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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
2198
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Posted - 2014.09.02 06:17:00 -
[1] - Quote
Add a sticky for ScR discussion.
I don't have the patience or willpower to create a whole post about it but I can definitely answer any data gathering questions you have and hopefully start a discussion
My credentials:
- User of the Amarr Assault and ScR since it was introduced in Uprising 1.0 has been my main suit until i had enough SP to max out my cores before eventually getting 4 other suits (Amarr Sentinel, Gal Scout, Min Scout and Cal Scout) at around 55m SP currently (open beta vet)
- Uses Amarr Assault in Planetary Conquest constantly, more so than any other person I know who plays the game competitively, if there was one I would know but there are few names and especially fewer at this point in time
- I know plenty of dedicated Amarr Assault users who I believe will come to discuss the weapon with you if I ask them to, I'm sure there are plenty who will contribute as well
I know the weapon is pretty goddamn good in Public Contracts but there are more factors in play in terms of that fact than the weapon or suit itself, if you balance for pub games it will kill the weapon competitively and this goes for every weapon. I highly suggest you read and consider this heavily and start this discussion.
If it is balance you are seeking then lets try to find a middle ground where the weapon can coexist nicely in Pub games yet not become worthless compared to other weapons competitively. Stop the vicious Nerf/Buff cycle and start balancing properly, let us try and help.
The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
2209
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Posted - 2014.09.02 15:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:What could be an acceptable reduction in ROF?
I'm not sure about what the exact numbers would be appropriate but as long as the ROF levels present the balance between screwing over turbo controllers and yet allowing human levels of fire is key, I believe.
I've always been an advocate for firing in volleys, charge shot followed by 2 or 3 follow up shots, i don't have the quickest trigger finger but usually these volley shots are when I am able to pump out rounds quite quickly, the only request I have is that if you do implement ROF you do so to counter turbo controller abuse and not doing to the ScR what happened to the Tac Rifle.
It is a semi auto rifle and I rely on it firing as fast and as many times as I can humanly press the trigger, as long as i'm not clicking more times than rounds are coming out of the barrel (which was the issue with Post-nerf TAC) then I think we should be good.
Also I suggest not touching the heat sink on the Amarr Assault (Idk if it's considered but I'm gonna address it anyway), as it truly is the best bonus you have included in this game hands down (the ScR and the Amarr Assault are good individually but together as a weapons system it becomes truly deadly, this is cool you should focus on bonuses like this especially for the other assault suits) and if things like these are changed it will literally affect muscle memory, at least for me. I spent a year and a bit mastering the weapon and its mechanics and changing something that is engrained in my muscles would be a bad thing.
Maybe a combination of ROF tweak + changing heat build up to per-shot instead of per-weapon could work out to trump turbo controllers?
Regarding Pubs and PC, I obviously cannot relate in terms of raw data coming out of both ends but as a player I can tell you that PC and pubs are a completely different environment. The strengths that make the weapon seem OP in a pub setting makes it "useable" in PC where Heavies with Six Kin's are around every corner, shotgun scouts are always behind you and most people post up on high ground. The hipfire ability lets me get off one well placed volley to a heavy or a scout that gets up on my face allowing me to engage with my sidearm (usually futile against heavies but sometimes I make it out alive) and the high burst damage allows me to pick off high ground targets or at least get them to back off for a window of opportunity.
In a Pub game I hardly get under 20 kills a game but in a tough PC like against Fatal Absolution last night (bridge map) I think I went 19/10 for the first game and 10/9 for the second game alternating between Amarr Assault and my Speed Hack Min scout, being the one Amarr Assault + ScR user out of 32 players and also being completely outscored by 3 other (amazing) shotty scouts from my team and the opposing team where the 3 of them combined for over 65 kills, in Planetary Conquest mind you. I speak from experience when I say that the Suit and Weapons performance does not equate when observing them from these two different environments.
Changing something to perform less overbearingly in Public contracts will and always has affected its performance in Planetary Conquest exponentially, hopefully what we can come out of this is a compromise that prevents this from happening again. But I think the focus should be on quelling the turbo users.
The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
2217
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Posted - 2014.09.03 05:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
zzZaXxx wrote:Does the OP admit that he uses turbo controller? I've seen him in match releasing a swarm of light from his scrambler rifle. The fastest fingers can manage 12-14 rounds before it overheats..
No, I have never and will never spend money one something as silly as a modded controller, everything I am able to do is from literally a year and more of using the Scrambler Rifle, remember; Practice makes perfect. That swarm of light you see is what I call a well placed volley.
