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CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4212	Posted - 2014.07.14 22:35:00 - [1] - Quote Dear players, after thoroughly discussing with the scout community, these are our proposed changes. EWAR Calculations I have documented all the necessary and relevant scenarios, I hope. At the top of the document, I have collected the key numbers and tried to put them into perspective. Galogi focused scanner gets the highest range and precision possible, due to it being 1) active, 2) narrow and 3) having a limited duration. This helps establish boundaries that scouts need to live within. That said, by a combination of racial bonuses and dedication of slots All scouts can have similar range, 76m to 91, under the Focused at 100m. This is under review, and I am looking at reducing Range amplifiers to 30% instead of the current 45%. All scouts can get under the focused scan dB by using a cloak, exception Gallente not needing cloak. All scouts can get under the best passive scan dB by using 2 dampeners and cloak or 3 dampeners. Best passive at 2 precision modules is beaten by best dampener at 2 dampening modules. Minmatar get a small PG boost, and all scouts can utilize a very slight PG reduction of KinCats andCodebreakers, possibly Nova Knifes. Nova Knifes will get increased Aim Adhesion, making hit detection work a little better in close quarters, a damage boost 120/160/200 and possibly a little increase in aim, 2.00m to 2.25m OR 2.50m This does not require Codebreakers to be in high, so don't assume that is the case. Please keep your comments civil and on topic. Changing bonuses to module efficacy or other ideas of the sort are not on the table for now. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 536	Posted - 2014.07.14 22:40:00 - [2] - Quote what are you going to do about how far they can toss remotes? keep in mind with how hard they are to see already and how high they can jump and how fast they are, tossing remotes 10 meters almost undetected makes them OP... so they either need to be more easily detectable or the Frisbee mechanic needs a hard cap on how far they can be thrown.
Haerr Legio DXIV 1005	Posted - 2014.07.14 22:40:00 - [3] - Quote Dust 514 - Scan Table - Presently: GOOGLE DOCS Dust 514 - Scan Table - Hotfix Charlie: GOOGLE DOCS ^ Before and after for easy comparison. Will vote for: pÇîA·P·P·I·ApÇì & pÇîR·H·A·D·ApÇì despite them hating on Nordic food customs. ;)
Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 1020	Posted - 2014.07.14 22:41:00 - [4] - Quote But on a related topic, is there any way to get these numbers in a more visually appealing format? DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/ EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 2572	Posted - 2014.07.14 22:42:00 - [5] - Quote Looks good to me. This is how a minja feels
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10985	Posted - 2014.07.14 22:45:00 - [6] - Quote I would like to know the thinking behind giving Gallente precision? Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 6527	Posted - 2014.07.14 22:45:00 - [7] - Quote Bring Codebreakers to highslots please. see you space cowboy...
MINA Longstrike 1015	Posted - 2014.07.14 22:46:00 - [8] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, after thoroughly discussing with the scout community, these are our proposed changes. EWAR Calculations I have documented all the necessary and relevant scenarios, I hope. At the top of the document, I have collected the key numbers and tried to put them into perspective. Galogi focused scanner gets the highest range and precision possible, due to it being 1) active, 2) narrow and 3) having a limited duration. This helps establish boundaries that scouts need to live within. That said, by a combination of racial bonuses and dedication of slots All scouts can have similar range, 76m to 91, under the Focused at 100m. This is under review, and I am looking at reducing Range amplifiers to 30% instead of the current 45%. All scouts can get under the focused scan dB by using a cloak, exception Gallente not needing cloak. All scouts can get under the best passive scan dB by using 2 dampeners and cloak or 3 dampeners. Best passive at 2 precision modules is beaten by best dampener at 2 dampening modules. Minmatar get a small PG boost, and all scouts can utilize a very slight PG reduction of KinCats andCodebreakers, possibly Nova Knifes. Nova Knifes will get increased Aim Adhesion, making hit detection work a little better in close quarters, a damage boost 120/160/200 and possibly a little increase in aim, 2.00m to 2.25m OR 2.50m This does not require Codebreakers to be in high, so don't assume that is the case. Please keep your comments civil and on topic. Changing bonuses to module efficacy or other ideas of the sort are not on the table for now. Just a comment on the google docs numbers. Nothing is ever rounded in dust, nor is it truncated. It is only ever rounded for display purposes, if you had 11.111111123 precision on one fit and 11.111111122 profile on another fit that first fit would never be able to passive scan the second fit, as nothing is ever rounded. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 2572	Posted - 2014.07.14 22:47:00 - [9] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: I would like to know the thinking behind giving Gallente precision? Gallente Logis have had precision to active scanners for awhile now. I don't think that is regarding gal scouts. This is how a minja feels
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10985	Posted - 2014.07.14 22:47:00 - [10] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, after thoroughly discussing with the scout community, these are our proposed changes. EWAR Calculations I have documented all the necessary and relevant scenarios, I hope. At the top of the document, I have collected the key numbers and tried to put them into perspective. Galogi focused scanner gets the highest range and precision possible, due to it being 1) active, 2) narrow and 3) having a limited duration. This helps establish boundaries that scouts need to live within. That said, by a combination of racial bonuses and dedication of slots All scouts can have similar range, 76m to 91, under the Focused at 100m. This is under review, and I am looking at reducing Range amplifiers to 30% instead of the current 45%. All scouts can get under the focused scan dB by using a cloak, exception Gallente not needing cloak. All scouts can get under the best passive scan dB by using 2 dampeners and cloak or 3 dampeners. Best passive at 2 precision modules is beaten by best dampener at 2 dampening modules. Minmatar get a small PG boost, and all scouts can utilize a very slight PG reduction of KinCats andCodebreakers, possibly Nova Knifes. Nova Knifes will get increased Aim Adhesion, making hit detection work a little better in close quarters, a damage boost 120/160/200 and possibly a little increase in aim, 2.00m to 2.25m OR 2.50m This does not require Codebreakers to be in high, so don't assume that is the case. Please keep your comments civil and on topic. Changing bonuses to module efficacy or other ideas of the sort are not on the table for now. Just a comment on the google docs numbers. Nothing is ever rounded in dust, nor is it truncated. It is only ever rounded for display purposes, if you had 11.111111123 precision on one fit and 11.111111122 profile on another fit that first fit would never be able to passive scan the second fit, as nothing is ever rounded. According to extensive testing from the people at the Barbershop, it DOES get rounded, not just for display. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC

BlazeXYZ xCosmic Voidx Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 42	Posted - 2014.07.14 22:54:00 - [11] - Quote What is the purpose of giving the caldari scout 3% profile per level.? The Blazing Intellect Machine
Spademan The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 2193	Posted - 2014.07.14 22:55:00 - [12] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Cat Merc wrote: I would like to know the thinking behind giving Gallente precision? Gallente Logis have had precision to active scanners for awhile now. I don't think that is regarding gal scouts. Scroll to the right and you'll find gallente scout, Bigger bonus to Dampening, smaller one to precision. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 2572	Posted - 2014.07.14 22:57:00 - [13] - Quote Spademan wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Cat Merc wrote: I would like to know the thinking behind giving Gallente precision? Gallente Logis have had precision to active scanners for awhile now. I don't think that is regarding gal scouts. Scroll to the right and you'll find gallente scout, Bigger bonus to Dampening, smaller one to precision. Bastard! I just edited my post and you had to quote me. How dare you sir!! This is how a minja feels
Gabriella Grey Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 122	Posted - 2014.07.14 23:01:00 - [14] - Quote This is a very solid hot fix. *Always Grey Skies*
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2780	Posted - 2014.07.14 23:03:00 - [15] - Quote BlazeXYZ wrote: What is the purpose of giving the caldari scout 3% profile per level.? Presently ... Massive precision is required of the CalScout to pickup the GalScout. Massive dampening is required of the GalScout to hide from the CalScout. Balancing one extreme with another shafts those in the middle. The values you see are intended to "normalize" the current extremes. Which will [hopefully] make for better interplay among all Scouts. The big unknown in all of this is the GalLogi. Fingers crossed. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Spademan The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 2201	Posted - 2014.07.14 23:15:00 - [16] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Bastard! I just edited my post and you had to quote me. How dare you sir!! To bold and underline or to not... I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 6252	Posted - 2014.07.14 23:49:00 - [17] - Quote I see you gave a reason for gallente scouts to not stack shield extenders. Me like. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
SAIRAX SIS Nyain San General Tso's Alliance 104	Posted - 2014.07.15 00:12:00 - [18] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, after thoroughly discussing with the scout community, these are our proposed changes. EWAR Calculations Gal Scout unnecessary Precision bonus. Gal Scout needs Profile Dumpting -5%/lv only. they are Spy. arenot Recon. yoroshiku ne !pÇÇpÇÇCute Cat NyaoooonpÇÇGÖ¬
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 2580	Posted - 2014.07.15 00:25:00 - [19] - Quote SAIRAX SIS wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, after thoroughly discussing with the scout community, these are our proposed changes. EWAR Calculations Gal Scout unnecessary Precision bonus. Gal Scout needs Profile Dumpting -5%/lv only. they are Spy. arenot Recon. CCP Rattati wrote: Cat Merc wrote: So why are Gallente getting precision? Can someone explain to me the thinking here? What will its effects be? so it can get decent precision with their 2H slots, if that's what they want. Its a supplementary second skill to make sure all of them have two and to even the playing field. that's also why cal is getting a dampening bonus. As you can see, caldari also get a bit of dampening bonus. I think it gives them both a role while not getting too crazy or unbalanced. Plus like moody said, it gives them something to fill up all those slots with other than shield/armor tank. This is how a minja feels
I-Shayz-I I----------I 4074	Posted - 2014.07.15 00:32:00 - [20] - Quote So... You're basically making it so that all scouts can have similar maximum values provided they use the majority of the specific type of slots to do so. I could be wrong, but I still see caldari scouts stacking 450 shields on their suit and using the dampening/range passives to be able to use other low slot mods Maybe this is good balancing for competitive play, but this game isn't Scout 514 (or is it? Correct me if I'm wrong here). Caldari scouts have such a low shield delay that the penalty for stacking extenders doesn't affect them, meaning that unlike Assaults they never have to run shield regulators for a tanked shield fit to be viable. They also have a base shield recharge rate of 50, meaning that shield energizers or rechargers are also never needed. On top of everything, scouts don't need to actually use the modules to get these bonuses. They don't need to equip a damp to get the damp bonus, whereas an assault has to use that specific weapon to get the weapon bonus, or a logi using the specific equipment to get the equipment bonus. _________________________________________________________________________________________ While yes I understand that Assaults are getting a buff here soon as well, there's more of a reason why the Caldari scout is used more than others besides the bonuses it has compared to other scouts. It has way too many advantages towards slaying for a scout. Scouts already have a small hitbox, lower profile, and faster movement speed. Allowing the Caldari one to also have the best regeneration of any suit, a huge amount of fitting space, and high HP values with barely any penalty is just silly. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!

Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 687	Posted - 2014.07.15 00:33:00 - [21] - Quote SAIRAX SIS wrote: Gal Scout unnecessary Precision bonus. Gal Scout needs Profile Dumpting -5%/lv only. they are Spy. arenot Recon. It's called balance. Don't worry though, you can still be a Sentinel with a laser rifle.
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 5944	Posted - 2014.07.15 01:03:00 - [22] - Quote Seymour KrelbornX wrote: what are you going to do about how far they can toss remotes? keep in mind with how hard they are to see already and how high they can jump and how fast they are, tossing remotes 10 meters almost undetected makes them OP... so they either need to be more easily detectable or the Frisbee mechanic needs a hard cap on how far they can be thrown. If you are routinely getting killed by killer frisbee's, then you REALLY need to invest in some situational awareness. How I Imagine I look when running Minmatar Scout PSN: EVL_Elgost105
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 5944	Posted - 2014.07.15 01:04:00 - [23] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, after thoroughly discussing with the scout community, these are our proposed changes. EWAR Calculations I have documented all the necessary and relevant scenarios, I hope. At the top of the document, I have collected the key numbers and tried to put them into perspective. Galogi focused scanner gets the highest range and precision possible, due to it being 1) active, 2) narrow and 3) having a limited duration. This helps establish boundaries that scouts need to live within. That said, by a combination of racial bonuses and dedication of slots All scouts can have similar range, 76m to 91, under the Focused at 100m. This is under review, and I am looking at reducing Range amplifiers to 30% instead of the current 45%. All scouts can get under the focused scan dB by using a cloak, exception Gallente not needing cloak. All scouts can get under the best passive scan dB by using 2 dampeners and cloak or 3 dampeners. Best passive at 2 precision modules is beaten by best dampener at 2 dampening modules. Minmatar get a small PG boost, and all scouts can utilize a very slight PG reduction of KinCats andCodebreakers, possibly Nova Knifes. Nova Knifes will get increased Aim Adhesion, making hit detection work a little better in close quarters, a damage boost 120/160/200 and possibly a little increase in aim, 2.00m to 2.25m OR 2.50m This does not require Codebreakers to be in high, so don't assume that is the case. Please keep your comments civil and on topic. Changing bonuses to module efficacy or other ideas of the sort are not on the table for now. Just a comment on the google docs numbers. Nothing is ever rounded in dust, nor is it truncated. It is only ever rounded for display purposes, if you had 11.111111123 precision on one fit and 11.111111122 profile on another fit that first fit would never be able to passive scan the second fit, as nothing is ever rounded. I'm not sure who told you they did, but they're wrong. It's possible to deal fractions of a point of damage. This is wrong. We have tested this EXTENSIVELY. They do in fact round. And the tie goes to the scanner. How I Imagine I look when running Minmatar Scout PSN: EVL_Elgost105
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 5944	Posted - 2014.07.15 01:07:00 - [24] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: I see you gave a reason for gallente scouts to not stack shield extenders. Me like. We have worked pretty hard at this. Much arguing. Such rage. In the end, this product has been thrown out the shop doors, with Ratatti's help. I feel good about this. How I Imagine I look when running Minmatar Scout PSN: EVL_Elgost105
SAIRAX SIS Nyain San General Tso's Alliance 104	Posted - 2014.07.15 01:14:00 - [25] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: So... You're basically making it so that all scouts can have similar maximum values provided they use the majority of the specific type of slots to do so. I could be wrong, but I still see caldari scouts stacking 450 shields on their suit and using the dampening/range passives to be able to use other low slot mods Maybe this is good balancing for competitive play, but this game isn't Scout 514 (or is it? Correct me if I'm wrong here). Caldari scouts have such a low shield delay that the penalty for stacking extenders doesn't affect them, meaning that unlike Assaults they never have to run shield regulators for a tanked shield fit to be viable. They also have a base shield recharge rate of 50, meaning that shield energizers or rechargers are also never needed. On top of everything, scouts don't need to actually use the modules to get these bonuses. They don't need to equip a damp to get the damp bonus, whereas an assault has to use that specific weapon to get the weapon bonus, or a logi using the specific equipment to get the equipment bonus. _________________________________________________________________________________________ While yes I understand that Assaults are getting a buff here soon as well, there's more of a reason why the Caldari scout is used more than others besides the bonuses it has compared to other scouts. It has way too many advantages towards slaying for a scout. Scouts already have a small hitbox, lower profile, and faster movement speed. Allowing the Caldari one to also have the best regeneration of any suit, a huge amount of fitting space, and high HP values with barely any penalty is just silly. i agree... Cal Scout is already best Assaulting scout. (High-Shield Recharge, No movement penalty by Shield Tanking, Small Hitbox) In addition, it's that offset by new bonus, (weaknesses low slot is small) it is ABSURD. CCP was reduced Dumpting bonus to say fits becomes easy, and reducing the scan radius does not match the role of each scout when nerf Gallen te scout !!! The first place, because Gal Scout is hiding suit, I do not know the meaning to get a half-hearted Scan Precision, and do not know why to get Profile Dumpting bonus on Cal Scout. Behavior Mismatch. why? And...Scout side Though it is mandatory measures, Gal Logi is fine only with a focus scanner. OP. yoroshiku ne !pÇÇpÇÇCute Cat NyaoooonpÇÇGÖ¬
SAIRAX SIS Nyain San General Tso's Alliance 104	Posted - 2014.07.15 01:18:00 - [26] - Quote Happy Violentime wrote: SAIRAX SIS wrote: Gal Scout unnecessary Precision bonus. Gal Scout needs Profile Dumpting -5%/lv only. they are Spy. arenot Recon. It's called balance. Don't worry though, you can still be a Sentinel with a laser rifle. lol i used Ama Ass LR in data mining event. 2300kill,that was weekly rank 47. its fine ^q^ yoroshiku ne !pÇÇpÇÇCute Cat NyaoooonpÇÇGÖ¬
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 5949	Posted - 2014.07.15 01:27:00 - [27] - Quote SAIRAX SIS wrote: i agree... Cal Scout is already best Assaulting scout. (High-Shield Recharge, No movement penalty by Shield Tanking, Small Hitbox) In addition, it's that offset by new bonus, (weaknesses low slot is small) it is ABSURD. CCP was reduced Dumpting bonus to say fits becomes easy, and reducing the scan radius does not match the role of each scout when nerf Gallen te scout !!! The first place, because Gal Scout is hiding suit, I do not know the meaning to get a half-hearted Scan Precision, and do not know why to get Profile Dumpting bonus on Cal Scout. Behavior Mismatch. why? And...Scout side Though it is mandatory measures, Gal Logi is fine only with a focus scanner. OP. SIGH Assault changes are coming. Remember that. Rattati will buff the assault to make it a better choice than the scouts ( I have full faith in him. Get some assault players together and make a thread. If you are diligent in trying to improve the suit, help will come) Anyways: Cal gets dampening to help it stay hidden and provide long range, low power scans. A single damp, and a single range amp will probably be the best combo. Cal scouts scanning your med frame too much? Run a damp. 1x Damp will make you invisible to any Cal Scan or Min Scan. I suspect most Cal scouts will run 2x shields and 2x Precision. This will let them pick up any med frame not running 3x damps. However, at this point, they only have 308 shields and 87 armor. Easy prey if you catch them. Gal scouts are getting a precision bonus to make up for loss of range. It also helps stop the dual tanking problem, encouraging people to not stack HP. They are harder to detect, but do not possess the strong scans of the amarr. They can buff range a bit easier, but amarr will still win in the eWAR fight. Gal on the other hand, will still be masters of dampening, due to the huge amount of low slots and CPU/PG. You will still be a strongly damped Gal scout. It'll just take 2x damps and a cloak. Combine with the 2x precision? Wow, look! Only two slots left for HP! Notice what's happening? Passive bonuses are less attractive. You must use modules to get the best mileage out of the suit, and this cuts down on HP stacking. How I Imagine I look when running Minmatar Scout PSN: EVL_Elgost105
SAIRAX SIS Nyain San General Tso's Alliance 104	Posted - 2014.07.15 01:37:00 - [28] - Quote Well, thank you Ghost Kaisar :) I understand the theory. But, reason for using Gal Scout to be remains of this spreadsheet is not inspires... I think differentiation is badly.pÇÇpÇÇsad ;p yoroshiku ne !pÇÇpÇÇCute Cat NyaoooonpÇÇGÖ¬
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 5953	Posted - 2014.07.15 01:43:00 - [29] - Quote SAIRAX SIS wrote: Well, thank you Ghost Kaisar :) I understand the theory. But, reason for using Gal Scout to be remains of this spreadsheet is not inspires... I think differentiation is badly.pÇÇpÇÇsad ;p It's a pleasure. I aim to be as informative as possible without being a jerk. That being said, I have my hands full tonight. Soooo many people raging about things and not actually thinking or looking at the numbers. How I Imagine I look when running Minmatar Scout PSN: EVL_Elgost105
Bayeth Mal OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 753	Posted - 2014.07.15 01:56:00 - [30] - Quote I like it. There will be rage, it is to be expected. Hopefully the assault buff will be good. Heading over to Destiny Beta and a few others Hit me up for Skype and PSN

Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1685	Posted - 2014.07.15 01:57:00 - [31] - Quote Just to provide some context for the changes. The listed changes have been discussed with sections of the scout community at length, and are endorsed as the best option available under the current limitations (server side changes only, etc). As it stands, everyone in competitive play is either using the Cal scout as a hyper scanner in a 6 man squad, or the Gal at max dampening to counter it. The Amarr scout continues to lack a defined role and the Minmatar is being sidelined to the point that it is no longer appearing in competitive play. CCP has stats to back it up. The Cal scouts solo is not the problem. The Cal scout in a group is. They've become the new 360 scanner, but worse. Worse because, unlike active scanners, there's no warning, no cool down, and no way to avoid it outside of very specific fits (in effect, just the Gal scout). Removal of passive scanning has been requested to fix this issue (pushing Scouts to use active scanners to 'paint' targets if they want to share them with team mates), but is not technically feasible at this time. Check footnotes for hot-fix Charlie. This change is a blance fix while the technical details of removing shared passive scans is worked out, along with implementing module efficacy bonuses to replace the current passive bonuses (also in the footnotes for Charlie), to move scouts away from brick tanking. With the expected changes, all scouts will be able to reasonably drop off tac net (2 damps + cloak, or 3 damps), and will all have viable range and precision (though Amarr and Cal will excel), and there will be a viable reason for all scouts to fit something other than armor or shield modules. In effect it gives the Amarr scout a worthwhile bonus (and hopefully a worthwhile role) and makes the Minmatar scout viable in competitive play again, while normalising EWAR across all scouts. It also re-intoduces the Gal logi as the go to battlefield scanner, with all the pro's and con's of active scanning (better range, very high precision, but time limited, alerts the target, and exposes the user). Feel free to ask if you want more info. o7 Knowledge is power
Grimmiers 631	Posted - 2014.07.15 02:07:00 - [32] - Quote Impressive. The gallogi with a focus scanner would have to make a lot of guess work so it should be balanced. You could raise the pg of the focused to 24 just so you really have to sacrifice a lot to run 4 of them. After the gal logi bonus the pg would be brought down to 18.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1348	Posted - 2014.07.15 02:21:00 - [33] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, after thoroughly discussing with the scout community, these are our proposed changes. EWAR Calculations I have documented all the necessary and relevant scenarios, I hope. At the top of the document, I have collected the key numbers and tried to put them into perspective. Galogi focused scanner gets the highest range and precision possible, due to it being 1) active, 2) narrow and 3) having a limited duration. This helps establish boundaries that scouts need to live within. That said, by a combination of racial bonuses and dedication of slots All scouts can have similar range, 76m to 91, under the Focused at 100m. This is under review, and I am looking at reducing Range amplifiers to 30% instead of the current 45%. All scouts can get under the focused scan dB by using a cloak, exception Gallente not needing cloak. All scouts can get under the best passive scan dB by using 2 dampeners and cloak or 3 dampeners. Best passive at 2 precision modules is beaten by best dampener at 2 dampening modules. Minmatar get a small PG boost, and all scouts can utilize a very slight PG reduction of KinCats andCodebreakers, possibly Nova Knifes. Nova Knifes will get increased Aim Adhesion, making hit detection work a little better in close quarters, a damage boost 120/160/200 and possibly a little increase in aim, 2.00m to 2.25m OR 2.50m This does not require Codebreakers to be in high, so don't assume that is the case. Please keep your comments civil and on topic. Changing bonuses to module efficacy or other ideas of the sort are not on the table for now. Just a comment on the google docs numbers. Nothing is ever rounded in dust, nor is it truncated. It is only ever rounded for display purposes, if you had 11.111111123 precision on one fit and 11.111111122 profile on another fit that first fit would never be able to passive scan the second fit, as nothing is ever rounded. I'm not sure who told you they did, but they're wrong. It's possible to deal fractions of a point of damage. The people coding probably set the display value following modification to the actual value thats kept and used "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. Kills-Archduke Ferd1nand
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1350	Posted - 2014.07.15 02:30:00 - [34] - Quote Also, to the people coming in here and thinking "zOMGWTFLOLNOOOSCOUNTBUFF", this really is just a shift in the equilibrium between scout classes, and will hopefully give the battlefield a little more diversity. The main effect of these changes will be from a 40% gal scout 55% cal scout 3% min scout 2% am scout, we will hopefully see something more along the lines of 30% gal scout, 30% cal scout, 15% min scout, and 25% am scout. If you do not run in organized squads, these changes will not affect you unless you are a scout, in which case you should see the logic in the proposal. This change should also push the equilibrium of the battlefield a little bit more towards an ideal med frame population, particularly the gal logi, as the focused active scanner will once again reign supreme as the ultimate anti-scout weapon. More questions/comments/concerns, just put it out there, but please try to remain civil, and have the decency to only post in an intelligent and well thought out manner Thanks guys, Gav "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. Kills-Archduke Ferd1nand
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1690	Posted - 2014.07.15 02:35:00 - [35] - Quote Grimmiers wrote: Impressive. The gallogi with a focus scanner would have to make a lot of guess work so it should be balanced. You could raise the pg of the focused to 24 just so you really have to sacrifice a lot to run 4 of them. After the gal logi bonus the pg would be brought down to 18. Will have to see how the rise of the Gal logi pans out. It's possible that it will end up being exploited again (4 x proto focused scanners while standing next to a supply depo to swap out for another suit with 4 scanners), but it should only see limited play in Pubs. Should. Pro players love them crutches... Knowledge is power
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 5970	Posted - 2014.07.15 03:07:00 - [36] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Grimmiers wrote: Impressive. The gallogi with a focus scanner would have to make a lot of guess work so it should be balanced. You could raise the pg of the focused to 24 just so you really have to sacrifice a lot to run 4 of them. After the gal logi bonus the pg would be brought down to 18. Will have to see how the rise of the Gal logi pans out. It's possible that it will end up being exploited again (4 x proto focused scanners while standing next to a supply depo to swap out for another suit with 4 scanners), but it should only see limited play in Pubs. Should. Pro players love them crutches... We can still damp hard to avoid Focused scans if we have too. And then we give that Gal Logi a blap to the face and then cap the depot. RE the spot for future use How I Imagine I look when running Minmatar Scout PSN: EVL_Elgost105
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 913	Posted - 2014.07.15 03:07:00 - [37] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Will have to see how the rise of the Gal logi pans out. It's possible that it will end up being exploited again (4 x proto focused scanners while standing next to a supply depo to swap out for another suit with 4 scanners), but it should only see limited play in Pubs. Should. Pro players love them crutches... I don't think it will be particularly effective tbh. Dust/Eve transfers
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1698	Posted - 2014.07.15 03:16:00 - [38] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Brokerib wrote: Grimmiers wrote: Impressive. The gallogi with a focus scanner would have to make a lot of guess work so it should be balanced. You could raise the pg of the focused to 24 just so you really have to sacrifice a lot to run 4 of them. After the gal logi bonus the pg would be brought down to 18. Will have to see how the rise of the Gal logi pans out. It's possible that it will end up being exploited again (4 x proto focused scanners while standing next to a supply depo to swap out for another suit with 4 scanners), but it should only see limited play in Pubs. Should. Pro players love them crutches... We can still damp hard to avoid Focused scans if we have too. And then we give that Gal Logi a blap to the face and then cap the depot. RE the spot for future use http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/395/5492 o7 Knowledge is power
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 5973	Posted - 2014.07.15 03:16:00 - [39] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Brokerib wrote: Will have to see how the rise of the Gal logi pans out. It's possible that it will end up being exploited again (4 x proto focused scanners while standing next to a supply depo to swap out for another suit with 4 scanners), but it should only see limited play in Pubs. Should. Pro players love them crutches... I don't think it will be particularly effective tbh. It will force scouts to use max dampened fits. If you can PROTECT that logi, it will severely hamper offensive scout capabilities due to the lack of HP or role bonuses they get. At that point, it becomes the scouts job to damp below scanning and attempt to take out the Logi. Teamwork will be a considerable help in this. Remember, we can still scan that logi with passives, so we will have to hunt him down and kill him wherever he is. How I Imagine I look when running Minmatar Scout PSN: EVL_Elgost105
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 5973	Posted - 2014.07.15 03:17:00 - [40] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Brokerib wrote: Grimmiers wrote: Impressive. The gallogi with a focus scanner would have to make a lot of guess work so it should be balanced. You could raise the pg of the focused to 24 just so you really have to sacrifice a lot to run 4 of them. After the gal logi bonus the pg would be brought down to 18. Will have to see how the rise of the Gal logi pans out. It's possible that it will end up being exploited again (4 x proto focused scanners while standing next to a supply depo to swap out for another suit with 4 scanners), but it should only see limited play in Pubs. Should. Pro players love them crutches... We can still damp hard to avoid Focused scans if we have too. And then we give that Gal Logi a blap to the face and then cap the depot. RE the spot for future use http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/395/5492 o7 Wouldn't have fit it any other way How I Imagine I look when running Minmatar Scout PSN: EVL_Elgost105

bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 346	Posted - 2014.07.15 03:46:00 - [41] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, after thoroughly discussing with the scout community, these are our proposed changes. EWAR Calculations I have documented all the necessary and relevant scenarios, I hope. At the top of the document, I have collected the key numbers and tried to put them into perspective. Galogi focused scanner gets the highest range and precision possible, due to it being 1) active, 2) narrow and 3) having a limited duration. This helps establish boundaries that scouts need to live within. That said, by a combination of racial bonuses and dedication of slots All scouts can have similar range, 76m to 91, under the Focused at 100m. This is under review, and I am looking at reducing Range amplifiers to 30% instead of the current 45%. All scouts can get under the focused scan dB by using a cloak, exception Gallente not needing cloak. All scouts can get under the best passive scan dB by using 2 dampeners and cloak or 3 dampeners. Best passive at 2 precision modules is beaten by best dampener at 2 dampening modules. Minmatar get a small PG boost, and all scouts can utilize a very slight PG reduction of KinCats andCodebreakers, possibly Nova Knifes. Nova Knifes will get increased Aim Adhesion, making hit detection work a little better in close quarters, a damage boost 120/160/200 and possibly a little increase in aim, 2.00m to 2.25m OR 2.50m This does not require Codebreakers to be in high, so don't assume that is the case. Please keep your comments civil and on topic. Changing bonuses to module efficacy or other ideas of the sort are not on the table for now. No ewar bonuses for MinScout? Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 346	Posted - 2014.07.15 03:49:00 - [42] - Quote Seymour KrelbornX wrote: what are you going to do about how far they can toss remotes? keep in mind with how hard they are to see already and how high they can jump and how fast they are, tossing remotes 10 meters almost undetected makes them OP... so they either need to be more easily detectable or the Frisbee mechanic needs a hard cap on how far they can be thrown. REs are equipment - they fit equipment slots. They should be placed, not thrown. If they are to be thrown like grenades, they should be moved to the grenade slot. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 346	Posted - 2014.07.15 03:57:00 - [43] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: SAIRAX SIS wrote: i agree... Cal Scout is already best Assaulting scout. (High-Shield Recharge, No movement penalty by Shield Tanking, Small Hitbox) In addition, it's that offset by new bonus, (weaknesses low slot is small) it is ABSURD. CCP was reduced Dumpting bonus to say fits becomes easy, and reducing the scan radius does not match the role of each scout when nerf Gallen te scout !!! The first place, because Gal Scout is hiding suit, I do not know the meaning to get a half-hearted Scan Precision, and do not know why to get Profile Dumpting bonus on Cal Scout. Behavior Mismatch. why? And...Scout side Though it is mandatory measures, Gal Logi is fine only with a focus scanner. OP. SIGH Assault changes are coming. Remember that. Rattati will buff the assault to make it a better choice than the scouts ( I have full faith in him. Get some assault players together and make a thread. If you are diligent in trying to improve the suit, help will come) Anyways: Cal gets dampening to help it stay hidden and provide long range, low power scans. A single damp, and a single range amp will probably be the best combo. Cal scouts scanning your med frame too much? Run a damp. 1x Damp will make you invisible to any Cal Scan or Min Scan. I suspect most Cal scouts will run 2x shields and 2x Precision. This will let them pick up any med frame not running 3x damps. However, at this point, they only have 308 shields and 87 armor. Easy prey if you catch them. Gal scouts are getting a precision bonus to make up for loss of range. It also helps stop the dual tanking problem, encouraging people to not stack HP. They are harder to detect, but do not possess the strong scans of the amarr. They can buff range a bit easier, but amarr will still win in the eWAR fight. Gal on the other hand, will still be masters of dampening, due to the huge amount of low slots and CPU/PG. You will still be a strongly damped Gal scout. It'll just take 2x damps and a cloak. Combine with the 2x precision? Wow, look! Only two slots left for HP! Notice what's happening? Passive bonuses are less attractive. You must use modules to get the best mileage out of the suit, and this cuts down on HP stacking. MinScout no haz ewar? Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 914	Posted - 2014.07.15 03:57:00 - [44] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: It will force scouts to use max dampened fits. If you can PROTECT that logi, it will severely hamper offensive scout capabilities due to the lack of HP or role bonuses they get. Will it, really? I think there's less to fear from a duvolle focused than a scout ck0 or ak0. GalLogi Duvolle Focused is 100m (nice) @ 60deg (marginal), with 7.5s active and 40s cool down (terrible). If you get scanned, you only have to survive for eight seconds to get your wave of opportunity back, unlike the permanently-on exclusion zone of an EWAR scout. Dust/Eve transfers
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1705	Posted - 2014.07.15 04:04:00 - [45] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: It will force scouts to use max dampened fits. If you can PROTECT that logi, it will severely hamper offensive scout capabilities due to the lack of HP or role bonuses they get. Will it, really? I think there's less to fear from a duvolle focused than a scout ck0 or ak0. GalLogi Duvolle Focused is 100m (nice) @ 60deg (marginal), with 7.5s active and 40s cool down (terrible). If you get scanned, you only have to survive for eight seconds to get your wave of opportunity back, unlike the permanently-on exclusion zone of an EWAR scout. This will hopefully be fixed by the removal of shared passive scans, so that either scouts need to do the hunting themselves (in low EHP fits), or need to use an active scanner to share the info with their squad, and make themselves vulnerable while informing the target. But CCP is unable to do so at this time (mentioned in the footnotes for Charlie). Knowledge is power
HowDidThatTaste Ancient Exiles. General Tso's Alliance 5109	Posted - 2014.07.15 04:05:00 - [46] - Quote Are we still ignoring that shots can be fired from cloak? This was supposed to be fixed in alpha I believe? So much effort and time spent on scouts and we can't fix this one broken mechanic that was already discussed in great detail, and was promised even before cloaks came out that they would not be able to shoot from cloak? The rest of these mechanics are nice but the huge elephant in the room is the cheapness of an alpha cloaked first shot It really makes this game cheesy
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1705	Posted - 2014.07.15 04:07:00 - [47] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: SAIRAX SIS wrote: i agree... Cal Scout is already best Assaulting scout. (High-Shield Recharge, No movement penalty by Shield Tanking, Small Hitbox) In addition, it's that offset by new bonus, (weaknesses low slot is small) it is ABSURD. CCP was reduced Dumpting bonus to say fits becomes easy, and reducing the scan radius does not match the role of each scout when nerf Gallen te scout !!! The first place, because Gal Scout is hiding suit, I do not know the meaning to get a half-hearted Scan Precision, and do not know why to get Profile Dumpting bonus on Cal Scout. Behavior Mismatch. why? And...Scout side Though it is mandatory measures, Gal Logi is fine only with a focus scanner. OP. SIGH Assault changes are coming. Remember that. Rattati will buff the assault to make it a better choice than the scouts ( I have full faith in him. Get some assault players together and make a thread. If you are diligent in trying to improve the suit, help will come) Anyways: Cal gets dampening to help it stay hidden and provide long range, low power scans. A single damp, and a single range amp will probably be the best combo. Cal scouts scanning your med frame too much? Run a damp. 1x Damp will make you invisible to any Cal Scan or Min Scan. I suspect most Cal scouts will run 2x shields and 2x Precision. This will let them pick up any med frame not running 3x damps. However, at this point, they only have 308 shields and 87 armor. Easy prey if you catch them. Gal scouts are getting a precision bonus to make up for loss of range. It also helps stop the dual tanking problem, encouraging people to not stack HP. They are harder to detect, but do not possess the strong scans of the amarr. They can buff range a bit easier, but amarr will still win in the eWAR fight. Gal on the other hand, will still be masters of dampening, due to the huge amount of low slots and CPU/PG. You will still be a strongly damped Gal scout. It'll just take 2x damps and a cloak. Combine with the 2x precision? Wow, look! Only two slots left for HP! Notice what's happening? Passive bonuses are less attractive. You must use modules to get the best mileage out of the suit, and this cuts down on HP stacking. MinScout no haz ewar? Min Scout has middle of the road EWAR, purely because of slot layout. Strengths are in it's functionallity (hacking and knifing), not EWAR capability. Knowledge is power
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1705	Posted - 2014.07.15 04:10:00 - [48] - Quote HowDidThatTaste wrote: Are we still ignoring that shots can be fired from cloak? This was supposed to be fixed in alpha I believe? So much effort and time spent on scouts and we can't fix this one broken mechanic that was already discussed in great detail, and was promised even before cloaks came out that they would not be able to shoot from cloak? The rest of these mechanics are nice but the huge elephant in the room is the cheapness of an alpha cloaked first shot It really makes this game cheesy Thought the de-cloak animation time has been reduced, mitigating the effectiveness of this? Still exists due to lag/rendering, but I haven't found this to be as much of an issue as it was originally. Obviously I still don't see scouts who de-cloak behind me, but I've noticed a diference with scrub scouts who attack head on. Knowledge is power
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers 751	Posted - 2014.07.15 04:22:00 - [49] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: SAIRAX SIS wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, after thoroughly discussing with the scout community, these are our proposed changes. EWAR Calculations Gal Scout unnecessary Precision bonus. Gal Scout needs Profile Dumpting -5%/lv only. they are Spy. arenot Recon. CCP Rattati wrote: Cat Merc wrote: So why are Gallente getting precision? Can someone explain to me the thinking here? What will its effects be? so it can get decent precision with their 2H slots, if that's what they want. Its a supplementary second skill to make sure all of them have two and to even the playing field. that's also why cal is getting a dampening bonus. As you can see, caldari also get a bit of dampening bonus. I think it gives them both a role while not getting too crazy or unbalanced. Plus like moody said, it gives them something to fill up all those slots with other than shield/armor tank. Well, no, Caldari don't just get "a bit of a dampening bonus" they get the same exact dampening bonus as the Gallente (who were supposed to be the sneaky scouts). And the Gallente get a minor precision bonus that is overshadowed by the Amarr scout's better bonus and the Caldari scout's 4 high slots. So, basically, the Gallente scout ends up being a lukewarm middleground with no particular role for itself. Also, PLEASE don't nerf the Range Amplifiers, at least not drastically, before you see the effects of all these other changes. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 6538	Posted - 2014.07.15 04:37:00 - [50] - Quote All scouts can get under the focused scan dB by using a cloak, exception Gallente not needing cloak. Hey, this was in your original post, this is what people want, this is the way it needs to be. Rattati, please ou may think it looks "Fair" and I'm sure you have the best intentions but please listen to the people that actually play the game on a regular bases. This is not a good idea. Making things more generalized and middle ground is the last thing this game needs more of, sadly it's what you guys think is the answer for most things. Very big mistake. Just please don't do it Rattati, for all of us. see you space cowboy...

