I hope this game is around long enough to get from 'not trying to fix or balance shields in this thread' to 'now that we spent 3 months concluding that Caldari shields should be at least twice as effective in everyway to every other suit, lets spend 3 months discussing how to implement'...... Why not just make Caldari race of suits the baseline for all shield suits, for which all other suits are significantly worse. Anyone that plays the game knows what the problem is with shields, this is going the same way the vehicle threads went when trying to set up a baseline for two vehicles. Ratatti et al actually agreed to NERF SHIELD REGEN on shield vehicles as they thought the stat was OP.. Now no one sensible uses shield vehicles outside of the redline.

I'm all for supporting a thread to start a dialogue for establishing shield regen principles... but if we are at 8 pages and have so far concluded that Caldari>Min>Gal/Amar.... why not just set up shields as - Caldari stats (x=1) Min stats (x=0.5) Gal/Amar stats (x=.25). Remove all stacking penalties from Caldari stats. Add 2% efficacy per level to all shield modules to all caldari suits. Give all Caldari shield suits the same native regen stats as the Sentinel AND MOVE ON. Real easy to balance shields now that every shield in the game is based off of one suit. Make minmitar shield regen stats 4xs worse and gal/amar 10xs worse. If we try and set up all these stats the same way they set up all the vehicle stats we will fail.. we are not in a vacuum, there are too many moving parts to pretend we are...

I'm all for supporting a thread to start a dialogue for establishing shield regen principles... but if we are at 8 pages and have so far concluded that Caldari>Min>Gal/Amar.... why not just set up shields as - Caldari stats (x=1) Min stats (x=0.5) Gal/Amar stats (x=.25). Remove all stacking penalties from Caldari stats. Add 2% efficacy per level to all shield modules to all caldari suits. Give all Caldari shield suits the same native regen stats as the Sentinel AND MOVE ON. Real easy to balance shields now that every shield in the game is based off of one suit. Make minmitar shield regen stats 4xs worse and gal/amar 10xs worse. If we try and set up all these stats the same way they set up all the vehicle stats we will fail.. we are not in a vacuum, there are too many moving parts to pretend we are...

I guess you could buff Caldari shield regen to 40hp/s for all suits, except for scouts that could stay at 50hp/s. Would that be more in line with your thinking?

This would mean a Caldari assault would have 2 x the base shield regen of Gallente or Amarr. I think more of a discrepancy than that would be too much.

I appreciate the fact that you acknowledge that there is an imbalance between shields and armour but I strongly suggest that these proposals are not the answer.

I really dont see how buffing Gallente Scout and Assault shield stats so much helps anyone.

EDIT - I see that the answer to my above statement is - it is more about having a baseline to work from rather than buffs to armour suits but I still cant help but feel this is iffy...

Why dont we for the love of all things just look at the stats from the current shield modules and adjust those? Regulator buffs, extender buffs (How about removing the shield delay penalty from extenders).

Also its all great trying to balance base stats but how on earth can we ever have balance when Armour has triage hives and repair tools and Shields have none of those? Please explain to me how balance can ever be achieved.

Go and speak to people in EVE and ask them if it would be fair to remove shield logistics modules and ships.....

Does anyone recall what the specific recovery/delay stats were of the early Uprising CalLogi? My thinking is that high hitpoint reserves combined with quick recovery could lead to trouble.

Ratatti et al actually agreed to NERF SHIELD REGEN on shield vehicles as they thought the stat was OP.. Now no one sensible uses shield vehicles outside of the redline.

But anyway, the exact numbers required to bring balance isn't the point of the thread.

It sounds like you are in agreement with shield regen being Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente/Amarr, that's good.
What about Scout > Sentinel >(or =) Assault = Logi = Commando ? At least as far as base stats go.
With modules recovery time should be Scout = Assault = Logi = Commando = Sentinel, but with scouts fitting no regen mods, and sentinels fitting more than the others.

Its worth noting that the regen nerf is probably not the reason shield tanks arent used anymore, more likely the problem for shield tanks is that armor tanks are way, way better.

Its worth noting that the regen nerf is probably not the reason shield tanks arent used anymore, more likely the problem for shield tanks is that armor tanks are way, way better.