I am advocating to provide a fix for the ScR that would make it impossible for Turbo controller users to use, as well as balancing it with the other weapons for both Pubs AND Planetary Conquest, and making sure that we don't implement sweeping changes that would detrimentally alter the weapon's mechanics that I, and a good few others, have spent a year and more to master.
The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
2217
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Posted - 2014.09.03 05:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
Come to think of it, I would hate to use a modded controller; not being able to charge my shots would suck, a lot.
In Pubs spamming your shots will get you tons of kills, militia and STD suits dont stand a chance.
In PC those 4 or 5 hip fired shots, depending on the proficiency of your aiming, can mean life or death when facing a shotty scout or HMG heavy before you engage in an often futile SMG strafe battle.
This is the distinction that most players unfortunately lack, for CCP has turned PC into such an exclusive "club" that so few of the community is able to participate.
I'm starting to think that we need to look at the bigger picture more, as opposed to scrutinizing and painstakingly deconstructing every single weapon in hopes to achieve balance. It's not too late to prevent the cycle of nerf/buffs from happening, lets try and create an environment where every weapon can be viable and leave it up to the preference of the player to decide which weapon they want to identify with.
There used to be such a cult following of people who would run the ScR rain or shine, but the nerf/buff cycle eventually hits every single weapon. Now everyone has one and now everyone is complaining.
The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
2218
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Posted - 2014.09.03 06:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
zzZaXxx wrote:What are you thinking when you say "big picture"?
That is a tough question to answer tbh, I'm not a game dev I am simply a player.
But perhaps the "big picture" is understanding that the problems we have here in Dust514 are ones that are caused by a multitude of variables, ones that are closely dependent and affect each other at exponential levels; we've seen how changing (i.e nerfing or buffing) one thing causes a chain reaction of events pushing a different thing up the food chain, thus the nerf/buff vicious cycle that I so affectionately refer to all the time.
Maybe we shouldn't focus on deconstructing aspects of the specific item and instead try to identify where the problem areas, that this item affects, lie.
For instance, with the ScR, I still believe that it outperforms in Pubs at a level that is not at all comparable to how it performs in PC (and I will continue to try and elaborate on these differences because as a player who plays more PCs than Pubs I believe I have a valid opinion) and this may be attributed to factors regarding the weapon as well as factors that are not at all related to the weapon itself. I.E Matchmaking; the games I experience where I go over 30 or 40 kills with low deaths are games where scotty decides to place 3 competent players and 13 other blueberries or random "bots" crouching up and down and its a literal shooting gallery, other time's my organized squad is pitted against another organized squad and we actually have a good pub game (which is rare cause most of the time scotty places 2 good squads on one side and 16 newbros on the other) and during those games I dont usually revolve around 20 kills depending on how focused I am.
its all a matter of circumstance.
In the end I do not know the absolute answer, I can only provide my opinion that I have generated through experience
The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
2228
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Posted - 2014.09.03 17:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:How does this help the performance of the standard gallente assault rifle besides a little hipfire kick? That's not going to make the primary variant stop underperforming. Many players swear by the Assault Rifle actually being ok, don't want to do too many things at once. Any splendid ideas? We don't want to do damage changes nor range for the time being. What do you think is the major drawback in the handling of the AR?
Maybe it's one of those things that aren't necessarily an issue with the weapon itself. I have seen a good few people run the AR and absolutely wreck face with it (I.e Nega Matix running Duvolle on a Min Scout in PC) so I agree with you saying that the AR is in an OK place, for tweaking it MIGHT put it in not so OK of a place.
But perhaps instead of looking at the AR we should look at the operator instead. I think a change for the Gal Assault to better augment the Plasma weapons is a better approach then trying to tweak the gun itself, make it like the Amarr Assault + ScR combo;
The ScR is deadly on any suit so long as the operator is able to manage a very small heat window, high damage and reliable accuracy. But when paired with the Amarr Assault it truly becomes a weapons system, the ultimate dedicated marksman, able to pump out more rounds and engage more targets at once or in quick succession.
Now imagine if we can talk like this about all the assault suits.
I.e
The AR is deadly on any suit, a reliable full auto weapon that has a fairly balanced damage profile against both shields and armor, hits hard, has a good reserve of ammo and very operator friendly to use. But when paired with the Gallente Assault it truly becomes a weapons system, the ultimate shock trooper, able to augment the ROF of these plasma weapons to deadly effect, taking out close range targets faster and in quicker succession.