RedPencil Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 46	Posted - 2014.07.15 04:43:00 - [51] - Quote @CCP Rattati Thx you very much to take time and afford to look deep in scout and NK The scout propose looks good. One concern is 360 spin bug. I'm not sure if CCP fix it yet, someone told me that it is still possible but tricky to do spin 270+ degree scans. NK damage for std look solid. However, little increase in range still need as current second swing often miss when enemy is running aways. *Could you explain the mechanic of Aim Adhesion. Will it work like aim bot or difference? Will it give a benefit only for dual shock or work with all input methods? Beware paper cut M[;..;]M
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6300	Posted - 2014.07.15 05:26:00 - [52] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Will have to see how the rise of the Gal logi pans out. It's possible that it will end up being exploited again (4 x proto focused scanners while standing next to a supply depo to swap out for another suit with 4 scanners), but it should only see limited play in Pubs. Should. Pro players love them crutches... Don't think it's going to be doing much 'Rising', based on initial impression. Knowing in the back of the mind that any and all Scouts can get underneath it makes me question why I'd even bother in the first place when there are scanners that are better used for general purpose, in which case (if I were a ground commander) I'd just tell the Gal Logi to focus on supporting the team and use an Amarr Scout instead due to it being entirely passive, since we're taking the 'we'll fix it later' approach with squad-shared passive scans. Everything should have it's counter but in this case, the Gallente Logistics has four counters on top of everything else on the battlefield, with one Scout being able to do his job with comparative - if not better - results until squad-shared vision is resolved. The problem isn't changing: Either Scouts will always be able to be scanned, and feel like there's no point... or Scouts will always be able to NOT be scanned and there's no point. It's always going to be the same argument until we introduce a level of uncertainty into the mix by changing game mechanics, essentially doing it (in my opinion) the way it should have been done from the beginning. Very early on, players were suggesting that you should be able to defeat the TacNet scan system -or- visual identification; one or the other. Now, we've decided to go against that ideal, suggesting there's more merit in designing directly to not only allow but encourage the use of both. I understand the logic, I understand the premise - we want more variety in the Scout play without one being substantially better than the others because of it's low profile (Gallente) but in doing this, all Scouts now have an option to circumvent the scanning mechanic, leaving the Gallente Logi in a sort of limbo where his dedicated support role is lacking the capability to counter four entire suits - suits his entire role is designed to combat - while he has to worry about everything else on the battlefield. A solution that could have potentially been easier to reach by changing the Gallente Logi and/or Active Scanners, though I suspect either change would only decrease the viability and usage of the Gallente Logi, by contrast. Ghost Kaisar wrote: It will force scouts to use max dampened fits. If you can PROTECT that logi, it will severely hamper offensive scout capabilities due to the lack of HP or role bonuses they get. At that point, it becomes the scouts job to damp below scanning and attempt to take out the Logi. Teamwork will be a considerable help in this. Remember, we can still scan that logi with passives, so we will have to hunt him down and kill him wherever he is. Gallente Logi has to make a lot of sacrifices to deter scouts what with Focused scanners having a 40s cooldown and a visibility of 8s. In order to make up for those numbers, you'd have to have four scanners and be constantly scanning - that's essentially taking the Logi out of the fight entirely and just turning him into a mobile radar; a liability. Even then, every single scout could just switch to their max EWAR fit to compensate and the sacrifice is meaningless. But yanno, I'm willing to try anything once. Just don't think it's going to work out as well as you think it will Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Zelda Harkinian Isuuaya Tactical Caldari State 95	Posted - 2014.07.15 05:34:00 - [53] - Quote oh wow! Thanks Rattati! there was a lot of doom and gloom about the CalScout but this is more than ok!! I love how our bonuses give us some breathing room so we don't have to rely so much on low slot modules (considering we have crappy low slots). And I'm not worried about losing precision because we have the high slots to stack precision mods. So thank you thank you thank you. (^_^ )
Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 3614	Posted - 2014.07.15 06:41:00 - [54] - Quote This is... meh Run, hide in fear while you can for the Amarr Scout is on the hunt! The eyes of God compelles you!!!
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3438	Posted - 2014.07.15 06:53:00 - [55] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: . . . If you do not run in organized squads, these changes will not affect you unless you are a scout, in which case you should see the logic in the proposal. . . . This is a pretty important aspect. If you're running 6-person squads there changes aren't going to change anything other than get a Gal-Logi to join your proto-bear squad. Scouts will be the most affected by it because it reduces the Scout vs Scout attrition. The reduction in the power of constant scout scans means the number of dampeners needed dropped from 3 to 2, making the Min Scout viable in competitive/full-proto play. The Amarr Scout will keep things honest. So will the Gal, to a lesser extent, and the Cal can match the Gal but at a cost. And what we mean when we say honest is that it behooves the scouts to run more than 1 dampener in the low slot preventing armor tanking. Here ya go, kids. My pre-charlie Gal Logi. http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/161/5442 Just to get under the proxi scanner the scout needs to have at least 2 dampeners or a proto dampener and proto cloak. it causes optimization attrition. There becomes 3 levels of what you need to do, (1) beat a gal proto scanner or Gal and Cal max precision (2) Beat an Amarr Scout and (3) beat the gal-focused scanner. (1) Gal Logi: 1 EQ at 35 CPU, 7PG; 21 dB Gal scout: 2 HS at 26CPU each; 21 db (2) Cal Scout: 4 HS at 26CPU each; 20 dB (3) AM Scout: 2 HS at 26CPU each; 18 dB (4) Gal Logi: 1 EQ at 29CPU, 14PG The first and second value a Min or Amarr needs to sacrifice 2 low slots For the first value a Cal and Gal both need a complex dampener, but for the second they need either a second dampener or an ADV cloak. For the third value the Min and Amarr need 2 dampeners and an ADV cloak. The thrid value the Gal and Cal need 2 dampeners For the fourth value the Min and Amarr need 3 dampeners and a PRO cloak The fourth value the Cal needs 2 dampeners and a PRO cloak The final value, the Gal Scout needs either 2 dampeners and a PRO cloak or 3 Dampeners. The only real change here is that the Caldari can participate in Stealth instead of having both the weakest dampening and the strongest scanning. Zaria Min Deir wrote: Well, no, Caldari don't just get "a bit of a dampening bonus" they get the same exact dampening bonus as the Gallente (who were supposed to be the sneaky scouts). And the Gallente get a minor precision bonus that is overshadowed by the Amarr scout's better bonus and the Caldari scout's 4 high slots. So, basically, the Gallente scout ends up being a lukewarm middleground with no particular role for itself. Also, PLEASE don't nerf the Range Amplifiers, at least not drastically, before you see the effects of all these other changes. You're definitely underestimating the freedom fitting that the Gal has to choose between 3 damps or a pro cloak. Even with a 75% reduction to fitting cost the Cloak has a greater PG cost than any other EQ (granted it is onle 1 PG over the next) it is also the third highest CPU costing EQ. Both of those simulateosly force you into giving up modules that you would otherwise use PRO versions for if you didn't want to run the cloak. off topic, wth though, why is the Cloak a Caldari module? It should be made by Duvolle Labs considering that Duvolle provided half the contributions for cloaking technology and the corp that provided the other half doesn't exist in DUST. On the Range Amps though. Yeah, reducing the value of range amps really just hurts Logistics that want to use EWAR. For the EWAR Logi the change in scout profile going from 5 db difference to 10 db difference already hurt them from 1.7 to present. No need to hurt them further. Now that that's over, shoo Zaria, shoo. leave the scout stuff to us. Go campaign for a better Logistics bonuses to be all encompassing instead of single racial EQ Appia Vibbia for CPM1 Personal Theme Song
Ramux PATAPON LORD-BRITISH 30	Posted - 2014.07.15 06:56:00 - [56] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: EWAR Calculations All scouts can get under the focused scan dB by using a cloak, exception Gallente not needing cloak. All scouts can get under the best passive scan dB by using 2 dampeners and cloak or 3 dampeners. Best passive at 2 precision modules is beaten by best dampener at 2 dampening modules. Dampeners have stacking penalty? It is not written in game explanations like KinCats, Stimulator or so. Please answer my question Do 1)Range Amplifiers,2)Profile Dampeners,3)Precision Enhancers has stacking penalties? Translating DUST News into Japanese.. so quickly like Scout suits.. @FPSholicsDiary
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3440	Posted - 2014.07.15 07:30:00 - [57] - Quote Ramux PATAPON wrote: Dampeners have stacking penalty? It is not written in game explanations like KinCats, Stimulator or so. Please answer my question Do 1)Range Amplifiers,2)Profile Dampeners,3)Precision Enhancers has stacking penalties? All of these have stacking penalties. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 Personal Theme Song
Crimson ShieId Psygod9 668	Posted - 2014.07.15 09:24:00 - [58] - Quote Please, oh please don't reduce the effectiveness on range amps. These things are already barely useful on anything but scouts as is, reducing them will not only likely encourage a lesser variety of modules on suits, but will further restrict the possibility of other suit types actually using them. Nova Knives are best sidearm.
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers 752	Posted - 2014.07.15 09:24:00 - [59] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Now that that's over, shoo Zaria, shoo. leave the scout stuff to us. Go campaign for a better Logistics bonuses to be all encompassing instead of single racial EQ. Amarr Scout with 2 precision, 1 range, 3 plates, rep tool and allotek nanohive is still better than a support choice because it can use the hives and rep tool just as well as a Gal-Logi. That's not a fault of the scout but the fact that logistics are lacking. Oh right, I forgot, people who who aren't part of your little clique of "real" scouts aren't allowed to have ANY opinion about the scout suits... Also, you're the only one of the two of us that needs to campaign for anything, sweetie. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6302	Posted - 2014.07.15 09:39:00 - [60] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: off topic, wth though, why is the Cloak a Caldari module? It should be made by Duvolle Labs considering that Duvolle provided half the contributions for cloaking technology and the corp that provided the other half doesn't exist in DUST. On the Range Amps though. Yeah, reducing the value of range amps really just hurts Logistics that want to use EWAR. For the EWAR Logi the change in scout profile going from 5 db difference to 10 db difference already hurt them from 1.7 to present. No need to hurt them further. Now that that's over, shoo Zaria, shoo. leave the scout stuff to us. Go campaign for a better Logistics bonuses to be all encompassing instead of single racial EQ. Amarr Scout with 2 precision, 1 range, 3 plates, rep tool and allotek nanohive is still better than a support choice because it can use the hives and rep tool just as well as a Gal-Logi. That's not a fault of the scout but the fact that logistics are lacking. I don't think the racial/corporation make of the equipment even matters. It's cosmetic and arbitrary by itself but beyond that there have been equipment pieces in the past (closed beta) that existed to give evidence to just how arbitrary it was. CreoDron Drop Uplinks, Viziam Repair Tools, etc. It's a title, a name-change, if anything. As far as the range amps... I'd like to see the data as to how many Logistics actually use range amps for any reason other than it was the only thing they could fit at the time. Shooing away a player who disagreed with you kinda [redacted] me off, especially coming from someone who said in the Dust-match that only the community's opinion should be taken into account... Ignoring that obvious attack on character, however, I'd like to know what you intend to do if anything about the "lacking" Gallente Logistics is changed to accommodate better bonuses. How unfortunate it would be, if after all this work, the Gallente Logistics was buffed. Though, I am glad that you see an obvious flaw in the Gal Logi/Amarr Scout balance... Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1

shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 2465	Posted - 2014.07.15 09:41:00 - [61] - Quote My opinion is already known, this system let the door open, a scout (depending on its slot layout) can be very good in a EW stats that is not his bonus, this choice is not wrong and it balances the scout vs scout, but it's unfair with other frames, scout have the superiority in too many specs: EW, hacking, biotics, regen buffer. Sentinels have the superiority in eHP and this put them on a good playing field, but medium frame suits? A system with closed doors and different base stats would have been better imo, let the scout have the superiority only on one aspect of EW, be decent on another and have a medium frame suit value on the worst aspect of EW. Regarding codebreakers, I think they should move on high slot even if not necessary, only to help diversity, remember that not only scout can hack the objectives, i would be happy to put them on my high slot in my logi, right now i can choose between: shield (probably best choice) or nerfed damage mod (quite useless if you compare pg/cpu cost with advantages). PSN: ogamega "Dust is full of communist who despise people with enough isk to buy expensive items"
Ryme Intrinseca The Rainbow Effect Dark Taboo 1502	Posted - 2014.07.15 09:59:00 - [62] - Quote BlazeXYZ wrote: What is the purpose of giving the caldari scout 3% profile per level.? Because otherwise it would be pretty useless. Radius is unnecessary for most scouting roles, at least with the dampening there is some point to the caldari suit.
Ryme Intrinseca The Rainbow Effect Dark Taboo 1502	Posted - 2014.07.15 10:19:00 - [63] - Quote I put 5.5 million SP into the two scout suits with the best scan (Caldari and Gallente). You are now proposing to ignore that investment and make the Amarr the only dedicated scan scout, when it previously had no scan focus. There was never any hint of this previously and it makes no sense from a lore perspective. It is a shameless PTW tactic - devalue SP investments so people have to buy boosters to get back the capability they used to have. But do you really think you'll keep players when you disregard their decisions? Persistence is supposed to be the selling point of the game FFS. I usually laugh at respec suggestions but there is strong case where you decide to reverse the effects of people's decisions, as here.
Macchi00 LORD-BRITISH 99	Posted - 2014.07.15 10:50:00 - [64] - Quote I think C-Scout scam radius should be 15%/Lv. 10% is too low. I love ForgeGun. I made ForgeGun montage in YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIhuGxfbjSQ
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 673	Posted - 2014.07.15 10:53:00 - [65] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: It has way too many advantages towards slaying for a scout. Scouts already have a small hitbox, lower profile, and faster movement speed. Allowing the Caldari one to also have the best regeneration of any suit, a huge amount of fitting space, and high HP values with barely any penalty is just silly. I'm also concerned about the fact that Scouts are receiving a significant buff here. Consider e.g. that Assaults will need two dampeners to hide from base Gallente and Amarr scans. This equals not using dampeners but rather using another Scout for your assaulting. One way to go about it is to adjust the Medium suit's scan stats too. I'll bring this up when we start discussing that topic. Otherwise I'm fine with the Scout-vs-Scout interaction here. Still hoping for that scan range reduction, preferably to base scan range rather than module efficacy. Powerful eWar modules are good because every eWar module equipped is one hp-module less. Powerful base stats are bad because they are a buff to brick tanked Scouts.
501st Headstrong G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 282	Posted - 2014.07.15 11:04:00 - [66] - Quote 1) By Cloak, does that mean a proto one? 2) The Amarr can scan 18Db at 86 meters ( that is not SHORT range as I recall) 3) It takes 3x dampeners to hide from a Cal Scout with any additional precision....But my Min Assault only has 2 lows. And regardless of what people say, scouts ARE hard to kill, especially Caldari ones. I'm not saying they glitch or their hitbox is weird, but I can never seem to kill one looking at me. "Guess that's why I'm getting one on my alt" 4) This looks good sir. From the Clone Wars I came. Here, I am a man among tamed beasts, and a god...among men. CEO of G0DS AM0NG MEN
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1366	Posted - 2014.07.15 12:09:00 - [67] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, after thoroughly discussing with the scout community, these are our proposed changes. EWAR Calculations I have documented all the necessary and relevant scenarios, I hope. At the top of the document, I have collected the key numbers and tried to put them into perspective. Galogi focused scanner gets the highest range and precision possible, due to it being 1) active, 2) narrow and 3) having a limited duration. This helps establish boundaries that scouts need to live within. That said, by a combination of racial bonuses and dedication of slots All scouts can have similar range, 76m to 91, under the Focused at 100m. This is under review, and I am looking at reducing Range amplifiers to 30% instead of the current 45%. All scouts can get under the focused scan dB by using a cloak, exception Gallente not needing cloak. All scouts can get under the best passive scan dB by using 2 dampeners and cloak or 3 dampeners. Best passive at 2 precision modules is beaten by best dampener at 2 dampening modules. Minmatar get a small PG boost, and all scouts can utilize a very slight PG reduction of KinCats andCodebreakers, possibly Nova Knifes. Nova Knifes will get increased Aim Adhesion, making hit detection work a little better in close quarters, a damage boost 120/160/200 and possibly a little increase in aim, 2.00m to 2.25m OR 2.50m This does not require Codebreakers to be in high, so don't assume that is the case. Please keep your comments civil and on topic. Changing bonuses to module efficacy or other ideas of the sort are not on the table for now. No ewar bonuses for MinScout? Nope. Min scout continues to have no eWar I really think a bonus to cloak dampening would be in order for the min scout "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. Kills-Archduke Ferd1nand
Varoth Drac The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 174	Posted - 2014.07.15 12:14:00 - [68] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: It has way too many advantages towards slaying for a scout. Scouts already have a small hitbox, lower profile, and faster movement speed. Allowing the Caldari one to also have the best regeneration of any suit, a huge amount of fitting space, and high HP values with barely any penalty is just silly. I'm also concerned about the fact that Scouts are receiving a significant buff here. Consider e.g. that Assaults will need two dampeners to hide from base Gallente and Amarr scans. This equals not using dampeners but rather using another Scout for your assaulting. One way to go about it is to adjust the Medium suit's scan stats too. I'll bring this up when we start discussing that topic. Otherwise I'm fine with the Scout-vs-Scout interaction here. Still hoping for that scan range reduction, preferably to base scan range rather than module efficacy. Powerful eWar modules are good because every eWar module equipped is one hp-module less. Powerful base stats are bad because they are a buff to brick tanked Scouts. This is not really a buff to scouts as far as mediums are concerned. Yes there are now 2 scout types that will require more than one damp for meds to avoid, but since min scouts will be more common the total number of precision scouts on the field may well decrease. The Caldari scan range will be buffed which is a concern for med frames (personally I feel 7% rather than 10% would be more balanced but I don't want to complicate things) but the killer combination of a precision and range bonus together is gone (not on any suit), so you will probably be able to damp below them.
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 3539	Posted - 2014.07.15 13:10:00 - [69] - Quote WTF? You are giving caldari scouts scan range+dampening capabilitys? Havent you learned it from the past that this combination is what made the gallente scout ridiculous? They where capable to hide and prey on everything except other scout suits. Its even worse because caldai scouts are shield tanked and are quicker then a armor tanked gallente scout. And why are gallente and amarr sharing the same precision category? 2% precision bonus is just a wasted bonus i would rather keep my 1% scan range bonus or i would like to have 2-3% hacking speed from the minmatarr. To be honest you should give bonuses like this: -amarr: precision+stamina -caldari: range+stamina -gallante: dampening+hacking -minmatarr: hacking+knifes This way you wont create too many overlapping specialisations. Amarr would be good at finding cloaked/dampened players, caldari have their long range scans, gallente are still remaining the sneaking role with a minor hacking speed increase and the minnies slice people up and have super fast hacks. In my opinion because amarr+caldari are allies they should have 1 bonus which mimics the other race and that is stamina. The minmatarr would help out the gallente by providing hacking tech which makes more sense cause codebreakers are beeing moved to highslots.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2805	Posted - 2014.07.15 13:13:00 - [70] - Quote Brokerib wrote: HowDidThatTaste wrote: Are we still ignoring that shots can be fired from cloak? This was supposed to be fixed in alpha I believe? So much effort and time spent on scouts and we can't fix this one broken mechanic that was already discussed in great detail, and was promised even before cloaks came out that they would not be able to shoot from cloak? The rest of these mechanics are nice but the huge elephant in the room is the cheapness of an alpha cloaked first shot It really makes this game cheesy Thought the de-cloak animation time has been reduced, mitigating the effectiveness of this? Still exists due to lag/rendering, but I haven't found this to be as much of an issue as it was originally. Obviously I still don't see scouts who de-cloak behind me, but I've noticed a diference with scrub scouts who attack head on. It was substantially reduced; if I recall correctly, decloak animation was accelerated. Can't speak for everyone else, but I've not been hit by an invisible shooter since Alpha. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2807	Posted - 2014.07.15 13:40:00 - [71] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: When I was told that Caldari and Gallente Logis would no longer the very best at everything, I asked myself "which suit will be capable of supporting my mad slayer skillz?" On respec, I put 5.5 million SP into the two scout suits with the best chance of becoming FoTM (Caldari and Gallente). You are now proposing to ignore that investment and make the Amarr and Minmatar Scouts useful, when they previously had no use whatsoever. There was never any hint that the four Scout suits might become balanced, and it makes no sense to make them balanced now. It is a shameless PTW tactic - take away one FoTM and its SP investment so people have to buy boosters to be first into the next FoTM. But do you really think players will continue to chase FoTM when you disregard their decisions? Persistence is supposed to be the selling point of the game. FFS give me back my Flaylock. I usually laugh at respec suggestions but there is strong case where you decide to move L33T slayers like me from one frame to another. FTFY Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2813	Posted - 2014.07.15 14:05:00 - [72] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: It has way too many advantages towards slaying for a scout. Scouts already have a small hitbox, lower profile, and faster movement speed. Allowing the Caldari one to also have the best regeneration of any suit, a huge amount of fitting space, and high HP values with barely any penalty is just silly. I'm also concerned about the fact that Scouts are receiving a significant buff here. Consider e.g. that Assaults will need two dampeners to hide from base Gallente and Amarr scans. This equals not using dampeners but rather using another Scout for your assaulting. One way to go about it is to adjust the Medium suit's scan stats too. I'll bring this up when we start discussing that topic. Otherwise I'm fine with the Scout-vs-Scout interaction here. Still hoping for that scan range reduction, preferably to base scan range rather than module efficacy. Powerful eWar modules are good because every eWar module equipped is one hp-module less. Powerful base stats are bad because they are a buff to brick tanked Scouts. The Scout Community is seeking a much needed fix to assault-lite and has high hopes of moving FoTM "slayers" away from our frames. Sorry "slayers" :-) We do not view Rattati's proposal as a buff to our class. We see this proposal as a first step in the right direction. Should "assault lite" remain a problem post Charlie, we hope that in Delta Rattati will point our racial bonuses toward EWAR modules. When we HP-tank and pretend to be Assault, we should leave behind some of our Scoutliness. We think that Rattati shares our goal of fixing "assault lite" and we are very much excited at the prospect of it being resolved son, if not this month in Charlie than perhaps next month in Delta. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2153	Posted - 2014.07.15 14:48:00 - [73] - Quote I'd say these proposed changes are close enough to balanced that we'll need to play it for a while before changing anything based on theorycrafting. For the average pub grunt, these changes will make no difference at all. For the pub scouts there are now interesting fitting choices to make and meaningful gameplay that stems from those choices. The one change i would want to see is something that would discourage Galogis using 4 proto focused scanners and hanging out at the Supply depot. Min can now play at the ewar game, but at considerable cost. Given their other bonuses it will prolly play out ok, but i find myself wishing for fuzzyier dots on the tacnet so that Min ewar could affect not scan detection, but positional error rate/magnitude. Now that would considerably increase the FUN a precision scout would have in choosing to hunt a NK minja ;) PSN: RationalSpark
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3452	Posted - 2014.07.15 14:49:00 - [74] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Shooing away a player who disagreed with you kinda [redacted] me off, especially coming from someone who said in the Dust-match that only the community's opinion should be taken into account... Ignoring that obvious attack on character, however, I'd like to know what you intend to do if anything about the "lacking" Gallente Logistics is changed to accommodate better bonuses. How unfortunate it would be, if after all this work, the Gallente Logistics was buffed. Though, I am glad that you see an obvious flaw in the Gal Logi/Amarr Scout balance... This is still just a game. Don't take things so seriously. Someone said Gal bonus was better than the Cal, Zaria corrected them informing that the bonus was the same. The only thing I disagreed with was the potency of the gal scout's skills. I'm talking to someone that's knows many personal things about me that have nothing to do with the game. It has more to do with the fact that I know Zaria understands that Logistics are actually lacking when it comes to the support role because they're so hyper-focused on a single equipment. She did a much better job articulating a nearly identical opinion I had on the current logi-bonuses back in 1.7 when 1.8 bonuses were being discussed. Charlie wants to make assaults better at Assault thing, the Logi should equally be improved at Support things Yeah, so my preferred way to improve a Logistics suit's ability to perform a support role is to give it the same bonuses the other suits have but not the full value. Pokey Dravon thinks along similar lines and has his dream-logi skills up actually having each Race with individual bonuses with different focuses but still being the best at their racial support equipment Appia Vibbia for CPM1 Personal Theme Song
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2817	Posted - 2014.07.15 14:56:00 - [75] - Quote @ Appia Aeon will not respect your ways until he is certain that you've grown a neckbeard. To give you pass simply because you're a female would be sexist. Good luck. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Zindorak CaUsE-4-CoNcErN 126	Posted - 2014.07.15 15:47:00 - [76] - Quote What's EWAR?
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 628	Posted - 2014.07.15 15:51:00 - [77] - Quote Looking over the spreadsheet and something hit me: Gallente precision is essentially pointless - you're already scanning all Heavies, Logis and Assaults, unless massive sacrifices are made and you're not scanning any good (ie, EWar dampened Scouts who are evading their nemesis the GalLogi) so...why the hell have it? The precision is nigh useless and the Gallente have to make exactly the same amount of sacrifice as Caldari to dodge the GalLogi...which is eating Gallente primary tank, but not Caldari. At the same time, Caldari is getting a brilliant bonus that still applies against all of the medium/heavy frames (ie, spotting them from a million miles away) and still getting to dodge GalLogi scans with a small sacrifice (their secondary tank) while their precision, as a Scout, is sufficiently low to scan down medium/heavy frames all day long! What I'm trying to say is that GalScout precision is essentially pointless. Caldari profile? Fair enough, it lets them actually evade the GalLogi scans, so it's needed from a numerical standpoint. But the GalScout precision is doing nothing to help where it matters. At the highest level, the Gallente precision bonus is doing nothing to help it: it's not scanning down Scouts, because all are dampened and you're already scanning down all medium and heavy frames with two Precision Enhancers. Same thing could be said for the Amarr bonus, which is essentially getting negated by the GalLogi threat causing all Scouts to dodge the Amarr precision by association. So really, what is the point of the GalScout precision bonus? The bonus to profile means that it's no longer the best at dampening (because CalScout is the same: 2 damps and a cloak) and its precision does not help. At the end of the day the issue is this: Of the Gallente still has to make a reasonable sacrifice to evade scans (ie, pretty much the same as everyone else) and it's scans are weaker than 2/3 of the others...why use Gallente? They can all evade scans (perfectly fine, they're all Scouts) but Gallente still sacrifices just as much to do so, yet receives weaker bonuses, relative to the role they play. If Gallente could dodge all scans with 2 dampeners, then they'd be much more able to fit EWar to compensate for their unbonused elements. Alt of Halla Murr.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2827	Posted - 2014.07.15 15:58:00 - [78] - Quote Zindorak wrote: What's EWAR? Its when you take the Shields and Armor off your Scout suit and use other things. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3458	Posted - 2014.07.15 16:02:00 - [79] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Zindorak wrote: What's EWAR? Its when you peel the Shields and Armor off your Scout suit to use other things lol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_warfare EWAR in DUST is really only a very small aspect of what it is IRL and what it is in EVE. For DUST players it is the attrition of modules to maintain tactical supremecy by locating enemies and remaining undetected outside of Line of Sight Appia Vibbia for CPM1 Personal Theme Song
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6309	Posted - 2014.07.15 16:14:00 - [80] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Yeah, so my preferred way to improve a Logistics suit's ability to perform a support role is to give it the same bonuses the other suits have but not the full value. Pokey Dravon thinks along similar lines and has his dream-logi skills up actually having each Race with individual bonuses with different focuses but still being the best at their racial support equipment EDIT: There we go, found it. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18i0Z93RGQbZD-_OMwXmYDJk4ORDBml5Xq_2k_4sF8UY/edit#gid=0 I disagree with the Assault part because I'm very against Assault bonuses being limited to just racial weapons, but like 85% on-board with the Logi stuff. Pretty sure all the candidates feel the same way, to some degree or another. It's one of the few things we're all fairly unanimous about, albeit I'm more of the opinion that it shouldn't be so broad spectrum. I think they'd do well with a secondary bonus alone. Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Appia Aeon will not respect your ways until he is certain that you've grown a neckbeard. To give you pass simply because you're a female would be sexist. Good luck. I won't respect anyone's ways until I'm certain they'll act professional and consistent. No-one gets a free pass on that. Albeit, the beard might help, but it'll never be as manly as mine. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1

Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3467	Posted - 2014.07.15 16:20:00 - [81] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Albeit, the beard might help, but it'll never be as manly as mine. For the record. Amadi's beard makes him look like he's one of the people from the History Channel's reality TV shows, like Swamp People or moonshiners. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 Personal Theme Song
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6310	Posted - 2014.07.15 16:44:00 - [82] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Albeit, the beard might help, but it'll never be as manly as mine. For the record. Amadi's beard makes him look like he's one of the people from the History Channel's reality TV shows, like Swamp People or moonshiners. In my defense, I do live in Louisiana. But trust me when I say that I at least have a concept of basic algebra and the people from the History Channel reality shows are a shame amongst the bearded community. We've long since out-casted them. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 2596	Posted - 2014.07.15 16:55:00 - [83] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: bogeyman m wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, after thoroughly discussing with the scout community, these are our proposed changes. EWAR Calculations I have documented all the necessary and relevant scenarios, I hope. At the top of the document, I have collected the key numbers and tried to put them into perspective. Galogi focused scanner gets the highest range and precision possible, due to it being 1) active, 2) narrow and 3) having a limited duration. This helps establish boundaries that scouts need to live within. That said, by a combination of racial bonuses and dedication of slots All scouts can have similar range, 76m to 91, under the Focused at 100m. This is under review, and I am looking at reducing Range amplifiers to 30% instead of the current 45%. All scouts can get under the focused scan dB by using a cloak, exception Gallente not needing cloak. All scouts can get under the best passive scan dB by using 2 dampeners and cloak or 3 dampeners. Best passive at 2 precision modules is beaten by best dampener at 2 dampening modules. Minmatar get a small PG boost, and all scouts can utilize a very slight PG reduction of KinCats andCodebreakers, possibly Nova Knifes. Nova Knifes will get increased Aim Adhesion, making hit detection work a little better in close quarters, a damage boost 120/160/200 and possibly a little increase in aim, 2.00m to 2.25m OR 2.50m This does not require Codebreakers to be in high, so don't assume that is the case. Please keep your comments civil and on topic. Changing bonuses to module efficacy or other ideas of the sort are not on the table for now. No ewar bonuses for MinScout? Nope. Min scout continues to have no eWar I really think a bonus to cloak dampening would be in order for the min scout Cloak + one damp hides from passives Cloak + two damps hides from gallogi focused Anyone see a problem with this? I don't see any problems with Charlie as Rattati has it. We can't have everything. Now that the other suits don't have a strangle hold on us, we can knife and hack like mofos. We don't need a 3rd option, especially if it is cloak dampening bonus to make the gal dampening less attractive. It will work out. Trust me. This is how a minja feels
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 528	Posted - 2014.07.15 17:15:00 - [84] - Quote I don't know anything about scanner gameplay, but how likely is it for a Gal Logi to pick up a dedicated scout, who's doing scout things and not being part of the main force, by using the scanner with the lowest cone of vision? I just wonder because it seems like this is so hard, that it would make more sense to have this scanner as the ultimate for picking up even max dampened and cloaked scouts. Also, any news on the scan sharing thing? Because its existence affects opinions on EWAR balance.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 628	Posted - 2014.07.15 17:20:00 - [85] - Quote Reposted after Aeon/Zaria's beard discussion... Looking over the spreadsheet and something hit me: Gallente precision is essentially pointless - you're already scanning all Heavies, Logis and Assaults, unless massive sacrifices are made and you're not scanning any good (ie, EWar dampened Scouts who are evading their nemesis the GalLogi) so...why the hell have it? The precision is nigh useless and the Gallente have to make exactly the same amount of sacrifice as Caldari to dodge the GalLogi...which is eating Gallente primary tank, but not Caldari. At the same time, Caldari is getting a brilliant bonus that still applies against all of the medium/heavy frames (ie, spotting them from a million miles away) and still getting to dodge GalLogi scans with a small sacrifice (their secondary tank) while their precision, as a Scout, is sufficiently low to scan down medium/heavy frames all day long! What I'm trying to say is that GalScout precision is essentially pointless. Caldari profile? Fair enough, it lets them actually evade the GalLogi scans, so it's needed from a numerical standpoint. But the GalScout precision is doing nothing to help where it matters. At the highest level, the Gallente precision bonus is doing nothing to help it: it's not scanning down Scouts, because all are dampened and you're already scanning down all medium and heavy frames with two Precision Enhancers. Same thing could be said for the Amarr bonus, which is essentially getting negated by the GalLogi threat causing all Scouts to dodge the Amarr precision by association. So really, what is the point of the GalScout precision bonus? The bonus to profile means that it's no longer the best at dampening (because CalScout is the same: 2 damps and a cloak) and its precision does not help. At the end of the day the issue is this: Of the Gallente still has to make a reasonable sacrifice to evade scans (ie, pretty much the same as everyone else) and it's scans are weaker than 2/3 of the others...why use Gallente? They can all evade scans (perfectly fine, they're all Scouts) but Gallente still sacrifices just as much to do so, yet receives weaker bonuses, relative to the role they play. If Gallente could dodge all scans with 2 dampeners, then they'd be much more able to fit EWar to compensate for their unbonused elements. Alt of Halla Murr.
Guiltless D667 44	Posted - 2014.07.15 17:49:00 - [86] - Quote Poor cal scout all that scan range but cant see any scouts A Strange Game.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2837	Posted - 2014.07.15 18:01:00 - [87] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Looking over the spreadsheet and something hit me: Gallente precision is essentially pointless - When you say pointless, do you mean +1% scan radius per level pointless or another kind of slightly better pointless? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3472	Posted - 2014.07.15 18:06:00 - [88] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: . . . Zaria's beard . . . Appia Vibbia for CPM1 Personal Theme Song
SILENTSAM 69 SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION 701	Posted - 2014.07.15 18:08:00 - [89] - Quote I was all happy that this was going to be an Assault fix, but it seems it has turned into Scout tweaking. That is kind of disappointing that the Assault class is still useless. I was ready to finally use some Assault suits.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 628	Posted - 2014.07.15 18:27:00 - [90] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Looking over the spreadsheet and something hit me: Gallente precision is essentially pointless - When you say pointless, do you mean +1% scan radius per level pointless or another kind of slightly better pointless? We've taken to calling undampened Scouts "Assault Lite". With only one precision enhancer, the GalScout can join in on the hunting (at 26dB and above). Soon the CalScout's heavy burden of hunting "Assault Lite" will be shared by AM, CA, and GA. In my estimation, "progress" seems a more apt descriptor than "pointless". Yes, the precision bonus is better than the current, ****** range bonus. But by pointless I mean: it has zero impact on the uppermost level, and has next to no impact on any level where dampening is even vaguely used. The point is that the bonus to precision is small enough to not step on toes, but so small that it will not affect any Scout fitting a single dampener and any fitting more than one will easily evade the GalScout scans. More to the point, any going to the effort to avoid being scanned will likely fit two dampeners, rendering the GalScout bonus moot: you already scan mediums/heavies and you will not scan any Scoutly Scouts (ie, non-Brick Tanked Scouts.) So in essence, it is as useless as the range bonus we have now, because Scouts will be being pointed at EWar/dampening more heavily than before. Edit: a better summation of my point: The new GalScout precision bonus will not let you scan anything that you wouldn't scan before, because other changes make Scout dampening much more likely. Alt of Halla Murr.

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2837	Posted - 2014.07.15 18:32:00 - [91] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Yes, the precision bonus is better than the current, ****** range bonus. But by pointless I mean: it has zero impact on the uppermost level, and has next to no impact on any level where dampening is even vaguely used. The point is that the bonus to precision is small enough to not step on toes, but so small that it will not affect any Scout fitting a single dampener and any fitting more than one will easily evade the GalScout scans. More to the point, any going to the effort to avoid being scanned will likely fit two dampeners, rendering the GalScout bonus moot: you already scan mediums/heavies and you will not scan any Scoutly Scouts (ie, non-Brick Tanked Scouts.) So in essence, it is as useless as the range bonus we have now, because Scouts will be being pointed at EWar/dampening more heavily than before. Problem: More Brick-Tanked Scouts than Scoutly Scouts Solution: Equip more Scouts to hunt Brick-Tanked Scouts Outcome: More Scoutly Scouts than Brick-Tanked Scouts New Problem: 1000HP GalLogi permascanning Scoutly Scouts Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 629	Posted - 2014.07.15 18:41:00 - [92] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Problem: More Brick-Tanked Scouts than Scoutly Scouts Solution: Equip more Scouts to hunt Brick-Tanked Scouts Outcome: More Scoutly Scouts than Brick-Tanked Scouts I get that idea, and great. But a scan precision bonus to the GalScout is irrelevant in that regard. I already fit dual ADV enhancers and I detect brick tanked scouts. It takes Cal/Gal one complex dampener and Am/Min two to evade a dual complex enhancer GalScout. Considering that will drop them lower than all but the AmScout or GalLogi scans, that's not really unlikely to see...or not see as it may be! All I'm saying is that a different bonus should be considered. 2% hack speed/level wouldn't step on MinScout toes but would be much more useful. Or even upping the 1% range to 2 or 3% would give us something: Amarr low range, low precision; Caldari high range, high precision; Gallente mid range, high precision. We'd be equal with Caldari for dampening, and Amarr could tank better if it chose to, or fit range amps to match. Evidently few agree with me. Alt of Halla Murr.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 629	Posted - 2014.07.15 18:43:00 - [93] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: New Problem: 1000HP GalLogi permascanning Scoutly Scouts New Problem: Scouts now too squishy to combat Heavy Spam <------ (free tip: here's your next FotM) Scouts too squishy? Yep, that's called a trade off. They do, however, get a guaranteed first strike, since they won't get scanned, with all Scouts able to evade all scans. GalLogi cannot scan any Scout if they choose to dampen. Alt of Halla Murr.
gauntlet44 LbowDeep Heaven84 Devils General Tso's Alliance 88	Posted - 2014.07.15 18:50:00 - [94] - Quote [quote=SAIRAX And...Scout side Though it is mandatory measures, Gal Logi is fine only with a focus scanner. OP.[/quote] that 40 second wait between scans though Absorb what is useful, discard what is not, make it uniquely your own........ Bruce Lee
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2838	Posted - 2014.07.15 18:52:00 - [95] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: New Problem: 1000HP GalLogi permascanning Scoutly Scouts New Problem: Scouts now too squishy to combat Heavy Spam <------ (free tip: here's your next FotM) 1. Scouts too squishy? Yep, that's called a trade off. 2.They do, however, get a guaranteed first strike, since they won't get scanned, with all Scouts able to evade all scans. 3. GalLogi cannot scan any Scout if they choose to dampen. 1. Pirouetting Heavies are a problem; soon they'll be a less frequently countered problem. 2. First Strike only gets you so far, and First Strike is far from guaranteed. 3. Indeed; 100k suits will beat a 30k scanner provided they fill their Lows with damps. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3472	Posted - 2014.07.15 18:52:00 - [96] - Quote if 32 seconds is too long a wait just equip another one. If that is still to much just find supply depot, stand next to it, and change suits to refresh the cooldown timer Appia Vibbia for CPM1 Personal Theme Song
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 629	Posted - 2014.07.15 18:55:00 - [97] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: 1. First Strike only gets you so far, and First Strike is far from guaranteed. 2. Indeed; 100k suits will beat a 30k scanner provided they fill their Lows with damps. My point is that evading GalScout scans is: Easy, for Scouts and will commonly be done Already difficult, for mediums and will only be marginally more difficult post Charlie Irrelevantly difficult, for heavies. You've yet to really refute my point that the 2% precision/level is irrelevant considering both the current and upcoming meta. Alt of Halla Murr.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2839	Posted - 2014.07.15 19:01:00 - [98] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Evidently few agree with me. Don't get me wrong; your concerns are absolutely warranted and valid. Many of us have previously shared these concerns; some of us likely still do. We've been talking about this stuff for months ... how to "fix" Scout problems ... and we've come to recognize that there is no perfect solution. Rattati's proposal is as good as anything we've come up with to date; it addresses the majority of our core concerns and may bring our FotM to a welcome end. I say we give it a shot and hope for best. Worst case scenario, Scouts get crushed by better Assaults, Logi permascan, and endless Heavy spam. Welcome back to Hard Mode :-) Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2839	Posted - 2014.07.15 19:07:00 - [99] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: You've yet to really refute my point that the 2% precision/level is irrelevant considering both the current and upcoming meta. Incorrect. Bravo - GalScouts need 2 PEs to hunt undampened Scouts. Charlie - GalScouts need 1 PE to hunt undampened Scouts. ^ The 10% makes an easily quantified and irrefutable difference. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 629	Posted - 2014.07.15 19:07:00 - [100] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Don't get me wrong; your concerns are absolutely warranted and valid. Many of us have previously shared these concerns; some of us likely still do. We've been talking about this stuff for months ... how to "fix" Scout problems ... and we've come to recognize that there is no perfect solution. Rattati's proposal is as good as anything we've come up with to date; it addresses the majority of our core concerns and may bring our FotM to a welcome end. I say we give it a shot and hope for best. Worst case scenario, Scouts get crushed by better Assaults, Logi permascan, and endless Heavy spam. Welcome back to Hard Mode :-) Hah! I appreciate that response. I did kind of pine for the days when I started scouting, dodging around people without the cloak being around. Still, I just feel something else - small - would just be more useful. Even a 1% to hack speed would be useful, because it would still always apply to any hack without being negated by there being much bigger threats (read: everyone dampening because of AmScout/GalLogi.) I mean, I also get that the precision will be really helpful when finding all those snowflakes who run their AmScout with shields and biotics... But that just doesn't feel like a worthwhile bonus to me. Alt of Halla Murr.

RedPencil Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 48	Posted - 2014.07.15 19:10:00 - [101] - Quote @ CCP Rattati One more thing after spend sometime stare at your EWAR table. Min scout still look less attractive even for speed hacking propose when compare to Gal scout. Gal need only 2 Damp + cloak to stay invisible from anyone. That means Adv Gal will have 1 L left to fit codebreak (25% match Min bonus) or whatever they want, and they also have inner rep + 2 H for fit tank. Adv Min have only 2 L. Can hide from other scout with 2 damp but not focus scan. No inner rep and no slot to fit codebreak. *Proto Min will suffer the same, Improve from Adv but still lost to Gal. (3 Damp to be invisible and then ran out of slot) Then why bother run Min? Even will Adv level, Gal have better chance to hack, survive, better potential and option. Only one reason I can think of choice Min over Gal is just for knifing. Even Min logo have better hacking speed on base stat (Min logi 1.2 / Min scout 1.1). BTW, I'm still waiting for your answer for those questions. Beware paper cut M[;..;]M
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2839	Posted - 2014.07.15 19:16:00 - [102] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Hah! I appreciate that response. I did kind of pine for the days when I started scouting, dodging around people without the cloak being around. Still, I just feel something else - small - would just be more useful. Even a 1% to hack speed would be useful, because it would still always apply to any hack without being negated by there being much bigger threats (read: everyone dampening because of AmScout/GalLogi.) I mean, I also get that the precision will be really helpful when finding all those snowflakes who run their AmScout with shields and biotics... But that just doesn't feel like a worthwhile bonus to me. Charlie won't the be end. If it goes badly, we'll have basis to ask for specific, small improvements. If it goes well, we'll pat Rattati on the back for having chased away the FotM chasers who presently defile our proud frames. Either you, you will the narrative here; you should swing by sometime and introduce yourself to the guys. o7 Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 2603	Posted - 2014.07.15 19:21:00 - [103] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Evidently few agree with me. Don't get me wrong; your concerns are absolutely warranted and valid. Many of us have previously shared these concerns; some of us likely still do. We've been talking about this stuff for months ... how to "fix" Scout problems ... and we've come to recognize that there is no perfect solution. Rattati's proposal is as good as anything we've come up with to date; it addresses the majority of our core concerns and may bring our FotM to a welcome end. I say we give it a shot and hope for best. Worst case scenario, Scouts get crushed by better Assaults, Logi permascan, and endless Heavy spam. Welcome back to Hard Mode :-) Gal scouts aren't given precision to be scout hunters, they are given precision to keep undampened scouts or mediums under control. Amarr scouts are there to make sure scouts are really dampened. Gal Logi scanners are there to make sure scouts are max dampened and carrying a cloak. This is how a minja feels
RedPencil Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 49	Posted - 2014.07.15 19:23:00 - [104] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Heavy Spam <------ (free tip: here's our next FotM) Is that already happening Beware paper cut M[;..;]M
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 2603	Posted - 2014.07.15 19:25:00 - [105] - Quote RedPencil wrote: @ CCP Rattati One more thing after spend sometime stare at your EWAR table. Min scout still look less attractive even for speed hacking propose when compare to Gal scout. Gal need only 2 Damp + cloak to stay invisible from anyone. That means Adv Gal will have 1 L left to fit codebreak (25% match Min bonus) or whatever they want, and they also have inner rep + 2 H for fit tank. Adv Min have only 2 L. Can hide from other scout with 2 damp but not focus scan. No inner rep and no slot to fit codebreak. *Proto Min will suffer the same, Improve from Adv but still lost to Gal. (3 Damp to be invisible and then ran out of slot) Then why bother run Min? Even will Adv level, Gal have better chance to hack, survive, better potential and option. Only one reason I can think of choice Min over Gal is just for knifing. Even Min logo have better hacking speed on base stat (Min logi 1.2 / Min scout 1.1). BTW, I'm still waiting for your answer for those questions. Good idea to look out for. Someone should look up the numbers. I would also suggest that maybe the Gal might not have the fitting capability to run all that, but I can't say for certain. It is a good point, and someone with better knowledge of the numbers should double check. This is how a minja feels
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2841	Posted - 2014.07.15 19:27:00 - [106] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Gal Logi scanners are more likely than not going to cause balance problems. We're going along with it for now because we can't prove that something's a problem until Nyain San has spammed the sh*t out of it for 3 months. FTFY :-) Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
RedPencil Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 49	Posted - 2014.07.15 19:31:00 - [107] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Still, I just feel something else - small - would just be more useful. Even a 1% to hack speed would be useful, because it would still always apply to any hack without being negated by there being much bigger threats (read: everyone dampening because of AmScout/GalLogi.) Hacking bonus, seriously? Please take sometime and compare Min who supported to be speed hack to ghost Gal. Who look more valid? But if you still think Min, go read this. Beware paper cut M[;..;]M
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers 757	Posted - 2014.07.15 19:59:00 - [108] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Reposted after Aeon/Zaria's beard discussion... Hey now, I had nothing to do with that conversation! FFS, first I get people insinuating Jenza and I are the same person, now I'm getting confused for Appia? And. Appia Vibbia wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: . . . Zaria's beard . . . Context. It matters. :P Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
iKILLu osborne Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 77	Posted - 2014.07.15 19:59:00 - [109] - Quote well i'm still upset about my precision on my cal scout being messed with, but dampening can free up a low slot so here is my new ewar fit :2 complex precision, 2 complex shields,1 complex dampener,1 complex range(or kincat), cr3 shotgun, smg,flux grenade,arn cloak,remote explosive. thoughts? suggestions? if codebreakers make it to highslots you know what that means here is a joke, so an amarr scout walks in lol after charlie it will be"oh shlt a amarr scout walked in"
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 630	Posted - 2014.07.15 20:25:00 - [110] - Quote Sorry Zaria! @RedPencil, yeah, I agree that Minmatar could do with some help: NK is cool,but not really necessary for being a scout. They can keep it and get a whole extra bonus, it wouldn't make them OP. I just want to see that Gallente precision bonus be useful. Alt of Halla Murr.

