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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
1685
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Posted - 2014.07.15 01:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
Just to provide some context for the changes.
The listed changes have been discussed with sections of the scout community at length, and are endorsed as the best option available under the current limitations (server side changes only, etc).
As it stands, everyone in competitive play is either using the Cal scout as a hyper scanner in a 6 man squad, or the Gal at max dampening to counter it. The Amarr scout continues to lack a defined role and the Minmatar is being sidelined to the point that it is no longer appearing in competitive play. CCP has stats to back it up.
The Cal scouts solo is not the problem. The Cal scout in a group is. They've become the new 360 scanner, but worse. Worse because, unlike active scanners, there's no warning, no cool down, and no way to avoid it outside of very specific fits (in effect, just the Gal scout).
Removal of passive scanning has been requested to fix this issue (pushing Scouts to use active scanners to 'paint' targets if they want to share them with team mates), but is not technically feasible at this time. Check footnotes for hot-fix Charlie.
This change is a blance fix while the technical details of removing shared passive scans is worked out, along with implementing module efficacy bonuses to replace the current passive bonuses (also in the footnotes for Charlie), to move scouts away from brick tanking.
With the expected changes, all scouts will be able to reasonably drop off tac net (2 damps + cloak, or 3 damps), and will all have viable range and precision (though Amarr and Cal will excel), and there will be a viable reason for all scouts to fit something other than armor or shield modules.
In effect it gives the Amarr scout a worthwhile bonus (and hopefully a worthwhile role) and makes the Minmatar scout viable in competitive play again, while normalising EWAR across all scouts.
It also re-intoduces the Gal logi as the go to battlefield scanner, with all the pro's and con's of active scanning (better range, very high precision, but time limited, alerts the target, and exposes the user).
Feel free to ask if you want more info.
o7
Knowledge is power
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
1690
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Posted - 2014.07.15 02:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
Grimmiers wrote:Impressive. The gallogi with a focus scanner would have to make a lot of guess work so it should be balanced. You could raise the pg of the focused to 24 just so you really have to sacrifice a lot to run 4 of them. After the gal logi bonus the pg would be brought down to 18.
Will have to see how the rise of the Gal logi pans out. It's possible that it will end up being exploited again (4 x proto focused scanners while standing next to a supply depo to swap out for another suit with 4 scanners), but it should only see limited play in Pubs. Should. Pro players love them crutches...
Knowledge is power
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
1698
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Posted - 2014.07.15 03:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:Brokerib wrote:Grimmiers wrote:Impressive. The gallogi with a focus scanner would have to make a lot of guess work so it should be balanced. You could raise the pg of the focused to 24 just so you really have to sacrifice a lot to run 4 of them. After the gal logi bonus the pg would be brought down to 18.
Will have to see how the rise of the Gal logi pans out. It's possible that it will end up being exploited again (4 x proto focused scanners while standing next to a supply depo to swap out for another suit with 4 scanners), but it should only see limited play in Pubs. Should. Pro players love them crutches... We can still damp hard to avoid Focused scans if we have too. And then we give that Gal Logi a blap to the face and then cap the depot. RE the spot for future use 
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/395/5492
o7
Knowledge is power
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
1705
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Posted - 2014.07.15 04:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
SponkSponkSponk wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:It will force scouts to use max dampened fits. If you can PROTECT that logi, it will severely hamper offensive scout capabilities due to the lack of HP or role bonuses they get. Will it, really? I think there's less to fear from a duvolle focused than a scout ck0 or ak0. GalLogi Duvolle Focused is 100m (nice) @ 60deg (marginal), with 7.5s active and 40s cool down (terrible). If you get scanned, you only have to survive for eight seconds to get your wave of opportunity back, unlike the permanently-on exclusion zone of an EWAR scout.
This will hopefully be fixed by the removal of shared passive scans, so that either scouts need to do the hunting themselves (in low EHP fits), or need to use an active scanner to share the info with their squad, and make themselves vulnerable while informing the target. But CCP is unable to do so at this time (mentioned in the footnotes for Charlie).
Knowledge is power
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
1705
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Posted - 2014.07.15 04:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
bogeyman m wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:SAIRAX SIS wrote:
i agree...
