Anything that injures turbo controllers is good in my eyes.

Isn't it possible to actually detect this sort of thing? Unless Ocelot was lying... MGS 1 said he would know if you used a turbo controller.

Not speaking out of experience or anything, but isn't the controller sending both a hardware and software input message? Is it possible to "block" input that is sending a hardware held message while simultaneously sending multiple software inputs from the same button?


I've been on the receiving end of turbo controllers with scrambler rifles too many times (probably the most obvious weapon to be used with it) and believe me... it isn't fun. Nobody can flinch press R1 THAT fast...

Basically, if you can "block" turbo controllers from doing what they do, that would be fantastic. Please look into doing that.

Stickied and edited

Thanks for the input.

The fact of the matter is that the weapon's efficiency is considerably higher than the rest of the rifle population.

Those rifles are also measured against Public matches so doesn't create a comparison bias.

Turbo controllers, can be used for more than just the Scrambler, so the numbers should not be biased due to that

It is a skill weapon, for sure, which explains why it is less used than the other rifles.

I also believe, that even with a majority of the playerbase Armor tanking, it is going to be even more efficient through the shield module improvements we are proposing, after swaying more players over to Shield Tanking.

We certainly don't want to overnerf this weapon, just tweak it. ROF changes seem to hit both dps and turbo controllers.

What could be an acceptable reduction in ROF?

-The higher efficiency you talk about, does that take into the account that the weapon can overheat, because quite frankly if say an assault rifle deals 450 damage per second while it has a clip that can maintain this damage for 6 seconds and a SCR would deal 450 damage per second but can do this for 2 seconds, then what is its overheat purpose ? kick yourself to the floor while yer assaulting someone?

-the rof change will just severly hit None-turbo users as we now might have overlap in shots, turbo controller users are not gonna be affected as they do not need to think much when firing and just get the max dps at all times, where fingers are quite allot less perfect and can mess up.


I would propose to Fix the Turbo controller issue first, then see if any of the rifles, you say that more are used with Turbo, then why not FIX that first, level the playing field and then balance the weapons ?

It seems a bit counter productive to fix and lower rof on weapons based on turbo controller use, wouldnt it be easier to fox turbo abuse and then see how all the weapons work ?

You are never going to balance the weapons when 1 person gets shot with turbo and the other not, but balance it as if it wasn't used with turbo, afterwards, the turbo guy will still have the same advantage as before.

As long as they don't nerf the RoF too heavily, the only guys seeing the difference will be turbo controllers users. Humans generally can't get over 420 RPM, so if they lower it let's say to 500 RPM (so that guys with a trigger speed above average can still benefit of it), only the turbo controllers will be affected.
And with a fire rate of 500 RPM (if you can reach it), you would have a DPS of around 600HP/s without damage mods, fairly over the assault rifle.
Also keep in mind that the scrambler rifle isn't supposed to be only a rapid firing weapon, you're supposed to use the charge shot, and that's that rifle strength. If you prepare a charge shot, and then press the trigger 7 times during the rest of the second (420RPM), you'll easily get over 800HP/s.
So even with the same DPS than an assault rifle (which requires a huge RoF nerf, won't happen I suppose), there would still be a use to the scrambler. Moreover, the 450 DPS of the AR needs all your bullets to hit, whereas the accuracy of the gun isn't that great, especially when compared to the scrambler rifle

-The higher efficiency you talk about, does that take into the account that the weapon can overheat, because quite frankly if say an assault rifle deals 450 damage per second while it has a clip that can maintain this damage for 6 seconds and a SCR would deal 450 damage per second but can do this for 2 seconds, then what is its overheat purpose ? kick yourself to the floor while yer assaulting someone?

-the rof change will just severly hit None-turbo users as we now might have overlap in shots, turbo controller users are not gonna be affected as they do not need to think much when firing and just get the max dps at all times, where fingers are quite allot less perfect and can mess up.


I would propose to Fix the Turbo controller issue first, then see if any of the rifles, you say that more are used with Turbo, then why not FIX that first, level the playing field and then balance the weapons ?

It seems a bit counter productive to fix and lower rof on weapons based on turbo controller use, wouldnt it be easier to fox turbo abuse and then see how all the weapons work ?

You are never going to balance the weapons when 1 person gets shot with turbo and the other not, but balance it as if it wasn't used with turbo, afterwards, the turbo guy will still have the same advantage as before.

Stickied and edited

Thanks for the input.

The fact of the matter is that the weapon's efficiency is considerably higher than the rest of the rifle population.

