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Sticky:Hotfix Charlie - Scout and EWAR changes

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Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1685	Posted - 2014.07.15 01:57:00 - [31] - Quote Just to provide some context for the changes. The listed changes have been discussed with sections of the scout community at length, and are endorsed as the best option available under the current limitations (server side changes only, etc). As it stands, everyone in competitive play is either using the Cal scout as a hyper scanner in a 6 man squad, or the Gal at max dampening to counter it. The Amarr scout continues to lack a defined role and the Minmatar is being sidelined to the point that it is no longer appearing in competitive play. CCP has stats to back it up. The Cal scouts solo is not the problem. The Cal scout in a group is. They've become the new 360 scanner, but worse. Worse because, unlike active scanners, there's no warning, no cool down, and no way to avoid it outside of very specific fits (in effect, just the Gal scout). Removal of passive scanning has been requested to fix this issue (pushing Scouts to use active scanners to 'paint' targets if they want to share them with team mates), but is not technically feasible at this time. Check footnotes for hot-fix Charlie. This change is a blance fix while the technical details of removing shared passive scans is worked out, along with implementing module efficacy bonuses to replace the current passive bonuses (also in the footnotes for Charlie), to move scouts away from brick tanking. With the expected changes, all scouts will be able to reasonably drop off tac net (2 damps + cloak, or 3 damps), and will all have viable range and precision (though Amarr and Cal will excel), and there will be a viable reason for all scouts to fit something other than armor or shield modules. In effect it gives the Amarr scout a worthwhile bonus (and hopefully a worthwhile role) and makes the Minmatar scout viable in competitive play again, while normalising EWAR across all scouts. It also re-intoduces the Gal logi as the go to battlefield scanner, with all the pro's and con's of active scanning (better range, very high precision, but time limited, alerts the target, and exposes the user). Feel free to ask if you want more info. o7 Knowledge is power
Grimmiers 631	Posted - 2014.07.15 02:07:00 - [32] - Quote Impressive. The gallogi with a focus scanner would have to make a lot of guess work so it should be balanced. You could raise the pg of the focused to 24 just so you really have to sacrifice a lot to run 4 of them. After the gal logi bonus the pg would be brought down to 18.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1348	Posted - 2014.07.15 02:21:00 - [33] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, after thoroughly discussing with the scout community, these are our proposed changes. EWAR Calculations I have documented all the necessary and relevant scenarios, I hope. At the top of the document, I have collected the key numbers and tried to put them into perspective. Galogi focused scanner gets the highest range and precision possible, due to it being 1) active, 2) narrow and 3) having a limited duration. This helps establish boundaries that scouts need to live within. That said, by a combination of racial bonuses and dedication of slots All scouts can have similar range, 76m to 91, under the Focused at 100m. This is under review, and I am looking at reducing Range amplifiers to 30% instead of the current 45%. All scouts can get under the focused scan dB by using a cloak, exception Gallente not needing cloak. All scouts can get under the best passive scan dB by using 2 dampeners and cloak or 3 dampeners. Best passive at 2 precision modules is beaten by best dampener at 2 dampening modules. Minmatar get a small PG boost, and all scouts can utilize a very slight PG reduction of KinCats andCodebreakers, possibly Nova Knifes. Nova Knifes will get increased Aim Adhesion, making hit detection work a little better in close quarters, a damage boost 120/160/200 and possibly a little increase in aim, 2.00m to 2.25m OR 2.50m This does not require Codebreakers to be in high, so don't assume that is the case. Please keep your comments civil and on topic. Changing bonuses to module efficacy or other ideas of the sort are not on the table for now. Just a comment on the google docs numbers. Nothing is ever rounded in dust, nor is it truncated. It is only ever rounded for display purposes, if you had 11.111111123 precision on one fit and 11.111111122 profile on another fit that first fit would never be able to passive scan the second fit, as nothing is ever rounded. I'm not sure who told you they did, but they're wrong. It's possible to deal fractions of a point of damage. The people coding probably set the display value following modification to the actual value thats kept and used "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. Kills-Archduke Ferd1nand