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2858	Posted - 2014.07.15 20:38:00 - [111] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: I agree that Minmatar could do with some help ... If the Minmatar Scout continues to perform poorly, perhaps we could ask Rattati to make it ever-so-slightly faster. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3479	Posted - 2014.07.15 21:14:00 - [112] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Reposted after Aeon/Zaria's beard discussion... Hey now, I had nothing to do with that conversation! FFS, first I get people insinuating Jenza and I are the same person, now I'm getting confused for Appia? And. Appia Vibbia wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: . . . Zaria's beard . . . Context. It matters. :P Everyone knows there's only 1 female DUST player that just happens to have lots of alts and good at using different accents. Deal with it. People have been mixing up our three names for the past 8 months. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 Personal Theme Song
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1729	Posted - 2014.07.15 23:09:00 - [113] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Sorry Zaria! @RedPencil, yeah, I agree that Minmatar could do with some help: NK is cool,but not really necessary for being a scout. They can keep it and get a whole extra bonus, it wouldn't make them OP. I just want to see that Gallente precision bonus be useful. I disagree. The nova knife is essential to being a scout Rattati had mentiond a possible speed increase for the min. Combined with the possibility of moving code breakers to high and the ability to actually damp, and we end up in a fairly reasonable place. The min scout, with the highest alpha damage potential of any suit, shouldn't have too many advantages. Nova knife spam would be a thing of horror...and possibly comedy And you never know, the request we made for nova knives to do half damage to vehicles on a charged shot may get a look in too... Knowledge is power
killian178 S.e.V.e.N. General Tso's Alliance 32	Posted - 2014.07.15 23:54:00 - [114] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Seymour KrelbornX wrote: what are you going to do about how far they can toss remotes? keep in mind with how hard they are to see already and how high they can jump and how fast they are, tossing remotes 10 meters almost undetected makes them OP... so they either need to be more easily detectable or the Frisbee mechanic needs a hard cap on how far they can be thrown. REs are equipment - they fit equipment slots. They should be placed, not thrown. If they are to be thrown like grenades, they should be moved to the grenade slot. This Gal and amarr commando, every weapon at adv or above. Don't give a damn bout my kdr, I will kill you.
Beartrocity TeamPlayers 33	Posted - 2014.07.16 00:07:00 - [115] - Quote So thanks CCP for ruining another choice I made! You tell us to spend points wisely then you ***** change **. Kota's Tank Rager
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3487	Posted - 2014.07.16 00:15:00 - [116] - Quote >_> You guys do know a Cal-Scout is now in the same state it was pre-Alpha changes to the cloak, right? 4x Precision Enhancer take the same number of modules from than and for these charlie numbers. The Cal-Scout's ablitity to dampen is returned to that pre-Alpha state. For Charlie you're even getting a range buff. You had a precision buff for 2 months and now it's going back to the way it was. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 Personal Theme Song
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 919	Posted - 2014.07.16 00:19:00 - [117] - Quote So a ck0 with 4 extenders + 2 damps and cloak is the new light assault? Dust/Eve transfers
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3497	Posted - 2014.07.16 00:29:00 - [118] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: So a ck0 with 4 extenders + 2 damps and cloak is the new light assault? Seriously!? You say this like it wasn't a thing for the 4 months before the hotfixes started and cloaks' dampening got nerfed. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 Personal Theme Song
Hawkin P Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 445	Posted - 2014.07.16 01:16:00 - [119] - Quote If you are changing what dropsuit actually do you are going to have to offer a suit respect. I know I wouldn't of ever skilled into Amarr Logi if it didn't have a sidearm, or caldari scout if it didn't have a precision bonus. We are talking about almost 3mil SP for each of these suits. If that happens I am fine with it.
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3500	Posted - 2014.07.16 01:21:00 - [120] - Quote Hawkin P wrote: If you are changing what dropsuit actually do you are going to have to offer a suit respect. I know I wouldn't of ever skilled into Amarr Logi if it didn't have a sidearm, or caldari scout if it didn't have a precision bonus. We are talking about almost 3mil SP for each of these suits. If that happens I am fine with it. Caldari scout can still perform the role of Med Frame spotters in PC. If a scout could avoid Cal-Scout scans before they'll still avoid cal-scout scans now. Cal-Scout did a good job of keeping other scouts to few armor plates. They can still have the same effect of low slot module cost. They've even become better at scanning the Assaults, Logistics, Sentinels, and Commandos. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 Personal Theme Song

Terram Nenokal Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 357	Posted - 2014.07.16 01:40:00 - [121] - Quote These are great! I'm looking forward to seeing the assault numbers.
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 1368	Posted - 2014.07.16 04:10:00 - [122] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, after thoroughly discussing with the scout community, these are our proposed changes. EWAR Calculations I have documented all the necessary and relevant scenarios, I hope. At the top of the document, I have collected the key numbers and tried to put them into perspective. Galogi focused scanner gets the highest range and precision possible, due to it being 1) active, 2) narrow and 3) having a limited duration. This helps establish boundaries that scouts need to live within. That said, by a combination of racial bonuses and dedication of slots All scouts can have similar range, 76m to 91, under the Focused at 100m. This is under review, and I am looking at reducing Range amplifiers to 30% instead of the current 45%. All scouts can get under the focused scan dB by using a cloak, exception Gallente not needing cloak. All scouts can get under the best passive scan dB by using 2 dampeners and cloak or 3 dampeners. Best passive at 2 precision modules is beaten by best dampener at 2 dampening modules. Minmatar get a small PG boost, and all scouts can utilize a very slight PG reduction of KinCats andCodebreakers, possibly Nova Knifes. Nova Knifes will get increased Aim Adhesion, making hit detection work a little better in close quarters, a damage boost 120/160/200 and possibly a little increase in aim, 2.00m to 2.25m OR 2.50m This does not require Codebreakers to be in high, so don't assume that is the case. Please keep your comments civil and on topic. Changing bonuses to module efficacy or other ideas of the sort are not on the table for now. I am confused as the CAL has the same profile as GAL yet has a different dB value when damps are fitted? Because as written in that spreadsheet the CAL and GAL have the same profiles at their level 5 racial. So how is GAL going to to be a "better dampener" aka get under GAL-Logi scans easier? Please change two things as well: 1. Give scouts a cloak role bonus instead of per level bonus. 2. Give the damp bonus cloaks have to all tiers of cloak, -otherwise people can only damp with protosuits and protocloak at level 5 racial. Not good for newbros Cavats: Passive scans need to no longer be shared. That would improve quality of life greatly. Thoughts: Cal scout likely won't be running precision mods in the future. It will likely be only shield tanking. It will be able to detect most medium frames without any problems and won't have a chance to detect scouts as they only need to fit a single damp to remain under even the best CAL scans. Conclusion: Not exactly happy with scout hunter role removal of cal scout. Its being demoted to "slayer suit" that has no reason to fit its high slots for anything other than shield extenders. My Youtube Biomassed Podcast
X7 lion Inner.Hell 216	Posted - 2014.07.16 09:12:00 - [123] - Quote lion approves Hey look a distraction!
jNs Vit4l THE 300 SPARTANS 11	Posted - 2014.07.16 13:55:00 - [124] - Quote Hawkin P wrote: If you are changing what dropsuit actually do you are going to have to offer a suit respect. I know I wouldn't of ever skilled into Amarr Logi if it didn't have a sidearm, or caldari scout if it didn't have a precision bonus. We are talking about almost 3mil SP for each of these suits. If that happens I am fine with it. Yeah looking forward to get a respec for my cal scout :/ i wouldnt ever speced into cal scout if they didnt have precision bonus. CCP we need a respec for cal light frame / cal scout suits so we can choose another role since you messed up the cal scouts and CHANGED the suit''s bonus completly. CEO of The 300 Spartans! Leader FC of J PLATOON VIT4L (CFW) CALDARI LOYALIST!!!
JARREL THOMAS Dead Man's Game Dark Taboo 323	Posted - 2014.07.16 14:08:00 - [125] - Quote Seymour KrelbornX wrote: what are you going to do about how far they can toss remotes? keep in mind with how hard they are to see already and how high they can jump and how fast they are, tossing remotes 10 meters almost undetected makes them OP... so they either need to be more easily detectable or the Frisbee mechanic needs a hard cap on how far they can be thrown. I don't know what you saw but thats more like 1-3 meters 4 is pushing it :-/ Caldari Loyalist I speak for the rabbits
Bormir1r Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 497	Posted - 2014.07.16 14:33:00 - [126] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: BlazeXYZ wrote: What is the purpose of giving the caldari scout 3% profile per level.? Presently ... Extreme precision is required of the CalScout to pickup the GalScout. Extreme dampening is required of the GalScout to hide from the CalScout. The values you see are intended to draw toward the middle opposing extremes. These changes will [hopefully] make for better interplay and increased loadout variety among all four Scouts. Many of us are optimistic. The big unknown in all of this is the GalLogi. If the Precision/Scan Radius is small I think it will work...but if it's too large...then that may be a problem. "One does not simply" run like a Raptor. Only mk.0 Scouts do that.
Bormir1r Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 497	Posted - 2014.07.16 14:50:00 - [127] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: bogeyman m wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, after thoroughly discussing with the scout community, these are our proposed changes. EWAR Calculations I have documented all the necessary and relevant scenarios, I hope. At the top of the document, I have collected the key numbers and tried to put them into perspective. Galogi focused scanner gets the highest range and precision possible, due to it being 1) active, 2) narrow and 3) having a limited duration. This helps establish boundaries that scouts need to live within. That said, by a combination of racial bonuses and dedication of slots All scouts can have similar range, 76m to 91, under the Focused at 100m. This is under review, and I am looking at reducing Range amplifiers to 30% instead of the current 45%. All scouts can get under the focused scan dB by using a cloak, exception Gallente not needing cloak. All scouts can get under the best passive scan dB by using 2 dampeners and cloak or 3 dampeners. Best passive at 2 precision modules is beaten by best dampener at 2 dampening modules. Minmatar get a small PG boost, and all scouts can utilize a very slight PG reduction of KinCats andCodebreakers, possibly Nova Knifes. Nova Knifes will get increased Aim Adhesion, making hit detection work a little better in close quarters, a damage boost 120/160/200 and possibly a little increase in aim, 2.00m to 2.25m OR 2.50m This does not require Codebreakers to be in high, so don't assume that is the case. Please keep your comments civil and on topic. Changing bonuses to module efficacy or other ideas of the sort are not on the table for now. No ewar bonuses for MinScout? Nope. Min scout continues to have no eWar I really think a bonus to cloak dampening would be in order for the min scout Cloak + one damp hides from passives Cloak + two damps hides from gallogi focused Anyone see a problem with this? SIgh...apparently so because when I made a post about this, not too many people seemed to agree. "One does not simply" run like a Raptor. Only mk.0 Scouts do that.
Bormir1r Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 497	Posted - 2014.07.16 15:03:00 - [128] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Evidently few agree with me. Don't get me wrong; your concerns are absolutely warranted and valid. Many of us have previously shared these concerns; some of us likely still do. We've been talking about this stuff for months ... how to "fix" Scout problems ... and we've come to recognize that there is no perfect solution. Rattati's proposal is as good as anything we've come up with to date; it addresses the majority of our core concerns and may bring our FotM to a welcome end. I say we give it a shot and hope for best. Worst case scenario, Scouts get crushed by better Assaults, Logi permascan, and endless Heavy spam. Welcome back to Hard Mode :-) Dude I've been in hard mode with the Min Scout since I started playing this game...tell me something new lol "One does not simply" run like a Raptor. Only mk.0 Scouts do that.
Bormir1r Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 498	Posted - 2014.07.16 15:10:00 - [129] - Quote RedPencil wrote: @ CCP Rattati One more thing after spend sometime stare at your EWAR table. Min scout still look less attractive even for speed hacking propose when compare to Gal scout. Gal need only 2 Damp + cloak to stay invisible from anyone. That means Adv Gal will have 1 L left to fit codebreak (25% match Min bonus) or whatever they want, and they also have inner rep + 2 H for fit tank. Adv Min have only 2 L. Can hide from other scout with 2 damp but not focus scan. No inner rep and no slot to fit codebreak. *Proto Min will suffer the same, Improve from Adv but still lost to Gal. (3 Damp to be invisible and then ran out of slot) Then why bother run Min? Even will Adv level, Gal have better chance to hack, survive, better potential and option. Only one reason I can think of choice Min over Gal is just for knifing. Even Min logo have better hacking speed on base stat (Min logi 1.2 / Min scout 1.1). BTW, I'm still waiting for your answer for those questions. This has always been the argument for the Min, and I completely agree with you...perhaps there could be pg reductions for codebreakers and kincats exclusively for Min Scouts? "One does not simply" run like a Raptor. Only mk.0 Scouts do that.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2924	Posted - 2014.07.16 15:12:00 - [130] - Quote Bormir1r wrote: ...perhaps there could be pg reductions for codebreakers and kincats exclusively for Min Scouts? Perhaps MinScouts should be renamed "Me Me Me" Scouts :-) Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley

Bormir1r Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 499	Posted - 2014.07.16 15:22:00 - [131] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Bormir1r wrote: ...perhaps there could be pg reductions for codebreakers and kincats exclusively for Min Scouts? Perhaps MinScouts should be renamed "Me Me Me" Scouts :-) "Minimememe" Scouts =P "One does not simply" run like a Raptor. Only mk.0 Scouts do that.
HowDidThatTaste Ancient Exiles. General Tso's Alliance 5129	Posted - 2014.07.16 17:46:00 - [132] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Reposted after Aeon/Zaria's beard discussion... Hey now, I had nothing to do with that conversation! FFS, first I get people insinuating Jenza and I are the same person, now I'm getting confused for Appia? And. Appia Vibbia wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: . . . Zaria's beard . . . Context. It matters. :P Everyone knows there's only 1 female DUST player that just happens to have lots of alts and good at using different accents. Deal with it. People have been mixing up our three names for the past 8 months. All you women look and sound alike to us men.
Scheneighnay McBob Cult of Gasai 5665	Posted - 2014.07.16 18:15:00 - [133] - Quote So, what's happening to minmatar scouts with this? Currently, it seems like they're the only scouts without ewar bonuses, and that the other scouts will be able to fill the role of fast hackers. pé¦pâ+pé¦pâ½pâäpâ¬pâ¦pé¦pâ¼pâ+pâêpü»sñ¬S+ïpéè
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 2674	Posted - 2014.07.16 19:52:00 - [134] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: So, what's happening to minmatar scouts with this? Currently, it seems like they're the only scouts without ewar bonuses, and that the other scouts will be able to fill the role of fast hackers. From what I am reading on the spreadsheet: Ewar changes to the other scouts will enable the Minmatar to dampen enough to be invisible and do some hacking and knifing that since Alpha was difficult thanks to shared scanning and inability to beat Cal precision. As far as the being able to hack better, I am hoping that if they are, that they have to sacrifice all tank and dampening to do so, but it is hard to tell at this point. This is how a minja feels
Jadd Hatchen Kinda New here 619	Posted - 2014.07.16 19:54:00 - [135] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Seymour KrelbornX wrote: what are you going to do about how far they can toss remotes? keep in mind with how hard they are to see already and how high they can jump and how fast they are, tossing remotes 10 meters almost undetected makes them OP... so they either need to be more easily detectable or the Frisbee mechanic needs a hard cap on how far they can be thrown. If you are routinely getting killed by killer frisbee's, then you REALLY need to invest in some situational awareness. No he is right. RE's are NOT supposed to be throwable. They are supposed to be a charge that you SET on the ground/wall/vehicle/ceiling/etc and then leave in place. NOT a grenade!!!! But that is also off topic...
Jadd Hatchen Kinda New here 619	Posted - 2014.07.16 19:58:00 - [136] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Seymour KrelbornX wrote: what are you going to do about how far they can toss remotes? keep in mind with how hard they are to see already and how high they can jump and how fast they are, tossing remotes 10 meters almost undetected makes them OP... so they either need to be more easily detectable or the Frisbee mechanic needs a hard cap on how far they can be thrown. REs are equipment - they fit equipment slots. They should be placed, not thrown. If they are to be thrown like grenades, they should be moved to the grenade slot. ^^^^^ THIS!!!!! A hundred, thousand times this!
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 2674	Posted - 2014.07.16 19:58:00 - [137] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Seymour KrelbornX wrote: what are you going to do about how far they can toss remotes? keep in mind with how hard they are to see already and how high they can jump and how fast they are, tossing remotes 10 meters almost undetected makes them OP... so they either need to be more easily detectable or the Frisbee mechanic needs a hard cap on how far they can be thrown. If you are routinely getting killed by killer frisbee's, then you REALLY need to invest in some situational awareness. No he is right. RE's are NOT supposed to be throwable. They are supposed to be a charge that you SET on the ground/wall/vehicle/ceiling/etc and then leave in place. NOT a grenade!!!! But that is also off topic... Throw an RE, then throw a grenade. You will see a difference. The comparisons need to stop. This is how a minja feels
Jadd Hatchen Kinda New here 619	Posted - 2014.07.16 20:02:00 - [138] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: SAIRAX SIS wrote: i agree... Cal Scout is already best Assaulting scout. (High-Shield Recharge, No movement penalty by Shield Tanking, Small Hitbox) In addition, it's that offset by new bonus, (weaknesses low slot is small) it is ABSURD. CCP was reduced Dumpting bonus to say fits becomes easy, and reducing the scan radius does not match the role of each scout when nerf Gallen te scout !!! The first place, because Gal Scout is hiding suit, I do not know the meaning to get a half-hearted Scan Precision, and do not know why to get Profile Dumpting bonus on Cal Scout. Behavior Mismatch. why? And...Scout side Though it is mandatory measures, Gal Logi is fine only with a focus scanner. OP. SIGH Assault changes are coming. Remember that. Rattati will buff the assault to make it a better choice than the scouts ( I have full faith in him. Get some assault players together and make a thread. If you are diligent in trying to improve the suit, help will come) Anyways: Cal gets dampening to help it stay hidden and provide long range, low power scans. A single damp, and a single range amp will probably be the best combo. Cal scouts scanning your med frame too much? Run a damp. 1x Damp will make you invisible to any Cal Scan or Min Scan. I suspect most Cal scouts will run 2x shields and 2x Precision. This will let them pick up any med frame not running 3x damps. However, at this point, they only have 308 shields and 87 armor. Easy prey if you catch them. Gal scouts are getting a precision bonus to make up for loss of range. It also helps stop the dual tanking problem, encouraging people to not stack HP. They are harder to detect, but do not possess the strong scans of the amarr. They can buff range a bit easier, but amarr will still win in the eWAR fight. Gal on the other hand, will still be masters of dampening, due to the huge amount of low slots and CPU/PG. You will still be a strongly damped Gal scout. It'll just take 2x damps and a cloak. Combine with the 2x precision? Wow, look! Only two slots left for HP! Notice what's happening? Passive bonuses are less attractive. You must use modules to get the best mileage out of the suit, and this cuts down on HP stacking. MinScout no haz ewar? Just like the Minmatar EWAR ships in EVE, the Minmatar usually get shafted in the EWAR side of things... In EVE the Minmatar are supposed to get webbification array and laser targeting bonuses. But every race gets to have the web bonuses to certain classes of ships so that is not a Minmatar only thing. The laser targeting thing only works in tandem with another person, you light up the target and increase it's scan profile and then everyone else can see and do more damage to that target. No real equivalent in DUST right now. So I'm happy with the hacking and melee bonuses. Think of it as being able to hotwire vehicles faster than anyone else... ;)
Jadd Hatchen Kinda New here 619	Posted - 2014.07.16 20:14:00 - [139] - Quote HowDidThatTaste wrote: Are we still ignoring that shots can be fired from cloak? This was supposed to be fixed in alpha I believe? So much effort and time spent on scouts and we can't fix this one broken mechanic that was already discussed in great detail, and was promised even before cloaks came out that they would not be able to shoot from cloak? The rest of these mechanics are nice but the huge elephant in the room is the cheapness of an alpha cloaked first shot It really makes this game cheesy They "fixed" it exactly as they said they would, however it didn't solve the problem because they didn't realize that the "fix" was the wrong one... Basically we want a delay of 1or 2 seconds AFTER the cloaking graphics has finished running upon deactivation. Instead what they did (and this is from direct observation from when I play) was add a delay from when the cloak is deactivated until the next item of equipment/weapon can be used. However this does NOT take into account that the claking graphical effect may not have finished resolving itself on the victim's client side (this is the same issue of client vs. client point of view that they had with ships using jump gates in EVE prior to letting them all have a passive cloak upon jump in to let the jumper have enough time to sync up with the new system). So result is: cloaker: Has cloak active, runs up on target and presses button to ready weapon... target: Still sees cloaking effect... cloaker: Waits 1 or 2 seconds while delay is in effect... target: Still sees cloaking effect... cloaker: Finally gets to fire and does so... target: Finally sees end of cloaking effect, but also has received damage from the cloaker shooting but just doesn't know it yet... cloaker: Finishes off target. target: Begins reacting to the cloaker that is now fully visible and becomes frustrated as he's also now dead. This is is the sort of shoddy timing that also occurs with thrown RE's and other client to server to other client and back effects. This is why these types of things are complained about, because no matter what you do, they cannot be countered.
Jadd Hatchen Kinda New here 619	Posted - 2014.07.16 20:26:00 - [140] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Seymour KrelbornX wrote: what are you going to do about how far they can toss remotes? keep in mind with how hard they are to see already and how high they can jump and how fast they are, tossing remotes 10 meters almost undetected makes them OP... so they either need to be more easily detectable or the Frisbee mechanic needs a hard cap on how far they can be thrown. If you are routinely getting killed by killer frisbee's, then you REALLY need to invest in some situational awareness. No he is right. RE's are NOT supposed to be throwable. They are supposed to be a charge that you SET on the ground/wall/vehicle/ceiling/etc and then leave in place. NOT a grenade!!!! But that is also off topic... Throw an RE, then throw a grenade. You will see a difference. The comparisons need to stop. So you admit that an RE can be thrown? At least admission of the problem is the first step towards fixing it. ;)