The time spent debating the necessity of nerfing shield regen and actually altering it would have far better been spent either playing the game and realizing how rediculous the nerf would be

or by fixing shield boosters or having second thoughts about MAKING ARMOR HARDNERS BETTER THAN SHIELD HARDENERS IN EVERY WAY.

The same thing comes to mind when I see posts regarding slight buffs to gallente shield regen.. I KNOW IT IS A SLIGHT BUFF BUT IT IS NOT NECESSARY FROM ANY PERSPECTIVE SHORT OF MAKING GALLENTE ASSAULT SUITS BETTER.

TL/DR
- All fitted racial suits should have similar recovery times.
- Heavier suits should fit more regen, lighter suits less regen.
- Therefore base regen rate progression should either be light > heavy > medium (like now), or light > heavy = medium (like my spreadsheet).

See below for current recovery times and associated fits.


If I'm interpreting you question correctly, I think you are asking why I am proposing Heavy = medium < light.

This is a difficult question to answer properly, and I'm sorry for taking a long time to respond.

My thinking is this:

"In general, after fitting modules, all racial suits should regen their shields in approximately the same time period."

This is the key principle. I do not agree that heavier suits should regen shields more slowly. And I am referring to the time it takes to return to full shields, rather than regen rate. This means heavies should have a faster regen rate, as they have more hp to regen.

However what does need to be taken into account is the modules fitted on these suits. Hp mods, being set values, are more suited for lighter suits, whereas regen mods are more suited to heavier suits, who have the native hp already. It then follows that heavy shield suits will fit mainly regen mods, medium suits will fit a mix of hp and regen, and light suits will fit only hp (I'm just talking about tanking mods here, obviously they will fit other types of mods as well), in order to all achieve approximately equal shield regen times.

This is approximately the situation we have now. Consider these three fits:

Caldari Sentinel
Caldari Assault
Caldari Scout

The time to regen full shields on these fits, assuming starting a 1 shield hp, so using the non-depleted shield delay:

Sentinel = 10 seconds
Assault = 11 seconds (could easily be fit with another energiser for faster regen)
Scout = 10.6 seconds

All three suits regen in a very similar timeframe.

You may ask, why should scouts not have to fit regen mods? The answer to this is two-fold. Firstly, this is the way they are balanced. If you reduced the native scout regen, to maintain their ability to regen quickly they would have to swap hp for regen mods, thus reducing their overall effectiveness. You could swap the native regen for some more hp, assuming scout players would fit regen. This leads us to the second problem though. Players probably wouldn't do this. The static value nature of hp mods makes them more worthwhile on low hp suits. Scouts would probably sacrifice their quick regen, hit and run ability in order to stack more hp. This is a problem because you then lose some of the identity of the suit. The imposed sacrifice of hp for regen forces scouts more into their correct role of stealthy hit and run. Thus I don't recommend changing this.

On the other end of the scale, why should sentinels fit more regen mods than hp? Bear in mind I'm just talking about shield sentinels here, as the remote reps for armour make armour sentinels a different case. Anyway, much like how hp mods are very effective on light suits, they are less effective on heavies. For example, a complex shield extender provides a 20% shield boost to a Caldari assault, but only an 11% shield boost for a Caldari sentinel. Whereas regen mods are more worthwhile as you have more base hp to regen.

I guess this leads me to advocating the current shield regen progression of scout > sentinel > assault. Though I thought that heavy = medium < light was simpler and more in line with what others had suggested, hence my earlier proposal.

I don't think that sentinels should take longer to regen shields than other suits, assuming they are properly fitted out for shield regen. Reducing their regen slightly to that of an assault may hurt this. However, as I would argue the shield/armour balance should be addressed by looking at shield regen modules, any buff would help sentinels more (assuming they follow the paradigm of fitting more regen than lighter suits), and therefore would offset this potential slight nerf relative to lighter suits.

It's worth noting though, that currently assault and sentinel shield regen is quite similar, and my proposal for a neater heavy = medium regen model, only really results in a minor nerf to the Caldari sentinel.

Imagine what it's like when we're not on the forums

Well I'm not on the CPM, I can't accelerate the process, I'm just working with the intent of the thread, rather than against it. Something I feel will probably result i faster progress.

As for base suit stats, Caldari shield stats are already about 50% better than Gallente and Amarr. That's already a big difference.

