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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
628
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Posted - 2014.07.15 15:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
Looking over the spreadsheet and something hit me: Gallente precision is essentially pointless - you're already scanning all Heavies, Logis and Assaults, unless massive sacrifices are made and you're not scanning any good (ie, EWar dampened Scouts who are evading their nemesis the GalLogi) so...why the hell have it?
The precision is nigh useless and the Gallente have to make exactly the same amount of sacrifice as Caldari to dodge the GalLogi...which is eating Gallente primary tank, but not Caldari. At the same time, Caldari is getting a brilliant bonus that still applies against all of the medium/heavy frames (ie, spotting them from a million miles away) and still getting to dodge GalLogi scans with a small sacrifice (their secondary tank) while their precision, as a Scout, is sufficiently low to scan down medium/heavy frames all day long!
What I'm trying to say is that GalScout precision is essentially pointless. Caldari profile? Fair enough, it lets them actually evade the GalLogi scans, so it's needed from a numerical standpoint. But the GalScout precision is doing nothing to help where it matters.
At the highest level, the Gallente precision bonus is doing nothing to help it: it's not scanning down Scouts, because all are dampened and you're already scanning down all medium and heavy frames with two Precision Enhancers. Same thing could be said for the Amarr bonus, which is essentially getting negated by the GalLogi threat causing all Scouts to dodge the Amarr precision by association.
So really, what is the point of the GalScout precision bonus? The bonus to profile means that it's no longer the best at dampening (because CalScout is the same: 2 damps and a cloak) and its precision does not help.
At the end of the day the issue is this:
Of the Gallente still has to make a reasonable sacrifice to evade scans (ie, pretty much the same as everyone else) and it's scans are weaker than 2/3 of the others...why use Gallente? They can all evade scans (perfectly fine, they're all Scouts) but Gallente still sacrifices just as much to do so, yet receives weaker bonuses, relative to the role they play. If Gallente could dodge all scans with 2 dampeners, then they'd be much more able to fit EWar to compensate for their unbonused elements.
Alt of Halla Murr.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
628
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Posted - 2014.07.15 17:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
Reposted after Aeon/Zaria's beard discussion...
Looking over the spreadsheet and something hit me: Gallente precision is essentially pointless - you're already scanning all Heavies, Logis and Assaults, unless massive sacrifices are made and you're not scanning any good (ie, EWar dampened Scouts who are evading their nemesis the GalLogi) so...why the hell have it?
The precision is nigh useless and the Gallente have to make exactly the same amount of sacrifice as Caldari to dodge the GalLogi...which is eating Gallente primary tank, but not Caldari. At the same time, Caldari is getting a brilliant bonus that still applies against all of the medium/heavy frames (ie, spotting them from a million miles away) and still getting to dodge GalLogi scans with a small sacrifice (their secondary tank) while their precision, as a Scout, is sufficiently low to scan down medium/heavy frames all day long!
What I'm trying to say is that GalScout precision is essentially pointless. Caldari profile? Fair enough, it lets them actually evade the GalLogi scans, so it's needed from a numerical standpoint. But the GalScout precision is doing nothing to help where it matters.
At the highest level, the Gallente precision bonus is doing nothing to help it: it's not scanning down Scouts, because all are dampened and you're already scanning down all medium and heavy frames with two Precision Enhancers. Same thing could be said for the Amarr bonus, which is essentially getting negated by the GalLogi threat causing all Scouts to dodge the Amarr precision by association.
So really, what is the point of the GalScout precision bonus? The bonus to profile means that it's no longer the best at dampening (because CalScout is the same: 2 damps and a cloak) and its precision does not help.
At the end of the day the issue is this:
Of the Gallente still has to make a reasonable sacrifice to evade scans (ie, pretty much the same as everyone else) and it's scans are weaker than 2/3 of the others...why use Gallente? They can all evade scans (perfectly fine, they're all Scouts) but Gallente still sacrifices just as much to do so, yet receives weaker bonuses, relative to the role they play. If Gallente could dodge all scans with 2 dampeners, then they'd be much more able to fit EWar to compensate for their unbonused elements.
Alt of Halla Murr.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
628
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Posted - 2014.07.15 18:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Kallas Hallytyr wrote:
Looking over the spreadsheet and something hit me: Gallente precision is essentially pointless -
When you say pointless, do you mean +1% scan radius per level pointless or another kind of slightly better pointless?
We've taken to calling undampened Scouts "Assault Lite". With only one precision enhancer, the GalScout can join in on the hunting (at 26dB and above). Soon the CalScout's heavy burden of hunting "Assault Lite" will be shared by AM, CA, and GA. In my estimation, "progress" seems a more apt descriptor than "pointless".
Yes, the precision bonus is better than the current, ****** range bonus. But by pointless I mean: it has zero impact on the uppermost level, and has next to no impact on any level where dampening is even vaguely used. The point is that the bonus to precision is small enough to not step on toes, but so small that it will not affect any Scout fitting a single dampener and any fitting more than one will easily evade the GalScout scans.
More to the point, any going to the effort to avoid being scanned will likely fit two dampeners, rendering the GalScout bonus moot: you already scan mediums/heavies and you will not scan any Scoutly Scouts (ie, non-Brick Tanked Scouts.)
So in essence, it is as useless as the range bonus we have now, because Scouts will be being pointed at EWar/dampening more heavily than before.
Edit: a better summation of my point:
The new GalScout precision bonus will not let you scan anything that you wouldn't scan before, because other changes make Scout dampening much more likely.