Cal Scout is already best Assaulting scout. (High-Shield Recharge, No movement penalty by Shield Tanking, Small Hitbox)
In addition, it's that offset by new bonus, (weaknesses low slot is small) it is ABSURD.
CCP was reduced Dumpting bonus to say fits becomes easy, and reducing the scan radius does not match the role of each scout when nerf Gallen te scout !!!
The first place, because Gal Scout is hiding suit, I do not know the meaning to get a half-hearted Scan Precision, and do not know why to get Profile Dumpting bonus on Cal Scout.
Behavior Mismatch. why?
And...Scout side Though it is mandatory measures, Gal Logi is fine only with a focus scanner. OP.
*SIGH* Assault changes are coming. Remember that. Rattati will buff the assault to make it a better choice than the scouts ( I have full faith in him. Get some assault players together and make a thread. If you are diligent in trying to improve the suit, help will come) Anyways: Cal gets dampening to help it stay hidden and provide long range, low power scans. A single damp, and a single range amp will probably be the best combo. Cal scouts scanning your med frame too much? Run a damp. 1x Damp will make you invisible to any Cal Scan or Min Scan. I suspect most Cal scouts will run 2x shields and 2x Precision. This will let them pick up any med frame not running 3x damps. However, at this point, they only have 308 shields and 87 armor. Easy prey if you catch them. Gal scouts are getting a precision bonus to make up for loss of range. It also helps stop the dual tanking problem, encouraging people to not stack HP. They are harder to detect, but do not possess the strong scans of the amarr. They can buff range a bit easier, but amarr will still win in the eWAR fight. Gal on the other hand, will still be masters of dampening, due to the huge amount of low slots and CPU/PG. You will still be a strongly damped Gal scout. It'll just take 2x damps and a cloak. Combine with the 2x precision? Wow, look! Only two slots left for HP! Notice what's happening? Passive bonuses are less attractive. You must use modules to get the best mileage out of the suit, and this cuts down on HP stacking. MinScout no haz ewar?
Min Scout has middle of the road EWAR, purely because of slot layout. Strengths are in it's functionallity (hacking and knifing), not EWAR capability.
Knowledge is power
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
1705
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Posted - 2014.07.15 04:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
HowDidThatTaste wrote:Are we still ignoring that shots can be fired from cloak? This was supposed to be fixed in alpha I believe?
So much effort and time spent on scouts and we can't fix this one broken mechanic that was already discussed in great detail, and was promised even before cloaks came out that they would not be able to shoot from cloak?
The rest of these mechanics are nice but the huge elephant in the room is the cheapness of an alpha cloaked first shot
It really makes this game cheesy
Thought the de-cloak animation time has been reduced, mitigating the effectiveness of this? Still exists due to lag/rendering, but I haven't found this to be as much of an issue as it was originally. Obviously I still don't see scouts who de-cloak behind me, but I've noticed a diference with scrub scouts who attack head on.
Knowledge is power
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
1729
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Posted - 2014.07.15 23:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Sorry Zaria!  @RedPencil, yeah, I agree that Minmatar could do with some help: NK is cool,but not really necessary for being a scout. They can keep it and get a whole extra bonus, it wouldn't make them OP. I just want to see that Gallente precision bonus be useful.
I disagree. The nova knife is essential to being a scout 
Rattati had mentiond a possible speed increase for the min. Combined with the possibility of moving code breakers to high and the ability to actually damp, and we end up in a fairly reasonable place. The min scout, with the highest alpha damage potential of any suit, shouldn't have too many advantages. Nova knife spam would be a thing of horror...and possibly comedy 
And you never know, the request we made for nova knives to do half damage to vehicles on a charged shot may get a look in too...
Knowledge is power
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
1764
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Posted - 2014.07.16 23:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
Jadd Hatchen wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:Seymour KrelbornX wrote:what are you going to do about how far they can toss remotes?
keep in mind with how hard they are to see already and how high they can jump and how fast they are, tossing remotes 10 meters almost undetected makes them OP...
so they either need to be more easily detectable or the Frisbee mechanic needs a hard cap on how far they can be thrown. If you are routinely getting killed by killer frisbee's, then you REALLY need to invest in some situational awareness. No he is right. RE's are NOT supposed to be throwable. They are supposed to be a charge that you SET on the ground/wall/vehicle/ceiling/etc and then leave in place. NOT a grenade!!!! But that is also off topic...