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2970	Posted - 2014.07.16 21:23:00 - [141] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: So you admit that an RE can be thrown? At least admission of the problem is the first step towards fixing it. ;) If we're here to talk about problems, why not talk about Heavy spam? Remote Explosive usage is causally related to a steep increase in Heavy population, their resistance to locus grenades, and the new-found tendency of their teammates to "cluster" about their overly effective HMGs. The ability to toss an RE a few feet is not the reason why Ambush has degraded to "Follow the Heavy". Pardon the pun, but REs are nearly as big as other problems out there. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 2689	Posted - 2014.07.16 22:04:00 - [142] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Seymour KrelbornX wrote: what are you going to do about how far they can toss remotes? keep in mind with how hard they are to see already and how high they can jump and how fast they are, tossing remotes 10 meters almost undetected makes them OP... so they either need to be more easily detectable or the Frisbee mechanic needs a hard cap on how far they can be thrown. If you are routinely getting killed by killer frisbee's, then you REALLY need to invest in some situational awareness. No he is right. RE's are NOT supposed to be throwable. They are supposed to be a charge that you SET on the ground/wall/vehicle/ceiling/etc and then leave in place. NOT a grenade!!!! But that is also off topic... Throw an RE, then throw a grenade. You will see a difference. The comparisons need to stop. So you admit that an RE can be thrown? At least admission of the problem is the first step towards fixing it. ;) It is insane to think that the distance with which an RE is thrown is a problem. I can't toss them on top of a roof, or over a wall. Man up, they already got a timer increase. I see too many good legit heavies that know how to deal with REs to think that this is a real issue. Its only the lazy fools who don't know how to adapt that seem to have a problem. This is how a minja feels
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1764	Posted - 2014.07.16 23:34:00 - [143] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Seymour KrelbornX wrote: what are you going to do about how far they can toss remotes? keep in mind with how hard they are to see already and how high they can jump and how fast they are, tossing remotes 10 meters almost undetected makes them OP... so they either need to be more easily detectable or the Frisbee mechanic needs a hard cap on how far they can be thrown. If you are routinely getting killed by killer frisbee's, then you REALLY need to invest in some situational awareness. No he is right. RE's are NOT supposed to be throwable. They are supposed to be a charge that you SET on the ground/wall/vehicle/ceiling/etc and then leave in place. NOT a grenade!!!! But that is also off topic... Based on what? You seem to have a very firm opinion on what REs are meant to be, but I don't see any basis for it in game. We can currently throw them short distances, aided by height. But no where near the distance of a grenade, and always with a low arc. Knowledge is power
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1765	Posted - 2014.07.16 23:43:00 - [144] - Quote Bormir1r wrote: RedPencil wrote: @ CCP Rattati One more thing after spend sometime stare at your EWAR table. Min scout still look less attractive even for speed hacking propose when compare to Gal scout. Gal need only 2 Damp + cloak to stay invisible from anyone. That means Adv Gal will have 1 L left to fit codebreak (25% match Min bonus) or whatever they want, and they also have inner rep + 2 H for fit tank. Adv Min have only 2 L. Can hide from other scout with 2 damp but not focus scan. No inner rep and no slot to fit codebreak. *Proto Min will suffer the same, Improve from Adv but still lost to Gal. (3 Damp to be invisible and then ran out of slot) Then why bother run Min? Even will Adv level, Gal have better chance to hack, survive, better potential and option. Only one reason I can think of choice Min over Gal is just for knifing. Even Min logo have better hacking speed on base stat (Min logi 1.2 / Min scout 1.1). BTW, I'm still waiting for your answer for those questions. This has always been the argument for the Min, and I completely agree with you...perhaps there could be pg reductions for codebreakers and kincats exclusively for Min Scouts? I think all we need is code breakers to go to highs, and for cloaks to have a standardised profile reduction (10% at all tiers). Fitting reductions for kin cats, code breakers, and nova knives has already been flagged, along with a slight increase to PG for Min scouts. I'm happy with needing a proto Min scout to get under a proto Gal logi with a focused scanner (that's a sizeable investment on their part, and with significant limitations), but having to run proto to avoid other scouts due to the fitting costs of a top tier cloak is too much. Code breakers to high means and standardised cloak dampening bonus means I could run an Advanced Min scout with 2 x damps and an advanced or standard cloak to get under other scouts, while still having the ability to fit code breakers to get my hack on. Otherwise it must be a proto suit to a) be able to fit a proto cloak and, b) to be able to fit a hacking module while remaining passively invisible. Knowledge is power
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 351	Posted - 2014.07.17 01:10:00 - [145] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Seymour KrelbornX wrote: what are you going to do about how far they can toss remotes? keep in mind with how hard they are to see already and how high they can jump and how fast they are, tossing remotes 10 meters almost undetected makes them OP... so they either need to be more easily detectable or the Frisbee mechanic needs a hard cap on how far they can be thrown. If you are routinely getting killed by killer frisbee's, then you REALLY need to invest in some situational awareness. No he is right. RE's are NOT supposed to be throwable. They are supposed to be a charge that you SET on the ground/wall/vehicle/ceiling/etc and then leave in place. NOT a grenade!!!! But that is also off topic... Throw an RE, then throw a grenade. You will see a difference. The comparisons need to stop. "Throw" an Uplink, then throw an RE. You will see a difference. Both are EQUIPMENT. Explain. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 351	Posted - 2014.07.17 01:24:00 - [146] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: So you admit that an RE can be thrown? At least admission of the problem is the first step towards fixing it. ;) If we're here to talk about problems, why not talk about Heavy spam? Remote Explosive usage is causally related to a steep increase in Heavy population, their resistance to locus grenades, and the new-found tendency of their teammates to "cluster" about them (and their overly effective HMGs). The ability to toss an RE a few feet is not the reason why Ambush has degraded to "Follow the Heavy". If you want to talk about problems then talk about fixing them, not their side effects. I, for one, do not have an issue with REs being used. However, I do have an issue with their being thrown as far as they are. As a Logi-Bro, my awareness is focused on watching my squad's backs. (If only more people watched the Logi's back.) When I am killed by REs, it is usually from a 10m-15m distance - rarely from under 10m and occasionally from 30m+ (I'm guessing those are dropped from buildings/towers). Those are grenade distances. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 923	Posted - 2014.07.17 01:27:00 - [147] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: I, for one, do not have an issue with REs being used. However, I do have an issue with their being thrown as far as they are. Incidentally, last time I checked, proximity mines didn't get thrown anywhere near as far as remote explosives. Perhaps someone could go in-game and check? Dust/Eve transfers
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 351	Posted - 2014.07.17 01:31:00 - [148] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: bogeyman m wrote: I, for one, do not have an issue with REs being used. However, I do have an issue with their being thrown as far as they are. Incidentally, last time I checked, proximity mines didn't get thrown anywhere near as far as remote explosives. Perhaps someone could go in-game and check? You're right. They don't. But I couldn't tell you what the difference was. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 2708	Posted - 2014.07.17 01:34:00 - [149] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Seymour KrelbornX wrote: what are you going to do about how far they can toss remotes? keep in mind with how hard they are to see already and how high they can jump and how fast they are, tossing remotes 10 meters almost undetected makes them OP... so they either need to be more easily detectable or the Frisbee mechanic needs a hard cap on how far they can be thrown. If you are routinely getting killed by killer frisbee's, then you REALLY need to invest in some situational awareness. No he is right. RE's are NOT supposed to be throwable. They are supposed to be a charge that you SET on the ground/wall/vehicle/ceiling/etc and then leave in place. NOT a grenade!!!! But that is also off topic... Throw an RE, then throw a grenade. You will see a difference. The comparisons need to stop. "Throw" an Uplink, then throw an RE. You will see a difference. Both are EQUIPMENT. Explain. Throw an Uplink, then throw an Injector. Both are EQUIPMENT. Explain. This is how a minja feels
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2989	Posted - 2014.07.17 01:59:00 - [150] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: If you want to talk about problems then talk about fixing them, not their side effects. I, for one, do not have an issue with REs being used. However, I do have an issue with their being thrown as far as they are. As a Logi-Bro, my awareness is focused on watching my squad's backs. (If only more people watched the Logi's back.) When I am killed by REs, it is usually from a 10m-15m distance - rarely from under 10m and occasionally from 30m+ (I'm guessing those are dropped from buildings/towers). Those are grenade distances. No need to discuss fixing what isn't broken. Questions: When you get killed by REs, how are you measuring these distances? Isn't your "awareness focused" elsewhere? Have you watched someone toss an RE 10+ meters at you? In the time it took to travel that huge distance, you just ... stood there and watched? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley

Velociraptor antirrhopus Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 311	Posted - 2014.07.17 03:05:00 - [151] - Quote My God! I am so proud of you Rattati <3 Signature? What signature! I have no idea what you're talking about my good sir.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 352	Posted - 2014.07.17 03:09:00 - [152] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: bogeyman m wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: If you are routinely getting killed by killer frisbee's, then you REALLY need to invest in some situational awareness. No he is right. RE's are NOT supposed to be throwable. They are supposed to be a charge that you SET on the ground/wall/vehicle/ceiling/etc and then leave in place. NOT a grenade!!!! But that is also off topic... Throw an RE, then throw a grenade. You will see a difference. The comparisons need to stop. "Throw" an Uplink, then throw an RE. You will see a difference. Both are EQUIPMENT. Explain. Throw an Uplink, then throw an Injector. Both are EQUIPMENT. Explain. One is deployable. One is grafted to your hand. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 352	Posted - 2014.07.17 03:16:00 - [153] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: bogeyman m wrote: If you want to talk about problems then talk about fixing them, not their side effects. I, for one, do not have an issue with REs being used. However, I do have an issue with their being thrown as far as they are. As a Logi-Bro, my awareness is focused on watching my squad's backs. (If only more people watched the Logi's back.) When I am killed by REs, it is usually from a 10m-15m distance - rarely from under 10m and occasionally from 30m+ (I'm guessing those are dropped from buildings/towers). Those are grenade distances. No need to discuss fixing what isn't broken. Questions: 1) When you get killed by REs, how are you measuring these distances? 2) Isn't your "awareness focused" elsewhere? 3) Have you watched someone toss an RE 10+ meters at you? 4) In the time it took to travel that huge distance, you just ... stood there and watched? Answers: 1) The same way I get distance intel on any death - via the 'you got killed by' window. 2) Yes. 3) No. 4) See answers to questions 2 and 3. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 651	Posted - 2014.07.17 03:21:00 - [154] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: bogeyman m wrote: When I am killed by REs, it is usually from a 10m-15m distance - rarely from under 10m and occasionally from 30m+ (I'm guessing those are dropped from buildings/towers). Those are grenade distances. When you get killed by REs, how are you measuring these distances? That is a very important question: the likelihood that the scout tossed the RE then immediately backpedaled away/laterally is very high, adding to combat time-dilated perception. The other point you mentioned is also very important: REs now have more than slightly significant activation delays. Shooting the Scout and manoeuvring during the activation is important and, more to point, actually possible. Alt of Halla Murr.
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1777	Posted - 2014.07.17 03:55:00 - [155] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: bogeyman m wrote: When I am killed by REs, it is usually from a 10m-15m distance - rarely from under 10m and occasionally from 30m+ (I'm guessing those are dropped from buildings/towers). Those are grenade distances. When you get killed by REs, how are you measuring these distances? That is a very important question: the likelihood that the scout tossed the RE then immediately backpedaled away/laterally is very high, adding to combat time-dilated perception. The other point you mentioned is also very important: REs now have more than slightly significant activation delays. Shooting the Scout and manoeuvring during the activation is important and, more to point, actually possible. Also forgetting REs that have been placed before the enemy arrive. I normally only go to REs if the enemies back is turned, or I'm able to drop them from a height. And I make sure to be at least 6m away so I don't get caught in the blast radius, as REs will kill me several times over. Might be worthwhile testing the mechanic yourself to see how it works, but you won't see a throw that's anywhere near 10m unless you've got a height advantage. 3-4m tops. Knowledge is power
ratamaq doc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 780	Posted - 2014.07.17 04:06:00 - [156] - Quote Quick question. From what I've read and heard, CCP has never officially released the math behind stacking penalties. It's always been debated as community driven observation. The spreadsheet that is up in this thread, put out by a CCP employee, list stacking penalties. Does that make those numbers official? If CCP has put these numbers out before, please disregard :) YouTube
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 2724	Posted - 2014.07.17 04:22:00 - [157] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: One Eyed King wrote: bogeyman m wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Throw an RE, then throw a grenade. You will see a difference. The comparisons need to stop. "Throw" an Uplink, then throw an RE. You will see a difference. Both are EQUIPMENT. Explain. Throw an Uplink, then throw an Injector. Both are EQUIPMENT. Explain. One is deployable. One is grafted to your hand. Exactly. Not all equipment is the same! So stop comparing them when its convenient to your rationalizations and ignoring it when its inconvenient. REs are their own thing. They are not grenades, and they don't get thrown like grenades. They are not Uplinks, and are not thrown like Uplinks. If you think they are being thrown too far, come up with a new, legitimate argument, because this one is dead and ineffective. This is how a minja feels
ratamaq doc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 780	Posted - 2014.07.17 05:04:00 - [158] - Quote So I read this whole thread, look closely at both the suits and the ewar changes, and absolutely respect the way these conclusions were reached. I only have two big reservations about the premises here. One that it is a scout vs scout balancing which is not considering the other frames on this and is really a buff vs all of them. Two that this is balanced to competitive play, as it should be, but the reality is that while most of the scout skills can be balanced by proto mid frame suits and equipment, at the STD and ADV levels they completely dominate. For instance, I see the need for all scouts to have the ability to defeat the focused scanner in PC, but in a pub match, this narrowly effective piece of equipment that cost an arm and a leg, is rarely ever used and only effective on one race and class of suit, can be defeated by a BPO suit with 2 complex dampeners. In short I don't like that we are balancing passive skills on a very narrow band of proto equipment. These scout ewar passive skills combined with the already massive attribute advantages creates way to big of a gap to the med frames. I really really wish this gal bonus and focused scanner didn't exist. It's to ineffective as a counter, and stands as a scout battle cry for the need to have such an ewar advantage. It reminds me of the terrorist threat, and the scouts remind me of the government making a mountain out of a mole hill with all these extra security measures. 1 class of 1 race with one level of equipment (proto) as a counter to an entire class at every level once full skills are reached for something so fundamentally import to this game to all classes as ewar does not sound balanced to me. For now I'll echo others in saying that at a minimum the skills should be module efficacy. I think a better solution is to balance the frames similar to the way you balanced the scouts themselves. If a mid frame skills into, and equips ewar mods they should be able to infringe in the scouts ewar territory the same way a scout can by wearing plates. And get rid of the one mid frame trump card. It's not fair to the GalLogi who's now only effective in a squad and is expected to be a mobile scanning platform and carry multiple 30ks worth of equipment, and it's sure as hell not fair to the rest of the mid frames. YouTube
rexia myr LORD-BRITISH 0	Posted - 2014.07.17 05:05:00 - [159] - Quote Gallente and Caldari are hostile relations. If a profile bonus is given to CaldariScout, a role will resemble GallenteScout. I think that it will be contradictory to the story of EVE. CaldariScout should have a precision bonus, in order to find GallenteScout. It stops being contradictory by the story of EVE.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 924	Posted - 2014.07.17 05:27:00 - [160] - Quote ratamaq doc wrote: Quick question. From what I've read and heard, CCP has never officially released the math behind stacking penalties. It's always been debated as community driven observation. The spreadsheet that is up in this thread, put out by a CCP employee, list stacking penalties. Does that make those numbers official? If CCP has put these numbers out before, please disregard :) We reverse-engineered it in Eve about eight years ago. Dust/Eve transfers

Mima Sebiestor Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 3	Posted - 2014.07.17 05:48:00 - [161] - Quote Please look at: Cell B18, replace with - 'Exception Gallente/Caldari at'. Row 14, duplicate to highlight (being beaten by) both scouts with dampening bonus and those without. An example would show that minmatar can be beaten by just a single Complex Damp from either Caldari or Gallente.
Floyd20 Azizora Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 64	Posted - 2014.07.17 07:46:00 - [162] - Quote Can i point out the cal scout has become a shield version of the current gal scout with these changes?
Jebus McKing Legio DXIV 503	Posted - 2014.07.17 10:25:00 - [163] - Quote I see not much has changed. You still have only two options: 1) Use scout suit with extensive SP and fitting investments to stay off of people's radars. 2) You permanently have a red arrow above your head. From my perspective, this is unacceptable. Wallhacking is too strong. It is too much of an advantage and it comes at a too cheap of a price. Anything that is not a scout can be scanned with just a scout's passive skills. My proposal? Go back to where a player in a medium suit only needs to sacrifice two slots for dampeners to stay off of people's radars entirely. The fitting choices would then be: do you want additional HP/utility or dampening. Scouts everywhere, game's unplayable. @JebusMcKing
xAckie Ghost. Mob 427	Posted - 2014.07.17 13:21:00 - [164] - Quote So it looks like we should all move to GalScout as Assault changes look uninspiring. Nothing beats being invisible in an FPS. (Also, Cloak should provide no bonus to dampening.)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3010	Posted - 2014.07.17 14:33:00 - [165] - Quote xAckie wrote: So it looks like we should all move to GalScout as Assault changes look uninspiring. Nothing beats being invisible in an FPS. (Also, Cloak should provide no bonus to dampening.) Tourists, slayers and FotM chasers ... Please, do continue to bolster the Scoutly ranks. Please, do defile our precision instruments with your fists of ham and frontline scrubbery. Please, do stack HP and frontline slay away; the more SP you invest, the better you'll be. Please, do max out your Biotics, EWAR, Cloak, Shotguns, RE and become slayer supreme. Please, do not be alarmed by talks of future efficacy bonuses. You'll get a respec. Promise. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3565	Posted - 2014.07.17 14:41:00 - [166] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: xAckie wrote: So it looks like we should all move to GalScout as Assault changes look uninspiring. Nothing beats being invisible in an FPS. (Also, Cloak should provide no bonus to dampening.) Tourists, slayers and FotM chasers ... Please, do continue to bolster the Scoutly ranks. Please, do defile our precision instruments with your fists of ham and frontline scrubbery. Please, do stack HP and frontline slay away; the more SP you invest, the better you'll be. Please, do max out your Biotics, EWAR, Cloak, Shotguns, RE and become slayer supreme. Please, do not be alarmed by talks of future efficacy bonuses. You'll get a respec. Promise. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 Personal Theme Song
xAckie Ghost. Mob 427	Posted - 2014.07.17 16:07:00 - [167] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: xAckie wrote: So it looks like we should all move to GalScout as Assault changes look uninspiring. Nothing beats being invisible in an FPS. (Also, Cloak should provide no bonus to dampening.) Tourists, slayers and FotM chasers ... Please, do continue to bolster the Scoutly ranks. Please, do defile our precision instruments with your fists of ham and frontline scrubbery. Please, do stack HP and frontline slay away; the more SP you invest, the better you'll be. Please, do max out your Biotics, EWAR, Cloak, Shotguns, RE and become slayer supreme. Please, do not be alarmed by talks of future efficacy bonuses. You'll get a respec. Promise. Don't worry I have it all skilled and then some. I have plenty of sp and plenty to spare. In infantry I am unnerfable. And that is a problem when the balance is whack.
Cody Sietz SVER True Blood Dark Taboo 3608	Posted - 2014.07.17 16:47:00 - [168] - Quote Soooo, Gallente still has the lowest bonus? Meanwhile, the Caldari scout is getting the same damps as Gallente and and a 45 meter base scan range with skills... "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
headbust SVER True Blood Dark Taboo 78	Posted - 2014.07.17 17:24:00 - [169] - Quote yea it doesnt seem as if the gallente has a specified role anymore. the caldari have the same damps and the amarr has more precision so wat is our role now its not the infiltrator anymore because as stated in the doc all scouts can surpass scans. we dont have enough precision to make it lethal. so ccp wat is ur idea on the gall scout wat is it good for except being just a general scout. a scout = once you turn your back on me you'll never be able to look back
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 2769	Posted - 2014.07.17 21:21:00 - [170] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: Soooo, Gallente still has the lowest bonus? Meanwhile, the Caldari scout is getting the same damps as Gallente and and a 45 meter base scan range with skills... Gallente also get precision bonus. Not to mention, the dampening bonus offsets the 1LS Cal scouts look to be getting at Std and Adv tiers, and the 2 LS they are getting at proto. They are going to have a hard enough time dampening as it is. It is not like they got away without sacrifice or anything. This is how a minja feels