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1350	Posted - 2014.07.15 02:30:00 - [34] - Quote Also, to the people coming in here and thinking "zOMGWTFLOLNOOOSCOUNTBUFF", this really is just a shift in the equilibrium between scout classes, and will hopefully give the battlefield a little more diversity. The main effect of these changes will be from a 40% gal scout 55% cal scout 3% min scout 2% am scout, we will hopefully see something more along the lines of 30% gal scout, 30% cal scout, 15% min scout, and 25% am scout. If you do not run in organized squads, these changes will not affect you unless you are a scout, in which case you should see the logic in the proposal. This change should also push the equilibrium of the battlefield a little bit more towards an ideal med frame population, particularly the gal logi, as the focused active scanner will once again reign supreme as the ultimate anti-scout weapon. More questions/comments/concerns, just put it out there, but please try to remain civil, and have the decency to only post in an intelligent and well thought out manner Thanks guys, Gav "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. Kills-Archduke Ferd1nand
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1690	Posted - 2014.07.15 02:35:00 - [35] - Quote Grimmiers wrote: Impressive. The gallogi with a focus scanner would have to make a lot of guess work so it should be balanced. You could raise the pg of the focused to 24 just so you really have to sacrifice a lot to run 4 of them. After the gal logi bonus the pg would be brought down to 18. Will have to see how the rise of the Gal logi pans out. It's possible that it will end up being exploited again (4 x proto focused scanners while standing next to a supply depo to swap out for another suit with 4 scanners), but it should only see limited play in Pubs. Should. Pro players love them crutches... Knowledge is power
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 5970	Posted - 2014.07.15 03:07:00 - [36] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Grimmiers wrote: Impressive. The gallogi with a focus scanner would have to make a lot of guess work so it should be balanced. You could raise the pg of the focused to 24 just so you really have to sacrifice a lot to run 4 of them. After the gal logi bonus the pg would be brought down to 18. Will have to see how the rise of the Gal logi pans out. It's possible that it will end up being exploited again (4 x proto focused scanners while standing next to a supply depo to swap out for another suit with 4 scanners), but it should only see limited play in Pubs. Should. Pro players love them crutches... We can still damp hard to avoid Focused scans if we have too. And then we give that Gal Logi a blap to the face and then cap the depot. RE the spot for future use How I Imagine I look when running Minmatar Scout PSN: EVL_Elgost105
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 913	Posted - 2014.07.15 03:07:00 - [37] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Will have to see how the rise of the Gal logi pans out. It's possible that it will end up being exploited again (4 x proto focused scanners while standing next to a supply depo to swap out for another suit with 4 scanners), but it should only see limited play in Pubs. Should. Pro players love them crutches... I don't think it will be particularly effective tbh. Dust/Eve transfers
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1698	Posted - 2014.07.15 03:16:00 - [38] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Brokerib wrote: Grimmiers wrote: Impressive. The gallogi with a focus scanner would have to make a lot of guess work so it should be balanced. You could raise the pg of the focused to 24 just so you really have to sacrifice a lot to run 4 of them. After the gal logi bonus the pg would be brought down to 18. Will have to see how the rise of the Gal logi pans out. It's possible that it will end up being exploited again (4 x proto focused scanners while standing next to a supply depo to swap out for another suit with 4 scanners), but it should only see limited play in Pubs. Should. Pro players love them crutches... We can still damp hard to avoid Focused scans if we have too. And then we give that Gal Logi a blap to the face and then cap the depot. RE the spot for future use http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/395/5492 o7 Knowledge is power
