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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 7 post(s)
1st Lieutenant Tiberius 0uter.Heaven 2198	Posted - 2014.09.02 06:17:00 - [1] - Quote Add a sticky for ScR discussion. I don't have the patience or willpower to create a whole post about it but I can definitely answer any data gathering questions you have and hopefully start a discussion My credentials: - User of the Amarr Assault and ScR since it was introduced in Uprising 1.0 has been my main suit until i had enough SP to max out my cores before eventually getting 4 other suits (Amarr Sentinel, Gal Scout, Min Scout and Cal Scout) at around 55m SP currently (open beta vet) - Uses Amarr Assault in Planetary Conquest constantly, more so than any other person I know who plays the game competitively, if there was one I would know but there are few names and especially fewer at this point in time - I know plenty of dedicated Amarr Assault users who I believe will come to discuss the weapon with you if I ask them to, I'm sure there are plenty who will contribute as well I know the weapon is pretty goddamn good in Public Contracts but there are more factors in play in terms of that fact than the weapon or suit itself, if you balance for pub games it will kill the weapon competitively and this goes for every weapon. I highly suggest you read and consider this heavily and start this discussion. If it is balance you are seeking then lets try to find a middle ground where the weapon can coexist nicely in Pub games yet not become worthless compared to other weapons competitively. Stop the vicious Nerf/Buff cycle and start balancing properly, let us try and help. The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1735	Posted - 2014.09.02 09:01:00 - [2] - Quote First of, i am also a Day 1 SCR/Amarr assault suit user and the SCR has been my go to weapon since it was introduced. I mostly always use either Semi-Auto weapons or Bolt Action rifles in CQC because i have a need for re-adjusting my aim after each shot or burst to get a clean headshot. So for this the SCR has been a good weapon for me. I can only provide data about the gun from public games from the standpoint of Solo play as i have not done much planetary conquest experience, but my solo play experience is through the roof. My suggestion for the next hotfix would be to implement a Fix that makes the weapon Jam when used with a Turbo Controller, see how that works out and then see if it needs to be re-adjusted as i think the SCR is the most balanced weapon in the game. Except when used by Turbo controller users. and fixing it so they can no longer use it with a turbo button, they will move on because they do not have the skill required to wield this weapon without it. Ive done some extensive tests in the past with this weapon and the Combat Rifle has always out-performed my SCR at the same level of skill and character skills, the overheat gets me killed in very dicey situations like assaulting 4-6 people, i don't use allot of tactics, just the lets do this mentality as see where it gets me compared to the CR where you duck behind a wall and its reloaded again the 5 second overheats gets me killed. Ive also done click-tests manually and with a venom X and i can achieve the Rof of a turbo controller manually with a mouse, however i will not be able to achieve that same ROF if i have to aim and then try to get in 13 clicks a second, when i use the Venom X in a test-match (only done 1, for testing purposes), then the gun becomes devastating, but only then when using it with a turbo controller. On all other occasions, i do allot better with a Boundless or Six Kin Combat Rifle and this is Solo, no equipment, no orbitals against squads or not. Just check the weapon against Turbo controllers instead of nerfing it, the weapon does not deserve to be put down and while yer at it, add the same code to all the weapons so that people can't use it to negate the recoil on their guns. Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Blacklight (PS4)"

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6457	Posted - 2014.09.02 09:23:00 - [3] - Quote Stickied and edited Thanks for the input. The fact of the matter is that the weapon's efficiency is considerably higher than the rest of the rifle population. Those rifles are also measured against Public matches so doesn't create a comparison bias. Turbo controllers, can be used for more than just the Scrambler, so the numbers should not be biased due to that It is a skill weapon, for sure, which explains why it is less used than the other rifles. I also believe, that even with a majority of the playerbase Armor tanking, it is going to be even more efficient through the shield module improvements we are proposing, after swaying more players over to Shield Tanking. We certainly don't want to overnerf this weapon, just tweak it. ROF changes seem to hit both dps and turbo controllers. What could be an acceptable reduction in ROF? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 2766	Posted - 2014.09.02 09:37:00 - [4] - Quote I believe the only skilled part of the scrambler is the charge shot, normal r1 is just like the other non-assault rifles, you just have to get used to the overheat mechanic and it's even more easy in cqc, because of the tight hipfire. Imo, the scr has always been OP, i don't use it very much just because i don't like the fire on release weapons (same for the ion pistol). I don't know why, but unless you are stacking 800+ armor, it seems to not be affected by that -20% armor efficiency and can kill my gal logi faster than any other rifle in the game. Probably is because most of people who use it are very skilled in it, idk, but i don't feel it's balanced. PSN: ogamega "Dust is full of communists who despise people with enough isk to buy expensive items" LOCK REGIONS
David Spd Caldari State 153	Posted - 2014.09.02 09:39:00 - [5] - Quote Anything that injures turbo controllers is good in my eyes. Isn't it possible to actually detect this sort of thing? Unless Ocelot was lying... MGS 1 said he would know if you used a turbo controller. Not speaking out of experience or anything, but isn't the controller sending both a hardware and software input message? Is it possible to "block" input that is sending a hardware held message while simultaneously sending multiple software inputs from the same button? I've been on the receiving end of turbo controllers with scrambler rifles too many times (probably the most obvious weapon to be used with it) and believe me... it isn't fun. Nobody can flinch press R1 THAT fast... Basically, if you can "block" turbo controllers from doing what they do, that would be fantastic. Please look into doing that. --> I'm a closed beta vet; I just don't post often <-- "Other people just complicate my life." ~Solid Snake
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 17505	Posted - 2014.09.02 09:48:00 - [6] - Quote @Rattati: On the use of turbo controllers not being biased towards the SCR... Why wouldn't they be? There is no other weapon that benefits from turbo controller usage as much as the SCR. Here are the semi-automatic weapons in the game: Scrambler rifle TAR Sniper rifle Ion pistol Scrambler pistol Flaylock pistol The TAR has a load of recoil which makes full-auto fire impractical. The sniper rifle blatantly doesn't benefit from modded controller use. The ion pistol... Is the ion pistol. The scrambler pistol has a slower rate of fire and more of a shot limit. The flaylock has a very low rate of fire. Arguably some burst weapons like the CR might also benefit but in my experience from using a modded controller on them it tends to mess up the 'rhythm' of the shooting and feels off. The SCR, however, is suited to it more than any other weapon for the following reasons: - High maximum rate of fire - Actually gets more shots from firing faster than when it's firing slower, overheat reduced when using modded controllers - High maximum DPS, even if not attainable by normal controllers - Recoil negligible, shots stay on target even at high RoF As for an acceptable reduction in RoF, I strongly suggest you go no lower than 500. Under 500 semi-autos start to feel iffy, as with the nerfed era TAR, ion pistol, etc. I'd suggest trying 600 first, though. Two things I feel are worth considering instead of going straight for a RoF nerf: 1. Change heat build-up to per shot instead of per second. This negates the shot count advantage modded controllers get, which is honestly just disgusting. It also helps encourage better practices like shot counting. 2. I'm not sure how feasible this is, but is it possible to check the input rate of some controllers? If you find a controller firing four times with an identical interval each time, that's inhuman - you could punish that with an instant overheat or weapon jam or something. I doubt it's hotfix material but I feel it's worth considering as a broad fix to modded controller usage. Flying to new horizons.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6457	Posted - 2014.09.02 09:50:00 - [7] - Quote David Spd wrote: Anything that injures turbo controllers is good in my eyes. Isn't it possible to actually detect this sort of thing? Unless Ocelot was lying... MGS 1 said he would know if you used a turbo controller. Not speaking out of experience or anything, but isn't the controller sending both a hardware and software input message? Is it possible to "block" input that is sending a hardware held message while simultaneously sending multiple software inputs from the same button? I've been on the receiving end of turbo controllers with scrambler rifles too many times (probably the most obvious weapon to be used with it) and believe me... it isn't fun. Nobody can flinch press R1 THAT fast... Basically, if you can "block" turbo controllers from doing what they do, that would be fantastic. Please look into doing that. That can not be done in a hotfix, but is one of the key features for a theoretical client update (with sprint bug). "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1736	Posted - 2014.09.02 09:51:00 - [8] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Stickied and edited Thanks for the input. The fact of the matter is that the weapon's efficiency is considerably higher than the rest of the rifle population. Those rifles are also measured against Public matches so doesn't create a comparison bias. Turbo controllers, can be used for more than just the Scrambler, so the numbers should not be biased due to that It is a skill weapon, for sure, which explains why it is less used than the other rifles. I also believe, that even with a majority of the playerbase Armor tanking, it is going to be even more efficient through the shield module improvements we are proposing, after swaying more players over to Shield Tanking. We certainly don't want to overnerf this weapon, just tweak it. ROF changes seem to hit both dps and turbo controllers. What could be an acceptable reduction in ROF? -The higher efficiency you talk about, does that take into the account that the weapon can overheat, because quite frankly if say an assault rifle deals 450 damage per second while it has a clip that can maintain this damage for 6 seconds and a SCR would deal 450 damage per second but can do this for 2 seconds, then what is its overheat purpose ? kick yourself to the floor while yer assaulting someone? -the rof change will just severly hit None-turbo users as we now might have overlap in shots, turbo controller users are not gonna be affected as they do not need to think much when firing and just get the max dps at all times, where fingers are quite allot less perfect and can mess up. I would propose to Fix the Turbo controller issue first, then see if any of the rifles, you say that more are used with Turbo, then why not FIX that first, level the playing field and then balance the weapons ? It seems a bit counter productive to fix and lower rof on weapons based on turbo controller use, wouldnt it be easier to fox turbo abuse and then see how all the weapons work ? You are never going to balance the weapons when 1 person gets shot with turbo and the other not, but balance it as if it wasn't used with turbo, afterwards, the turbo guy will still have the same advantage as before. Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Blacklight (PS4)"
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 2983	Posted - 2014.09.02 10:21:00 - [9] - Quote CCP could it be possibly that the weapon proficiency skill be reverted back to % damage rather than % damage to a tanking type. This would make it so shield based weapons aren't so weak when dealing with armor, and that if somebody decides to not hybrid thank that a specialized weapon won't shred through them like butter. If the goal is to stop or at least promote tanking of one type then weapons shouldn't be so punishing when it comes to that. I can provide a spreadsheet that will highlight the effects of this. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
I-Shayz-I I----------I 4738	Posted - 2014.09.02 10:26:00 - [10] - Quote Please go to http://www.beatsperminuteonline.com/ and see how fast you can press a key on a keyboard repeatedly. Now do the same thing, but try and press it only TWICE and see what kinds of crazy numbers you can get for the small delay between two button presses that is NOT just an average over time. I get about 650-750 EASILY, but then again I have a Fast Trigger Finger (video of in-game firing) 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!

Francois Sanchez What The French Red Whines. 100	Posted - 2014.09.02 10:33:00 - [11] - Quote Rei Shepard wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Stickied and edited Thanks for the input. The fact of the matter is that the weapon's efficiency is considerably higher than the rest of the rifle population. Those rifles are also measured against Public matches so doesn't create a comparison bias. Turbo controllers, can be used for more than just the Scrambler, so the numbers should not be biased due to that It is a skill weapon, for sure, which explains why it is less used than the other rifles. I also believe, that even with a majority of the playerbase Armor tanking, it is going to be even more efficient through the shield module improvements we are proposing, after swaying more players over to Shield Tanking. We certainly don't want to overnerf this weapon, just tweak it. ROF changes seem to hit both dps and turbo controllers. What could be an acceptable reduction in ROF? -The higher efficiency you talk about, does that take into the account that the weapon can overheat, because quite frankly if say an assault rifle deals 450 damage per second while it has a clip that can maintain this damage for 6 seconds and a SCR would deal 450 damage per second but can do this for 2 seconds, then what is its overheat purpose ? kick yourself to the floor while yer assaulting someone? -the rof change will just severly hit None-turbo users as we now might have overlap in shots, turbo controller users are not gonna be affected as they do not need to think much when firing and just get the max dps at all times, where fingers are quite allot less perfect and can mess up. I would propose to Fix the Turbo controller issue first, then see if any of the rifles, you say that more are used with Turbo, then why not FIX that first, level the playing field and then balance the weapons ? It seems a bit counter productive to fix and lower rof on weapons based on turbo controller use, wouldnt it be easier to fox turbo abuse and then see how all the weapons work ? You are never going to balance the weapons when 1 person gets shot with turbo and the other not, but balance it as if it wasn't used with turbo, afterwards, the turbo guy will still have the same advantage as before. As long as they don't nerf the RoF too heavily, the only guys seeing the difference will be turbo controllers users. Humans generally can't get over 420 RPM, so if they lower it let's say to 500 RPM (so that guys with a trigger speed above average can still benefit of it), only the turbo controllers will be affected. And with a fire rate of 500 RPM (if you can reach it), you would have a DPS of around 600HP/s without damage mods, fairly over the assault rifle. Also keep in mind that the scrambler rifle isn't supposed to be only a rapid firing weapon, you're supposed to use the charge shot, and that's that rifle strength. If you prepare a charge shot, and then press the trigger 7 times during the rest of the second (420RPM), you'll easily get over 800HP/s. So even with the same DPS than an assault rifle (which requires a huge RoF nerf, won't happen I suppose), there would still be a use to the scrambler. Moreover, the 450 DPS of the AR needs all your bullets to hit, whereas the accuracy of the gun isn't that great, especially when compared to the scrambler rifle
CommanderBolt Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 1458	Posted - 2014.09.02 10:59:00 - [12] - Quote CCP I believe the 600+ ish region would be good for the semi auto scrambler. I also really really hope you would look at giving the TAC AR a similar RoF as well as give the TAC AR a few more rounds in the magazine. I feel that the Tac AR and the Scrambler Rifle should be balanced somewhat closely together as they both offer that almost 'DMR' type gameplay that a small but good core of ALL FPS players love to use. I want to be that guy with the TAC AR again, I appreciate the small buff the TAC AR got before but it isn't quite enough. I am Caldari! I want my Hybrid tech not this fancy religious laser beam stuff! I know this thread is specifically for the SCR but I just felt the TAC AR should also be considered in this thread as it serves a very very similar role. -=#[ Gastun's Forge ]#=- MY LIFE FOR AIUR! "I'm wasting away here" - "Get me back into zee fight!
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1736	Posted - 2014.09.02 11:08:00 - [13] - Quote Francois Sanchez wrote: Rei Shepard wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Stickied and edited Thanks for the input. The fact of the matter is that the weapon's efficiency is considerably higher than the rest of the rifle population. Those rifles are also measured against Public matches so doesn't create a comparison bias. Turbo controllers, can be used for more than just the Scrambler, so the numbers should not be biased due to that It is a skill weapon, for sure, which explains why it is less used than the other rifles. I also believe, that even with a majority of the playerbase Armor tanking, it is going to be even more efficient through the shield module improvements we are proposing, after swaying more players over to Shield Tanking. We certainly don't want to overnerf this weapon, just tweak it. ROF changes seem to hit both dps and turbo controllers. What could be an acceptable reduction in ROF? -The higher efficiency you talk about, does that take into the account that the weapon can overheat, because quite frankly if say an assault rifle deals 450 damage per second while it has a clip that can maintain this damage for 6 seconds and a SCR would deal 450 damage per second but can do this for 2 seconds, then what is its overheat purpose ? kick yourself to the floor while yer assaulting someone? -the rof change will just severly hit None-turbo users as we now might have overlap in shots, turbo controller users are not gonna be affected as they do not need to think much when firing and just get the max dps at all times, where fingers are quite allot less perfect and can mess up. I would propose to Fix the Turbo controller issue first, then see if any of the rifles, you say that more are used with Turbo, then why not FIX that first, level the playing field and then balance the weapons ? It seems a bit counter productive to fix and lower rof on weapons based on turbo controller use, wouldnt it be easier to fox turbo abuse and then see how all the weapons work ? You are never going to balance the weapons when 1 person gets shot with turbo and the other not, but balance it as if it wasn't used with turbo, afterwards, the turbo guy will still have the same advantage as before. As long as they don't nerf the RoF too heavily, the only guys seeing the difference will be turbo controllers users. Humans generally can't get over 420 RPM, so if they lower it let's say to 500 RPM (so that guys with a trigger speed above average can still benefit of it), only the turbo controllers will be affected. And with a fire rate of 500 RPM (if you can reach it), you would have a DPS of around 600HP/s without damage mods, fairly over the assault rifle. Also keep in mind that the scrambler rifle isn't supposed to be only a rapid firing weapon, you're supposed to use the charge shot, and that's that rifle strength. If you prepare a charge shot, and then press the trigger 7 times during the rest of the second (420RPM), you'll easily get over 800HP/s. So even with the same DPS than an assault rifle (which requires a huge RoF nerf, won't happen I suppose), there would still be a use to the scrambler. Moreover, the 450 DPS of the AR needs all your bullets to hit, whereas the accuracy of the gun isn't that great, especially when compared to the scrambler rifle Seriously, the 420 human rpm crap again ? thats 7 shots a second, 500 is still only 8 shots, i can do 13 a second, now actually landing shots at 13 a second is gonna be an issue, witch the turbo user has no problems with. But really you can only click 7 times a second ? you quickly forget that with the SCR you only have a 2 second of operation time to deal your damage, after those 2 seconds its sidearm or overheat, while the AR has ample clip to keep dealing its damage for the next 4 additional seconds. Basically if you nerf the Scrambler to a maximum of say 16 shots with All skills at level 5 and an amarr Assault suit at lvl V, meaning anyone else using the weapons without those skills is gonna see what 8-10 shots Max, before it overheats, witch in this case means a 1 second of operation time or 620 damage dealt. Hmm 450 Damage/ second over a period of 6 seconds or 620 damage for 1 second with 5 seconds of overheat = 103 dps for the guy picking up the weapon for the first time, i dont think there is gonna be a second time. Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Blacklight (PS4)"
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3417	Posted - 2014.09.02 11:13:00 - [14] - Quote Rei Shepherd wrote: -The higher efficiency you talk about, does that take into the account that the weapon can overheat, because quite frankly if say an assault rifle deals 450 damage per second while it has a clip that can maintain this damage for 6 seconds and a SCR would deal 450 damage per second but can do this for 2 seconds, then what is its overheat purpose ? kick yourself to the floor while yer assaulting someone? -the rof change will just severly hit None-turbo users as we now might have overlap in shots, turbo controller users are not gonna be affected as they do not need to think much when firing and just get the max dps at all times, where fingers are quite allot less perfect and can mess up. I would propose to Fix the Turbo controller issue first, then see if any of the rifles, you say that more are used with Turbo, then why not FIX that first, level the playing field and then balance the weapons ? It seems a bit counter productive to fix and lower rof on weapons based on turbo controller use, wouldnt it be easier to fox turbo abuse and then see how all the weapons work ? You are never going to balance the weapons when 1 person gets shot with turbo and the other not, but balance it as if it wasn't used with turbo, afterwards, the turbo guy will still have the same advantage as before. When he talks about efficiency he means in match effectiveness, the ScR is getting higher KDR and lower kill times than the other weapons, this is because it's a front loaded weapon. The ScR works by doing large amounts of damage for a short period of time, they bsing incapacitated due to overheat constraints. But this creates an operational problem. The overheat is only a problem if you can't kill your opponent before you reach that overheat. In any other scenario, you've already killed that guy so what difference does it matter? Now alot of scrambler rifle user rebuke this by saying, but as soon as you put it against 2 people it's balanced. Which is a biased arguement, since their is just an equal chance their will only be one of them and two of you. Furthermore most weapons would look underpowered/balanced when pitched against 2 enemies. That's kinda the point of teamwork. Anyway I'm starting to digress, you say it balanced against 2 people, which means in order to reliably beat an ScR user of average skill, you need 2 people of average skill weilding a different set of weapons. One as cannon fodder and one to finish you off. So what happens when 8 memebers of your team run a scrambler rifle, you need 8 pairs to engage them, aka the entire enemy team, which bearing in mind their are still 8 people on your team left running around creates a serious force imbalance. We infact end up with a similar situation that tankers were in, if takes more than 1 person to reliably defeat another you get a force inbalance. Now another common rebuttal is, but there is more armour tankers than shield tankers, now whole this fact is currently true, both your self and I are aware that was never always the case, in fact shields have still being paying for that since the armour buff. But here's the thing if we look at the new Projectile profile damage of -15/+15, if shields become the most preferred tank type again, is it fair that the CR gets a damage buff in order to deal with the over popularity of shields? No? So why is it fair to give such a bonus to the ScR? Finally people use the, it's the most skilled weapon in the game, you and I both know that's a barefaced lie, the Scrambler has similar behaviour to the other 3 rifles types, their is no travel time, their is no lower accuracy or smaller shots that are more likely to miss, nothing. The only thing skillful about the ScR is not overheating but getting close to doing so. In my opinion the ScR needs a DPS only marginally better than the AR, (460 probably) and slightly slower overheat. This still gives enough DOT to kill most suits before the overheat, but skill comes intomthe equation alot more. The weapon also becomes less useful in CQC because with the low accuracy enviroment the overheat becomes a much mkre severly limiting factor. I would achieve this by nerfing both DPS and Damage to around 8 shots per second (8.45 to be precise) and the relevamt damage, 58 per shot. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
iKILLu osborne Dead Man's Game 253	Posted - 2014.09.02 11:14:00 - [15] - Quote i don't mind as long as it still has the smooth rof non turbos experience. I'm prof.5 all i ask is that you don't break my gun and invalidate my sp choices "uh guys" "i got to go back to the depot that installation made me crap my dropsuit"
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP 884	Posted - 2014.09.02 11:16:00 - [16] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Stickied and edited Thanks for the input. The fact of the matter is that the weapon's efficiency is considerably higher than the rest of the rifle population. Those rifles are also measured against Public matches so doesn't create a comparison bias. Turbo controllers, can be used for more than just the Scrambler, so the numbers should not be biased due to that It is a skill weapon, for sure, which explains why it is less used than the other rifles. I also believe, that even with a majority of the playerbase Armor tanking, it is going to be even more efficient through the shield module improvements we are proposing, after swaying more players over to Shield Tanking. We certainly don't want to overnerf this weapon, just tweak it. ROF changes seem to hit both dps and turbo controllers. What could be an acceptable reduction in ROF? ROF reductions are not the answer. PLEASE forget about turbo controllers when looking for the changes to be made. A few people desperate enough to win that they use these cheap tactics ruining weapons for the rest of us so that they can just move on to the next weapon should not be able to ruin something for all of us. I would personally vote for an increase in hip fire dispersion. The biggest misuse of the weapon is seen using hip fire in CQC and the weapon is intended to be mid range. Also when aiming down sights at medium to long range where the enemy can dance around firing fast becomes far less useful compared to accurate shots.
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1736	Posted - 2014.09.02 11:34:00 - [17] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Rei Shepherd wrote: -The higher efficiency you talk about, does that take into the account that the weapon can overheat, because quite frankly if say an assault rifle deals 450 damage per second while it has a clip that can maintain this damage for 6 seconds and a SCR would deal 450 damage per second but can do this for 2 seconds, then what is its overheat purpose ? kick yourself to the floor while yer assaulting someone? -the rof change will just severly hit None-turbo users as we now might have overlap in shots, turbo controller users are not gonna be affected as they do not need to think much when firing and just get the max dps at all times, where fingers are quite allot less perfect and can mess up. I would propose to Fix the Turbo controller issue first, then see if any of the rifles, you say that more are used with Turbo, then why not FIX that first, level the playing field and then balance the weapons ? It seems a bit counter productive to fix and lower rof on weapons based on turbo controller use, wouldnt it be easier to fox turbo abuse and then see how all the weapons work ? You are never going to balance the weapons when 1 person gets shot with turbo and the other not, but balance it as if it wasn't used with turbo, afterwards, the turbo guy will still have the same advantage as before. When he talks about efficiency he means in match effectiveness, the ScR is getting higher KDR and lower kill times than the other weapons, this is because it's a front loaded weapon. The ScR works by doing large amounts of damage for a short period of time, they bsing incapacitated due to overheat constraints. But this creates an operational problem. The overheat is only a problem if you can't kill your opponent before you reach that overheat. In any other scenario, you've already killed that guy so what difference does it matter? Now alot of scrambler rifle user rebuke this by saying, but as soon as you put it against 2 people it's balanced. Which is a biased arguement, since their is just an equal chance their will only be one of them and two of you. Furthermore most weapons would look underpowered/balanced when pitched against 2 enemies. That's kinda the point of teamwork. Anyway I'm starting to digress, you say it balanced against 2 people, which means in order to reliably beat an ScR user of average skill, you need 2 people of average skill weilding a different set of weapons. One as cannon fodder and one to finish you off. So what happens when 8 memebers of your team run a scrambler rifle, you need 8 pairs to engage them, aka the entire enemy team, which bearing in mind their are still 8 people on your team left running around creates a serious force imbalance. We infact end up with a similar situation that tankers were in, if takes more than 1 person to reliably defeat another you get a force inbalance. Now another common rebuttal is, but there is more armour tankers than shield tankers, now whole this fact is currently true, both your self and I are aware that was never always the case, in fact shields have still being paying for that since the armour buff. But here's the thing if we look at the new Projectile profile damage of -15/+15, if shields become the most preferred tank type again, is it fair that the CR gets a damage buff in order to deal with the over popularity of shields? No? So why is it fair to give such a bonus to the ScR? Finally people use the, it's the most skilled weapon in the game, you and I both know that's a barefaced lie, the Scrambler has similar behaviour to the other 3 rifles types, their is no travel time, their is no lower accuracy or smaller shots that are more likely to miss, nothing. The only thing skillful about the ScR is not overheating but getting close to doing so. In my opinion the ScR needs a DPS only marginally better than the AR, (460 probably) and slightly slower overheat. This still gives enough DOT to kill most suits before the overheat, but skill comes intomthe equation alot more. The weapon also becomes less useful in CQC because with the low accuracy enviroment the overheat becomes a much mkre severly limiting factor. I would achieve this by nerfing both DPS and Damage to around 8 shots per second (8.45 to be precise) and the relevamt damage, 58 per shot. When we use the argument about the 2 vs 1, we mean that if we had another weapon like the Combat rifle in our hands we would still have been able to kill those 2 instead of dying due to a error on use of the SCR, mainly the overheat. Overheat is always an issue that you need to keep in the back of your mind, having to keep track of something put a burden on the user, even if it does not happen. Also about the KDR, less users use the weapon, most users of the SCR are better then average players, so while scrubs don't polute the database with missed shots and less deaths (everyone uses an AR at the start), ofcourse its KDR is gonna be allot higher. Quote: Finally people use the, it's the most skilled weapon in the game, you and I both know that's a barefaced lie, the Scrambler has similar behaviour to the other 3 rifles types, their is no travel time, their is no lower accuracy or smaller shots that are more likely to miss, nothing. The only thing skillful about the ScR is not overheating but getting close to doing so. And yet i can't come close to the things i can pull off with a RR or CR then what i can do with the SCR, yet when i run 87/3 with the CR, not as much as a single mail, but hooboy if i run 60/5 with the SCR, ill have at least 1 or 2 mails about how OP it is. Compared to how effortless the CR is to use, the SCR fails short at that by a mile. Face it, most skilled people gravitate towards, difficult weapons to use with allot of Alpha Strike damage, most regular players gravitate to the easiest weapons to use. Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Blacklight (PS4)"
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1736	Posted - 2014.09.02 11:37:00 - [18] - Quote Fix the turbo controller issue first, then see where the weapons are at, i bet there won"t be allot of scramblers left. Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Blacklight (PS4)"
Francois Sanchez What The French Red Whines. 101	Posted - 2014.09.02 11:54:00 - [19] - Quote Rei Shepard wrote: Francois Sanchez wrote: Rei Shepard wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Stickied and edited Thanks for the input. The fact of the matter is that the weapon's efficiency is considerably higher than the rest of the rifle population. Those rifles are also measured against Public matches so doesn't create a comparison bias. Turbo controllers, can be used for more than just the Scrambler, so the numbers should not be biased due to that It is a skill weapon, for sure, which explains why it is less used than the other rifles. I also believe, that even with a majority of the playerbase Armor tanking, it is going to be even more efficient through the shield module improvements we are proposing, after swaying more players over to Shield Tanking. We certainly don't want to overnerf this weapon, just tweak it. ROF changes seem to hit both dps and turbo controllers. What could be an acceptable reduction in ROF? -The higher efficiency you talk about, does that take into the account that the weapon can overheat, because quite frankly if say an assault rifle deals 450 damage per second while it has a clip that can maintain this damage for 6 seconds and a SCR would deal 450 damage per second but can do this for 2 seconds, then what is its overheat purpose ? kick yourself to the floor while yer assaulting someone? -the rof change will just severly hit None-turbo users as we now might have overlap in shots, turbo controller users are not gonna be affected as they do not need to think much when firing and just get the max dps at all times, where fingers are quite allot less perfect and can mess up. I would propose to Fix the Turbo controller issue first, then see if any of the rifles, you say that more are used with Turbo, then why not FIX that first, level the playing field and then balance the weapons ? It seems a bit counter productive to fix and lower rof on weapons based on turbo controller use, wouldnt it be easier to fox turbo abuse and then see how all the weapons work ? You are never going to balance the weapons when 1 person gets shot with turbo and the other not, but balance it as if it wasn't used with turbo, afterwards, the turbo guy will still have the same advantage as before. As long as they don't nerf the RoF too heavily, the only guys seeing the difference will be turbo controllers users. Humans generally can't get over 420 RPM, so if they lower it let's say to 500 RPM (so that guys with a trigger speed above average can still benefit of it), only the turbo controllers will be affected. And with a fire rate of 500 RPM (if you can reach it), you would have a DPS of around 600HP/s without damage mods, fairly over the assault rifle. Also keep in mind that the scrambler rifle isn't supposed to be only a rapid firing weapon, you're supposed to use the charge shot, and that's that rifle strength. If you prepare a charge shot, and then press the trigger 7 times during the rest of the second (420RPM), you'll easily get over 800HP/s. So even with the same DPS than an assault rifle (which requires a huge RoF nerf, won't happen I suppose), there would still be a use to the scrambler. Moreover, the 450 DPS of the AR needs all your bullets to hit, whereas the accuracy of the gun isn't that great, especially when compared to the scrambler rifle Seriously, the 420 human rpm crap again ? thats 7 shots a second, 500 is still only 8 shots, i can do 13 a second, now actually landing shots at 13 a second is gonna be an issue, witch the turbo user has no problems with. But really you can only click 7 times a second ? you quickly forget that with the SCR you only have a 2 second of operation time to deal your damage, after those 2 seconds its sidearm or overheat, while the AR has ample clip to keep dealing its damage for the next 4 additional seconds. Basically if you nerf the Scrambler to a maximum of say 16 shots with All skills at level 5 and an amarr Assault suit at lvl V, meaning anyone else using the weapons without those skills is gonna see what 8-10 shots Max, before it overheats, witch in this case means a 1 second of operation time or 620 damage dealt. Hmm 450 Damage/ second over a period of 6 seconds or 620 damage for 1 second with 5 seconds of overheat = 103 dps for the guy picking up the weapon for the first time, i dont think there is gonna be a second time. The 420RPM is what I find a bit everywhere, of course that's only realistic for people using controllers, you can go much faster with mouse and keyboard, but this is a PS3 game, and I personally see mouse and keyboard as unfair as turbo contoller for the numerous advantages it grants. Now about the overheat thing, taking into account the time you overheat for your DPS isn't right as the guy is supposed to be dead. A scrambler rifle on an Amarr assault can fire 16 17 or 18 bullets (I don't remember exactly). Without damage mods and proficiency skills the viziam scrambler rifle deals 71 damage per shot. So you can easily get over 1100HP before overheating, outside sentinels, who can take that in the face and survive? And you can always swap to your sidearm before overheating. I've tried a bit the CRW-04 scrambler on my Min scout (no damage mods, no proficiency skills) with a SMG as secondary weapon and I was destroying my opponents whereas I'm far to be an elite player and I probably press the button around 8 times per second to keep my accuracy. And if the overheat mechanic is fine atm, in what a RoF nerf would change it? The heat is generated by bullet shot and your weapon is cooling between shots if you don't shoot too fast, so I really don't see where the problem is
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 195	Posted - 2014.09.02 12:19:00 - [20] - Quote Incrementally drop the RoF over a course of hotfixes, until we reach a number that works. For Delta, start off with 600, 10 rounds per second. A nice number to start from, don't you think? If that doesn't work, drop it to 540 in Echo , 9 rounds per second. If that doesn't work, drop it to 480 in Foxtrot, 8 rounds per second. I very much doubt we will ever have to go below that.

