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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 12 post(s)

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 2234	Posted - 2014.06.09 07:12:00 - [1] - Quote Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill. Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful. We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship. Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 10	Posted - 2014.06.09 07:36:00 - [2] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill. Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful. We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship. Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in. Increase cooldown time of afterburner Fixed. If you put it on a python the python is VERY weak, and incubus sacrfices recourses to use it. It's fine tbh. Not everyone uses an ab. Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 11043	Posted - 2014.06.09 07:54:00 - [3] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill. Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful. We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship. Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in. I support assault swarm launchers being changed for long range and high speed targets, as long as there is a tradeoff to DPS. Even without the sped boost module, an assault dropship can easily escape swarms as they currently. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Meee One BATTLE SURVEY GROUP Dark Taboo 821	Posted - 2014.06.09 07:54:00 - [4] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill. Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful. We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship. Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in. Introduce a Breach Swarm launcher that works at longer ranges but it's missles are slower with more damage. Give it 1.6 missle distance,with it's current lock on radius. Problem semi-solved.
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 10	Posted - 2014.06.09 07:56:00 - [5] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill. Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful. We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship. Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in. I support assault swarm launchers being changed for long range and high speed targets, as long as there is a tradeoff to DPS. Even without the sped boost module, an assault dropship can easily escape swarms as they currently. No, they can't, I've used the python for a long time, at full speed swarms still hit you. Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.
X7 lion Inner.Hell 208	Posted - 2014.06.09 08:14:00 - [6] - Quote pilots are all around shafted, you have to be rediculosly close to see infantry compared to infantry vs infantry and a big section of your screen is consumed by the ship & first person shooting isnt viable because you either steer or aim no either of system or a combo of both some how, honestly dropship combat needs to be reworked so that its less awkward to shoot stuff with out being able to see it because your in your own way. Hey look a distraction!
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 502	Posted - 2014.06.09 08:37:00 - [7] - Quote Pythons are fine, I have a pro fit, and 1 good swarmer can chase me off with a 1 round hitting me, even if it is only for a limited time. Forges, already 2 hit-3 hit me. I also have a prof 5 swarm launcher, and after 1 rnd hits, and they know they other one is coming, they high-tail it out of there, I chase them off, mission complete. Now my incubus on the other hand, I can put 2 basic heavy reps on that sucker, and tank 1-2 normal swarm guys all day long. Forges, if they're more than 1 of them, or a swarm launcher with him, can turn me away quickly. And while using my swarm launcher, i can launch a volley of 3 shots, and by the time i've reloaded, they're back to full health. (same with the repper maddies) I normally die after my first volley . :) Maybe this leads back to the stacked armor repairs being op :P Support Assault changes
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 3210	Posted - 2014.06.09 08:48:00 - [8] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill. Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful. We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship. Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in. This is all nice but there is still a huge issue with armor based dropships. They currently only take 55% damage from swarms. That means when i put only a single basic heavy rep on a armor dropship it becomes literally imune vs. swarm launchers. That needs to be brought in line with shield dropships which take proper damage.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 502	Posted - 2014.06.09 08:53:00 - [9] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill. Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful. We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship. Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in. This is all nice but there is still a huge issue with armor based dropships. They currently only take 55% damage from swarms. That means when i put only a single basic heavy rep on a armor dropship it becomes literally imune vs. swarm launchers. That needs to be brought in line with shield dropships which take proper damage. exactly Support Assault changes

ChribbaX Otherworld Enterprises Dust Control Otherworld Empire Productions 1170	Posted - 2014.06.09 08:56:00 - [10] - Quote One major thing I've noticed is the lock range being a problem, not just that it's short, but it's said to be 200m, I've had dropships and tanks at 165m and still unable to lock them. Many times this is when I am high up and the target closer to the ground. DUSTSearch DUSTBoard DUST Server Status


Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 567	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:00:00 - [11] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: This is all nice but there is still a huge issue with armor based dropships. They currently only take 55% damage from swarms. That means when i put only a single basic heavy rep on a armor dropship it becomes literally imune vs. swarm launchers. That needs to be brought in line with shield dropships which take proper damage. This ought to be priority number one. We can't even start to look at the problem if the numbers aren't fixed.
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 734	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:06:00 - [12] - Quote Afterburners should follow the same format as other vehicle modules: high cooldown times at standard and faster cooldown times at higher tiers. Afterburner modules have a crazy low 10s cooldown at standard which can be abused to attack, retreat, and re-attack without much delay. Afterburners at standard need to have a base cooldown of around 45s at standard and no less than 25s at prototype. For swarms, there's an huge gap in performance between standard and prototype and which makes standard and advanced swarms not very useful. Another issue is how effective rep tanking incubi are; they can outrep the damage output of swarms easily, fly away with afterburners when there's too much AV, comeback after repping all the damage away in under 10s, and continue attacking. Here are some stats (will make a spreadsheet with lots more information) [Incubus A] ADV AT-1 missile launcher STD Afterburner STD Heavy armor repairer 2 PRO Light armor repairer Armor repair per second: 337.5 HP/s [Incubus B] PRO XT-1 missile launcher STD Afterburner ADV Heavy armor repairer 2 PRO Light armor repairer Amor repair per second: 311.5 HP/s An Ishukone assault forgegun with max out stats can deal a DPS of 515.6 when you factor in reloading and charge time, but because of the high alpha damage it would take around 6.75s with 3 shots to kill a rep tanked incubus if all the shots hit when you take into account its repair rate. Basically vehicle armor reps are too effective (way better than shield regen also), they need a nerf and or a stacking penalty. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 2239	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:08:00 - [13] - Quote As a pilot i can say that generally swarms are not a incredible problem depending on the DS. Gallente ships are almost unkillable with a swarm launcher, because they can rep too fast. Caldari ships are more subsceptible and they need fast escape. As AV i can say that generally FG are better to deal with DS, swarms can kill DS if there is a multiple effort. I agree with a buff on the assault swarm launcher LOCK ON range, on missile speed, but not on missile range. Afterall swarmers should deal with DS when they are near land and create problems to the infantry, not when they are flying high, afterburners are fine in my opinion, DS pilots need a way to avoid infantry fire. PSN: ogamega Never f* with a Galdari.
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 10	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:09:00 - [14] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Afterburners should follow the same format as other vehicle modules: high cooldown times at standard and faster cooldown times at higher tiers. Afterburner modules have a crazy low 10s cooldown at standard which can be abused to attack, retreat, and re-attack without much delay. Afterburners at standard need to have a base cooldown of around 45s at standard and no less than 25s at prototype. For swarms, there's an huge gap in performance between standard and prototype and which makes standard and advanced swarms not very useful. Another issue is how effective rep tanking incubi are; they can outrep the damage output of swarms easily, fly away with afterburners when there's too much AV, comeback after repping all the damage away in under 10s, and continue attacking. Here are some stats (will make a spreadsheet with lots more information) [Incubus A] ADV AT-1 missile launcher STD Afterburner STD Heavy armor repairer 2 PRO Light armor repairer Armor repair per second: 337.5 HP/s [Incubus B] PRO XT-1 missile launcher STD Afterburner ADV Heavy armor repairer 2 PRO Light armor repairer Amor repair per second: 311.5 HP/s An Ishukone assault forgegun with max out stats can deal a DPS of 515.6 when you factor in reloading and charge time, but because of the high alpha damage it would take around 6.75s with 3 shots to kill a rep tanked incubus if all the shots hit when you take into account its repair rate. Basically vehicle armor reps are too effective (way better than shield regen also), they need a nerf and or a stacking penalty. No Just no Those are crap fittings and the incubus needs more pg to fit a basic or adv heavy rep, complex hard and basic plate. Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2172	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:15:00 - [15] - Quote I am going to tackle the question specifically in a new video,. But If you have not really fought swarms in a dropship watch this overview video of what it is like from and ADS view and why swarms often fail. It is 17 minutes long but shows some of the issues we face. I will, as I said, make a more detailed and specific responce for CCP and post it here too. That way we can talk about facts, not myth. Note the "damage mod active" message is a bug. It sometimes sticks to the swarm after you die fighting a tank with a damage mod on, which happend to me in that battle Judge For CPM 1 youtube Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1595	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:27:00 - [16] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I am going to tackle the question specifically in a new video,. But If you have not really fought swarms in a dropship watch this overview video of what it is like from and ADS view and why swarms often fail. It is 17 minutes long but shows some of the issues we face. I will, as I said, make a more detailed and specific responce for CCP and post it here too. That way we can talk about facts, not myth. Note the "damage mod active" message is a bug. It sometimes sticks to the swarm after you die fighting a tank with a damage mod on, which happend to me in that battle Fact: Smacking dropships into buildings with your swarms is not a valid tactic because it can only happen in very specific situations, from very specific angles and is very unreliable. Myth: Swarmers don't use tactics because they can just lock-on and look elsewhere. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4366	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:36:00 - [17] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill. Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful. We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship. Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in. Dropships were never meant to be gunships. They are most accepted as highly disposable metal coffins, but something to be considered annoying in the right hands. So here is my take on things. Make Assault Dropships cheaper. Much cheaper. Cheap, disposable glass cannons that move at high speed. Make Standard Dropships beefier on HP. This allows them to be used as makeshift gunships to a degree if gunners are actually used, but they are still slow enough that people can catch them if they linger unlike their assault brother. This results in dropships being highly killable, but cheap enough that pilots are willing to accept that reality.
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1596	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:39:00 - [18] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill. Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful. We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship. Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in. Most dropship's ability to tank damage isn't an issue for me personally since I've had proficiency 5 swarms since Uprising 1.0, but anyone with even slightly less damage output than I do must be going crazy over it. Except for the absolute best of ADS ships, I can keep DPS up on them enough to kill them if they are around long enough. I'm actually thinking you should increase the DS's resistance to rails since rail sniping them out of the air is ridiculously easy (I've been testing out both ADS's this week). As far as swarm balance goes: Regular swarms need to have a beefier hit to them. If these are to be the CQC swarms, they need more damage and more in a clip, perhaps with a slight (SLIGHT!) lock-on and flight range drop to make room for: The assault swarms need to have slightly less damage than current swarms, but with more lock-on and flight range and a much faster missile. ~Swarmer Since Replication PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2172	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:50:00 - [19] - Quote For those talking about lock on range increases. What is your opinion on this segment of the video - Watch from this point until 2:40. Just a 2 minute segment. Judge For CPM 1 youtube Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
Hobo on Fire Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 280	Posted - 2014.06.09 10:02:00 - [20] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Most dropship's ability to tank damage isn't an issue for me personally since I've had proficiency 5 swarms since Uprising 1.0, but anyone with even slightly less damage output than I do must be going crazy over it. Except for the absolute best of ADS ships, I can keep DPS up on them enough to kill them if they are around long enough. I'm actually thinking you should increase the DS's resistance to rails since rail sniping them out of the air is ridiculously easy (I've been testing out both ADS's this week). As far as swarm balance goes: Regular swarms need to have a beefier hit to them. If these are to be the CQC swarms, they need more damage and more in a clip, perhaps with a slight (SLIGHT!) lock-on and flight range drop to make room for: The assault swarms need to have slightly less damage than current swarms, but with more lock-on and flight range and a much faster missile. ~Swarmer Since Replication I'll second a lot of this. I've had swarm prof sitting at 4 for I don't know how long, and I feel like I'm a pretty decent threat to dropships who don't get out of dodge the first time they get hit. That said, Prof 4 and some complex damage mods on a proto AV weapon should be threatening. Lower tier swarm users just don't have the punch to be effective. I think the high end swarms are pretty close to where they should be, and a variant with long range/high speed but lower damage missiles would round out what veteran swarmers need to be useful... but the low end swarm launchers need a little buff. I'm thinking a reduction to the base lock on time (with balanced reduction to the operation lock-on bonus) to give entry level swarms a better DPS, while keeping wiyrkomi users where they are now.

anaboop Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 89	Posted - 2014.06.09 10:11:00 - [21] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill. Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful. We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship. Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in. Locking on targets should raise an alarm for the dropship pilots, not the direction its coming from though, just like a red screen flashing or something simple like that. As for flying away all the time, is it possible to reduce the ds thrust upon taking x amount of damage. Slowing the ds from ascending. Fully sick Anaboop trading card
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 15389	Posted - 2014.06.09 10:13:00 - [22] - Quote duster 35000 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill. Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful. We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship. Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in. Increase cooldown time of afterburner Fixed. If you put it on a python the python is VERY weak, and incubus sacrfices recourses to use it. It's fine tbh. Not everyone uses an ab. I disagree with this; recall would be an issue then . CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Gallente Logistics =// Unlocked
Hobo on Fire Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 280	Posted - 2014.06.09 10:23:00 - [23] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: For those talking about lock on range increases. What is your opinion on this segment of the video - Watch from this point until 2:40. Just a 2 minute segment. As far as this Judge, I have been in favor of some sort of warning indicator for pilots for a long time. Prox mine style beeping, grenade style radial warning indicators something... Buts as vulnerable as pilots are up there, the only way for swarmers to really have a chance against an ADS is if the pilot does something he shouldn't. If you aren't next to a building for me to slam you into, or you don't try to duel me once you realize I'm after you, you'll be gone before I can fire off enough shots to give you real concern. The only way I can get you in that limited time frame is with massed AV, and that should be a serious threat to any vehicle no matter the circumstances. Long range but low damage missiles help with this; it brings the swarms back as a suppressive weapon. I might not be able to kill you, but I can shoo you away from an area and maybe bag some damage points. I don't think we need to go back to the old 400m lock on range, but 250m would provide for nice area denial coverage without blocking you from half the map; lower damage per missile (150? 180?) would mean you could also risk zipping by without too much worry of losing an 800k isk investment, as long as you don't linger. I just hope the rendering issues with the missiles themselves have actually been fixed... I recall theories that the nerf to swarm range was because of that issue specifically.
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 2240	Posted - 2014.06.09 10:26:00 - [24] - Quote 1 more point i forgot before: AV weapons stun lock ADS, so after the first hit, it's more and more feasible to hit the ADS at least another time. There is no point to nerf afterburner imho just buff the lock on range of assault swarm launcher to be 200 meters and a little missile speed. PSN: ogamega I'm not a chef, i'm just a man who likes to cook.
Lorhak Gannarsein Legio DXIV 3432	Posted - 2014.06.09 10:30:00 - [25] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: duster 35000 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill. Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful. We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship. Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in. Increase cooldown time of afterburner Fixed. If you put it on a python the python is VERY weak, and incubus sacrfices recourses to use it. It's fine tbh. Not everyone uses an ab. I disagree with this; recall would be an issue then . People use hardeners with 40-80s cooldowns. I don't think increasing afterburner recharge times is really going to change the amount of recalling that much. BlowoutForCPM
MINA Longstrike 844	Posted - 2014.06.09 10:36:00 - [26] - Quote Please remember that part of the changes to swarms were to stop them from being long range map denial to dropships and prevent them from firing before rendering. I agree mlt swarms should probably be a little stronger, but ultimately swarms should be a 'don't linger' flag, not a 'you're dead before you know what happened' weapon. That was what they were in 1.6 and it was awful for everyone involved. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Skybladev2 LUX AETERNA INT RUST415 116	Posted - 2014.06.09 11:10:00 - [27] - Quote I have no special problems of tanking swarms, but rail tanks and turrets are real pain in the butt. <[^_^]>
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 491	Posted - 2014.06.09 11:35:00 - [28] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Dropships were never meant to be gunships. They are most accepted as highly disposable metal coffins, but something to be considered annoying in the right hands. So here is my take on things. Make Assault Dropships cheaper. Much cheaper. Cheap, disposable glass cannons that move at high speed. Make Standard Dropships beefier on HP. This allows them to be used as makeshift gunships to a degree if gunners are actually used, but they are still slow enough that people can catch them if they linger unlike their assault brother. This results in dropships being highly killable, but cheap enough that pilots are willing to accept that reality. I like this idea. Balance ADS to be like dropsuits! Cheap, disposable. Losing them is annoying but doesn't hurt. And you can extend your lifetime by being a good player, but not indefinitely - At some point you'll meet a sniper or other insta-kill attack from nowhere.
Lanius Pulvis Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn 299	Posted - 2014.06.09 11:57:00 - [29] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill. Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful. We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship. Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in. Judge currently has a video that shows the swarm issue very well, I suggest you take a look at it. Not new, just new to you.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2173	Posted - 2014.06.09 12:18:00 - [30] - Quote There is something being overlooked here. The ability to kill a dropship and how that can be done, and how long it takes is one side of the discussion. The other side we must consider is threat level. How much threat is a dropship. Forget Ambush, it's broken. In Skirmish and Domination does an ADS, which is a full on proto asset pose as much threat as a full on proto infantry player? I have been tracking kills. I posted this data before but I'll mention it here again. In 36 matches where I did not fly but another pilot on our team did, the other ADS never went higher that 6th on the kill chart, getting at best around 15 kills, averaging 7 kills. In all cases Infantry of similar proto level easily out killed the dropship. Please avoid posting examples from each end of the bell curve, they are not representative. My point here is to remember to factor in the threat level when deciding on the measure of the response. CCP perhaps you might take a look at what are considered top pilots. Do a database query of the top 10. Pull all dom and skrimish matches for these players and count the ADS weapon kills per match. Exactly how dangerous are we? Judge For CPM 1 youtube Twitter @Judge_EVELegion

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1543	Posted - 2014.06.09 12:37:00 - [31] - Quote @ Rattati I cannot speak from the pilot's perspective, but this common occurrence I find alarming: I Have * Prototype Swarms (Proficiency V) * 2 Cmp Dmg Amps He Has * Python * Cycled Missile Launcher Nuisance at Best Provided I'm first to engage the bird, my initial clip (3 volleys) is effectively a warning to the pilot. If he happens to remain perfectly still, the remainder of my apply supply will break through his resistances (though probably not enough to crash him). Fight or Flight Should he respond, the simple act of movement spreads my damage out over time and negates my threat. Should he retaliate, he need only fire one or two shots to dispatch me. Rendering Swarmers today have to get pretty close to a bird to establish target-lock. Rendering may have been issue when swarms were long-range weapons, but I find it difficult to lend merit to this claim in the game's present state. That said, if Judge or Nguthurus IX says its still a problem, then its still a problem. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1599	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:12:00 - [32] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: There is something being overlooked here. The ability to kill a dropship and how that can be done, and how long it takes is one side of the discussion. The other side we must consider is threat level. How much threat is a dropship. Forget Ambush, it's broken. In Skirmish and Domination does an ADS, which is a full on proto asset pose as much threat as a full on proto infantry player? I have been tracking kills. I posted this data before but I'll mention it here again. In 36 matches where I did not fly but another pilot on our team did, the other ADS never went higher that 6th on the kill chart, getting at best around 15 kills, averaging 7 kills. In all cases Infantry of similar proto level easily out killed the dropship. Please avoid posting examples from each end of the bell curve, they are not representative. My point here is to remember to factor in the threat level when deciding on the measure of the response. CCP perhaps you might take a look at what are considered top pilots. Do a database query of the top 10. Pull all dom and skrimish matches for these players and count the ADS weapon kills per match. Exactly how dangerous are we? TL;DR: Basically I'm saying you should not be comparing ADS pilots to infantry slayers as that's not who they contend with, you should be comparing them to infantry AV players. Specifically swarmers in this case since this is what we are attempting to balance. We have to basically go off of first hand experience until CCP posts up some numbers. In my personal experience, proper ADS pilots are more effective at helping their team than AV are at helping theirs. A good ADS is a highly mobile gunship that easily softens enemy targets for allied infantry with the capability to OHK about half of the suits in the game. The only real enemy to contend with is the rail tanker and the occasional proto forge gunner, and to be fair there are quite a few rail tankers out there these days. A swarmer is running around the field with one weapon that can only fend off vehicles and has their high slots used up on damage mods to get as much out of their AV weapon as possible. This means they are in a weakened suit with only a sidearm to defend themselves against LAV/logi-repped heavies, cloaked/damped/superscanner RE/shotty scouts and the occasional eHP tanked assault or Logi. That's not even to mention the tanks, DS, ADS and death taxi LAV's that just try to run you over So, in my personal experience, being a solo ADS pilot flying for your team allows you to be a far better asset to your team than being a solo swarmer trying to deal with vehicles for your team. THIS is what needs to be fixed. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Grimmiers 581	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:43:00 - [33] - Quote Ads controls/aiming My biggest issue with assault dropships is the fact that the pitch when aiming in 3rd person will reset to a center point of my dropship if I'm not putting any input to the right analog stick. Even in first person there should be a small deadzone where I can free aim in a small area and my dropship itself will keep the same angle. The aim can reset to center without being a problem if it's not constantly fighting against my aim. Dropship fights/collision Another problem is collision, especially with other dropships that kamikaze you. The ideal situation is to have the kamikaze strategy only work on dropships low on health. A dropship vs. dropship fight usually starts with one player using his guns to take down a target while the other pilot will either run away, or try to ram you. Fixing afterburner cooldowns and collision damage will make the fights more interesting and have less silly outcomes. Also the gallente dropships currently always have a slight roll while in flight making it hard to aim railguns and blasters compared to the caldari ships. The dropship should only be rolling if it's making a hard turn, or trying to barrel roll. Swarms As for swarms, I think this could be where we add more variants. A launcher that shoots 2 faster swarms would be better for dropships, not as good against tanks, and less devastating even if they're invisible at first. Overall it would take longer to empty a clip compared the standard swarms only it would have a better chance at accurately hitting a fast moving target. These could be better suited for lavs too.
Velociraptor antirrhopus Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 164	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:47:00 - [34] - Quote swarms the way they are now are still very much a joke. if you're not going to change them, at least make them into a sidearm that's the best idea i've heard because buffing their damage is either "too complicated" or would affect dropships adversely if you adjusted the damage to hurt tanks, as Judge Rhad has said I have never used Swarms, or skilled into dropships. I am now a full proto Forge Gunner and I kill vehicles ridiculously fast. I think it is unfair to Swarm users that they are nowhere near as powerful. My thoughts on Hotfix Alpha: First I noticed a scout running from my AR. Then a heavy. Then a COMBAT RIFLE USER. CCP +1
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn 3310	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:51:00 - [35] - Quote More damage for swarms wouldn't break the balance when you couple it with the short ranger and low tracking speed. Dropships get close and they get hit hard. Change assault swarms so they have a faster tracking speed, low damage and long range. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 31	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:57:00 - [36] - Quote A problem I have is that I can outrun swarms in a python with no AB. If I had an AB sure, I would be fine with it, but as is, when I see tiny specs of light wink out of existence behind me, I feel like I just cheated someone out of their rightfully deserved kill...I usually try to make it up to them by giving them some more missiles (although I probably shouldn't have armed them first). Standard dropships need an EHP buff though...they can't survive much punishment, and lack the mobility of ADSs to avoid fire, making them a rare sight indeed. (ADSs could use more HP as well, since FG and 80GJ railguns are the big killers...most of which can 1HKO you with a well placed shot)
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1845	Posted - 2014.06.09 14:08:00 - [37] - Quote Just give all swarms faster speeds. Ground vehicles shouldn't be able to just barely outrun or keep up with them. As for dropships, perhaps just buff their base EHP. They are supposed to be medium vehicles after all. Also nerf LAV EHP, as they should be the easiest to kill, not harder than dropships. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Mobius Wyvern Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 5292	Posted - 2014.06.09 14:10:00 - [38] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill. Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful. We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship. Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in. As a pilot, I can confirm that at this point I never see the first volley of Swarms, and am sometimes being hit by the second by the time the missiles and the launcher actually render.
Brotherband REMNANT ENFORCERS 1	Posted - 2014.06.09 14:10:00 - [39] - Quote I think swarms should have two different versions added. One for tanks and one for dropships, the droship swarm will have a high top speed and range with a lower damage count. The tank swarm will have high damage, slower missile speed with reduced range. You could also make so that the tank swarms could only target tanks. Before you comment I would like to say that I have ran both av and ads. The only thing that had ever destroyed my assault dropship is the rail and forge gun. Missile damage output is fine against dropships it's just that the lock on time and range is far too small to do anything against them.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2174	Posted - 2014.06.09 14:23:00 - [40] - Quote The lock range is fine. As I showed in my links 175m is a long way away, it's a third of the map. As i showed a swarm can easily see, lock and hit me at that range while I can't tell you from a rock unless you start shooting. Increasing the lock range will put us back at the intolerable 1.6 situation. Swarms can lock down several objectives from the redline and be so far away they can hit a dropship 6 times before they even render. Changes need to be made. But not to lock range. Rendering is not fixed. And requires clint changes to be fixed. Did you see these? Comparison of what we look like to each other at 85 meters. Example of rendering issue In that second example you can clearly see a swarmer at 50m pop into existence and fire swarms almost as soon as he does. This means he is getting lock on before I can even see him even when I am 50m away. I can only run in these cases. I am facing the wrong way, fighting an enemy who has a massive head start on me that he gained due to unbalanced rendering. Give that guy 250m lock range and I don't have a chance. Judge For CPM 1 youtube Twitter @Judge_EVELegion

Lightning35 Delta514 48TH SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCE 43	Posted - 2014.06.09 14:26:00 - [41] - Quote Increase damage to swarms standard stays 220, adv 250, proto 280 SPAWN.KILL.DIE.RESPAWN.
Velociraptor antirrhopus Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 164	Posted - 2014.06.09 14:26:00 - [42] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: The lock range is fine. but i heard they're talking about making the Assault version have better range but weaker damage it wouldn't affect you much. it'd be like infantry getting shot with a Militia sniper rifle. No one really cares, we just shrug it off. My thoughts on Hotfix Alpha: First I noticed a scout running from my AR. Then a heavy. Then a COMBAT RIFLE USER. CCP +1
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2174	Posted - 2014.06.09 14:32:00 - [43] - Quote Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: The lock range is fine. but i heard they're talking about making the Assault version have better range but weaker damage it wouldn't affect you much. it'd be like infantry getting shot with a Militia sniper rifle. No one really cares, we just shrug it off. The render issue still remains. The knock back will throw us off target. So Long range means an invisible player at another objective or the redline plinking away at me for the whole match. That is what happened before the range reduction. Swarms set up on a hill way back on the map, protected by the redlin or a rail tank; sat on a hive and just spent the entire game shooting at you. If you want to fight me with a lock on weapon, when you are non rendered even at 50m then you should be out in the battle zone taking risks, just like I do. The difference between swarms and snipers is tracking missiles. No skill at all. Stay way at the back with a auto targeting weapon and just hold fire for the full 15 minutes. This is what happend all the time in old builds. It was a mess. You can hide from snipers. In the air there is no cover. Judge For CPM 1 youtube Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1102	Posted - 2014.06.09 14:36:00 - [44] - Quote I'm a long time AV specialist and have been looking for some adjustments to the Swarms vs Vehicles for a while. Several good points brought up by folks and I've got my own thoughts I've been mentioning to folks for a while. 1) Confirm the Swarm dmg vs armor on DS and correct that first (credit to Judge Rhadamanthus). 2) Swarm variants. I saw the comments on perhaps buffing the Assault variant with faster missiles and increased lock on and shave a bit of alpha damage. I would take it a bit of a step further with some possible swarm variants: a) Anti-Air specialist variant. Increased lock range (300 m), increased lock time (roughly 30% increase), significantly increased effectiveness against DS and less against ground vehicles and turrets. b) Anti-tank specialist variant. Decreased lock range to 75m, no change to lock time, ammo clip reduction, significantly increased damage vs ground vehicles / turrets and limited effectiveness vs. DS. 3) Increase all swarm launcher missile flight time by 25%. 4) Not sure how to do this but toning down the "fly around 90 degree corners" aspect. This makes positioning much more critical for the swarmer and coupled with the increased missile speed it's makes a good match for AV vs Vehicle players. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1604	Posted - 2014.06.09 14:39:00 - [45] - Quote My point still stands, you should be comparing an ADS pilot's average scores to swarmers average scores to balance swarms, not an ADS pilot's score to an infantry slayer's scores. You see a 100% swarm runner at the top of the board about as often as you see a unicorn on the moon. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2174	Posted - 2014.06.09 14:40:00 - [46] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: a) Anti-Air specialist variant. Increased lock range (300 m), increased lock time (roughly 30% increase), significantly increased effectiveness against DS and less against ground vehicles and turrets. This would not work. 300m is half the map. More on most. That is the return of redline swarms. It was a disaster before, and would be again. Remember swarms track. No player should have a weapon that tracks its target and can fire that weapon at the objectives from the redline. Judge For CPM 1 youtube Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10241	Posted - 2014.06.09 14:56:00 - [47] - Quote I just think swarm velocity and damage need an increase. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1548	Posted - 2014.06.09 14:59:00 - [48] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: It was a disaster before, and would be again. Before ... 1) We could fire five (5) volleys at you uninterrupted 2) You could not write-off swarms on account of incredible resist / rep Now ... 3) You can resist / rep to near-full-heath while we reload our 3-round clips 4) You can ignore swarms, provided multiple mercs aren't firing them at you simultaneously Exceptions 2) Unless you were a Logistics bird; those were also ridiculously resistant to swarms 4) Unless a lucky swarmer happens to knock you into a structure Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
I-Shayz-I I-----I 3644	Posted - 2014.06.09 15:19:00 - [49] - Quote I want swarms to be viable, but not against dropships. They already have it hard enough trying not to crash into walls or buildings from the knock back effect. However I'd feel that more dropships would be willing to stay an fight if they didn't cost half a million isk a pop for one of the most if not THE most skilled playstyle in the game. I don't use swarms, and the main reason why is that they don't stop shields from regenerating all the time like forge guns or the PLC. While yes they are "fire and forget", they still require a bit of tactics to be viable against ground vehicles. If anything I'd like to see vehicle armor repairers toned down a bit so that they can't just rep swarm damage and ignore it. If you're using swarms, you might not be doing a ton of damage, but it should at least wear the vehicle down enough to make it retreat, not FLAT OUT IGNORE YOU. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 5676	Posted - 2014.06.09 15:33:00 - [50] - Quote With a Minmatar commando, proto swarms vs python is usually a pretty fair trade off. A single swarmer won't kill that python if he isn't dumb but you do enough damage that he needs to run away if he values his ship. If a python hangs out long enough for you to reload he will be dead. Incubus however are a much bigger problem. They will just sit there, tank, and rep through your swarms laughing at you. It takes 2 swarmers just to suppress an incubus like you would a python. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.