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 5973	Posted - 2014.07.15 03:16:00 - [39] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Brokerib wrote: Will have to see how the rise of the Gal logi pans out. It's possible that it will end up being exploited again (4 x proto focused scanners while standing next to a supply depo to swap out for another suit with 4 scanners), but it should only see limited play in Pubs. Should. Pro players love them crutches... I don't think it will be particularly effective tbh. It will force scouts to use max dampened fits. If you can PROTECT that logi, it will severely hamper offensive scout capabilities due to the lack of HP or role bonuses they get. At that point, it becomes the scouts job to damp below scanning and attempt to take out the Logi. Teamwork will be a considerable help in this. Remember, we can still scan that logi with passives, so we will have to hunt him down and kill him wherever he is. How I Imagine I look when running Minmatar Scout PSN: EVL_Elgost105
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 5973	Posted - 2014.07.15 03:17:00 - [40] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Brokerib wrote: Grimmiers wrote: Impressive. The gallogi with a focus scanner would have to make a lot of guess work so it should be balanced. You could raise the pg of the focused to 24 just so you really have to sacrifice a lot to run 4 of them. After the gal logi bonus the pg would be brought down to 18. Will have to see how the rise of the Gal logi pans out. It's possible that it will end up being exploited again (4 x proto focused scanners while standing next to a supply depo to swap out for another suit with 4 scanners), but it should only see limited play in Pubs. Should. Pro players love them crutches... We can still damp hard to avoid Focused scans if we have too. And then we give that Gal Logi a blap to the face and then cap the depot. RE the spot for future use http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/395/5492 o7 Wouldn't have fit it any other way How I Imagine I look when running Minmatar Scout PSN: EVL_Elgost105

bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 346	Posted - 2014.07.15 03:46:00 - [41] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, after thoroughly discussing with the scout community, these are our proposed changes. EWAR Calculations I have documented all the necessary and relevant scenarios, I hope. At the top of the document, I have collected the key numbers and tried to put them into perspective. Galogi focused scanner gets the highest range and precision possible, due to it being 1) active, 2) narrow and 3) having a limited duration. This helps establish boundaries that scouts need to live within. That said, by a combination of racial bonuses and dedication of slots All scouts can have similar range, 76m to 91, under the Focused at 100m. This is under review, and I am looking at reducing Range amplifiers to 30% instead of the current 45%. All scouts can get under the focused scan dB by using a cloak, exception Gallente not needing cloak. All scouts can get under the best passive scan dB by using 2 dampeners and cloak or 3 dampeners. Best passive at 2 precision modules is beaten by best dampener at 2 dampening modules. Minmatar get a small PG boost, and all scouts can utilize a very slight PG reduction of KinCats andCodebreakers, possibly Nova Knifes. Nova Knifes will get increased Aim Adhesion, making hit detection work a little better in close quarters, a damage boost 120/160/200 and possibly a little increase in aim, 2.00m to 2.25m OR 2.50m This does not require Codebreakers to be in high, so don't assume that is the case. Please keep your comments civil and on topic. Changing bonuses to module efficacy or other ideas of the sort are not on the table for now. No ewar bonuses for MinScout? Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 346	Posted - 2014.07.15 03:49:00 - [42] - Quote Seymour KrelbornX wrote: what are you going to do about how far they can toss remotes? keep in mind with how hard they are to see already and how high they can jump and how fast they are, tossing remotes 10 meters almost undetected makes them OP... so they either need to be more easily detectable or the Frisbee mechanic needs a hard cap on how far they can be thrown. REs are equipment - they fit equipment slots. They should be placed, not thrown. If they are to be thrown like grenades, they should be moved to the grenade slot. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 346	Posted - 2014.07.15 03:57:00 - [43] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: SAIRAX SIS wrote: i agree... Cal Scout is already best Assaulting scout. (High-Shield Recharge, No movement penalty by Shield Tanking, Small Hitbox) In addition, it's that offset by new bonus, (weaknesses low slot is small) it is ABSURD. CCP was reduced Dumpting bonus to say fits becomes easy, and reducing the scan radius does not match the role of each scout when nerf Gallen te scout !!! The first place, because Gal Scout is hiding suit, I do not know the meaning to get a half-hearted Scan Precision, and do not know why to get Profile Dumpting bonus on Cal Scout. Behavior Mismatch. why? And...Scout side Though it is mandatory measures, Gal Logi is fine only with a focus scanner. OP. SIGH Assault changes are coming. Remember that. Rattati will buff the assault to make it a better choice than the scouts ( I have full faith in him. Get some assault players together and make a thread. If you are diligent in trying to improve the suit, help will come) Anyways: Cal gets dampening to help it stay hidden and provide long range, low power scans. A single damp, and a single range amp will probably be the best combo. Cal scouts scanning your med frame too much? Run a damp. 1x Damp will make you invisible to any Cal Scan or Min Scan. I suspect most Cal scouts will run 2x shields and 2x Precision. This will let them pick up any med frame not running 3x damps. However, at this point, they only have 308 shields and 87 armor. Easy prey if you catch them. Gal scouts are getting a precision bonus to make up for loss of range. It also helps stop the dual tanking problem, encouraging people to not stack HP. They are harder to detect, but do not possess the strong scans of the amarr. They can buff range a bit easier, but amarr will still win in the eWAR fight. Gal on the other hand, will still be masters of dampening, due to the huge amount of low slots and CPU/PG. You will still be a strongly damped Gal scout. It'll just take 2x damps and a cloak. Combine with the 2x precision? Wow, look! Only two slots left for HP! Notice what's happening? Passive bonuses are less attractive. You must use modules to get the best mileage out of the suit, and this cuts down on HP stacking. MinScout no haz ewar? Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 914	Posted - 2014.07.15 03:57:00 - [44] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: It will force scouts to use max dampened fits. If you can PROTECT that logi, it will severely hamper offensive scout capabilities due to the lack of HP or role bonuses they get. Will it, really? I think there's less to fear from a duvolle focused than a scout ck0 or ak0. GalLogi Duvolle Focused is 100m (nice) @ 60deg (marginal), with 7.5s active and 40s cool down (terrible). If you get scanned, you only have to survive for eight seconds to get your wave of opportunity back, unlike the permanently-on exclusion zone of an EWAR scout. Dust/Eve transfers
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1705	Posted - 2014.07.15 04:04:00 - [45] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: It will force scouts to use max dampened fits. If you can PROTECT that logi, it will severely hamper offensive scout capabilities due to the lack of HP or role bonuses they get. Will it, really? I think there's less to fear from a duvolle focused than a scout ck0 or ak0. GalLogi Duvolle Focused is 100m (nice) @ 60deg (marginal), with 7.5s active and 40s cool down (terrible). If you get scanned, you only have to survive for eight seconds to get your wave of opportunity back, unlike the permanently-on exclusion zone of an EWAR scout. This will hopefully be fixed by the removal of shared passive scans, so that either scouts need to do the hunting themselves (in low EHP fits), or need to use an active scanner to share the info with their squad, and make themselves vulnerable while informing the target. But CCP is unable to do so at this time (mentioned in the footnotes for Charlie). Knowledge is power
HowDidThatTaste Ancient Exiles. General Tso's Alliance 5109	Posted - 2014.07.15 04:05:00 - [46] - Quote Are we still ignoring that shots can be fired from cloak? This was supposed to be fixed in alpha I believe? So much effort and time spent on scouts and we can't fix this one broken mechanic that was already discussed in great detail, and was promised even before cloaks came out that they would not be able to shoot from cloak? The rest of these mechanics are nice but the huge elephant in the room is the cheapness of an alpha cloaked first shot It really makes this game cheesy
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1705	Posted - 2014.07.15 04:07:00 - [47] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: SAIRAX SIS wrote: i agree... Cal Scout is already best Assaulting scout. (High-Shield Recharge, No movement penalty by Shield Tanking, Small Hitbox) In addition, it's that offset by new bonus, (weaknesses low slot is small) it is ABSURD. CCP was reduced Dumpting bonus to say fits becomes easy, and reducing the scan radius does not match the role of each scout when nerf Gallen te scout !!! The first place, because Gal Scout is hiding suit, I do not know the meaning to get a half-hearted Scan Precision, and do not know why to get Profile Dumpting bonus on Cal Scout. Behavior Mismatch. why? And...Scout side Though it is mandatory measures, Gal Logi is fine only with a focus scanner. OP. SIGH Assault changes are coming. Remember that. Rattati