Alt of Halla Murr.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
629
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Posted - 2014.07.15 18:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Problem:
More Brick-Tanked Scouts than Scoutly Scouts
Solution:
Equip more Scouts to hunt Brick-Tanked Scouts
Outcome:
More Scoutly Scouts than Brick-Tanked Scouts
I get that idea, and great. But a scan precision bonus to the GalScout is irrelevant in that regard. I already fit dual ADV enhancers and I detect brick tanked scouts. It takes Cal/Gal one complex dampener and Am/Min two to evade a dual complex enhancer GalScout.
Considering that will drop them lower than all but the AmScout or GalLogi scans, that's not really unlikely to see...or not see as it may be!
All I'm saying is that a different bonus should be considered. 2% hack speed/level wouldn't step on MinScout toes but would be much more useful. Or even upping the 1% range to 2 or 3% would give us something: Amarr low range, low precision; Caldari high range, high precision; Gallente mid range, high precision. We'd be equal with Caldari for dampening, and Amarr could tank better if it chose to, or fit range amps to match.
Evidently few agree with me.
Alt of Halla Murr.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
629
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Posted - 2014.07.15 18:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:New Problem:
1000HP GalLogi permascanning Scoutly Scouts
New Problem:
Scouts now too squishy to combat Heavy Spam <------ (free tip: here's your next FotM)
Scouts too squishy? Yep, that's called a trade off. They do, however, get a guaranteed first strike, since they won't get scanned, with all Scouts able to evade all scans.
GalLogi cannot scan any Scout if they choose to dampen.
Alt of Halla Murr.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
629
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Posted - 2014.07.15 18:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:1. First Strike only gets you so far, and First Strike is far from guaranteed.
2. Indeed; 100k suits will beat a 30k scanner provided they fill their Lows with damps.
My point is that evading GalScout scans is:
Easy, for Scouts and will commonly be done
Already difficult, for mediums and will only be marginally more difficult post Charlie
Irrelevantly difficult, for heavies.
You've yet to really refute my point that the 2% precision/level is irrelevant considering both the current and upcoming meta.
Alt of Halla Murr.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
629
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Posted - 2014.07.15 19:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Don't get me wrong; your concerns are absolutely warranted and valid. Many of us have previously shared these concerns; some of us likely still do. We've been talking about this stuff for months ... how to "fix" Scout problems ... and we've come to recognize that there is no perfect solution. Rattati's proposal is as good as anything we've come up with to date; it addresses the majority of our core concerns and may bring our FotM to a welcome end.
I say we give it a shot and hope for best.
Worst case scenario, Scouts get crushed by better Assaults, Logi permascan, and endless Heavy spam.
Welcome back to Hard Mode :-)
Hah! I appreciate that response. I did kind of pine for the days when I started scouting, dodging around people without the cloak being around.
Still, I just feel something else - small - would just be more useful. Even a 1% to hack speed would be useful, because it would still always apply to any hack without being negated by there being much bigger threats (read: everyone dampening because of AmScout/GalLogi.)
I mean, I also get that the precision will be really helpful when finding all those snowflakes who run their AmScout with shields and biotics... But that just doesn't feel like a worthwhile bonus to me.
Alt of Halla Murr.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
630
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Posted - 2014.07.15 20:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
Sorry Zaria! 
@RedPencil, yeah, I agree that Minmatar could do with some help: NK is cool,but not really necessary for being a scout. They can keep it and get a whole extra bonus, it wouldn't make them OP. I just want to see that Gallente precision bonus be useful.
Alt of Halla Murr.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
651
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Posted - 2014.07.17 03:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:bogeyman m wrote:When I am killed by REs, it is usually from a 10m-15m distance - rarely from under 10m and occasionally from 30m+ (I'm guessing those are dropped from buildings/towers). Those are grenade distances. When you get killed by REs, how are you measuring these distances?
That is a very important question: the likelihood that the scout tossed the RE then immediately backpedaled away/laterally is very high, adding to combat time-dilated perception.
The other point you mentioned is also very important: REs now have more than slightly significant activation delays. Shooting the Scout and manoeuvring during the activation is important and, more to point, actually possible.
Alt of Halla Murr.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
668
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Posted - 2014.07.20 16:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
xAckie wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Scoutly things which consume PG:
* Code Breakers
* Remote Explosives
* Uplinks
* Cloak
* Cardiac Regulators
* Kinetic Catalyzers
* Ferroscale Plates
* Reactive Plates
* Nova Knives
We also use these not-necessarily-Scoutly things:
* Primary Weapons
* Secondary Weapons
* Grenades
* Shield Extenders EWAR is 'scoutly things'. Thats why other classes dont use those modules All the modules you list, bar cloak, are used by all other classes
While there certainly are things on the list that other roles use, there are many that show up most commonly on Scouts: Cloaks are obvious; KinCats are very commonly associated with Scouts; REs and Uplinks are staple Scout equipment and while other classes definitely use them as least as much, they are high PG tools which is the point being discussed.
Alt of Halla Murr.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
668
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Posted - 2014.07.20 16:50:00 -
[11] - Quote
xAckie wrote:They are as much a staple of the others. That's the point I was making. I dont think they are special to 'scout'.
Special to Scouts, not really. But commonly used, such that a PG nerf would actually impact upon using them, despite the fact that Scouts deploying things like uplinks are a part of what Scouts are for.
Alt of Halla Murr.
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