Based on what? You seem to have a very firm opinion on what REs are meant to be, but I don't see any basis for it in game. We can currently throw them short distances, aided by height. But no where near the distance of a grenade, and always with a low arc.
Knowledge is power
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
1765
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Posted - 2014.07.16 23:43:00 -
[9] - Quote
Bormir1r wrote:RedPencil wrote:@ CCP Rattati One more thing after spend sometime stare at your EWAR table. Min scout still look less attractive even for speed hacking propose when compare to Gal scout. *Gal need only 2 Damp + cloak to stay invisible from anyone. That means Adv Gal will have 1 L left to fit codebreak (25% match Min bonus) or whatever they want, and they also have inner rep + 2 H for fit tank. *Adv Min have only 2 L. Can hide from other scout with 2 damp but not focus scan. No inner rep and no slot to fit codebreak. *Proto Min will suffer the same, Improve from Adv but still lost to Gal. (3 Damp to be invisible and then ran out of slot)  Then why bother run Min? Even will Adv level, Gal have better chance to hack, survive, better potential and option. Only one reason I can think of choice Min over Gal is just for knifing. Even Min logo have better hacking speed on base stat (Min logi 1.2 / Min scout 1.1). BTW, I'm still waiting for your answer for those questions. This has always been the argument for the Min, and I completely agree with you...perhaps there could be pg reductions for codebreakers and kincats exclusively for Min Scouts?
I think all we need is code breakers to go to highs, and for cloaks to have a standardised profile reduction (10% at all tiers). Fitting reductions for kin cats, code breakers, and nova knives has already been flagged, along with a slight increase to PG for Min scouts.
I'm happy with needing a proto Min scout to get under a proto Gal logi with a focused scanner (that's a sizeable investment on their part, and with significant limitations), but having to run proto to avoid other scouts due to the fitting costs of a top tier cloak is too much.
Code breakers to high means and standardised cloak dampening bonus means I could run an Advanced Min scout with 2 x damps and an advanced or standard cloak to get under other scouts, while still having the ability to fit code breakers to get my hack on. Otherwise it must be a proto suit to a) be able to fit a proto cloak and, b) to be able to fit a hacking module while remaining passively invisible.
Knowledge is power
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
1777
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Posted - 2014.07.17 03:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:bogeyman m wrote:When I am killed by REs, it is usually from a 10m-15m distance - rarely from under 10m and occasionally from 30m+ (I'm guessing those are dropped from buildings/towers). Those are grenade distances. When you get killed by REs, how are you measuring these distances? That is a very important question: the likelihood that the scout tossed the RE then immediately backpedaled away/laterally is very high, adding to combat time-dilated perception. The other point you mentioned is also very important: REs now have more than slightly significant activation delays. Shooting the Scout and manoeuvring during the activation is important and, more to point, actually possible.
Also forgetting REs that have been placed before the enemy arrive.
I normally only go to REs if the enemies back is turned, or I'm able to drop them from a height. And I make sure to be at least 6m away so I don't get caught in the blast radius, as REs will kill me several times over.
Might be worthwhile testing the mechanic yourself to see how it works, but you won't see a throw that's anywhere near 10m unless you've got a height advantage. 3-4m tops.
Knowledge is power
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
1811
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Posted - 2014.07.18 13:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
bogeyman m wrote:One Eyed King wrote:
Exactly.
Not all equipment is the same!
So stop comparing them when its convenient to your rationalizations and ignoring it when its inconvenient.
REs are their own thing. They are not grenades, and they don't get thrown like grenades. They are not Uplinks, and are not thrown like Uplinks.
If you think they are being thrown too far, come up with a new, legitimate argument, because this one is dead and ineffective.
Right. REs (and Proxys) are the only "equipment" that can kill someone/something. As such, I think it a reasonable argument that they should not be considered "equipment" at all. You keep defending your crutch though...
Really? Is everything a crutch these days? If you see someone going 60-0 with REs then come back and talk about crutches.
You can define things however you like. But CCP has defined them as equipment, and has made them deployable at a distance. That's the reality of the situation.
If you have an opinion on how or why REs are overpowered, beyond their ability to kill you, then feel free to make a reasoned arguement. Because you're not managing it so far.
Knowledge is power
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