Ryme Intrinseca The Rainbow Effect 1330	Posted - 2014.06.09 15:43:00 - [51] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill. Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful. We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship. Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in. This is all nice but there is still a huge issue with armor based dropships. They currently only take 55% damage from swarms. That means when i put only a single basic heavy rep on a armor dropship it becomes literally imune vs. swarm launchers. That needs to be brought in line with shield dropships which take proper damage. Exactly, the issue is not that armour dropships run away from swarms, it's that they don't need to.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 11055	Posted - 2014.06.09 15:45:00 - [52] - Quote I would like ADSes to get a major price cut; they are way to expensive. Thread on the subject https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=142594&find=unread Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
843 Epidemic BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 1404	Posted - 2014.06.09 16:33:00 - [53] - Quote I am a Forge Gunner, and recently I have become interested in ADS piloting. From my experience I have found this: 1) It is very rare that a swarm launcher will kill me, they will certainly harm me however and cause me to retreat if they are persistent enough. More than one player using a swarm launcher acts as a good defence mechanism against ADS, but it isn't so OP of a method that ADS piloting becomes useless, it just means the infantry has to help out. 2) ADSs are incredibly expensive. Even at my standard (Which is all STD/Mlt gear) I am spending roughly 350,000 ISK per ship. Now due to the fact as an ADS pilot the only real points you're getting is kills and destruction you tend to not get huge ISK payouts, so even losing just 1 ship in a battle means you've potentially made a huge loss already, anymore than one ship and it's a guaranteed loss. 3) I have Forge gunned many ADSs and I have been forged in my ADS. I know this thread doesn't mention forges, but they are far, FAR too powerful. I can understand a rail tank possessing that sort of power, and that's alright because a rail tank can be countered (Fly over it where it can't aim, destroy it or force it to retreat) however against a GOOD forge gunner there is nothing you as an ADS pilot can do about it. No ADS can kill me when I'm forging and when I'm in an ADS it's incredibly rare that I'll kill a forge gunner. 1 shot from almost any forge and one has to retreat, another 1-3 shots and you're down. Forge against Tanks is fine, because tanks can escape the fire a little easier using ground cover and they don't get knocked around from 1 hit. So really when I think you look at a proto-swarm fit costing somewhere probably around 120-150,000 (potentially much much cheaper) and then you look at an ADS (Costing upwards of 350,000) a ship, I think it's fair that a swarm's main role is acting as a 'keep-away' in regards to dropships, I think the only time a swarm should be able to destroy a dropship is when the ADS pilot makes a mistake, or when used in collaboration with other AV. As far as changes one thing is for certain (At least from my perspective) reduce the ISK cost of ADSs. It's not right that you can drive around in a 50,000 ISK Tank but an ADS is so expensive AND vulnerable. I don't know what to say about the forge problem, because to me personally I find it too easy to ruin an ADSs day, all I need to do is sit on a tower and forge them. It's cheap and easy for me. Similarly when I'm in an ADS and I don't have trustworthy or able infantry to hunt down enemy AV that's your ADS out the window for the whole match. The only time flying an ADS is viable is when you have a fully competent infantry team that is willing to sacrifice the objectives to kill AV (Which is a bit silly anyway), or the enemy team is wholly incompetent and cannot defend themselves. Bare in mind I'm an ADS Pilot of only about 2 weeks, though the problems I've encountered I believe are real. EDIT: Just to re-iterate: ADSs are ALWAYS able to be killed by infantry AV, if you can't kill an ADS either you're doing it wrong or you're facing Sir Snugglz. Yesterday in a match my squad destroyed 8 incubuses, in ONE match, it was ridiculous. Point being, ADSs aren't hard to kill if you have a capable squad Brb, sister needs the TV
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1610	Posted - 2014.06.09 17:10:00 - [54] - Quote This is my proto-swarm AV fitting. I have 618 eHP and only an SMG to defend myself with. I have to run a cardiac regulator in order to ensure I have the stamina to keep running away from infantry/towards fleeing vehicles and I have to run a reactive plate because every eHP counts in this fit but I still need reps. I run a compact hive because this fitting really doesn't survive long enough to use up anything better in most situations, even if I could fit it. I can only run a single damage module because I need to use every high slot possible to keep me alive. And I run a proto assault SMG on my sidearm because it's the only thing that gives me a chance of taking someone out at a distance before they can run up and shotty/HMG me into oblivion. This fitting runs168,720isk and I typically loose at least one suit while trying to AV any given ADS/tank to either infantry or the vehicle itself. More often than not, to the infantry or a second vehicle that backs up the first vehicle though. Let's say I only loose 1 AV suit for every vehicle I fight on a map and the enemy runs 5 tanks or ADS's. That means in AV fittings alone that match, I lost 843,600isk. More often than not I die on my way back to the supply depot after killing off any vehicle (this is AFTER loosing one initial suit to infantry while AVing), which means that per vehicle I typically loose a total of 337,440isk. THIS is why you rarely see me or another swarmer out there trying anymore, because it's not just the DIFFICULTY of the task at hand, it's almost just as expensive for me to kill an ADS pilot as it is for the ADS pilot to loose his ship. And that's IF I can manage to kill it. If I can't, I spend the entire match loosing AV fit after AV fit trying to dodge infantry in order to get an occasional shot off at it to keep it off my teammates. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Dauth Jenkins Ultramarine Corp Covert Intervention 541	Posted - 2014.06.09 17:25:00 - [55] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: A problem I have is that I can outrun swarms in a python with no AB. If I had an AB sure, I would be fine with it, but as is, when I see tiny specs of light wink out of existence behind me, I feel like I just cheated someone out of their rightfully deserved kill...I usually try to make it up to them by giving them some more missiles (although I probably shouldn't have armed them first). Standard dropships need an EHP buff though...they can't survive much punishment, and lack the mobility of ADSs to avoid fire, making them a rare sight indeed. (ADSs could use more HP as well, since FG and 80GJ railguns are the big killers...most of which can 1HKO you with a well placed shot) Yessss standard dropships need more health. Vipers, and even Myrons are sub par at the moment, easily taken out. It's a high risk low reward play style. Since you are almost guaranteed to get very few points, and get killed at least once. -Sincerely --The Dual Swarm Commando
Hobo on Fire Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 281	Posted - 2014.06.09 17:35:00 - [56] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: The lock range is fine. As I showed in my links 175m is a long way away, it's a third of the map. As i showed a swarm can easily see, lock and hit me at that range while I can't tell you from a rock unless you start shooting. Increasing the lock range will put us back at the intolerable 1.6 situation. Swarms can lock down several objectives from the redline and be so far away they can hit a dropship 6 times before they even render. Changes need to be made. But not to lock range. Rendering is not fixed. And requires clint changes to be fixed. Did you see these? Comparison of what we look like to each other at 85 meters. Example of rendering issue In that second example you can clearly see a swarmer at 50m pop into existence and fire swarms almost as soon as he does. This means he is getting lock on before I can even see him even when I am 50m away. I can only run in these cases. I am facing the wrong way, fighting an enemy who has a massive head start on me that he gained due to unbalanced rendering. Give that guy 250m lock range and I don't have a chance. Pilots fit ABs to run mainly because we suddenly find ourselves flying strait at a forge or swarm player like idiots because as far as we can tell its all clear.. until suddenly a fully charged breach ready to shoot pops into existance that rendering made impossible to see. We effectively go into battle blind half the time. We run because we cannot see who is shooting us, just shots from the void. The problem I have with your argument against lock on range is something you point out yourself in that same video: Swarms can't reliably hit a dropship moving away from them if its more than 70 or 80 meters away. The swarm launcher doesn't create an impenetrable death bubble for 175m in every direction; it doesn't get truly dangerous for the pilot until he's within 100m or so, an area you don't need an AB to get out of quickly. There are a multitude of reasons dropships vs AV is poorly executed right now, and the rendering issues are at the top of the list. The ridiculous price of ADS is up there as well, as is the lack of any kind of warning indicator on vehicles. Unfortunately, the price of your ships might be the only one of those 3 we can hope to see a change to in Dust. Losing an ADS wouldn't be such a hard pill to swallow if the price was in line with HAVs (which are still IMO, too cheap, but that's not a matter for this thread) and cheaper aircraft would only encourage more players to try flying. Since CCP Rattati is reading this thread, I will suggest a possibility for an AV warning indicator that just might be simple enough to work into Dust (or at least function as a base for Legion) The current grenade indicator for infantry tracks specific types of (possibly moving) projectiles that come within a certain distance to the user, and uses a radial indicator to point that player to the direction of danger. You may be able to duplicate that functionality for vehicles, with regards to AV weapons. Swarms are the obvious first projectile; even if your vehicle isn't the one being targeted, it would be beneficial to know that missiles are in the air. It doesn't need to have any complicated "These Missiles Are Tracking You" functionality, just "Missiles Nearby." You could add forge gun and plasma cannon projectiles to the list of objects that would generate the warning indicator, giving the pilots/drivers notice of these weapons being fired in their direction... They would know they are in danger even if they aren't actively being hit.
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14415	Posted - 2014.06.09 17:35:00 - [57] - Quote Dauth Jenkins wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: A problem I have is that I can outrun swarms in a python with no AB. If I had an AB sure, I would be fine with it, but as is, when I see tiny specs of light wink out of existence behind me, I feel like I just cheated someone out of their rightfully deserved kill...I usually try to make it up to them by giving them some more missiles (although I probably shouldn't have armed them first). Standard dropships need an EHP buff though...they can't survive much punishment, and lack the mobility of ADSs to avoid fire, making them a rare sight indeed. (ADSs could use more HP as well, since FG and 80GJ railguns are the big killers...most of which can 1HKO you with a well placed shot) Yessss standard dropships need more health. Vipers, and even Myrons are sub par at the moment, easily taken out. It's a high risk low reward play style. Since you are almost guaranteed to get very few points, and get killed at least once. The big problem here is that any buff to standard / mlt ship health just makes them that much more lethal as practically free suicide ships.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 805	Posted - 2014.06.09 17:42:00 - [58] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: For those talking about lock on range increases. What is your opinion on this segment of the video - Watch from this point until 2:40. Just a 2 minute segment. I think it demonstrates the problem pretty well. You can't see the swarm user until after he fires but once he does he is lit up like a christmas tree. One volley does not do enough damage to seriously threaten you and you are easily able to fly a hundred meters to get out of lock on range if you simply don't want to engage. That choice is entirely in your hands, not the swarmers. What I see in that video is a swarmer that will get killed by a DS and if not, by any infantry within 100 meters. Because, that's why.
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14415	Posted - 2014.06.09 17:43:00 - [59] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I would like ADSes to get a major price cut; they are way to expensive. Thread on the subject https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=142594&find=unread I would also like ADSes to be realistically killable by infantry AV. Id rather raise the price of mlt vehicles and tanks, personally. Forge guns vs ads are really balanced right now, its a very skill vs skill situation and feels really good where its at. Im perfectly fine with swarms moving faster so they can more reliably apply damage, but an afterburner needs to be able to outrun them or else we suddenly have no defense against a lock on weapon other than hugging the flight ceiling. Also, fixing the bug that makes swarm missiles spin around your ship before impacting would be nice
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 805	Posted - 2014.06.09 17:52:00 - [60] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: There is something being overlooked here. The ability to kill a dropship and how that can be done, and how long it takes is one side of the discussion. The other side we must consider is threat level. How much threat is a dropship. Forget Ambush, it's broken. In Skirmish and Domination does an ADS, which is a full on proto asset pose as much threat as a full on proto infantry player? I have been tracking kills. I posted this data before but I'll mention it here again. In 36 matches where I did not fly but another pilot on our team did, the other ADS never went higher that 6th on the kill chart, getting at best around 15 kills, averaging 7 kills. In all cases Infantry of similar proto level easily out killed the dropship. Please avoid posting examples from each end of the bell curve, they are not representative. My point here is to remember to factor in the threat level when deciding on the measure of the response. CCP perhaps you might take a look at what are considered top pilots. Do a database query of the top 10. Pull all dom and skrimish matches for these players and count the ADS weapon kills per match. Exactly how dangerous are we? I agree with this. DS is not like tanks. Skilled pilots give you hell as they should and unskilled ones crash. Forges and dropships are pretty well balanced. What I'd like to see is much cheaper dropships, lower tiers of swarms to get a buff and the 55% changed to 80%, and maybe some change to armor reppers. The problem for IAV and dropships remains tanks and their clearly OP abilities. Because, that's why.

Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 508	Posted - 2014.06.09 18:36:00 - [61] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: My point still stands, you should be comparing an ADS pilot's average scores to swarmers average scores to balance swarms, not an ADS pilot's score to an infantry slayer's scores. You see a 100% swarm runner at the top of the board about as often as you see a unicorn on the moon. I get top 6 with my swarms in ambush everytime I dedicate myself to using them. The only exception, is when scouts dedicate themselves to hunting me down, which is teamwork. 1 Prof 5 swarm round will chase my ads off for about half of minute, just because I know that if I stick around for 3 more seconds and the other volleys hit me, I'm dead. If you really want to kill them, get a friend, or two. Ads' are harassment vehicles, nothing more. The best I've went with my ads is 17-0, the best i've went with my slayer fit 64-3, They are far less effective than a good slayer with boots on the ground (the best I went in pc with my ads was 7-0, not very productive clone killing wise, just soften up all the op heavies for my team to take down), they just have the strategic advantage of being able to rush in, throw a few missiles down, clear the uplinks up high, and gtfo dodge. While using my swarms with Av grenades,a solo tank normally will stand no chance. 1 prof 5 swarm missile will send a dropship running 3 will kill it, same with 1 forge gunner, 3 hits from a DAU (adv fg, with prof 5) kills you, 2 hits from a breach.. If a swarm hits my ads, followed by a forge, guess what, insta death. Same with a rail tank working with an av guy (rails dont need the support, just gotta catch you off guard for a quick 2 shot k0). Two skilled fgs, and you might as well chill out on the other side of the map, cause your going to get popped as soon as you go for a strafe run. You just need to skill into av, if you want to kill vehicles, and find you a battle buddy to coordinate with. With the proposed swarm changes, maybe increase the resistance to fgs/rails a little, so we can't get 2hk0'd, or else we'll never get our **** called in long enough to use it. The incubus on the other hand.... I can fit two heavy reps, complex pg, and an ab, and out tank a single av guy. Which is insane, and is the only problem that I see with ads'. I have about 10mil sp into my python , I have prof 5 swarms, and I have a prof 5 fg. In short, 1 fg can keep 1 ads at bay, 1 swarmer, can keep 1 ads away. 2 of each, or any combination, can kill a python before they even know what hit them. Just takes teamwork. An ads without scans from infantry on the ground, is pretty much flying blind unless they hug the ground, which leads to insta death scenarios Support Assault changes
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 508	Posted - 2014.06.09 19:21:00 - [62] - Quote I like the idea of making swarms a secondary weapon. But it should still be hard to fit with another proto weapon. Gives the av guy better survivability, and lets more be fielded without losing slayers from the field. But then again, isn't that what commando's are for? XD Support Assault changes
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 807	Posted - 2014.06.09 19:30:00 - [63] - Quote My experience causes me to agree with you regarding forges and two AV players, but while I only have prof.2 swarms, they are proto swarms and they can't kill or drive off an ADS alone. They may cause a pilot to leave because they fear a second AVer joining me but I can't recall ever soloing a DS with swarms. Because, that's why.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1553	Posted - 2014.06.09 19:35:00 - [64] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: My experience causes me to agree with you regarding forges and two AV players, but while I only have prof.2 swarms, they are proto swarms and they can't kill or drive off an ADS alone. They may cause a pilot to leave because they fear a second AVer joining me but I can't recall ever soloing a DS with swarms. This is exactly my observation at Proficiency V. If the pilot thinks someone else might shoot at him, he'll back off. Otherwise, he'll ignore me or hunt me down. I cannot solo an Incubus or Python; they rep/resist faster than I can damage them. They know it; I know it. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Will Driver Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 67	Posted - 2014.06.09 19:54:00 - [65] - Quote Minmando proto swarmer, L5 prof.: First, I do believe Dropships should have an escape route via line of sight or altitude. However, swarms now do not do enough damage for 1 kind of dropship in particular - one of the assault kinds can just absorb swarm after swarm and not flinch. With that particular variant, it's swarm 1, 2, 3, reload, 4,5,6, reload, 7 8 9, dead by dropship fire (or infantry). Dropship pilot laughing all the while as in "why do they even bother?" The first swarm acts as flares that tell everyone where the swarmer is, so the rendering point doesn't seem compelling to me. The "transport" type dropship seems vulnerable to the right degree. I'm able to take those down if they don't take evasive maneuvers. Also, any kind of dropship can flay away an infinite number of times, whereas a swarmer will run out of ammo eventually. This is a huge advantage to dropships (especially those that can absorb so many swarms). I'd like to see a change to the "invulnerable" assault dropship - that has to go for balance. Everything else could remain as-is, as far as I'm concerned. Whatever you do, please do NOT split swarms into different types. I've sunk so much SP into a relatively ineffective weapon that, if you split it and therefore made it less effective against certain vehicles (even if it was more effective on others), I would quit running it and probably quit the game for being just completely hopeless against vehicles. GÇ£Creativity is knowing how to hide your sourcesGÇ¥ GÇò Albert Einstein
Gelhad Thremyr Quebec United 309	Posted - 2014.06.09 20:05:00 - [66] - Quote How about a swarm specifically made to knock off balance ds, it will have effects on tanks if you modify the behaviour or lock distance of swarm. If this new anti craft swarm does not make that much damage but destabilize the ds, he will have to be good at staying up and skill will decide if he stays in the air or knock off structures. On the point of collisions, the python is ridiculously paper thin when it comes to collisions, even at grand pa speed, this needs to be adressed !
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1000	Posted - 2014.06.09 20:07:00 - [67] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill. Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful. We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship. Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in. To start of with, Python is a glass cannon, it is absolutely crap against swarms and easily killed by most methods of AV (except for like AV nades and Plasma cannon). It's annoying having to run away from a militia swarm launcher in my Proto fitted DS. Also Swarms can almost Knock DS's out of the air or into buildings instantly killing shield dropships. Landing with python has to be like landing at feather speed. Accidentally just touching the ground takes away hundreds of shields if not all. The gravitational effect is also very annoying. Accidentally touch something with the back of my DS and the gravitational effect forces my front to plunge into the ground. BUFF PYTHON, BUFF SHIELDS, NERF SWARM EFFECTIVENESS TOWARDS SHIELDS. It's easier to survive swarms in an incubus than it is in a python.
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1000	Posted - 2014.06.09 20:10:00 - [68] - Quote Will Driver wrote: Minmando proto swarmer, L5 prof.: First, I do believe Dropships should have an escape route via line of sight or altitude. However, swarms now do not do enough damage for 1 kind of dropship in particular - one of the assault kinds can just absorb swarm after swarm and not flinch. With that particular variant, it's swarm 1, 2, 3, reload, 4,5,6, reload, 7 8 9, dead by dropship fire (or infantry). Dropship pilot laughing all the while as in "why do they even bother?" The first swarm acts as flares that tell everyone where the swarmer is, so the rendering point doesn't seem compelling to me. The "transport" type dropship seems vulnerable to the right degree. I'm able to take those down if they don't take evasive maneuvers. Also, any kind of dropship can flay away an infinite number of times, whereas a swarmer will run out of ammo eventually. This is a huge advantage to dropships (especially those that can absorb so many swarms). I'd like to see a change to the "invulnerable" assault dropship - that has to go for balance. Everything else could remain as-is, as far as I'm concerned. Whatever you do, please do NOT split swarms into different types. I've sunk so much SP into a relatively ineffective weapon that, if you split it and therefore made it less effective against certain vehicles (even if it was more effective on others), I would quit running it and probably quit the game for being just completely hopeless against vehicles. When you talk about ADS, you forgot that a python has to run after two volleys of militia swarms because they bring down shields to almost 30%
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 508	Posted - 2014.06.09 20:15:00 - [69] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Will Driver wrote: Minmando proto swarmer, L5 prof.: First, I do believe Dropships should have an escape route via line of sight or altitude. However, swarms now do not do enough damage for 1 kind of dropship in particular - one of the assault kinds can just absorb swarm after swarm and not flinch. With that particular variant, it's swarm 1, 2, 3, reload, 4,5,6, reload, 7 8 9, dead by dropship fire (or infantry). Dropship pilot laughing all the while as in "why do they even bother?" The first swarm acts as flares that tell everyone where the swarmer is, so the rendering point doesn't seem compelling to me. The "transport" type dropship seems vulnerable to the right degree. I'm able to take those down if they don't take evasive maneuvers. Also, any kind of dropship can flay away an infinite number of times, whereas a swarmer will run out of ammo eventually. This is a huge advantage to dropships (especially those that can absorb so many swarms). I'd like to see a change to the "invulnerable" assault dropship - that has to go for balance. Everything else could remain as-is, as far as I'm concerned. Whatever you do, please do NOT split swarms into different types. I've sunk so much SP into a relatively ineffective weapon that, if you split it and therefore made it less effective against certain vehicles (even if it was more effective on others), I would quit running it and probably quit the game for being just completely hopeless against vehicles. When you talk about ADS, you forgot that a python has to run after two volleys of militia swarms because they bring down shields to almost 30% You should be saying, "that incubus just out tanks my av dps, why bother with it when i can 3 hit that python" Support Assault changes
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1000	Posted - 2014.06.09 20:15:00 - [70] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: Pythons are fine vs av. I have a pro fit, and 1 good swarmer can chase me off with a 1 round hitting me, and running from the other 1-2 rnds he got off, even if they only chase me off for a limited amount of time. They are where they need to be. Forges, already 2 hit-3 hit my python. And if there is 1 good forger, I can kiss bombing runs good bye. I also have a prof 5 swarm launcher, and after 1 rnd hits them, they high-tail it out of there, (of course i have 2 other rounds immediately fired as well, and, if all 3 do hit, they die, unless they have a shield booster they hit at just the right moment.. But bottom line is, they are counter-able, 1 person can chase them off easily, Even if it's only for a limited amount of time. You just need to invest the sp, and stop crying about it. Now my incubus on the other hand, I can put 2 basic heavy reps on that sucker, and tank 1 normal swarm guy all day long. Forges, if they're more than 1 of them, or a swarm launcher with a fg helping, can turn me away quickly. And while using my swarm launcher, i can launch a volley of 3 shots, and by the time i've reloaded, generally they're back to full health, glaring at me, I can almost hear them asking, why for you shoot me? (same with the repper maddies) I normally die after my first volley . :) Maybe this leads back to the stacked armor repairs being op by being able to tank av, or people not willing to spec fully into an av weapon, and use teamwork to counter something. I go for the latter. When there is a match with good av guys on the field, who know what they're doing, my dropships/tanks get downed pretty instantly. Python needs buff toward resistance toward AV. Swarms are too effective toward a python. All they have to do is lock on and shoot while a to Fly python requires 50x the skill.

Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1000	Posted - 2014.06.09 20:16:00 - [71] - Quote ChribbaX wrote: One major thing I've noticed is the lock range being a problem, not just that it's short, but it's said to be 200m, I've had dropships and tanks at 165m and still unable to lock them. Many times this is when I am high up and the target closer to the ground. IF you lock on to me at 150m and shoot, the missiles will follow me for at least 400m unless I use loopty loop.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 508	Posted - 2014.06.09 20:17:00 - [72] - Quote also, how do you keep running out of ammo so quickly? On both my scout swarm fit, and my gallmando swarm fit, i am able to fit allotek hives.... Support Assault changes
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1000	Posted - 2014.06.09 20:18:00 - [73] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Will Driver wrote: Minmando proto swarmer, L5 prof.: First, I do believe Dropships should have an escape route via line of sight or altitude. However, swarms now do not do enough damage for 1 kind of dropship in particular - one of the assault kinds can just absorb swarm after swarm and not flinch. With that particular variant, it's swarm 1, 2, 3, reload, 4,5,6, reload, 7 8 9, dead by dropship fire (or infantry). Dropship pilot laughing all the while as in "why do they even bother?" The first swarm acts as flares that tell everyone where the swarmer is, so the rendering point doesn't seem compelling to me. The "transport" type dropship seems vulnerable to the right degree. I'm able to take those down if they don't take evasive maneuvers. Also, any kind of dropship can flay away an infinite number of times, whereas a swarmer will run out of ammo eventually. This is a huge advantage to dropships (especially those that can absorb so many swarms). I'd like to see a change to the "invulnerable" assault dropship - that has to go for balance. Everything else could remain as-is, as far as I'm concerned. Whatever you do, please do NOT split swarms into different types. I've sunk so much SP into a relatively ineffective weapon that, if you split it and therefore made it less effective against certain vehicles (even if it was more effective on others), I would quit running it and probably quit the game for being just completely hopeless against vehicles. When you talk about ADS, you forgot that a python has to run after two volleys of militia swarms because they bring down shields to almost 30% You should be saying, "that incubus just out tanks my av dps, why bother with it when i can 3 hit that python" what???!!?!
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1102	Posted - 2014.06.09 20:31:00 - [74] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: a) Anti-Air specialist variant. Increased lock range (300 m), increased lock time (roughly 30% increase), significantly increased effectiveness against DS and less against ground vehicles and turrets. This would not work. 300m is half the map. More on most. That is the return of redline swarms. It was a disaster before, and would be again. Remember swarms track. No player should have a weapon that tracks its target and can fire that weapon at the objectives from the redline. Fair point. You'll also note that I think the tracking needs to be toned down; in fact, if I had my way i would have you keep the target in the reticule brackets to gain max (or possibly any tracking). That's where the moderately increased missile speed would come in. I would say that no matter the case If you don't increase the lock range then the missile flight speed clearly needs to be increased by a serious margin. Quick side note...I have and more than one dropship directly over top of me just outside the vertical lock bubble raining death down so there you can create safe zones for pilots via altitude, it's not just about parallel distances. My basic concern is that the DS is the single most difficult entity to deal with on the battlefield. There are limited tools available to the Devs to bring some parity to the fight and I appreciate their effort with this. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 509	Posted - 2014.06.09 21:04:00 - [75] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Will Driver wrote: Minmando proto swarmer, L5 prof.: First, I do believe Dropships should have an escape route via line of sight or altitude. However, swarms now do not do enough damage for 1 kind of dropship in particular - one of the assault kinds can just absorb swarm after swarm and not flinch. With that particular variant, it's swarm 1, 2, 3, reload, 4,5,6, reload, 7 8 9, dead by dropship fire (or infantry). Dropship pilot laughing all the while as in "why do they even bother?" The first swarm acts as flares that tell everyone where the swarmer is, so the rendering point doesn't seem compelling to me. The "transport" type dropship seems vulnerable to the right degree. I'm able to take those down if they don't take evasive maneuvers. Also, any kind of dropship can flay away an infinite number of times, whereas a swarmer will run out of ammo eventually. This is a huge advantage to dropships (especially those that can absorb so many swarms). I'd like to see a change to the "invulnerable" assault dropship - that has to go for balance. Everything else could remain as-is, as far as I'm concerned. Whatever you do, please do NOT split swarms into different types. I've sunk so much SP into a relatively ineffective weapon that, if you split it and therefore made it less effective against certain vehicles (even if it was more effective on others), I would quit running it and probably quit the game for being just completely hopeless against vehicles. When you talk about ADS, you forgot that a python has to run after two volleys of militia swarms because they bring down shields to almost 30% You should be saying, "that incubus just out tanks my av dps, why bother with it when i can 3 hit that python" what???!!?! I was quoting the other guy, just via your post, sorry for the confusion ^.^ Support Assault changes
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1554	Posted - 2014.06.09 21:33:00 - [76] - Quote @ Sir Dukey Fascinating perspectives. Would you mind detailing for us (1) how you fit your Python and (2) which skills you've invested in? Why do you suspect your observations differ so starkly with those of every AVer in this thread? Thank you. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1001	Posted - 2014.06.09 23:00:00 - [77] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Sir Dukey Fascinating perspectives. Would you mind detailing for us (1) how you fit your Python and (2) which pertinent skills you've invested in? Why do you suspect your observations differ so starkly with those of every AVer in this thread? Thank you. To start off with, only about 10% of the population fly's maxed ADS's. 2% of them which use Pythons and are successful. Approximately 2900 shields My python consists of a small adv booster, complex heavy extender, and basic afterburner with a proto missile.. Python level 5 The booster is quite a waste, it constantly fails over and over again Swarms require no skill.. You lock and shoot, from over 80m away (swarmer is invible to dropship from over 80 meters away). Also, while an incubus can take unlimited volleys of militia swarms and not budge, the python has to run away with max two swarms. I would also like to say the shield collision damage is through the roof. Landing takes away 400 shield minimum, accidentally bumping a wall just a tad takes off over 1000s of shield and swarms throw pythons around like tennis balls. The heavier incubus is resistant to collision, has more EHP, better repair, doesn't turn upside down due to one volley of swarm. Obviously Incubus is the best ADS just like Madrugar is the best tank. Python is worth 500k isk, over 500 hours of flight time, millions of SP and is killed by militia swamars knocking it into a building uncontrollably. Swarms also are more effective at killing shield vehicles than Armor mostly because Shield regen is stupid. A mass driver round can stop regen. A swarm hitting my python can turn my booster into a fuse. Blah Blah Blah... Av always wins. I don't even know why I argue anymore. Shields suck... They will continue to suck as long as CCP constantly nerfs Armor tanks and Shield tanks simultaneously or Buffs av just for the sole purpose that Armor vehicles are harder to kill.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1573	Posted - 2014.06.10 02:28:00 - [78] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: "Python needs buff toward resistance toward AV." "Swarms are too effective toward a python." "The python has to run away with max two swarms." @ Sir Dukey Here's the part where I hope you're proto trolling. If you are not, then we're going to have to agree to disagree. If you are, then 9/10 ... I salute you. o7 Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Gelhad Thremyr Quebec United 309	Posted - 2014.06.10 02:36:00 - [79] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Sir Dukey Fascinating perspectives. Would you mind detailing for us (1) how you fit your Python and (2) which pertinent skills you've invested in? Why do you suspect your observations differ so starkly with those of every AVer in this thread? Thank you. I run incubus with regrets cause pythons are made of paper and air i have almost all skills at 3 and the incubus with armor reps tank far more than the equivalent pyton. Also the python goes flaming when you hit anything, the incubus can stomp on the ground laughing. The manoeuvrability of the python is greater, but its two rail turrets shots and down... Always ! With anger... And lots of isks lost that i dare say !
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1574	Posted - 2014.06.10 03:28:00 - [80] - Quote @ Judge You've said "Swarms need work" but you've yet to specify what work you'd find agreeable. If you were calling the shots ... 1) How would you buff Swarms? 2) What changes -- if any -- would you make to Python / Incubus? Thank you. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley

bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 242	Posted - 2014.06.10 05:04:00 - [81] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: This is my proto-swarm AV fitting. I have 618 eHP and only an SMG to defend myself with. I have to run a cardiac regulator in order to ensure I have the stamina to keep running away from infantry/towards fleeing vehicles and I have to run a reactive plate because every eHP counts in this fit but I still need reps. I run a compact hive because this fitting really doesn't survive long enough to use up anything better in most situations, even if I could fit it. I can only run a single damage module because I need to use every high slot possible to keep me alive. And I run a proto assault SMG on my sidearm because it's the only thing that gives me a chance of taking someone out at a distance before they can run up and shotty/HMG me into oblivion. This fitting runs168,720isk and I typically loose at least one suit while trying to AV any given ADS/tank to either infantry or the vehicle itself. More often than not, to the infantry or a second vehicle that backs up the first vehicle though. Let's say I only loose 1 AV suit for every vehicle I fight on a map and the enemy runs 5 tanks or ADS's. That means in AV fittings alone that match, I lost 843,600isk. More often than not I die on my way back to the supply depot after killing off any vehicle (this is AFTER loosing one initial suit to infantry while AVing), which means that per vehicle I typically loose a total of 337,440isk. THIS is why you rarely see me or another swarmer out there trying anymore, because it's not just the DIFFICULTY of the task at hand, it's almost just as expensive for me to kill an ADS pilot as it is for the ADS pilot to loose his ship. And that's IF I can manage to kill it. If I can't, I spend the entire match loosing AV fit after AV fit trying to dodge infantry in order to get an occasional shot off at it to keep it off my teammates. THIS^ is why I shoehorn a proto swarm into a Militia Gallente Scout suit. It's squishy, but it's (relatively) cheap to die in (after the swarm flares alert every infantry in the vicinity where I am). Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1 Appia Vibbia for CPM1
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 242	Posted - 2014.06.10 05:29:00 - [82] - Quote Swarm Launchers 1) Buff lock range to 200m 2) Make lock-speed range dependent - closer is faster, farther takes longer (balances #1) 3) Make missiles 10% faster 4) Makes missiles 10% smarter (less molehill and building impacts) NO change to missile travel range NO change to missile damage ADSs (& HAVs) a) Nerf vehicle resistance, reppers & hardeners b) Reduce cost of top level vehicles 10% c) Increase price of military level vehicles 20% Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1 Appia Vibbia for CPM1
Gelhad Thremyr Quebec United 309	Posted - 2014.06.10 06:11:00 - [83] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Swarm Launchers 1) Buff lock range to 200m 2) Make lock-speed range dependent - closer is faster, farther takes longer (balances #1) 3) Make missiles 10% faster 4) Makes missiles 10% smarter (less molehill and building impacts) NO change to missile travel range NO change to missile damage ADSs (& HAVs) a) Nerf vehicle resistance, reppers & hardeners b) Reduce cost of top level vehicles 10% c) Increase price of military level vehicles 20% I like it when people that dont spend money on flying dropships want them to be costier, if you raise effectiveness of av against dropship their cost should be lower, they will crah more often. Also my minmatar proto with swarm cost a quarter of a well equipped python. I can single handedly kill them
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2181	Posted - 2014.06.10 08:48:00 - [84] - Quote We seem to be limiting our thoughts to too small an area. Vehicle balance has a major problem. One that might not even be surmountable. The variables we have to tweak are limited. Perhaps too limited to actualy reach a suitable balance without client updates that are not coming. Perhaps there are other ways to adjust swarms outside of speed, range and damage. I am just throwing stuff out here, these are not well thought out or even practical, there purpose is to inspire lateral thinking (trying to work within the no client update restriction): 1) Special swarms that also do damage to the pilot 2) Missiles that do more damage the slower a dropship is going. Say double damage it it is hovering, half damage when it is at full speed. Then you could remove the afterburner completely 3) Low damage but high impact physics swarms 4) Change the after burner to not change speed but make its heat throw swarms off so they miss (increase cool down too) 5) Link damage to altitude and remove the afterburner. Low altitude = high damage. 6) Remove the afterburner but increase dropship HP 7) increase swarm damage if a dropship has its afterburner active. Theres are just ideas to get you considering other options. Judge For CPM 1 youtube Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
843 Epidemic BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 1409	Posted - 2014.06.10 09:13:00 - [85] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Swarm Launchers 1) Buff lock range to 200m 2) Make lock-speed range dependent - closer is faster, farther takes longer (balances #1) 3) Make missiles 10% faster 4) Makes missiles 10% smarter (less molehill and building impacts) NO change to missile travel range NO change to missile damage ADSs (& HAVs) a) Nerf vehicle resistance, reppers & hardeners b) Reduce cost of top level vehicles 10% c) Increase price of military level vehicles 20% Do you have any idea how hard it is to be an ADS pilot? Brb, sister needs the TV
medomai grey WarRavens Final Resolution. 802	Posted - 2014.06.10 09:59:00 - [86] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill. Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful. We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship. Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in. (For the record, I only fly pythons. Don't know about incubus. As such, ADS opinion below only applies to pythons.) You can't simply improve swarm launcher flight speed without reducing tracking ability. Swarm launchers are only deficient in their lower tier damage. They have a flight speed that can only be outrun by using after burners and a tracking ability that makes them virtually impossible to shake. Increasing swarm launcher flight speed to the point that It could outrun a dropship with afterburners active without drastically reducing tracking ability will result in a swarm launcher that is impossible to evade. If your goal is to create a swarm launcher that can chase dropships away, you already have it. Higher tier swarm launchers deal sufficient damage to force me to run away. Lower tier swarm launchers do a negligible amount of damage were it is easy to track them down and kill them, and it shouldn't be that way. Lower tier swarm launchers need to be a threat to my ADS. Killing an ADS can be tricky because most pilots will run away when things get to hot because pythons are squishy. Judge Radamanthus made this video on this topic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxwLQAFLbJM&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ Medium frame EHP is not medium
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1633	Posted - 2014.06.10 10:47:00 - [87] - Quote medomai grey wrote: (For the record, I only fly pythons. Don't know about incubus. As such, ADS opinion below only applies to pythons.) You can't simply improve swarm launcher flight speed without reducing tracking ability. Swarm launchers are only deficient in their lower tier damage. They have a flight speed that can only be outrun by using after burners and a tracking ability that makes them virtually impossible to shake. Either you have no idea how to hold down the L1 button and give your ship a 45 degree tilt to reach max speed, or you are lying through your teeth intentionally. I have a Python too, and with only basic modules. I can outrun swarms as long as I see them launched and there is a suitable distance between us for me to get a full tilt going for a second or two, no afterburner needed. Quit trying to exaggerate the situation. No point in even reading the rest of your post since your premise is a sham from the start. Either quit exaggerating or L2ADS, whichever suits your current situation. Also, the whole idea of swarms is for them to be smart missiles. They would't make good smart missiles if they didn't track you at least moderately well. For a faster VARIANT of swarms with a longer range (50-75m ish), loosing a chunk off the tracking ability of the missiles would be fine. Allowing a good pilot to outmaneuver missiles would not only make the longer range more balanced, it would add flavor to AV v Vehicle play. But current swarms (with perhaps 50ish meters less range than current swarms but with more damage) need their tracking to remain in order to deal with LAV's and CQC dropships/tanks. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 739	Posted - 2014.06.10 11:26:00 - [88] - Quote duster 35000 wrote: The-Errorist wrote: Afterburners should follow the same format as other vehicle modules: high cooldown times at standard and faster cooldown times at higher tiers. Afterburner modules have a crazy low 10s cooldown at standard which can be abused to attack, retreat, and re-attack without much delay. Afterburners at standard need to have a base cooldown of around 45s at standard and no less than 25s at prototype. For swarms, there's an huge gap in performance between standard and prototype and which makes standard and advanced swarms not very useful. Another issue is how effective rep tanking incubi are; they can outrep the damage output of swarms easily, fly away with afterburners when there's too much AV, comeback after repping all the damage away in under 10s, and continue attacking. Here are some stats (will make a spreadsheet with lots more information) [Incubus A] ADV AT-1 missile launcher STD Afterburner STD Heavy armor repairer 2 PRO Light armor repairer Armor repair per second: 337.5 HP/s [Incubus B] PRO XT-1 missile launcher STD Afterburner ADV Heavy armor repairer 2 PRO Light armor repairer Amor repair per second: 311.5 HP/s An Ishukone assault forgegun with max out stats can deal a DPS of 515.6 when you factor in reloading and charge time, but because of the high alpha damage it would take around 6.75s with 3 shots to kill a rep tanked incubus if all the shots hit when you take into account its repair rate. Basically vehicle armor reps are too effective (way better than shield regen also), they need a nerf and or a stacking penalty. No Just no Those are crap fittings and the incubus needs more pg to fit a basic or adv heavy rep, complex hard and basic plate. Those fittings are only possible if you have max fitting optimization and those fits are just to show what is possible. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
Smoky Fingers Red Star. EoN. 400	Posted - 2014.06.10 11:28:00 - [89] - Quote Swarms... Increase range Reduce tracking value from 100 to 99 Introduce deadzone and missile turning radius R.I.P. CPM Nova Knife
medomai grey WarRavens Final Resolution. 802	Posted - 2014.06.10 11:49:00 - [90] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Either you have no idea how to hold down the L1 button and give your ship a 45 degree tilt to reach max speed, or you are lying through your teeth intentionally. I have a Python too, and with only basic modules. I can outrun swarms as long as I see them launched and there is a suitable distance between us for me to get a full tilt going for a second or two, no afterburner needed. Quit trying to exaggerate the situation. No point in even reading the rest of your post since your premise is a sham from the start. Either quit exaggerating or L2ADS, whichever suits your current situation. Also, the whole idea of swarms is for them to be smart missiles. They would't make good smart missiles if they didn't track you at least moderately well. For a faster VARIANT of swarms with a longer range (50-75m ish), loosing a chunk off the tracking ability of the missiles would be fine. Allowing a good pilot to outmaneuver missiles would not only make the longer range more balanced, it would add flavor to AV v Vehicle play. But current swarms (with perhaps 50ish meters less range than current swarms but with more damage) need their tracking to remain in order to deal with LAV's and CQC dropships/tanks. There is a difference between lying and being factually wrong, the difference being belief. To go straight to accusations of lying and calling someone a noob is pretty damn offensive. You may be right in me over exaggerating the mechanics. I'm going to have to do some testing. In the mean time, put a muzzle on your anger, relax, have a nice cup of tea. There was nothing in my post that should have warranted that much hate. I'm not demanding that swarms should have shoddy tracking ability. The current swarms have extremely good tracking ability; being able to do 180 degree turns, following you behind cover, etc. So when I said "drastically reduce their tracking ability", I meant reduce it so that it tracks ok. Although I do understand how that could be misinterpreted and that's my fault for not being clear enough. I am not proposing that swarm tracking ability be reduced across the board; only those that have their flight speed increased. I'm glad that you at least agree with the conclusion from my "sham" premise. Medium frame EHP is not medium


CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8022	Posted - 2014.06.10 12:12:00 - [91] - Quote Alright, so I'm going to put some of my early thoughts here. None of this is final and is highly dependent on your feedback * Reduce ADS price to 250,000 ISK * Swarms to 150m, Assault Swarms to 200m * Buff base dropship health a little (not ADS) * Increase swarm reserve ammo * Reduce physical impulse on Assault Swarms * Slight increase to physical impulse on Swarms * Increase Assault Swarm speed, reduce tracking and flight time. Total range will still be slightly higher. Max Rotation rate is currently 90 degrees, will try 60 first. * Increase Standard Dropship speed (140 -> 160) * Increase missiles to 6/7/8, reduce damage to compensate (165) to close gap between standard, advanced and prototype. * Reduce Assault Swarm damage (looking at 10% initially) Vehicle Armour Repairers need a big hit with a nerf bat, so I'll also look at those. However they are a much wider issue, so that might take some more time. The resistance profiles for swarms also seem a bit strange, so I'll dig into those as well. I saw someone mention afterburners increasing damage taken as a thought, and from what I can see that might be possible, but that's going into mad science territory at this stage and I haven't given it much thought yet. Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target? CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)

Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2405	Posted - 2014.06.10 12:29:00 - [92] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target? I think the common refrain on SL is the pilot's sense of how they can react. I tend to think that vehicle drivers are over sensitive, and I don't want to make a number of new penalties for vehicles all at once, but I think I like where this is going. It would require you to take an more effective gun off the field in order to reduce the speed of a target. To really get the full effect, you'd need coordinated AV. What I don't know from the infantry effect is how long a speed penalty like this would last. The secondary thing to think of in terms of pilots' sensitivity is, "How would a pilot really know that they are being attacked by this kind of weapon?" If all of a sudden they lose acceleration/agility/speed, then would that just feel more like a glitch than a game effect?
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2405	Posted - 2014.06.10 12:33:00 - [93] - Quote What might be an interesting concept for Legion would be the idea of deployable weapon packs that let you put something down, like a swarm launcher, that you can then swap out from your main weapon. I think part of the issue with these kinds of weapons is how much of a penalty of not having a regular light weapon is.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1590	Posted - 2014.06.10 12:44:00 - [94] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: We seem to be limiting our thoughts to too small an area. Vehicle balance has a major problem. One that might not even be surmountable. The variables we have to tweak are limited. Perhaps too limited to actualy reach a suitable balance without client updates that are not coming. Perhaps there are other ways to adjust swarms outside of speed, range and damage. I am just throwing stuff out here, these are not well thought out or even practical, there purpose is to inspire lateral thinking (trying to work within the no client update restriction): ~~1) Special swarms that also do damage to the pilot~~ ~~2) Missiles that do more damage the slower a dropship is going. Say double damage it it is hovering, half damage when it is at full speed. Then you could remove the afterburner completely~~ 3) Low damage but high impact physics swarms ~~4) Change the after burner to not change speed but make its heat throw swarms off so they miss (increase cool down too)~~ ~~5) Link damage to altitude and remove the afterburner. Low altitude = high damage.~~ 6) Remove the afterburner but increase dropship HP ~~7) increase swarm damage if a dropship has its afterburner active.~~ Theres are just ideas to get you considering other options. The idea for example with 2 and 5 is to stop dropships just hanging there raining unfair death. If I do that I take a great risk of getting hit with 440 hp damage swarms. But if I am moving, say flying to drop off troops, like dropships should, then I take far less damage, say 100 per missile. So swarmers can time their attacks for when the dropship reaches it's destination. At the point when we are a threat to the team; rather than just blasting away from long range the whole match. Both players have to be more strategic. We can remove the afterburner, buff swarm damage. Over to you...... Judge, each "conditional" above would require a client side update; non-options. FTFY Idea: Increase physical impact to current swarms; hold all else constant; see what happens. Thoughts? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
danie braz Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 47	Posted - 2014.06.10 12:48:00 - [95] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target? Slows tanks yes. On derpships id rather have them have a knockback effect. Fluoride uranium carbon potassium bismuth technetium helium sulfur germanium thulium Molybdenum neon yttrium
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1590	Posted - 2014.06.10 12:59:00 - [96] - Quote @ Logibro All of that looks good. If something ends up too weak/strong, we can tweak it after-the-fact in a hurry, right? @ Mad Science \o/ webifier! Would be very cool if possible. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Grimmiers 585	Posted - 2014.06.10 13:00:00 - [97] - Quote I always thought flare countermeasure modules would be fun in dust, but we're stuck with client side stuff. As for rattati's list, that price reduction sounds good and the standard dropship buffs need to happen as well. The lower swarm damage with more missiles is also nice you just need to make sure that the resistances aren't completely negating missile's damage. The whole shield regen system could use some looking at. I remember back in closed beta we used to squad up and fire laser rifles at a shield tank which was very effective, but not op since the damage would stop when you got to armor. Shield regen needs to add the collective damage it has taken within 1 or 2 seconds and recognize that as large arms fire. That way 8 swarms doing 30 damage a piece won't all be repair as soon as they hit. This might also make hmg's more effective av weapons without a damage buff. I guess a possible way you could fix shield regen is to scale the regen rate with the damage taken without making it longer than max delay. If you can get laser rifles and hmg's doubling as av weapons you would help swarms as well.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 11075	Posted - 2014.06.10 13:29:00 - [98] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so I'm going to put some of my early thoughts here. None of this is final and is highly dependent on your feedback * Reduce ADS price to 250,000 ISK * Swarms to 150m, Assault Swarms to 200m * Buff base dropship health a little (not ADS) * Increase swarm reserve ammo * Reduce physical impulse on Assault Swarms * Slight increase to physical impulse on Swarms * Increase Assault Swarm speed, reduce tracking and flight time. Total range will still be slightly higher. Max Rotation rate is currently 90 degrees, will try 60 first. * Increase Standard Dropship speed (140 -> 160) * Increase missiles to 6/7/8, reduce damage to compensate (165) to close gap between standard, advanced and prototype. * Reduce Assault Swarm damage (looking at 10% initially) Vehicle Armour Repairers need a big hit with a nerf bat, so I'll also look at those. However they are a much wider issue, so that might take some more time. The resistance profiles for swarms also seem a bit strange, so I'll dig into those as well. I saw someone mention afterburners increasing damage taken as a thought, and from what I can see that might be possible, but that's going into mad science territory at this stage and I haven't given it much thought yet. Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target? Yes to mad science swarms slowing down targets! Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9291	Posted - 2014.06.10 13:35:00 - [99] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: BUFF PYTHON, BUFF SHIELDS, NERF SWARM EFFECTIVENESS TOWARDS SHIELDS. It's easier to survive swarms in an incubus than it is in a python. The Swarm Launcher is an Explosive weapon, which is extremely ineffective towards Shields, especially when compared to the Forge Gun. As you said, the Python is a Glass Cannon, use that to your advantage. Sure, the Swarmer can make quick work of you if he has the opportunity, but you can do the same thing to the Swarmer as well. Unless your putting a Swarm on a Sentinel (in which case, your a scrub); a Python can 1-3HK the Swarmer, while the Swarmer can 4-6HK a Python. To reiterate, Swarm vs Python is basically Glass Cannon vs Glass Cannon. You both have the power to make quick work of each other, so to claim victory over the other you both need to use that to your advantage. As for your statement about how it's easier to survive Swarms with an Incubus than with a Python, that is due to innate 45% resistance that's still on the Incubus, which needs to be addressed as well. Here's a tip, If you find yourself being hit by a Swarmer, bolt to the flight cieling, and then fly directly below him, then fire at him. Chances are s/he'll be checking her/his sides for the Python as opposed to completely above them. Finally, NO. You may not have a buff to the Python. Not only is it highly unnecessary (from my experience), it would break other forms of AV engagement against the Python. Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical. -HAND
danie braz Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 47	Posted - 2014.06.10 13:40:00 - [100] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship. Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in. is there a way to add a lock warning system for swarms? For the infantry side how about lowering the cost of a scanner. Changing the values of them respective to their tiers would be an option. Lower the cost and lower the effectiveness. A basic would scan non-dampened heavies (forge gunners) for example. Having a passive bonus to them would generate infinite dropship scanners. Flares would be bad ass by the way. Get that on for legion and jet vs jet warfare. Fluoride uranium carbon potassium bismuth technetium helium sulfur germanium thulium Molybdenum neon yttrium

bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 245	Posted - 2014.06.10 14:04:00 - [101] - Quote 843 Epidemic wrote: bogeyman m wrote: Swarm Launchers 1) Buff lock range to 200m 2) Make lock-speed range dependent - closer is faster, farther takes longer (balances #1) 3) Make missiles 10% faster 4) Makes missiles 10% smarter (less molehill and building impacts) NO change to missile travel range NO change to missile damage ADSs (& HAVs) a) Nerf vehicle resistance, reppers & hardeners b) Reduce cost of top level vehicles 10% c) Increase price of military level vehicles 20% Do you have any idea how hard it is to be an ADS pilot? Yes. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1 Appia Vibbia for CPM1
lithkul devant Legions of Infinite Dominion Zero-Day 238	Posted - 2014.06.10 14:21:00 - [102] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so I'm going to put some of my early thoughts here. None of this is final and is highly dependent on your feedback * Reduce ADS price to 250,000 ISK * Swarms to 150m, Assault Swarms to 200m * Buff base dropship health a little (not ADS) * Increase swarm reserve ammo * Reduce physical impulse on Assault Swarms * Slight increase to physical impulse on Swarms * Increase Assault Swarm speed, reduce tracking and flight time. Total range will still be slightly higher. Max Rotation rate is currently 90 degrees, will try 60 first. * Increase Standard Dropship speed (140 -> 160) * Increase missiles to 6/7/8, reduce damage to compensate (165) to close gap between standard, advanced and prototype. * Reduce Assault Swarm damage (looking at 10% initially) Vehicle Armour Repairers need a big hit with a nerf bat, so I'll also look at those. However they are a much wider issue, so that might take some more time. The resistance profiles for swarms also seem a bit strange, so I'll dig into those as well. I saw someone mention afterburners increasing damage taken as a thought, and from what I can see that might be possible, but that's going into mad science territory at this stage and I haven't given it much thought yet. Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target? While I think your intentions might be good on this, I think you are doing it wrong. 1. When you reduce the damage of swarm missiles you reduce the possible chance for them to break the regen cycle. Aka shields will not even slow down and the damage you just applied will mean nothing. 2. Armor repairs do not need a huge nerf on how much they repair per tick, they need a nerf on CPU/PG so that you can not make yourself invincible to most forms of damage, such as only being able to have 2 max on or hardwire it so that you can only have 1 possible. (As you said tank to tank combat is in a good place) 3. Swarm launchers have to short of a range as is, to make it even shorter just puts them more at risk. So much so I will retire my Swarm launcher fit if the max range is 150 for the standard. Because the FG out damages it and out ranges it and even pushes the dropship more then the SL does. Not to mention the PLC might be becoming an actual AV weapon, which again will out perform the SL. 4. Exactly why are you making a weapon, that has literally one function, which is to shoot vehicles less effective then weapons that can actually do damage to infantry as well major example the forge gun? That right their is a huge nerf, due to having to rely upon others to protect them most times. Though the other changes you are proposing would be very nice, if you need me to I can easily find plenty of videos of SL not doing enough damage to break regen cycles. A SL that provides a slowing buff would be awesome, but I bet every tanker and ADS pilot will complain that it is OP within seconds.

CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8027	Posted - 2014.06.10 14:31:00 - [103] - Quote lithkul devant wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so I'm going to put some of my early thoughts here. None of this is final and is highly dependent on your feedback * Reduce ADS price to 250,000 ISK * Swarms to 150m, Assault Swarms to 200m * Buff base dropship health a little (not ADS) * Increase swarm reserve ammo * Reduce physical impulse on Assault Swarms * Slight increase to physical impulse on Swarms * Increase Assault Swarm speed, reduce tracking and flight time. Total range will still be slightly higher. Max Rotation rate is currently 90 degrees, will try 60 first. * Increase Standard Dropship speed (140 -> 160) * Increase missiles to 6/7/8, reduce damage to compensate (165) to close gap between standard, advanced and prototype. * Reduce Assault Swarm damage (looking at 10% initially) Vehicle Armour Repairers need a big hit with a nerf bat, so I'll also look at those. However they are a much wider issue, so that might take some more time. The resistance profiles for swarms also seem a bit strange, so I'll dig into those as well. I saw someone mention afterburners increasing damage taken as a thought, and from what I can see that might be possible, but that's going into mad science territory at this stage and I haven't given it much thought yet. Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target? While I think your intentions might be good on this, I think you are doing it wrong. 1. When you reduce the damage of swarm missiles you reduce the possible chance for them to break the regen cycle. Aka shields will not even slow down and the damage you just applied will mean nothing. 2. Armor repairs do not need a huge nerf on how much they repair per tick, they need a nerf on CPU/PG so that you can not make yourself invincible to most forms of damage, such as only being able to have 2 max on or hardwire it so that you can only have 1 possible. (As you said tank to tank combat is in a good place) 3. Swarm launchers have to short of a range as is, to make it even shorter just puts them more at risk. So much so I will retire my Swarm launcher fit if the max range is 150 for the standard. Because the FG out damages it and out ranges it and even pushes the dropship more then the SL does. Not to mention the PLC might be becoming an actual AV weapon, which again will out perform the SL. 4. Exactly why are you making a weapon, that has literally one function, which is to shoot vehicles less effective then weapons that can actually do damage to infantry as well major example the forge gun? That right their is a huge nerf, due to having to rely upon others to protect them most times. Though the other changes you are proposing would be very nice, if you need me to I can easily find plenty of videos of SL not doing enough damage to break regen cycles. A SL that provides a slowing buff would be awesome, but I bet every tanker and ADS pilot will complain that it is OP within seconds. I'm pretty sure that we can reduce that threshold from 102 to 80-75 or even lower safely (anything that isn't an AV weapon already has a really low multiplier so shouldn't interfere still). There's also a strange thing I've found with the resistances for dropships against swarms (the 55% efficiency people have mentioned), so fixing that might solve a lot of problems. PG/CPU modifications are something we've considered, but that's a little beyond the scope of Bravo. Chances are we won't touch them this time around and leave them for another hotfix. Swarm Range is the biggest thing I'll need feedback for, as it's hard to duplicate actual battlefield conditions with less people. There is no damage nerf, prototype damage is the same and standard and advanced are higher. Swarms have the advantage in that they can lockon to their targets, which gives a much higher amount of accuracy. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3666	Posted - 2014.06.10 14:33:00 - [104] - Quote Hobo on Fire wrote: but the low end swarm launchers need a little buff. I'm thinking a reduction to the base lock on time (with balanced reduction to the operation lock-on bonus) to give entry level swarms a better DPS, while keeping wiyrkomi users where they are now. That would actually make sense. Have a Lock On time per missal, so that while the Proto Swarm with more missals does a lot more damage, the Standard Swarm would lock faster and not be as far behind on DPS. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1594	Posted - 2014.06.10 14:35:00 - [105] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Hobo on Fire wrote: but the low end swarm launchers need a little buff. I'm thinking a reduction to the base lock on time (with balanced reduction to the operation lock-on bonus) to give entry level swarms a better DPS, while keeping wiyrkomi users where they are now. That would actually make sense. Have a Lock On time per missal, so that while the Proto Swarm with more missals does a lot more damage, the Standard Swarm would lock faster and not be as far behind on DPS. o/ Fox Tell me, have you ever danced under tank fire while trying to get a target lock? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2130	Posted - 2014.06.10 14:38:00 - [106] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: ............ Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target? We need to approach vehicles and fighting them more this way. The 'problem' with damage/range/lockons nerfs/buffs of weapons systems is that, while necessary for balancing, these adjustments do not give us what we need for interesting AV gameplay. The current toolkit of AV infantry is understocked. Currently infantry has two options for dealing with vehicles: detecting them(still buggy, prolly due to tacnet lag, imo) and applying damage. The 'waves of opportunity' tank vehicle model has two primary variables: hardener/repper duty cycle and mobility(velocity/acceletation). Balance between infanty AV and vehicles revolves around these variables. Logibro, your proposal is encouraging because it is the first time i've seen CCP pay any attention at all to the fundamental variables in the AV/Vehicle balance equation. Wrt the slowdow effect proposal, i would say that it's a great start and that there's a lot of opportunity for variation: The webbing effect could be of varying strengths/durations. We could look at reducing acceleration or increasing inertia/mass. We could interfere with hardener duty cycle, repper duty cycle, hardener/repper duty cycle. We could mess with vehicle module turn-on. We use specialist 'tagging' swarms to increase lock-on range for other swarms. There an inherent balance built in here because any weapon generating these effect can be forced to trade off damage/ ammo/range/lockon etc. Lastly, these tools apply equally well to ground vehicle AV and are prolly more important for the quality of the DUST experience on the ground than in the air. PSN: RationalSpark
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3666	Posted - 2014.06.10 14:39:00 - [107] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Hobo on Fire wrote: but the low end swarm launchers need a little buff. I'm thinking a reduction to the base lock on time (with balanced reduction to the operation lock-on bonus) to give entry level swarms a better DPS, while keeping wiyrkomi users where they are now. That would actually make sense. Have a Lock On time per missal, so that while the Proto Swarm with more missals does a lot more damage, the Standard Swarm would lock faster and not be as far behind on DPS. o/ Fox Tell me, have you ever danced under tank fire while trying to get a target lock? Most definitely, although I have not been using Swarms very much since the week of testing I did after 1.7. I used to enjoy dueling with LAVs in an open field back in the Murder Taxi days. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 245	Posted - 2014.06.10 14:48:00 - [108] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so I'm going to put some of my early thoughts here. None of this is final and is highly dependent on your feedback * Reduce ADS price to 250,000 ISK * Swarms to 150m, Assault Swarms to 200m * Buff base dropship health a little (not ADS) * Increase swarm reserve ammo * Reduce physical impulse on Assault Swarms * Slight increase to physical impulse on Swarms * Increase Assault Swarm speed, reduce tracking and flight time. Total range will still be slightly higher. Max Rotation rate is currently 90 degrees, will try 60 first. * Increase Standard Dropship speed (140 -> 160) * Increase missiles to 6/7/8, reduce damage to compensate (165) to close gap between standard, advanced and prototype. * Reduce Assault Swarm damage (looking at 10% initially) Vehicle Armour Repairers need a big hit with a nerf bat, so I'll also look at those. However they are a much wider issue, so that might take some more time. The resistance profiles for swarms also seem a bit strange, so I'll dig into those as well. I saw someone mention afterburners increasing damage taken as a thought, and from what I can see that might be possible, but that's going into mad science territory at this stage and I haven't given it much thought yet. Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target? I'll only comment on the points that I have issues with - everything else seems reasonable... Please do NOT nerf standard swarm range - I think it should be buffed to 200m. It still takes close to a second and a half to target-lock and those vehicles are moving. Good luck getting close enough on foot in Commando suit. I still don't understand why it takes the same lock-time for a 50m target as it does for a 150m target. Longer lock times for farther targets solves this issue without nerfing range. A distant moving/flying target has a greater chance of escape; a closer stationary target, less so. Adding a weaker, 225m-250m Assault variant makes sense as does a stronger, 150m-175m Breach variant (for HAVs?). Not sure about the value of the Specialist model. I think swarm missiles should be faster than all vehicles without burners, but probably slower than those with. So make whatever corrections needed there. Increasing missile count while reducing damage per missile seems a reasonable way to flatten the damage curve from std to proto, but the bug that allows ADSs to shield regenerate throughout a missile volley impact because individual missile damage is to low needs to be corrected. Standard swarm missile smarts need to be improved some to reduce the odds of hitting inanimate things like molehills and building cross-beams - especially if the number of missiles are to be increased. HOWEVER, adding a chance variable that causes random missiles to miss their target a (very) small percentage of the time even if they run into nothing else on route seems fair and would reward pilot skill. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1 Appia Vibbia for CPM1
Beld Errmon 1664	Posted - 2014.06.10 15:11:00 - [109] - Quote I think ppl need to keep in mind that these hotfixes from what I remember reading are limited to changing stats, they can change a few things like damage and rate of fire, but suggesting major changes that would require large amounts of coding is a waste of time. As a pilot the only thing i can add to this topic that wouldn't be completely self serving and biased is buff the swarm with caution, it needs some work so that it isn't irrelevant to an incubus, but it is the most spammed AV weapon in the game i've had matches where 4 ppl plus have just spammed missiles nonstop, dropships will be a thing of the past if protoswarms start killing incubi in 2 shots. Pilot - Tanker - FOTM (insert here)

CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8030	Posted - 2014.06.10 15:26:00 - [110] - Quote As it turns out, I found a bug that means the Forge Gun and Swarm weren't getting their proficiency skill bonuses against vehicle armour on HAVs and Dropships. I think I'll look at fixing that. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)


Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1598	Posted - 2014.06.10 15:36:00 - [111] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: As it turns out, I found a bug that means the Forge Gun and Swarm weren't getting their proficiency skill bonuses against vehicle armour on HAVs and Dropships. I think I'll look at fixing that. Good find, Logibro! I formally withdraw all AV feedback I've offered to date, as well as any changes I've proposed and/or supported. Will reassess post-fix. PS: A suggestion, if I may. We could roll this out ahead of Bravo to see if add'l changes remain warranted. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Archer Yorcot S.e.V.e.N. General Tso's Alliance 71	Posted - 2014.06.10 15:36:00 - [112] - Quote @ Logibro, Any chance you can deploy that bug fix during down time before releasing Bravo? It would help the community give more accurate feedback if we could see what it looks like when our proficiency skills are actually applied correctly. This forum signature is OP.
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1001	Posted - 2014.06.10 15:53:00 - [113] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so I'm going to put some of my early thoughts here. None of this is final and is highly dependent on your feedback * Reduce ADS price to 250,000 ISK * Swarms to 150m, Assault Swarms to 200m * Buff base dropship health a little (not ADS) * Increase swarm reserve ammo * Reduce physical impulse on Assault Swarms * Slight increase to physical impulse on Swarms * Increase Assault Swarm speed, reduce tracking and flight time. Total range will still be slightly higher. Max Rotation rate is currently 90 degrees, will try 60 first. * Increase Standard Dropship speed (140 -> 160) * Increase missiles to 6/7/8, reduce damage to compensate (165) to close gap between standard, advanced and prototype. * Reduce Assault Swarm damage (looking at 10% initially) Vehicle Armour Repairers need a big hit with a nerf bat, so I'll also look at those. However they are a much wider issue, so that might take some more time. The resistance profiles for swarms also seem a bit strange, so I'll dig into those as well. I saw someone mention afterburners increasing damage taken as a thought, and from what I can see that might be possible, but that's going into mad science territory at this stage and I haven't given it much thought yet. Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target? Just because Incubus is unkillable doesn't mean python is. I have lost many pythons to swarms especially when they hit you so hard you get turned upside down. Swarms are dangerous to pythons, Buff Python resistance toward swarms. A lock and shoot weapon shouldn't be too powerful.
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1001	Posted - 2014.06.10 16:00:00 - [114] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so I'm going to put some of my early thoughts here. None of this is final and is highly dependent on your feedback * Reduce ADS price to 250,000 ISK * Swarms to 150m, Assault Swarms to 200m * Buff base dropship health a little (not ADS) * Increase swarm reserve ammo * Reduce physical impulse on Assault Swarms * Slight increase to physical impulse on Swarms * Increase Assault Swarm speed, reduce tracking and flight time. Total range will still be slightly higher. Max Rotation rate is currently 90 degrees, will try 60 first. * Increase Standard Dropship speed (140 -> 160) * Increase missiles to 6/7/8, reduce damage to compensate (165) to close gap between standard, advanced and prototype. * Reduce Assault Swarm damage (looking at 10% initially) Vehicle Armour Repairers need a big hit with a nerf bat, so I'll also look at those. However they are a much wider issue, so that might take some more time. The resistance profiles for swarms also seem a bit strange, so I'll dig into those as well. I saw someone mention afterburners increasing damage taken as a thought, and from what I can see that might be possible, but that's going into mad science territory at this stage and I haven't given it much thought yet. Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target? I'll only comment on the points that I have issues with - everything else seems reasonable... Please do NOT nerf standard swarm range - I think it should be buffed to 200m. It still takes close to a second and a half to target-lock and those vehicles are moving. Good luck getting close enough on foot in Commando suit. I still don't understand why it takes the same lock-time for a 50m target as it does for a 150m target. Longer lock times for farther targets solves this issue without nerfing range. A distant moving/flying target has a greater chance of escape; a closer stationary target, less so. Adding a weaker, 225m-250m Assault variant makes sense as does a stronger, 150m-175m Breach variant (for HAVs?). Not sure about the value of the Specialist model. I think swarm missiles should be faster than all vehicles without burners, but probably slower than those with. So make whatever corrections needed there. Increasing missile count while reducing damage per missile seems a reasonable way to flatten the damage curve from std to proto, but the bug that allows ADSs to shield regenerate throughout a missile volley impact because individual missile damage is to low needs to be corrected. Standard swarm missile smarts need to be improved some to reduce the odds of hitting inanimate things like molehills and building cross-beams - especially if the number of missiles are to be increased. HOWEVER, adding a chance variable that causes random missiles to miss their target a (very) small percentage of the time even if they run into nothing else on route seems fair and would reward pilot skill. Python shields are stopped by a mass driver round... They are stopped by one swarm aswell..
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1003	Posted - 2014.06.10 16:20:00 - [115] - Quote 1.) Don't balance AV vs Vehicles solely based on the fact that Armor vehicles are a bit OP. This throws off the shield vs AV balance. A buff to swarms at this state will render the Python completely useless. A militia swarms can already knock a Python out of control relatively easy and buffing that, the Python will becomes even more UP then now. The collision damage on shield vehicles is ridiculous, landing takes away a minimum of 400 shields and accidentally hitting the ground at 3 mph will knock of thousands. Pythons are made of Paper and Air, and a buff to swarms will just mess up the whole situation. Swarms are already really dangerous to a Python. 2.) Don't nerf two aspects of an asset. The nerf to flaylock was just plain stupid. Nerfing Radius and splash damage made the weapon another usless weapon in the arsenal of useless weapons. Curretly- You are deciding to buff the physical impact of swarms, the # of missiles, also trying to implement a weapon that will slow down DS. The only thing the PYTHON can DO is RUN, IT CANNOT TANK SH*TTTTTTT YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE PYTHON STUPIDLY UP!!! PLEASE CCP... YOU FKED UP WITH SCOUTS (more brick tanked scouts) and now you are going to over nerf the ADS especailly PYTHON which is already UP against swarms.
Hobo on Fire Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 285	Posted - 2014.06.10 16:21:00 - [116] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so I'm going to put some of my early thoughts here. None of this is final and is highly dependent on your feedback * Reduce ADS price to 250,000 ISK * Swarms to 150m, Assault Swarms to 200m * Buff base dropship health a little (not ADS) * Increase swarm reserve ammo * Reduce physical impulse on Assault Swarms * Slight increase to physical impulse on Swarms * Increase Assault Swarm speed, reduce tracking and flight time. Total range will still be slightly higher. Max Rotation rate is currently 90 degrees, will try 60 first. * Increase Standard Dropship speed (140 -> 160) * Increase missiles to 6/7/8, reduce damage to compensate (165) to close gap between standard, advanced and prototype. * Reduce Assault Swarm damage (looking at 10% initially) [snip] Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target? I won't speak on dropship speed or effects of physical impulse; the pilots can debate how much they should be slapped around. I like most of the rest, but I have some suggestions. Normal swarms should keep their current range... at 175 there are still a ton of situations where HAVs can simply drive away to get out of range. As for Assault Swarms: I like the idea of making them faster but slower turning. I would put the assault swarms at 225m or 250m, but perhaps with stronger reduction to damage (20% or 25%) As others have said, the 6/7/8 missile idea is great for flattening the progression, as long as the shield regen issues are addressed. As much as I like the idea of a weapon to slow targets, I'm unsure how much use it would get attached to a "primary" AV weapon. The only way for it to be effective would be in concert with other AV weapons, which requires a commando with a second AV weapon (so almost zero anti infantry defense) or trying to herd blue dots; not as simple a task as many vehicle users would like to believe. The effect would be great on a variant to proximity mines though, or perhaps on an AV grenade or even a specialized flaylock.
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1003	Posted - 2014.06.10 16:22:00 - [117] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: lithkul devant wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so I'm going to put some of my early thoughts here. None of this is final and is highly dependent on your feedback * Reduce ADS price to 250,000 ISK * Swarms to 150m, Assault Swarms to 200m * Buff base dropship health a little (not ADS) * Increase swarm reserve ammo * Reduce physical impulse on Assault Swarms * Slight increase to physical impulse on Swarms * Increase Assault Swarm speed, reduce tracking and flight time. Total range will still be slightly higher. Max Rotation rate is currently 90 degrees, will try 60 first. * Increase Standard Dropship speed (140 -> 160) * Increase missiles to 6/7/8, reduce damage to compensate (165) to close gap between standard, advanced and prototype. * Reduce Assault Swarm damage (looking at 10% initially) Vehicle Armour Repairers need a big hit with a nerf bat, so I'll also look at those. However they are a much wider issue, so that might take some more time. The resistance profiles for swarms also seem a bit strange, so I'll dig into those as well. I saw someone mention afterburners increasing damage taken as a thought, and from what I can see that might be possible, but that's going into mad science territory at this stage and I haven't given it much thought yet. Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target? While I think your intentions might be good on this, I think you are doing it wrong. 1. When you reduce the damage of swarm missiles you reduce the possible chance for them to break the regen cycle. Aka shields will not even slow down and the damage you just applied will mean nothing. 2. Armor repairs do not need a huge nerf on how much they repair per tick, they need a nerf on CPU/PG so that you can not make yourself invincible to most forms of damage, such as only being able to have 2 max on or hardwire it so that you can only have 1 possible. (As you said tank to tank combat is in a good place) 3. Swarm launchers have to short of a range as is, to make it even shorter just puts them more at risk. So much so I will retire my Swarm launcher fit if the max range is 150 for the standard. Because the FG out damages it and out ranges it and even pushes the dropship more then the SL does. Not to mention the PLC might be becoming an actual AV weapon, which again will out perform the SL. 4. Exactly why are you making a weapon, that has literally one function, which is to shoot vehicles less effective then weapons that can actually do damage to infantry as well major example the forge gun? That right their is a huge nerf, due to having to rely upon others to protect them most times. Though the other changes you are proposing would be very nice, if you need me to I can easily find plenty of videos of SL not doing enough damage to break regen cycles. A SL that provides a slowing buff would be awesome, but I bet every tanker and ADS pilot will complain that it is OP within seconds. I'm pretty sure that we can reduce that threshold from 102 to 80-75 or even lower safely (anything that isn't an AV weapon already has a really low multiplier so shouldn't interfere still). There's also a strange thing I've found with the resistances for dropships against swarms (the 55% efficiency people have mentioned), so fixing that might solve a lot of problems. PG/CPU modifications are something we've considered, but that's a little beyond the scope of Bravo. Chances are we won't touch them this time around and leave them for another hotfix. Swarm Range is the biggest thing I'll need feedback for, as it's hard to duplicate actual battlefield conditions with less people. There is no damage nerf, prototype damage is the same and standard and advanced are higher. Swarms have the advantage in that they can lockon to their targets, which gives a much higher amount of accuracy. My small missiles does 50% damage to shields, my large missiles do 50% damage to shields, Swarms should do 50% damage to shields.. I can't believe you are buffing this lock and fire skill-less weapon. At least make it so they have to keep the lock on ..
Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar Silver Bullet Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 648	Posted - 2014.06.10 16:23:00 - [118] - Quote yeah a few swarm laucher variants would help longer lock ranges, damages or lock times, maby a return of the dumbfire variant
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 810	Posted - 2014.06.10 16:24:00 - [119] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: As it turns out, I found a bug that means the Forge Gun and Swarm weren't getting their proficiency skill bonuses against vehicle armour on HAVs and Dropships. I think I'll look at fixing that. Yeah, that might be a good idea. I can't figure out if I am happy you found it or pissed that it was there in the first place. This type of thing is what gives parents gray hair when their kids do it. I liked your proposals regarding swarms. I think collision damage on some of the dropships is excessive as well. Smaller canges are better than big ones, the AR buff/CR nerf is evidence of that. It looked insignificant but turned out to be a good call. Love the idea of a slowdown effect weapon. We have been asking for that for a long time. As you are proposing it, it would be a team based weapon and it would make dual swarm Commandos a thing. Because, that's why.
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2859	Posted - 2014.06.10 16:56:00 - [120] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Swarm Range is the biggest thing I'll need feedback for, as it's hard to duplicate actual battlefield conditions with less people. . . . Swarms have the advantage in that they can lockon to their targets, which gives a much higher amount of accuracy. 150m is a very short distance for AV. AV gravitates towards high places so that it can see the field for where the vehicles are. But with swarms especially, those things feel like they home in on terrain more than the vehicles. I'm still getting killed from 120+ meters out with HAV's Large Blaster. Or Small Missile turrets that do nearly as much damage as a shotgun but from 30+ meters out and get out of your range after making a pass and killing a few people. 200 basic variant, 300m Assault variant, please. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia

Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10266	Posted - 2014.06.10 16:58:00 - [121] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: lithkul devant wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so I'm going to put some of my early thoughts here. None of this is final and is highly dependent on your feedback * Reduce ADS price to 250,000 ISK * Swarms to 150m, Assault Swarms to 200m * Buff base dropship health a little (not ADS) * Increase swarm reserve ammo * Reduce physical impulse on Assault Swarms * Slight increase to physical impulse on Swarms * Increase Assault Swarm speed, reduce tracking and flight time. Total range will still be slightly higher. Max Rotation rate is currently 90 degrees, will try 60 first. * Increase Standard Dropship speed (140 -> 160) * Increase missiles to 6/7/8, reduce damage to compensate (165) to close gap between standard, advanced and prototype. * Reduce Assault Swarm damage (looking at 10% initially) Vehicle Armour Repairers need a big hit with a nerf bat, so I'll also look at those. However they are a much wider issue, so that might take some more time. The resistance profiles for swarms also seem a bit strange, so I'll dig into those as well. I saw someone mention afterburners increasing damage taken as a thought, and from what I can see that might be possible, but that's going into mad science territory at this stage and I haven't given it much thought yet. Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target? While I think your intentions might be good on this, I think you are doing it wrong. 1. When you reduce the damage of swarm missiles you reduce the possible chance for them to break the regen cycle. Aka shields will not even slow down and the damage you just applied will mean nothing. 2. Armor repairs do not need a huge nerf on how much they repair per tick, they need a nerf on CPU/PG so that you can not make yourself invincible to most forms of damage, such as only being able to have 2 max on or hardwire it so that you can only have 1 possible. (As you said tank to tank combat is in a good place) 3. Swarm launchers have to short of a range as is, to make it even shorter just puts them more at risk. So much so I will retire my Swarm launcher fit if the max range is 150 for the standard. Because the FG out damages it and out ranges it and even pushes the dropship more then the SL does. Not to mention the PLC might be becoming an actual AV weapon, which again will out perform the SL. 4. Exactly why are you making a weapon, that has literally one function, which is to shoot vehicles less effective then weapons that can actually do damage to infantry as well major example the forge gun? That right their is a huge nerf, due to having to rely upon others to protect them most times. Though the other changes you are proposing would be very nice, if you need me to I can easily find plenty of videos of SL not doing enough damage to break regen cycles. A SL that provides a slowing buff would be awesome, but I bet every tanker and ADS pilot will complain that it is OP within seconds. I'm pretty sure that we can reduce that threshold from 102 to 80-75 or even lower safely (anything that isn't an AV weapon already has a really low multiplier so shouldn't interfere still). There's also a strange thing I've found with the resistances for dropships against swarms (the 55% efficiency people have mentioned), so fixing that might solve a lot of problems. PG/CPU modifications are something we've considered, but that's a little beyond the scope of Bravo. Chances are we won't touch them this time around and leave them for another hotfix. Swarm Range is the biggest thing I'll need feedback for, as it's hard to duplicate actual battlefield conditions with less people. There is no damage nerf, prototype damage is the same and standard and advanced are higher. Swarms have the advantage in that they can lockon to their targets, which gives a much higher amount of accuracy. My small missiles does 50% damage to shields, my large missiles do 50% damage to shields, Swarms should do 50% damage to shields.. I can't believe you are buffing this lock and fire skill-less weapon. At least make it so they have to keep the lock on .. We are talking about vehicle sized targets here. In the range that the swarm launcher can actually lock on, a forge gun can VERY EASILY hit. It takes a lot of skill to MISS at that point. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 17	Posted - 2014.06.10 17:16:00 - [122] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: As it turns out, I found a bug that means the Forge Gun and Swarm weren't getting their proficiency skill bonuses against vehicle armour on HAVs and Dropships. I think I'll look at fixing that. Oh forgot to mention. Do nkt lower the threshold for shield vehicles, even with a hardener shield regen is stopped and makes pythons suck. Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1003	Posted - 2014.06.10 17:26:00 - [123] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: lithkul devant wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so I'm going to put some of my early thoughts here. None of this is final and is highly dependent on your feedback * Reduce ADS price to 250,000 ISK * Swarms to 150m, Assault Swarms to 200m * Buff base dropship health a little (not ADS) * Increase swarm reserve ammo * Reduce physical impulse on Assault Swarms * Slight increase to physical impulse on Swarms * Increase Assault Swarm speed, reduce tracking and flight time. Total range will still be slightly higher. Max Rotation rate is currently 90 degrees, will try 60 first. * Increase Standard Dropship speed (140 -> 160) * Increase missiles to 6/7/8, reduce damage to compensate (165) to close gap between standard, advanced and prototype. * Reduce Assault Swarm damage (looking at 10% initially) Vehicle Armour Repairers need a big hit with a nerf bat, so I'll also look at those. However they are a much wider issue, so that might take some more time. The resistance profiles for swarms also seem a bit strange, so I'll dig into those as well. I saw someone mention afterburners increasing damage taken as a thought, and from what I can see that might be possible, but that's going into mad science territory at this stage and I haven't given it much thought yet. Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target? While I think your intentions might be good on this, I think you are doing it wrong. 1. When you reduce the damage of swarm missiles you reduce the possible chance for them to break the regen cycle. Aka shields will not even slow down and the damage you just applied will mean nothing. 2. Armor repairs do not need a huge nerf on how much they repair per tick, they need a nerf on CPU/PG so that you can not make yourself invincible to most forms of damage, such as only being able to have 2 max on or hardwire it so that you can only have 1 possible. (As you said tank to tank combat is in a good place) 3. Swarm launchers have to short of a range as is, to make it even shorter just puts them more at risk. So much so I will retire my Swarm launcher fit if the max range is 150 for the standard. Because the FG out damages it and out ranges it and even pushes the dropship more then the SL does. Not to mention the PLC might be becoming an actual AV weapon, which again will out perform the SL. 4. Exactly why are you making a weapon, that has literally one function, which is to shoot vehicles less effective then weapons that can actually do damage to infantry as well major example the forge gun? That right their is a huge nerf, due to having to rely upon others to protect them most times. Though the other changes you are proposing would be very nice, if you need me to I can easily find plenty of videos of SL not doing enough damage to break regen cycles. A SL that provides a slowing buff would be awesome, but I bet every tanker and ADS pilot will complain that it is OP within seconds. I'm pretty sure that we can reduce that threshold from 102 to 80-75 or even lower safely (anything that isn't an AV weapon already has a really low multiplier so shouldn't interfere still). There's also a strange thing I've found with the resistances for dropships against swarms (the 55% efficiency people have mentioned), so fixing that might solve a lot of problems. PG/CPU modifications are something we've considered, but that's a little beyond the scope of Bravo. Chances are we won't touch them this time around and leave them for another hotfix. Swarm Range is the biggest thing I'll need feedback for, as it's hard to duplicate actual battlefield conditions with less people. There is no damage nerf, prototype damage is the same and standard and advanced are higher. Swarms have the advantage in that they can lockon to their targets, which gives a much higher amount of accuracy. My small missiles does 50% damage to shields, my large missiles do 50% damage to shields, Swarms should do 50% damage to shields.. I can't believe you are buffing this lock and fire skill-less weapon. At least make it so they have to keep the lock on .. We are talking about vehicle sized targets here. In the range that the swarm launcher can actually lock on, a forge gun can VERY EASILY hit. It takes a lot of skill to MISS at that point. ok then.. if it's that hard to miss make it so you have to keep aim on target..
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9297	Posted - 2014.06.10 17:29:00 - [124] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: ok then.. if it's that hard to miss make it so you have to keep aim on target.. That would easily ruin Swarm Launcher vs LAV combat. I thing dumbfire would be the better idea. Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical. -HAND
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10267	Posted - 2014.06.10 17:32:00 - [125] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: ok then.. if it's that hard to miss make it so you have to keep aim on target.. Then they won't be able to actually kill anything. They are balanced around firing 3 swarms really quickly, getting to cover, reloading, then firing again. They really cannot do anything otherwise. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 458	Posted - 2014.06.10 17:50:00 - [126] - Quote (The following are my thoughts as an ADS pilot.) CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so I'm going to put some of my early thoughts here. None of this is final and is highly dependent on your feedback * Reduce ADS price to 250,000 ISK Sweet zombie baby Jesus have my children now! :) It's not a huge drop in price, but it would be so damn welcome! CCP Logibro wrote: * Swarms to 150m, Assault Swarms to 200m I think that swarms are fine at 175, and I'd consider 225 to be pretty reasonable for the proposed assault swarms. Might need to see damage figures and acceleration differences first though. CCP Logibro wrote: * Buff base dropship health a little (not ADS) Interesting. I'd definitely like to see more regular DS flying about...and totally not because my PC Incubus needs feeding :D CCP Logibro wrote: * Increase swarm reserve ammo * Reduce physical impulse on Assault Swarms Both are definitely reasonable. CCP Logibro wrote: * Slight increase to physical impulse on Swarms I'm somewhat reticent about this potential change because swarm impulse is somewhat erratic: sometimes it will do nothing, or next to nothing, even to Pythons; sometimes it will almost 180 flip you.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 458	Posted - 2014.06.10 17:51:00 - [127] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: * Increase Assault Swarm speed, reduce tracking and flight time. Total range will still be slightly higher. Max Rotation rate is currently 90 degrees, will try 60 first. Can you shed any light on the rotation interval? Many folks have seen the swarms spinning about an ADS like mad dervishes for a couple of seconds, is that an artifact of the rotation interval? Any chance you could look into that please? CCP Logibro wrote: * Increase Standard Dropship speed (140 -> 160) Again, interesting and could serve to see more regular DS in the air. CCP Logibro wrote: * Increase missiles to 6/7/8, reduce damage to compensate (165) to close gap between standard, advanced and prototype. Very good choice! This is something I wholeheartedly endorse. My one concern would be the impulse effect each missile would bring - would it be the same as the current swarms or would it be reduced in line with the damage shift? CCP Logibro wrote: * Reduce Assault Swarm damage (looking at 10% initially) I think 10% would be a reasonable platform to begin with. CCP Logibro wrote: Vehicle Armour Repairers need a big hit with a nerf bat, so I'll also look at those. However they are a much wider issue, so that might take some more time. Indeed, many people feel that ADSs survive too well when the truth is that it is primarily the heavy rep Incubus that is the main culprit.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 458	Posted - 2014.06.10 17:52:00 - [128] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target? Interesting. I think this would need to be handled very carefully: speed is the lifeblood of the ADS, Pythons especially, and even a relatively short duration like 5 seconds could mean that a pair of AVers means auto death if the reduction is even vaguely large. I'd be interested to see it introduced, but as an aside, what is the likelihood of seeing it if we are not receiving client side updates? In all though, a lot of these changes would be excellent.
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone Psychotic Alliance 1291	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:04:00 - [129] - Quote Assault swarms should be fast, short range missiles. ADS only counter to swarms is to outrun them. That's the thing people don't understand about fire and forget weapons. The less effort needed to use, the less reward. So make assault swarm missiles move as fast as installation missiles, but they only fly up to 300m. This can be said to be because they have been modified to burn the fuel faster, giving increased speed but drastically lower flight time, on account of running out of fuel far faster. This is balanced, because an ADS can stil use speed to escape these swarms. But rather than escaping the swarms by moving faster than them, he escapes by outranging them faster. Meaning an assault swarm can apply its DPS easier than now, at the cost of being outranged far quicker. There should be a tradeoff over the normal swarm launcher for using the assault, and missile max range is a good place for it. Especially considering assault generally means higher DPS, less range (with a few aberrant exceptions, like the SMG, which need fixing.) That's what you get!! - DA Rick
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3669	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:09:00 - [130] - Quote AV damage resistance: It has been stated several times in this thread that certain (Gallente) dropships experience reduced damage from Swarm Launchers. This is a problem because on the one hand the damage reduction is to great, and on the other hand because it is not applied to all dropships. However, if the damage reduction could be adjusted it could be a useful tool in AV balance. We could balance AV against HAVGÇÖs, and then use the AV damage resistance of dropships to balance them against the AV that has been balanced against HAVGÇÖs. It would have to be applied to all dropships though. Swarm Launchers: - I think that Swarm Damage should be adjusted to 250 per missile. - I think that lock time on Swarm Launchers should be applied per missile, so that Lock time increases with each additional missile, just as Damage increases as you move from Militia/Standard, to Proto. The balance of Time to Damage should be such that the increase in DPS from Militia/Standard, to Proto should be comparable to the increase in DPS of Standard Forge Guns to Proto Forge Guns. One of the challenges of balancing the Swarm Launcher has always been that making the Proto Swarm Launcher balanced meant that the Standard Swarm Launcher became completely ineffective, and balancing the Standard Swarm Launcher made the Proto version OP. This change would salve that problem, without getting ride of the unique damage per missile setup which makes Swarm Launchers unique. Proto Swarms would still have much higher Alpha, but the difference in DPS would not be as extreme. Missile Speed: Judge Rhadamanthus has explained that the first indication a Dropship pilot often has that there is a Swarm Launcher targeting them is when the first Swarm hits, and by that time there is already more swarms in the air. It occurs to me that if Swarm Missiles moved fast enough, the first Swarm would hit while the Swarm Launcher was still trying to acquire its second lock. So faster swarms would actually give Dropship pilots more time to react. On the other hand it would be harder to get away from the Swarms once they are in the air. So when looking at it that way, would faster missiles be better or worse? From a Dropship pilot perspective? From an AV perspective? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3669	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:29:00 - [131] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Also, while an incubus can take unlimited volleys of militia swarms and not budge, the python has to run away with max two swarms. I would also like to say the shield collision damage is through the roof. Landing takes away 400 shield minimum, accidentally bumping a wall just a tad takes off over 1000s of shield and swarms throw pythons around like tennis balls. The heavier incubus is resistant to collision, has more EHP, better repair, doesn't turn upside down due to one volley of swarm. Obviously Incubus is the best ADS just like Madrugar is the best tank. I have not flown Pythons enough (because I am cash strapped) to comment on them, but recently I got 50 free Caldari Dropships from the PSN store (the Red ones) which I think had the same operating characteristics as a Python (despite being standard configuration) because what you posted describes them perfectly. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3044	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:32:00 - [132] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Assault swarms should be fast, short range missiles. ADS only counter to swarms is to outrun them. That's the thing people don't understand about fire and forget weapons. The less effort needed to use, the less reward. So make assault swarm missiles move as fast as installation missiles, but they only fly up to 300m. This can be said to be because they have been modified to burn the fuel faster, giving increased speed but drastically lower flight time, on account of running out of fuel far faster. This is balanced, because an ADS can stil use speed to escape these swarms. But rather than escaping the swarms by moving faster than them, he escapes by outranging them faster. Meaning an assault swarm can apply its DPS easier than now, at the cost of being outranged far quicker. There should be a tradeoff over the normal swarm launcher for using the assault, and missile max range is a good place for it. Especially considering assault generally means higher DPS, less range (with a few aberrant exceptions, like the SMG, which need fixing.) Along these same lines as Alena is saying. Logibro, please strive to be more consistent with the current nomenclature in the game. All light weapon assault variants are shorter range and higher rate of fire. Your proposed longer range and slower missile variant would better fall under either the breach or tactical variant name. As Rattati has been trying to fix with the AR. The idea of a slower and short range variant is fundamentally bad design and Rattati has already proposed reworking the Breach Plasma Rifle into a longer range weapon than the Assault Plasma rifle, which is good. This should be translating to sidearms and AV, try to make it so: Assault Variant should be high damage and short range Breach should be higher damage at slightly longer range at the expense of missile velocity Tactical should be lower damage but very long range. Very basic kind of spreadsheet here with 'proposed ideas'. Numbers are likely unbalanced but just for general idea. Swarm Launcher variants 'proposal'
lithkul devant Legions of Infinite Dominion Zero-Day 239	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:35:00 - [133] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: lithkul devant wrote: [quote=CCP Logibro]Alright, so I'm going to put some of my early thoughts here. None of this is final and is highly dependent on your feedback While I think your intentions might be good on this, I think you are doing it wrong. 1. When you reduce the damage of swarm missiles you reduce the possible chance for them to break the regen cycle. Aka shields will not even slow down and the damage you just applied will mean nothing. 2. Armor repairs do not need a huge nerf on how much they repair per tick, they need a nerf on CPU/PG so that you can not make yourself invincible to most forms of damage, such as only being able to have 2 max on or hardwire it so that you can only have 1 possible. (As you said tank to tank combat is in a good place) 3. Swarm launchers have to short of a range as is, to make it even shorter just puts them more at risk. So much so I will retire my Swarm launcher fit if the max range is 150 for the standard. Because the FG out damages it and out ranges it and even pushes the dropship more then the SL does. Not to mention the PLC might be becoming an actual AV weapon, which again will out perform the SL. 4. Exactly why are you making a weapon, that has literally one function, which is to shoot vehicles less effective then weapons that can actually do damage to infantry as well major example the forge gun? That right their is a huge nerf, due to having to rely upon others to protect them most times. Though the other changes you are proposing would be very nice, if you need me to I can easily find plenty of videos of SL not doing enough damage to break regen cycles. A SL that provides a slowing buff would be awesome, but I bet every tanker and ADS pilot will complain that it is OP within seconds. I'm pretty sure that we can reduce that threshold from 102 to 80-75 or even lower safely (anything that isn't an AV weapon already has a really low multiplier so shouldn't interfere still). There's also a strange thing I've found with the resistances for dropships against swarms (the 55% efficiency people have mentioned), so fixing that might solve a lot of problems. PG/CPU modifications are something we've considered, but that's a little beyond the scope of Bravo. Chances are we won't touch them this time around and leave them for another hotfix. Swarm Range is the biggest thing I'll need feedback for, as it's hard to duplicate actual battlefield conditions with less people. There is no damage nerf, prototype damage is the same and standard and advanced are higher. Swarms have the advantage in that they can lockon to their targets, which gives a much higher amount of accuracy. Let me retort to you then, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxwLQAFLbJM in this video it talks about the ADS and how SL work, that the operating level of a ADS is roughly 50-100m, meaning that the SL has only roughly 100 meters in your current system to play with. This provides for an opportunity to strike, but as also shown in the video ADS pilots have ways of nearly completly negating the SL entirely with such a move that Judge pulls off in the video. We also have where ADS pilots can afterburn out of a hostile zone in less then 3 seconds, meaning they fear Forge guns far more then SL. For those people saying a SL does not take skill, they are out of their minds. It takes skill to effectively harrass an ADS or a Tank without them prioritizing to kill you. So yes it does take quite a bit of skill to know when to shoot the missiles cause the trails will lead them right back to you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls7hOEdNgXE In this video we see the ADS armor and shields have the same resistance values, which have yet not been changed at all. We also see that SL's do not cross the damage threshold to stop regen of shields or armor, some of this has been fixed but not all. So in conclusion we have a few things to talk about. 1. Do SL in your proposed measure stop the regen of shields and do they do the appropiate damage for what they are. 2. Is 150m enough of a targeting range to be able to effectively combat ADS and tanks (I do not think so, because blaster tanks can kill from 100m still along with Rail tanks able to kill at a huge distance as well, including the fact that ADS use missiles which typically 1-2 hit kill an infantry that is trying to AV, to do significant damage to an ADS to even chase it off, it takes 3-5 volleys even when the ADS is not protecting itself with hardeners.) 3. Tanks and ADS are very quick moving vehicles currently with high rates of acceleration. Tanks need reduced acceleration, but can keep max speed. (Tankers use terrain even just small minute bumps to block swarms, ADS afterburners) 4. If you lower the damage per missile, then you add more missiles which you are proposing, when each missile hits against an ADS as shown in the video you are in fact nerfing the damage of the SL due to regen. Let me give an example If you have 4 missiles then do 220 damage per missile that's 880, if you have 8 missiles that do 110, you have again 880, then you factor in the resistance against each missile so for the first example 220.55= 121 now for the other 110.55= 60.5 now lets multiple them back into actual damage, this can make the missiles fall below the damage threshold to stop the regen which is the major issue as shown in the second video (If my math is wrong I appologize in advance compared to how well Judge displays it.) I appologize for having to cut off your original post Logibro, I needed to do so for space to retort to you properly.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3671	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:51:00 - [134] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: We seem to be limiting our thoughts to too small an area. Vehicle balance has a major problem. One that might not even be surmountable. The variables we have to tweak are limited. Perhaps too limited to actualy reach a suitable balance without client updates that are not coming. Perhaps there are other ways to adjust swarms outside of speed, range and damage. I am just throwing stuff out here, these are not well thought out or even practical, there purpose is to inspire lateral thinking (trying to work within the no client update restriction): 1) Special swarms that also do damage to the pilot 2) Missiles that do more damage the slower a dropship is going. Say double damage it it is hovering, half damage when it is at full speed. Then you could remove the afterburner completely 3) Low damage but high impact physics swarms 4) Change the after burner to not change speed but make its heat throw swarms off so they miss (increase cool down too) 5) Link damage to altitude and remove the afterburner. Low altitude = high damage. 6) Remove the afterburner but increase dropship HP 7) increase swarm damage if a dropship has its afterburner active. Theres are just ideas to get you considering other options. The idea for example with 2 and 5 is to stop dropships just hanging there raining unfair death. If I do that I take a great risk of getting hit with 440 hp damage swarms. But if I am moving, say flying to drop off troops, like dropships should, then I take far less damage, say 100 per missile. So swarmers can time their attacks for when the dropship reaches it's destination. At the point when we are a threat to the team; rather than just blasting away from long range the whole match. Both players have to be more strategic. We can remove the afterburner, buff swarm damage. Over to you...... 1) Special swarms that also do damage to the pilot Perhaps it delivers a massive electrical charge which damages the pilot and disrupts the dropshipsGÇÖ engines causing it to go ballistic for half a second before the engines come back online. (Not long enough to crash the Dropship unless it is really low to the ground, but enough that they pilot will have to manoeuver to recover and will want to gain more elevation.) 2) Missiles that do more damage the slower a dropship is going. Say double damage it it is hovering, half damage when it is at full speed. Then you could remove the afterburner completely Perhaps have damage proportional to relative velocity, so a dropship standing still will take more damage than a dropship flying away, and a dropship flying toward the missile will take more damage than a dropship standing still. (Like a head on collision doing more damage than when you hit the car in front of you.) 3) Low damage but high impact physics swarms Kinetic rather than Explosive missiles. 4) Change the after burner to not change speed but make its heat throw swarms off so they miss (increase cool down too) Basically adding flairs without a Client patch. Might as well make it an After Burner variant. 5) Link damage to altitude and remove the afterburner. Low altitude = high damage. Having trouble coming up with the physics explanation for that one. 6) Remove the afterburner but increase dropship HP 7) increase swarm damage if a dropship has its afterburner active. Make the Afterburner blow up if a swarm hits when it is active? Or backfire or something? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 250	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:57:00 - [135] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Hobo on Fire wrote: but the low end swarm launchers need a little buff. I'm thinking a reduction to the base lock on time (with balanced reduction to the operation lock-on bonus) to give entry level swarms a better DPS, while keeping wiyrkomi users where they are now. That would actually make sense. Have a Lock On time per missal, so that while the Proto Swarm with more missals does a lot more damage, the Standard Swarm would lock faster and not be as far behind on DPS. o/ Fox Tell me, have you ever danced under tank fire while trying to get a target lock? Most definitely, although I have not been using Swarms very much since the week of testing I did after 1.7. I used to enjoy dueling with LAVs in an open field back in the Murder Taxi days. A Militia Gallente Scout suit with Advanced Swarms, AV nades and REs is an interesting dance partner for a LAV... Or a HAV. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1 Appia Vibbia for CPM1
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3671	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:57:00 - [136] - Quote medomai grey wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill. Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful. We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship. Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in. (For the record, I only fly pythons. Don't know about incubus. As such, ADS opinion below only applies to pythons.) You can't simply improve swarm launcher flight speed without reducing tracking ability. Swarm launchers are only deficient in their lower tier damage. They have a flight speed that can only be outrun by using after burners and a tracking ability that makes them virtually impossible to shake. Increasing swarm launcher flight speed to the point that It could outrun a dropship with afterburners active without drastically reducing tracking ability will result in a swarm launcher that is impossible to evade. If your goal is to create a swarm launcher that can chase dropships away, you already have it. Higher tier swarm launchers deal sufficient damage to force me to run away. Lower tier swarm launchers do a negligible amount of damage were it is easy to track them down and kill them, and it shouldn't be that way. Lower tier swarm launchers need to be a threat to my ADS. Killing an ADS can be tricky because most pilots will run away when things get to hot because pythons are squishy. Judge Radamanthus made this video on this topic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxwLQAFLbJM&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ It would be logical that faster moving missiles would have a wider turning radius, so if this was the case higher speed while making them harder to outrun, would make them easier to out manoeuver. Of course where that falls short is the question of whether they will render well enough for you to see them, in order to get your timing right to out maneuver them. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 250	Posted - 2014.06.10 19:00:00 - [137] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so I'm going to put some of my early thoughts here. None of this is final and is highly dependent on your feedback * Reduce ADS price to 250,000 ISK * Swarms to 150m, Assault Swarms to 200m * Buff base dropship health a little (not ADS) * Increase swarm reserve ammo * Reduce physical impulse on Assault Swarms * Slight increase to physical impulse on Swarms * Increase Assault Swarm speed, reduce tracking and flight time. Total range will still be slightly higher. Max Rotation rate is currently 90 degrees, will try 60 first. * Increase Standard Dropship speed (140 -> 160) * Increase missiles to 6/7/8, reduce damage to compensate (165) to close gap between standard, advanced and prototype. * Reduce Assault Swarm damage (looking at 10% initially) Vehicle Armour Repairers need a big hit with a nerf bat, so I'll also look at those. However they are a much wider issue, so that might take some more time. The resistance profiles for swarms also seem a bit strange, so I'll dig into those as well. I saw someone mention afterburners increasing damage taken as a thought, and from what I can see that might be possible, but that's going into mad science territory at this stage and I haven't given it much thought yet. Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target? I'll only comment on the points that I have issues with - everything else seems reasonable... Please do NOT nerf standard swarm range - I think it should be buffed to 200m. It still takes close to a second and a half to target-lock and those vehicles are moving. Good luck getting close enough on foot in Commando suit. I still don't understand why it takes the same lock-time for a 50m target as it does for a 150m target. Longer lock times for farther targets solves this issue without nerfing range. A distant moving/flying target has a greater chance of escape; a closer stationary target, less so. Adding a weaker, 225m-250m Assault variant makes sense as does a stronger, 150m-175m Breach variant (for HAVs?). Not sure about the value of the Specialist model. I think swarm missiles should be faster than all vehicles without burners, but probably slower than those with. So make whatever corrections needed there. Increasing missile count while reducing damage per missile seems a reasonable way to flatten the damage curve from std to proto, but the bug that allows ADSs to shield regenerate throughout a missile volley impact because individual missile damage is to low needs to be corrected. Standard swarm missile smarts need to be improved some to reduce the odds of hitting inanimate things like molehills and building cross-beams - especially if the number of missiles are to be increased. HOWEVER, adding a chance variable that causes random missiles to miss their target a (very) small percentage of the time even if they run into nothing else on route seems fair and would reward pilot skill. Also, adding a target-lock warning for pilots (someone else's idea) would be a fair addition. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1 Appia Vibbia for CPM1

CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8046	Posted - 2014.06.10 19:19:00 - [138] - Quote Alright, after having dug a little further I'm likely going to start from scratch with most changes after I figure out what's going on with the resistances to swarms on the ADS. The Assault name on the Swarms is flexible. Main point is we're taking away the current assault swarms and replacing them with something else (Tactical I'm partial to, Breach I would prefer to leave for a single shot version). Idea with the new swarms is to make them faster, but also less agile so that a dropship pilot that's on the ball can better manouvre to avoid them. The standard swarms will be shorter range but higher damage, more suited for taking out ground targets. I forgot to mention I'm also looking at lowering the lock on times There's a few numbers I can play with as far as speed goes such as acceleration (linear only), initial speed and max speed. I'll be doing some testing later this week to get a feel for different variations, but feel free to make suggestions. Other things like making them shoot in a straight line for a longer period of time so you have to actually shoot them where you think the dropship is going is another thought I've had. Damage for the most part I'll stay away from increasing at Prototype (I'm happy with the numbers from standard and advanced with more missiles) for now again due to the funky resistances. As far as making sure they still interrupt shield regen, I'll have to wait till I've sorted resistances before I tweak that but I'm looking to make sure that they can do so still with one hardener (haven't decided on two yet). I'll also double check impulse to make sure we're not massively increasing it. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)

Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2187	Posted - 2014.06.10 19:21:00 - [139] - Quote Logibro. I agree that is the place to start. Fix that. Then we can move on. Judge For CPM 1 youtube Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1003	Posted - 2014.06.10 19:23:00 - [140] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, after having dug a little further I'm likely going to start from scratch with most changes after I figure out what's going on with the resistances to swarms on the ADS. The Assault name on the Swarms is flexible. Main point is we're taking away the current assault swarms and replacing them with something else (Tactical I'm partial to, Breach I would prefer to leave for a single shot version). Idea with the new swarms is to make them faster, but also less agile so that a dropship pilot that's on the ball can better manouvre to avoid them. The standard swarms will be shorter range but higher damage, more suited for taking out ground targets. I forgot to mention I'm also looking at lowering the lock on times There's a few numbers I can play with as far as speed goes such as acceleration (linear only), initial speed and max speed. I'll be doing some testing later this week to get a feel for different variations, but feel free to make suggestions. Other things like making them shoot in a straight line for a longer period of time so you have to actually shoot them where you think the dropship is going is another thought I've had. Damage for the most part I'll stay away from increasing at Prototype (I'm happy with the numbers from standard and advanced with more missiles) for now again due to the funky resistances. As far as making sure they still interrupt shield regen, I'll have to wait till I've sorted resistances before I tweak that but I'm looking to make sure that they can do so still with one hardener (haven't decided on two yet). I'll also double check impulse to make sure we're not massively increasing it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxwLQAFLbJM

Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1003	Posted - 2014.06.10 19:24:00 - [141] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, after having dug a little further I'm likely going to start from scratch with most changes after I figure out what's going on with the resistances to swarms on the ADS. The Assault name on the Swarms is flexible. Main point is we're taking away the current assault swarms and replacing them with something else (Tactical I'm partial to, Breach I would prefer to leave for a single shot version). Idea with the new swarms is to make them faster, but also less agile so that a dropship pilot that's on the ball can better manouvre to avoid them. The standard swarms will be shorter range but higher damage, more suited for taking out ground targets. I forgot to mention I'm also looking at lowering the lock on times There's a few numbers I can play with as far as speed goes such as acceleration (linear only), initial speed and max speed. I'll be doing some testing later this week to get a feel for different variations, but feel free to make suggestions. Other things like making them shoot in a straight line for a longer period of time so you have to actually shoot them where you think the dropship is going is another thought I've had. Damage for the most part I'll stay away from increasing at Prototype (I'm happy with the numbers from standard and advanced with more missiles) for now again due to the funky resistances. As far as making sure they still interrupt shield regen, I'll have to wait till I've sorted resistances before I tweak that but I'm looking to make sure that they can do so still with one hardener (haven't decided on two yet). I'll also double check impulse to make sure we're not massively increasing it. If Stanfard swarms are being buffed and their ranged removed, make it so they don't chase us for 400m.
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6031	Posted - 2014.06.10 19:25:00 - [142] - Quote Not going to lie the thought of an 8-missile swarm launcher makes me giddy.... Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 250	Posted - 2014.06.10 19:57:00 - [143] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, after having dug a little further I'm likely going to start from scratch with most changes after I figure out what's going on with the resistances to swarms on the ADS. The Assault name on the Swarms is flexible. Main point is we're taking away the current assault swarms and replacing them with something else (Tactical I'm partial to, Breach I would prefer to leave for a single shot version). Idea with the new swarms is to make them faster, but also less agile so that a dropship pilot that's on the ball can better manouvre to avoid them. The standard swarms will be shorter range but higher damage, more suited for taking out ground targets. I forgot to mention I'm also looking at lowering the lock on times There's a few numbers I can play with as far as speed goes such as acceleration (linear only), initial speed and max speed. I'll be doing some testing later this week to get a feel for different variations, but feel free to make suggestions. Other things like making them shoot in a straight line for a longer period of time so you have to actually shoot them where you think the dropship is going is another thought I've had. Damage for the most part I'll stay away from increasing at Prototype (I'm happy with the numbers from standard and advanced with more missiles) for now again due to the funky resistances. As far as making sure they still interrupt shield regen, I'll have to wait till I've sorted resistances before I tweak that but I'm looking to make sure that they can do so still with one hardener (haven't decided on two yet). I'll also double check impulse to make sure we're not massively increasing it. If you are going to make this niche weapon even more niche in optimizing it for either ground vehicles or air vehicles (which I don't agree with - is the forge gun going to become more specialized also? Those Rail Rifles are pretty good at long range and CQC) then you also need to reduce their CPU/PG requirements so we can fit better sidearms as self defence. Requiring missiles run straight for 20m-30m (while arming) seems like an interesting wrinkle. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1 Appia Vibbia for CPM1
Snake Sellors Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 94	Posted - 2014.06.10 20:13:00 - [144] - Quote wow.. you people are hilarious. you actually say that swarms are a "weapon to chase away dropships" the term "weapon" should be the clue here people. they fire missiles as in things designed to destroy vehicles. in case ccp decide that they should be for chasing away vehicles, I will point out that invariably the pilot goes away repairs and returns. if that is what it's supposed to to do then it needs to become equipment as it is designed to be unable to kill ANYTHING. "the swarm launcher requires no skill" ok it locks on and chases it's target.... the person using it has to rely on their secondary weapon in order to survive, if your not in a commando suit then that means a sidearm. they also need to get into range against either a fast moving lav, a powerful and probably equipped with hardeners tank which is more than likely looking for infantry to kill, or finding a way, on foot to close in against something that flies... after they actually achieve that they then need to lock on and fire more than once. They have to do all of this without being noticed by scouts, heavies or snipers (in my main role av people are often a high priority target.) You people seem to honestly believe that the reward for all of that work and investment of sp should be assist points at best, that their main goal is to just chase away the pilot. how are they supposed to earn war points then? "dropships are harassment vehicles" Really? ok I must be imagining things when my corp mates can get over twenty kills per round or even go tank hunting. I don't disagree with them having this ability, I just don't like to see people spout bs in order to deny other players a genuine way to play the game. onto the actual subject. I actually agree with other ideas that go along the idea of swarms for ground av/ air av, one having more power the other more range. I Completely disagree with the idea of any weapon designed to not kill anything. people don't design weapons to be a deterrent. not even things like emp, stun weapons, mace sprays etc are designed to deter, they are designed to subdue. I Agree that dropship pilots have a lot of skill involved in what they do, and should certainly not be in a situation where they can't play the game either... under no excuse should anybody ask for a weapon to obliterate a vehicle in one shot, it is a tricky thing to balance. but if the answer is to stay that swarmers can't realistically destroy vehicles then there will need to be big changes to war points and the expectation that players need to put serious sp into a weapon that fills their main slot but can't kill. sometime ago it was pointed out that swarms do not do the damage they are supposed to. my suggestion would be to buff swarms a LITTLE AND fix the swarm damage issues then afterwards if there is an imbalance do more to fix it in another hotfix, I would personally like to see changes to missile speed, range and damage, I believe that extra range to lock on will be too much for the pilots. the idea here is that when a swarmer gets within range they are a genuine threat that can't simply outrun the missles, an aware pilot can chose to leave earlier, get their squad to deal with the swarmer or run the very real risk of being killed. sorry if this seems one sided, but at the moment ads, etc can kill easily swarmers can't.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3672	Posted - 2014.06.10 21:36:00 - [145] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Hobo on Fire wrote: but the low end swarm launchers need a little buff. I'm thinking a reduction to the base lock on time (with balanced reduction to the operation lock-on bonus) to give entry level swarms a better DPS, while keeping wiyrkomi users where they are now. That would actually make sense. Have a Lock On time per missal, so that while the Proto Swarm with more missals does a lot more damage, the Standard Swarm would lock faster and not be as far behind on DPS. o/ Fox Tell me, have you ever danced under tank fire while trying to get a target lock? Most definitely, although I have not been using Swarms very much since the week of testing I did after 1.7. I used to enjoy dueling with LAVs in an open field back in the Murder Taxi days. A Militia Gallente Scout suit with Advanced Swarms, AV nades and REs is an interesting dance partner for a LAV... Or a HAV. I believe I covered that in the most recent update to my Swarm Launcher guide. Recently I have done most of my dances with LAVs in my Sentinel suit with an HMG. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Lynn Beck Heaven's Lost Property 1742	Posted - 2014.06.10 21:37:00 - [146] - Quote I'm in favor of making Breach swarms fire straight (out of the gun before missile guidance happens) for longer than normals, as that allows me to fire around boxes easier wen a tank turns tail, also standard swarms lock fine ATM, just gets genuinely screwed over when it's laggy. Assault swarms could deal 200 damage(compared to Std 220), while breach deals 250, make Breaches have a 2 shot clip, and assaults- 4. Assaults could lock at 225meters(allowing easier harassment of Ads) while breach locks at 150(?) Also worth looking at, is a way to make Standard swarms more usable against militia tanks: We could possibly lower the HP and/or damage threshold, making it easier for swarms to stop regen, or make Mlt/basic swarms shoot 5 missiles, Adv/pro shooting 6, while Proto has a minute damage increase per missile(?) Anyways, what is needed is to make Mlt Av a reliable counter to Mlt tanks, whether that is all 6 volleys to kill a Mlt tank, or to bring a base Soma to 200 armor or so for it to die to Locus/Av nades. Proto swarms also need to become a serious threat to Adv module tanks, as currently with only lv3 repair efficacy i can use trippe enhanced reps to outrep Prototype non-minmando swarms. What would the chances be that ^^ could happen? Tldr: Mlt/basic swarms need to become closer in performance to Proto swarms, which needs to be addressed in a way other than 4-5-6 per volley. Proto swarms need to become (minorly) more powerful, as suggested by me in a small damage increase over Adv(going from 220 to 230 maybe?) Assault swarms would be welcome, as long as they deal less DPvolley and fly faster/lock at longer range. Breach Swarms would be a Minmatar Commando's best friend, being able to rely on a single weapon platform to deal with higher end tanks, as compared to the (now viable) Cbr7 scout with Packed Av nades. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1641	Posted - 2014.06.10 22:01:00 - [147] - Quote medomai grey wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Either you have no idea how to hold down the L1 button and give your ship a 45 degree tilt to reach max speed, or you are lying through your teeth intentionally. I have a Python too, and with only basic modules. I can outrun swarms as long as I see them launched and there is a suitable distance between us for me to get a full tilt going for a second or two, no afterburner needed. Quit trying to exaggerate the situation. No point in even reading the rest of your post since your premise is a sham from the start. Either quit exaggerating or L2ADS, whichever suits your current situation. Also, the whole idea of swarms is for them to be smart missiles. They would't make good smart missiles if they didn't track you at least moderately well. For a faster VARIANT of swarms with a longer range (50-75m ish), loosing a chunk off the tracking ability of the missiles would be fine. Allowing a good pilot to outmaneuver missiles would not only make the longer range more balanced, it would add flavor to AV v Vehicle play. But current swarms (with perhaps 50ish meters less range than current swarms but with more damage) need their tracking to remain in order to deal with LAV's and CQC dropships/tanks. There is a difference between lying and being factually wrong, the difference being belief. To go straight to accusations of lying and calling someone a noob is pretty damn offensive. You may be right in me over exaggerating the mechanics. I'm going to have to do some testing. In the mean time, put a muzzle on your anger, relax, have a nice cup of tea. There was nothing in my post that should have warranted that much hate. I'm not demanding that swarms should have shoddy tracking ability. The current swarms have extremely good tracking ability; being able to do 180 degree turns, following you behind cover, etc. So when I said "drastically reduce their tracking ability", I meant reduce it so that it tracks ok. Although I do understand how that could be misinterpreted and that's my fault for not being clear enough. I am not proposing that swarm tracking ability be reduced across the board; only those that have their flight speed increased. I'm glad that you at least agree with the conclusion from my "sham" premise. Actually, I would like to apologize for my behavior last night. I had been drinking, had been ignored by Judge all day despite my direct comments towards his points (guess he doesn't like people critical of his last swarm video perhaps?), and RL right now is hell (I'll cut it short at that). Not making exceuses for my behavior, just saying I apologize for allowing my personal matters to turn me into such a trolly ass yesterday. Unfortunately you weren't the only target here in the forums either... v_v Cuppa sounds pretty good right about now actually Thank you for having some decency when mine took a leave of absence. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Brotherband REMNANT ENFORCERS 2	Posted - 2014.06.10 22:02:00 - [148] - Quote Atiim wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: ok then.. if it's that hard to miss make it so you have to keep aim on target.. That would easily ruin Swarm Launcher vs LAV combat. I thing dumbfire would be the better idea; It's easily possible server side by taking the Mass Driver, removing the arc, increasing projectile speed, and then putting it under the Swarm Launcher model. Do you have any Idea what dumb fire warms would be like. Imagine a carpet bombing that never ended. The matches would be decided on how many swarm launchers and nano hives were at the highest point in the map. area denial ho
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1641	Posted - 2014.06.10 22:08:00 - [149] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target? [/quote] Maybe as an alt fire mode, but not as a main variant. It's bad enough right now having a weapon that can only sometimes kill vehicles. At half damage you'd never kill one, just slow it down enough that some random forge gunner on the other side of the map or redline railgunner will snag it out of the sky. It's a nice thought, but would a) make it too easy for rails/forgers (as if it wasn't easy enough for them already...) and b) would do very little AV work for the swarmer himself. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
iliel Inner.Hell 57	Posted - 2014.06.10 22:08:00 - [150] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill. Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful. We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship. Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in. Disable squad vision for all vehicle pilots. Fixed.

Lynn Beck Heaven's Lost Property 1747	Posted - 2014.06.10 22:35:00 - [151] - Quote Brotherband wrote: Atiim wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: ok then.. if it's that hard to miss make it so you have to keep aim on target.. That would easily ruin Swarm Launcher vs LAV combat. I thing dumbfire would be the better idea; It's easily possible server side by taking the Mass Driver, removing the arc, increasing projectile speed, and then putting it under the Swarm Launcher model. Do you have any Idea what dumb fire warms would be like. Imagine a carpet bombing that never ended. The matches would be decided on how many swarm launchers and nano hives were at the highest point in the map. area denial ho 19 hp splash damage says otherwise. Seriously. As an addon: could we have it able to 'lock' at any point on the ground, and spray missiles at that locket point? Imagine waiting in ambush for a tank, and as he's about to turn, you lock the ground at the corner, hitting the tanker before he can see you: you have now made the strike before you've been seen, and it needs tactical foresight and skill. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9303	Posted - 2014.06.10 22:47:00 - [152] - Quote Brotherband wrote: Do you have any Idea what dumb fire warms would be like. Imagine a carpet bombing that never ended. The matches would be decided on how many swarm launchers and nano hives were at the highest point in the map. area denial ho As Lynn said, Swarm Launchers only have 19HP of splash damage, which would make them worse at 'Carpet Bombing' than a Breach Forge Gun or Plasma Cannon. That wouldn't be the case considering how often players players attempt to do that with a Forge Gun. Your basically holding up a Neon Picket Board saying "Snipe Me Here Please!". To reiterate, dumbfire swarms wouldn't be anymore overpowered than say, a Forge Gun (even less considering the insanely low splash damage). Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical. -HAND
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1104	Posted - 2014.06.10 23:49:00 - [153] - Quote Folks, really good discussion. One think i would offer is they at the Assault Swarm Launcher (or whatever we call it) shouldn't simply outclass the base model and we call it good. * Quick note, I'm assuming that the basic changes discussed by Logibro for the base model swarm will occur. These comments are more aimed to the variants. Tactical (or Specialist) - increased range out to approx 250, increase lock time by 25%, decrease damage by 10% Assault - keeps current range, slight decrease to initial lock time by 10%, allow for significantly increase ROF for follow on shots, decrease damage by 10%. Breach - Lowers lock range to 75m, significantly lowered tracking ability (bring it down to about 45 degrees), and approximately 30% increase in damage. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
THUNDERGROOVE The Last of DusT. 901	Posted - 2014.06.11 00:15:00 - [154] - Quote I think they're fine as is. A skilled swarm user can easily kill assault dropships that overstay their welcome and even multiple sets of militia swarms are completely able to indirectly kill an ADS by knocking it around. As Judge put it before in a recent video, swarms aren't easy to dodge after they're locked. An ADS can't just fly straight and avoid swarms, one has to do a not very easy maneuver and avoid hitting things. The only balance problems we have with dropships are due to stacked turret skills and vehicle damage mods. >Team quota reached Darnit I have to wait for one of the blueberry shit LAVs to get blown up:(
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3048	Posted - 2014.06.11 00:44:00 - [155] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: The Assault name on the Swarms is flexible. Main point is we're taking away the current assault swarms and replacing them with something else (Tactical I'm partial to, Breach I would prefer to leave for a single shot version). Idea with the new swarms is to make them faster, but also less agile so that a dropship pilot that's on the ball can better maneuver to avoid them. The standard swarms will be shorter range but higher damage, more suited for taking out ground targets. I forgot to mention I'm also looking at lowering the lock on times If you wish to reserve the breach and tactical swarm variants for other ideas but still wish to maintain this idea of adding in a longer range and less maneuverable missile. An easy solution would be to change standard swarms to your new idea while making the current standard swarms the assault variant. Something along those lines. It keeps the nomenclature consistent while still implementing the ideas. Just a thought at least.
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1003	Posted - 2014.06.11 00:54:00 - [156] - Quote Snake Sellors wrote: wow.. you people are hilarious. you actually say that swarms are a "weapon to chase away dropships" the term "weapon" should be the clue here people. they fire missiles as in things designed to destroy vehicles. in case ccp decide that they should be for chasing away vehicles, I will point out that invariably the pilot goes away repairs and returns. if that is what it's supposed to to do then it needs to become equipment as it is designed to be unable to kill ANYTHING. "the swarm launcher requires no skill" ok it locks on and chases it's target.... the person using it has to rely on their secondary weapon in order to survive, if your not in a commando suit then that means a sidearm. they also need to get into range against either a fast moving lav, a powerful and probably equipped with hardeners tank which is more than likely looking for infantry to kill, or finding a way, on foot to close in against something that flies... after they actually achieve that they then need to lock on and fire more than once. They have to do all of this without being noticed by scouts, heavies or snipers (in my main role av people are often a high priority target.) You people seem to honestly believe that the reward for all of that work and investment of sp should be assist points at best, that their main goal is to just chase away the pilot. how are they supposed to earn war points then? "dropships are harassment vehicles" Really? ok I must be imagining things when my corp mates can get over twenty kills per round or even go tank hunting. I don't disagree with them having this ability, I just don't like to see people spout bs in order to deny other players a genuine way to play the game. onto the actual subject. I actually agree with other ideas that go along the idea of swarms for ground av/ air av, one having more power the other more range. I Completely disagree with the idea of any weapon designed to not kill anything. people don't design weapons to be a deterrent. not even things like emp, stun weapons, mace sprays etc are not designed to deter, they are designed to subdue. I Agree that dropship pilots have a lot of skill involved in what they do, and should certainly not be in a situation where they can't play the game either... under no excuse should anybody ask for a weapon to obliterate a vehicle in one shot, it is a tricky thing to balance. but if the answer is to stay that swarmers can't realistically destroy vehicles then there will need to be big changes to war points and the expectation that players need to put serious sp into a weapon that fills their main slot but can't kill. sometime ago it was pointed out that swarms do not do the damage they are supposed to. my suggestion would be to buff swarms a LITTLE AND fix the swarm damage issues then afterwards if there is an imbalance do more to fix it in another hotfix, I would personally like to see changes to missile speed, range and damage, I believe that extra range to lock on will be too much for the pilots. the idea here is that when a swarmer gets within range they are a genuine threat that can't simply outrun the missles, an aware pilot can chose to leave earlier, get their squad to deal with the swarmer or run the very real risk of being killed. sorry if this seems one sided, but at the moment ads, etc can kill easily swarmers can't. ishukone assault SMG is one of the best guns in the game... I deals equivalent damage to proto type assault CR, actually more and has more per clip... Have you not tried the Cathum Scrambler pistol, it also works wonders.
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9305	Posted - 2014.06.11 00:58:00 - [157] - Quote Still doesn't change the fact that the Swarm Launcher has no use against infantry, while other AV items such as the Forge Gun, Plasma Cannon, and Remote Explosive do. Sidearms/Secondary Weapons are irrelevant when discussing AV weapons in the same sense that the Dropsuit being used inside a vehicle is irrelevant when referring to vehicles. Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical. -HAND
B-F M Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 6	Posted - 2014.06.11 01:00:00 - [158] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I am going to tackle the question specifically in a new video,. But If you have not really fought swarms in a dropship watch this overview video of what it is like from and ADS view and why swarms often fail. It is 17 minutes long but shows some of the issues we face. I will, as I said, make a more detailed and specific responce for CCP and post it here too. That way we can talk about facts, not myth. Comparison of what we look like to each other at 85 meters. Example of rendering issue Note the "damage mod active" message is a bug. It sometimes sticks to the swarm after you die fighting a tank with a damage mod on, which happend to me in that battle Outstanding work. I'm a dedicated AV player (commando/swarms) and I learned a few things there. Excellent analysis.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1105	Posted - 2014.06.11 01:20:00 - [159] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: I think they're fine as is. A skilled swarm user can easily kill assault dropships that overstay their welcome and even multiple sets of militia swarms are completely able to indirectly kill an ADS by knocking it around. As Judge put it before in a recent video, swarms aren't easy to dodge after they're locked. An ADS can't just fly straight and avoid swarms, one has to do a not very easy maneuver and avoid hitting things. The only balance problems we have with dropships are due to stacked turret skills and vehicle damage mods. Totally disagree with this. If we could easily kill ADS with swarms we wouldn't be having this discussion. Swarm lock (really missile tracking) does need to be toned down, however, it is actually pretty easy to outrun swarms. I've seen it done countless times and it pretty much entails them aligning and hitting the jets. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1644	Posted - 2014.06.11 01:35:00 - [160] - Quote One further idea I've been mulling over, which would help narrow the gap between STD/ADV/PRO so you can focus more closely on damage.range.tracking issues. Make STD/ADV/PRO swarms all fire the same number of missiles but increase the lock on speed and clip size as the tiers go up. Possibly capacity too, but I won't push that. Example: Say all swarm launchers fire 4 missiles and all missiles do the same amount of damage across all tiers (as they do now). Say the STD swarm launcher has a 2 second lock-on time with missile volleys 4 in a clip. You then make the ADV swarms have a 1.4 second lock-on time with 5 volleys in the clip. And then you make the PRO swarms have a 0.8 second lock-on time with volleys 6 in the clip. This effectively increases the DPS of higher tiered swarms without adding more missiles per volley. And it also rewards you for running a gimped suit with only a side arm for personal defense by reducing your need to reload as the tier of your weapon goes up. (not actual suggested numbers, just the first numbers to spring to mind) This would allow you to balance swarms tiers and swarm DPS without increasing the damage of the swarm volley's, just increasing the swarms volley output potential. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1