I strongly feel balance should be brought about by looking at the modules you can fit rather than the base stats. The ability to fit your suit how you like is probably the one thing this game does particularly well.

So for example, shield energisers could be buffed to give you +100% shield regen at complex level. This would automatically benefit Caldari more, as they have more base regen. But it would also help Minmatar suits that choose to shield tank. It isn't just Caldari that are (supposedly) underpowered, it's shield tanking in general. You wouldn't choose to fit an energiser on a Gallente or Amarr suit, as you have too long a delay, and too poor a base regen rate, so such a buff wouldn't really help armour tankers.

But anyway, the exact numbers required to bring balance isn't the point of the thread.

It sounds like you are in agreement with shield regen being Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente/Amarr, that's good.
What about Scout > Sentinel >(or =) Assault = Logi = Commando ? At least as far as base stats go.
With modules recovery time should be Scout = Assault = Logi = Commando = Sentinel, but with scouts fitting no regen mods, and sentinels fitting more than the others.

A lot of this looks more like our (CPM) 'step 2'
#1 is the base suit stats having a method that provides a solid foundation
#2 is tuning the mods (and hopefully adding a few options as well) to give shields more love and diversity
#3 is looking at possible comparative issues with weapons, such a profile bias, this is more of a side step.
#4 is looking at the raw stats of the armor mods.

The iterative balance process takes this one step at a time and allows for more finite adjustments as well as leaving entire steps alone if balance is reached before they are enacted.

That's just a roughed out framework of course, but it should illustrate the concept and context.

One step at a time is key.

Cheers,
Cross

Of course at the time shield tanks were the ones that were overpowered so the nerf seemed entirely appropriate, indeed if armor tanks didnt have this absurd rep/hardener synergy they might actually be much closer to balanced.

[quote=Doc DDD] or by fixing shield boosters or having second thoughts about MAKING ARMOR HARDNERS BETTER THAN SHIELD HARDENERS IN EVERY WAY.

Hindsight is easymode.



It's not a matter of Hindsight, some were very outspoken regarding the armor hardener buff and shield regen nerf, and the true reason shields were superior was that you could STACK ARMOR PLATES AND DAMAGE MODS. But this is for another thread at another time.

Buffing Gallente shields just makes the buffer better on a suit that can stack armor plates and damage mods.

So much this. I've been doing an examination of shield vs armor modules for a while, and came up with something I call "Fitting Power," to examine the total combined cost of fitting modules, and the benefit given for those modules. The data is in this spreadsheet. This should demonstrate some of the problems that shield is having module side compared to armor, and should demonstrate where stick style dual tanking fixes should fall.



Which is a big problem I've had with the shield delay mechanics in dust since...well...I tried to go as a Caldari suit back in beta. In addition to being able to stack high repair rates that cannot be stopped, armor has a number of choices of support equipment, some of which does not require another player to assist them with provided their suit has equipment slots (looking at you nanohives).

Another problem we're facing in this discussion is that for shields to work properly, they need both excellent stats on suits and modules, whereas armor only really needs their modules to be effective.

Some Regen Numbers I spitballed back in the first thread

A lot of this looks more like our (CPM) 'step 2'
#1 is the base suit stats having a method that provides a solid foundation
#2 is tuning the mods (and hopefully adding a few options as well) to give shields more love and diversity
#3 is looking at possible comparative issues with weapons, such a profile bias, this is more of a side step.
#4 is looking at the raw stats of the armor mods.

The iterative balance process takes this one step at a time and allows for more finite adjustments as well as leaving entire steps alone if balance is reached before they are enacted.

That's just a roughed out framework of course, but it should illustrate the concept and context.

One step at a time is key.

Cheers,
Cross

Oh no, our secret step-by-step balancing approach! Now who will take us seriously D:

I still think Scout=Sentinel=Assualt=Logi=Commando would be fine for shield regen stats across the Caldari board.. if it's a big deal have scouts +10% assault=sentinel=commando with logi at -10%... but at that point why not just have them all the same.

A lot of this looks more like our (CPM) 'step 2'
#1 is the base suit stats having a method that provides a solid foundation
#2 is tuning the mods (and hopefully adding a few options as well) to give shields more love and diversity
#3 is looking at possible comparative issues with weapons, such a profile bias, this is more of a side step.
#4 is looking at the raw stats of the armor mods.