matsumoto yuichi san The Elite Few Inc. The Methodical Alliance 45	Posted - 2014.09.02 12:42:00 - [21] - Quote Hello, I don't post much on the forums but i think we have to consider looking into the statistics a little more before doing something, should take but a moment. Rattati you have mentioned that the SCR has better than average for all rifles in terms of efficiency, but also that it is less used than he other rifles, let me ask you what is the STD for how much better the eff % is, and more importantly what is the std of the number of players using it,. I am simply concerned that we aren't comparing apples to apples here, a skill focused weapon whose only remaining users were those on the upper end of the skill bell curve would skew the weapon towards being more efficient than it's counterparts, simply because the sample population isn't comparable. now after looking into that it may be that some adjustment is needed, i can however tell you that the ROF is a tricky thing it will definitely hurt turbos which is great, but as others have stated you can double tap fast enough to hit a lower cap which will feel odd. More importantly though i think it won't have near the effect you want, as others have mentioned there is a lot of front load on the DPS of the rifle especially with the charge. this means there are some engagements where the opponent can't return fire, but usually the SCR user then has to take cover to cool down from near Overheat or Overheat. and I have been using the laser and scr exclusively since they came out btw :)
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 1039	Posted - 2014.09.02 12:49:00 - [22] - Quote matsumoto yuichi san wrote: I am simply concerned that we aren't comparing apples to apples here, a skill focused weapon whose only remaining users were those on the upper end of the skill bell curve would skew the weapon towards being more efficient than it's counterparts, simply because the sample population isn't comparable. It's possible to take that into account (KDR or WP/s stats partitioned by weapon). I'm fairly certain Rattati has the chops to consider that, given his background. Dust/Eve transfers
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3420	Posted - 2014.09.02 13:36:00 - [23] - Quote Rei Shepard wrote: When we use the argument about the 2 vs 1, we mean that if we had another weapon like the Combat rifle in our hands we would still have been able to kill those 2 instead of dying due to a error on use of the SCR, mainly the overheat. This is nothing to do with weapon balance at all then since this down to your ability to dodge shots or your opponents inability to land them. We can further perpetuate this arguement to say that with enough skill you take on the entire enemy team simultaneously, this doesn't make the weapon you used OP, it makes your enemy absolutely terrible. Being unable to take out 2 people does not make weapon balanced anymore than going 25/0 with an Ion Pistol makes it OP. Overheat is always an issue that you need to keep in the back of your mind, having to keep track of something put a burden on the user, even if it does not happen. Yet you assume the CR user does not have to keep an eye on his ever dwindling magazine, or the RR user having to take into account his charge time, most of the weapons have a downpoint that must be monitored the ScR is no more special in that regard. Futhermore your opinion that it is shows bias to your weapon, you are in effect showing you have a vested intrest in maintaining the weapons current effectiveness. Also about the KDR, less users use the weapon, most users of the SCR are better then average players, so while scrubs don't polute the database with missed shots and less deaths (everyone uses an AR at the start), ofcourse its KDR is gonna be allot higher. You have data for this? Don't forget the Rifles were all recently given mlt variants which are applied directly to frontline fits, so if we assume amarr is 25% of the population, that's a whole lot of newbies who are now using that weapon which would systematically give you a deluge of unskilled players to even out the data points. Once again the fact you assume that the ScR is used by only the skilled individuals of this game, raises two points. Why are there skilled individuals in other weapon discipline? Why aren't the skilled users also using the other weapons in equal measure? Quote: Finally people use the, it's the most skilled weapon in the game, you and I both know that's a barefaced lie, the Scrambler has similar behaviour to the other 3 rifles types, their is no travel time, their is no lower accuracy or smaller shots that are more likely to miss, nothing. The only thing skillful about the ScR is not overheating but getting close to doing so. And yet i can't come close to the things i can pull off with a RR or CR then what i can do with the SCR, yet when i run 87/3 with the CR, not as much as a single mail, but hooboy if i run 60/5 with the SCR, ill have at least 1 or 2 mails about how OP it is. Maybe you need to reassess your skill level then, you are clearly better at those 2 rifles. Once again your using your circumstantial experience as justification for a weapon. If I go 46/2 with a Bolt Pistol and 25/3 with a SMG is the Bolt Pistol OP? No of course not, but I've just pulled 2 numbers that would say otherwise. Once again your arguement is based upon circumstantial evidence which has no real bearing on the discussion at hand. Compared to how effortless the CR is to use, the SCR fails short at that by a mile. Yet my little brother can't use it, but he absolutely wrecks with the AR. The only difference in terms of the two weapons is you get a 2.4 seconds to overheat and the CR gets 3.2 seconds to reload, though bear in mind cooldown on the ScR is faster is you avoid overheating the weapon, reloading is not. Face it, most skilled people gravitate towards, difficult weapons to use with allot of Alpha Strike damage, most regular players gravitate to the easiest weapons to use.Yet more circumstantial evidence, you have no data to prove this, I however have the following examples that help to disprove this. BURST HMG - Front Loaded by design currently overused and Overperforming SHOTGUN - Naturally a front loaded weapon overused and Overperforming LASER RIFLE - Rear Loaded weapon increasingly uncommon FORGE GUN - Rear Loaded weapin, only used for tower sniping I don't doubt the ScR is a front loaded weapon, but that's exactly why it doesn't work as a 'general purpose rifle' their are no operational drawbacks that make it difficult to use in the majority of situations. For example the Sniper Rifle is a front-loaded weapon, high alpha damage, slow ROF. But absolutely sucks if your opponent knows your their or is close quarters. Shotgun front loaded, high alpha, slow ROF, even at 20m range all it does is tickle you. Only works if your oppoenet is given little time to react (hence cloaks currently making them overperform) The ScR on the other hand, has the 2nd best range of any rifle, high ammo count, high alpha, high ROF, decent accuracy across all ranges and overheat that rarely goes off before you kill your opoonent. There are no limiting drawbacks to the ScR as a front loaded weapon, which is precisely why it's unbalanced. In short you entire argument is based upon circumstantial evidence and made up opinions, your vested intrest in the weapon is clearly visible and you prodice no valid reason for the ScR being allowed to perform at it's curent effectiveness. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3420	Posted - 2014.09.02 13:45:00 - [24] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Incrementally drop the RoF over a course of hotfixes, until we reach a number that works. For Delta, start off with 600, 10 rounds per second. A nice number to start from, don't you think? If that doesn't work, drop it to 540 in Echo , 9 rounds per second. If that doesn't work, drop it to 480 in Foxtrot, 8 rounds per second. I very much doubt we will ever have to go below that. Also make the heat buildup per shot, if possible without a client update. If not possible, enact ASAP. I never understood why the heat mechanics are all time based in this game. It should all be per shot and percentage based, not time held. Because if you look at the majority of weapons that overheat, you hold down the fire button for prolonged periods of time, which is traditionally what overheat is designed to discourage. Small Blaster Small Railgun Large Blaster Large Railgun HMG Laser Rifle Implementing a Heat per second mechanic is considerably more effecient on these weapons than a heat per shot, which must call a 'heat increase' function with every shot, with each function taking up valuable processing power and being called upwards of 10 times a second in the case of most of these weapons, you end slowing your game down. Unfortunately the lack of programming proficent devs (who are capable of working with the 'deep code') meant certain shortcuts had to be made, the ScR heat mechanic was one of those such shortcuts. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
I-Shayz-I I----------I 4745	Posted - 2014.09.02 14:57:00 - [25] - Quote http://youtu.be/zbRET--TCwg Here's some recent gameplay of the scrambler to show its effectiveness and the speed at which someone can fire. BTW, I run a complex kin cat on my Amarr Assault :P 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 714	Posted - 2014.09.02 15:03:00 - [26] - Quote Two points: - I'd guess that the SCR is extremely unpopular with new players. That means the average KDR with an SCR is going to be that of a veteran player while the KDR of a AR will be an average of both old and new players. - I wouldn't mind a ROF reduction. I don't think the SCR is supposed to be a 'spammable' CQC-weapon, so make a limited ROF a part of the concept. Maybe even increase damage in return. BTW, remember that a SCR user generally has to sacrifice some tank to be able to fit that weapon. For reference, a PRO SCR uses 92/20 CPU/PG while a PRO CR comes in at 81/8 (source is protofits). Applying a standard conversion of 5 CPU/PG you realize the SCR uses ~59% more fitting space than a CR. Maybe fix that another day if you want to balance the weapon's efficiencies first, but keep it in mind.
1st Lieutenant Tiberius 0uter.Heaven 2209	Posted - 2014.09.02 15:31:00 - [27] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: What could be an acceptable reduction in ROF? I'm not sure about what the exact numbers would be appropriate but as long as the ROF levels present the balance between screwing over turbo controllers and yet allowing human levels of fire is key, I believe. I've always been an advocate for firing in volleys, charge shot followed by 2 or 3 follow up shots, i don't have the quickest trigger finger but usually these volley shots are when I am able to pump out rounds quite quickly, the only request I have is that if you do implement ROF you do so to counter turbo controller abuse and not doing to the ScR what happened to the Tac Rifle. It is a semi auto rifle and I rely on it firing as fast and as many times as I can humanly press the trigger, as long as i'm not clicking more times than rounds are coming out of the barrel (which was the issue with Post-nerf TAC) then I think we should be good. Also I suggest not touching the heat sink on the Amarr Assault (Idk if it's considered but I'm gonna address it anyway), as it truly is the best bonus you have included in this game hands down (the ScR and the Amarr Assault are good individually but together as a weapons system it becomes truly deadly, this is cool you should focus on bonuses like this especially for the other assault suits) and if things like these are changed it will literally affect muscle memory, at least for me. I spent a year and a bit mastering the weapon and its mechanics and changing something that is engrained in my muscles would be a bad thing. Maybe a combination of ROF tweak + changing heat build up to per-shot instead of per-weapon could work out to trump turbo controllers? Regarding Pubs and PC, I obviously cannot relate in terms of raw data coming out of both ends but as a player I can tell you that PC and pubs are a completely different environment. The strengths that make the weapon seem OP in a pub setting makes it "useable" in PC where Heavies with Six Kin's are around every corner, shotgun scouts are always behind you and most people post up on high ground. The hipfire ability lets me get off one well placed volley to a heavy or a scout that gets up on my face allowing me to engage with my sidearm (usually futile against heavies but sometimes I make it out alive) and the high burst damage allows me to pick off high ground targets or at least get them to back off for a window of opportunity. In a Pub game I hardly get under 20 kills a game but in a tough PC like against Fatal Absolution last night (bridge map) I think I went 19/10 for the first game and 10/9 for the second game alternating between Amarr Assault and my Speed Hack Min scout, being the one Amarr Assault + ScR user out of 32 players and also being completely outscored by 3 other (amazing) shotty scouts from my team and the opposing team where the 3 of them combined for over 65 kills, in Planetary Conquest mind you. I speak from experience when I say that the Suit and Weapons performance does not equate when observing them from these two different environments. Changing something to perform less overbearingly in Public contracts will and always has affected its performance in Planetary Conquest exponentially, hopefully what we can come out of this is a compromise that prevents this from happening again. But I think the focus should be on quelling the turbo users. The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2479	Posted - 2014.09.02 15:51:00 - [28] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: Two points: - I'd guess that the SCR is extremely unpopular with new players. That means the average KDR with an SCR is going to be that of a veteran player while the KDR of a AR will be an average of both old and new players. - I wouldn't mind a ROF reduction. I don't think the SCR is supposed to be a 'spammable' CQC-weapon, so make a limited ROF a part of the concept. Maybe even increase damage in return. BTW, remember that a SCR user generally has to sacrifice some tank to be able to fit that weapon. For reference, a PRO SCR uses 92/20 CPU/PG while a PRO CR comes in at 81/8 (source is protofits). Applying a standard conversion of 5 CPU/PG you realize the SCR uses ~59% more fitting space than a CR. Maybe fix that another day if you want to balance the weapon's efficiencies first, but keep it in mind. most new players will see a scram in the killfeed over an over and be like "It must be OP! I should use it!" then they figure out it's not an instant-win butan and discard it until they havemore SP and come back to the weapon. Don't get me wrong, I love the scram, but the primary reason I don't use it is the cost of the dropsuits and fittings you have to field to make the weapon beastly. Honestly it's why I mostly stick to standard weapons and bust out the good stuff when I feel like being an A**hole.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2479	Posted - 2014.09.02 16:08:00 - [29] - Quote Commenting on a per-statement basis. Responses in boldface. The fact of the matter is that the weapon's efficiency is considerably higher than the rest of the rifle population. Wasn't expecting to see that, but given the number of times I've been on the receiving end I should not be shocked. Those rifles are also measured against Public matches so doesn't create a comparison bias. Have to measure them in pubs IMHO because that's where every single player goes. All of the good, bad and mediocre play pubs, so it's a broad comparison. balancing based on a niche population who can make a weapon dance as opposed to general use isn't a good thing. Turbo controllers, can be used for more than just the Scrambler, so the numbers should not be biased due to that I don't honestly believe for a split-second that Turbo controllers are the sole contributing factor here. Scrambler rifles are most effective by dealing a full charge shot from surprise before 2-3 snap-fires. This is more than enough to take out 90% of dropsuits fielded. You cannot charge shot with the turbo loaded. It just doesn't work. The absolutely raw alpha damage the weapon inflicts is an issue but the efficiency of the weapon actually suffers when you do not charge the thing first for an opening alpha strike. It is a skill weapon, for sure, which explains why it is less used than the other rifles. Tends to be unpopular because it isn't an easy weapon to learn to use efficiently. But once you do, it's a nightmare to deal with. I also believe, that even with a majority of the playerbase Armor tanking, it is going to be even more efficient through the shield module improvements we are proposing, after swaying more players over to Shield Tanking. Changing the Combat rifle use stats will change that quite a bit, mostly because people will be forced to pick their poisons. But I think the Scram does too much damage on a per-shot basis (uncharged) to make a simple Rate of Fire change that doesn't significantly hack down the utility of the weapon viable as a balance. Bringing it to 500-ish nerfs the modded controllers, but keeps it above most players' ability to spam a trigger. I'm dubious that any player realistically jumps the rate of fire manually higher than 300-350. I seem to average about five trigger pulls per second when I am not taking care about where I'm hitting, desperately putting rounds downrange. We certainly don't want to overnerf this weapon, just tweak it. ROF changes seem to hit both dps and turbo controllers. Honestly the best nerf would be to make the overheat occur on a per-shot basis rather than per-second. if you designate that 1/2 the magazine can be fored before needing cooldown in rapid succession (1/3 after a charge shot) it cuts down the blastspam sharply. I have no idea if that is even able to be considered in a hotfix without screwing the laser rifle up badly. What could be an acceptable reduction in ROF?[/quote] I would put it somewhere between 400 and 500. People will scream about on-paper DPS but I doubt that it will significantly alter the performance of the weapon in the hands of people not using modded controls or mainlining ritalin. The Charge shot needs to be the primary alpha or it needs to be removed entirely. Either way, that's my two cents. Have fun.
JDEZ09 Dark Side Alliance 72	Posted - 2014.09.02 17:16:00 - [30] - Quote Rof: 650 Reason: You don't want to overnerf this weapon CCP. It needs to be done in a reasonable manner that allows us ScR vets to still use their skills. The Tac AR was the prime example of what happens when a great gun gets nerfed. Now you want to do this to the most unique light weapon of the game? While were talking scramblers, lets talk damage profiles. The Scrambler has a profie of +20/-20 Its comparable counterpart, the rail rifle, has a profile of -10/+20 And you want to change the ScR? When it is obviously the weakest gun for armor body shots? You have to take into account that most scrambler users are actual amarr assaults, using advanced or proto ScR. Its pretty much because it HAS to in order to have that efficiency. No other gun forces that like the Scrambler Rifle. It is a skill based weapon, but it needs to be brought just a tad lower, not 100s of rpm lower like the Tac AR was (R.I.P.) If you lower the RoF at all, then the profile needs to be adjusted to match the Rail Rifle but for shield based damage. ScR: +20/-10 Also, Laser Rifles need some love, they overheat way too fast now on any suit.