Something like that? I've always been opposed to being told what weapon to run on a particular suit but on the Amarr Assault it makes sense, there is no other weapon you should equip on the suit because it would be a waste of benefits, but if the weapon itself is already pretty good AND is augmented when paired up with a particular suit then it allows other players to want to skill into these suits and revel in the augmentations of their favorite weapon, because this is how I feel about my Amarr Assault + ScR combo; I hardly use the ScR in any other suit and I would never put any other weapon other than the ScR on my Amarr Assault.
It seems that this is the niche for assault suits CCP is going for but they fell short when designing the Cal and Gal bonuses, the Min and Amarr are perfect for the assaults.
The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
2228
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Posted - 2014.09.03 17:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Watching the TAR vs Scrambler video and poring over the rifle data, we propose these small tweaks. In most cases, the Gallente rifle family just has overall the worst comparative kick and dispersion so we want to bring them closer to the rest of the rifles.
Bear in mind that these are very small tweaks except for the Gallente ones that are heavily underperforming
Reduce Hipfire dispersion of Tactical Assault Rifle (TAR) to be closer to the Scrambler Rifle (considerable)
Reduce Hipfire Kick of TAR to be closer to Scrambler Rifle (considerable)
Increase Hipfire Kick of Scrambler Rifle to be closer to TAR (tiny)
Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Assault rifle (tiny)
Reduce Hipfire Kick of Gallente Burst Assault Rifles (tiny)
Reduce Zoomed Dispersion of Gallente Breach Rifles (considerable)
Set ROF of both Scrambler and TAR to 600
Increase Hipfire Kick of Rail Rifles on second or more rapid consecutive shot, so full auto will be less accurate in CQC (some)
There are no tweaks for the Assault Scrambler as it may be suffering from Armor tanking environment, unless there is a specific reason you can find, there is nothing in the stats that says it should be.
Interesting change proposal.
I like the idea of giving the Dedicated Marksmen of this game a choice of platforms to use and I'd probably bust out the TAR some more if these changes come through.
Also, can anyone assure me that at 600RPM I would still be able to fire as fast as my finger can pull the trigger? Truly, this is all that matters to me. Is there a lower amount of RPM where this would still be possible? I fear that the Turbo Controller issue would not be completely fixed even with this proposed RPM, but I honestly dont know.
I wish you had a test server. I would let you pay me an ISK wage to sit there and test stuff for you Rattati
The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
2228
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Posted - 2014.09.03 17:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
zzZaXxx wrote:1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote:The AR is deadly on any suit, a reliable full auto weapon that has a fairly balanced damage profile against both shields and armor, hits hard, has a good reserve of ammo and very operator friendly to use. But when paired with the Gallente Assault it truly becomes a weapons system, the ultimate shock trooper, able to augment the ROF of these plasma weapons to deadly effect, taking out close range targets faster and in quicker succession.
It seems that this is the niche for assault suits CCP is going for but they fell short when designing the Cal and Gal bonuses, the Min and Amarr are perfect for the assaults. Are you suggesting a ROF bonus for Gal assault? That sounds OP but then again that's exactly what the Amarr assault bonus amounts to, though with ScR ROF hopefully soon capped at 600 that might change. Not sure. (I know I said more heat build up is a better answer but honestly I'll take it.) I like what you're saying about weapons systems. That's what Amarr and Minmatar are, fully skilled up--able to fire volley swarms from the ScR or unload a larger clip into someone with a Six Kin. I suppose a ROF bonus for Gallente would be the closest thing to how the Amarr and Minmatar bonuses "evolve" those assaults. A kick reduction bonus for Caldari assaults would similarly "evolve" them, making them more accurate at range and much more deadly in CQC.
I think anything to do with altering the heat sink on the Amarr Assault or the rate at which it builds up and overheats will be detrimental to the weapons system and the dedicated users of the weapons system, like I said before changes to this will directly affect my muscle memory, because I no longer watch the heat gauge, I feel the heat gauge. And being able to pump out more shots from the ScR is not a good way to go, I think the amount level of heat management on the weapon is perfect, perfect in PC and maybe too good in Pubs but thats a matter of the suits youre going against more so than what the weapon is able to do. IMO
And yes I am suggesting an ROF bonus for Gal Assault, but a small one like the heat sink on the Amarr Assault, a tiny augmentation that good assault players are able to utilize to deadly effect, making a good weapon just slightly better because this game is a game of decimal points and seconds, small changes go a looonnngg way.