The iterative balance process takes this one step at a time and allows for more finite adjustments as well as leaving entire steps alone if balance is reached before they are enacted.

That's just a roughed out framework of course, but it should illustrate the concept and context.

One step at a time is key.

Cheers,
Cross

Just to check, did I successfully explain why I'm in favour of scout > sentinel > commando = assault = logi?

I hope I've explained why I feel this is preferable to the OP's suggestion of scout > logi > assault > commando > sentinel.

I've also explained a method of working out the relative levels of base shield regen that should be applied to each role, i.e. fitted suits should experience similar recovery times.

TL/DR
- All fitted racial suits should have similar recovery times.
- Heavier suits should fit more regen, lighter suits less regen.
- Therefore base regen rate progression should either be light > heavy > medium (like now), or light > heavy = medium (like my spreadsheet).

I question how OP having high regen on 200 shields is when the regen doesn't occur while taking damage. Wouldn't matter how much regen they have, their primary tank is still going to be armor and if they managed to get away/killed you before you broke their shields having a high regen wouldn't matter anyway because you've got bigger problems

I believe you did, but you also mentioned you were including the use of fitted mods in your outline correct?

Where as the OP does not include fitted mods in the outlined concept and saves the inclusion of their effects for the following step.

If I have misread your intent and you instead advocate that without mods fitted the relation should be scout > sentinel > commando = assault = logi then please correct me.

Further I will reiterate that while in some cases I could fully support the margins being very small, I do not support a hard and fast X must equal Y method because it constrains fine tuning balance during further development.

As an illustrative example I could support conceptually placing gal and amarr shield regen within 0.1 of each other, but I would not support a methodology that called for them to remain at all times identical to each other.
The same is true for roles, we can push the margins and I am totally open to that discussion, but a hard and fast rule of 'these roles much always remain equal' is something I find too conceptually limiting to be supported.

Thanks for your continued participation
Cross

Just to do a deeper dive in case we're not on the same page.

When defining a suit as "fitted" are you assuming all H/L slots using mods of the same value and being completely filled with tanking mods? Are you assuming a given % of total slots being fitted with tanking mods (as total H/L slot count differs between roles)?

You are defining recovery time as "time it takes to get from 0 HP to full HP" correct? If so is it acceptable in your estimation for that recovery time to be varied in the case of roles or suits that fully buffer tank rather than fit any regen mods?

What ratio of regen mods to buffer mods (and which mods) are you assuming are used?

To make this more tangible, under your proposal what would the fits look like for a Cal Mando and a Cal Assault so that their fitted values ultimately equate?

You do note a guideline for this in your second point, Heavier suits should fit more regen, lighter suits less regen. but the question becomes how are we balancing that. Is one energizer slot on a heavy meant to equal one extender slot on an assault?

What is the base regen rate (HP/s) per buffer rate (raw HP) ratio needed to provide an equal method - considering that extenders are raw HP and regen mods are % based - and how do we account for each role having a viable place within the speed vs eHP curve if suits with higher base buffer HP are also slated to have higher base regen rates?


I know this is quite the pile of questions so allow me to be absolutely clear that they are sincere questions not just a pile of "?" meant to smother alternate ideas. I may not see the path with all of these myself but you are much more firmly acquainted with your idea and thus I rely on you to illuminate it for me
(as to the questions themselves they are the kinds of things which the CPM wrestled with prior to coming to the conclusion that a fundamental method was needed so that mod balance could be adequately addressed).

A lot of this looks more like our (CPM) 'step 2'
#1 is the base suit stats having a method that provides a solid foundation
#2 is tuning the mods (and hopefully adding a few options as well) to give shields more love and diversity
#3 is looking at possible comparative issues with weapons, such a profile bias, this is more of a side step.
#4 is looking at the raw stats of the armor mods.

The iterative balance process takes this one step at a time and allows for more finite adjustments as well as leaving entire steps alone if balance is reached before they are enacted.

That's just a roughed out framework of course, but it should illustrate the concept and context.
[/b]

Cheers,
Cross

Are there any plans to look into the disparity of equipment? Availability of triage hives and rep tool support is a real spoiler that takes away the one advantage shield suits (at least currently) have, primary tank repair speed.