JDEZ09 Dark Side Alliance 72	Posted - 2014.09.02 17:26:00 - [31] - Quote These 400-500 rpm people on here are completely trolling. That is 100s of RPM in diffence!!! There is NO need to take it that extreme when only a few players are using the weapon in the 1st place. If a Scrambler is eating your armor super fast, its probably because the user is stacking damage mods. which means (if amarr) his/her shields are very low and they rely on armor as well. They also might be getting headshots more often, which is what makes the ScR really shine. So if anything, dont nerf the RoF, but maybe the headshot multiplier. Just bring that down a fraction of its current state to give it some reasonable numbers. I can't believe I have to come to these forums to defend my weapon. You qqers are taking this nerfing culture way too far. People have worked very hard to get their guns to be this powerful. The turbo controller exploiters are your enemy in this, not the true vets that love this unique gun.
matsumoto yuichi san The Elite Few Inc. The Methodical Alliance 46	Posted - 2014.09.02 17:31:00 - [32] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: matsumoto yuichi san wrote: I am simply concerned that we aren't comparing apples to apples here, a skill focused weapon whose only remaining users were those on the upper end of the skill bell curve would skew the weapon towards being more efficient than it's counterparts, simply because the sample population isn't comparable. It's possible to take that into account (KDR or WP/s stats partitioned by weapon). I'm fairly certain Rattati has the chops to consider that, given his background. yes i believe he sepatated the stats so he knows by weapon, and that was part of the issue. if the small number of scrambler rifle users at this moment are in fact simply the +1.5 to +2 sigma users for the average rifle, as the <+1.5 sigma users moved to the other rifles because of ease of use, then by definition the performance of the SCR on average is better than the performance of the other rifles because the average player using it is better than the average player using the other rifles. depending on the relationship of players to performance i was trying to deduce if in fact that could account for some of the variance he is seeing, and if so how much so as to get us a better idea of the WEAPONS performance component versus player. It may be nothing but i have a sneaking suspicion that 90% of the SCR users out there are like me and have been using it since it came out through thick and thin, and know it's ins and outs, and have prof V, amarr assault V so the data gets skewed by the player skill / familiarity with weapon / depth of specialization over the average rifle, where a much larger fraction of the users are newer players with less familiarity / skill points
JDEZ09 Dark Side Alliance 72	Posted - 2014.09.02 18:13:00 - [33] - Quote matsumoto yuichi san wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: matsumoto yuichi san wrote: I am simply concerned that we aren't comparing apples to apples here, a skill focused weapon whose only remaining users were those on the upper end of the skill bell curve would skew the weapon towards being more efficient than it's counterparts, simply because the sample population isn't comparable. It's possible to take that into account (KDR or WP/s stats partitioned by weapon). I'm fairly certain Rattati has the chops to consider that, given his background. yes i believe he sepatated the stats so he knows by weapon, and that was part of the issue. if the small number of scrambler rifle users at this moment are in fact simply the +1.5 to +2 sigma users for the average rifle, as the <+1.5 sigma users moved to the other rifles because of ease of use, then by definition the performance of the SCR on average is better than the performance of the other rifles because the average player using it is better than the average player using the other rifles. depending on the relationship of players to performance i was trying to deduce if in fact that could account for some of the variance he is seeing, and if so how much so as to get us a better idea of the WEAPONS performance component versus player. It may be nothing but i have a sneaking suspicion that 90% of the SCR users out there are like me and have been using it since it came out through thick and thin, and know it's ins and outs, and have prof V, amarr assault V so the data gets skewed by the player skill / familiarity with weapon / depth of specialization over the average rifle, where a much larger fraction of the users are newer players with less familiarity / skill points These are excellent points CCP. We have stuck with this gun for so long. It is a skill based weapon. One that weeds out the unskiled players and promotes good marksmanship. If anything, the ScR needs a damage profile adjustment to reflect the Rail Rifle. +20/-10. No RoF nerf, but maybe tone down the headshot multiplier just a tad? Isnt that the real culprit here?
JDEZ09 Dark Side Alliance 72	Posted - 2014.09.02 18:21:00 - [34] - Quote Take a second to listen to this hit single by DSTheDrunkHeavy. "Don't Nerf my Gun,Gun,Gun" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im4Tb_AXQig&feature=youtube_gdata_player Dont nerf my ScR bro! Do this right! Lol Hope you liked the song. Hope it rings in your ears all day.
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1738	Posted - 2014.09.02 18:56:00 - [35] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: In short you entire argument is based upon circumstantial evidence and made up opinions, your vested intrest in the weapon is clearly visible and you prodice no valid reason for the ScR being allowed to perform at it's curent effectiveness. Yeah and each time i bring out the CR and RR coment are better, you completely ignore them and this is from actually using all 3 of them at lvl V, all skills. I have no illusions as to what CCP is gonna do with the weapon, i have both CR, RR and SCR at lvl 5; ill just wipe the smile of peoples faces with both the other weapons at my disposal, but on a more serious not i have not played Dust in like 4-6 months seriously, at best ive hopped into the game on a friday night to run 3-4 games and call it quits. But, yes i do care about the weapon as it has been a fabulous companion and piece of weaponry when everyone was throwing Brick-Tanked Slayerlogi suits at me. though i gotta ask, your replies all sound like you are very very b*tthurt from being shot by it and want nothing more then nerf it to the ground, so witch weapon do you roll with? But like i said multiple times in this thread, witch you also ignore, FIX TURBO CONTROLLER ABUSE first, that will fix most of the issue this gun is facing right now, Scrub + AutoFire + 3x DamMod = InstaGib, if he can hit his target, especially on Militia Suits. Fix that and 50% of the problem goes away overnight. But like i said, i only play when i got an itch to scratch. Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Blacklight (PS4)"
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2483	Posted - 2014.09.02 19:06:00 - [36] - Quote Im not trolling, you are being reactionary.
Kaeru Nayiri Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 25	Posted - 2014.09.02 19:17:00 - [37] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: @Rattati: [...] 3. Oversampling assist. Something else I doubt is hotfix material, but to prevent rampant oversampling on low RoF weapons, would it be possible to 'save' an input so that the weapon fires immediately after the interval anyway? Example: Let's say you have a weapon with a 0.20s fire delay. First, you fire once. Then, after a 0.15s delay, you push the trigger again. Presently, it seems that it will not fire a second shot. Ideally, it should remember the input and fire after the full 0.20s delay. This is brilliant. Exists in many other games as well.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 736	Posted - 2014.09.02 19:21:00 - [38] - Quote 1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote: Add a sticky for ScR discussion. - Thank you for the sticky Rattati o7 I don't have the patience or willpower to create a whole post about it but I can definitely answer any data gathering questions you have and hopefully start a discussion My credentials: - User of the Amarr Assault and ScR since it was introduced in Uprising 1.0 has been my main suit until i had enough SP to max out my cores before eventually getting 4 other suits (Amarr Sentinel, Gal Scout, Min Scout and Cal Scout) at around 55m SP currently (open beta vet) - Uses Amarr Assault in Planetary Conquest constantly, more so than any other person I know who plays the game competitively, if there was one I would know but there are few names and especially fewer at this point in time - I know plenty of dedicated Amarr Assault users who I believe will come to discuss the weapon with you if I ask them to, I'm sure there are plenty who will contribute as well I know the weapon is pretty goddamn good in Public Contracts but there are more factors in play in terms of that fact than the weapon or suit itself, if you balance for pub games it will kill the weapon competitively and this goes for every weapon. I highly suggest you read and consider this heavily and start this discussion. If it is balance you are seeking then lets try to find a middle ground where the weapon can coexist nicely in Pub games yet not become worthless compared to other weapons competitively. Stop the vicious Nerf/Buff cycle and start balancing properly, let us try and help. there isnt really a difference in pub vs pc except more people are proto at PC and the ScR remains the same [[LogiBro in Training]] Level 1 Forum Pariah
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1974	Posted - 2014.09.02 19:43:00 - [39] - Quote Just thinking out loud, but what if the heat increased at a higher rate the faster you shoot it? So, for example, it takes 100 "units" to reach overheat. Staggered shots are about 5-10 each. Very fast panic shooting is like 10-15, and inhuman turbo speed is like 20-25 a shot. Don't take the numbers seriously, but just get the idea. Also, I was wondering about reducing the base damage but increasing the charge multiplier a lot. Just a thought.
Cass Caul 1070	Posted - 2014.09.02 19:47:00 - [40] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Im not trolling, you are being reactionary. This. Or, the best way to balance the ScR is to increase the Tac AR's clip size to 24 I blame her for nova knife kills on tanks

Y-BLOCK BioCyberDevelopment 15	Posted - 2014.09.02 19:50:00 - [41] - Quote Rate of Fire : Decrease to what is humanly possible with DS3 Controller to stop the turbo controller users, or as I have read somewhere on here, this was someone elses idea, set a threshold that would overheat the scramblr if the rate of of fire passes the threshold of what is humanly possible with a DS3 controller. Damage : I am against any damage nerf or buff for this matter because one must invest not only skilling into the scramblr, but also into amaar assault as well to prevent constant over heating, & those of us who use the scramblr as intended should not suffer for an unhonest approach from a few..( turbo controllers) Range : If! & only if you must nerf the damage of the scramblr, then increase its range to match or outmatch the RR! That would seem like a fair tradeoff. These are my only concerns with the Scrambler Rifle.
Alldin Kan Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1211	Posted - 2014.09.02 20:07:00 - [42] - Quote I would just lower the RoF to 530-580, I would also ask for a strong shotgun nerf and a RoF reduction for HMG to 2000. Alldin Kan has joined the battle!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2486	Posted - 2014.09.02 20:17:00 - [43] - Quote Alldin Kan wrote: I would just lower the RoF to 530-580, I would also ask for a strong shotgun nerf and a RoF reduction for HMG to 2000. HMG is fine (Except the burst) Shotgun is not the problem, it's the delivery platform. Watch what happens when a sprout hits you with a proto SMG sometime. it's not fun. Lower the scram Rof to 400-500.
JDEZ09 Dark Side Alliance 73	Posted - 2014.09.02 20:48:00 - [44] - Quote RoF: 600-650 It is a much more reasonable start than the people proposing we nerf it by 100s of rounds per minute. Either do that, or just lower the headshot multiplier a little. Scrambler Rifle Users have respect for the other weapons. While everyone is using combat rifles and rail rifles, someone has to step in and stop the bullying. Nerfing the Scr to 400-500 is absolutely TOO MUCH of a nerf. Dont even consider those numbers.m Again. 600-650 is a much safer start to this CCP. Dont give in to the noobery.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2490	Posted - 2014.09.02 20:57:00 - [45] - Quote explain why it's too much of a nerf. You saying it's too much is an utterly dismissal-worthy reason. calling people noobs and scrubs is not evidence that it's too much of a nerf. Provide math or shut up.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2490	Posted - 2014.09.02 21:04:00 - [46] - Quote Funny, I just did a one-minute drill spamming the trigger of a mouse (easier than a controller) at the rate I pull the trigger in DUST while aiming. 292 clicks, approximately 5 clicks/shots per second. HOW is dropping the scram below 500 "Too much of a nerf?" Unless you're gonna lose your autofire advantage. In which case... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 198	Posted - 2014.09.02 21:10:00 - [47] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Funny, I just did a one-minute drill spamming the trigger of a mouse (easier than a controller) at the rate I pull the trigger in DUST while aiming. 292 clicks, approximately 5 clicks/shots per second. HOW is dropping the scram below 500 "Too much of a nerf?" Unless you're gonna lose your autofire advantage. In which case... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Did the same. 489 shots/clicks/whatever. That's how many times I can click a mouse in a minute, I know I can do it faster on a DS3, probably 520-540 if I'm not aiming and just laying into it. I easily exceed 375 RpM just casually shooting. When I REALLY get into it, I'm sure I get over 400-450. Just because you can't do it...
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP 889	Posted - 2014.09.02 21:32:00 - [48] - Quote Why is everyone already stuck on a ROF nerf. We have already seen that go terribly wrong with the ScP. Can we look at where the real problem exists for the ScR? CQC combat and even more so CQC with a turbo controller are the real problem points for the ScR. For now, lets forget about the turbo controllers for a few minutes because they are a small percentage of the population and should not be used to set the standard and screw us people that do not waste the time or money on cheap ass tactics. The ScR is meant to be a mid range weapon that can only be fired in controlled bursts forcing the user to focus on accuracy. Instead the highest factor players are the ones running around in CQC hipfire spamming and knocking down everything in their path. This happens because the weapon, like others, is not getting a proper penalty for hipfire or for operating well inside of its optimal range. Adding to the dispersion of hipfire while also reducing damage in either aiming mode when at less than X meters makes the weapon less viable for spamming away uncontrollably and turns it back into the precision weapon it is suppose to be. Back to turbo controllers, the biggest issue is the fact that they are able to fire more shots per overheat than a regular person. Lowering the ROF only gives them MORE of an advantage as they can set their controller to fire perfectly on every interval to take advantage of the full ROF while a normal human can not time the shots that perfectly and will have even less ability to compete in this aspect. Proof of this can be seen if you look at the ScP. The delay between each shot can not be timed perfectly leaving a person either pulling the trigger 3 times to fire 2 shots or waiting longer between shots to make sure it fires while programmed controllers can be gradually sped up until it fires one shot every single time it is able to giving them even more of advantage. Higher dispersion when hip firing OR more kick when hipfiring as well as decreased damage when up close is a severe nerf to turbo controllers by causing them to lose their extra shot advantage and making them more likely to overheat or be killed before they kill their enemy. When aiming down the sights at longer range a half charge shot that lands does more damage than 5-6 shots of which 3-4 landed making accuracy king over high volume so that they have no advantage. TL;DR Turbo controllers and even people that are just fast on the trigger gain a massive advantage well inside of the optimal range of the ScR where it should have been penalized more from the start. Nerfing the RoF with the current hipfire dispersion and up close damage application only gives those people more of advantage by hurting the people that are now attempting to not only be accurate but also time trigger pulls to avoid any non fires.
JDEZ09 Dark Side Alliance 76	Posted - 2014.09.02 21:58:00 - [49] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Funny, I just did a one-minute drill spamming the trigger of a mouse (easier than a controller) at the rate I pull the trigger in DUST while aiming. 292 clicks, approximately 5 clicks/shots per second. HOW is dropping the scram below 500 "Too much of a nerf?" Unless you're gonna lose your autofire advantage. In which case... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Did the same. 489 shots/clicks/whatever. That's how many times I can click a mouse in a minute, I know I can do it faster on a DS3, probably 520-540. I easily exceed 375 RpM just casually shooting. When I REALLY get into it, I'm sure I get over 500. Just because you can't do it... Thank you brother, this is a decent example of a skilled user going past the average threshold. This doesnt mean that CCP should then limit us to this number though. No autofire over here buddy. Heres what you are proposing by saying 400-500 rpm. 400 Rof is a 43.34% Rof nerf from the current 705.88 rpm. 500 Rof is a 29.14% Rof nerf from the current 705.88 rpm. Just because Im trying to prevent CCP from over nerfing something doesnt mean that were all cheating and using turbo contollers. Where are your manners man? You wanted numbers, well okay fine buddy boy. here are some numbers. A level 1 scrambler rifle if Rof was 400 rpm. 519.66 Shield DPS 346.67 Armor DPS And youre over here doing minute long tests to see how many presses you can get XD like as if you can even do that with a scrambler. It seizes up after 15-24 shots depending on the level. So for every 2.5 seconds of constant fire, you have to WAIT about 2 seconds before firing another reasonable barrage again. So guess what? Unless you have a sidearm, the SCR available shots per minute gets cut in half from even that. how about your proposed 500 RoF? Level 1 ScR 650 shield DPS 433.66 armor DPS Again, only available for a short time before seizing or having to wait just as long. again, cutting the damage output in half. This is IF and only If you dont overheat the scrambler. So what do we learn here? The scrambler is supposed to be a high DPS weapon, but with a required cooldown between barrages. Lets not forget that almost all other light weapons DO NOT have this limitation. They recieve a consistent Damage per second, limited by the clip size. So doing this proposed mega nerf will only stunt our new ScR brethren from really getting into the gun. We do not want that to happen. With the amount of heavies and armor stacking mercs out there, I dont think you need to be worrying about the scrambler.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP 891	Posted - 2014.09.02 22:00:00 - [50] - Quote Fools still arguing over ROF when all that does is makes a turbo controller even better. **** IT I am ordering me one so I can get any skill weapon nerfed in the dumbest way possible.

ratamaq doc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 812	Posted - 2014.09.02 22:14:00 - [51] - Quote Here is a video covering quite a bit of what is being talked about here. It turned into a TAC vs SCR video showing the difference in the two. Disclaimer: I am an SCR user. Have been since it released. I'm also a simi auto rifle user in other FPS games. It's my preferred play style there. The only reason I am not an Amarr proto is because I didn't want to get used to the extra rounds. Using the rifle and not overheating is as much about feeling as it is counting. Things covered in this comentary video: -Stats, Cost, and Skill of the TAC vs the SCR. -TAC in action showing it shining in Optimal and falling on it's ass in <30 meters (Some slowmo comparison) -SCR in action showing it shining in all ranges (Also with slow motion comparison) -Outside of game video showing both riflers firing at a near consistent 480 rounds per min using a metronome set at 120bpm with 16th note subdivisions -Slow motion of the TAC misfiring while well under 500 RPM (Bug?) and what I fear would happen if the ROF gets lowered to much on the SCR -EXTREME dispersion difference in both hip fire and ADS between the two (side by side using a commando firing at a wall) -A bad ass drummer in the background. (seriously, this dude is remarkable) I'm going to post this in GD as well, but this seems to be the place for both us SCR lovers and the haters. And for all those claiming that more than 6 trigger pulls per second controlled is not possible, wtf is wrong with you? Eat some Wheaties or something. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuOXdZfHeN8&feature=youtu.be YouTube
JDEZ09 Dark Side Alliance 76	Posted - 2014.09.02 22:23:00 - [52] - Quote ratamaq doc wrote: Here is a video covering quite a bit of what is being talked about here. It turned into a TAC vs SCR video showing the difference in the two. Disclaimer: I am an SCR user. Have been since it released. I'm also a simi auto rifle user in other FPS games. It's my preferred play style there. The only reason I am not an Amarr proto is because I didn't want to get used to the extra rounds. Using the rifle and not overheating is as much about feeling as it is counting. Things covered in this comentary video: -Stats, Cost, and Skill of the TAC vs the SCR. -TAC in action showing it shining in Optimal and falling on it's ass in <30 meters (Some slowmo comparison) -SCR in action showing it shining in all ranges (Also with slow motion comparison) -Outside of game video showing both riflers firing at a near consistent 480 rounds per min using a metronome set at 120bpm with 16th note subdivisions -Slow motion of the TAC misfiring while well under 500 RPM (Bug?) and what I fear would happen if the ROF gets lowered to much on the SCR -EXTREME dispersion difference in both hip fire and ADS between the two (side by side using a commando firing at a wall) -A bad ass drummer in the background. (seriously, this dude is remarkable) I'm going to post this in GD as well, but this seems to be the place for both us SCR lovers and the haters. And for all those claiming that more than 6 trigger pulls per second controlled is not possible, wtf is wrong with you? Eat some Wheaties or something. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuOXdZfHeN8&feature=youtu.be I remember your RoF video that you posted. A great example of human skill, and what happens when you eat your wheaties XD
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3424	Posted - 2014.09.02 22:24:00 - [53] - Quote Rei Shepard wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: In short you entire argument is based upon circumstantial evidence and made up opinions, your vested intrest in the weapon is clearly visible and you prodice no valid reason for the ScR being allowed to perform at it's curent effectiveness. Yeah and each time i bring out the CR and RR coment are better, you completely ignore them and this is from actually using all 3 of them at lvl V, all skills. I don't need to, if you like me to give you my opinion, the CR has a net gain profile and the RR has the longest range of any rifle, they are going to be very proficient, but considering the CR and RR are not considered to be over performing, it's nothing more than opinion. I have no illusions as to what CCP is gonna do with the weapon, i have both CR, RR and SCR at lvl 5; ill just wipe the smile of peoples faces with both the other weapons at my disposal, but on a more serious not i have not played Dust in like 4-6 months seriously, at best ive hopped into the game on a friday night to run 3-4 games and call it quits. What's your problem then? Why didn't you use them in the first place? But, yes i do care about the weapon as it has been a fabulous companion and piece of weaponry when everyone was throwing Brick-Tanked Slayerlogi suits at me. Those days are gone, it's time for it to be tonned down. though i gotta ask, your replies all sound like you are very very btthurt from being shot by it and want nothing more then nerf it to the ground, so witch weapon do you roll with? The better question would which don't I run with, to which the answer is the Forge Gun. No butthurt, just showing the math, you can see it a mile off, it sticks out like a aore thumb.* But like i said multiple times in this thread, witch you also ignore, FIX TURBO CONTROLLER ABUSE first, that will fix most of the issue this gun is facing right now, Scrub + AutoFire + 3x DamMod = InstaGib, if he can hit his target, especially on Militia Suits. Fix that and 50% of the problem goes away overnight. Which Rattati has already explained requires a patch, currently out of the question, so the only, other option is the ROF, which brings into question exactly what DPS it should be achieving. But like i said, i only play when i got an itch to scratch, next time ill play regularly again will be on Legion. Well I'll see you there then ;) They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Cruor Abominare Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 155	Posted - 2014.09.02 22:49:00 - [54] - Quote As an actual turbo user on a mouse and keyboard, this nonsense makes me wonder what exactly is going on in peoples heads. You know how you solve this? You stop using the same mechanic for laser rifle overheat on the SCR. (and have a stern talking to that dev who did that lazy bit of coding) Seriously per shot heat not heat over time. Why is this so hard? Stops turbo abuse sets an equal top benchmark that the weapon can achieve, fixes sloppy dev code and creates an alternative for future applications.
Arcturis Vanguard Murphys-Law 274	Posted - 2014.09.02 23:05:00 - [55] - Quote Rei Shepard wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Stickied and edited Thanks for the input. The fact of the matter is that the weapon's efficiency is considerably higher than the rest of the rifle population. Those rifles are also measured against Public matches so doesn't create a comparison bias. Turbo controllers, can be used for more than just the Scrambler, so the numbers should not be biased due to that It is a skill weapon, for sure, which explains why it is less used than the other rifles. I also believe, that even with a majority of the playerbase Armor tanking, it is going to be even more efficient through the shield module improvements we are proposing, after swaying more players over to Shield Tanking. We certainly don't want to overnerf this weapon, just tweak it. ROF changes seem to hit both dps and turbo controllers. What could be an acceptable reduction in ROF? -The higher efficiency you talk about, does that take into the account that the weapon can overheat, because quite frankly if say an assault rifle deals 450 damage per second while it has a clip that can maintain this damage for 6 seconds and a SCR would deal 450 damage per second but can do this for 2 seconds, then what is its overheat purpose ? kick yourself to the floor while yer assaulting someone? -the rof change will just severly hit None-turbo users as we now might have overlap in shots, turbo controller users are not gonna be affected as they do not need to think much when firing and just get the max dps at all times, where fingers are quite allot less perfect and can mess up. I would propose to Fix the Turbo controller issue first, then see if any of the rifles, you say that more are used with Turbo, then why not FIX that first, level the playing field and then balance the weapons ? It seems a bit counter productive to fix and lower rof on weapons based on turbo controller use, wouldnt it be easier to fox turbo abuse and then see how all the weapons work ? You are never going to balance the weapons when 1 person gets shot with turbo and the other not, but balance it as if it wasn't used with turbo, afterwards, the turbo guy will still have the same advantage as before. This. This right here. This is so completely logically. It's would be be, pardon my saying but, completely ass backwards to do it any other way and a complete waste of company resources to not do it right the first time. Everyone is in agreement that modded controllers are the problem. Solve the problem first before balancing. Ps- if I could give you a million likes two, I would!! Amarr Heavy V Amarr Assault V Caldari Scout V Caldari logistic IV Prof V HMG & FORGE Prof IV CR, SMG Prof III ScR
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 1369	Posted - 2014.09.02 23:07:00 - [56] - Quote Of course a Nerf is coming for Scrambler Rifle. It has been my default weapon since my other light weapons (AR) were Nerf Hammered into non-existence. This constant Nerf Hammer of Doom being applied to everything in a random sequence is why I find fewer reasons to care. The Rail Rifle came in and melted my heavies so fast I quit running them. Same old, same old. And no chance to rebalance SP. Because CCP. To everything there is a season yet in Dust there is little reason.
CommanderBolt Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 1459	Posted - 2014.09.02 23:08:00 - [57] - Quote Rei Shepard wrote: Fix the turbo controller issue first, then see where the weapons are at, i bet there won"t be allot of scramblers left. To be fair, when I bust out my Templar gear, I find most of the time (but not always) I am the only one the map using a LR or SCR. They are really not that popular weapon systems in DUST at all. I do have skills to use proto weapons n have the holy suit to level 5 btw. It seems to be Heavies with HMGs, RR`s and CR`s, some AR`s, some scattering of sidearms, the odd plasma cannon n forge gun, very few LR`s and SCR`s, barely anyone using mass driver and the same for flaylock. -=#[ Gastun's Forge ]#=- MY LIFE FOR AIUR! "I'm wasting away here" - "Get me back into zee fight!
Arcturis Vanguard Murphys-Law 274	Posted - 2014.09.02 23:54:00 - [58] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: 1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote: Add a sticky for ScR discussion. - Thank you for the sticky Rattati o7 I don't have the patience or willpower to create a whole post about it but I can definitely answer any data gathering questions you have and hopefully start a discussion My credentials: - User of the Amarr Assault and ScR since it was introduced in Uprising 1.0 has been my main suit until i had enough SP to max out my cores before eventually getting 4 other suits (Amarr Sentinel, Gal Scout, Min Scout and Cal Scout) at around 55m SP currently (open beta vet) - Uses Amarr Assault in Planetary Conquest constantly, more so than any other person I know who plays the game competitively, if there was one I would know but there are few names and especially fewer at this point in time - I know plenty of dedicated Amarr Assault users who I believe will come to discuss the weapon with you if I ask them to, I'm sure there are plenty who will contribute as well I know the weapon is pretty goddamn good in Public Contracts but there are more factors in play in terms of that fact than the weapon or suit itself, if you balance for pub games it will kill the weapon competitively and this goes for every weapon. I highly suggest you read and consider this heavily and start this discussion. If it is balance you are seeking then lets try to find a middle ground where the weapon can coexist nicely in Pub games yet not become worthless compared to other weapons competitively. Stop the vicious Nerf/Buff cycle and start balancing properly, let us try and help. there isnt really a difference in pub vs pc except more people are proto at PC and the ScR remains the same PC and pubs ARE two completely different beasts. Yes you are correct in stating that more people are in proto. In fact EVERYONE on the field is in proto. What you are largely mistaken about is the pace and quality of play is far superior over pubs. Amarr Heavy V Amarr Assault V Caldari Scout V Caldari logistic IV Prof V HMG & FORGE Prof IV CR, SMG Prof III ScR
JDEZ09 Dark Side Alliance 77	Posted - 2014.09.03 00:41:00 - [59] - Quote CommanderBolt wrote: Rei Shepard wrote: Fix the turbo controller issue first, then see where the weapons are at, i bet there won"t be allot of scramblers left. To be fair, when I bust out my Templar gear, I find most of the time (but not always) I am the only one the map using a LR or SCR. They are really not that popular weapon systems in DUST at all. I do have skills to use proto weapons n have the holy suit to level 5 btw. It seems to be Heavies with HMGs, RR`s and CR`s, some AR`s, some scattering of sidearms, the odd plasma cannon n forge gun, very few LR`s and SCR`s, barely anyone using mass driver and the same for flaylock. Antaro Adun Execcutor! Lolz Anyone that quotes a SC Zealot deserves a +1 for sure. I LONG FOR COMBAT!
matsumoto yuichi san The Elite Few Inc. The Methodical Alliance 49	Posted - 2014.09.03 00:55:00 - [60] - Quote templar gear best gear btw :P