will buff the assault to make it a better choice than the scouts ( I have full faith in him. Get some assault players together and make a thread. If you are diligent in trying to improve the suit, help will come) Anyways: Cal gets dampening to help it stay hidden and provide long range, low power scans. A single damp, and a single range amp will probably be the best combo. Cal scouts scanning your med frame too much? Run a damp. 1x Damp will make you invisible to any Cal Scan or Min Scan. I suspect most Cal scouts will run 2x shields and 2x Precision. This will let them pick up any med frame not running 3x damps. However, at this point, they only have 308 shields and 87 armor. Easy prey if you catch them. Gal scouts are getting a precision bonus to make up for loss of range. It also helps stop the dual tanking problem, encouraging people to not stack HP. They are harder to detect, but do not possess the strong scans of the amarr. They can buff range a bit easier, but amarr will still win in the eWAR fight. Gal on the other hand, will still be masters of dampening, due to the huge amount of low slots and CPU/PG. You will still be a strongly damped Gal scout. It'll just take 2x damps and a cloak. Combine with the 2x precision? Wow, look! Only two slots left for HP! Notice what's happening? Passive bonuses are less attractive. You must use modules to get the best mileage out of the suit, and this cuts down on HP stacking. MinScout no haz ewar? Min Scout has middle of the road EWAR, purely because of slot layout. Strengths are in it's functionallity (hacking and knifing), not EWAR capability. Knowledge is power
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1705	Posted - 2014.07.15 04:10:00 - [48] - Quote HowDidThatTaste wrote: Are we still ignoring that shots can be fired from cloak? This was supposed to be fixed in alpha I believe? So much effort and time spent on scouts and we can't fix this one broken mechanic that was already discussed in great detail, and was promised even before cloaks came out that they would not be able to shoot from cloak? The rest of these mechanics are nice but the huge elephant in the room is the cheapness of an alpha cloaked first shot It really makes this game cheesy Thought the de-cloak animation time has been reduced, mitigating the effectiveness of this? Still exists due to lag/rendering, but I haven't found this to be as much of an issue as it was originally. Obviously I still don't see scouts who de-cloak behind me, but I've noticed a diference with scrub scouts who attack head on. Knowledge is power
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers 751	Posted - 2014.07.15 04:22:00 - [49] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: SAIRAX SIS wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, after thoroughly discussing with the scout community, these are our proposed changes. EWAR Calculations Gal Scout unnecessary Precision bonus. Gal Scout needs Profile Dumpting -5%/lv only. they are Spy. arenot Recon. CCP Rattati wrote: Cat Merc wrote: So why are Gallente getting precision? Can someone explain to me the thinking here? What will its effects be? so it can get decent precision with their 2H slots, if that's what they want. Its a supplementary second skill to make sure all of them have two and to even the playing field. that's also why cal is getting a dampening bonus. As you can see, caldari also get a bit of dampening bonus. I think it gives them both a role while not getting too crazy or unbalanced. Plus like moody said, it gives them something to fill up all those slots with other than shield/armor tank. Well, no, Caldari don't just get "a bit of a dampening bonus" they get the same exact dampening bonus as the Gallente (who were supposed to be the sneaky scouts). And the Gallente get a minor precision bonus that is overshadowed by the Amarr scout's better bonus and the Caldari scout's 4 high slots. So, basically, the Gallente scout ends up being a lukewarm middleground with no particular role for itself. Also, PLEASE don't nerf the Range Amplifiers, at least not drastically, before you see the effects of all these other changes. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 6538	Posted - 2014.07.15 04:37:00 - [50] - Quote All scouts can get under the focused scan dB by using a cloak, exception Gallente not needing cloak. Hey, this was in your original post, this is what people want, this is the way it needs to be. Rattati, please ou may think it looks "Fair" and I'm sure you have the best intentions but please listen to the people that actually play the game on a regular bases. This is not a good idea. Making things more generalized and middle ground is the last thing this game needs more of, sadly it's what you guys think is the answer for most things. Very big mistake. Just please don't do it Rattati, for all of us. see you space cowboy...