Cody Sietz SVER True Blood Dark Taboo 3611	Posted - 2014.07.18 04:00:00 - [171] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: Soooo, Gallente still has the lowest bonus? Meanwhile, the Caldari scout is getting the same damps as Gallente and and a 45 meter base scan range with skills... Gallente also get precision bonus. Not to mention, the dampening bonus offsets the 1LS Cal scouts look to be getting at Std and Adv tiers, and the 2 LS they are getting at proto. They are going to have a hard enough time dampening as it is. It is not like they got away without sacrifice or anything. They have a 3/1 layout and are able to damp enough to duck under most scans(I run 2 damps and 2 amps) That 10 percent bonus is really worth much, I'd rather get my 25 percent damps back. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 355	Posted - 2014.07.18 04:25:00 - [172] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: bogeyman m wrote: When I am killed by REs, it is usually from a 10m-15m distance - rarely from under 10m and occasionally from 30m+ (I'm guessing those are dropped from buildings/towers). Those are grenade distances. When you get killed by REs, how are you measuring these distances? That is a very important question: the likelihood that the scout tossed the RE then immediately backpedaled away/laterally is very high, adding to combat time-dilated perception. The other point you mentioned is also very important: REs now have more than slightly significant activation delays. Shooting the Scout and manoeuvring during the activation is important and, more to point, actually possible. Also forgetting REs that have been placed before the enemy arrive. I normally only go to REs if the enemies back is turned, or I'm able to drop them from a height. And I make sure to be at least 6m away so I don't get caught in the blast radius, as REs will kill me several times over. Might be worthwhile testing the mechanic yourself to see how it works, but you won't see a throw that's anywhere near 10m unless you've got a height advantage. 3-4m tops. Good point, but definitely not the case in most of my RE deaths. It's more likely someone snuck in clocked and dropped an RE - the 'kill distance' being the distance they ran before detonation. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 355	Posted - 2014.07.18 04:29:00 - [173] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: bogeyman m wrote: One Eyed King wrote: bogeyman m wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Throw an RE, then throw a grenade. You will see a difference. The comparisons need to stop. "Throw" an Uplink, then throw an RE. You will see a difference. Both are EQUIPMENT. Explain. Throw an Uplink, then throw an Injector. Both are EQUIPMENT. Explain. One is deployable. One is grafted to your hand. Exactly. Not all equipment is the same! So stop comparing them when its convenient to your rationalizations and ignoring it when its inconvenient. REs are their own thing. They are not grenades, and they don't get thrown like grenades. They are not Uplinks, and are not thrown like Uplinks. If you think they are being thrown too far, come up with a new, legitimate argument, because this one is dead and ineffective. Right. REs (and Proxys) are the only "equipment" that can kill someone/something. As such, I think it a reasonable argument that they should not be considered "equipment" at all. You keep defending your crutch though... Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
voidfaction Void of Faction 336	Posted - 2014.07.18 04:33:00 - [174] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: Soooo, Gallente still has the lowest bonus? Meanwhile, the Caldari scout is getting the same damps as Gallente and and a 45 meter base scan range with skills... Gallente also get precision bonus. Not to mention, the dampening bonus offsets the 1LS Cal scouts look to be getting at Std and Adv tiers, and the 2 LS they are getting at proto. They are going to have a hard enough time dampening as it is. It is not like they got away without sacrifice or anything. They have a 3/1 layout and are able to damp enough to duck under most scans(I run 2 damps and 2 amps) That 10 percent bonus is really worth much, I'd rather get my 25 percent damps back. 18db with 1 cDamp and proto cloak for std and adv cal scout suit. only 2 things can scan it. a gal logi with focused scanner or proto amarr with 2 precision 10 percent precision means mediums will have to use 3 dampeners to hide from a gal scout with 2 precision and non cal/gal scout will be foreced to use 2 dampeners so yes it is worth it. Gal will still be the best suit IMO as the std suit can compete vs proto scans where the cal and min scout can not unless running proto themselves. That being said I would look to see Gal scout getting hit with the nerf bat again. Figure they will knock gal down another notch or 2 since they seem so determined to keep cal, min, amarr ewar so weak at std and adv.
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1811	Posted - 2014.07.18 13:14:00 - [175] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Exactly. Not all equipment is the same! So stop comparing them when its convenient to your rationalizations and ignoring it when its inconvenient. REs are their own thing. They are not grenades, and they don't get thrown like grenades. They are not Uplinks, and are not thrown like Uplinks. If you think they are being thrown too far, come up with a new, legitimate argument, because this one is dead and ineffective. Right. REs (and Proxys) are the only "equipment" that can kill someone/something. As such, I think it a reasonable argument that they should not be considered "equipment" at all. You keep defending your crutch though... Really? Is everything a crutch these days? If you see someone going 60-0 with REs then come back and talk about crutches. You can define things however you like. But CCP has defined them as equipment, and has made them deployable at a distance. That's the reality of the situation. If you have an opinion on how or why REs are overpowered, beyond their ability to kill you, then feel free to make a reasoned arguement. Because you're not managing it so far. Knowledge is power
Ghost Steps G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 2	Posted - 2014.07.18 18:43:00 - [176] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, after thoroughly discussing with the scout community, these are our proposed changes. EWAR Calculations I have documented all the necessary and relevant scenarios, I hope. At the top of the document, I have collected the key numbers and tried to put them into perspective. Galogi focused scanner gets the highest range and precision possible, due to it being 1) active, 2) narrow and 3) having a limited duration. This helps establish boundaries that scouts need to live within. That said, by a combination of racial bonuses and dedication of slots All scouts can have similar range, 76m to 91, under the Focused at 100m. This is under review, and I am looking at reducing Range amplifiers to 30% instead of the current 45%. All scouts can get under the focused scan dB by using a cloak, exception Gallente not needing cloak. All scouts can get under the best passive scan dB by using 2 dampeners and cloak or 3 dampeners. Best passive at 2 precision modules is beaten by best dampener at 2 dampening modules. Minmatar get a small PG boost, and all scouts can utilize a very slight PG reduction of KinCats andCodebreakers, possibly Nova Knifes. Nova Knifes will get increased Aim Adhesion, making hit detection work a little better in close quarters, a damage boost 120/160/200 and possibly a little increase in aim, 2.00m to 2.25m OR 2.50m This does not require Codebreakers to be in high, so don't assume that is the case. Please keep your comments civil and on topic. Changing bonuses to module efficacy or other ideas of the sort are not on the table for now. I agree with most numbers, im only concerned about that while gallente and caldari ignore the highest passive scans with 2 dampeners (as seen on the google sheet), caldari wont be able to regen not a sigle point of armor, making caldari a reciclable fit which is not that reciclable when it cost 150k. the fitting im able to pull with charlie is: 2 complex precision (high) 1 complex shield (high) 1 enhanced shield (high) 1 duvolle specialist shotgun (light w) 1 adv assault SMG (sidearm) 1 flux granade (granade slot) 1 complex cloak field (equipment) 1 adv remote explosive (equipment) 2 complex dampeners (low) The numbers i get so far is 290 shield/ 84 armor (154, 755 ISK) which wont handle a single shot from the proto shotgun or last 2 sec against proto HMG and even if i survive i wont be able to regen my armor to fight a second round, been in that situation so many times and dont bring that "u dont play skillful" speech, i have my experience. PTT: this fit is with lvl 5 dropsuit core upgrades, engeeniring, electronics, shield upgrades and lvl 4 armor upgrades.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3058	Posted - 2014.07.18 19:45:00 - [177] - Quote Ghost Steps wrote: The numbers i get so far is 290 shield/ 84 armor (154, 755 ISK) which wont handle a single shot from the proto shotgun or last 2 sec against proto HMG and even if i survive i wont be able to regen my armor to fight a second round, been in that situation so many times and dont bring that "u dont play skillful" speech, i have my experience. Assuming Optimal Range 290 / 84 is within OHK range for any shotgun (not just prototype). As for the HMG, your lifespan would be better measured in tenths of a second; two seconds is way longer (like 5-10 times) than you'll actually live. These aren't necessarily bad things; Scouts are supposed to squishy. Makes things more challenging for us. :-) Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3605	Posted - 2014.07.18 20:25:00 - [178] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Ghost Steps wrote: The numbers i get so far is 290 shield/ 84 armor (154, 755 ISK) which wont handle a single shot from the proto shotgun or last 2 sec against proto HMG and even if i survive i wont be able to regen my armor to fight a second round, been in that situation so many times and dont bring that "u dont play skillful" speech, i have my experience. Assuming Optimal Range ... 290 / 84 is within OHK range for any shotgun (not just prototype). As for the HMG, your lifespan would be better measured in tenths of a second; two seconds is many times larger than your actual lifespan. These aren't necessarily bad things; Scouts are supposed to squishy. Keeps things interesting for us :-) Assuming no plates you need 427 shields to survive a single shot from an STD Shotty. Which would basically be 3 complex and 1 enhanced or 4 complex Appia Vibbia for CPM1 Personal Theme Song
Varoth Drac The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 178	Posted - 2014.07.19 18:08:00 - [179] - Quote Ghost Steps wrote: I agree with most numbers, im only concerned about that while gallente and caldari ignore the highest passive scans with 2 dampeners (as seen on the google sheet), caldari wont be able to regen not a sigle point of armor, making caldari a reciclable fit which is not that reciclable when it cost 150k. the fitting im able to pull with charlie is: 2 complex precision (high) 1 complex shield (high) 1 enhanced shield (high) 1 duvolle specialist shotgun (light w) 1 adv assault SMG (sidearm) 1 flux granade (granade slot) 1 complex cloak field (equipment) 1 adv remote explosive (equipment) 2 complex dampeners (low) The numbers i get so far is 290 shield/ 84 armor (154, 755 ISK) which wont handle a single shot from the proto shotgun or last 2 sec against proto HMG and even if i survive i wont be able to regen my armor to fight a second round, been in that situation so many times and dont bring that "u dont play skillful" speech, i have my experience. PTT: this fit is with lvl 5 dropsuit core upgrades, engeeniring, electronics, shield upgrades and lvl 4 armor upgrades. With so little armor you don't need armor repair. Firstly you are unlikely to get into armor and survive. If you do there won't be much armor to repair. Running around with only 40 armor us not a significant handicap to your fit. If you were worried about hp you could either try to re-jig something to get a second comp extender or loose some precision for more shield. I think the Cal scout looks quite strong, but what is clever about these suggested changes is that it can't be strong without having weaknesses. It can scan a long way, but will loose damps. It can have high precision but will loose hp. It can have good hp but will either loose precision or damps/range.
Cyrus Grevare WarRavens Final Resolution. 234	Posted - 2014.07.19 18:08:00 - [180] - Quote Uploaded proposed skill changes to protofits, for theorycrafting [Jul/19]. Just caution on setting all skills to max since that will set both the current skill (1.8) and the 'Charlie' skill to level 5 causing overlap. Regards. www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool

Ghost Steps G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 2	Posted - 2014.07.19 20:20:00 - [181] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Ghost Steps wrote: The numbers i get so far is 290 shield/ 84 armor (154, 755 ISK) which wont handle a single shot from the proto shotgun or last 2 sec against proto HMG and even if i survive i wont be able to regen my armor to fight a second round, been in that situation so many times and dont bring that "u dont play skillful" speech, i have my experience. PTT: this fit is with lvl 5 dropsuit core upgrades, engeeniring, electronics, shield upgrades and lvl 4 armor upgrades. With so little armor you don't need armor repair. Firstly you are unlikely to get into armor and survive. If you do there won't be much armor to repair. Running around with only 40 armor us not a significant handicap to your fit. If you were worried about hp you could either try to re-jig something to get a second comp extender or loose some precision for more shield. I think the Cal scout looks quite strong, but what is clever about these suggested changes is that it can't be strong without having weaknesses. It can scan a long way, but will loose damps. It can have high precision but will loose hp. It can have good hp but will either loose precision or damps/range. maybe everyone is right, i should wait until hotfix but i see lot more deads in my games. PTT: im gonna miss my passive radar :(
BL4CKST4R Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 2853	Posted - 2014.07.19 21:03:00 - [182] - Quote I think the Gallente dampening bonus should be increase or the Caldari bonus reduced. The whole point of needing the Gallente was to avoid super tanked stealth suits. Giving the Caldari the same bonus as the Gallente creates this problem once more since a Caldari doesn't rely on low slots. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
The True Inferno Myrmidon Syndicate 23	Posted - 2014.07.20 10:35:00 - [183] - Quote What I would suggest to fix this would be to increase the CPU on scouts, though right now your probably thinking "WTF you saying!? BUFF them again? Yo crazy" first, let me finish and second yes I am. I would suggest to increase the CPU on scouts WHILE severely reducing the PG, why may you ask? because every E-war module only takes CPU. This would intern emphsise the usage of scan modules and dampeners on scout suits, mainly because you would not be able to fit much hp modules on. This would have scouts become more stealthy, scanny and, if they fail to ambush you, easyer to kill. ScP = GÖÑ Recent fat scout (sentinel w/shotty and cin-cats)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3093	Posted - 2014.07.20 14:59:00 - [184] - Quote The True Inferno wrote: What I would suggest to fix this would be to increase the CPU on scouts, though right now your probably thinking "WTF you saying!? BUFF them again? Yo crazy" first, let me finish and second yes I am. I would suggest to increase the CPU on scouts WHILE severely reducing the PG, why may you ask? because every E-war module only takes CPU. This would intern emphsise the usage of scan modules and dampeners on scout suits, mainly because you would not be able to fit much hp modules on. This would have scouts become more stealthy, scanny and, if they fail to ambush you, easyer to kill. Scoutly things which consume PG: * Code Breakers * Remote Explosives * Uplinks * Cloak * Cardiac Regulators * Kinetic Catalyzers * Ferroscale Plates * Reactive Plates * Nova Knives We also use these not-necessarily-Scoutly things: * Primary Weapons * Secondary Weapons * Grenades * Shield Extenders Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
xAckie Ghost. Mob 429	Posted - 2014.07.20 15:20:00 - [185] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: The True Inferno wrote: What I would suggest to fix this would be to increase the CPU on scouts, though right now your probably thinking "WTF you saying!? BUFF them again? Yo crazy" first, let me finish and second yes I am. I would suggest to increase the CPU on scouts WHILE severely reducing the PG, why may you ask? because every E-war module only takes CPU. This would intern emphsise the usage of scan modules and dampeners on scout suits, mainly because you would not be able to fit much hp modules on. This would have scouts become more stealthy, scanny and, if they fail to ambush you, easyer to kill. Scoutly things which consume PG: * Code Breakers * Remote Explosives * Uplinks * Cloak * Cardiac Regulators * Kinetic Catalyzers * Ferroscale Plates * Reactive Plates * Nova Knives We also use these not-necessarily-Scoutly things: * Primary Weapons * Secondary Weapons * Grenades * Shield Extenders EWAR is 'scoutly things'. Thats why other classes dont use those modules All the modules you list, bar cloak, are used by all other classes
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 668	Posted - 2014.07.20 16:19:00 - [186] - Quote xAckie wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Scoutly things which consume PG: * Code Breakers * Remote Explosives * Uplinks * Cloak * Cardiac Regulators * Kinetic Catalyzers * Ferroscale Plates * Reactive Plates * Nova Knives We also use these not-necessarily-Scoutly things: * Primary Weapons * Secondary Weapons * Grenades * Shield Extenders EWAR is 'scoutly things'. Thats why other classes dont use those modules All the modules you list, bar cloak, are used by all other classes While there certainly are things on the list that other roles use, there are many that show up most commonly on Scouts: Cloaks are obvious; KinCats are very commonly associated with Scouts; REs and Uplinks are staple Scout equipment and while other classes definitely use them as least as much, they are high PG tools which is the point being discussed. Alt of Halla Murr.
xAckie Ghost. Mob 429	Posted - 2014.07.20 16:28:00 - [187] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: xAckie wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Scoutly things which consume PG: * Code Breakers * Remote Explosives * Uplinks * Cloak * Cardiac Regulators * Kinetic Catalyzers * Ferroscale Plates * Reactive Plates * Nova Knives We also use these not-necessarily-Scoutly things: * Primary Weapons * Secondary Weapons * Grenades * Shield Extenders EWAR is 'scoutly things'. Thats why other classes dont use those modules All the modules you list, bar cloak, are used by all other classes While there certainly are things on the list that other roles use, there are many that show up most commonly on Scouts: Cloaks are obvious; KinCats are very commonly associated with Scouts; REs and Uplinks are staple Scout equipment and while other classes definitely use them as least as much, they are high PG tools which is the point being discussed. They are as much a staple of the others. That's the point I was making. I dont think they are special to 'scout'.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 668	Posted - 2014.07.20 16:50:00 - [188] - Quote xAckie wrote: They are as much a staple of the others. That's the point I was making. I dont think they are special to 'scout'. Special to Scouts, not really. But commonly used, such that a PG nerf would actually impact upon using them, despite the fact that Scouts deploying things like uplinks are a part of what Scouts are for. Alt of Halla Murr.
xAckie Ghost. Mob 429	Posted - 2014.07.20 16:56:00 - [189] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: xAckie wrote: They are as much a staple of the others. That's the point I was making. I dont think they are special to 'scout'. Special to Scouts, not really. But commonly used, such that a PG nerf would actually impact upon using them, despite the fact that Scouts deploying things like uplinks are a part of what Scouts are for. I agree a PG nerf would have an impact and its an interesting route to think about. Links for example can easily be associated with Logis - in particular the Amarr logi. I think the problem of Scouts is that they are far too flexible. And thinking this list is a 'scoutly list' fails to recognise that other suits roles heavily rely on these modules/ equipment too. What Scouts role is, is EWAR (its passive bonuses are based around this). The role should be strengthened around this. Otherwise we have the problem of Scout Assaults etc.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3095	Posted - 2014.07.20 22:08:00 - [190] - Quote @ Inferno / Ackie The one thing all "assault lite" scouts have in common is armor plates. Why jump through all those hoops instead of speaking directly to the common denominator? Scouts have suggested ewar module efficacy bonuses. This would discourage use of plates among Scouts. Rattati has suggested armor plate penalties for Scouts. This would discourage use of plates among Scouts. Everyone has suggested making Assault Frames the go-to slayer fit. This too will result in less plate usage among Scouts. All that to say, we are already addressing the "assault lite" problem with solutions which speak to the root of the problem. Your proposal negatively affects aspects not-at-issue. Why break things which needn't be broken? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley

Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3613	Posted - 2014.07.20 22:56:00 - [191] - Quote lol, if you think the scout needs a PG reductions you're either stupid or an *****. KinCats, Codebreaker, Cloak, Uplink. 1 of each of those at PRO level totals 65 PG Without Dropsuit Engineering skill your 3 PG over the Scout mk.0 You've got 1PG left to fit on a Scout ck.0 5 PG left on a Scout ak.0 and 10 PG left on a Scout gk.0 If you think the PG needs to be reduced on scouts you're an idiot or an *****. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 Personal Theme Song
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 935	Posted - 2014.07.21 00:05:00 - [192] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: lol, if you think the scout needs a PG reductions you're either stupid or an *******. KinCats, Codebreaker, Cloak, Uplink. 1 of each of those at PRO level totals 65 PG One would assume that the forthcoming drop in grid requirements for biotics would happen at the same time as any scout grid reduction. Dust/Eve transfers
voidfaction Void of Faction 340	Posted - 2014.07.21 00:06:00 - [193] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: lol, if you think the scout needs a PG reductions you're either stupid or an *****. KinCats, Codebreaker, Cloak, Uplink. 1 of each of those at PRO level totals 65 PG Without Dropsuit Engineering skill your 3 PG over the Scout mk.0 You've got 1PG left to fit on a Scout ck.0 5 PG left on a Scout ak.0 and 10 PG left on a Scout gk.0 If you think the PG needs to be reduced on scouts you're an idiot or an *****. I see the problem being a lot of scout want the best of everything in one suit vs making decisions on what to focus on. With some mods getting pg reduction in charlie and min getting more pg (which i personaly dont thing is needed with pg reduction n mods) they will be free to run whatever they want. Yes the other scouts like gal scout should have less pg. I would ask for more cpu on gal but being i can run 14db profile with cShield, cCloak, 2x cDampeners, six kin CR, smg, flux on a STD dragonfly with 3 PG left over using a CPU BOOSTER. A mod nobody wants to use because they think they should have it all. And Min sitting pretty with all that CPU lol. they have these mods in the game for more CPU and PG its amazing what you can do with them. I have so many fittings that come up short by 1 cpu its not funny am i getting a cpu boost in charlie to fix it? am i getting a cpu optimization to gal weapons to fix it? how about a cpu reduction to dampeners or precision? no i have to sacrifice something to make the fitting work. I know its easier to ask for more to fit everything than to sacrifice your fitting. and the dev made a post on how to make PG mods used more, lol. simple stop giving in to the babies and tell them to use a pg mod if they want or need more pg to fit all proto.
Mima Sebiestor Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 3	Posted - 2014.07.21 02:40:00 - [194] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: If you think the PG needs to be reduced on scouts you're an idiot or an *******. I think the PG needs to be reduced on scouts. I don't believe they should be able to carry proto uplinks; the heaviest equipment next to proto hives. Leave the heavy equipment for logistics. Allow the scout to choose scan mods by limitation.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 935	Posted - 2014.07.21 02:44:00 - [195] - Quote Mima Sebiestor wrote: I think the PG needs to be reduced on scouts. I don't believe they should be able to carry proto uplinks; the heaviest equipment next to proto hives. Leave the heavy equipment for logistics. Allow the scout to choose scan mods by limitation. I'm okay with them carrying prototype uplinks if they are willing to sacrifice something for them (like a cloak, or whatever). Can you post a fit that has such an uplink and is 'OP', vs what it would be without the uplink? Dust/Eve transfers
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3098	Posted - 2014.07.21 03:27:00 - [196] - Quote Mima Sebiestor wrote: I think the PG needs to be reduced on scouts. I think Shotguns need to OHK Sentinels. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3620	Posted - 2014.07.21 03:34:00 - [197] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Mima Sebiestor wrote: I think the PG needs to be reduced on scouts. I think the Shotgun needs to OHK Sentinels. The breach only having 2 shots, with a longer fire interval and slower reload. That would actually make me use it if it could kill a sentinel in 2 shots Appia Vibbia for CPM1 Personal Theme Song
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3101	Posted - 2014.07.21 03:55:00 - [198] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Mima Sebiestor wrote: I think the PG needs to be reduced on scouts. I think the Shotgun needs to OHK Sentinels. The breach only having 2 shots, with a longer fire interval and slower reload. That would actually make me use it if it could kill a sentinel in 2 shots Nah. It only gets two shots, and most Heavies tow at least one Logi. One shot for the Heavy. One shot for the nearest Logi. Rinse / Repeat. Its more than reasonable, I think. Overutilized Sentinels fixed. Underutilized Breach Shotgun fixed. Two birds with one stone. Somebody call Rattati. I think we're on to something here. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
xAckie Ghost. Mob 431	Posted - 2014.07.21 06:13:00 - [199] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Inferno / Ackie The one thing all "assault lite" scouts have in common is armor plates. Why jump through all those hoops instead of speaking directly to the common denominator? Scouts have suggested ewar module efficacy bonuses. This would discourage use of plates among Scouts. This type of balancing has continually failed in dust. People always mix and match. Efficacy only works if you want to play that role. Adipem Nothi wrote: Rattati has suggested armor plate penalties for Scouts. This would discourage use of plates among Scouts. If its speed? they will still be faster than the other frames (including strafe) Adipem Nothi wrote: Everyone has suggested making Assault Frames the go-to slayer fit. This too will result in less plate usage among Scouts. None of the Assault proposals have offered anything for a shift to assault. Scouts will be able to stack extenders /plates , have speed, have 2 equipment slots, reduced profile, be invisible, able to passively squad scan scouts, mediums and heavies at range. There is no downside. Adipem Nothi wrote: All that to say, we are already addressing the "assault lite" problem with solutions which speak to the root of the problem. Your proposal negatively affects aspects not-at-issue. Why break things which needn't be broken? Because I think the class is broken. Because we are already talking about hofix delta fixing hotfix charlie on the forums. The game is 2 years in and the simple balance fixes are not being done by CCP so we keep on ending up with this mess. In Legion CCP seems to be saying they are going to circumvent this whole problem by going down the 'classes route'. Which will stop the 'flexibility' problem we see now.
xAckie Ghost. Mob 431	Posted - 2014.07.21 06:19:00 - [200] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: lol, if you think the scout needs a PG reductions you're either stupid or an *****. KinCats, Codebreaker, Cloak, Uplink. 1 of each of those at PRO level totals 65 PG Without Dropsuit Engineering skill your 3 PG over the Scout mk.0 You've got 1PG left to fit on a Scout ck.0 5 PG left on a Scout ak.0 and 10 PG left on a Scout gk.0 If you think the PG needs to be reduced on scouts you're an idiot or an *****. Wow, rage much? None of those modules bar cloak are scout modules. Keep defending a flexible do it all suit.

Floyd20 Azizora Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 66	Posted - 2014.07.21 08:49:00 - [201] - Quote xAckie wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: lol, if you think the scout needs a PG reductions you're either stupid or an *****. KinCats, Codebreaker, Cloak, Uplink. 1 of each of those at PRO level totals 65 PG Without Dropsuit Engineering skill your 3 PG over the Scout mk.0 You've got 1PG left to fit on a Scout ck.0 5 PG left on a Scout ak.0 and 10 PG left on a Scout gk.0 If you think the PG needs to be reduced on scouts you're an idiot or an *****. Wow, rage much? None of those modules bar cloak are scout modules. Keep defending a flexible do it all suit. by that logic no module can be classed any a module for any suit. scouts have the best hacking speed(making Codebreakers best on scouts), KinCat give the most benefit to scouts, and uplinks can be placed in the best spots faster with a scout. yes, proto uplinks may not be needed here, he is showing the pg issues, as that set up uses 4 of 11 slots.
xAckie Ghost. Mob 432	Posted - 2014.07.21 09:13:00 - [202] - Quote Floyd20 Azizora wrote: xAckie wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: lol, if you think the scout needs a PG reductions you're either stupid or an *****. KinCats, Codebreaker, Cloak, Uplink. 1 of each of those at PRO level totals 65 PG Without Dropsuit Engineering skill your 3 PG over the Scout mk.0 You've got 1PG left to fit on a Scout ck.0 5 PG left on a Scout ak.0 and 10 PG left on a Scout gk.0 If you think the PG needs to be reduced on scouts you're an idiot or an *****. Wow, rage much? None of those modules bar cloak are scout modules. Keep defending a flexible do it all suit. by that logic no module can be classed any a module for any suit. scouts have the best hacking speed(making Codebreakers best on scouts), KinCat give the most benefit to scouts, and uplinks can be placed in the best spots faster with a scout. yes, proto uplinks may not be needed here, he is showing the pg issues, as that set up uses 4 of 11 slots. Not sure who you are responding to. EWAR modules are scout modules. No other class would bother running them. Codebreakers can be staked on logis and kincats are used by all classes. Think of minmitar heavy. All I see is allowing these modules to be fit so easily improves the Scout class to the point where we are in the situation now.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3104	Posted - 2014.07.21 12:37:00 - [203] - Quote "Scouts should only be allowed to use is ewar modules; otherwise Scouts are broken." ^ If this is your opinion, fine. It isn't an especially good one (in my opinion) but you're entitled to think whatever you want. Now to push this opinion of yours onto others is another matter. To pitch an opinion -- especially a bad opinion -- you're going to need a measure of sound reasoning. Let's have a look at the reasoning you've provided thus far ... Reason 1) "Since ewar modules work best on Scouts, Scouts shouldn't be able to equip other modules." Reason 2) "If another frame benefits from a module, Scouts should shouldn't be able to equip that module." Reason 3) Allowing Scouts to equip non-ewar modules creates balance problems ... because flexibility. Read these out loud. Do you hear how they sound? These aren't reasons. These aren't reasonable. These do not constitute sound reasoning. Do fell free free to try again. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
xAckie Ghost. Mob 433	Posted - 2014.07.21 13:27:00 - [204] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Ackie "Scouts should only be allowed to use is ewar modules; otherwise Dust is broken." ^ If this is your opinion, fine. It isn't an especially solid or well-formed opinion (in my opinion) but you're entitled to think whatever you want. Now, to push this opinion of yours onto others is an altogether separate matter. To pitch an opinion -- especially a bad one -- you're going to need a measure of sound reasoning. Let's have a look at the reasoning you've provided thus far ... Reason 1) "Since ewar modules work best on Scouts, Scouts shouldn't be able to equip other modules." Reason 2) "If another frame benefits from a module, Scouts should shouldn't be able to equip that module." Reason 3) "Allowing Scouts to equip non-ewar modules creates balance problems ... because flexibility." Read these out loud. Do you hear how they sound? These aren't reasons. These aren't reasonable. These do not constitute sound reasoning. Do feel free to try again. I think you are being a bit defensive. This is a forum. People post things. The fact is the scout suit current flexibility means stacking other modules on the suit is to easy. There are no penalties only upsides. Reduction in PG is just one way to penalise these type of suit builds. Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Ackie "Scouts should only be allowed to use is ewar modules; otherwise Dust is broken." I didn't actually say that (i dont think I did). What I did point out is that no other class uses EWAR modules. Because it isn't worth it. So there is already a form of 'fitting restriction'. my reasons as I have pointed out repeatedly is that scouts have massive flexibility and upsides from speed, invisibility, dampening and range (both passive and module), squad scans, 2 equipment slots and so - without having to give anything up If it isn't a PG reduction (which will hampen stacking) I dont see anyone in this thread coming up with any ideas to change the scout class from being able to do it all. I do not think the current buff to assaults will overcome the inherent benefits that scouts have. Thats my opinion. you dont have to like it. But your not admitting there is a problem. Pretty sure CCP is thinking of going down the class route for Legion - I presume because it is easier to balance (even if imperfectly)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3106	Posted - 2014.07.21 14:41:00 - [205] - Quote @ Ackie The problem at the moment is that Scouts can stack plates and out-slay Assaults, all the while remaining effective at being Scouts. I'll be the first to admit that this is a balance problem; we Scouts have been discussing the problem (and ways to fix it) for months. Scouts take no pride in seeing Nyain San in 700HP "scout suits" ... we want to see this nonsense come to an end more than anyone. HP tank is the root of problem. Without HP tank, there would be no problem. An optimal solution would correct the problem without breaking anything else. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Master Smurf Nos Nothi 554	Posted - 2014.07.22 01:05:00 - [206] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: The True Inferno wrote: What I would suggest to fix this would be to increase the CPU on scouts, though right now your probably thinking "WTF you saying!? BUFF them again? Yo crazy" first, let me finish and second yes I am. I would suggest to increase the CPU on scouts WHILE severely reducing the PG, why may you ask? because every E-war module only takes CPU. This would intern emphsise the usage of scan modules and dampeners on scout suits, mainly because you would not be able to fit much hp modules on. This would have scouts become more stealthy, scanny and, if they fail to ambush you, easyer to kill. Scoutly things which consume PG: * Code Breakers * Remote Explosives * Uplinks * Cloak * Cardiac Regulators * Kinetic Catalyzers * Ferroscale Plates * Reactive Plates * Nova Knives We also use these not-necessarily-Scoutly things: * Primary Weapons * Secondary Weapons * Grenades * Shield Extenders Ferroscale and Reactive plates are now very PG friendly Still think Extenders consume too much though. Hoping the Minmatar PG boost is enough to allow them to use more varied weapon combinations and would definitely like to see the Codebreaker move happen to give high slots more flavour. "Shine bright like a diamond"
Bormir1r Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 555	Posted - 2014.07.22 15:17:00 - [207] - Quote Master Smurf wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: The True Inferno wrote: What I would suggest to fix this would be to increase the CPU on scouts, though right now your probably thinking "WTF you saying!? BUFF them again? Yo crazy" first, let me finish and second yes I am. I would suggest to increase the CPU on scouts WHILE severely reducing the PG, why may you ask? because every E-war module only takes CPU. This would intern emphsise the usage of scan modules and dampeners on scout suits, mainly because you would not be able to fit much hp modules on. This would have scouts become more stealthy, scanny and, if they fail to ambush you, easyer to kill. Scoutly things which consume PG: * Code Breakers * Remote Explosives * Uplinks * Cloak * Cardiac Regulators * Kinetic Catalyzers * Ferroscale Plates * Reactive Plates * Nova Knives We also use these not-necessarily-Scoutly things: * Primary Weapons * Secondary Weapons * Grenades * Shield Extenders Ferroscale and Reactive plates are now very PG friendly Still think Extenders consume too much though. Hoping the Minmatar PG boost is enough to allow them to use more varied weapon combinations and would definitely like to see the Codebreaker move happen to give high slots more flavour. Should be enough for me =P "One does not simply" run like a Raptor. Only Mk.0 Scouts will do that. NK are my Teeth, Kin Cats are my Legs.
Bormir1r Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 555	Posted - 2014.07.22 15:24:00 - [208] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Mima Sebiestor wrote: I think the PG needs to be reduced on scouts. I think the Shotgun needs to OHK Sentinels. The breach only having 2 shots, with a longer fire interval and slower reload. That would actually make me use it if it could kill a sentinel in 2 shots The damage should be 80 per pellet at basic (if there was one at std) 84 at adv, and 88 at proto. This would definitely make the breach more viable. "One does not simply" run like a Raptor. Only Mk.0 Scouts will do that. NK are my Teeth, Kin Cats are my Legs.
Jotun Izalaru Goonfeet 202	Posted - 2014.07.23 08:08:00 - [209] - Quote Really, as long as cloak abuse is still possible EWar balancing is utterly pointless, so I'm not sure why any effort was made. Cloaks shouldn't damp and still be a ticket to a full first shot. Ideally they're neither, but both is ridiculous.
OP FOTM Commando Perkone Caldari State 163	Posted - 2014.07.23 11:52:00 - [210] - Quote Oh so I just realized you're eliminating the Caldari's precision entirely? That should **** some people off I'm not sure it's wise to copy paste it to the Amarr though. Doesn't matter if it takes 4 low slots to get an 86 meter scan radius. People are still going to do it. Especially in PC. CCP, I thought I was going to start liking you again. I really did. Then you announced this event.

Greiv Rabbah KiLo. 12	Posted - 2014.07.23 16:21:00 - [211] - Quote Jotun Izalaru wrote: Really, as long as cloak abuse is still possible EWar balancing is utterly pointless, so I'm not sure why any effort was made. Cloaks shouldn't damp and still be a ticket to a full first shot. Ideally they're neither, but both is ridiculous. I don't mean to say the EWar changes would be good with working cloaks, either, just that it was pointless to try. I hope that the EWar escalation game encourages more people back into Assault suits but if it doesn't than you've simply homogenized the acceptable Scout builds. it makes sense for cloaks to have some dampening with progression, especially when you consider that its caldari tech and caldari dont damp quite as well as gallente. but it shouldnt effortlessly make you invisible, and it doesnt. most ppl have determined that cloaks are trash... because theyre neither an effortless damp nor a free first shot most times simply bc if youre cloaked youre not invisible. hell, you glow blue! sometimes cloaks even get you spotted even if your profile is low enough... all in all, there are a lot of decisions to weigh when wearing a cloak. even at lvl5 scout, when fitting a cloak, there is no "your suit will be gimped if you arent a scout", no instead you're deciding in what ways to gimp your suit and so that people can rage about your cloak while shooting your shimmer all day long. mostly i dont use cloaks because i have to choose whether i want to be invisible to the idiots with their nose down a scope or real players thatll knock the cloak off of me 9/10 of the time.l if you think cloaks are being "abused" or if thats even doable, game balancing isnt your problem. you need to adjust your situational awareness is all, because cloaks are just as broken as they ought to be. even when cloak usage dies down i wouldnt give it another balancing pass. there is nothing at all wrong with cloaks. EWAR is broken as all get out though and i'm curious why minjas get bonuses to jobs that theyll get cut down trying to perform on account of CCP stole our damp bonus and gave it to calscouts
Greiv Rabbah KiLo. 12	Posted - 2014.07.23 16:32:00 - [212] - Quote Floyd20 Azizora wrote: xAckie wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: lol, if you think the scout needs a PG reductions you're either stupid or an *****. KinCats, Codebreaker, Cloak, Uplink. 1 of each of those at PRO level totals 65 PG Without Dropsuit Engineering skill your 3 PG over the Scout mk.0 You've got 1PG left to fit on a Scout ck.0 5 PG left on a Scout ak.0 and 10 PG left on a Scout gk.0 If you think the PG needs to be reduced on scouts you're an idiot or an *****. Wow, rage much? None of those modules bar cloak are scout modules. Keep defending a flexible do it all suit. by that logic no module can be classed any a module for any suit. scouts have the best hacking speed(making Codebreakers best on scouts), KinCat give the most benefit to scouts, and uplinks can be placed in the best spots faster with a scout. yes, proto uplinks may not be needed here, he is showing the pg issues, as that set up uses 4 of 11 slots. sorry guy... "logis have the best hacking speed(making Codebreakers best on gallogis)" there, i fixed your sentence for you. btw gallente make codebreakers so it was obvious that gallogi should be the fastest hacker even before running the numbers. yall got confused when the hacking bonus fell from minlogi to minja, but hacking has never been a job best suited to a scout. but also, taking it in the direction of scouts only get to use ewar? in the very game that advertised "snipe as a heavy instead of a squishy" early on? no... the customization and playing around with breaking out of defined class roles are a lot of what the fun in this game is based around!
Jotun Izalaru Goonfeet 205	Posted - 2014.07.24 23:21:00 - [213] - Quote Greiv Rabbah wrote: but it shouldnt effortlessly make you invisible, and it doesnt. most ppl have determined that cloaks are trash... because theyre neither an effortless damp nor a free first shot most times simply bc if youre cloaked youre not invisible. hell, you glow blue! sometimes cloaks even get you spotted even if your profile is low enough... all in all, there are a lot of decisions to weigh when wearing a cloak. even at lvl5 scout, when fitting a cloak, there is no "your suit will be gimped if you arent a scout", no instead you're deciding in what ways to gimp your suit and so that people can rage about your cloak while shooting your shimmer all day long. mostly i dont use cloaks because i have to choose whether i want to be invisible to the idiots with their nose down a scope or real players thatll knock the cloak off of me 9/10 of the time.l if you think cloaks are being "abused" or if thats even doable, game balancing isnt your problem. you need to adjust your situational awareness is all, because cloaks are just as broken as they ought to be. even when cloak usage dies down i wouldnt give it another balancing pass. there is nothing at all wrong with cloaks. EWAR is broken as all get out though and i'm curious why minjas get bonuses to jobs that theyll get cut down trying to perform on account of CCP stole our damp bonus and gave it to calscouts You absolutely get a full free first shot if: 1)the mood of the level is the really bright one 2)Your victim is playing the game on standard definiton (and there are multiple reasons this might be, including the running PS3 input delay on some high-def screens, so "don't play on standard def lol" isn't an acceptable solution) 3)the rendering of the blue glow doesn't take place immediately due to lag or any other CCP server problems. When the cloak was introduced it had a single worthwhile purpose, remember that before this EWar was perfectly balanced: 1) letting scouts cross the many, many open fields in the game without getting immediately shredded by any gun regardless of range. EWar balance and overpowered Scouts were completely ruined because the cloak was introduced and the Ewar changes as listed do nothing to return to that perfect balance and the cloak will remain a running problem even if not to you personally.
Faquira Bleuetta Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 407	Posted - 2014.07.25 02:47:00 - [214] - Quote Bormir1r wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Mima Sebiestor wrote: I think the PG needs to be reduced on scouts. I think the Shotgun needs to OHK Sentinels. The breach only having 2 shots, with a longer fire interval and slower reload. That would actually make me use it if it could kill a sentinel in 2 shots The damage should be 80 per pellet at basic (if there was one at std) 84 at adv, and 88 at proto. This would definitely make the breach more viable. nope
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3704	Posted - 2014.07.25 03:01:00 - [215] - Quote Faquira Bleuetta wrote: Bormir1r wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Mima Sebiestor wrote: I think the PG needs to be reduced on scouts. I think the Shotgun needs to OHK Sentinels. The breach only having 2 shots, with a longer fire interval and slower reload. That would actually make me use it if it could kill a sentinel in 2 shots The damage should be 80 per pellet at basic (if there was one at std) 84 at adv, and 88 at proto. This would definitely make the breach more viable. nope Clearly an expert opinion from someone that has put hours upon hours of practice with the breach shotgun. Personal Theme Song
Faquira Bleuetta Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 407	Posted - 2014.07.25 03:21:00 - [216] - Quote amarr scout is still the most pos scout suit look look look the prof gal win they have 5 more pg 3 rep lol free basic yayyyyyyyyyy wait wutttttttttttttttt gal with 560 ehp http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/1145/5778 and still be faster than a 463 ehp amarr http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/1145/5777
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries 3270	Posted - 2014.07.25 04:09:00 - [217] - Quote SAIRAX SIS wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, after thoroughly discussing with the scout community, these are our proposed changes. EWAR Calculations Gal Scout unnecessary Precision bonus. Gal Scout needs Profile Dumpting -5%/lv only. they are Spy. arenot Recon. but no gal scout "spies"...they just sneak up on you to OHK you in the back. > Check RND out here
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 945	Posted - 2014.07.25 04:19:00 - [218] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: but no gal scout "spies"...they just sneak up on you to OHK you in the back. Gentlemen... Dust/Eve transfers
Faquira Bleuetta Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 408	Posted - 2014.07.25 09:03:00 - [219] - Quote amarr scout still sux

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4848	Posted - 2014.07.25 22:48:00 - [220] - Quote I thank you for the feedback, everyone who participated in a civil and constructive manner. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"




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