Zindorak 1.U.P 793	Posted - 2014.09.03 01:20:00 - [61] - Quote Thanks to Tibs for the thread you are our go to on Am assault. CCP can you make it so that turbo controllers blow up when people attempt to use them jk but implement a turbo detection system please. But if you insist of new rof cap 600 RPM Pokemon master! CCP undo ScP nerf. It hurt my feering very bad
Crashy Mc Boom-bewm The United Socialist Liberation Front 55	Posted - 2014.09.03 01:52:00 - [62] - Quote Been a Scr rifle user since i first started and i can say the weapon is good, but its not the best. The only issue i see is the heat over time, if we change the heat over time to heat per bullet ( maybe dumb down the ROF a bit too) i feel that it would severly hurt turbo controller users and still make the weapon viable. If at first it doesn't work, beat it with a brick.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2237	Posted - 2014.09.03 01:56:00 - [63] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Stickied and edited Thanks for the input. The fact of the matter is that the weapon's efficiency is considerably higher than the rest of the rifle population. Those rifles are also measured against Public matches so doesn't create a comparison bias. Turbo controllers, can be used for more than just the Scrambler, so the numbers should not be biased due to that It is a skill weapon, for sure, which explains why it is less used than the other rifles. I also believe, that even with a majority of the playerbase Armor tanking, it is going to be even more efficient through the shield module improvements we are proposing, after swaying more players over to Shield Tanking. We certainly don't want to overnerf this weapon, just tweak it. ROF changes seem to hit both dps and turbo controllers. What could be an acceptable reduction in ROF? 520 RoF, TAR hipfire. Done "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Cruor Abominare Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 157	Posted - 2014.09.03 03:33:00 - [64] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Stickied and edited Thanks for the input. The fact of the matter is that the weapon's efficiency is considerably higher than the rest of the rifle population. Those rifles are also measured against Public matches so doesn't create a comparison bias. Turbo controllers, can be used for more than just the Scrambler, so the numbers should not be biased due to that It is a skill weapon, for sure, which explains why it is less used than the other rifles. I also believe, that even with a majority of the playerbase Armor tanking, it is going to be even more efficient through the shield module improvements we are proposing, after swaying more players over to Shield Tanking. We certainly don't want to overnerf this weapon, just tweak it. ROF changes seem to hit both dps and turbo controllers. What could be an acceptable reduction in ROF? 520 RoF, TAR hipfire. Done Whelp just as useless as a tar now!
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 471	Posted - 2014.09.03 03:42:00 - [65] - Quote Does the OP admit that he uses turbo controller? I've seen him in match releasing a swarm of light from his scrambler rifle. The fastest fingers can manage 12-14 rounds before it overheats. Much more than that coming outta his rifle. The turbo controller guys melt targets instantly with this exploit. It makes me wonder how OP the gun really is. Has most of the ownage been handed out by turbo hacks? Have they been skewing the stats that Ratatti sees? One change that is a MUST for Delta is changing the heat build up to increase per push of R1. If you can't do it in just a hotfix well please CCP man up and fix your game because this is a killer exploit and if you just throw up your hands and say "darn we can't do it in a hotfix oh well carry on" then DUST is dead. Many players will despair, a ton of people will get turbo controllers because they'd rather join em than beat em at that point, and it will be the clear beginning of the end for DUST. We've got a good thing going here even with just hotfixes but CCP has to fix this scrambler rifle turbo exploit.
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 471	Posted - 2014.09.03 04:02:00 - [66] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Turbo controllers, can be used for more than just the Scrambler, so the numbers should not be biased due to that What other weapons are you talking about? The Combat Rifle? No, it has set gaps between bursts. The scrambler pistol? Maybe but if it were a problem people would be talking about it. Breach assault rifle? Nope. I can't think of one weapon besides the scrambler rifle that would benefit from a turbo controller, except maybe to burst the assault rifle, assault combat rifle, SMG and so on for accuracy. The turbo controller, due to the heat build up over time instead of per button hit, enables users to not only fire the scrambler rifle faster than humanly possible, but enables them to fire many MANY more shots before overheat than those not using a turbo. Guys like the OP have been going around using them since Uprising and skewing the scrambler rifle's overall performance for over a year. How drastically they've skewed it depends on how many of them they are. You're awesome and I really appreciate what you're doing, but to dismiss turbo controllers as not being an important factor in the scrambler rifle outperforming other rifles is not only wrong but it's very dangerous, as I explained above. The heat build up MUST be changed to per button hit. Depending on how rampant the turbo controller use has been, that may actually solve the problem right there.
1st Lieutenant Tiberius 0uter.Heaven 2217	Posted - 2014.09.03 05:33:00 - [67] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: Does the OP admit that he uses turbo controller? I've seen him in match releasing a swarm of light from his scrambler rifle. The fastest fingers can manage 12-14 rounds before it overheats.. No, I have never and will never spend money one something as silly as a modded controller, everything I am able to do is from literally a year and more of using the Scrambler Rifle, remember; Practice makes perfect. That swarm of light you see is what I call a well placed volley. I am advocating to provide a fix for the ScR that would make it impossible for Turbo controller users to use, as well as balancing it with the other weapons for both Pubs AND Planetary Conquest, and making sure that we don't implement sweeping changes that would detrimentally alter the weapon's mechanics that I, and a good few others, have spent a year and more to master. The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
1st Lieutenant Tiberius 0uter.Heaven 2217	Posted - 2014.09.03 05:50:00 - [68] - Quote Come to think of it, I would hate to use a modded controller; not being able to charge my shots would suck, a lot. In Pubs spamming your shots will get you tons of kills, militia and STD suits dont stand a chance. In PC those 4 or 5 hip fired shots, depending on the proficiency of your aiming, can mean life or death when facing a shotty scout or HMG heavy before you engage in an often futile SMG strafe battle. This is the distinction that most players unfortunately lack, for CCP has turned PC into such an exclusive "club" that so few of the community is able to participate. I'm starting to think that we need to look at the bigger picture more, as opposed to scrutinizing and painstakingly deconstructing every single weapon in hopes to achieve balance. It's not too late to prevent the cycle of nerf/buffs from happening, lets try and create an environment where every weapon can be viable and leave it up to the preference of the player to decide which weapon they want to identify with. There used to be such a cult following of people who would run the ScR rain or shine, but the nerf/buff cycle eventually hits every single weapon. Now everyone has one and now everyone is complaining. The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 476	Posted - 2014.09.03 06:03:00 - [69] - Quote 1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote: Come to think of it, I would hate to use a modded controller; not being able to charge my shots would suck, a lot. In Pubs spamming your shots will get you tons of kills, militia and STD suits dont stand a chance. In PC those 4 or 5 hip fired shots, depending on the proficiency of your aiming, can mean life or death when facing a shotty scout or HMG heavy before you engage in an often futile SMG strafe battle. This is the distinction that most players unfortunately lack, for CCP has turned PC into such an exclusive "club" that so few of the community is able to participate. I'm starting to think that we need to look at the bigger picture more, as opposed to scrutinizing and painstakingly deconstructing every single weapon in hopes to achieve balance. It's not too late to prevent the cycle of nerf/buffs from happening, lets try and create an environment where every weapon can be viable and leave it up to the preference of the player to decide which weapon they want to identify with. There used to be such a cult following of people who would run the ScR rain or shine, but the nerf/buff cycle eventually hits every single weapon. Now everyone has one and now everyone is complaining. We should always try see the big picture, I agree. I think balancing shields/armor through modules and damage profiles is a big picture priority, as is removing exploits like turbo controllers. The more progress is made on these things, the less balance needs to be achieved through altering the guns themselves. I agree that if the ScR's ROF is capped it will no longer be the ScR. It can be tuned down by adjusting heat build up and cooldown, and of course tieing heat to each button push. A variant with capped ROF would be great though. What are you thinking when you say "big picture"?
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 476	Posted - 2014.09.03 06:15:00 - [70] - Quote And yes it's sad that CCP has not revamped PC to make it more accessible. The only other game mode where you can sometimes have a whole team of your corpies working together is FW, but if you do you just roll over the other team and it's boring as hell. All we need is corp battles! Queue up 16 people and wait until 16 other people are queued up and go after em! Doesn't matter who they are. Winner gets the spoils, loser gets nothing. If you back out you lose money equal to winnings (even if you DC). Voila! We'd have something challenging for whole teams to do! But I digress...

1st Lieutenant Tiberius 0uter.Heaven 2218	Posted - 2014.09.03 06:20:00 - [71] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: What are you thinking when you say "big picture"? That is a tough question to answer tbh, I'm not a game dev I am simply a player. But perhaps the "big picture" is understanding that the problems we have here in Dust514 are ones that are caused by a multitude of variables, ones that are closely dependent and affect each other at exponential levels; we've seen how changing (i.e nerfing or buffing) one thing causes a chain reaction of events pushing a different thing up the food chain, thus the nerf/buff vicious cycle that I so affectionately refer to all the time. Maybe we shouldn't focus on deconstructing aspects of the specific item and instead try to identify where the problem areas, that this item affects, lie. For instance, with the ScR, I still believe that it outperforms in Pubs at a level that is not at all comparable to how it performs in PC (and I will continue to try and elaborate on these differences because as a player who plays more PCs than Pubs I believe I have a valid opinion) and this may be attributed to factors regarding the weapon as well as factors that are not at all related to the weapon itself. I.E Matchmaking; the games I experience where I go over 30 or 40 kills with low deaths are games where scotty decides to place 3 competent players and 13 other blueberries or random "bots" crouching up and down and its a literal shooting gallery, other time's my organized squad is pitted against another organized squad and we actually have a good pub game (which is rare cause most of the time scotty places 2 good squads on one side and 16 newbros on the other) and during those games I dont usually revolve around 20 kills depending on how focused I am. its all a matter of circumstance. In the end I do not know the absolute answer, I can only provide my opinion that I have generated through experience The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2507	Posted - 2014.09.03 06:21:00 - [72] - Quote the other consideration is the scrambler rifle is an alpha weapon, not a DPS weapon. Usually higher damage means slower rate of fire

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6524	Posted - 2014.09.03 08:57:00 - [73] - Quote Watching the TAR vs Scrambler video and poring over the rifle data, we propose these small tweaks. In most cases, the Gallente rifle family just has overall the worst comparative kick and dispersion so we want to bring them closer to the rest of the rifles. Bear in mind that these are very small tweaks except for the Gallente ones that are heavily underperforming Reduced Hipfire dispersion of Tactical Assault Rifle (TAR) to be closer to the Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Reduced Kick of TAR to be closer to Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Increased Hipfire of Scrambler Rifle to be closer to TAR (tiny) Reduce hipfire kick of Gallente Assault rifle (tiny) Reduce hipfire kick of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles (tiny) Reduce zoomed dispersion of Gallente Breach Rifles (considerable) Set ROF of both Scrambler and TAR to 600 Increase hipfire kick of Rail Rifles on second or more rapid consecutive shot, so full auto will be less accurate in CQC (some) There are no tweaks for the Assault Scrambler as it may be suffering from Armor tanking environment, unless there is a specific reason you can find, there is nothing in the stats that says it should be. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 2988	Posted - 2014.09.03 10:12:00 - [74] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Watching the TAR vs Scrambler video and poring over the rifle data, we propose these small tweaks. In most cases, the Gallente rifle family just has overall the worst comparative kick and dispersion so we want to bring them closer to the rest of the rifles. Bear in mind that these are very small tweaks except for the Gallente ones that are heavily underperforming Reduce Hipfire dispersion of Tactical Assault Rifle (TAR) to be closer to the Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Reduce Hipfire Kick of TAR to be closer to Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Increase Hipfire Kick of Scrambler Rifle to be closer to TAR (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Assault rifle (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles (tiny) Reduce Zoomed Dispersion of Gallente Breach Rifles (considerable) Set ROF of both Scrambler and TAR to 600 Increase Hipfire Kick of Rail Rifles on second or more rapid consecutive shot, so full auto will be less accurate in CQC (some) There are no tweaks for the Assault Scrambler as it may be suffering from Armor tanking environment, unless there is a specific reason you can find, there is nothing in the stats that says it should be. On the last part we can fix that slightly and encourage more pure tanks by changing the proficiency skill bonus to 1% damage per level. By making it so shield weapons can't shred through shields and then hit a brick wall. It also slightly increases the TTK by a very small amount. Changing the bonus to 1.5% per level has the same effect as above without changing TTK at all only shift some DPS from shields to armor. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/tx-YHH60NaGX7lRiPa731fA/htmlview#gid=0 supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
taxi bastard Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 243	Posted - 2014.09.03 10:31:00 - [75] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Please go to http://www.beatsperminuteonline.com/ and see how fast you can press a key on a keyboard repeatedly. Now do the same thing, but try and press it only TWICE and see what kinds of crazy numbers you can get for the small delay between two button presses that is NOT just an average over time. I get about 650-750 EASILY, but then again I have a Fast Trigger Finger (video of in-game firing) My AVERAGE in that video is around 600. I was able to push that average up to 650 toward the end of the video, but again this is an AVERAGE. Reducing to 600/650 would be fine. The problem is...for people like me, if I occasionally press the button too fast, my shot will not register because I am technically firing faster than 650 for that fraction of a second. Credibility: Amarr Assault 4 Scrambler Prof 5 Using Scrambler Rifle since the first week after Uprising (it was delayed remember?) to put the Caldari Logistics suits in their place. 370 was my best......averaging about 320 simply put your getting about 90%-100% more DPS than me personally i beleive that directly linking heat built up to numbers of shots fired is part of the solution. your reward is lower TTK for being faster as opposed to currently your getting double the DPS and double the shots fired.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3425	Posted - 2014.09.03 10:37:00 - [76] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Watching the TAR vs Scrambler video and poring over the rifle data, we propose these small tweaks. In most cases, the Gallente rifle family just has overall the worst comparative kick and dispersion so we want to bring them closer to the rest of the rifles. Bear in mind that these are very small tweaks except for the Gallente ones that are heavily underperforming Reduce Hipfire dispersion of Tactical Assault Rifle (TAR) to be closer to the Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Reduce Hipfire Kick of TAR to be closer to Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Increase Hipfire Kick of Scrambler Rifle to be closer to TAR (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Assault rifle (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles (tiny) Reduce Zoomed Dispersion of Gallente Breach Rifles (considerable) Set ROF of both Scrambler and TAR to 600 Increase Hipfire Kick of Rail Rifles on second or more rapid consecutive shot, so full auto will be less accurate in CQC (some) There are no tweaks for the Assault Scrambler as it may be suffering from Armor tanking environment, unless there is a specific reason you can find, there is nothing in the stats that says it should be. Sounds absolutely fine to me. Do you have the percentages for those increases/decreases? When you say tiny increases I'm hoping for 15% or so. Also would this be a good time to start discussing the other rifles operation skils which are all currently -25% Kick. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Ryme Intrinseca Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1714	Posted - 2014.09.03 10:45:00 - [77] - Quote These are the facts: - ScR has highest DPS of all rifles (841 at proto) even if you disregard the charge shot. This is 234 higher than its nearest equivalent (Tac AR). - ScR has even higher burst DPS using a charge shot plus follow ups. Obviously the Tac AR lacks any such ability. - ScR has very long range (96m). Again, this is higher than the other semi-auto, the Tac AR. - ScR has virtually zero kick. Again, kick is significant on Tac AR, even with AR Operation 5. There is no in-game stat for this, but the difference is obvious (just fire them into a wall and watch the climb or lack thereof). - ScR has accuracy rating of 58.2. Again, Tac AR has far lower accuracy of a 47.80. The ScR goes where you want, the Tac AR does not. - ScR has a large magazine (45 rounds). Again, Tac AR's has less than half the magazine size (18). - ScR is a low SP weapon. There is no equivalent to the AR sharpshooter skill for the ScR, so a max SP ScR takes 900,000SP less than equivalent weapons. The ScR effectively gets sharpshooter for free as it has far lower dispersion than Tac AR to start with. The only real drawback of the ScR is the overheat mechanic. Before overheat you still get around the same number of shots (18) as a Tac AR has in its clip, so it's not really limiting in that respect. Nevertheless, there are consequences here that a Tac AR user doesn't face. The overheat animation takes 2 seconds longer than an AR reload, there's a small amount of damage (maybe 50HP?) inflicted on the user, and it's forced so you can't switch to sidearm or run. Overall, though, I don't see how this one drawback, which only happens when the ScR user uses their weapon incorrectly, can possibly compensate for the six or seven major advantages the weapon has. I would say that, if the ScR was exactly the same as the Tac AR, but with a charge shot and overheat, that would seem like quite a balanced weapon - relative to Tac AR, it could deliver amazing burst damage, OHKing with a headshot in many cases, but at the cost of overheating if the weapon was spammed too much. THAT would seem like the kind of weapon that would genuinely reward skilled users. What I don't see, though, is why ScR users need those interesting, high skill mechanics AND a massive DPS, range, kick, and accuracy advantage over the other semi-auto weapon. Anyone can dominate with a weapon that outclasses the direct equivalent so overwhelmingly in almost every area, there is no skill to that. What to do about this? Well ScR and Tac AR need to be brought much more in line with each other, not just in terms of DPS, but also in terms of the overall package (taking into account range, kick, and accuracy). Since according to Rattati the ScR currently outperforms the pack and the Tac AR currently underperforms the pack, and there is a concern over turbo users, I would suggest some or (preferably all) of the following: Reduce ScR RoF, probably to around 500 Increase Tac AR damage per shot Increase Tac AR accuracy rating Decrease Tac AR kick Finally, ScR users, I know you want to keep that RoF, but look at the current ScR vs Tac AR stats. Such a glaring imbalance needs to be addressed. Maybe you think 'buff the Tac AR to ScR RoF levels' is the solution, but the Tac AR had a high RoF in chromosome, it dominated all other weapons and encouraged widespread turbo abuse. As Rattati says, it is not possible to lock out turbos with a hotfix. So ScR DPS has to go down one way or the other, if you don't want RoF to change then it will have to be the other value in the equation, damage. Unless you use a turbo controller a damage reduction will hurt you a lot more. PS - I don't use Tac AR btw, it's just nowhere near viable at the moment. But it is the only other semi-auto and therefore the starting point for ScR balance. Leave no rifle behind TL;DR - ScR vs Tac AR is imbalanced along many dimensions, address by reducing ScR RoF and buffing Tac AR.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2511	Posted - 2014.09.03 11:03:00 - [78] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Watching the TAR vs Scrambler video and poring over the rifle data, we propose these small tweaks. In most cases, the Gallente rifle family just has overall the worst comparative kick and dispersion so we want to bring them closer to the rest of the rifles. Bear in mind that these are very small tweaks except for the Gallente ones that are heavily underperforming Reduce Hipfire dispersion of Tactical Assault Rifle (TAR) to be closer to the Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Reduce Hipfire Kick of TAR to be closer to Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Increase Hipfire Kick of Scrambler Rifle to be closer to TAR (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Assault rifle (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles (tiny) Reduce Zoomed Dispersion of Gallente Breach Rifles (considerable) Set ROF of both Scrambler and TAR to 600 Increase Hipfire Kick of Rail Rifles on second or more rapid consecutive shot, so full auto will be less accurate in CQC (some) There are no tweaks for the Assault Scrambler as it may be suffering from Armor tanking environment, unless there is a specific reason you can find, there is nothing in the stats that says it should be. How does this help the performance of the standard gallente assault rifle besides a little hipfire kick? That's not going to make the primary variant stop underperforming.
ratamaq doc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 824	Posted - 2014.09.03 11:05:00 - [79] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Watching the TAR vs Scrambler video and poring over the rifle data, we propose these small tweaks. In most cases, the Gallente rifle family just has overall the worst comparative kick and dispersion so we want to bring them closer to the rest of the rifles. Bear in mind that these are very small tweaks except for the Gallente ones that are heavily underperforming Reduce Hipfire dispersion of Tactical Assault Rifle (TAR) to be closer to the Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Reduce Hipfire Kick of TAR to be closer to Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Increase Hipfire Kick of Scrambler Rifle to be closer to TAR (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Assault rifle (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles (tiny) Reduce Zoomed Dispersion of Gallente Breach Rifles (considerable) Set ROF of both Scrambler and TAR to 600 Increase Hipfire Kick of Rail Rifles on second or more rapid consecutive shot, so full auto will be less accurate in CQC (some) There are no tweaks for the Assault Scrambler as it may be suffering from Armor tanking environment, unless there is a specific reason you can find, there is nothing in the stats that says it should be. Sweat, thanks for watching! I hope the increase to 600 rpm on the TAC fixes the misfire issue I tried to point out. The rest of the changes look good as well. I'll do a follow up video if these changes are made to compare. YouTube

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6528	Posted - 2014.09.03 11:09:00 - [80] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: stuff How does this help the performance of the standard gallente assault rifle besides a little hipfire kick? That's not going to make the primary variant stop underperforming. Many players swear by the Assault Rifle actually being ok, don't want to do too many things at once. Any splendid ideas? We don't want to do damage changes nor range for the time being. What do you think is the major drawback in the handling of the AR? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"



CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6528	Posted - 2014.09.03 11:14:00 - [81] - Quote ratamaq doc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Watching the TAR vs Scrambler video and poring over the rifle data, we propose these small tweaks. In most cases, the Gallente rifle family just has overall the worst comparative kick and dispersion so we want to bring them closer to the rest of the rifles. Bear in mind that these are very small tweaks except for the Gallente ones that are heavily underperforming Reduce Hipfire dispersion of Tactical Assault Rifle (TAR) to be closer to the Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Reduce Hipfire Kick of TAR to be closer to Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Increase Hipfire Kick of Scrambler Rifle to be closer to TAR (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Assault rifle (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles (tiny) Reduce Zoomed Dispersion of Gallente Breach Rifles (considerable) Set ROF of both Scrambler and TAR to 600 Increase Hipfire Kick of Rail Rifles on second or more rapid consecutive shot, so full auto will be less accurate in CQC (some) There are no tweaks for the Assault Scrambler as it may be suffering from Armor tanking environment, unless there is a specific reason you can find, there is nothing in the stats that says it should be. Sweat, thanks for watching! I hope the increase to 600 rpm on the TAC fixes the misfire issue I tried to point out. The rest of the changes look good as well. I'll do a follow up video if these changes are made to compare. If you are offering, why not a Rail Rifle vs Breach AR comparison, and a Burst Rifle to Combat Rifle, and the crowning achievement, Assault Rifles vs each other. I would love to see what a veteran player thinks of each of these comparisons. . "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2243	Posted - 2014.09.03 11:16:00 - [82] - Quote Cruor Abominare wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Stickied and edited Thanks for the input. The fact of the matter is that the weapon's efficiency is considerably higher than the rest of the rifle population. Those rifles are also measured against Public matches so doesn't create a comparison bias. Turbo controllers, can be used for more than just the Scrambler, so the numbers should not be biased due to that It is a skill weapon, for sure, which explains why it is less used than the other rifles. I also believe, that even with a majority of the playerbase Armor tanking, it is going to be even more efficient through the shield module improvements we are proposing, after swaying more players over to Shield Tanking. We certainly don't want to overnerf this weapon, just tweak it. ROF changes seem to hit both dps and turbo controllers. What could be an acceptable reduction in ROF? 520 RoF, TAR hipfire. Done Whelp just as useless as a tar now! Yeah, all you get is more range, damage, headshot multiplier and charge shot! "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 1049	Posted - 2014.09.03 11:16:00 - [83] - Quote Hmm, seems like, rather than nerfing SR down to closer to the rest of the rifles, the proposed changes will just kick Tac AR up to SR level. Dust/Eve transfers
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 2988	Posted - 2014.09.03 11:20:00 - [84] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: stuff How does this help the performance of the standard gallente assault rifle besides a little hipfire kick? That's not going to make the primary variant stop underperforming. Many players swear by the Assault Rifle actually being ok, don't want to do too many things at once. Any splendid ideas? We don't want to do damage changes nor range for the time being. What do you think is the major drawback in the handling of the AR? >Armor/hybrid tanks this very much. (I suggested a fix for this) >Other weapons being as good or better in CQC (addressed I hope) >Range (unless long range weapons get their CQC abilities stripped) but even so it doesn't feel like its DPS compensates much for its range. >DPS could be a smidge higher to compensate for its range and that the AR competes with the HMG at short range, so far if you want a good CQC 0-10 meters the shotgun or HMG, if you want a good 10-30M weapon the HMG, 40-70 any other weapon. So overall the AR is only useful within a range of 30-40M or 10-40 meters if there are no HMG's competing (as if ). CCP Rattati wrote: If you are offering, why not a Rail Rifle vs Breach AR comparison, and a Burst Rifle to Combat Rifle, and the crowning achievement, Assault Rifles vs each other. I would love to see what a veteran player thinks of each of these comparisons. . Easy they all need more DPS or more range, if more DPS they need better CQC abilities. Assault weapons, all need slightly less range than their main counterpart, they need more DPS and CQC abilities but not going over the AR nor close since they would all still have longer range. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
ratamaq doc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 825	Posted - 2014.09.03 11:20:00 - [85] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: stuff How does this help the performance of the standard gallente assault rifle besides a little hipfire kick? That's not going to make the primary variant stop underperforming. Many players swear by the Assault Rifle actually being ok, don't want to do too many things at once. Any splendid ideas? We don't want to do damage changes nor range for the time being. What do you think is the major drawback in the handling of the AR? Maybe a slight RoF increase? I haven't really played with the AR much in the recent past, but it seems like the assault variants of each of the other rifles perform better, where that is not the case with all other variants. RR > Breach AR, SCR > TAC, CR > Burst. If it should be that way than the GEK and Duvalle should out perform the ASCR, ACR, and ARR in CQC heavily and still be viable at medium to mid-long ranges. YouTube
ratamaq doc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 825	Posted - 2014.09.03 11:29:00 - [86] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: ratamaq doc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Watching the TAR vs Scrambler video and poring over the rifle data, we propose these small tweaks. In most cases, the Gallente rifle family just has overall the worst comparative kick and dispersion so we want to bring them closer to the rest of the rifles. Bear in mind that these are very small tweaks except for the Gallente ones that are heavily underperforming Reduce Hipfire dispersion of Tactical Assault Rifle (TAR) to be closer to the Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Reduce Hipfire Kick of TAR to be closer to Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Increase Hipfire Kick of Scrambler Rifle to be closer to TAR (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Assault rifle (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles (tiny) Reduce Zoomed Dispersion of Gallente Breach Rifles (considerable) Set ROF of both Scrambler and TAR to 600 Increase Hipfire Kick of Rail Rifles on second or more rapid consecutive shot, so full auto will be less accurate in CQC (some) There are no tweaks for the Assault Scrambler as it may be suffering from Armor tanking environment, unless there is a specific reason you can find, there is nothing in the stats that says it should be. Sweat, thanks for watching! I hope the increase to 600 rpm on the TAC fixes the misfire issue I tried to point out. The rest of the changes look good as well. I'll do a follow up video if these changes are made to compare. If you are offering, why not a Rail Rifle vs Breach AR comparison, and a Burst Rifle to Combat Rifle, and the crowning achievement, Assault Rifles vs each other. I would love to see what a veteran player thinks of each of these comparisons. . 0.0 that will take some time to capture that much actual game footage, plus I'd have to actually drop skills past level 1 into the RR. >.<. I'll see what I can do, but it won't be today. Damn job and life and stuff. YouTube
medomai grey warravens Capital Punishment. 949	Posted - 2014.09.03 11:31:00 - [87] - Quote If you want to make certain rifles less viable in close quarters and vice versa, I suggest introducing gun sway while moving. Guns which excel in close range sway little or not at all while longer range guns sway more while moving. This would make longer range guns less viable in CQC because strafing would make it more difficult to hit a target while short range guns would experience this to a lesser extent or not at all. What percentile of Dust514's infantry arsenal belongs to the category of machine guns?
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 536	Posted - 2014.09.03 11:50:00 - [88] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: stuff How does this help the performance of the standard gallente assault rifle besides a little hipfire kick? That's not going to make the primary variant stop underperforming. Many players swear by the Assault Rifle actually being ok, don't want to do too many things at once. Any splendid ideas? We don't want to do damage changes nor range for the time being. What do you think is the major drawback in the handling of the AR? ammo. needs more reserve ammo. maybe bigger clip as well
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2512	Posted - 2014.09.03 11:51:00 - [89] - Quote honestly my worst issue is for some reason the weapon isn't APPLYING the damage the way a lot of other weapons do. It's like you wind up hitbox glitching or something. this is especially noticable with scouts who strafe right through a line of incoming autofire and take no damage. I don't know if anyone notices issues with actually having the weapons apply the damage. I have no problems with rails and scrams (when I aim) and i can chalk up my issues with the CR to me sucking with burst fire weapons thoroughly. But for some reason alot of the time the ARs don't seem to be applying all (or any) damage when they are fired in close, which is helping the other rifles overperform against them in my observation. And my above statement about scouts isn't a "They're OP! it's literally I see them walk through my lines of fire and not take damage. I had one strafe through an HMG spray & pray a few times, and only lose a third of their shields after the hitsstarted registering. But it's not exclusive to scouts. The AR seems to have a wishy-washy registry of hits to me. I don't know how to explain it further and I'm really wishing I had video capture at the moment to show you what I'm talking about. I've seen it crop up on the laser rifle too, when firing on a moving target, the game loves to have the target move "between the bullets" as it were, and not take hits.
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 2989	Posted - 2014.09.03 11:58:00 - [90] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: honestly my worst issue is for some reason the weapon isn't APPLYING the damage the way a lot of other weapons do. It's like you wind up hitbox glitching or something. this is especially noticable with scouts who strafe right through a line of incoming autofire and take no damage. I don't know if anyone notices issues with actually having the weapons apply the damage. I have no problems with rails and scrams (when I aim) and i can chalk up my issues with the CR to me sucking with burst fire weapons thoroughly. But for some reason alot of the time the ARs don't seem to be applying all (or any) damage when they are fired in close, which is helping the other rifles overperform against them in my observation. And my above statement about scouts isn't a "They're OP! it's literally I see them walk through my lines of fire and not take damage. I had one strafe through an HMG spray & pray a few times, and only lose a third of their shields after the hitsstarted registering. But it's not exclusive to scouts. The AR seems to have a wishy-washy registry of hits to me. I don't know how to explain it further and I'm really wishing I had video capture at the moment to show you what I'm talking about. I've seen it crop up on the laser rifle too, when firing on a moving target, the game loves to have the target move "between the bullets" as it were, and not take hits. This happens to me with the AR and the BK. Another problem that just drives me insane, an old problem actually. Is that when you are shooting the AR if you go from hip to ads the weapon just goes bananas and stars shooting everywhere impossible to keep it accurate like this without stopping your fire for a brief half second. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2512	Posted - 2014.09.03 12:01:00 - [91] - Quote actually, now that I think about it, I have this problem on all of the fast-fire automatics to a greater or lesser extent, from the asscram to the HMG
BlazeXYZ xCosmic Voidx Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 191	Posted - 2014.09.03 12:02:00 - [92] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Watching the TAR vs Scrambler video and poring over the rifle data, we propose these small tweaks. In most cases, the Gallente rifle family just has overall the worst comparative kick and dispersion so we want to bring them closer to the rest of the rifles. Bear in mind that these are very small tweaks except for the Gallente ones that are heavily underperforming Reduce Hipfire dispersion of Tactical Assault Rifle (TAR) to be closer to the Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Reduce Hipfire Kick of TAR to be closer to Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Increase Hipfire Kick of Scrambler Rifle to be closer to TAR (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Assault rifle (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles (tiny) Reduce Zoomed Dispersion of Gallente Breach Rifles (considerable) Set ROF of both Scrambler and TAR to 600 Increase Hipfire Kick of Rail Rifles on second or more rapid consecutive shot, so full auto will be less accurate in CQC (some) There are no tweaks for the Assault Scrambler as it may be suffering from Armor tanking environment, unless there is a specific reason you can find, there is nothing in the stats that says it should be. Can you change the scope of the TAR in anyway. The ScR is more easy to aim with that scope than the TAR. The Blazing Intellect Machine
I-Shayz-I I----------I 4754	Posted - 2014.09.03 12:08:00 - [93] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: There are no tweaks for the Assault Scrambler as it may be suffering from Armor tanking environment, unless there is a specific reason you can find, there is nothing in the stats that says it should be. Here's why the ASCR sucks so bad: http://youtu.be/hrVDPmIhkx8 Basically, the kick is similar to the RR, which makes it a very unreliable weapon at long range. Combine that with a shorter range than the standard scrambler AND the fact that it does 80% damage to armor with no prof bonus makes the weapon suffer when an enemy is barely outside of your optimal. The horrid kick of the weapon makes it so that only a fraction of shots actually hit the target at range, and when your DPS comes from most of your shots hitting, having the weapon miss so much is terrible. In CQC, a normal scrambler rifle can take down a sentinel faster than the ASCR because each shot means more...heck, even against caldari suits the ASCR misses too much to feel like much of a threat. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
Jin no kami Valor Coalition Red Whines. 81	Posted - 2014.09.03 13:00:00 - [94] - Quote This is gonna make gal assault op if they implement these buffs =ƒÿ+=ƒÿ+=ƒÿ+=ƒÿ+=ƒÿ+=ƒÿ+=ƒÿ+
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2512	Posted - 2014.09.03 13:18:00 - [95] - Quote Jin no kami wrote: This is gonna make gal assault op if they implement these buffs =ƒÿ+=ƒÿ+=ƒÿ+=ƒÿ+=ƒÿ+=ƒÿ+=ƒÿ+ doubt it
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 2990	Posted - 2014.09.03 13:19:00 - [96] - Quote Jin no kami wrote: This is gonna make gal assault op if they implement these buffs =ƒÿ+=ƒÿ+=ƒÿ+=ƒÿ+=ƒÿ+=ƒÿ+=ƒÿ+ How so? Because our weapons won't be outdone by other weapons. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 210	Posted - 2014.09.03 14:26:00 - [97] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Cruor Abominare wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Stickied and edited Thanks for the input. The fact of the matter is that the weapon's efficiency is considerably higher than the rest of the rifle population. Those rifles are also measured against Public matches so doesn't create a comparison bias. Turbo controllers, can be used for more than just the Scrambler, so the numbers should not be biased due to that It is a skill weapon, for sure, which explains why it is less used than the other rifles. I also believe, that even with a majority of the playerbase Armor tanking, it is going to be even more efficient through the shield module improvements we are proposing, after swaying more players over to Shield Tanking. We certainly don't want to overnerf this weapon, just tweak it. ROF changes seem to hit both dps and turbo controllers. What could be an acceptable reduction in ROF? 520 RoF, TAR hipfire. Done Whelp just as useless as a tar now! Yeah, all you get is more range, ~~damage~~, [s]headshot multiplier[s/] and charge shot! The TAC AR actually does more Damage Per shot than the ScR, and has a slightly more favorable damage profile IMO. The ScR does not have a special headshot multiplier like the ScP. It is the Standard 150% that all the rifles have. I strongly agree with what CCP is doing with the ScR/TacAR, now us DMR users will have 2 viable options to play around with (if the higher RoF fixed the strangeness of the TacAR...)
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP 905	Posted - 2014.09.03 14:35:00 - [98] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Watching the TAR vs Scrambler video and poring over the rifle data, we propose these small tweaks. In most cases, the Gallente rifle family just has overall the worst comparative kick and dispersion so we want to bring them closer to the rest of the rifles. Bear in mind that these are very small tweaks except for the Gallente ones that are heavily underperforming Reduce Hipfire dispersion of Tactical Assault Rifle (TAR) to be closer to the Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Reduce Hipfire Kick of TAR to be closer to Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Increase Hipfire Kick of Scrambler Rifle to be closer to TAR (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Assault rifle (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles (tiny) Reduce Zoomed Dispersion of Gallente Breach Rifles (considerable) Set ROF of both Scrambler and TAR to 600 Increase Hipfire Kick of Rail Rifles on second or more rapid consecutive shot, so full auto will be less accurate in CQC (some) There are no tweaks for the Assault Scrambler as it may be suffering from Armor tanking environment, unless there is a specific reason you can find, there is nothing in the stats that says it should be. I am one of the few people that routinely runs the AScR and I can tell you that your are mostly right about it just suffering from armor tank being king. It is absolutely impossible to run on a fitting where you are not carrying a nanohive no matter how accurate you are or how careful you are with your ammo. Increasing the base ammo carried by 72 (one clip) would probably increase the popularity by a large margin.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3434	Posted - 2014.09.03 15:01:00 - [99] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: There are no tweaks for the Assault Scrambler as it may be suffering from Armor tanking environment, unless there is a specific reason you can find, there is nothing in the stats that says it should be. Here's why the ASCR sucks so bad: http://youtu.be/hrVDPmIhkx8 Basically, the kick is similar to the RR, which makes it a very unreliable weapon at long range. Except that there isn't a skill to reduce the scrambler kick so even the Carthum with prof 5 and 3 damage mods underpreforms Combine that with a shorter range than the standard scrambler AND the fact that it does 80% damage to armor with no prof bonus makes the weapon suffer when an enemy is barely outside of your optimal. The horrid kick of the weapon makes it so that only a fraction of shots actually hit the target at range, and when your DPS comes from most of your shots hitting, having the weapon miss so much is terrible. In CQC, a normal scrambler rifle can take down a sentinel faster than the ASCR because each shot means more...heck, even against caldari suits the ASCR misses too much to feel like much of a threat. Umm I don't know how to tell you this but there was no recoil there and kick was negligible. Unless you were compensating for it, the weapon never moved from that caution sign. Get the ACR and try the same exercise with that, you'll find yourself halfway up the Door. Get the ARR and try the same execise with that, you'll find the sights jump around like a frog on springs. What you are prehaps talking about is the ADS dispersion, in which case yes it would probably benifit from a lower ADS dispersion. For clarification Kick is how much the site vary/sway from there point of origin after a shot is fired. High Kick results in the weapons feeling unruly in ADS but will require little actual repositioning. Recoil is how bad the torque reaction is, as the rifle kicks it moves slightly upwards and to the right (traditionally - for a right handed weapon), HROF weapons typically exhibit the most recoil, this physically changes the aim of the weapon and requires re targeting during prolonged periods of firing. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Balamob SVER True Blood Public.Disorder. 41	Posted - 2014.09.03 15:57:00 - [100] - Quote I am an amarr assault lvl 5, scramble rifle lvl 5 prof 5..... I consider that if theres gonna be a reduction on rate of fire (650 ideally), i think a reduction on heat build up or increase of cooldown after this change is made if you consider necessarythis measure (also good for non assault amarr users), or even better, a balance between this 2 factors, a cooldown 50% increase and a reduction of 10-20% on heat built up for example. exMAG vet. Sver True Blood faction FTW.

Ryme Intrinseca Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1721	Posted - 2014.09.03 16:06:00 - [101] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Set ROF of both Scrambler and TAR to 600 A slight improvement in respect of the ScR, but why make the TAR more attractive to turbo abusers?
Ryme Intrinseca Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1721	Posted - 2014.09.03 16:11:00 - [102] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: There are no tweaks for the Assault Scrambler as it may be suffering from Armor tanking environment, unless there is a specific reason you can find, there is nothing in the stats that says it should be. Here's why the ASCR sucks so bad: http://youtu.be/hrVDPmIhkx8 Basically, the kick is similar to the RR, which makes it a very unreliable weapon at long range. Except that there isn't a skill to reduce the scrambler kick so even the Carthum with prof 5 and 3 damage mods underpreforms Combine that with a shorter range than the standard scrambler AND the fact that it does 80% damage to armor with no prof bonus makes the weapon suffer when an enemy is barely outside of your optimal. The horrid kick of the weapon makes it so that only a fraction of shots actually hit the target at range, and when your DPS comes from most of your shots hitting, having the weapon miss so much is terrible. In CQC, a normal scrambler rifle can take down a sentinel faster than the ASCR because each shot means more...heck, even against caldari suits the ASCR misses too much to feel like much of a threat. Umm I don't know how to tell you this but there was no recoil there and kick was negligible. Unless you were compensating for it, the weapon never moved from that caution sign. Get the ACR and try the same exercise with that, you'll find yourself halfway up the Door. Get the ARR and try the same execise with that, you'll find the sights jump around like a frog on springs. What you are prehaps talking about is the ADS dispersion, in which case yes it would probably benifit from a lower ADS dispersion. For clarification Kick is how much the site vary/sway from there point of origin after a shot is fired. High Kick results in the weapons feeling unruly in ADS but will require little actual repositioning. Recoil is how bad the torque reaction is, as the rifle kicks it moves slightly upwards and to the right (traditionally - for a right handed weapon), HROF weapons typically exhibit the most recoil, this physically changes the aim of the weapon and requires re targeting during prolonged periods of firing. I've always understood kick to simply be a colloquial term for recoil, i.e. they are the same thing. But you're right, the video clearly shows there is virtually no recoil when using the AScR.
Funkmaster Whale Pure Evil. 2388	Posted - 2014.09.03 16:37:00 - [103] - Quote Honeslty as a vet player I have not had any issues with the TAR since the damage buff. It does its job as far as being effective at range. This proposed buff seems like it'd bring it almost back to where it was in Uprising 1.0. They nerfed the hip-fire and RoF back then for a reason. This buff seems like it would make it a jack of all trades weapon again... Follow me on Twitch.tv!
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 478	Posted - 2014.09.03 16:55:00 - [104] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: stuff How does this help the performance of the standard gallente assault rifle besides a little hipfire kick? That's not going to make the primary variant stop underperforming. Many players swear by the Assault Rifle actually being ok, don't want to do too many things at once. Any splendid ideas? We don't want to do damage changes nor range for the time being. What do you think is the major drawback in the handling of the AR? Well one thing about the AR compared to the Combat Rifles and Scrambler Rifles is that its hip fire dispersion (and to a lesser extent recoil) is much greater. It's not as bad if you burst it though. Still, as I see it there's no reason to use the Duvolle when you could use the Six Kin--when you're looking for a fully automatic rifle--unless you plan on engaging at around 10-30 meters. The Six Kin has much less hip fire/ADS kick and dispersion (like none), does better against armor (and will more so), fires and reloads faster, has 10 meters more effective range, and has more ammo. The assault rifle has one thing going for it: it does more damage. Maybe for a skilled up Gallente assault who's in optimal that makes it a better gun. Outside of that not so much it seems to me.
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 478	Posted - 2014.09.03 16:56:00 - [105] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: ratamaq doc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Watching the TAR vs Scrambler video and poring over the rifle data, we propose these small tweaks. In most cases, the Gallente rifle family just has overall the worst comparative kick and dispersion so we want to bring them closer to the rest of the rifles. Bear in mind that these are very small tweaks except for the Gallente ones that are heavily underperforming Reduce Hipfire dispersion of Tactical Assault Rifle (TAR) to be closer to the Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Reduce Hipfire Kick of TAR to be closer to Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Increase Hipfire Kick of Scrambler Rifle to be closer to TAR (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Assault rifle (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles (tiny) Reduce Zoomed Dispersion of Gallente Breach Rifles (considerable) Set ROF of both Scrambler and TAR to 600 Increase Hipfire Kick of Rail Rifles on second or more rapid consecutive shot, so full auto will be less accurate in CQC (some) There are no tweaks for the Assault Scrambler as it may be suffering from Armor tanking environment, unless there is a specific reason you can find, there is nothing in the stats that says it should be. Sweat, thanks for watching! I hope the increase to 600 rpm on the TAC fixes the misfire issue I tried to point out. The rest of the changes look good as well. I'll do a follow up video if these changes are made to compare. If you are offering, why not a Rail Rifle vs Breach AR comparison, and a Burst Rifle to Combat Rifle, and the crowning achievement, Assault Rifles vs each other. I would love to see what a veteran player thinks of each of these comparisons. . Yes please!!!! As many of these videos as possible. All combinations!!!! Go crazy!!! I eat this stuff up like puddin!!
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 2994	Posted - 2014.09.03 17:08:00 - [106] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: stuff How does this help the performance of the standard gallente assault rifle besides a little hipfire kick? That's not going to make the primary variant stop underperforming. Many players swear by the Assault Rifle actually being ok, don't want to do too many things at once. Any splendid ideas? We don't want to do damage changes nor range for the time being. What do you think is the major drawback in the handling of the AR? >hybrid tanks with tons of armor. (I suggested a fix for this) shield weapons can't kill high armor but armor weapon can kill high armor and shields. >Other weapons being as good or better in CQC (addressed I hope) >Range (unless long range weapons get their CQC abilities stripped) but even so it doesn't feel like its DPS compensates much for its range. >DPS could be a smidge higher to compensate for its range and that the AR competes with the HMG at short range, so far if you want a good CQC 0-10 meters the shotgun or HMG, if you want a good 10-30M weapon the HMG, 40-70 any other weapon. So overall the AR is only useful within a range of 30-40M or 10-40 meters if there are no HMG's competing (as if ). CCP Rattati wrote: If you are offering, why not a Rail Rifle vs Breach AR comparison, and a Burst Rifle to Combat Rifle, and the crowning achievement, Assault Rifles vs each other. I would love to see what a veteran player thinks of each of these comparisons. . Easy they all need more DPS or more range, if more DPS they need better CQC abilities. For example the burst CR is better than the burst AR at CQC and I believe the burst CR also has higher DPS (can't remember) this should be reversed because the burst AR also has lower range. The burst AR should be much better at CQC and have the higher DPS. Assault weapons, all need slightly less range than their main counterpart, they need more DPS and CQC abilities but not going over the AR nor close since they would all still have longer range. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
1st Lieutenant Tiberius 0uter.Heaven 2228	Posted - 2014.09.03 17:09:00 - [107] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: stuff How does this help the performance of the standard gallente assault rifle besides a little hipfire kick? That's not going to make the primary variant stop underperforming. Many players swear by the Assault Rifle actually being ok, don't want to do too many things at once. Any splendid ideas? We don't want to do damage changes nor range for the time being. What do you think is the major drawback in the handling of the AR? Maybe it's one of those things that aren't necessarily an issue with the weapon itself. I have seen a good few people run the AR and absolutely wreck face with it (I.e Nega Matix running Duvolle on a Min Scout in PC) so I agree with you saying that the AR is in an OK place, for tweaking it MIGHT put it in not so OK of a place. But perhaps instead of looking at the AR we should look at the operator instead. I think a change for the Gal Assault to better augment the Plasma weapons is a better approach then trying to tweak the gun itself, make it like the Amarr Assault + ScR combo; The ScR is deadly on any suit so long as the operator is able to manage a very small heat window, high damage and reliable accuracy. But when paired with the Amarr Assault it truly becomes a weapons system, the ultimate dedicated marksman, able to pump out more rounds and engage more targets at once or in quick succession. Now imagine if we can talk like this about all the assault suits. I.e The AR is deadly on any suit, a reliable full auto weapon that has a fairly balanced damage profile against both shields and armor, hits hard, has a good reserve of ammo and very operator friendly to use. But when paired with the Gallente Assault it truly becomes a weapons system, the ultimate shock trooper, able to augment the ROF of these plasma weapons to deadly effect, taking out close range targets faster and in quicker succession. Something like that? I've always been opposed to being told what weapon to run on a particular suit but on the Amarr Assault it makes sense, there is no other weapon you should equip on the suit because it would be a waste of benefits, but if the weapon itself is already pretty good AND is augmented when paired up with a particular suit then it allows other players to want to skill into these suits and revel in the augmentations of their favorite weapon, because this is how I feel about my Amarr Assault + ScR combo; I hardly use the ScR in any other suit and I would never put any other weapon other than the ScR on my Amarr Assault. It seems that this is the niche for assault suits CCP is going for but they fell short when designing the Cal and Gal bonuses, the Min and Amarr are perfect for the assaults. The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
1st Lieutenant Tiberius 0uter.Heaven 2228	Posted - 2014.09.03 17:17:00 - [108] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Watching the TAR vs Scrambler video and poring over the rifle data, we propose these small tweaks. In most cases, the Gallente rifle family just has overall the worst comparative kick and dispersion so we want to bring them closer to the rest of the rifles. Bear in mind that these are very small tweaks except for the Gallente ones that are heavily underperforming Reduce Hipfire dispersion of Tactical Assault Rifle (TAR) to be closer to the Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Reduce Hipfire Kick of TAR to be closer to Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Increase Hipfire Kick of Scrambler Rifle to be closer to TAR (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Assault rifle (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles (tiny) Reduce Zoomed Dispersion of Gallente Breach Rifles (considerable) Set ROF of both Scrambler and TAR to 600 Increase Hipfire Kick of Rail Rifles on second or more rapid consecutive shot, so full auto will be less accurate in CQC (some) There are no tweaks for the Assault Scrambler as it may be suffering from Armor tanking environment, unless there is a specific reason you can find, there is nothing in the stats that says it should be. Interesting change proposal. I like the idea of giving the Dedicated Marksmen of this game a choice of platforms to use and I'd probably bust out the TAR some more if these changes come through. Also, can anyone assure me that at 600RPM I would still be able to fire as fast as my finger can pull the trigger? Truly, this is all that matters to me. Is there a lower amount of RPM where this would still be possible? I fear that the Turbo Controller issue would not be completely fixed even with this proposed RPM, but I honestly dont know. I wish you had a test server. I would let you pay me an ISK wage to sit there and test stuff for you Rattati The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 479	Posted - 2014.09.03 17:22:00 - [109] - Quote 1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote: The AR is deadly on any suit, a reliable full auto weapon that has a fairly balanced damage profile against both shields and armor, hits hard, has a good reserve of ammo and very operator friendly to use. But when paired with the Gallente Assault it truly becomes a weapons system, the ultimate shock trooper, able to augment the ROF of these plasma weapons to deadly effect, taking out close range targets faster and in quicker succession. It seems that this is the niche for assault suits CCP is going for but they fell short when designing the Cal and Gal bonuses, the Min and Amarr are perfect for the assaults. Are you suggesting a ROF bonus for Gal assault? That sounds OP but then again that's exactly what the Amarr assault bonus amounts to, though with ScR ROF hopefully soon capped at 600 that might change. Not sure. (I know I said more heat build up is a better answer but honestly I'll take it.) I like what you're saying about weapons systems. That's what Amarr and Minmatar are, fully skilled up--able to fire volley swarms from the ScR or unload a larger clip into someone with a Six Kin. I suppose a ROF bonus for Gallente would be the closest thing to how the Amarr and Minmatar bonuses "evolve" those assaults. A kick reduction bonus for Caldari assaults would similarly "evolve" them, making them more accurate at range and much more deadly in CQC.
Gabriella Grey Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 140	Posted - 2014.09.03 17:23:00 - [110] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: ratamaq doc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Watching the TAR vs Scrambler video and poring over the rifle data, we propose these small tweaks. In most cases, the Gallente rifle family just has overall the worst comparative kick and dispersion so we want to bring them closer to the rest of the rifles. Bear in mind that these are very small tweaks except for the Gallente ones that are heavily underperforming Reduce Hipfire dispersion of Tactical Assault Rifle (TAR) to be closer to the Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Reduce Hipfire Kick of TAR to be closer to Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Increase Hipfire Kick of Scrambler Rifle to be closer to TAR (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Assault rifle (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles (tiny) Reduce Zoomed Dispersion of Gallente Breach Rifles (considerable) Set ROF of both Scrambler and TAR to 600 Increase Hipfire Kick of Rail Rifles on second or more rapid consecutive shot, so full auto will be less accurate in CQC (some) There are no tweaks for the Assault Scrambler as it may be suffering from Armor tanking environment, unless there is a specific reason you can find, there is nothing in the stats that says it should be. Sweat, thanks for watching! I hope the increase to 600 rpm on the TAC fixes the misfire issue I tried to point out. The rest of the changes look good as well. I'll do a follow up video if these changes are made to compare. If you are offering, why not a Rail Rifle vs Breach AR comparison, and a Burst Rifle to Combat Rifle, and the crowning achievement, Assault Rifles vs each other. I would love to see what a veteran player thinks of each of these comparisons. . TAR comparing them to the scrambler rifle is fine but there is some things that need to be looked into. First the make-up of how the guns operate. The TAR has no seizure rate or needs a cool down, and that it has a skill tree that makes the gun's aim better compared to the scrambler rifle tree. Also the difference between percentages of damage, shields vs armor concept should be taken into consideration. I think basing all the assault rifle weapon variants from the scrambler rifle is a great idea Rattati. For me the scrambler has always seemed to be the standard weapon that all the others were made possible buy, in lore and in relation to balance. It will be great to see my arch nemesis rifle being used again, especially by those who have placed skill and time in them, who actually enjoy using them. The only one I disagree with is the ROF. TAR should not have a similar ROF by the simple fact it has no issue with jamming. I would look towards bringing it close but not exact, just because that I feel can easily break the balance you are trying to create here. Some of the biggest issues Scrambler Rifle users have had in the past was TAR rifles having better performance across the board, having no issue with the feedback/overheating issue. TAR users can dance about but a scrambler user can not. The scrambler rifle is a stand and deliver approach as the TAR already has an adaptable use by those players can still jump and dance around without worrying about over heat. Other than that this looks pretty solid for the TAR. Now what is in store for adjusting the combat rifles with ROF, damage, and dispersion in relation to the scrambler rifle and Gallente Assault rifles so once and for all assault weapons will finally be balanced and done with? At that point it will just be low hanging fruit for assault rifles for all to enjoy and then light arms and side arms will be balanced all down hill from there! *Always Grey Skies*