Those rifles are also measured against Public matches so doesn't create a comparison bias.

Turbo controllers, can be used for more than just the Scrambler, so the numbers should not be biased due to that

It is a skill weapon, for sure, which explains why it is less used than the other rifles.

I also believe, that even with a majority of the playerbase Armor tanking, it is going to be even more efficient through the shield module improvements we are proposing, after swaying more players over to Shield Tanking.

We certainly don't want to overnerf this weapon, just tweak it. ROF changes seem to hit both dps and turbo controllers.

What could be an acceptable reduction in ROF?

When he talks about efficiency he means in match effectiveness, the ScR is getting higher KDR and lower kill times than the other weapons, this is because it's a front loaded weapon.

The ScR works by doing large amounts of damage for a short period of time, they bsing incapacitated due to overheat constraints. But this creates an operational problem. The overheat is only a problem if you can't kill your opponent before you reach that overheat.

In any other scenario, you've already killed that guy so what difference does it matter?
Now alot of scrambler rifle user rebuke this by saying, but as soon as you put it against 2 people it's balanced.

Which is a biased arguement, since their is just an equal chance their will only be one of them and two of you. Furthermore most weapons would look underpowered/balanced when pitched against 2 enemies. That's kinda the point of teamwork.

Anyway I'm starting to digress, you say it balanced against 2 people, which means in order to reliably beat an ScR user of average skill, you need 2 people of average skill weilding a different set of weapons. One as cannon fodder and one to finish you off. So what happens when 8 memebers of your team run a scrambler rifle, you need 8 pairs to engage them, aka the entire enemy team, which bearing in mind their are still 8 people on your team left running around creates a serious force imbalance.

We infact end up with a similar situation that tankers were in, if takes more than 1 person to reliably defeat another you get a force inbalance. Now another common rebuttal is, but there is more armour tankers than shield tankers, now whole this fact is currently true, both your self and I are aware that was never always the case, in fact shields have still being paying for that since the armour buff.

But here's the thing if we look at the new Projectile profile damage of -15/+15, if shields become the most preferred tank type again, is it fair that the CR gets a damage buff in order to deal with the over popularity of shields? No? So why is it fair to give such a bonus to the ScR?

Finally people use the, it's the most skilled weapon in the game, you and I both know that's a barefaced lie, the Scrambler has similar behaviour to the other 3 rifles types, their is no travel time, their is no lower accuracy or smaller shots that are more likely to miss, nothing. The only thing skillful about the ScR is not overheating but getting close to doing so.

In my opinion the ScR needs a DPS only marginally better than the AR, (460 probably) and slightly slower overheat. This still gives enough DOT to kill most suits before the overheat, but skill comes intomthe equation alot more. The weapon also becomes less useful in CQC because with the low accuracy enviroment the overheat becomes a much mkre severly limiting factor.

I would achieve this by nerfing both DPS and Damage to around 8 shots per second (8.45 to be precise) and the relevamt damage, 58 per shot.

Finally people use the, it's the most skilled weapon in the game, you and I both know that's a barefaced lie, the Scrambler has similar behaviour to the other 3 rifles types, their is no travel time, their is no lower accuracy or smaller shots that are more likely to miss, nothing. The only thing skillful about the ScR is not overheating but getting close to doing so.

Seriously, the 420 human rpm crap again ? thats 7 shots a second, 500 is still only 8 shots, i can do 13 a second, now actually landing shots at 13 a second is gonna be an issue, witch the turbo user has no problems with. But really you can only click 7 times a second ?

you quickly forget that with the SCR you only have a 2 second of operation time to deal your damage, after those 2 seconds its sidearm or overheat, while the AR has ample clip to keep dealing its damage for the next 4 additional seconds.

Basically if you nerf the Scrambler to a maximum of say 16 shots with All skills at level 5 and an amarr Assault suit at lvl V, meaning anyone else using the weapons without those skills is gonna see what 8-10 shots Max, before it overheats, witch in this case means a 1 second of operation time or 620 damage dealt.

Hmm 450 Damage/ second over a period of 6 seconds

or

620 damage for 1 second with 5 seconds of overheat = 103 dps for the guy picking up the weapon for the first time, i dont think there is gonna be a second time.

I am simply concerned that we aren't comparing apples to apples here, a skill focused weapon whose only remaining users were those on the upper end of the skill bell curve would skew the weapon towards being more efficient than it's counterparts, simply because the sample population isn't comparable.