I'm not sure what to do with Caldari as I have never skilled into them nor do I like using the RR very much, so I am not going to put forth an uninformed opinion
The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
2229
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Posted - 2014.09.03 17:31:00 -
[9] - Quote
Gabriella Grey wrote:TAR should not have a similar ROF by the simple fact it has no issue with jamming. 
Good point.
Maybe we could implement an overheat feature on the TAR similar to how the Krin operates? No feedback damage (cause lets face it, only the Amarr are Masochistic) but still a good 5 seconds of having your **** in the wind. Or maybe a reduction of clip size by 3 (from 18 to 15) making it so that the TAR is able to spit out approximately the same number of shots a non Amarr Assault using ScR operator can pump out before overheating?
The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
2229
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Posted - 2014.09.03 17:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
zzZaXxx wrote:Well a 25% faster ROF would be pretty OP. But something less than that would actually be perfect I think. Better in Gallente assaults role than a range bonus.
And it looks like Rattati is not planning on increasing heat build up, but he's suggesting reducing your ROF by 106 RPM. You ok with that? :D
Maybe 15% then? But again, I am not sure so I dont want to put out uninformed opinions.
And yes I am absolutely okay with an ROF change so long as it hurts Turbo Controller users but still allows me to fire as many shots as my finger can depress the trigger; thats all I am concerned about.
The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
2230
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Posted - 2014.09.03 17:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
zzZaXxx wrote:1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote:zzZaXxx wrote:Well a 25% faster ROF would be pretty OP. But something less than that would actually be perfect I think. Better in Gallente assaults role than a range bonus.
And it looks like Rattati is not planning on increasing heat build up, but he's suggesting reducing your ROF by 106 RPM. You ok with that? :D Maybe 15% then? But again, I am not sure so I dont want to put out uninformed opinions. And yes I am absolutely okay with an ROF change so long as it hurts Turbo Controller users but still allows me to fire as many shots as my finger can depress the trigger; thats all I am concerned about. Ok, I'm confused. The assault rail rifle's ROF is 600. So if the ScR's new ROF is 600 you should only be able to fire as fast as an AsRR right?
I dont actually know lol hopefully someone will come and provide an explanation
The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
2231
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Posted - 2014.09.03 17:56:00 -
[12] - Quote
ratamaq doc wrote:1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote:
I think anything to do with altering the heat sink on the Amarr Assault or the rate at which it builds up and overheats will be detrimental to the weapons system and the dedicated users of the weapons system, like I said before changes to this will directly affect my muscle memory, because I no longer watch the heat gauge, I feel the heat gauge. And being able to pump out more shots from the ScR is not a good way to go, I think the amount level of heat management on the weapon is perfect, perfect in PC and maybe too good in Pubs but thats a matter of the suits youre going against more so than what the weapon is able to do. IMO
I'm with you here. I've been using the SCR since it launched and feeling and muscle memory is everything to me now. I don't want to have to adjust to my weapons mood swing. I already have to deal with that with my wife.
Lmao, and from the video I take you being "a man of rhythm" as you being a drummer? Because I am a guitarist and muscle memory is everything when trying to intricately play an instrument while maintaining rhythm.
Similar concept to figuring out the heat management and firing intervals of the ScR
The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
2234
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Posted - 2014.09.04 00:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
CUSE TOWN333 wrote:if only the OP fits are used in PC then why is the scrambler rifle rarely used???
I am the 1% :D
The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
2234
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Posted - 2014.09.04 02:49:00 -
[14] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Zatara Rought wrote:I've suggested before that the SCR is a skill shot weapon that is meant for long range engagements. Why does the hipfire remain without more kick? There is a Hipfire Kick increase proposed, just not too big
Small steps are a good start bud.
Maybe you could even start implementing a few at a time, see how they perform then deploy added tweaks if necessary
The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
2240
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Posted - 2014.09.09 15:29:00 -
[15] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:I think we have reached the end of the line, thanks for all the feedback, and stay tuned for the Delta numbers.
Glad I could help o7
The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
2242
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Posted - 2014.09.10 23:43:00 -
[16] - Quote
I concur MGS is truly a beautiful game. But lets try and stay on topic.
Rattati; will further feedback still be available after changes get implemented? It would be a great idea to keep us involved in the balancing process.
I will also do my best to give you PC testing of the changes.
The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
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