1st Lieutenant Tiberius 0uter.Heaven 2228	Posted - 2014.09.03 17:27:00 - [111] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: 1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote: The AR is deadly on any suit, a reliable full auto weapon that has a fairly balanced damage profile against both shields and armor, hits hard, has a good reserve of ammo and very operator friendly to use. But when paired with the Gallente Assault it truly becomes a weapons system, the ultimate shock trooper, able to augment the ROF of these plasma weapons to deadly effect, taking out close range targets faster and in quicker succession. It seems that this is the niche for assault suits CCP is going for but they fell short when designing the Cal and Gal bonuses, the Min and Amarr are perfect for the assaults. Are you suggesting a ROF bonus for Gal assault? That sounds OP but then again that's exactly what the Amarr assault bonus amounts to, though with ScR ROF hopefully soon capped at 600 that might change. Not sure. (I know I said more heat build up is a better answer but honestly I'll take it.) I like what you're saying about weapons systems. That's what Amarr and Minmatar are, fully skilled up--able to fire volley swarms from the ScR or unload a larger clip into someone with a Six Kin. I suppose a ROF bonus for Gallente would be the closest thing to how the Amarr and Minmatar bonuses "evolve" those assaults. A kick reduction bonus for Caldari assaults would similarly "evolve" them, making them more accurate at range and much more deadly in CQC. I think anything to do with altering the heat sink on the Amarr Assault or the rate at which it builds up and overheats will be detrimental to the weapons system and the dedicated users of the weapons system, like I said before changes to this will directly affect my muscle memory, because I no longer watch the heat gauge, I feel the heat gauge. And being able to pump out more shots from the ScR is not a good way to go, I think the amount level of heat management on the weapon is perfect, perfect in PC and maybe too good in Pubs but thats a matter of the suits youre going against more so than what the weapon is able to do. IMO And yes I am suggesting an ROF bonus for Gal Assault, but a small one like the heat sink on the Amarr Assault, a tiny augmentation that good assault players are able to utilize to deadly effect, making a good weapon just slightly better because this game is a game of decimal points and seconds, small changes go a looonnngg way. I'm not sure what to do with Caldari as I have never skilled into them nor do I like using the RR very much, so I am not going to put forth an uninformed opinion The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
1st Lieutenant Tiberius 0uter.Heaven 2229	Posted - 2014.09.03 17:31:00 - [112] - Quote Gabriella Grey wrote: TAR should not have a similar ROF by the simple fact it has no issue with jamming. Good point. Maybe we could implement an overheat feature on the TAR similar to how the Krin operates? No feedback damage (cause lets face it, only the Amarr are Masochistic) but still a good 5 seconds of having your ** in the wind. Or maybe a reduction of clip size by 3 (from 18 to 15) making it so that the TAR is able to spit out approximately the same number of shots a non Amarr Assault using ScR operator can pump out before overheating? The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven**
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 480	Posted - 2014.09.03 17:32:00 - [113] - Quote 1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote: I think anything to do with altering the heat sink on the Amarr Assault or the rate at which it builds up and overheats will be detrimental to the weapons system and the dedicated users of the weapons system, like I said before changes to this will directly affect my muscle memory, because I no longer watch the heat gauge, I feel the heat gauge. And being able to pump out more shots from the ScR is not a good way to go, I think the amount level of heat management on the weapon is perfect, perfect in PC and maybe too good in Pubs but thats a matter of the suits youre going against more so than what the weapon is able to do. IMO And yes I am suggesting an ROF bonus for Gal Assault, but a small one like the heat sink on the Amarr Assault, a tiny augmentation that good assault players are able to utilize to deadly effect, making a good weapon just slightly better because this game is a game of decimal points and seconds, small changes go a looonnngg way. I'm not sure what to do with Caldari as I have never skilled into them nor do I like using the RR very much, so I am not going to put forth an uninformed opinion Well a 25% faster ROF would be pretty OP. But something less than that would actually be perfect I think. Better in Gallente assaults role than a range bonus. And it looks like Rattati is not planning on increasing heat build up, but he's suggesting reducing your ROF by 106 RPM. You ok with that? :D
1st Lieutenant Tiberius 0uter.Heaven 2229	Posted - 2014.09.03 17:37:00 - [114] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: Well a 25% faster ROF would be pretty OP. But something less than that would actually be perfect I think. Better in Gallente assaults role than a range bonus. And it looks like Rattati is not planning on increasing heat build up, but he's suggesting reducing your ROF by 106 RPM. You ok with that? :D Maybe 15% then? But again, I am not sure so I dont want to put out uninformed opinions. And yes I am absolutely okay with an ROF change so long as it hurts Turbo Controller users but still allows me to fire as many shots as my finger can depress the trigger; thats all I am concerned about. The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 480	Posted - 2014.09.03 17:42:00 - [115] - Quote 1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote: zzZaXxx wrote: Well a 25% faster ROF would be pretty OP. But something less than that would actually be perfect I think. Better in Gallente assaults role than a range bonus. And it looks like Rattati is not planning on increasing heat build up, but he's suggesting reducing your ROF by 106 RPM. You ok with that? :D Maybe 15% then? But again, I am not sure so I dont want to put out uninformed opinions. And yes I am absolutely okay with an ROF change so long as it hurts Turbo Controller users but still allows me to fire as many shots as my finger can depress the trigger; thats all I am concerned about. Ok, I'm confused. The assault rail rifle's ROF is 600. So if the ScR's new ROF is 600 you should only be able to fire as fast as an AsRR right?
1st Lieutenant Tiberius 0uter.Heaven 2230	Posted - 2014.09.03 17:44:00 - [116] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: 1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote: zzZaXxx wrote: Well a 25% faster ROF would be pretty OP. But something less than that would actually be perfect I think. Better in Gallente assaults role than a range bonus. And it looks like Rattati is not planning on increasing heat build up, but he's suggesting reducing your ROF by 106 RPM. You ok with that? :D Maybe 15% then? But again, I am not sure so I dont want to put out uninformed opinions. And yes I am absolutely okay with an ROF change so long as it hurts Turbo Controller users but still allows me to fire as many shots as my finger can depress the trigger; thats all I am concerned about. Ok, I'm confused. The assault rail rifle's ROF is 600. So if the ScR's new ROF is 600 you should only be able to fire as fast as an AsRR right? I dont actually know lol hopefully someone will come and provide an explanation The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
ratamaq doc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 842	Posted - 2014.09.03 17:53:00 - [117] - Quote 1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote: I think anything to do with altering the heat sink on the Amarr Assault or the rate at which it builds up and overheats will be detrimental to the weapons system and the dedicated users of the weapons system, like I said before changes to this will directly affect my muscle memory, because I no longer watch the heat gauge, I feel the heat gauge. And being able to pump out more shots from the ScR is not a good way to go, I think the amount level of heat management on the weapon is perfect, perfect in PC and maybe too good in Pubs but thats a matter of the suits youre going against more so than what the weapon is able to do. IMO I'm with you here. I've been using the SCR since it launched and feeling and muscle memory is everything to me now. I don't want to have to adjust to my weapons mood swing. I already have to deal with that with my wife. YouTube
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2516	Posted - 2014.09.03 17:55:00 - [118] - Quote Gabriella Grey wrote: TAR comparing them to the scrambler rifle is fine but there is some things that need to be looked into. First the make-up of how the guns operate. The TAR has no seizure rate or needs a cool down, The TAR cannot charge a shot and lead off with crippling alpha. Net gain: zero.
1st Lieutenant Tiberius 0uter.Heaven 2231	Posted - 2014.09.03 17:56:00 - [119] - Quote ratamaq doc wrote: 1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote: I think anything to do with altering the heat sink on the Amarr Assault or the rate at which it builds up and overheats will be detrimental to the weapons system and the dedicated users of the weapons system, like I said before changes to this will directly affect my muscle memory, because I no longer watch the heat gauge, I feel the heat gauge. And being able to pump out more shots from the ScR is not a good way to go, I think the amount level of heat management on the weapon is perfect, perfect in PC and maybe too good in Pubs but thats a matter of the suits youre going against more so than what the weapon is able to do. IMO I'm with you here. I've been using the SCR since it launched and feeling and muscle memory is everything to me now. I don't want to have to adjust to my weapons mood swing. I already have to deal with that with my wife. Lmao, and from the video I take you being "a man of rhythm" as you being a drummer? Because I am a guitarist and muscle memory is everything when trying to intricately play an instrument while maintaining rhythm. Similar concept to figuring out the heat management and firing intervals of the ScR The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
ratamaq doc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 842	Posted - 2014.09.03 18:04:00 - [120] - Quote 1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote: ratamaq doc wrote: 1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote: I think anything to do with altering the heat sink on the Amarr Assault or the rate at which it builds up and overheats will be detrimental to the weapons system and the dedicated users of the weapons system, like I said before changes to this will directly affect my muscle memory, because I no longer watch the heat gauge, I feel the heat gauge. And being able to pump out more shots from the ScR is not a good way to go, I think the amount level of heat management on the weapon is perfect, perfect in PC and maybe too good in Pubs but thats a matter of the suits youre going against more so than what the weapon is able to do. IMO I'm with you here. I've been using the SCR since it launched and feeling and muscle memory is everything to me now. I don't want to have to adjust to my weapons mood swing. I already have to deal with that with my wife. Lmao, and from the video I take you being "a man of rhythm" as you being a drummer? Because I am a guitarist and muscle memory is everything when trying to intricately play an instrument while maintaining rhythm. Similar concept to figuring out the heat management and firing intervals of the ScR Yep, been a drummer since grade school (a ratamacue is one of the 26 American standard drum rudiments). I'm working up some DPS math right now on the TAC vs SCR to add to the Balance discussion. Finding some interesting things that will probably interest you with regards to rhythm of the SCR. I'm trying to find the best combination of rhythm and rest to get a theoretical DPS over time for the SCR. The TAC was pretty easy. On paper, even leveling their Damage at 70hp per round, the TAC is out performing the SCR by a good bit. I'll post the numbers and how I came to them shortly. YouTube

Gabriella Grey Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 141	Posted - 2014.09.03 18:13:00 - [121] - Quote ratamaq doc wrote: 1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote: ratamaq doc wrote: 1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote: I think anything to do with altering the heat sink on the Amarr Assault or the rate at which it builds up and overheats will be detrimental to the weapons system and the dedicated users of the weapons system, like I said before changes to this will directly affect my muscle memory, because I no longer watch the heat gauge, I feel the heat gauge. And being able to pump out more shots from the ScR is not a good way to go, I think the amount level of heat management on the weapon is perfect, perfect in PC and maybe too good in Pubs but thats a matter of the suits youre going against more so than what the weapon is able to do. IMO I'm with you here. I've been using the SCR since it launched and feeling and muscle memory is everything to me now. I don't want to have to adjust to my weapons mood swing. I already have to deal with that with my wife. Lmao, and from the video I take you being "a man of rhythm" as you being a drummer? Because I am a guitarist and muscle memory is everything when trying to intricately play an instrument while maintaining rhythm. Similar concept to figuring out the heat management and firing intervals of the ScR Yep, been a drummer since grade school (a ratamacue is one of the 26 American standard drum rudiments). I'm working up some DPS math right now on the TAC vs SCR to add to the Balance discussion. Finding some interesting things that will probably interest you with regards to rhythm of the SCR. I'm trying to find the best combination of rhythm and rest to get a theoretical DPS over time for the SCR. The TAC was pretty easy. On paper, even leveling their Damage at 70hp per round, the TAC is out performing the SCR by a good bit. I'll post the numbers and how I came to them shortly. Please add in there that their functions are night and day. I think their functions have more to play with than anything. The scrambler rifle has a feedback/over heating function, charge function, and the TAR does not. I think these things play a much more important role than any new or old numbers, because these things directly change the interaction with them to the user and with that said, the Scrambler rifle is more limited with it's interaction than the TAR. *Always Grey Skies*
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3439	Posted - 2014.09.03 20:04:00 - [122] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: There are no tweaks for the Assault Scrambler as it may be suffering from Armor tanking environment, unless there is a specific reason you can find, there is nothing in the stats that says it should be. Here's why the ASCR sucks so bad: http://youtu.be/hrVDPmIhkx8 Basically, the kick is similar to the RR, which makes it a very unreliable weapon at long range. Except that there isn't a skill to reduce the scrambler kick so even the Carthum with prof 5 and 3 damage mods underpreforms Combine that with a shorter range than the standard scrambler AND the fact that it does 80% damage to armor with no prof bonus makes the weapon suffer when an enemy is barely outside of your optimal. The horrid kick of the weapon makes it so that only a fraction of shots actually hit the target at range, and when your DPS comes from most of your shots hitting, having the weapon miss so much is terrible. In CQC, a normal scrambler rifle can take down a sentinel faster than the ASCR because each shot means more...heck, even against caldari suits the ASCR misses too much to feel like much of a threat. Umm I don't know how to tell you this but there was no recoil there and kick was negligible. Unless you were compensating for it, the weapon never moved from that caution sign. Get the ACR and try the same exercise with that, you'll find yourself halfway up the Door. Get the ARR and try the same execise with that, you'll find the sights jump around like a frog on springs. What you are prehaps talking about is the ADS dispersion, in which case yes it would probably benifit from a lower ADS dispersion. For clarification Kick is how much the site vary/sway from there point of origin after a shot is fired. High Kick results in the weapons feeling unruly in ADS but will require little actual repositioning. Recoil is how bad the torque reaction is, as the rifle kicks it moves slightly upwards and to the right (traditionally - for a right handed weapon), HROF weapons typically exhibit the most recoil, this physically changes the aim of the weapon and requires re targeting during prolonged periods of firing. I've always understood kick to simply be a colloquial term for recoil, i.e. they are the same thing. But you're right, the video clearly shows there is virtually no recoil when using the AScR. I learnt the difference in a ver strange way, as a Cadet I fired .22 Rifles and L98A2 Marksman Rifles. The .22 has no kick, but the weight of the rifle means readjusting from it is difficult, which gives you recoil. The L98A2 however is lightweight and the base stock has a spring in it to mitigate recoil slightly. You can fire at a decent rate of 3 shot per second (bolt shot) and keep your rounds on targer much better. A friend of mine (a guy called 'pockets') was used to firing the .22 and got into the habit of resting the butt of his shoulder while firing. The first time he fired an L98 the rifle kicked so much the butt flew up and broke his nose. Kick and recoil ;) They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
ratamaq doc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 847	Posted - 2014.09.03 20:22:00 - [123] - Quote Gabriella Grey wrote: ratamaq doc wrote: 1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote: ratamaq doc wrote: 1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote: SNIP SNIP SNIP SNIP Please add in there that their functions are night and day. I think their functions have more to play with than anything. The scrambler rifle has a feedback/over heating function, charge function, and the TAR does not. I think these things play a much more important role than any new or old numbers, because these things directly change the interaction with them to the user and with that said, the Scrambler rifle is more limited with it's interaction than the TAR. Repost from my other thread. Ok, so crunching some numbers and doing some test has led me to, damn this is a hard question to consider. For raw numbers I evened a few things out that made the math a little easier because of the amount of variables involved. First, this math assumes 70hp per shot (even though the base of the TAC has a higher base Second, assumed 480 rpm RoF on both because that is what I can do and I've seen very few (only \|--Shaze--\| so far) prove they can get above 480 consistent enough to do it for a full 2 seconds. Plus 480 is 120bpm and divides into seconds well (8 shots per second) Third, to make the amount of damage per second and min level better or in even seconds, I assumed reload 2 skill applied. This is because I want to say 16 shots per 2 seconds on both, but the TAC has 18 shots, so 2 additional shots at the same RoF would add 1/4 of a second. Knocking the reload time of the TAC from 3 seconds to 2.82 seconds makes the time between shooting mags 5 seconds even. So 18 shots every 5 seconds or so. Forth, cool down assumes operation 5 on the SCR, which takes total cool down from 6 seconds to 4.5 seconds. Here are the numbers. SCR theoretical DPS Average using 70 hp per shot. At 480 rpm 16 shots in 2 seconds Reload 2.5 seconds Pause for 2 seconds (remaining cool down) rince repeat 16 shots every 6.5 seconds = 1120 147 shots per min 10,338 hp per min 173 hp average per second over a full minute TAC theoretical DPS Average using 70 hp per shot. At 480 18 shots in 2.12 second 2.82 second reload 2 done to give average of 18 shots per 5 seconds. 18 shots every 5 seconds = 1260 216 shots per min 15,120 hp per min 252 hp average per second Now what is impossible to account for is the fact that I can fire for 2 seconds with the SCR, wait for 1.5 to 2 seconds and get 4 to 8 additional shots off before the TAC is finished reloading. If we were to both survive the initial 'mag' of fire, I would have the advantage on the follow up. I could also fire 16 and press and hold one more time, and fire a full charge shot as my 17th shot to deal the final blow (though I would have to wait a little over 3 seconds to avoid over heat). But theoretically by backloading my chargeshot I could deal an additional 175 hp (it's 2.5 multiplier right?) while he is reloading. Some other things I found when testing different tempos or rhythm divisions that may interest some SCR users. -Did you know the lighter you press R1, the more shots you can get out? Makes since after thinking about it, because the shot is a press release, if you press hard, you've pressed longer, a slight tap allows more cool down time between shots. I noticed this when trying to find the perfect timing for continuous fire. Pressing the button as I normally do, I was able to fire all 45 rounds at a tempo of 69bpm using 8th notes. By pressing and releasing the button as lightly as possible I was able to get this up to 84 bpm and fire all 45 rounds consecutively without over heating! -Rolling 8th note triplets overheated 2 shots less than 16th notes, so only able to get out 14 rounds without overheating, but overheated about half a second later. 8th note triplets at 120bpm translates to about 360 rpm. So if you are a player that is only managing a RoF of 360, you are 2 rounds short of what someone that can go 480. At then end of the day I guess this one was obvious, but seeing it kind of hit home with the argument of heat per round instead of heat per second. Us fast figure guys have what could amount to a 200+HP per engagement advantage if you take into account prof and damage mods over a player with equal SP and gear but no Wheaties for breakfast. -Quick burst followed by a long pause within the same second will allow for more shots over time. This one is a little harder to explain with out explaining a few core rhythms, but I will try. A 'Triplet' is three evenly spaced beats in the place of 2. A lesson 25 is similar, but the three notes are played faster up front leaving a longer pause before playing the next set. (it's 2 16th notes followed by an 8th note) So lets say this represents an 8th note triplet followed by a 1/4note rest - .\| .\| .\| } And lets say this represents a lesson 25 followed by a 1/4 note rest - ,\|,\| ,\| } Rolling triplets in that pattern for the duration of the mag will net you 36 shots before overheat Rolling lesson 25s in that pattern for the duration of the mag will net you 39 shots before overheat. The lesson here is that the quicker the burst, the faster the cool down, though we are really only talking fractions of a second better. YouTube
CUSE TOWN333 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1317	Posted - 2014.09.03 20:27:00 - [124] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Rei Shepherd wrote: -The higher efficiency you talk about, does that take into the account that the weapon can overheat, because quite frankly if say an assault rifle deals 450 damage per second while it has a clip that can maintain this damage for 6 seconds and a SCR would deal 450 damage per second but can do this for 2 seconds, then what is its overheat purpose ? kick yourself to the floor while yer assaulting someone? -the rof change will just severly hit None-turbo users as we now might have overlap in shots, turbo controller users are not gonna be affected as they do not need to think much when firing and just get the max dps at all times, where fingers are quite allot less perfect and can mess up. I would propose to Fix the Turbo controller issue first, then see if any of the rifles, you say that more are used with Turbo, then why not FIX that first, level the playing field and then balance the weapons ? It seems a bit counter productive to fix and lower rof on weapons based on turbo controller use, wouldnt it be easier to fox turbo abuse and then see how all the weapons work ? You are never going to balance the weapons when 1 person gets shot with turbo and the other not, but balance it as if it wasn't used with turbo, afterwards, the turbo guy will still have the same advantage as before. When he talks about efficiency he means in match effectiveness, the ScR is getting higher KDR and lower kill times than the other weapons, this is because it's a front loaded weapon. The ScR works by doing large amounts of damage for a short period of time, they bsing incapacitated due to overheat constraints. But this creates an operational problem. The overheat is only a problem if you can't kill your opponent before you reach that overheat. In any other scenario, you've already killed that guy so what difference does it matter? Now alot of scrambler rifle user rebuke this by saying, but as soon as you put it against 2 people it's balanced. Which is a biased arguement, since their is just an equal chance their will only be one of them and two of you. Furthermore most weapons would look underpowered/balanced when pitched against 2 enemies. That's kinda the point of teamwork. Anyway I'm starting to digress, you say it balanced against 2 people, which means in order to reliably beat an ScR user of average skill, you need 2 people of average skill weilding a different set of weapons. One as cannon fodder and one to finish you off. So what happens when 8 memebers of your team run a scrambler rifle, you need 8 pairs to engage them, aka the entire enemy team, which bearing in mind their are still 8 people on your team left running around creates a serious force imbalance. We infact end up with a similar situation that tankers were in, if takes more than 1 person to reliably defeat another you get a force inbalance. Now another common rebuttal is, but there is more armour tankers than shield tankers, now whole this fact is currently true, both your self and I are aware that was never always the case, in fact shields have still being paying for that since the armour buff. But here's the thing if we look at the new Projectile profile damage of -15/+15, if shields become the most preferred tank type again, is it fair that the CR gets a damage buff in order to deal with the over popularity of shields? No? So why is it fair to give such a bonus to the ScR? Finally people use the, it's the most skilled weapon in the game, you and I both know that's a barefaced lie, the Scrambler has similar behaviour to the other 3 rifles types, their is no travel time, their is no lower accuracy or smaller shots that are more likely to miss, nothing. The only thing skillful about the ScR is not overheating but getting close to doing so. In my opinion the ScR needs a DPS only marginally better than the AR, (460 probably) and slightly slower overheat. This still gives enough DOT to kill most suits before the overheat, but skill comes intomthe equation alot more. The weapon also becomes less useful in CQC because with the low accuracy enviroment the overheat becomes a much mkre severly limiting factor. I would achieve this by nerfing both DPS and Damage to around 8 shots per second (8.45 to be precise) and the relevamt damage, 58 per shot. thats because a high alpha front loaded weapon in public contracts against opponents in stater suits with low HP means yes it is going to kill those people fast. but in PC gamemodes were people have high HP the scrambler rifle has a hard time killing before over heat. so how do you balance a gun based on one gamemode that will make it useless in a different gamemode. shouldn't the sample data be collected from both gamemodes? KEQ diplomat/ intel /GC officer
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3441	Posted - 2014.09.03 21:57:00 - [125] - Quote CUSE TOWN333 wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Rei Shepherd wrote: -The higher efficiency you talk about, does that take into the account that the weapon can overheat, because quite frankly if say an assault rifle deals 450 damage per second while it has a clip that can maintain this damage for 6 seconds and a SCR would deal 450 damage per second but can do this for 2 seconds, then what is its overheat purpose ? kick yourself to the floor while yer assaulting someone? -the rof change will just severly hit None-turbo users as we now might have overlap in shots, turbo controller users are not gonna be affected as they do not need to think much when firing and just get the max dps at all times, where fingers are quite allot less perfect and can mess up. I would propose to Fix the Turbo controller issue first, then see if any of the rifles, you say that more are used with Turbo, then why not FIX that first, level the playing field and then balance the weapons ? It seems a bit counter productive to fix and lower rof on weapons based on turbo controller use, wouldnt it be easier to fox turbo abuse and then see how all the weapons work ? You are never going to balance the weapons when 1 person gets shot with turbo and the other not, but balance it as if it wasn't used with turbo, afterwards, the turbo guy will still have the same advantage as before. When he talks about efficiency he means in match effectiveness, the ScR is getting higher KDR and lower kill times than the other weapons, this is because it's a front loaded weapon. The ScR works by doing large amounts of damage for a short period of time, they bsing incapacitated due to overheat constraints. But this creates an operational problem. The overheat is only a problem if you can't kill your opponent before you reach that overheat. In any other scenario, you've already killed that guy so what difference does it matter? Now alot of scrambler rifle user rebuke this by saying, but as soon as you put it against 2 people it's balanced. Which is a biased arguement, since their is just an equal chance their will only be one of them and two of you. Furthermore most weapons would look underpowered/balanced when pitched against 2 enemies. That's kinda the point of teamwork. Anyway I'm starting to digress, you say it balanced against 2 people, which means in order to reliably beat an ScR user of average skill, you need 2 people of average skill weilding a different set of weapons. One as cannon fodder and one to finish you off. So what happens when 8 memebers of your team run a scrambler rifle, you need 8 pairs to engage them, aka the entire enemy team, which bearing in mind their are still 8 people on your team left running around creates a serious force imbalance. We infact end up with a similar situation that tankers were in, if takes more than 1 person to reliably defeat another you get a force inbalance. Now another common rebuttal is, but there is more armour tankers than shield tankers, now whole this fact is currently true, both your self and I are aware that was never always the case, in fact shields have still being paying for that since the armour buff. But here's the thing if we look at the new Projectile profile damage of -15/+15, if shields become the most preferred tank type again, is it fair that the CR gets a damage buff in order to deal with the over popularity of shields? No? So why is it fair to give such a bonus to the ScR? Finally people use the, it's the most skilled weapon in the game, you and I both know that's a barefaced lie, the Scrambler has similar behaviour to the other 3 rifles types, their is no travel time, their is no lower accuracy or smaller shots that are more likely to miss, nothing. The only thing skillful about the ScR is not overheating but getting close to doing so. In my opinion the ScR needs a DPS only marginally better than the AR, (460 probably) and slightly slower overheat. This still gives enough DOT to kill most suits before the overheat, but skill comes intomthe equation alot more. The weapon also becomes less useful in CQC because with the low accuracy enviroment the overheat becomes a much mkre severly limiting factor. I would achieve this by nerfing both DPS and Damage to around 8 shots per second (8.45 to be precise) and the relevamt damage, 58 per shot. thats because a high alpha front loaded weapon in public contracts against opponents in stater suits with low HP means yes it is going to kill those people fast. but in PC gamemodes were people have high HP the scrambler rifle has a hard time killing before over heat. so how do you balance a gun based on one gamemode that will make it useless in a different gamemode. shouldn't the sample data be collected from both gamemodes? Good Point, but prehaps the question should be, why are so many people stacking eHP? PC is considerably less tactical than the Master Race would have you believe. Only the OP fits are used in PC. Once EVERYTHING is balanced, the ScR will also be balanced. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1249	Posted - 2014.09.03 23:28:00 - [126] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: . . . We certainly don't want to overnerf this weapon, just tweak it. ROF changes seem to hit both dps and turbo controllers. What could be an acceptable reduction in ROF? While ROF change would seem the first choice to tune down the autofires / turbo controllers, there lies a trap. Having a ROF cap can easily make the weapon unstable, not firing when supposed to. I dare to claim that the instablility Mr Ratamaq is reporting for Tac AR is caused by having a ROF cap. (that could be avoided by making game 'remember' those too fast trigger presses and fire at first moment, but that could make weapon too easy to use. Or maybe not). INSTEAD The autofires should be handled 'softly' by making too rapid shots extremely wild, totally uncontrollable. In that solution the autofire would have advantage only in point blank range (meaning 1, a ***** slap range). Then both skilled players and the most extreme autofire tweakers could find the optimal firing rate without sacrificing the accuracy too much. Think it as "optimal ROF" as if optimal range. People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4072	Posted - 2014.09.04 00:37:00 - [127] - Quote Problem I see is people are worried about the modded controllers and not realizing the macro's kbm's can use are even better. Doesn't matter what RoF you put it at they will get the most out of it...and will fire all shots without overheating it with a macro. Set macro for maximum shots before overheat...call it good. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
CUSE TOWN333 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1333	Posted - 2014.09.04 00:38:00 - [128] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: CUSE TOWN333 wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Rei Shepherd wrote: -The higher efficiency you talk about, does that take into the account that the weapon can overheat, because quite frankly if say an assault rifle deals 450 damage per second while it has a clip that can maintain this damage for 6 seconds and a SCR would deal 450 damage per second but can do this for 2 seconds, then what is its overheat purpose ? kick yourself to the floor while yer assaulting someone? -the rof change will just severly hit None-turbo users as we now might have overlap in shots, turbo controller users are not gonna be affected as they do not need to think much when firing and just get the max dps at all times, where fingers are quite allot less perfect and can mess up. I would propose to Fix the Turbo controller issue first, then see if any of the rifles, you say that more are used with Turbo, then why not FIX that first, level the playing field and then balance the weapons ? It seems a bit counter productive to fix and lower rof on weapons based on turbo controller use, wouldnt it be easier to fox turbo abuse and then see how all the weapons work ? You are never going to balance the weapons when 1 person gets shot with turbo and the other not, but balance it as if it wasn't used with turbo, afterwards, the turbo guy will still have the same advantage as before. When he talks about efficiency he means in match effectiveness, the ScR is getting higher KDR and lower kill times than the other weapons, this is because it's a front loaded weapon. The ScR works by doing large amounts of damage for a short period of time, they bsing incapacitated due to overheat constraints. But this creates an operational problem. The overheat is only a problem if you can't kill your opponent before you reach that overheat. In any other scenario, you've already killed that guy so what difference does it matter? Now alot of scrambler rifle user rebuke this by saying, but as soon as you put it against 2 people it's balanced. Which is a biased arguement, since their is just an equal chance their will only be one of them and two of you. Furthermore most weapons would look underpowered/balanced when pitched against 2 enemies. That's kinda the point of teamwork. Anyway I'm starting to digress, you say it balanced against 2 people, which means in order to reliably beat an ScR user of average skill, you need 2 people of average skill weilding a different set of weapons. One as cannon fodder and one to finish you off. So what happens when 8 memebers of your team run a scrambler rifle, you need 8 pairs to engage them, aka the entire enemy team, which bearing in mind their are still 8 people on your team left running around creates a serious force imbalance. We infact end up with a similar situation that tankers were in, if takes more than 1 person to reliably defeat another you get a force inbalance. Now another common rebuttal is, but there is more armour tankers than shield tankers, now whole this fact is currently true, both your self and I are aware that was never always the case, in fact shields have still being paying for that since the armour buff. But here's the thing if we look at the new Projectile profile damage of -15/+15, if shields become the most preferred tank type again, is it fair that the CR gets a damage buff in order to deal with the over popularity of shields? No? So why is it fair to give such a bonus to the ScR? Finally people use the, it's the most skilled weapon in the game, you and I both know that's a barefaced lie, the Scrambler has similar behaviour to the other 3 rifles types, their is no travel time, their is no lower accuracy or smaller shots that are more likely to miss, nothing. The only thing skillful about the ScR is not overheating but getting close to doing so. In my opinion the ScR needs a DPS only marginally better than the AR, (460 probably) and slightly slower overheat. This still gives enough DOT to kill most suits before the overheat, but skill comes intomthe equation alot more. The weapon also becomes less useful in CQC because with the low accuracy enviroment the overheat becomes a much mkre severly limiting factor. I would achieve this by nerfing both DPS and Damage to around 8 shots per second (8.45 to be precise) and the relevamt damage, 58 per shot. thats because a high alpha front loaded weapon in public contracts against opponents in stater suits with low HP means yes it is going to kill those people fast. but in PC gamemodes were people have high HP the scrambler rifle has a hard time killing before over heat. so how do you balance a gun based on one gamemode that will make it useless in a different gamemode. shouldn't the sample data be collected from both gamemodes? Good Point, but prehaps the question should be, why are so many people stacking eHP? PC is considerably less tactical than the Master Race would have you believe. Only the OP fits are used in PC. Once EVERYTHING is balanced, the ScR will also be balanced. if only the OP fits are used in PC then why is the scrambler rifle rarely used??? KEQ diplomat/ intel /GC officer
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4072	Posted - 2014.09.04 00:41:00 - [129] - Quote I've suggested before that the SCR is a skill shot weapon that is meant for long range engagements. Why does the hipfire remain without more kick? B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
1st Lieutenant Tiberius 0uter.Heaven 2234	Posted - 2014.09.04 00:48:00 - [130] - Quote CUSE TOWN333 wrote: if only the OP fits are used in PC then why is the scrambler rifle rarely used??? I am the 1% :D The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven

Benjamin Ciscko Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3082	Posted - 2014.09.04 01:49:00 - [131] - Quote CUSE TOWN333 wrote: if only the OP fits are used in PC then why is the scrambler rifle rarely used??? Because of the PC maps... Currently every PC map has a city and on all but the bridge map the is city pretty much always the epicenter of the conflict, and in such close quarters it is not as useful as say a Burst HMG or SG. However if new PC maps are ever introduced that are more open you may see a huge increase in use of weapons like the ScR in PC. Not to say it will be OP but with range being it's strong suit and PC not providing that, that is one of the reasons. Tanker/Logi/Assault
voidfaction Nos Nothi 506	Posted - 2014.09.04 02:15:00 - [132] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Watching the TAR vs Scrambler video and poring over the rifle data, we propose these small tweaks. In most cases, the Gallente rifle family just has overall the worst comparative kick and dispersion so we want to bring them closer to the rest of the rifles. Bear in mind that these are very small tweaks except for the Gallente ones that are heavily underperforming Reduce Hipfire dispersion of Tactical Assault Rifle (TAR) to be closer to the Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Reduce Hipfire Kick of TAR to be closer to Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Increase Hipfire Kick of Scrambler Rifle to be closer to TAR (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Assault rifle (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles (tiny) Reduce Zoomed Dispersion of Gallente Breach Rifles (considerable) Set ROF of both Scrambler and TAR to 600 Increase Hipfire Kick of Rail Rifles on second or more rapid consecutive shot, so full auto will be less accurate in CQC (some) There are no tweaks for the Assault Scrambler as it may be suffering from Armor tanking environment, unless there is a specific reason you can find, there is nothing in the stats that says it should be. WOW!!! Is it April 1st again. If the Tac-AR gets half this I will cry. My favorite weapon will not just be a hardmode weapon for my eWAR scout.. Everytime I think the AR is fine I come to forums to read it is UP. So maybe i'm not as bad as I think I am after al.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6561	Posted - 2014.09.04 02:46:00 - [133] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: I've suggested before that the SCR is a skill shot weapon that is meant for long range engagements. Why does the hipfire remain without more kick? There is a Hipfire Kick increase proposed, just not too big "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

1st Lieutenant Tiberius 0uter.Heaven 2234	Posted - 2014.09.04 02:49:00 - [134] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: I've suggested before that the SCR is a skill shot weapon that is meant for long range engagements. Why does the hipfire remain without more kick? There is a Hipfire Kick increase proposed, just not too big Small steps are a good start bud. Maybe you could even start implementing a few at a time, see how they perform then deploy added tweaks if necessary The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
Cruor Abominare Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 158	Posted - 2014.09.04 04:09:00 - [135] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: stuff How does this help the performance of the standard gallente assault rifle besides a little hipfire kick? That's not going to make the primary variant stop underperforming. Many players swear by the Assault Rifle actually being ok, don't want to do too many things at once. Any splendid ideas? We don't want to do damage changes nor range for the time being. What do you think is the major drawback in the handling of the AR? The major draw back of the AR is a tactical one. You generally don't want to be that close to certain thigns when you're running a suit that uses a light weapon. Shotguns, Knives, and especially HMG's beg for you to get outside of their range. So when you're out and about with your AR trying to be in a range that works for its damage curve, you heppen to get steamrolled by the heavy around the corner. For weapons like the rail/cb/sr its just much easier to stay out of their damage range and still get a reasonable ttk on target. I honestly don't think its a balanceable issue without breaking the weapons, its just a learning curve that the AR is fundamentally a weaker archetype than other weapons. Theres a very good reason why range is so important in warfare.
Cruor Abominare Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 159	Posted - 2014.09.04 10:52:00 - [136] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: I've suggested before that the SCR is a skill shot weapon that is meant for long range engagements. Why does the hipfire remain without more kick? Because of how prevalent and important hipfire is. The Tac is lesson child of this. A model where longer range weapons cannot hipfire correctly doesn't work because of how the game is played. So unless we go back and put every weapon on this model where the longer the range the worse the hipfire, then all you do is put weapons in a bin and say, only use if potato. Even still the map layouts post chromosome would largely mean that half the weapons in the game were pointless even if you did do all those changes. You'd have to rework so much of the game and core mechanics to live in that world.
Michael Arck 5387	Posted - 2014.09.04 10:56:00 - [137] - Quote I just wanted to say, don't hit it hard with the nerf bat. Just adjust that ROF. That's the only problem I had with it. It's ROF pulverized me quickly that I don't have an ample amount of time to react. It's damage indicator, half turn, boom, dead. Archistrategos *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain*
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 221	Posted - 2014.09.04 13:09:00 - [138] - Quote Cruor Abominare wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: I've suggested before that the SCR is a skill shot weapon that is meant for long range engagements. Why does the hipfire remain without more kick? Because of how prevalent and important hipfire is. The Tac is lesson child of this. A model where longer range weapons cannot hipfire correctly doesn't work because of how the game is played. So unless we go back and put every weapon on this model where the longer the range the worse the hipfire, then all you do is put weapons in a bin and say, only use if potato. Even still the map layouts post chromosome would largely mean that half the weapons in the game were pointless even if you did do all those changes. You'd have to rework so much of the game and core mechanics to live in that world. ^Pretty much. 90% of the combat in this game takes place within 10-40m or so. Making semiautomatic rifles practically useless in this range would just marginalize ScRs and make them just as useless as the current TacAR. Just because a weapon can be used at a larger range, does not mean it should be terrible at a closer range. It should be worse than the close range oriented weapons, but not an instalose when it comes across an AR or a CR.
Gabriella Grey Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 142	Posted - 2014.09.04 14:46:00 - [139] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: I've suggested before that the SCR is a skill shot weapon that is meant for long range engagements. Why does the hipfire remain without more kick? If you are going to give a weapon as the scrambler rifle more kick from the hip you need to adjust the other weapons like the combat and assault rifles according with range then if that is the way CCP wants to go with it. Though in all honesty I think the way currently the gun mechanics work is fine, there is no need to re-invent the wheel. *Always Grey Skies*
Gabriella Grey Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 142	Posted - 2014.09.04 14:51:00 - [140] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: I've suggested before that the SCR is a skill shot weapon that is meant for long range engagements. Why does the hipfire remain without more kick? There is a Hipfire Kick increase proposed, just not too big Hip fire isn't something serious for you guys at CCP to deal with on the Scrambler, due to that with the overheat most scrambler rifle users are not trying to tap shots off in CQC, and rarely seem to survive anyway within this range with full auto weapons that reign supreme to it. Pulling a hip fire charged shot out of thin air is no different than pulling a hip fire shot with a sniper rifle, It's just not something really any scrambler rifle user is going to pull off. Their first instinct will be to create distance and find cover. *Always Grey Skies*

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2532	Posted - 2014.09.04 14:55:00 - [141] - Quote the solution, it seems, would be to make close-in weapons suffer less from recoil so they can be hipfired stably, allowing better rounds-on-target. This logic needs not be applied futher to the HMG. It's the exception to this supposition because it's utterly lethal in close. Further, addressing the range issue, I have noticed that from closed-beta onward CCP has been taught that the playerbase wants shorter-range engagements. The weapons we had before Uprising all had longer range (and despie whining to the contrary, everyone could still outrange the HMG) but people cried out that the ranges were too long,. it was unfair, et al. We even see some of it today with people screaming that the rail rifle is OP because of the range it's capable of hitting at. The range used to be the scream point of the laser rifle, to the point where everyone said it was OP until it ate the nerf hammer to the face. I'd never had a problem with it (as I always used the armor tanked version of the Heavy suits) but it was largely the range + overheat that always got it screamed about. People have been bitching about sniper and forge ranges for years. The Sniper ranges were never a problem (except for certain map glitches) because CCP had not yet fixed it so the game only rendered enemies in your weapon range (this is why no one can find a goddamn thale except another thale) and then suddenly certain snipers became untouchable. Same went for forge guns. But realistically the reason why ranges are so tight was because early in the game certain parties made it their mission in life to have certain weapons (because only scrubs use long range stuff instead of the bunny hopping strafe dance) nerfed into uselessness. So now we have a future war game where the only hand rifle that shoots past 80-meters is a futuristic hunting rifle. Because the player base demanded that fights be brought in tighter, so they could do the weird little wiggle,and not get taken by surprise by the guy on the roof 150 meters out with the laser rifle. The Laser Rifle used to be a fair analog to the sniper rifle rangewise. Not as good, obviously, but still. It was nice. I never got it past basic, and I still suck with it to this day.
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 4056	Posted - 2014.09.04 15:55:00 - [142] - Quote Ya know that this change will aswell mean that you get less shots of before overheating? Cause its head build up per sec and that means if you are trigger happy you get less shots off before your gun is going to overheat. They say when you die you see a white light which then forms the line of: "GAME OVER! PLEASE INSERT COIN"
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 225	Posted - 2014.09.04 22:22:00 - [143] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: Ya know that this change will aswell mean that you get less shots of before overheating? Cause its head build up per sec and that means if you are trigger happy you get less shots off before your gun is going to overheat. On the other hand however, we will be able to pace our shots better, rather than be limited by how many shots we can output before x seconds.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3451	Posted - 2014.09.04 23:06:00 - [144] - Quote CUSE TOWN333 wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: CUSE TOWN333 wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Rei Shepherd wrote: -The higher efficiency you talk about, does that take into the account that the weapon can overheat, because quite frankly if say an assault rifle deals 450 damage per second while it has a clip that can maintain this damage for 6 seconds and a SCR would deal 450 damage per second but can do this for 2 seconds, then what is its overheat purpose ? kick yourself to the floor while yer assaulting someone? -the rof change will just severly hit None-turbo users as we now might have overlap in shots, turbo controller users are not gonna be affected as they do not need to think much when firing and just get the max dps at all times, where fingers are quite allot less perfect and can mess up. I would propose to Fix the Turbo controller issue first, then see if any of the rifles, you say that more are used with Turbo, then why not FIX that first, level the playing field and then balance the weapons ? It seems a bit counter productive to fix and lower rof on weapons based on turbo controller use, wouldnt it be easier to fox turbo abuse and then see how all the weapons work ? You are never going to balance the weapons when 1 person gets shot with turbo and the other not, but balance it as if it wasn't used with turbo, afterwards, the turbo guy will still have the same advantage as before. When he talks about efficiency he means in match effectiveness, the ScR is getting higher KDR and lower kill times than the other weapons, this is because it's a front loaded weapon. The ScR works by doing large amounts of damage for a short period of time, they bsing incapacitated due to overheat constraints. But this creates an operational problem. The overheat is only a problem if you can't kill your opponent before you reach that overheat. In any other scenario, you've already killed that guy so what difference does it matter? Now alot of scrambler rifle user rebuke this by saying, but as soon as you put it against 2 people it's balanced. Which is a biased arguement, since their is just an equal chance their will only be one of them and two of you. Furthermore most weapons would look underpowered/balanced when pitched against 2 enemies. That's kinda the point of teamwork. Anyway I'm starting to digress, you say it balanced against 2 people, which means in order to reliably beat an ScR user of average skill, you need 2 people of average skill weilding a different set of weapons. One as cannon fodder and one to finish you off. So what happens when 8 memebers of your team run a scrambler rifle, you need 8 pairs to engage them, aka the entire enemy team, which bearing in mind their are still 8 people on your team left running around creates a serious force imbalance. We infact end up with a similar situation that tankers were in, if takes more than 1 person to reliably defeat another you get a force inbalance. Now another common rebuttal is, but there is more armour tankers than shield tankers, now whole this fact is currently true, both your self and I are aware that was never always the case, in fact shields have still being paying for that since the armour buff. But here's the thing if we look at the new Projectile profile damage of -15/+15, if shields become the most preferred tank type again, is it fair that the CR gets a damage buff in order to deal with the over popularity of shields? No? So why is it fair to give such a bonus to the ScR? Finally people use the, it's the most skilled weapon in the game, you and I both know that's a barefaced lie, the Scrambler has similar behaviour to the other 3 rifles types, their is no travel time, their is no lower accuracy or smaller shots that are more likely to miss, nothing. The only thing skillful about the ScR is not overheating but getting close to doing so. In my opinion the ScR needs a DPS only marginally better than the AR, (460 probably) and slightly slower overheat. This still gives enough DOT to kill most suits before the overheat, but skill comes intomthe equation alot more. The weapon also becomes less useful in CQC because with the low accuracy enviroment the overheat becomes a much mkre severly limiting factor. I would achieve this by nerfing both DPS and Damage to around 8 shots per second (8.45 to be precise) and the relevamt damage, 58 per shot. thats because a high alpha front loaded weapon in public contracts against opponents in stater suits with low HP means yes it is going to kill those people fast. but in PC gamemodes were people have high HP the scrambler rifle has a hard time killing before over heat. so how do you balance a gun based on one gamemode that will make it useless in a different gamemode. shouldn't the sample data be collected from both gamemodes? Good Point, but prehaps the question should be, why are so many people stacking eHP? PC is considerably less tactical than the Master Race would have you believe. Only the OP fits are used in PC. Once EVERYTHING is balanced, the ScR will also be balanced. if only the OP fits are used in PC then why is the scrambler rifle rarely used??? The last PC match I particpated in most people had over 900 eHP, the excetion being scous who 700 eHP. This requires a greater than 60% accuracy rating in order to kill most suits. Which when everyone is superstrafing like a pinball stuck between two bumpers, isn't easy. It's not a case of the ScR being OP, it's a case of their being more OP things out there. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Gabriella Grey Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 142	Posted - 2014.09.04 23:28:00 - [145] - Quote I agree with Monkey Mac about this. If CCP wants to see what things are truly broken in the game and could use some serious fixing, they only but need to look in PC. In PC matches players use the most broken mechanics to get the upper hand over the next player. It would be great of an CCP Dev that is responsible for balance go undercover in a PC match. They will see everything that is seriously keeping the game from progressing. There they will find how broken heavies toting sniper rifles are, what better ways can they have it for all weapons to be useful, and why suits need limitations/penalties as to what they can cross fit with certain suits and weapons. Every scout is a slayer in PC, and intel roles along with dropships are easily rendered useless due to the fact that most of the player population that participate in planetary conquest see little to no value in them. I think this is what also makes public and factional games more fun because you can use the things that many laugh at in PC, yet there is the unknown factor. The players on each side who maybe new to the game, or the players who are not benefiting your side from winning. *Always Grey Skies*
Monty Mole Clone Shiv M 206	Posted - 2014.09.05 02:11:00 - [146] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: It's not a case of the ScR being OP, it's a case of their being more OP things out there. you really need to make up your mind so whats more op than the scrambler and when can we see a fair assessment on those weapons? lets just burn this motherfucker down pew pew goes my scram rifle zap zap goes my scram pistol
Rorian Gray HavoK Core RISE of LEGION 92	Posted - 2014.09.05 04:29:00 - [147] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Just thinking out loud, but what if the heat increased at a higher rate the faster you shoot it? So, for example, it takes 100 "units" to reach overheat. Staggered shots are about 5-10 each. Very fast panic shooting is like 10-15, and inhuman turbo speed is like 20-25 a shot. Don't take the numbers seriously, but just get the idea. Also, I was wondering about reducing the base damage but increasing the charge multiplier a lot. Just a thought. Also agree that heat should be exponential with actual rate of fire, to balance the high RoF of the weapon. Was about to suggest the same. Someone above has suggested that the current mechanic was a technical design decision because the console could not handle heat calculations fast enough to address them on a per-shot basis. I'm hoping that's not the case and it can be done that way, but if not, I think the same effect could be implemented a different way. Say the base heat buildup over time was increased further so that it was more challenging to get a kill before overheating. I don't want to suggest it should be impossible, but it should be dangerous to attempt. This should be offset by dissipating heat faster when the gun is cooler than when it is at near-overheat. To be effective, it would be necessary to sample the current heat level rather frequently, but I think it would be tens of times per second or less, instead of hundreds of calculations per second needed to add heat per-shot. Adjusting how the heat buildup is calculated so that heat buildup stops promptly after firing stops would also be needed if it is not already sufficient. I'm hoping that suggestion can be implemented as a hot-fix as the basic mechanics already exist, and it would encourage more tactical use of the weapon while encouraging a general drop in total ScR damage during a match. For the future, say Legion or a someday-maybe release of new DUST code, I think it would be even better to implement overheat as a chance-based system, where the gun is just more likely to jam when it's fired hot and the user has to decide when to take risks. If RoF still needs to be changed, I think it should be done in such a fashion as to avoid penalizing non-turbo users as much as possible. I know there are a lot of other factors, but it seems like heat should be used to limit DPS, and the RoF only capped if heat cannot be calculated fast enough to react to rapid fire.
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 226	Posted - 2014.09.05 06:58:00 - [148] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: It's not a case of the ScR being OP, it's a case of their being more OP things out there. You think there are more OP things than the ScR, but yet you want to cut the DPS of the ScR by almost 60%? (I remember you saying the RoF should be cut to 365 and the damage to 56, which is just insane, because those are basically Ion Pistol stats) Do you want to Nerf the things more OP than the ScR by 75%? Because a Combat Rifle that does 6 damage per shot sounds fine with me... Lol. Your idea of balance is a complete joke.
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1757	Posted - 2014.09.05 07:26:00 - [149] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: The last PC match I particpated in most people had over 900 eHP, the excetion being scous who 700 eHP. This requires a greater than 60% accuracy rating in order to kill most suits. Which when everyone is superstrafing like a pinball stuck between two bumpers, isn't easy. It's not a case of the ScR being OP, it's a case of their being more OP things out there. So what is it now? First you advocate to get the SCR nerfed to kingdome come, like 368 rof or something ridiculous, now you come here and say well now i need to hit 60% of my shots to drop a proto, something we all know, if you miss a few rounds, its overheat followed by death, but hooboy, werent you like telling me how "EASY" the SCR is to use? So if the gun is so easy to use, why is it hard to use it during a PC match now, all of a sudden? I mean you keep trying to tell me it does not require any skill to use this weapons..... What do you want next ? Nerf movement? people need to stand still when they fire, so you can hit em easier? I do agree on the comment that there is a whole lot of more OP things out there then the SCR, but i tought you wanted it nerfed because it was more OP then a Heavy with a Six Kin and dual reppers in his back. Seriously dude, make up your mind. Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Blacklight (PS4)"
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1758	Posted - 2014.09.05 07:52:00 - [150] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Good Point, but prehaps the question should be, why are so many people stacking eHP? PC is considerably less tactical than the Master Race would have you believe. Only the OP fits are used in PC. Once EVERYTHING is balanced, the ScR will also be balanced. Then perhaps start balancing everything else, because the SCR is the only well balanced weapon in this game, but when you compare someone with good skills and 40+m SP, 900+ ehp to go up against 300 ehp militia fits with 1-3m sp and derp aim you know it is not just the weapon that causes theses new people to die by the bushes. To explain why everyone is stacking EHP in PC, while i don't even play it, its because most are all very skilled player and winning any engagement or any 2 vs 1 comes down to your skill, your reaction time and your health. If going 1 on 1, and your skill is the same, and your reaction speed is the same, the person with the highest EHP will win every encounter, its that simple, even having the drop on someone that extra EHP will allow you to turn 180 and kill him before he depletes your ehp and very skilled people require less tactics to steamroll through enemies, because why use tactics if you can drop them with just gungame. This also leads to why SCR isnt used much in competition play, the SCR has a semi random element in its core, one you cannot count on to work when you need it the most. When i played in the Squad Cup, everyone ran Brick Logi's and AR's, i thought about running the SCR but i knew it would put me at too much a disadvantage, so i even went with the ASCR, the gun we all know to be very bad, but it was better then freezing up with an overheat at a critical moment. I am perplexed this needs to be explained.... Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Blacklight (PS4)"