RedPencil Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 46	Posted - 2014.07.15 04:43:00 - [51] - Quote @CCP Rattati Thx you very much to take time and afford to look deep in scout and NK The scout propose looks good. One concern is 360 spin bug. I'm not sure if CCP fix it yet, someone told me that it is still possible but tricky to do spin 270+ degree scans. NK damage for std look solid. However, little increase in range still need as current second swing often miss when enemy is running aways. *Could you explain the mechanic of Aim Adhesion. Will it work like aim bot or difference? Will it give a benefit only for dual shock or work with all input methods? Beware paper cut M[;..;]M
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6300	Posted - 2014.07.15 05:26:00 - [52] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Will have to see how the rise of the Gal logi pans out. It's possible that it will end up being exploited again (4 x proto focused scanners while standing next to a supply depo to swap out for another suit with 4 scanners), but it should only see limited play in Pubs. Should. Pro players love them crutches... Don't think it's going to be doing much 'Rising', based on initial impression. Knowing in the back of the mind that any and all Scouts can get underneath it makes me question why I'd even bother in the first place when there are scanners that are better used for general purpose, in which case (if I were a ground commander) I'd just tell the Gal Logi to focus on supporting the team and use an Amarr Scout instead due to it being entirely passive, since we're taking the 'we'll fix it later' approach with squad-shared passive scans. Everything should have it's counter but in this case, the Gallente Logistics has four counters on top of everything else on the battlefield, with one Scout being able to do his job with comparative - if not better - results until squad-shared vision is resolved. The problem isn't changing: Either Scouts will always be able to be scanned, and feel like there's no point... or Scouts will always be able to NOT be scanned and there's no point. It's always going to be the same argument until we introduce a level of uncertainty into the mix by changing game mechanics, essentially doing it (in my opinion) the way it should have been done from the beginning. Very early on, players were suggesting that you should be able to defeat the TacNet scan system -or- visual identification; one or the other. Now, we've decided to go against that ideal, suggesting there's more merit in designing directly to not only allow but encourage the use of both. I understand the logic, I understand the premise - we want more variety in the Scout play without one being substantially better than the others because of it's low profile (Gallente) but in doing this, all Scouts now have an option to circumvent the scanning mechanic, leaving the Gallente Logi in a sort of limbo where his dedicated support role is lacking the capability to counter four entire suits - suits his entire role is designed to combat - while he has to worry about everything else on the battlefield. A solution that could have potentially been easier to reach by changing the Gallente Logi and/or Active Scanners, though I suspect either change would only decrease the viability and usage of the Gallente Logi, by contrast. Ghost Kaisar wrote: It will force scouts to use max dampened fits. If you can PROTECT that logi, it will severely hamper offensive scout capabilities due to the lack of HP or role bonuses they get. At that point, it becomes the scouts job to damp below scanning and attempt to take out the Logi. Teamwork will be a considerable help in this. Remember, we can still scan that logi with passives, so we will have to hunt him down and kill him wherever he is. Gallente Logi has to make a lot of sacrifices to deter scouts what with Focused scanners having a 40s cooldown and a visibility of 8s. In order to make up for those numbers, you'd have to have four scanners and be constantly scanning - that's essentially taking the Logi out of the fight entirely and just turning him into a mobile radar; a liability. Even then, every single scout could just switch to their max EWAR fit to compensate and the sacrifice is meaningless. But yanno, I'm willing to try anything once. Just don't think it's going to work out as well as you think it will Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Zelda Harkinian Isuuaya Tactical Caldari State 95	Posted - 2014.07.15 05:34:00 - [53] - Quote oh wow! Thanks Rattati! there was a lot of doom and gloom about the CalScout but this is more than ok!! I love how our bonuses give us some breathing room so we don't have to rely so much on low slot modules (considering we have crappy low slots). And I'm not worried about losing precision because we have the high slots to stack precision mods. So thank you thank you thank you. (^_^ )
Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 3614	Posted - 2014.07.15 06:41:00 - [54] - Quote This is... meh Run, hide in fear while you can for the Amarr Scout is on the hunt! The eyes of God compelles you!!!
