewhere.

Threshold, if it can be tuned per race, could be a good next step. I have a phone pic of a 99m kill on me from a militia CR and he was the only one shooting at me as I ran to redline depot to refill.

But I still feel strongly on the caldari receiving a fitting bonus to make the modules shine when the pure shield race fits them.

Idk, either way, here nor there, thanks for being you and knowing how to shut me up xD

o/ Cross

Here's an alternative method:
Google Doc

Despite what the bubble chart on Page 1 suggests, there is in fact a clear progression in current shield stats. Present values were not assigned at random. The Google Doc above attempts to clean up the existing progression to make it more clear (labeled Step 1), and then it achieves the target inverse relationship between Recovery and HP potential (labeled Step 2).

This model diverges most evidently from Aeon's in that a more logical framework is established without substantial buffs to shield performance of Armor Tankers. This isn't a comprehensive solution, rather (like Aeon's model) this is a framework upon which to build.

So I put down some example numbers for my shield regen proposal:

Shield regen proposal

This is based on the following principles:

Racial shield regen stats:

Caldari - 30hp/s 5s delay.
Minmatar - 25hp/s 6s delay.
Gallente/Amarr - 20hp/s 7s delay.

Scouts get 50% superior shield regen and delay. This is to facilitate stealthy hit and run combat.
Sentinels get 20% superior shield regen and delay. This is to facilitate defensive combat.

You will notice from the highlighted buffs and nerfs, that this design results in little change to most suits, except for commandos (especially Caldari) which get buffed.
More specifically, sentinels and logis get their regen rate buffed slightly, but their delay nerfed slightly at the same time.
Minmatar scouts get their regen nerfed, but their delay buffed.
Caldari sentinels recieve a small buff to regen rate.

In my opinion this provides a sensible and neat design principle, resulting in very little change to actual balance. With the exception of commandos, particularly Caldari, which get their shield regen buffed.

Armour shield balance can be addressed separately. I suggest buffing shield regen mods, since this would specifically target medium and heavy shield tankers, who are the ones that need a buff.

The 8 second depleted on calmando needs to go away.

I did notice that shield delays were abnormally high for the Commando class. If there isn't a good reason to keep them high, I'd absolutely support moving them closer in line with that of Assaults.

Be sure to include written statements as to what defines the implementation of the design pattern.

For example:
- Caldari are the primary shield tankers and therefore should have a higher regen than other races.
- Scouts are hit-and-run focused with low EHP, so should have a higher regen than other roles.

Etc. Something that can be easily followed, recognized, and adhered to in future design. Numbers are fantastic for the nuance but the overall design principles are best written.

*steps into thread*

There's a lot of instigating in here.

You can't effect one attribute of the game without affecting the other. Everything is related.
Even if say I changed a stat that primarily benefits x race it will still trickle down to the others but that's already been addressed.

CPM already knows my stance on the issue, fix shields no matter what, Aeon and breaking are doing a great job on that so I'mnot too bothered besides looking over the numbers they post. I'm the one sitting in the corner trying to figure out when this change happens how do we stop the impending dual tanking storm, because it will come.

As much as I believe this game needs more TTK, dual tanking as is (or will be) is not the way.


(This post was not constructive sorry Aeon)