ratamaq doc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 875	Posted - 2014.09.05 17:23:00 - [151] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: ratamaq doc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Watching the TAR vs Scrambler video and poring over the rifle data, we propose these small tweaks. In most cases, the Gallente rifle family just has overall the worst comparative kick and dispersion so we want to bring them closer to the rest of the rifles. Bear in mind that these are very small tweaks except for the Gallente ones that are heavily underperforming Reduce Hipfire dispersion of Tactical Assault Rifle (TAR) to be closer to the Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Reduce Hipfire Kick of TAR to be closer to Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Increase Hipfire Kick of Scrambler Rifle to be closer to TAR (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Assault rifle (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles (tiny) Reduce Zoomed Dispersion of Gallente Breach Rifles (considerable) Set ROF of both Scrambler and TAR to 600 Increase Hipfire Kick of Rail Rifles on second or more rapid consecutive shot, so full auto will be less accurate in CQC (some) There are no tweaks for the Assault Scrambler as it may be suffering from Armor tanking environment, unless there is a specific reason you can find, there is nothing in the stats that says it should be. Sweat, thanks for watching! I hope the increase to 600 rpm on the TAC fixes the misfire issue I tried to point out. The rest of the changes look good as well. I'll do a follow up video if these changes are made to compare. If you are offering, why not a Rail Rifle vs Breach AR comparison, and a Burst Rifle to Combat Rifle, and the crowning achievement, Assault Rifles vs each other. I would love to see what a veteran player thinks of each of these comparisons. . As requested. CR vs BAR. Hope it's not too late. http://youtu.be/qqiWBB6gWXw YouTube
Coleman Gray Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 1186	Posted - 2014.09.05 23:34:00 - [152] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Stickied and edited Thanks for the input. The fact of the matter is that the weapon's efficiency is considerably higher than the rest of the rifle population. Those rifles are also measured against Public matches so doesn't create a comparison bias. Turbo controllers, can be used for more than just the Scrambler, so the numbers should not be biased due to that It is a skill weapon, for sure, which explains why it is less used than the other rifles. I also believe, that even with a majority of the playerbase Armor tanking, it is going to be even more efficient through the shield module improvements we are proposing, after swaying more players over to Shield Tanking. We certainly don't want to overnerf this weapon, just tweak it. ROF changes seem to hit both dps and turbo controllers. What could be an acceptable reduction in ROF? Only thing that needs tweaking is the weapon efficiency barely changing at all, same for the RR. Please please look into them, they shouldn't be 90% efficient in CQC If Preparation is half of the battle and knowing is the other half, Then there is no need to fight.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1078	Posted - 2014.09.06 02:00:00 - [153] - Quote Having not read any other post,and not using the ScR as much as others do. How about: -Nerf the ROF of all lazors by 25% -Give a 5% ROF buff per level to Amarr assault/commandos Amarr should be the best with their own tech after all. This idea wasn't very thought out,i was just thinking of ways to cripple scouts and this came to mind. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy Proficiency V. 1900	Posted - 2014.09.06 05:01:00 - [154] - Quote Meee One wrote: Having not read any other post,and not using the ScR as much as others do. How about: -Nerf the ROF of all lazors by 25% -Give a 5% ROF buff per level to Amarr assault/commandos Amarr should be the best with their own tech after all. This idea wasn't very thought out,i was just thinking of ways to cripple scouts and this came to mind. and why shouldn't an Amarr scout use laz0rs? Amarr: Assault V, Scout V, Sentinel V, Commando V, Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3458	Posted - 2014.09.06 09:52:00 - [155] - Quote Monty Mole Clone wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: It's not a case of the ScR being OP, it's a case of their being more OP things out there. you really need to make up your mind so whats more op than the scrambler and when can we see a fair assessment on those weapons? If you look at the DPS Tuning thread, you'll see that after the changes made in DELTA all the other rifles will be balanced. Hopefully What more OP than the ScR is brick tanking, scouts with 700-800 eHP, Assault with just shy of a 1000, Heavies with nearly 1600 eHP, this shouldn't be possible especially with a PRO primary weapon equipped. Biotic modules need serious buffs. We need more hybrid tanking modules We need more support modules. Afterall pretty much any weapon will look UP when you pit it against someone with 2-3x your eHP They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2581	Posted - 2014.09.06 11:23:00 - [156] - Quote Hybrid tanking? There is only shield tanking and armor tanking. Anything else is dual tanking and should be killed with fire. Further, a 1500 HP fatsuit is remarkably squishy under the right kind of enemy action. Plasma cannons and shotguns are almost universally lethal, as is any fight outside 40m.
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3020	Posted - 2014.09.06 12:34:00 - [157] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Monty Mole Clone wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: It's not a case of the ScR being OP, it's a case of their being more OP things out there. you really need to make up your mind so whats more op than the scrambler and when can we see a fair assessment on those weapons? If you look at the DPS Tuning thread, you'll see that after the changes made in DELTA all the other rifles will be balanced. Hopefully What more OP than the ScR is brick tanking, scouts with 700-800 eHP, Assault with just shy of a 1000, Heavies with nearly 1600 eHP, this shouldn't be possible especially with a PRO primary weapon equipped. Biotic modules need serious buffs. We need more hybrid tanking modules We need more support modules. Afterall pretty much any weapon will look UP when you pit it against someone with 2-3x your eHP Hybrid tanking is brick tanking, the only exception being stacking a rack of complex armor plates but the penalties to that most of the time outweigh the HP, specially to scouts and medium. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3460	Posted - 2014.09.06 19:40:00 - [158] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Monty Mole Clone wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: It's not a case of the ScR being OP, it's a case of their being more OP things out there. you really need to make up your mind so whats more op than the scrambler and when can we see a fair assessment on those weapons? If you look at the DPS Tuning thread, you'll see that after the changes made in DELTA all the other rifles will be balanced. Hopefully What more OP than the ScR is brick tanking, scouts with 700-800 eHP, Assault with just shy of a 1000, Heavies with nearly 1600 eHP, this shouldn't be possible especially with a PRO primary weapon equipped. Biotic modules need serious buffs. We need more hybrid tanking modules We need more support modules. Afterall pretty much any weapon will look UP when you pit it against someone with 2-3x your eHP Hybrid tanking is brick tanking, the only exception being stacking a rack of complex armor plates but the penalties to that most of the time outweigh the HP, specially to scouts and medium. No no no, you misunderstand, a hybrid tanking module is the reactive plate. A little armour mixed with a low slot supporting module. Things like Armour + CPU, Armour + CDR, Armour + Reg, Shield + PG, Shield + Codebreaker etc. Those are what I mean by 'hybrid tanking modules'. Secondly I fully agree that 'Brick Tanking' needs to be eliminated, just so long as sensible dual tanking isn't screwed over at the same time. After all is a 510 eHP Min PRO Assault (280 S + 230 A) really OP? There are scouts running round with more eHP than that. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
CommanderBolt Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 1481	Posted - 2014.09.06 23:59:00 - [159] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Watching the TAR vs Scrambler video and poring over the rifle data, we propose these small tweaks. In most cases, the Gallente rifle family just has overall the worst comparative kick and dispersion so we want to bring them closer to the rest of the rifles. Bear in mind that these are very small tweaks except for the Gallente ones that are heavily underperforming Reduce Hipfire dispersion of Tactical Assault Rifle (TAR) to be closer to the Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Reduce Hipfire Kick of TAR to be closer to Scrambler Rifle (considerable) Increase Hipfire Kick of Scrambler Rifle to be closer to TAR (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Assault rifle (tiny) Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles (tiny) Reduce Zoomed Dispersion of Gallente Breach Rifles (considerable) Set ROF of both Scrambler and TAR to 600 Increase Hipfire Kick of Rail Rifles on second or more rapid consecutive shot, so full auto will be less accurate in CQC (some) There are no tweaks for the Assault Scrambler as it may be suffering from Armor tanking environment, unless there is a specific reason you can find, there is nothing in the stats that says it should be. Actually impressed with the set of changes proposed here. The Tac AR is back! -=#[ Gastun's Forge ]#=- MY LIFE FOR AIUR! "I'm wasting away here" - "Get me back into zee fight!
Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 162	Posted - 2014.09.07 16:26:00 - [160] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Stickied and edited Thanks for the input. The fact of the matter is that the weapon's efficiency is considerably higher than the rest of the rifle population. Those rifles are also measured against Public matches so doesn't create a comparison bias. Turbo controllers, can be used for more than just the Scrambler, so the numbers should not be biased due to that It is a skill weapon, for sure, which explains why it is less used than the other rifles. I also believe, that even with a majority of the playerbase Armor tanking, it is going to be even more efficient through the shield module improvements we are proposing, after swaying more players over to Shield Tanking. We certainly don't want to overnerf this weapon, just tweak it. ROF changes seem to hit both dps and turbo controllers. What could be an acceptable reduction in ROF? Haha haha every person you sway to shield tanking becomes meat as far as I'm concerned. My laser rifle WILL DEATH TOUCH YOU ALL Idc of you have over 1k shields (not that you will )I will incinerate you nothing you do will save you from a real amarian. Bring it no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil

Forever ETC Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 766	Posted - 2014.09.07 21:23:00 - [161] - Quote Not sure if this has been mentioned but could the ScR Scope get a zoom buff. I find that when I use the ScR I tend to be in CQC territory due to the fact the zoom is not that great. But if I use a LR I will always stay 70m out because of the great zoom. Maybe this might help keep ScR users off the CQC territory and force them to range. Just thinking that's all... "Your forefathers fought alongside the Empire, it is your choice to follow them or not." Captain Dante to "Forever".
Exodeon Salviej The Phoenix Federation 92	Posted - 2014.09.08 17:29:00 - [162] - Quote The ScR to me is a very tricky weapon. The effectiveness of it is very noticeable when placed up against different eHP's. Sometimes, it'll mow down anything like people are blades of grass, and the ScR is a lawnmower. Other times, it just...doesn't do **, not even to sheilds. For Example: I'll run up on a proto Caldari Suit, usually Logistics, and the sheild damage is simply SO LOW it's not even viable to use. And you'd figure the Caldari Commandos, and Caldari Sentinels would be problematic. For me, everything is easy except for those damn Caldari Logis'. I DON'T GET IT! Another thing I should bring up, and I beleive this is what actually keeps the ScR balanced at this time; The Overheat. When you first get it, the overheat is problematic. The bar fills up just fast enough to ** you over and either let the enemy kill YOU, or the Overheat will do it for them, and give the enemy an assist. But, when you equip it to an Amarr Assault, the overheat suddenly becomes...non-existant, I suppose. Yeah, it increases to the point where you can unload ALMOST half of your entire clip, which...if fired fast enough, can take down a heavy suit. Thirdly, the damage profile...I can't call it off the top of my head without looking up while typing this, but I THINK the damage profile is just WAY too wide sometimes. It'll SHRED sheilds, but once the armor comes into play, it's like a constant trickle...millimeter, by millimeter the armor will go down. Lastly, the dot sight...omg, that dot sight. Just...wow...it sucks SO BAD. The Scrambler Rifle has all of this WONDERFUL, WONDERFUL range, yet it has this dinky little red dot sight that barely zooms in. I personally beleive those red dot sights should be the Assault Variants. And the regulars should have a scope that's a little more powerful. I mean, seriously...look at the GLU-5 Tactical AR, it literally HAS A SCOPE on it. You can zoom in, and everything, and it WORKS...nicely at that. P.S. the fire rate...I personally think the fire rate should be kept in case of panic situations, and for hipfire situations. If the dot sight is changed from the dot sight to a literal scope, then I'm sure the fire rate issue can be resolved as people don't want to be looking at the render detail of someones' suit because they're so close, and it'll also drop down the tracking ability of the ScR. I personally beleive that a lot of the issue is caused BY THE DOT SIGHT, not the fire rate, or anything else. The dot sight makes it a close-range assault weapon. A scope would force people to keep their distance, unless they want to be swiss cheese. Your face is something to shoot, so I will shoot. Don't be offended, I do it to everyone. Commandoooo punch! >:D
Vesta Opalus Kang Lo Holding 24	Posted - 2014.09.08 17:44:00 - [163] - Quote I'm not going to talk about modded controllers, I'll talk about intended use/balance and what I think its general issues are. I have used the scrambler alot and have had it used against me, and I don't think this gun is under or overpowered across the board, however I do think it is imbalanced in many ways. WHA? Yeah, let me go into that some. Its overpowered against shield suits. 130% (I think?) is too much. I have zapped away the entire shield pool of a caldari heavy in one charged shot with this thing. Any shield suit that is actually dedicated to shield tanking can be absolutely <1 sec mauled by this thing. Its overpowered against low-tank suits. Doesnt even need to be shield suits. Any suit with <300-400 health is just food for this thing. Its underpowered against high hp pools, especially armor tanked ones (amar assault/heavy suits/etc). Once the rifle reaches the overheat enforced cutoff of damage output, you have to either wait or switch to sidearm. This means you are inherently at a disadvantage against suits with high hp or heavy armor tank. So we have this odd situation where the gun is both over and under powered depending on what you are doing. I think maybe the gun needs to be evened out a little bit so that its less overwhelming to shield users (you want people to use shield tanking without having to feel like stacking 300+ armor, right?) and more effective against these high hp guys (though personally I would prefer some diminishing returns on hp modules in general to discourage hp stacking) Things I would do: 1. Change damage profile so its not insane. Explosive weapons already had this applied to them because of the crazy killing spree they had a while back, lets do it for scramblers too. The only reason we havent heard more outcry is that almost no one actually shield takes exclusively these days because its suicidal. 2. Add in more weapon kick and a delay between shots. I heard someone say this is a skilled weapon. I disagree. Every other rifle has both more kick and slower shot delay. When I use scrambler rifle, if I hit with that first shot Im going to hit with the 8-10 shots I can crap out after it in under a second, because there is virtually no kick and no delay. There is nothing to manage during firing, you just have to make sure you dont hit overheat, which is trivial. 3. Heck if I know how you are going to make it better against high hp/armor tanks without making the first two problems even worse. Adjusting the profile might help from #1, but maybe this is just cost of doing business of using a scrambler rifle.
Vesta Opalus Kang Lo Holding 24	Posted - 2014.09.08 18:20:00 - [164] - Quote feh.
Kin Cat Another Clone in the Wall 84	Posted - 2014.09.09 11:22:00 - [165] - Quote im not understanding why Rattati is saying "the handling of rifle tweaks is in this thread" and how this relates to the Assault Rifle? As far as I'm concerned his graph tells me there is no plan to buff the regular Duvolle AR so are they going to change the dispersion and hipfire of ALL assault rifles?
Kin Cat Another Clone in the Wall 84	Posted - 2014.09.09 11:27:00 - [166] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Many players swear by the Assault Rifle actually being ok, don't want to do too many things at once. Any splendid ideas? We don't want to do damage changes nor range for the time being. What do you think is the major drawback in the handling of the AR? They are full of it. Most people who use the AR just like the way it handles and are not serious players. Serious players understand that the AR is UP and don't use it. Someone made a thread saying that the AR's theoretical TTK is higher than even the combat rifle The problem is those theoretical bullets are missing the target. So I think if you tweak the dispersion to be a little better, we could see a dramatic improvement And I'm talking about the normal Duvolle, not the variants. I personally could care less what you do with those because i hate them all.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6795	Posted - 2014.09.09 12:50:00 - [167] - Quote I think we have reached the end of the line, thanks for all the feedback, and stay tuned for the Delta numbers. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

1st Lieutenant Tiberius 0uter.Heaven 2240	Posted - 2014.09.09 15:29:00 - [168] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I think we have reached the end of the line, thanks for all the feedback, and stay tuned for the Delta numbers. Glad I could help o7 The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
Right-wing Extremist Nos Nothi 1039	Posted - 2014.09.09 17:13:00 - [169] - Quote David Spd wrote: Anything that injures turbo controllers is good in my eyes. Isn't it possible to actually detect this sort of thing? Unless Ocelot was lying... MGS 1 said he would know if you used a turbo controller. Me and my bro tested that in MGS1. Ocelot DID know. Jaceon Pale-eye. And you shall know me by the sound of Charge SR bullets whizzing by your head as I miss repeatedly.
man- bear pig D3ATH CARD 15	Posted - 2014.09.10 01:45:00 - [170] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: I've suggested before that the SCR is a skill shot weapon that is meant for long range engagements. Why does the hipfire remain without more kick? There is a Hipfire Kick increase proposed, just not too big I'm ok with lowering the ROF. However I don't think it will settle the issue with turbo controllers, they're still getting off a crazy amount of rounds with control on their target. If you add a kick, you need to switch the heat build up to rounds shot. Along with the ROF decrease, it will stop them in their tracks. I bring up the heat build up again because it is madness trying to take someone out with accuracy. I usually start with a charged shot, then a 3-4 round burst. By this point, their shields gone and some of their armor, so they start running. I can get off maybe 3-4 rounds at them evading me, and I hit the over heat. If they're not dead within that time, I've lost them. So a slow, aimed shots I'll get 6-8 and a charged. With the gun the way it is setup, I'm better off running into a close quarters area with a charged round ready, letting it lose on the first enemy I see and them hip firing 12-14 shots as fast as I can at them and I'll usually take them down without over heating, even some sentinels. Why is that the best way to run with this gun? The heat build up is backwards. I'll take a lower ROF, and maybe even a hipfire dispersion, but the best change that will stop every turbo controller is changing the heat build up mechanic.

DozersMouse XIII Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 883	Posted - 2014.09.10 02:17:00 - [171] - Quote my opinion on the SCR being OP is "it's not" I have been running multiple ak.0 assault fits with different rifle/smg's running 3 comp damage mods, 2 enhanced plates, 2 comp reps, 1 enh rep if you think the SCR is OP and have an ak.0 and boundles/sixkin combat rifle (try it) it's OP! if you have AR try a creodron breach and tell me what you think I dont have rail rifle so fill me in CR had prof5 AR had prof5 SCR had prof3 M.A.G. Platinum trophy holder
Andris Kronis Legio DXIV 78	Posted - 2014.09.10 07:37:00 - [172] - Quote ratamaq doc wrote: Here is a video covering quite a bit of what is being talked about here. It turned into a TAC vs SCR video showing the difference in the two. Disclaimer: I am an SCR user. Have been since it released. I'm also a simi auto rifle user in other FPS games. It's my preferred play style there. The only reason I am not an Amarr proto is because I didn't want to get used to the extra rounds. Using the rifle and not overheating is as much about feeling as it is counting. Things covered in this comentary video: -Stats, Cost, and Skill of the TAC vs the SCR. -TAC in action showing it shining in Optimal and falling on it's ass in <30 meters (Some slowmo comparison) -SCR in action showing it shining in all ranges (Also with slow motion comparison) -Outside of game video showing both riflers firing at a near consistent 480 rounds per min using a metronome set at 120bpm with 16th note subdivisions -Slow motion of the TAC misfiring while well under 500 RPM (Bug?) and what I fear would happen if the ROF gets lowered to much on the SCR -EXTREME dispersion difference in both hip fire and ADS between the two (side by side using a commando firing at a wall) -A bad ass drummer in the background. (seriously, this dude is remarkable) I'm going to post this in GD as well, but this seems to be the place for both us SCR lovers and the haters. And for all those claiming that more than 6 trigger pulls per second controlled is not possible, wtf is wrong with you? Eat some Wheaties or something. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuOXdZfHeN8&feature=youtu.be Video is good. Can we get a SCR like scope for the TAC? that would be excellent. (plus some TAC fixes queued up for Hotfix Echo) "Corporation slogan coming to a sig near you"
CommanderBolt Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 1519	Posted - 2014.09.10 23:39:00 - [173] - Quote Right-wing Extremist wrote: David Spd wrote: Anything that injures turbo controllers is good in my eyes. Isn't it possible to actually detect this sort of thing? Unless Ocelot was lying... MGS 1 said he would know if you used a turbo controller. Me and my bro tested that in MGS1. Ocelot DID know. That's because MGS is a work of bloody art! Games that compare are few and far between in my humble opinion. -=#[ Gastun's Forge ]#=- MY LIFE FOR AIUR! "I'm wasting away here" - "Get me back into zee fight!
1st Lieutenant Tiberius 0uter.Heaven 2242	Posted - 2014.09.10 23:43:00 - [174] - Quote I concur MGS is truly a beautiful game. But lets try and stay on topic. Rattati; will further feedback still be available after changes get implemented? It would be a great idea to keep us involved in the balancing process. I will also do my best to give you PC testing of the changes. The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
Dust User KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 599	Posted - 2014.09.11 15:27:00 - [175] - Quote 1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote: I concur MGS is truly a beautiful game. But lets try and stay on topic. MGS has earned the right to derail any thread it deems necessary.
zzZaXxx Vengeance Unbound 503	Posted - 2014.09.11 18:42:00 - [176] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: There are no tweaks for the Assault Scrambler as it may be suffering from Armor tanking environment, unless there is a specific reason you can find, there is nothing in the stats that says it should be. Specific reason: high dispersion, not just armor's prevalence, is limiting the performance of the AScR. When hipfiring and in ADS the accuracy is that of an unbonused AR. If you're looking for some way to help this rifle Rattati, this is it!
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP 966	Posted - 2014.09.11 20:53:00 - [177] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: There are no tweaks for the Assault Scrambler as it may be suffering from Armor tanking environment, unless there is a specific reason you can find, there is nothing in the stats that says it should be. Specific reason: high dispersion, not just armor's prevalence, is limiting the performance of the AScR. When hipfiring and in ADS the accuracy is that of an unbonused AR. If you're looking for some way to help this rifle Rattati, this is it! The dispersion is a little too high for a weapon that is meant to be medium range but it still works well. Increase the base ammo carried by one full clip and it will become a much more viable weapon. With the dispersion and reduction to armor damage, the ammo it takes to put someone down even when firing in short bursts and making sure those bursts are very on target it still goes through ammo like no other and leaves you running for ammo after any engagement that involves more than 2-3 enemies.


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