When we use the argument about the 2 vs 1, we mean that if we had another weapon like the Combat rifle in our hands we would still have been able to kill those 2 instead of dying due to a error on use of the SCR, mainly the overheat.
This is nothing to do with weapon balance at all then since this down to your ability to dodge shots or your opponents inability to land them. We can further perpetuate this arguement to say that with enough skill you take on the entire enemy team simultaneously, this doesn't make the weapon you used OP, it makes your enemy absolutely terrible. Being unable to take out 2 people does not make weapon balanced anymore than going 25/0 with an Ion Pistol makes it OP.

Overheat is always an issue that you need to keep in the back of your mind, having to keep track of something put a burden on the user, even if it does not happen.
Yet you assume the CR user does not have to keep an eye on his ever dwindling magazine, or the RR user having to take into account his charge time, most of the weapons have a downpoint that must be monitored the ScR is no more special in that regard. Futhermore your opinion that it is shows bias to your weapon, you are in effect showing you have a vested intrest in maintaining the weapons current effectiveness.

Also about the KDR, less users use the weapon, most users of the SCR are better then average players, so while scrubs don't polute the database with missed shots and less deaths (everyone uses an AR at the start), ofcourse its KDR is gonna be allot higher.
You have data for this? Don't forget the Rifles were all recently given mlt variants which are applied directly to frontline fits, so if we assume amarr is 25% of the population, that's a whole lot of newbies who are now using that weapon which would systematically give you a deluge of unskilled players to even out the data points.

Once again the fact you assume that the ScR is used by only the skilled individuals of this game, raises two points.
Why are there skilled individuals in other weapon discipline?
Why aren't the skilled users also using the other weapons in equal measure?



And yet i can't come close to the things i can pull off with a RR or CR then what i can do with the SCR, yet when i run 87/3 with the CR, not as much as a single mail, but hooboy if i run 60/5 with the SCR, ill have at least 1 or 2 mails about how OP it is.
Maybe you need to reassess your skill level then, you are clearly better at those 2 rifles. Once again your using your circumstantial experience as justification for a weapon. If I go 46/2 with a Bolt Pistol and 25/3 with a SMG is the Bolt Pistol OP? No of course not, but I've just pulled 2 numbers that would say otherwise. Once again your arguement is based upon circumstantial evidence which has no real bearing on the discussion at hand.

Compared to how effortless the CR is to use, the SCR fails short at that by a mile.
Yet my little brother can't use it, but he absolutely wrecks with the AR. The only difference in terms of the two weapons is you get a 2.4 seconds to overheat and the CR gets 3.2 seconds to reload, though bear in mind cooldown on the ScR is faster is you avoid overheating the weapon, reloading is not.

Face it, most skilled people gravitate towards, difficult weapons to use with allot of Alpha Strike damage, most regular players gravitate to the easiest weapons to use.Yet more circumstantial evidence, you have no data to prove this, I however have the following examples that help to disprove this.

BURST HMG - Front Loaded by design currently overused and Overperforming
SHOTGUN - Naturally a front loaded weapon overused and Overperforming

LASER RIFLE - Rear Loaded weapon increasingly uncommon
FORGE GUN - Rear Loaded weapin, only used for tower sniping

Incrementally drop the RoF over a course of hotfixes, until we reach a number that works.
For Delta, start off with 600, 10 rounds per second. A nice number to start from, don't you think?
If that doesn't work, drop it to 540 in Echo , 9 rounds per second.
If that doesn't work, drop it to 480 in Foxtrot, 8 rounds per second.
I very much doubt we will ever have to go below that.

Also make the heat buildup per shot, if possible without a client update. If not possible, enact ASAP.
I never understood why the heat mechanics are all time based in this game. It should all be per shot and percentage based, not time held.

What could be an acceptable reduction in ROF?

Two points:
- I'd guess that the SCR is extremely unpopular with new players. That means the average KDR with an SCR is going to be that of a veteran player while the KDR of a AR will be an average of both old and new players.
- I wouldn't mind a ROF reduction. I don't think the SCR is supposed to be a 'spammable' CQC-weapon, so make a limited ROF a part of the concept. Maybe even increase damage in return.

BTW, remember that a SCR user generally has to sacrifice some tank to be able to fit that weapon. For reference, a PRO SCR uses 92/20 CPU/PG while a PRO CR comes in at 81/8 (source is protofits). Applying a standard conversion of 5 CPU/PG you realize the SCR uses ~59% more fitting space than a CR. Maybe fix that another day if you want to balance the weapon's efficiencies first, but keep it in mind.