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3438	Posted - 2014.07.15 06:53:00 - [55] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: . . . If you do not run in organized squads, these changes will not affect you unless you are a scout, in which case you should see the logic in the proposal. . . . This is a pretty important aspect. If you're running 6-person squads there changes aren't going to change anything other than get a Gal-Logi to join your proto-bear squad. Scouts will be the most affected by it because it reduces the Scout vs Scout attrition. The reduction in the power of constant scout scans means the number of dampeners needed dropped from 3 to 2, making the Min Scout viable in competitive/full-proto play. The Amarr Scout will keep things honest. So will the Gal, to a lesser extent, and the Cal can match the Gal but at a cost. And what we mean when we say honest is that it behooves the scouts to run more than 1 dampener in the low slot preventing armor tanking. Here ya go, kids. My pre-charlie Gal Logi. http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/161/5442 Just to get under the proxi scanner the scout needs to have at least 2 dampeners or a proto dampener and proto cloak. it causes optimization attrition. There becomes 3 levels of what you need to do, (1) beat a gal proto scanner or Gal and Cal max precision (2) Beat an Amarr Scout and (3) beat the gal-focused scanner. (1) Gal Logi: 1 EQ at 35 CPU, 7PG; 21 dB Gal scout: 2 HS at 26CPU each; 21 db (2) Cal Scout: 4 HS at 26CPU each; 20 dB (3) AM Scout: 2 HS at 26CPU each; 18 dB (4) Gal Logi: 1 EQ at 29CPU, 14PG The first and second value a Min or Amarr needs to sacrifice 2 low slots For the first value a Cal and Gal both need a complex dampener, but for the second they need either a second dampener or an ADV cloak. For the third value the Min and Amarr need 2 dampeners and an ADV cloak. The thrid value the Gal and Cal need 2 dampeners For the fourth value the Min and Amarr need 3 dampeners and a PRO cloak The fourth value the Cal needs 2 dampeners and a PRO cloak The final value, the Gal Scout needs either 2 dampeners and a PRO cloak or 3 Dampeners. The only real change here is that the Caldari can participate in Stealth instead of having both the weakest dampening and the strongest scanning. Zaria Min Deir wrote: Well, no, Caldari don't just get "a bit of a dampening bonus" they get the same exact dampening bonus as the Gallente (who were supposed to be the sneaky scouts). And the Gallente get a minor precision bonus that is overshadowed by the Amarr scout's better bonus and the Caldari scout's 4 high slots. So, basically, the Gallente scout ends up being a lukewarm middleground with no particular role for itself. Also, PLEASE don't nerf the Range Amplifiers, at least not drastically, before you see the effects of all these other changes. You're definitely underestimating the freedom fitting that the Gal has to choose between 3 damps or a pro cloak. Even with a 75% reduction to fitting cost the Cloak has a greater PG cost than any other EQ (granted it is onle 1 PG over the next) it is also the third highest CPU costing EQ. Both of those simulateosly force you into giving up modules that you would otherwise use PRO versions for if you didn't want to run the cloak. off topic, wth though, why is the Cloak a Caldari module? It should be made by Duvolle Labs considering that Duvolle provided half the contributions for cloaking technology and the corp that provided the other half doesn't exist in DUST. On the Range Amps though. Yeah, reducing the value of range amps really just hurts Logistics that want to use EWAR. For the EWAR Logi the change in scout profile going from 5 db difference to 10 db difference already hurt them from 1.7 to present. No need to hurt them further. Now that that's over, shoo Zaria, shoo. leave the scout stuff to us. Go campaign for a better Logistics bonuses to be all encompassing instead of single racial EQ Appia Vibbia for CPM1 Personal Theme Song
Ramux PATAPON LORD-BRITISH 30	Posted - 2014.07.15 06:56:00 - [56] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: EWAR Calculations All scouts can get under the focused scan dB by using a cloak, exception Gallente not needing cloak. All scouts can get under the best passive scan dB by using 2 dampeners and cloak or 3 dampeners. Best passive at 2 precision modules is beaten by best dampener at 2 dampening modules. Dampeners have stacking penalty? It is not written in game explanations like KinCats, Stimulator or so. Please answer my question Do 1)Range Amplifiers,2)Profile Dampeners,3)Precision Enhancers has stacking penalties? Translating DUST News into Japanese.. so quickly like Scout suits.. @FPSholicsDiary
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3440	Posted - 2014.07.15 07:30:00 - [57] - Quote Ramux PATAPON wrote: Dampeners have stacking penalty? It is not written in game explanations like KinCats, Stimulator or so. Please answer my question Do 1)Range Amplifiers,2)Profile Dampeners,3)Precision Enhancers has stacking penalties? All of these have stacking penalties. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 Personal Theme Song
Crimson ShieId Psygod9 668	Posted - 2014.07.15 09:24:00 - [58] - Quote Please, oh please don't reduce the effectiveness on range amps. These things are already barely useful on anything but scouts as is, reducing them will not only likely encourage a lesser variety of modules on suits, but will further restrict the possibility of other suit types actually using them. Nova Knives are best sidearm.
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers 752	Posted - 2014.07.15 09:24:00 - [59] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Now that that's over, shoo Zaria, shoo. leave the scout stuff to us. Go campaign for a better Logistics bonuses to be all encompassing instead of single racial EQ. Amarr Scout with 2 precision, 1 range, 3 plates, rep tool and allotek nanohive is still better than a support choice because it can use the hives and rep tool just as well as a Gal-Logi. That's not a fault of the scout but the fact that logistics are lacking. Oh right, I forgot, people who who aren't part of your little clique of "real" scouts aren't allowed to have ANY opinion about the scout suits... Also, you're the only one of the two of us that needs to campaign for anything, sweetie. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6302	Posted - 2014.07.15 09:39:00 - [60] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: off topic, wth though, why is the Cloak a Caldari module? It should be made by Duvolle Labs considering that Duvolle provided half the contributions for cloaking technology and the corp that provided the other half doesn't exist in DUST. On the Range Amps though. Yeah, reducing the value of range amps really just hurts Logistics that want to use EWAR. For the EWAR Logi the change in scout profile going from 5 db difference to 10 db difference already hurt them from 1.7 to present. No need to hurt them further. Now that that's over, shoo Zaria, shoo. leave the scout stuff to us. Go campaign for a better Logistics bonuses to be all encompassing instead of single racial EQ. Amarr Scout with 2 precision, 1 range, 3 plates, rep tool and allotek nanohive is still better than a support choice because it can use the hives and rep tool just as well as a Gal-Logi. That's not a fault of the scout but the fact that logistics are lacking. I don't think the racial/corporation make of the equipment even matters. It's cosmetic and arbitrary by itself but beyond that there have been equipment pieces in the past (closed beta) that existed to give evidence to just how arbitrary it was. CreoDron Drop Uplinks, Viziam Repair Tools, etc. It's a title, a name-change, if anything. As far as the range amps... I'd like to see the data as to how many Logistics actually use range amps for any reason other than it was the only thing they could fit at the time. Shooing away a player who disagreed with you kinda [redacted] me off, especially coming from someone who said in the Dust-match that only the community's opinion should be taken into account... Ignoring that obvious attack on character, however, I'd like to know what you intend to do if anything about the "lacking" Gallente Logistics is changed to accommodate better bonuses. How unfortunate it would be, if after all this work, the Gallente Logistics was buffed. Though, I am glad that you see an obvious flaw in the Gal Logi/Amarr Scout balance... Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1



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