Silas Swakhammer GamersForChrist 426	Posted - 2014.06.11 02:36:00 - [161] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: Pythons are fine vs av. I have a pro fit, and 1 good swarmer can chase me off with a 1 round hitting me, and running from the other 1-2 rnds he got off, even if they only chase me off for a limited amount of time. They are where they need to be. . . . Now my incubus on the other hand, I can put 2 basic heavy reps on that sucker, and tank 1 normal swarm guy all day long. Forges, if they're more than 1 of them, or a swarm launcher with a fg helping, can turn me away quickly. And while using my swarm launcher, i can launch a volley of 3 shots, and by the time i've reloaded, generally they're back to full health, glaring at me, I can almost hear them asking, why for you shoot me? (same with the repper maddies) I normally die after my first volley . :) Maybe this leads back to the stacked armor repairs being op by being able to tank av, or people not willing to spec fully into an av weapon, and use teamwork to counter something. I go for the latter. The dark cloud wrote: This is all nice but there is still a huge issue with armor based dropships. They currently only take 55% damage from swarms. That means when i put only a single basic heavy rep on a armor dropship it becomes literally imune vs. swarm launchers. That needs to be brought in line with shield dropships which take proper damage. Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: With a Minmatar commando, proto swarms vs python is usually a pretty fair trade off. A single swarmer won't kill that python if he isn't dumb but you do enough damage that he needs to run away if he values his ship. If a python hangs out long enough for you to reload he will be dead. Incubus however are a much bigger problem. They will just sit there, tank, and rep through your swarms laughing at you. It takes 2 swarmers just to suppress an incubus like you would a python. This is more of a problem of vehicle armor repair mods rather than swarms themselves though. This is the central issue. My swarms are balanced against shield based dropships, but a properly fitted armor dropship renders swarms entirely ineffective. Pineapples on pizza.
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 257	Posted - 2014.06.11 03:30:00 - [162] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: AV damage resistance: It has been stated several times in this thread that certain (Gallente) dropships experience reduced damage from Swarm Launchers. This is a problem because on the one hand the damage reduction is to great, and on the other hand because it is not applied to all dropships. However, if the damage reduction could be adjusted it could be a useful tool in AV balance. We could balance AV against HAVGÇÖs, and then use the AV damage resistance of dropships to balance them against the AV that has been balanced against HAVGÇÖs. It would have to be applied to all dropships though. Swarm Launchers: - I think that Swarm Damage should be adjusted to 250 per missile. - I think that lock time on Swarm Launchers should be applied per missile, so that Lock time increases with each additional missile, just as Damage increases as you move from Militia/Standard, to Proto. The balance of Time to Damage should be such that the increase in DPS from Militia/Standard, to Proto should be comparable to the increase in DPS of Standard Forge Guns to Proto Forge Guns. One of the challenges of balancing the Swarm Launcher has always been that making the Proto Swarm Launcher balanced meant that the Standard Swarm Launcher became completely ineffective, and balancing the Standard Swarm Launcher made the Proto version OP. This change would salve that problem, without getting ride of the unique damage per missile setup which makes Swarm Launchers unique. Proto Swarms would still have much higher Alpha, but the difference in DPS would not be as extreme. Missile Speed: Judge Rhadamanthus has explained that the first indication a Dropship pilot often has that there is a Swarm Launcher targeting them is when the first Swarm hits, and by that time there is already more swarms in the air. It occurs to me that if Swarm Missiles moved fast enough, the first Swarm would hit while the Swarm Launcher was still trying to acquire its second lock. So faster swarms would actually give Dropship pilots more time to react. On the other hand it would be harder to get away from the Swarms once they are in the air. So when looking at it that way, would faster missiles be better or worse? From a Dropship pilot perspective? From an AV perspective? New proto swarms damage = 250 x 8 missiles ... SWEET! My ultra light AV kit is gonna need a wheel barrow to lug that thing around. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1 Appia Vibbia for CPM1
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 257	Posted - 2014.06.11 03:38:00 - [163] - Quote -snip- o/ Fox Tell me, have you ever danced under tank fire while trying to get a target lock?[/quote] Most definitely, although I have not been using Swarms very much since the week of testing I did after 1.7. I used to enjoy dueling with LAVs in an open field back in the Murder Taxi days.[/quote] A Militia Gallente Scout suit with Advanced Swarms, AV nades and REs is an interesting dance partner for a LAV... Or a HAV. [/quote] I believe I covered that in the most recent update to my Swarm Launcher guide. Recently I have done most of my dances with LAVs in my Sentinel suit with an HMG.[/quote] In a Sentinel suit? Must have been a waltz... Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1 Appia Vibbia for CPM1
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 743	Posted - 2014.06.11 05:00:00 - [164] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so I'm going to put some of my early thoughts here. None of this is final and is highly dependent on your feedback * Reduce ADS price to 250,000 ISK * Swarms to 150m, Assault Swarms to 200m * Buff base dropship health a little (not ADS) * Increase swarm reserve ammo * Reduce physical impulse on Assault Swarms * Slight increase to physical impulse on Swarms * Increase Assault Swarm speed, reduce tracking and flight time. Total range will still be slightly higher. Max Rotation rate is currently 90 degrees, will try 60 first. * Increase Standard Dropship speed (140 -> 160) * Increase missiles to 6/7/8, reduce damage to compensate (165) to close gap between standard, advanced and prototype. * Reduce Assault Swarm damage (looking at 10% initially) Vehicle Armour Repairers need a big hit with a nerf bat, so I'll also look at those. However they are a much wider issue, so that might take some more time. The resistance profiles for swarms also seem a bit strange, so I'll dig into those as well. I saw someone mention afterburners increasing damage taken as a thought, and from what I can see that might be possible, but that's going into mad science territory at this stage and I haven't given it much thought yet. Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target? 1) A standard basic dropship is 45k and you want to cut the price of the ADS specialization of dropships from being 7x, down to smaller, but still enormous number like 5.5x. Though it is a nice change, its not enough. Vehicle specializations should be at most 50% more expensive and they need to have have of enough downsides in addition to their specialization. Related thread about that here. Assault dropships should be like 70k, but be glass cannons; they have bonuses to increase their firepower, but they should be easy to take down as a tradeoff. Right now, they are just complete upgrades over basic dropships. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
Kratek Heshan United Colonial Empire Army Freek Alliance 59	Posted - 2014.06.11 05:12:00 - [165] - Quote increase the galdari dropships hp is tooo weakkk 2 hits its down but the gallente dropship can take 4 to 5 hits
JP Acuna Pendejitos Zero-Day 180	Posted - 2014.06.11 05:31:00 - [166] - Quote The way i see it: swarms are very uneffective destroying ADSs when soloing them, but are excellent for suppression because they make it impossible to aim at something when shaking the ship with every rocket landed, or even make it crash. They're also excellent when used as support or are supported by a FG or a railgun tank. Plenty of times i've been getting hit by swarms without much concern, but when i start getting forged or hit by a tank, it is the swarms that finally finish my ship when i'm getting away. Also when more than one swarmer are attacking me, i just go because it gets ugly (one proto swarmer is also very dissuasive). Now if we compare Swarms to Plasma Cannons... You can't solo any vehicle with a PLC unless it's a very poor pilot, fit, or you're just lucky. You will need at least AV nades, REs, otherwise you'll serve as mere support at best. Why should swarms be any better? They're already easy to use and land hits. Currently they're pretty much suppresive weapons, but i think that's fine when dropships have to deal with so many threats. Maybe a travel speed increase would be OK. EDIT: Oh, and buff the ammo count too.
Lynn Beck Heaven's Lost Property 1756	Posted - 2014.06.11 06:33:00 - [167] - Quote Against actually competent(or plated) dropships, swarms do NOT deteriorate the enemy's aiming ability. Also we need to remove the 55% resist on armor DS. As for Baal's idea, the only thing i don't like about differentiating Std to Pro swarms via Lock times is, you would end up having to relearn the weapon every time you switch from Adv to pro. I'm in favor for normalizing missile count though, along with maybe the clipsize increase by tier.(please don't pull a Flaylock, and give it varying amounts of Max Ammo per tier, just straight up double the ammo.) Still wanting Breach Swarms, which deal bonus Dmg per missile, but fly slower/track less. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 744	Posted - 2014.06.11 07:40:00 - [168] - Quote What about plasma cannons? Sure the buff to direct hit damage is useful, but its only useful if you can land the shot with the very slow moving projectile it shoots out. Can you increase the speed of the plasma cannon? If it becomes too easy to use, you could just increase how much it arches for it to still be a skillshot weapon. Can the breach mass driver also get increased efficacy against vehicles too? Aeon Amadi wrote: Not going to lie the thought of an 8-missile swarm launcher makes me giddy.... I agree, this would really make them live up to the name "swarm" launchers. Lynn Beck wrote: Brotherband wrote: Atiim wrote: ... I thing dumbfire would be the better idea; It's easily possible server side by taking the Mass Driver, removing the arc, increasing projectile speed, and then putting it under the Swarm Launcher model. Do you have any Idea what dumb fire warms would be like. Imagine a carpet bombing that never ended. The matches would be decided on how many swarm launchers and nano hives were at the highest point in the map. area denial ho 19 hp splash damage says otherwise. Seriously. As an addon: could we have it able to 'lock' at any point on the ground, and spray missiles at that locket point? Imagine waiting in ambush for a tank, and as he's about to turn, you lock the ground at the corner, hitting the tanker before he can see you: you have now made the strike before you've been seen, and it needs tactical foresight and skill. I would very much like to see this happening on the battlefield. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 744	Posted - 2014.06.11 07:47:00 - [169] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: As it turns out, I found a bug that means the Forge Gun and Swarm weren't getting their proficiency skill bonuses against vehicle armour on HAVs and Dropships. I think I'll look at fixing that. While your at it, can you also fix the damage profiles of railgun turrets? They currently do +10% damage against shields and -10% damage against armor, when they should do the opposite. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621

CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8066	Posted - 2014.06.11 08:47:00 - [170] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: As it turns out, I found a bug that means the Forge Gun and Swarm weren't getting their proficiency skill bonuses against vehicle armour on HAVs and Dropships. I think I'll look at fixing that. While your at it, can you also fix the damage profiles of railgun turrets? They currently do +10% damage against shields and -10% damage against armor, when they should do the opposite. I'll look into it. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)


Beld Errmon 1669	Posted - 2014.06.11 10:36:00 - [171] - Quote Ah incoming overbuff with a rollback in a month or two, the AV-vehicle cycle goes on. Pilot - Tanker - FOTM (insert here)
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 747	Posted - 2014.06.11 12:15:00 - [172] - Quote Beld Errmon wrote: Ah incoming overbuff with a rollback in a month or two, the AV-vehicle cycle goes on. Its not gonna be that bad and it they can just keep tweaking it till its perfect. The new management actually plays this game, has open discussions with the community, shows numbers beforehand, responds to feedback, and they seem to actually test stuff before deploying them. I rather have this than nothing. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Mercenaries 551	Posted - 2014.06.11 13:08:00 - [173] - Quote Lowering the damage of Swarm missiles, and adding more rockets seems like a nerf to me. Now more of my missiles have to hit to do the same damage as before. Swarms may be "smart" with the lock-on, but they are dumb as hell when it comes to tiny hills and buildings. Swarms are already terrible anywhere but out in the open, and this makes them even worse imho. Melee Weapon of Choice: Nokia-3310 Prof. V
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 39	Posted - 2014.06.11 14:29:00 - [174] - Quote gallente dropship can do the madruger and tank fairly well vs 1 swarmer Minmatar Logibro in training. Rusty needles anyone? No Mic and no time for "Squeekers" Nerf scout cloak+shotgun
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1649	Posted - 2014.06.11 14:30:00 - [175] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Lowering the damage of Swarm missiles, and adding more rockets seems like a nerf to me. Now more of my missiles have to hit to do the same damage as before. Swarms may be "smart" with the lock-on, but they are dumb as hell when it comes to tiny hills and buildings. Swarms are already terrible anywhere but out in the open, and this makes them even worse imho. Not to mention we already have issues with rendering/latency where swarms disappear and even an issue where they don't always all fire properly. Wouldn't more missiles cause more issues? PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1009	Posted - 2014.06.11 15:15:00 - [176] - Quote Atiim wrote: Still doesn't change the fact that the Swarm Launcher has no use against infantry, while other AV items such as the Forge Gun, Plasma Cannon, and Remote Explosive do. Sidearms/Secondary Weapons are irrelevant when discussing AV weapons in the same sense that the Dropsuit being used inside a vehicle is irrelevant when referring to vehicles. A swarm launcher is a light weapon and that's already enough. You can run so do so. Stop armor plate tanking like a bch... And your point is? Flaylock is pointless against infantry, FG is pretty pointless close up, Plasma Cannon is gonna get you killed cuz of reload unless you have like unheard of accuracy. Nova knives are pointless when caught at a distant of like 5+ meters. Just because a weapon is useless against infantry doesn't mean the dropsuit is. I run exclusively with Ishukone assault SMG on many of my scouts. It's better than CR in my opinion. If you are useless with an SMG, that's your problem.
Thang Bausch Pierrot Le Fou Industries 167	Posted - 2014.06.11 17:01:00 - [177] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill. Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful. We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship. Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in. Most dropship's ability to tank damage isn't an issue for me personally since I've had proficiency 5 swarms since Uprising 1.0, but anyone with even slightly less damage output than I do must be going crazy over it. Except for the absolute best of ADS ships, I can keep DPS up on them enough to kill them if they are around long enough. I'm actually thinking you should increase the DS's resistance to rails since rail sniping them out of the air is ridiculously easy (I've been testing out both ADS's this week). As far as swarm balance goes: Regular swarms need to have a beefier hit to them. If these are to be the CQC swarms, they need more damage and more in a clip, perhaps with a slight (SLIGHT!) lock-on and flight range drop to make room for: The assault swarms need to have slightly less damage than current swarms, but with more lock-on and flight range and a much faster missile. ~Swarmer Since Replication I know talking about SL vs Tanks is technically out of scope for this discussion, but I think it really needs to be discussed if they are considering rejiggin the assault swarm for anit-DS specialization. What you proposed here is similar to what I've been thinking about over the last week. Create two variants based off the current swarms: 1. More damage but keep everything else the same. If lock and flight range were reduced, then I would want an extra round in the clip. 2. Longer lock on range and speed, but the same damage (or maybe a little less damage) (In the end, I think any changes they make here will likely need a second round of tweaking after a few months of play testing.) What I like here is that I can still use both against either DS or tank but more effectively on one of them and less effectively on the other. I currently run my SL on min commando fit with a CR. I might be tempted under the right situation (e.g. good team of people that will cover my back, lots of vehicles but no one running AV, etc) to run both types on my minmando. Being able to throw a round of slow heavy hitting missiles into a low flying DS and then switch to the fast SL to finish it off while it runs away would make up for being completely vulnerable to infantry.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1114	Posted - 2014.06.11 18:08:00 - [178] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Assault swarms should be fast, short range missiles. ADS only counter to swarms is to outrun them. That's the thing people don't understand about fire and forget weapons. The less effort needed to use, the less reward. So make assault swarm missiles move as fast as installation missiles, but they only fly up to 300m. This can be said to be because they have been modified to burn the fuel faster, giving increased speed but drastically lower flight time, on account of running out of fuel far faster. This is balanced, because an ADS can stil use speed to escape these swarms. But rather than escaping the swarms by moving faster than them, he escapes by outranging them faster. Meaning an assault swarm can apply its DPS easier than now, at the cost of being outranged far quicker. There should be a tradeoff over the normal swarm launcher for using the assault, and missile max range is a good place for it. Especially considering assault generally means higher DPS, less range (with a few aberrant exceptions, like the SMG, which need fixing.) Along these same lines as Alena is saying. Logibro, please strive to be more consistent with the current nomenclature in the game. All light weapon assault variants are shorter range and higher rate of fire. Your proposed longer range and slower missile variant would better fall under either the breach or tactical variant name. As Rattati has been trying to fix with the AR. The idea of a slower and short range variant is fundamentally bad design and Rattati has already proposed reworking the Breach Plasma Rifle into a longer range weapon than the Assault Plasma rifle, which is good. This should be translating to sidearms and AV, try to make it so: Assault Variant should be high damage and short range Breach should be higher damage at slightly longer range at the expense of missile velocity Tactical should be lower damage but very long range. Very basic kind of spreadsheet here with 'proposed ideas'. Numbers are likely unbalanced but just for general idea. Swarm Launcher variants 'proposal' I like your idea, Zdub. I do recommend taking a look at the tactical variant having increased missile speed. If you are locking at long rang but don't increase the missile velocity the DS will be able to move out of range before you can get your next volley off. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen

CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8079	Posted - 2014.06.11 18:09:00 - [179] - Quote Alright, so here's the plan. First things first: We're going ahead with the missile number change for the swarm launcher. You can see them at the bottom of this sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dRIiqkQK4S1_NmisVxjvaBgrEtMcX-D8qz0cR4d_fV4/edit#gid=1310924977 Second: We're reducing the cost of ADS to 250,000ISK Third: We're changing the efficiency of swarm launchers to dropships from a flat 55% on shield and armour to standard resistances (80% for shields, 120%). We're also correcting the efficiency on their thrusters (their weak point) which will now also be changed to standard (100% for shields, 150% for armour) Fourth: We're looking at lowering the minimum threshold to interrupt shield recharge from 102 to 80. Fifth: While technically not a design change, we're fixing the proficiency skill for any weapon that is armour bonused not working against vehicles. This includes both swarms and forge guns. Due to the massive change that number three is bringing, I won't want to make any further changes until I see how it evens out. If dropships start falling from the sky too quickly, we can look at lowering swarm efficiency against dropships again. If it seems to be fine, then we can look at making some swarm variants and further tweaks to the base swarm launcher (EM Swarm Launcher bonused by Amarr Commandos anyone?) CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)

Lynn Beck Heaven's Lost Property 1762	Posted - 2014.06.11 18:24:00 - [180] - Quote Logi i love you. I don't see any problems with the resist changes, as this puts Gallente on even grounds with Caldari. Funny thing worth noting: Caldari Dropships, when Shields are broken, take FULL damage from all light weapons, as demonstrated by me Thaling a python for my first Thale's kill ever. Also Pythons are killed woefully fast by Combat Rifles/Hmg's, along with even Shotgun Fire(lol @ that one) General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!

bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 260	Posted - 2014.06.11 18:25:00 - [181] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Atiim wrote: Still doesn't change the fact that the Swarm Launcher has no use against infantry, while other AV items such as the Forge Gun, Plasma Cannon, and Remote Explosive do. Sidearms/Secondary Weapons are irrelevant when discussing AV weapons in the same sense that the Dropsuit being used inside a vehicle is irrelevant when referring to vehicles. A swarm launcher is a light weapon and that's already enough. You can run so do so. Stop armor plate tanking like a bch... And your point is? Flaylock is pointless against infantry, FG is pretty pointless close up, Plasma Cannon is gonna get you killed cuz of reload unless you have like unheard of accuracy. Nova knives are pointless when caught at a distant of like 5+ meters. Just because a weapon is useless against infantry doesn't mean the dropsuit is. I run exclusively with Ishukone assault SMG on many of my scouts. It's better than CR in my opinion. If you are useless with an SMG, that's your problem. I think you are making an assumption and missing the point... As a fan of both my proto swarms and my proto SMGs, there are not a lot of suit options where they can both fit and be fast enough that the SMG would be practical as a primary infantry weapon. Sure, they both fit on a Minmando, but it's not that fast and has a high scan sig. I don't know if they could both fit on a proto Scout suit as I'm not levelled that high yet. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1 Appia Vibbia for CPM1
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2014.06.11 18:27:00 - [182] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so here's the plan. First things first: We're going ahead with the missile number change for the swarm launcher. You can see them at the bottom of this sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dRIiqkQK4S1_NmisVxjvaBgrEtMcX-D8qz0cR4d_fV4/edit#gid=1310924977 Second: We're reducing the cost of ADS to 250,000ISK Third: We're changing the efficiency of swarm launchers to dropships from a flat 55% on shield and armour to standard resistances (80% for shields, 120%). We're also correcting the efficiency on their thrusters (their weak point) which will now also be changed to standard (100% for shields, 150% for armour) Fourth: We're looking at lowering the minimum threshold to interrupt shield recharge from 102 to 80. Fifth: While technically not a design change, we're fixing the proficiency skill for any weapon that is armour bonused not working against vehicles. This includes both swarms and forge guns. Due to the massive change that number three is bringing, I won't want to make any further changes until I see how it evens out. If dropships start falling from the sky too quickly, we can look at lowering swarm efficiency against dropships again. If it seems to be fine, then we can look at making some swarm variants and further tweaks to the base swarm launcher (EM Swarm Launcher bonused by Amarr Commandos anyone?) Threshold change just killed it With a complex hardener vs a std swarm shields need to regen, unless you buff python hp to 1700 base or something like that. Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1319	Posted - 2014.06.11 18:52:00 - [183] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so here's the plan. First things first: We're going ahead with the missile number change for the swarm launcher. You can see them at the bottom of this sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dRIiqkQK4S1_NmisVxjvaBgrEtMcX-D8qz0cR4d_fV4/edit#gid=1310924977 Second: We're reducing the cost of ADS to 250,000ISK Third: We're changing the efficiency of swarm launchers to dropships from a flat 55% on shield and armour to standard resistances (80% for shields, 120%). We're also correcting the efficiency on their thrusters (their weak point) which will now also be changed to standard (100% for shields, 150% for armour) Fourth: We're looking at lowering the minimum threshold to interrupt shield recharge from 102 to 80. Fifth: While technically not a design change, we're fixing the proficiency skill for any weapon that is armour bonused not working against vehicles. This includes both swarms and forge guns. Due to the massive change that number three is bringing, I won't want to make any further changes until I see how it evens out. If dropships start falling from the sky too quickly, we can look at lowering swarm efficiency against dropships again. If it seems to be fine, then we can look at making some swarm variants and further tweaks to the base swarm launcher (EM Swarm Launcher bonused by Amarr Commandos anyone?) There are not enough likes to give if we get EM missiles xD Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1010	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:07:00 - [184] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so here's the plan. First things first: We're going ahead with the missile number change for the swarm launcher. You can see them at the bottom of this sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dRIiqkQK4S1_NmisVxjvaBgrEtMcX-D8qz0cR4d_fV4/edit#gid=1310924977 Second: We're reducing the cost of ADS to 250,000ISK Third: We're changing the efficiency of swarm launchers to dropships from a flat 55% on shield and armour to standard resistances (80% for shields, 120%). We're also correcting the efficiency on their thrusters (their weak point) which will now also be changed to standard (100% for shields, 150% for armour) Fourth: We're looking at lowering the minimum threshold to interrupt shield recharge from 102 to 80. Fifth: While technically not a design change, we're fixing the proficiency skill for any weapon that is armour bonused not working against vehicles. This includes both swarms and forge guns. Due to the massive change that number three is bringing, I won't want to make any further changes until I see how it evens out. If dropships start falling from the sky too quickly, we can look at lowering swarm efficiency against dropships again. If it seems to be fine, then we can look at making some swarm variants and further tweaks to the base swarm launcher (EM Swarm Launcher bonused by Amarr Commandos anyone?) good job, you fked up dropships espeically shield who will now be three swamred by proto swarms. Thank you CCP, that's just what we needed, a python made of air instead of paper.
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1010	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:08:00 - [185] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Atiim wrote: Still doesn't change the fact that the Swarm Launcher has no use against infantry, while other AV items such as the Forge Gun, Plasma Cannon, and Remote Explosive do. Sidearms/Secondary Weapons are irrelevant when discussing AV weapons in the same sense that the Dropsuit being used inside a vehicle is irrelevant when referring to vehicles. A swarm launcher is a light weapon and that's already enough. You can run so do so. Stop armor plate tanking like a bch... And your point is? Flaylock is pointless against infantry, FG is pretty pointless close up, Plasma Cannon is gonna get you killed cuz of reload unless you have like unheard of accuracy. Nova knives are pointless when caught at a distant of like 5+ meters. Just because a weapon is useless against infantry doesn't mean the dropsuit is. I run exclusively with Ishukone assault SMG on many of my scouts. It's better than CR in my opinion. If you are useless with an SMG, that's your problem. I think you are making an assumption and missing the point... As a fan of both my proto swarms and my proto SMGs, there are not a lot of suit options where they can both fit and be fast enough that the SMG would be practical as a primary infantry weapon. Sure, they both fit on a Minmando, but it's not that fast and has a high scan sig. I don't know if they could both fit on a proto Scout suit as I'm not levelled that high yet. Proto scout has a lot of fitting space except for the minmitar..
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9340	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:15:00 - [186] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: good job, you fked up dropships espeically shield who will now be three swamred by proto swarms. Thank you CCP, that's just what we needed, a python made of air instead of paper. Ironically, the Python would still have a higher TTK than the Swarm Launcher user. Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical. -HAND
lithkul devant Legions of Infinite Dominion Zero-Day 242	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:18:00 - [187] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so here's the plan. First things first: We're going ahead with the missile number change for the swarm launcher. You can see them at the bottom of this sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dRIiqkQK4S1_NmisVxjvaBgrEtMcX-D8qz0cR4d_fV4/edit#gid=1310924977 Second: We're reducing the cost of ADS to 250,000ISK Third: We're changing the efficiency of swarm launchers to dropships from a flat 55% on shield and armour to standard resistances (80% for shields, 120%). We're also correcting the efficiency on their thrusters (their weak point) which will now also be changed to standard (100% for shields, 150% for armour) Fourth: We're looking at lowering the minimum threshold to interrupt shield recharge from 102 to 80. Fifth: While technically not a design change, we're fixing the proficiency skill for any weapon that is armour bonused not working against vehicles. This includes both swarms and forge guns. Due to the massive change that number three is bringing, I won't want to make any further changes until I see how it evens out. If dropships start falling from the sky too quickly, we can look at lowering swarm efficiency against dropships again. If it seems to be fine, then we can look at making some swarm variants and further tweaks to the base swarm launcher (EM Swarm Launcher bonused by Amarr Commandos anyone?) I hate dropships as much as the guy next to me, and mind you it will be fun blowing them out of the sky, but I do hope you will be adjusting the Ehp on the ADS with the other dropships so that they are not complete paper tigers. Yes I fully agree with the adjustments in armor resistance and shield resistance and the change to the damage threshold. I however, will suggest that Ehp on dropships will need to be modified in order to well survive since Dropships and ADS are known for having low armor and shield, what kept them alive so well (OP as they were) was all the things that were botched when dealing with them. I hope you change the numbers of Ehp on them first before deciding to mess to much with the resistances or bonuses against dropships.
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1010	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:34:00 - [188] - Quote lithkul devant wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so here's the plan. First things first: We're going ahead with the missile number change for the swarm launcher. You can see them at the bottom of this sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dRIiqkQK4S1_NmisVxjvaBgrEtMcX-D8qz0cR4d_fV4/edit#gid=1310924977 Second: We're reducing the cost of ADS to 250,000ISK Third: We're changing the efficiency of swarm launchers to dropships from a flat 55% on shield and armour to standard resistances (80% for shields, 120%). We're also correcting the efficiency on their thrusters (their weak point) which will now also be changed to standard (100% for shields, 150% for armour) Fourth: We're looking at lowering the minimum threshold to interrupt shield recharge from 102 to 80. Fifth: While technically not a design change, we're fixing the proficiency skill for any weapon that is armour bonused not working against vehicles. This includes both swarms and forge guns. Due to the massive change that number three is bringing, I won't want to make any further changes until I see how it evens out. If dropships start falling from the sky too quickly, we can look at lowering swarm efficiency against dropships again. If it seems to be fine, then we can look at making some swarm variants and further tweaks to the base swarm launcher (EM Swarm Launcher bonused by Amarr Commandos anyone?) I hate dropships as much as the guy next to me, and mind you it will be fun blowing them out of the sky, but I do hope you will be adjusting the Ehp on the ADS with the other dropships so that they are not complete paper tigers. Yes I fully agree with the adjustments in armor resistance and shield resistance and the change to the damage threshold. I however, will suggest that Ehp on dropships will need to be modified in order to well survive since Dropships and ADS are known for having low armor and shield, what kept them alive so well (OP as they were) was all the things that were botched when dealing with them. I hope you change the numbers of Ehp on them first before deciding to mess to much with the resistances or bonuses against dropships. It's no point, swarm community out numbers us 10 to 1 and outnumbers python users 100-1.
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9342	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:36:00 - [189] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: A swarm launcher is a light weapon and that's already enough. You can run so do so. Stop armor plate tanking like a bch... And your point is? Flaylock is pointless against infantry, FG is pretty pointless close up, Plasma Cannon is gonna get you killed cuz of reload unless you have like unheard of accuracy. Nova knives are pointless when caught at a distant of like 5+ meters. The point is that to survive against a competent infantry player, you need to be highly skilled as your weapon does literally nothing against infantry. While those weapons may be relatively useless (due to being able to theoretically kill infantry), the Swarm Launcher is completely useless against infantry. Sir Dukey wrote: Just because a weapon is useless against infantry doesn't mean the dropsuit is. I run exclusively with Ishukone assault SMG on many of my scouts. It's better than CR in my opinion. If you are useless with an SMG, that's your problem. So then we could also make vehicles [completely] useless against infantry simply due to the fact that pilots can use other gear -besides their vehicle- to destroy the AVer? I mean after all, while the vehicle may be useless, but that doesn't mean the player is... right? Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical. -HAND
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9342	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:36:00 - [190] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: It's no point, swarm community out numbers us 10 to 1 and outnumbers python users 100-1. Source? Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical. -HAND

Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1010	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:38:00 - [191] - Quote Atiim wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: good job, you fked up dropships espeically shield who will now be three swamred by proto swarms. Thank you CCP, that's just what we needed, a python made of air instead of paper. Ironically, the Python would still have a higher TTK than the Swarm Launcher user. Go fly a python and tell me if you get over 10 kills, you're such a scrub. You know nothing but and only root for the sh*t you put SP in. I am glad swarms are getting buffed, incubus were impossible to kill with swarm, great, but you forgot that this buff throws off Python balance by like a lot. Also did I forget to mention that to fly a python and actually kill, you don't just lock on to your targets while being invisible? A swarmer is invisible to a ADS pilot from 80 meters? Did you know swarms knock ADS's upside down? Oh wait, what do you know, you don't fly.
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1014	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:40:00 - [192] - Quote Atiim wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: A swarm launcher is a light weapon and that's already enough. You can run so do so. Stop armor plate tanking like a bch... And your point is? Flaylock is pointless against infantry, FG is pretty pointless close up, Plasma Cannon is gonna get you killed cuz of reload unless you have like unheard of accuracy. Nova knives are pointless when caught at a distant of like 5+ meters. The point is that to survive against a competent infantry player, you need to be highly skilled as your weapon does literally nothing against infantry. While those weapons may be relatively useless (due to being able to theoretically kill infantry), the Swarm Launcher is completely useless against infantry. Sir Dukey wrote: Just because a weapon is useless against infantry doesn't mean the dropsuit is. I run exclusively with Ishukone assault SMG on many of my scouts. It's better than CR in my opinion. If you are useless with an SMG, that's your problem. So then we could also make vehicles [completely] useless against infantry simply due to the fact that pilots can use other gear -besides their vehicle- to destroy the AVer? I mean after all, while the vehicle may be useless, but that doesn't mean the player is... right? So you want swarms to lock onto infantry? Great, let's see how many idiots agree with you.
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9342	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:41:00 - [193] - Quote lithkul devant wrote: I hate dropships as much as the guy next to me, and mind you it will be fun blowing them out of the sky, but I do hope you will be adjusting the Ehp on the ADS with the other dropships so that they are not complete paper tigers. Yes I fully agree with the adjustments in armor resistance and shield resistance and the change to the damage threshold. I however, will suggest that Ehp on dropships will need to be modified in order to well survive since Dropships and ADS are known for having low armor and shield, what kept them alive so well (OP as they were) was all the things that were botched when dealing with them. I hope you change the numbers of Ehp on them first before deciding to mess to much with the resistances or bonuses against dropships. Dropship and Assault Dropship Pilots will still have the ability to make quick work of an AVer (in a span of 2.4 seconds mind you), not to mention that they'll still have the ability to evade Swarms via cover (ie, flying behind a tower) as well as their trusty Afterburner. The Swarm Launcher adjustments won't change that. Not to mention that an increase of DS/ADS eHP would have to result in an increase in damage from other AV weapons, or you'll risk making other AV choices underpowered against them. Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical. -HAND
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1014	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:43:00 - [194] - Quote Atiim wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: A swarm launcher is a light weapon and that's already enough. You can run so do so. Stop armor plate tanking like a bch... And your point is? Flaylock is pointless against infantry, FG is pretty pointless close up, Plasma Cannon is gonna get you killed cuz of reload unless you have like unheard of accuracy. Nova knives are pointless when caught at a distant of like 5+ meters. The point is that to survive against a competent infantry player, you need to be highly skilled as your weapon does literally nothing against infantry. While those weapons may be relatively useless (due to being able to theoretically kill infantry), the Swarm Launcher is completely useless against infantry. Sir Dukey wrote: Just because a weapon is useless against infantry doesn't mean the dropsuit is. I run exclusively with Ishukone assault SMG on many of my scouts. It's better than CR in my opinion. If you are useless with an SMG, that's your problem. So then we could also make vehicles [completely] useless against infantry simply due to the fact that pilots can use other gear -besides their vehicle- to destroy the AVer? I mean after all, while the vehicle may be useless, but that doesn't mean the player is... right? Sure, Pilots can use Small turrets or blasters, blasters are terrible at killing tanks.
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:43:00 - [195] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so here's the plan. First things first: We're going ahead with the missile number change for the swarm launcher. You can see them at the bottom of this sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dRIiqkQK4S1_NmisVxjvaBgrEtMcX-D8qz0cR4d_fV4/edit#gid=1310924977 Second: We're reducing the cost of ADS to 250,000ISK Third: We're changing the efficiency of swarm launchers to dropships from a flat 55% on shield and armour to standard resistances (80% for shields, 120%). We're also correcting the efficiency on their thrusters (their weak point) which will now also be changed to standard (100% for shields, 150% for armour) Fourth: We're looking at lowering the minimum threshold to interrupt shield recharge from 102 to 80. Fifth: While technically not a design change, we're fixing the proficiency skill for any weapon that is armour bonused not working against vehicles. This includes both swarms and forge guns. Due to the massive change that number three is bringing, I won't want to make any further changes until I see how it evens out. If dropships start falling from the sky too quickly, we can look at lowering swarm efficiency against dropships again. If it seems to be fine, then we can look at making some swarm variants and further tweaks to the base swarm launcher (EM Swarm Launcher bonused by Amarr Commandos anyone?) There are not enough likes to give if we get EM missiles xD Ah yes because the python couldn't get any weaker. Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9342	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:43:00 - [196] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: So you want swarms to lock onto infantry? Great, let's see how many idiots agree with you. Calls someone an idiot, the proceeds to commit a logical fallacy in the exact same post. Troll or Lol? Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical. -HAND
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1014	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:44:00 - [197] - Quote Atiim wrote: lithkul devant wrote: I hate dropships as much as the guy next to me, and mind you it will be fun blowing them out of the sky, but I do hope you will be adjusting the Ehp on the ADS with the other dropships so that they are not complete paper tigers. Yes I fully agree with the adjustments in armor resistance and shield resistance and the change to the damage threshold. I however, will suggest that Ehp on dropships will need to be modified in order to well survive since Dropships and ADS are known for having low armor and shield, what kept them alive so well (OP as they were) was all the things that were botched when dealing with them. I hope you change the numbers of Ehp on them first before deciding to mess to much with the resistances or bonuses against dropships. Dropship and Assault Dropship Pilots will still have the ability to make quick work of an AVer (in a span of 2.4 seconds mind you), not to mention that they'll still have the ability to evade Swarms via cover (ie, flying behind a tower) as well as their trusty Afterburner. The Swarm Launcher adjustments won't change that. Not to mention that an increase of DS/ADS eHP would have to result in an increase in damage from other AV weapons, or you'll risk making other AV choices underpowered against them. Mind you that a good ADS costs 400k isk next patch, also mind you that you dont fking lock onto infantry with an ADS, Infantry can hide as well.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2197	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:45:00 - [198] - Quote Too far Logibro, way way too far. And if you want to use my hard earned is to see if we start "dropping for the skies", then how about, until you actually have real data you make them cost 70k, so I dont lose all my money while you see how it goes? Judge For CPM 1 youtube Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1014	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:45:00 - [199] - Quote Atiim wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: So you want swarms to lock onto infantry? Great, let's see how many idiots agree with you. Calls someone an idiot, the proceeds to commit a logical fallacy in the exact same post. Troll or Lol? Well, if you say swarms are pointless against infantry what are you trying to achieve? You want to use them against infantry? Isn't having a skill-less lock and shoot AV weapon already enough? You want them to lock onto Infantry now? Explain to me your wish list Atiim...
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:47:00 - [200] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Too far Logibro, way way too far. What is too far? The further python nerf or the incubus nerf or... Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.


CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8087	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:49:00 - [201] - Quote Yes, I'm aware that this change makes dropships much more vulnerable to swarm launchers. But this resistance issue has been causing a lot of other knock on issues that we can't even look at until it's been resolved. I will definitely be keeping a very close eye on Dropships after Bravo. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)

duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:51:00 - [202] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Yes, I'm aware that this change makes dropships much more vulnerable to swarm launchers. But this resistance issue has been causing a lot of other knock on issues that we can't even look at until it's been resolved. I will definitely be keeping a very close eye on Dropships after Bravo. Hey, just so you know, with 2.5k shields a python gets 3 shotted by forges, 2 shotted with base hp, gotta buff assault dropships sometime. Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1016	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:51:00 - [203] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Yes, I'm aware that this change makes dropships much more vulnerable to swarm launchers. But this resistance issue has been causing a lot of other knock on issues that we can't even look at until it's been resolved. I will definitely be keeping a very close eye on Dropships after Bravo. You suck... Thanks for python nerf...
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2199	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:53:00 - [204] - Quote A few things. Ill chart it up tonight. Post tomorrow when I have the numbers. But in a nutshell these changes are based of the numbers, like damage and efficiency. They do not account for how the battle actually is. Hers iis just one example - impulse. Swarms knock us all over the place. Each missile hits 1 after the other and we cannot aim at the target. We can only shoot between volleys, and by adding more missiles we will likely have a tiny window to fight back. Judge For CPM 1 youtube Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:55:00 - [205] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: A few things. Ill chart it up tonight. Post tomorrow when I have the numbers. But in a nutshell these changes are based of the numbers, like damage and efficiency. They do not account for how the battle actually is. Hers iis just one example - impulse. Swarms knock us all over the place. Each missile hits 1 after the other and we cannot aim at the target. We can only shoot between volleys, and by adding more missiles we will likely have a tiny window to fight back. Correction, we can't fight back. It's almost impossible already and because the python is weak you must run. Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9343	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:55:00 - [206] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Go fly a python and tell me if you get over 10 kills, you're such a scrub. You know nothing but and only root for the sht you put SP in. I am glad swarms are getting buffed, incubus were impossible to kill with swarm, great, but you forgot that this buff throws off Python balance by like a lot. Also did I forget to mention that to fly a python and actually kill, you don't just lock on to your targets while being invisible? Considering how I quite literally use every weapon & role in DUST, I'd be hard not to root for the items i have SP in. Should I take this as a compliment? You may not have to lock onto the infantry, but you are instantly aware of his location the second he fires his swarms at you, allowing you to seek and destroy him, which isn't really hard once you get Caldari Assault Dropships III. Sir Dukey wrote:* A swarmer is invisible to a ADS pilot from 80 meters? Did you know swarms knock ADS's upside down? Oh wait, what do you know, you don't fly. Yeah, nice try. I've been flying Pythons for nearly 3 weeks now, and I can confidently say that while they do knock you around, they do not flip you completely over. Well unless your fighting multiple Swarm users, but that's a different story... Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical. -HAND
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1016	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:57:00 - [207] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: A few things. Ill chart it up tonight. Post tomorrow when I have the numbers. But in a nutshell these changes are based of the numbers, like damage and efficiency. They do not account for how the battle actually is. Hers iis just one example - impulse. Swarms knock us all over the place. Each missile hits 1 after the other and we cannot aim at the target. We can only shoot between volleys, and by adding more missiles we will likely have a tiny window to fight back. No, were going to have to run after we see the first volley of militia swarms knowing the second one is already locked and loaded, also knowing that the first volley is either going to push us into a wall, the ground. The least it can do is take away 1/3 of our shields and there is no way to avoid it.
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:57:00 - [208] - Quote Atiim wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Go fly a python and tell me if you get over 10 kills, you're such a scrub. You know nothing but and only root for the sht you put SP in. I am glad swarms are getting buffed, incubus were impossible to kill with swarm, great, but you forgot that this buff throws off Python balance by like a lot. Also did I forget to mention that to fly a python and actually kill, you don't just lock on to your targets while being invisible? Considering how I quite literally use every weapon & role in DUST, I'd be hard not to root for the items i have SP in. Should I take this as a compliment? You may not have to lock onto the infantry, but you are instantly aware of his location the second he fires his swarms at you, allowing you to seek and destroy him, which isn't really hard once you get Caldari Assault Dropships III. Sir Dukey wrote:* A swarmer is invisible to a ADS pilot from 80 meters? Did you know swarms knock ADS's upside down? Oh wait, what do you know, you don't fly. Yeah, nice try. I've been flying Pythons for nearly 3 weeks now, and I can confidently say that while they do knock you around, they do not flip you completely over. Well unless your fighting multiple Swarm users, but that's a different story... If you are at an angle they do. Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2202	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:59:00 - [209] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: A few things. Ill chart it up tonight. Post tomorrow when I have the numbers. But in a nutshell these changes are based of the numbers, like damage and efficiency. They do not account for how the battle actually is. Hers iis just one example - impulse. Swarms knock us all over the place. Each missile hits 1 after the other and we cannot aim at the target. We can only shoot between volleys, and by adding more missiles we will likely have a tiny window to fight back. No, were going to have to run after we see the first volley of militia swarms knowing the second one is already locked and loaded, also knowing that the first volley is either going to push us into a wall, the ground. The least it can do is take away 1/3 of our shields and there is no way to avoid it. Exactly. You think we we just AB away now, Soon As i see that first shot I will run. Not fight. YOu will get less battles between swarms and dropships. Swarmers may find they get less kills and more frustrating fights. Judge For CPM 1 youtube Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1017	Posted - 2014.06.11 20:00:00 - [210] - Quote Atiim wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Go fly a python and tell me if you get over 10 kills, you're such a scrub. You know nothing but and only root for the sht you put SP in. I am glad swarms are getting buffed, incubus were impossible to kill with swarm, great, but you forgot that this buff throws off Python balance by like a lot. Also did I forget to mention that to fly a python and actually kill, you don't just lock on to your targets while being invisible? Considering how I quite literally use every weapon & role in DUST, I'd be hard not to root for the items i have SP in. Should I take this as a compliment? You may not have to lock onto the infantry, but you are instantly aware of his location the second he fires his swarms at you, allowing you to seek and destroy him, which isn't really hard once you get Caldari Assault Dropships III. Sir Dukey wrote:* A swarmer is invisible to a ADS pilot from 80 meters? Did you know swarms knock ADS's upside down? Oh wait, what do you know, you don't fly. Yeah, nice try. I've been flying Pythons for nearly 3 weeks now, and I can confidently say that while they do knock you around, they do not flip you completely over. Well unless your fighting multiple Swarm users, but that's a different story... LOL, 3 weeks compared to my 1+ year.. Ok Atiim.... I doubt you even fly. It's probably your once in a while thing, pulling it out on clueless newberries just like how you used you're tank in 1.6. There is nothing to hide Atiim, we all know you're a scrub. BTW, do go watch Judges Videos.

duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2014.06.11 20:02:00 - [211] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: A few things. Ill chart it up tonight. Post tomorrow when I have the numbers. But in a nutshell these changes are based of the numbers, like damage and efficiency. They do not account for how the battle actually is. Hers iis just one example - impulse. Swarms knock us all over the place. Each missile hits 1 after the other and we cannot aim at the target. We can only shoot between volleys, and by adding more missiles we will likely have a tiny window to fight back. No, were going to have to run after we see the first volley of militia swarms knowing the second one is already locked and loaded, also knowing that the first volley is either going to push us into a wall, the ground. The least it can do is take away 1/3 of our shields and there is no way to avoid it. Exactly. You think we we just AB away now, Soon As i see that first shot I will run. Not fight. YOu will get less battles between swarms and dropships. Swarmers may find they get less kills and more frustrating fights. Well that's what happens when lock on users cry for buffs, look at the stinger in bf3, way op, no more below radar, 1 hit disable. Bf4, 1 hit temporary disable for 6 seconds, 2s stinger reload time, ya try to escape that. Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.
Floyd20 Azizora L.O.T.I.S. 57	Posted - 2014.06.11 20:06:00 - [212] - Quote no one notices that swarms were doing 55% damage, likely before the fact it does 70% of that right? while i don't fly dropships, 220 0.55=1210.7=84.7 per missle to shields, and i believe i saw something about 120 damage needed to stop shield regen. maybe CCP should show live test video of these new stats in action, see what happens?
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1017	Posted - 2014.06.11 20:08:00 - [213] - Quote Floyd20 Azizora wrote: no one notices that swarms were doing 55% damage, likely before the fact it does 70% of that right? while i don't fly dropships, 220 0.55=1210.7=84.7 per missle to shields, and i believe i saw something about 120 damage needed to stop shield regen. maybe CCP should show live test video of these new stats in action, see what happens? Swarms does stop regen, these swarmers just don't know it.

CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8088	Posted - 2014.06.11 20:10:00 - [214] - Quote Alright, small update. I had a number wrong somewhere that made it seem like less damage. Chew on this instead Base 75% efficiency for swarms meaning: 60% against shields 90% against armour 75% against thruster shields 112.5% against thruster armour Note that this only affects swarms when shooting all dropships. Sorry for the panic attack. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)

deezy dabest Sacred Initiative of Combat Killers 601	Posted - 2014.06.11 20:11:00 - [215] - Quote As an ADS pilot I am all for balancing swarms against them in whatever way. But please do not screw the Python over just to make the incubus vulnerable. I will comment more once I look at the changes in depth. Laser focused in a room full of mirrors. Everything you ever wanted coming SoonGäó just keep buying boosters.
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9343	Posted - 2014.06.11 20:18:00 - [216] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: LOL, 3 weeks compared to my 1+ year.. Ok Atiim.... I doubt you even fly. It's probably your once in a while thing pulling it out on clueless newberries just like how you used you're tank in 1.6. There is nothing to hid Atiim, we all know you're a scrub. BTW, do go watch Judges Videos. You piloting a Python for a year doesn't change the fact that: Swarm Launchers don't completely flip Pythons over; making your statement a lie A Python has the ability to kill an AVer quickly; and these SL changes won't prevent that from happening. The amount of time you've been piloting Pythons doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of of things you've recently posted in this discussion is drivel. Time Gëá Credibility. Not actually sure what that has to do with anything really, but the fact that I've beaten and out-scored players who are better than you'll ever be, I'll take your statement about me being a scrub with a grain of salt. Sir Dukey wrote: Swarms does stop regen, these swarmers just don't know it. Don't recally seeing a Swarm Launcher user say that they don'tt stop Shield Regen on a Python. Do you have a quote or may I place this statement in the trash pile with the rest of your fallacious drivel? Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical. -HAND
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10314	Posted - 2014.06.11 20:19:00 - [217] - Quote Doesn't the forge gun do full damage to dropships? If so, what's the difference with swarms? At the range a swarm can lock on to you, you are quite hard to miss with a forge gun. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
lithkul devant Legions of Infinite Dominion Zero-Day 242	Posted - 2014.06.11 20:20:00 - [218] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Atiim wrote: lithkul devant wrote: I hate dropships as much as the guy next to me, and mind you it will be fun blowing them out of the sky, but I do hope you will be adjusting the Ehp on the ADS with the other dropships so that they are not complete paper tigers. Yes I fully agree with the adjustments in armor resistance and shield resistance and the change to the damage threshold. I however, will suggest that Ehp on dropships will need to be modified in order to well survive since Dropships and ADS are known for having low armor and shield, what kept them alive so well (OP as they were) was all the things that were botched when dealing with them. I hope you change the numbers of Ehp on them first before deciding to mess to much with the resistances or bonuses against dropships. Dropship and Assault Dropship Pilots will still have the ability to make quick work of an AVer (in a span of 2.4 seconds mind you), not to mention that they'll still have the ability to evade Swarms via cover (ie, flying behind a tower) as well as their trusty Afterburner. The Swarm Launcher adjustments won't change that. Not to mention that an increase of DS/ADS eHP would have to result in an increase in damage from other AV weapons, or you'll risk making other AV choices underpowered against them. Mind you that a good ADS costs 400k isk next patch, also mind you that you dont fking lock onto infantry with an ADS, Infantry can hide as well. Let me repeat myself, so that no one is confused, I want to kill ADS I will go out of my way to forge gun them or shoot them with SL or forge whenever I can, I have even been known to light one up using an HMG cause it got to close and was trying to land on me. I understand that changing dropship health will unbalance them some, however, do recall that forge guns and other things will be getting a damage bonus due to bonuses working correctly and resistances working correctly. The dropships will literally feel like they have no health compared to what they did and they will die within seconds. The regen issue which many of us have hated will also be much closer to being fixed as well. I honestly want to kill ADS have even made jokes about jumping into an ADS as a heavy that was low enough and performing a God of War scene on the dropship pilot. I do not want my most hated enemy to go away, I do not want them being to easy of a kill. I want ADS to be able to take a medium sized ass kicking before they go down, otherwise we will be back to tankbush and tankdom and tankskirm again. ADS are what keep tanks from completely dominating the battlefield, except when you have a really good AV squad, which happens....very rarely. I feel that Logibro is doing an excellent job on this issue and is being well in tuned with what the community wants and needs. I do hope to see what Judge has to say as well towards this issue. Thank you for the new clarification by the way, but I think most of the issue now is the impulse and how much they can hit around a ADS or Dropship and the window for being effective in combat we will have to see this in action and after testing.
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2014.06.11 20:37:00 - [219] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, small update. I had a number wrong somewhere that made it seem like less damage. Chew on this instead Base 75% efficiency for swarms meaning: 60% against shields 90% against armour 75% against thruster shields 112.5% against thruster armour Note that this only affects swarms when shooting all dropships. This might not be a permanent move, as I might later decide to increase DS HP: if that happens, they'll move to standard 80/120 levels. Seems fine. But now could you please do something about forges vs drooships? Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.
lithkul devant Legions of Infinite Dominion Zero-Day 242	Posted - 2014.06.11 20:38:00 - [220] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: A few things. Ill chart it up tonight. Post tomorrow when I have the numbers. But in a nutshell these changes are based of the numbers, like damage and efficiency. They do not account for how the battle actually is. Hers iis just one example - impulse. Swarms knock us all over the place. Each missile hits 1 after the other and we cannot aim at the target. We can only shoot between volleys, and by adding more missiles we will likely have a tiny window to fight back. No, were going to have to run after we see the first volley of militia swarms knowing the second one is already locked and loaded, also knowing that the first volley is either going to push us into a wall, the ground. The least it can do is take away 1/3 of our shields and there is no way to avoid it. Exactly. You think we we just AB away now, Soon As i see that first shot I will run. Not fight. YOu will get less battles between swarms and dropships. Swarmers may find they get less kills and more frustrating fights. I really enjoy your videos and I do try to post up links to them when I can and when they are relevant, I just wanted to take a second out of the day to thank you for the excellent work you do and I really do hope you become part of the CPM you would be a really great person for the job as you explain things very well.

Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 261	Posted - 2014.06.11 20:43:00 - [221] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, small update. I had a number wrong somewhere that made it seem like less damage. Chew on this instead Base 75% efficiency for swarms meaning: 60% against shields 90% against armour 75% against thruster shields 112.5% against thruster armour Note that this only affects swarms when shooting all dropships. This might not be a permanent move, as I might later decide to increase DS HP: if that happens, they'll move to standard 80/120 levels. Currently swarms lock the whole vehicle and can not be aimed at a weak spot on the vehicle, Will you make three aim spots on the dropship now?
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1017	Posted - 2014.06.11 20:45:00 - [222] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: lithkul devant wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so I'm going to put some of my early thoughts here. None of this is final and is highly dependent on your feedback * Reduce ADS price to 250,000 ISK * Swarms to 150m, Assault Swarms to 200m * Buff base dropship health a little (not ADS) * Increase swarm reserve ammo * Reduce physical impulse on Assault Swarms * Slight increase to physical impulse on Swarms * Increase Assault Swarm speed, reduce tracking and flight time. Total range will still be slightly higher. Max Rotation rate is currently 90 degrees, will try 60 first. * Increase Standard Dropship speed (140 -> 160) * Increase missiles to 6/7/8, reduce damage to compensate (165) to close gap between standard, advanced and prototype. * Reduce Assault Swarm damage (looking at 10% initially) Vehicle Armour Repairers need a big hit with a nerf bat, so I'll also look at those. However they are a much wider issue, so that might take some more time. The resistance profiles for swarms also seem a bit strange, so I'll dig into those as well. I saw someone mention afterburners increasing damage taken as a thought, and from what I can see that might be possible, but that's going into mad science territory at this stage and I haven't given it much thought yet. Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target? While I think your intentions might be good on this, I think you are doing it wrong. 1. When you reduce the damage of swarm missiles you reduce the possible chance for them to break the regen cycle. Aka shields will not even slow down and the damage you just applied will mean nothing. 2. Armor repairs do not need a huge nerf on how much they repair per tick, they need a nerf on CPU/PG so that you can not make yourself invincible to most forms of damage, such as only being able to have 2 max on or hardwire it so that you can only have 1 possible. (As you said tank to tank combat is in a good place) 3. Swarm launchers have to short of a range as is, to make it even shorter just puts them more at risk. So much so I will retire my Swarm launcher fit if the max range is 150 for the standard. Because the FG out damages it and out ranges it and even pushes the dropship more then the SL does. Not to mention the PLC might be becoming an actual AV weapon, which again will out perform the SL. 4. Exactly why are you making a weapon, that has literally one function, which is to shoot vehicles less effective then weapons that can actually do damage to infantry as well major example the forge gun? That right their is a huge nerf, due to having to rely upon others to protect them most times. Though the other changes you are proposing would be very nice, if you need me to I can easily find plenty of videos of SL not doing enough damage to break regen cycles. A SL that provides a slowing buff would be awesome, but I bet every tanker and ADS pilot will complain that it is OP within seconds. I'm pretty sure that we can reduce that threshold from 102 to 80-75 or even lower safely (anything that isn't an AV weapon already has a really low multiplier so shouldn't interfere still). There's also a strange thing I've found with the resistances for dropships against swarms (the 55% efficiency people have mentioned), so fixing that might solve a lot of problems. PG/CPU modifications are something we've considered, but that's a little beyond the scope of Bravo. Chances are we won't touch them this time around and leave them for another hotfix. Swarm Range is the biggest thing I'll need feedback for, as it's hard to duplicate actual battlefield conditions with less people. There is no damage nerf, prototype damage is the same and standard and advanced are higher. Swarms have the advantage in that they can lockon to their targets, which gives a much higher amount of accuracy.
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1017	Posted - 2014.06.11 20:58:00 - [223] - Quote Atiim wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: LOL, 3 weeks compared to my 1+ year.. Ok Atiim.... I doubt you even fly. It's probably your once in a while thing pulling it out on clueless newberries just like how you used you're tank in 1.6. There is nothing to hid Atiim, we all know you're a scrub. BTW, do go watch Judges Videos. You piloting a Python for a year doesn't change the fact that: Swarm Launchers don't completely flip Pythons over; making your statement a lie A Python has the ability to kill an AVer quickly; and these SL changes won't prevent that from happening. The amount of time you've been piloting Pythons doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of of things you've recently posted in this discussion is drivel. Time Gëá Credibility. Not actually sure what that has to do with anything really, but the fact that I've beaten and out-scored players who are better than you'll ever be, I'll take your statement about me being a scrub with a grain of salt. Sir Dukey wrote: Swarms does stop regen, these swarmers just don't know it. Don't recally seeing a Swarm Launcher user say that they don'tt stop Shield Regen on a Python. Do you have a quote or may I place this statement in the trash pile with the rest of your fallacious drivel? Swarms don't always but they do sometimes, And sometimes they push hard into objects. If you flew a dropship everyday in 50-70% of your matches, you will see the flip over thinggy happen. There is some in Dust Fiends videos but I cannot be bother to find it for you. Time does = Credibility (not always but in somecases) because it means you have done and seen everything, I have seen RDV's hit me, swarms/ forges turn me upside down, railguns kill me in 2 seconds, MCC missiles hit me, Ramming, Stupid mechanics like Shield collison damage. Let me remind you, the swarm is lock and fire= no skill, ADS - you have to manage everything, slightest things can kill you, (It's worth 500k isk), You have to fly, you have to actually Aim and try to terminate your target. A swarmer can very well fend me off even at militia level. They can hide behind objects, they can keep throwing off my aim and also they can take me out... Atiim, you don't fly. I use proto swarms (actually no, they are pointless against armor vehicles) but they are well against shields and this buff will only throw off the balance. The regen thing is addressed by CCP in this post. Also, I would like to repeat myself in hopes that you understand: Swarm launcher- skill-less weapon, I know you don't fly nor have you flown long enough to see the horror. So stop being biased.
Pvt Numnutz Watchdoge Explosives 1457	Posted - 2014.06.11 21:16:00 - [224] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill. Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful. We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship. Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in. The afterburner is a dropships countermeasure. Against forge guns it allows us to change direction suddenly it orbit quickly throwing off his aim a bit, not always effective depending on the skill of the forge gunner but helps none the less. Against swarms it allows us to clear the lock range and potentially out run a volly if we can get the speed up in time. Doesn't always work but does get the ship out of lock range. It is incredibly difficult to fight a forge gunner without an after burner, especially a good one. You can't maneuver fast enough to dodge his shots. With swarms you simply cannot dodge their missiles once locked, with out an afterburner you will get hit, unless you get lucky and it hits a part of a building but that's rare, especially with good swarmers. It should be a well known fact at this point that infantry don't render well for dropships, as judge has shown in his videos dropship pilots are most of the time blind to threats around them. I fly with gunners and for what ever reason infantry render much better for them, so sometimes they tell me "hey I need you to get me higher" "red to our right 3 o'clock" etc etc because I can't see the target and they know so they give me the information I need to give them an angle. Most of the times I've been killed by av was because of a milita swarm shooting at me, when I go to engage suddenly 1-2 forge guns fire from right next to the swarm and down me. No render just blue balls of death. This happens a lot with swarms too, the swarms hit from outside my fov, though I can't tell where because the hit marker tells me the opposite direction and the swarms don't render when I turn to see where they are coming from. My only option is to retreat rep my shields try and guess where they were, or I don't go back meaning the swarms have protected their area. Personally I think one proto fit swarm should be a serious threat to my proto fit dropship, if I mess up he kills me, if I am smart and retreat using my countermeasure I keep my ship and limp back to a supply depo. A proto swarm and another swarm launcher working together with communication should be able to kill me, as I am also using teamwork with a gunner to kill them. An important note for you Rattati, v/av balance is very delicate. I'm in favor of buffing swarms a little, maybe 80-100 DMG nothing too crazy because if a single swarm can shoot down a dropship then any av combination will easily down a dropship. Swarms are the easiest av, you don't have to aim as much as a forge or plc. Forge guns require skill and very good aim and battles against them are fun and challenging for both parties involved. Not saying swarms require no skill but they don't require as much as their counterparts. The scariest aspect with buffing swarms in my mind is the forge swarm combo. Skilled av teams will gave the forge engage first and fight the dropship while the swarm holds fire, an assault dropship might be able to fight a single forge gunner but not a forge with swarm support. Ads shots will be too off target to effectively fight. Instead the swarm waits till the forge has damaged the dropship significantly and fires before he retreats catching the ads pilot off guard. These new assault swarms you've suggested sound perfect for that role and I'm all for a chase missile specifically for fighting dropships. However the damage has to be less than other swarms because they are effectively fighting my only defense against their weapon. I hope you read all of this but TL:DR in case your busy. Rendering is a serious issue for pilots that can be helped by having gunners assist in threat/target identification as they have better rendering. Swarms are almost balanced but could use a little bit of a buff to their DMG to make them more of a viable threat to assault dropships. They should not be over buffed with added range or excessive DMG increase. If a single swarm can down a proto fit dropship with ease then any combination of av can easily down an assault dropship. Changing the assault swarm to be a sort of anti dropship variant is a great idea so long as they trade anti afterburner hitting ability for DMG. This encourages teamwork.
Lynn Beck Heaven's Lost Property 1764	Posted - 2014.06.11 21:20:00 - [225] - Quote duster 35000 wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: A few things. Ill chart it up tonight. Post tomorrow when I have the numbers. But in a nutshell these changes are based of the numbers, like damage and efficiency. They do not account for how the battle actually is. Hers iis just one example - impulse. Swarms knock us all over the place. Each missile hits 1 after the other and we cannot aim at the target. We can only shoot between volleys, and by adding more missiles we will likely have a tiny window to fight back. Correction, we can't fight back. It's almost impossible already and because the python is weak you must run. Uh. Complex plate on a Incubus makes it LITERALLY impossible to sway, unless you're hit directly in te engine by Railguns types, Swarms hav no ability for that. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1017	Posted - 2014.06.11 21:23:00 - [226] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: duster 35000 wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: A few things. Ill chart it up tonight. Post tomorrow when I have the numbers. But in a nutshell these changes are based of the numbers, like damage and efficiency. They do not account for how the battle actually is. Hers iis just one example - impulse. Swarms knock us all over the place. Each missile hits 1 after the other and we cannot aim at the target. We can only shoot between volleys, and by adding more missiles we will likely have a tiny window to fight back. Correction, we can't fight back. It's almost impossible already and because the python is weak you must run. Uh. Complex plate on a Incubus makes it LITERALLY impossible to sway, unless you're hit directly in te engine by Railguns types, Swarms hav no ability for that. This thread has turned into a python vs swarm balance. We don't want CCP to balance swarms solely on Armor dropships because we know they are OP.
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1017	Posted - 2014.06.11 21:26:00 - [227] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill. Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful. We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship. Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in. The afterburner is a dropships countermeasure. Against forge guns it allows us to change direction suddenly it orbit quickly throwing off his aim a bit, not always effective depending on the skill of the forge gunner but helps none the less. Against swarms it allows us to clear the lock range and potentially out run a volly if we can get the speed up in time. Doesn't always work but does get the ship out of lock range. It is incredibly difficult to fight a forge gunner without an after burner, especially a good one. You can't maneuver fast enough to dodge his shots. With swarms you simply cannot dodge their missiles once locked, with out an afterburner you will get hit, unless you get lucky and it hits a part of a building but that's rare, especially with good swarmers. It should be a well known fact at this point that infantry don't render well for dropships, as judge has shown in his videos dropship pilots are most of the time blind to threats around them. I fly with gunners and for what ever reason infantry render much better for them, so sometimes they tell me "hey I need you to get me higher" "red to our right 3 o'clock" etc etc because I can't see the target and they know so they give me the information I need to give them an angle. Most of the times I've been killed by av was because of a milita swarm shooting at me, when I go to engage suddenly 1-2 forge guns fire from right next to the swarm and down me. No render just blue balls of death. This happens a lot with swarms too, the swarms hit from outside my fov, though I can't tell where because the hit marker tells me the opposite direction and the swarms don't render when I turn to see where they are coming from. My only option is to retreat rep my shields try and guess where they were, or I don't go back meaning the swarms have protected their area. Personally I think one proto fit swarm should be a serious threat to my proto fit dropship, if I mess up he kills me, if I am smart and retreat using my countermeasure I keep my ship and limp back to a supply depo. A proto swarm and another swarm launcher working together with communication should be able to kill me, as I am also using teamwork with a gunner to kill them. An important note for you Rattati, v/av balance is very delicate. I'm in favor of buffing swarms a little, maybe 80-100 DMG nothing too crazy because if a single swarm can shoot down a dropship then any av combination will easily down a dropship. Swarms are the easiest av, you don't have to aim as much as a forge or plc. Forge guns require skill and very good aim and battles against them are fun and challenging for both parties involved. Not saying swarms require no skill but they don't require as much as their counterparts. The scariest aspect with buffing swarms in my mind is the forge swarm combo. Skilled av teams will gave the forge engage first and fight the dropship while the swarm holds fire, an assault dropship might be able to fight a single forge gunner but not a forge with swarm support. Ads shots will be too off target to effectively fight. Instead the swarm waits till the forge has damaged the dropship significantly and fires before he retreats catching the ads pilot off guard. These new assault swarms you've suggested sound perfect for that role and I'm all for a chase missile specifically for fighting dropships. However the damage has to be less than other swarms because they are effectively fighting my only defense against their weapon. I hope you read all of this but TL:DR in case your busy. Rendering is a serious issue for pilots that can be helped by having gunners assist in threat/target identification as they have better rendering. Swarms are almost balanced but could use a little bit of a buff to their DMG to make them more of a viable threat to assault dropships. They should not be over buffed with added range or excessive DMG increase. If a single swarm can down a proto fit dropship with ease then any combination of av can easily down an assault dropship. Changing the assault swarm to be a sort of anti dropship variant is a great idea so long as they trade anti afterburner hitting ability for DMG. This encourages teamwork. Swarm and Python buff is nearly perfect, and I don't want a damage buff throwing that off...
Lynn Beck Heaven's Lost Property 1765	Posted - 2014.06.11 21:29:00 - [228] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Atiim wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: LOL, 3 weeks compared to my 1+ year.. Ok Atiim.... I doubt you even fly. It's probably your once in a while thing pulling it out on clueless newberries just like how you used you're tank in 1.6. There is nothing to hid Atiim, we all know you're a scrub. BTW, do go watch Judges Videos. You piloting a Python for a year doesn't change the fact that: Swarm Launchers don't completely flip Pythons over; making your statement a lie A Python has the ability to kill an AVer quickly; and these SL changes won't prevent that from happening. The amount of time you've been piloting Pythons doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of of things you've recently posted in this discussion is drivel. Time Gëá Credibility. Not actually sure what that has to do with anything really, but the fact that I've beaten and out-scored players who are better than you'll ever be, I'll take your statement about me being a scrub with a grain of salt. Sir Dukey wrote: Swarms does stop regen, these swarmers just don't know it. Don't recally seeing a Swarm Launcher user say that they don'tt stop Shield Regen on a Python. Do you have a quote or may I place this statement in the trash pile with the rest of your fallacious drivel? Swarms don't always but they do sometimes, And sometimes they push hard into objects. If you flew a dropship everyday in 50-70% of your matches, you will see the flip over thinggy happen. There is some in Dust Fiends videos but I cannot be bother to find it for you. Time does = Credibility (not always but in somecases) because it means you have done and seen everything, I have seen RDV's hit me, swarms/ forges turn me upside down, railguns kill me in 2 seconds, MCC missiles hit me, Ramming, Stupid mechanics like Shield collison damage. Let me remind you, the swarm is lock and fire= no skill, ADS - you have to manage everything, slightest things can kill you, (It's worth 500k isk), You have to fly, you have to actually Aim and try to terminate your target. A swarmer can very well fend me off even at militia level. They can hide behind objects, they can keep throwing off my aim and also they can take me out... Atiim, you don't fly. I use proto swarms (actually no, they are pointless against armor vehicles) but they are well against shields and this buff will only throw off the balance. The regen thing is addressed by CCP in this post. Also, I would like to repeat myself in hopes that you understand: Swarm launcher- skill-less weapon, I know you don't fly nor have you flown long enough to see the horror. So stop being biased. Skill-less you say? What about being a 900 HP unit who gets 2 shot by Xt's? What about requiring prof AND reload AND ammo, simply to kill a double mlt rep Soma? What about sometimes, even needing to combine the Swarms with Ac nades AND a remote? Surely sacrificing 3 of my potential weapons for self defense for anti Tank is 'skilled' in that i'm specializing much more than rven Snipers or Scouts? What about the fact i need to 'swerve' my swarms whilst dodging Blaster fire while never takin my eyes off of him, and then staring at the sky to make sire they don't hit the grass? What 'skill' do you need to kill me in a ADS? About a week's worth of practice figuring how to stay level and 'aim' that swervy PoS reticule. Surely the only thing you have to do is hit me 3 times, while i have to unload MULTIPLE clips at maxed skills SIMPLY to kill your Mlt Module at worst, Full Prototype at best, Incubus, which, UNTIL BRAVO, has had an innate near 50% resist to everything i shoot? Surely you're being a Fotm scrub, relying on 43% resists and MWD mods to ensure you never die in your (isk isn't a balancing factor) 500k dropship? General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1018	Posted - 2014.06.11 21:42:00 - [229] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Atiim wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: LOL, 3 weeks compared to my 1+ year.. Ok Atiim.... I doubt you even fly. It's probably your once in a while thing pulling it out on clueless newberries just like how you used you're tank in 1.6. There is nothing to hid Atiim, we all know you're a scrub. BTW, do go watch Judges Videos. You piloting a Python for a year doesn't change the fact that: Swarm Launchers don't completely flip Pythons over; making your statement a lie A Python has the ability to kill an AVer quickly; and these SL changes won't prevent that from happening. The amount of time you've been piloting Pythons doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of of things you've recently posted in this discussion is drivel. Time Gëá Credibility. Not actually sure what that has to do with anything really, but the fact that I've beaten and out-scored players who are better than you'll ever be, I'll take your statement about me being a scrub with a grain of salt. Sir Dukey wrote: Swarms does stop regen, these swarmers just don't know it. Don't recally seeing a Swarm Launcher user say that they don'tt stop Shield Regen on a Python. Do you have a quote or may I place this statement in the trash pile with the rest of your fallacious drivel? Swarms don't always but they do sometimes, And sometimes they push hard into objects. If you flew a dropship everyday in 50-70% of your matches, you will see the flip over thinggy happen. There is some in Dust Fiends videos but I cannot be bother to find it for you. Time does = Credibility (not always but in somecases) because it means you have done and seen everything, I have seen RDV's hit me, swarms/ forges turn me upside down, railguns kill me in 2 seconds, MCC missiles hit me, Ramming, Stupid mechanics like Shield collison damage. Let me remind you, the swarm is lock and fire= no skill, ADS - you have to manage everything, slightest things can kill you, (It's worth 500k isk), You have to fly, you have to actually Aim and try to terminate your target. A swarmer can very well fend me off even at militia level. They can hide behind objects, they can keep throwing off my aim and also they can take me out... Atiim, you don't fly. I use proto swarms (actually no, they are pointless against armor vehicles) but they are well against shields and this buff will only throw off the balance. The regen thing is addressed by CCP in this post. Also, I would like to repeat myself in hopes that you understand: Swarm launcher- skill-less weapon, I know you don't fly nor have you flown long enough to see the horror. So stop being biased. Skill-less you say? What about being a 900 HP unit who gets 2 shot by Xt's? What about requiring prof AND reload AND ammo, simply to kill a double mlt rep Soma? What about sometimes, even needing to combine the Swarms with Ac nades AND a remote? Surely sacrificing 3 of my potential weapons for self defense for anti Tank is 'skilled' in that i'm specializing much more than rven Snipers or Scouts? What about the fact i need to 'swerve' my swarms whilst dodging Blaster fire while never takin my eyes off of him, and then staring at the sky to make sire they don't hit the grass? What 'skill' do you need to kill me in a ADS? About a week's worth of practice figuring how to stay level and 'aim' that swervy PoS reticule. Surely the only thing you have to do is hit me 3 times, while i have to unload MULTIPLE clips at maxed skills SIMPLY to kill your Mlt Module at worst, Full Prototype at best, Incubus, which, UNTIL BRAVO, has had an innate near 50% resist to everything i shoot? Surely you're being a Fotm scrub, relying on 43% resists and MWD mods to ensure you never die in your (isk isn't a balancing factor) 500k dropship? Incubus is OP, IK but I fight for Pythons What about railguns 2 hitting a 500k isk dropship What about RDV's Magically appearing out of no where killing my 500k isk drophip What about MCC missiles migically killing my 500k isk drophip What about swarms shoving my Python into builidings What about that one forgegunner or swarmer than can render me usless in a fight What about the 2.6 million SP I spent to get Python to level 5 What about the 500 isk sp I spent to get just turret operation level 5 so I can use missiles What about the 650k sp I spent to get prototype missiles What about the 900k sp I spent in Engineering to get a complex PG upgrade What about the 500k sp I spent getting the worthless small missile proficiency just so I can skill into optimization What about the 500k sp I spent to get missiles optimization to level 4 What about the 500k sp I spent to get missiles reload to level 4 What about the 500k sp I spent to get the ammo What about the 650k sp I spent into Shield modules so I can put on a complex heavy shield extender What about the 900k sp on top of that to fit it What about the 310k sp I spent to get ADV damage mods for my missiles What about the 400k sp I spent on shield depleted recharge delay skill to get it to level 3 What about the countless hours I spent learning to fly and still get killing by stupid collision damage and swarms knocking me into buildings. What about the countless times I have been drophip rammed What about the countless times I have been killed in under two seconds to militia railgun tank in the redline. What about the countless 500k isk pythons I lost. What about it man?

CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8091	Posted - 2014.06.11 22:14:00 - [230] - Quote Luther Mandrix wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, small update. I had a number wrong somewhere that made it seem like less damage. Chew on this instead Base 75% efficiency for swarms meaning: 60% against shields 90% against armour 75% against thruster shields 112.5% against thruster armour Note that this only affects swarms when shooting all dropships. This might not be a permanent move, as I might later decide to increase DS HP: if that happens, they'll move to standard 80/120 levels. Currently swarms lock the whole vehicle and can not be aimed at a weak spot on the vehicle, Will you make three aim spots on the dropship now? No. For the most part the bonus damage on the thrusters isn't going to come into play but it's still something that pilots should be aware of. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)


Lynn Beck Heaven's Lost Property 1767	Posted - 2014.06.11 22:21:00 - [231] - Quote You don't 'need' Xt-1's and Python 5 to kill me. All that is necessary is the ADS skillbook, and maybe Fitting Op 2 on Armor/shields. The rest is you simply 'becoming even better' at negating AV in its' entirety. Yes your Python is 2 shot by rails, i'm 2 shot by Shotguns, and even Mlt Snipers. Yes your python is knocked about senselessly by Swarmfire(python) but i'm a slow, weak, no grenade wielding Commando, which is 2 shot by even Mlt Missiles. Yes, flying a ADS needs at minimum 1.6 mill Iskto get into, AND a week of flying to 'git gud', but my Swarms ARE NOT skill-less. Because it assists me in aiming does NOT mean i deserve to be relegated to Flaylock Status. Because it 'locks' doesn't mean you should be immune. Because it shoots multiple bullets at once doesn't mean you should be 100% capable to dodge them. If you got hit by my swarms, it means i was waiting for you to be turned the other way, and still. In other words: you dun phucced up. If you continue to hang about after hearin my first volley even go off, then you deserve to be hit by the first volley, and maybe even 2nd. If you only move after being HIT, then you deserve to have 3 colleys in the air, chasing your slow-to-react ass. If you fail to dodge the right way, that's YOUR error, and deserve to be hit by my 4th, and killing, volley of swarms. The success of my Av depends ENTIRELY on how arrogant you are, and involves much more than 'i shot you in back, therefor u iz ded' My success depends on Psychological warfare, relying on giving you the impression of my being weak, and then SNAPPING right when you dive in to selfishly take those kills. Your success depends on hitting R1 and aiming at the right Chevron. Your non-death depends on you not Phuccing up, and flying near buildings when swarmers are present, or being greedy, those are YOUR phuccups, not CCP's. An ally calling an lav in at their redline, and the RDV deciding it needs to come from the ENEMY mcc? Yeah, i understand that. A enemy you're harassing calling in an Lav because he knows you won't see the RDV coming in, and will subsequently die? Once again. Your fault. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
nicholas73 Glitched Connection 151	Posted - 2014.06.11 22:24:00 - [232] - Quote wrote: Incubus is OP, IK but I fight for Pythons What about railguns 2 hitting a 500k isk dropship What about RDV's Magically appearing out of no where killing my 500k isk drophip What about MCC missiles migically killing my 500k isk drophip What about swarms shoving my Python into builidings What about that one forgegunner or swarmer than can render me usless in a fight What about the 2.6 million SP I spent to get Python to level 5 What about the 500 isk sp I spent to get just turret operation level 5 so I can use missiles What about the 650k sp I spent to get prototype missiles What about the 900k sp I spent in Engineering to get a complex PG upgrade What about the 500k sp I spent getting the worthless small missile proficiency just so I can skill into optimization What about the 500k sp I spent to get missiles optimization to level 4 What about the 500k sp I spent to get missiles reload to level 4 What about the 500k sp I spent to get the ammo What about the 650k sp I spent into Shield modules so I can put on a complex heavy shield extender What about the 900k sp on top of that to fit it What about the 310k sp I spent to get ADV damage mods for my missiles What about the 400k sp I spent on shield depleted recharge delay skill to get it to level 3 What about the countless hours I spent learning to fly and still get killing by stupid collision damage and swarms knocking me into buildings. What about the countless times I have been drophip rammed What about the countless times I have been killed in under two seconds to militia railgun tank in the redline. What about the countless 500k isk pythons I lost. What about it man? What about the skill of the pilot? I lose a lot of Pythons every now and then but I do get a lot of kills with it too. Fit it with the proper stuff and learn when to fly away. Current Favorite soundtrack The forums is my playground.
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1021	Posted - 2014.06.11 22:29:00 - [233] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: You don't 'need' Xt-1's and Python 5 to kill me. All that is necessary is the ADS skillbook, and maybe Fitting Op 2 on Armor/shields. The rest is you simply 'becoming even better' at negating AV in its' entirety. Yes your Python is 2 shot by rails, i'm 2 shot by Shotguns, and even Mlt Snipers. Yes your python is knocked about senselessly by Swarmfire(python) but i'm a slow, weak, no grenade wielding Commando, which is 2 shot by even Mlt Missiles. Yes, flying a ADS needs at minimum 1.6 mill Iskto get into, AND a week of flying to 'git gud', but my Swarms ARE NOT skill-less. Because it assists me in aiming does NOT mean i deserve to be relegated to Flaylock Status. Because it 'locks' doesn't mean you should be immune. Because it shoots multiple bullets at once doesn't mean you should be 100% capable to dodge them. If you got hit by my swarms, it means i was waiting for you to be turned the other way, and still. In other words: you dun phucced up. If you continue to hang about after hearin my first volley even go off, then you deserve to be hit by the first volley, and maybe even 2nd. If you only move after being HIT, then you deserve to have 3 colleys in the air, chasing your slow-to-react ass. If you fail to dodge the right way, that's YOUR error, and deserve to be hit by my 4th, and killing, volley of swarms. The success of my Av depends ENTIRELY on how arrogant you are, and involves much more than 'i shot you in back, therefor u iz ded' My success depends on Psychological warfare, relying on giving you the impression of my being weak, and then SNAPPING right when you dive in to selfishly take those kills. Your success depends on hitting R1 and aiming at the right Chevron. Your non-death depends on you not Phuccing up, and flying near buildings when swarmers are present, or being greedy, those are YOUR phuccups, not CCP's. An ally calling an lav in at their redline, and the RDV deciding it needs to come from the ENEMY mcc? Yeah, i understand that. A enemy you're harassing calling in an Lav because he knows you won't see the RDV coming in, and will subsequently die? Once again. Your fault. You don't need anything but a militia starter fit to kill me, just bump me in the wall like you scrubs always do. You're success is solely based on lock and shoot. No skill other than hiding in a building right after you fire. BTW- swarms chase for 400m (A-LOT) there is no way to avoid them to unless you run away and do the reversed loopty loop. Also- MCC missiles, Jilhad dropships, broken shield collision, RDV's are mechanic problems and are broken therefore they are not my fault. Anyway, no Python Pilot is stupid enough to just stand there and watch them selves burn. Pythons are Paper thin and any good pilot ditches right when they see the swarm. The Problem is with Incubus being able to take a million volleys.
Lynn Beck Heaven's Lost Property 1768	Posted - 2014.06.11 22:36:00 - [234] - Quote Again, it's your fault for sticking around building s and getting hit, that's a risk YOU were willing to take, and i used it to your loss. Also, continue to splash kill me with impunity when i DON'T have Av, scrub. We can do this all day in the Feedback thread, i don't mind being banned. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 27	Posted - 2014.06.11 22:41:00 - [235] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: Again, it's your fault for sticking around building s and getting hit, that's a risk YOU were willing to take, and i used it to your loss. Also, continue to splash kill me with impunity when i DON'T have Av, scrub. We can do this all day in the Feedback thread, i don't mind being banned. Noob just get out http://i.minus.com/ibb5lnAja1SSpa.gif Thats YOUR fault to sticking to open areas, that's a risk YOU were willing to take. I can do double standerds all day. Jerrmy12. Choo Choo
Lynn Beck Heaven's Lost Property 1769	Posted - 2014.06.11 22:56:00 - [236] - Quote Touch+¬ However i'm almost always indoors. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 28	Posted - 2014.06.11 22:57:00 - [237] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: Touch+¬ However i'm almost always indoors. Then you shouldn't be killed by them, it's really not that hard to avoid a drop ship. http://i.minus.com/ibb5lnAja1SSpa.gif Jerrmy12. Choo Choo
Lynn Beck Heaven's Lost Property 1769	Posted - 2014.06.11 23:01:00 - [238] - Quote Ahh, but you still go indoors, hence your dying to Mlt swarms VIA CRASHING!!! Ha. If by 'avoid' you mean using swarms, then 'i don't alwaus have them' If you meant 'dodge him' uhh.. Commando bro? Also, anything LESS tanky than Comando is 1 shot, and lacks any relevant DPS or anti-air support weapons, so don't say 'bring other suits' General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 30	Posted - 2014.06.11 23:41:00 - [239] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: Ahh, but you still go indoors, hence your dying to Mlt swarms VIA CRASHING!!! Ha. If by 'avoid' you mean using swarms, then 'i don't alwaus have them'(actually, i do. Because you guys plague every single match, and i get wonderful adrenaline by beating your entitled behinds into the ground, thus raising my payouts.) If you meant 'dodge him' uhh.. Commando bro? Also, anything LESS tanky than Comando is 1 shot, and lacks any relevant DPS or anti-air support weapons, so don't say 'bring other suits' Bring other suits And your swarms are lockon, and the only safe place for a dropship is outside, but infantry can go outside without dying, yet a dropship can't go near any walls without a huge risk of losing 500k in 1 unskillful bump by a swarm. Jerrmy12. Choo Choo
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9355	Posted - 2014.06.12 00:05:00 - [240] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: You don't need anything but a militia starter fit to kill me, just bump me in the wall like you scrubs always do. You're success is solely based on lock and shoot. No skill other than hiding in a building right after you fire. BTW- swarms chase for 400m (A-LOT) there is no way to avoid them to unless you run away and do the reversed loopty loop. Also- MCC missiles, Jilhad dropships, broken shield collision, RDV's are mechanic problems and are broken therefore they are not my fault. Anyway, no Python Pilot is stupid enough to just stand there and watch them selves burn. Pythons are Paper thin and any good pilot ditches right when they see the swarm. The Problem is with Incubus being able to take a million volleys. Perhaps your the scrub for allowing yourself to be bumped into the wall? Also, no. Success with the Swarm Launcher requires proper situational awareness, timing, coordination, and positioning, as well as resource management. If you lack any of these things, you will get the crap beaten out of you by any -competent- vehicle pilot. MCC Missiles are avoidable by being careful of how high/low your flying, Jihad Dropships are usually MLT/STD, making them easy to avoid, and the RDV mechanic is irrelevant to the discussion. As for Swarms chasing you to 400m, have you ever thought about taking cover behind a building? Swarm Launcher's aren't 'smart', and a nearby building can easily cause them to crash. Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical. -HAND

medomai grey warravens Final Resolution. 807	Posted - 2014.06.12 00:08:00 - [241] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, small update. I had a number wrong somewhere that made it seem like less damage. Chew on this instead Base 75% efficiency for swarms meaning: 60% against shields 90% against armour 75% against thruster shields 112.5% against thruster armour Note that this only affects swarms when shooting all dropships. This might not be a permanent move, as I might later decide to increase DS HP: if that happens, they'll move to standard 80/120 levels. Why does my dropship get special resistance values to swarms? That's just confusing and counter intuitive because it does not conform to the norm of how damage is applied. Please change the swarm damage efficiency back to the norm, 80/120. It's true that pythons are squishy, but I'm not sure that a base EHP buff is warranted. ADS are pretty mobile, if someone shoots me down while I'm retreating, they deserve to kill me. Edit: Also, can you check to see if its possible to make walls less sticky. Thanks. Medium frame EHP is not medium
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9355	Posted - 2014.06.12 00:11:00 - [242] - Quote duster 35000 wrote: Bring other suits So then you'll be okay with bringining another ADS, such as the Incubus in Hotfix Bravo? I'll take note of that. duster 35000 wrote: And your swarms are lockon, and the only safe place for a dropship is outside, but infantry can go outside without dying, yet a dropship can't go near any walls without a huge risk of losing 500k in 1 unskillful bump by a swarm. I've survived several "bumps" to the wall from a Swarm Launcher. Perhaps you should run try running HP modules and/or getting better at flying? Not to mention the fact that while the Python can strike at anytime without notice, there will always be audio and visual cues to tell the pilot where the SL user is, meaning that your hypothetical situation will never happen without the pilot being aware of it, which is an issue of -gross incompetence-. Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical. -HAND
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1692	Posted - 2014.06.12 00:27:00 - [243] - Quote Curious observation ... Bumped into Nyain San killsquads quite a 'bit today in Ambush. Was surprised to look up and see Python instead of Incubus. Nyain San is not known for running inferior gear. I ask this not to be coy, but because I'm truly curious... Why would they opt to fly an inferior Bird? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Pvt Numnutz Watchdoge Explosives 1459	Posted - 2014.06.12 00:53:00 - [244] - Quote Atiim wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: You don't need anything but a militia starter fit to kill me, just bump me in the wall like you scrubs always do. You're success is solely based on lock and shoot. No skill other than hiding in a building right after you fire. BTW- swarms chase for 400m (A-LOT) there is no way to avoid them to unless you run away and do the reversed loopty loop. Also- MCC missiles, Jilhad dropships, broken shield collision, RDV's are mechanic problems and are broken therefore they are not my fault. Anyway, no Python Pilot is stupid enough to just stand there and watch them selves burn. Pythons are Paper thin and any good pilot ditches right when they see the swarm. The Problem is with Incubus being able to take a million volleys. Perhaps your the scrub for allowing yourself to be bumped into the wall? Also, no. Success with the Swarm Launcher requires proper situational awareness, timing, coordination, and positioning, as well as resource management. If you lack any of these things, you will get the crap beaten out of you by any -competent- vehicle pilot. MCC Missiles are avoidable by being careful of how high/low your flying, Jihad Dropships are usually MLT/STD, making them easy to avoid, and the RDV mechanic is irrelevant to the discussion. As for Swarms chasing you to 400m, have you ever thought about taking cover behind a building? Swarm Launcher's aren't 'smart', and a nearby building can easily cause them to crash. Swarm launchers do take some skill to use as you say atiim. Though it does take less than forge and PLC users because they also have to aim. I'm beginning to question if you actually have flown an ads much at all. Dropships cant see 360 degrees even with gunners. You and I both know that swarms rarely hit buildings, if they do the swarm launcher is a scrub. Dropships also like to keep a healthy distance from buildings as a slight tap can cripple your ship. With the way swarms knock dropships (logibro what's your oreffered term for this?) Being near a building could mean death and if a swarmer gets into a position to knock you into a building (probably out of your FOV) even a milita swarm can down a proto dropship. Any pilot who has flown in combat situations knows this so.....do you really fly bro?
Lynn Beck Heaven's Lost Property 1771	Posted - 2014.06.12 00:54:00 - [245] - Quote Atiim wrote: duster 35000 wrote: Bring other suits So then you'll be okay with bringining another ADS, such as the Incubus in Hotfix Bravo? I'll take note of that. duster 35000 wrote: And your swarms are lockon, and the only safe place for a dropship is outside, but infantry can go outside without dying, yet a dropship can't go near any walls without a huge risk of losing 500k in 1 unskillful bump by a swarm. I've survived several "bumps" to the wall from a Swarm Launcher. Perhaps you should run try running HP modules and/or getting better at flying? Not to mention the fact that while the Python can strike at anytime without notice, there will always be audio and visual cues to tell the pilot where the SL user is, meaning that your hypothetical situation will never happen without the pilot being aware of it, which is an issue of -gross incompetence-. Add to that their 'growling' from the DS doesn't even have a direction, it's just applied locally to the listener. Yes, i understand you losing all of your HP to a wall, i lost an incubus(4300 armor) to a lightpole at 1.5MPH, so STFU about it bein Python specific. @ 'bring other suits' A sentinel is impossible to dodge with, while scouts/assaults are 1 shotted by all but Standard missiles, so no, i'm not goin to make your job MORE easy. Also Minmando grants a 36% DPS buff to swarms, which, without it, would mean i would either need: an additional swarmer to mimic a single Minmando, or have you be an idiot and fly within 20m of me so i can toss nades. Neither of those happens regularly, so i'm going to 3shot your entitled ass out of the sky(note: shield boosters automatically make it such that i need 4/5 volleys, meaning that i now need EVEN MORESO, the reload bonus of 25%, ontop of the 10% dmg bonus. Don't tell me how to do my job. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 30	Posted - 2014.06.12 00:55:00 - [246] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Curious observation ... Bumped into the same Nyain San killsquad several times today in Ambush. One of them was flying an ADS and another driving a Blaster Tank. Having followed this thread, I was surprised to the former favoring Python over Incubus. Nyain San is not known for running inferior gear. Why would they opt to fly an inferior Bird? Because they know they won't get shot and because higher rof. Choo Choo
Lynn Beck Heaven's Lost Property 1771	Posted - 2014.06.12 01:01:00 - [247] - Quote Anyways, back to OP, dropships having innate resists means: instead of requiring 80 dmg, even a 25% resist to swarms means the ADS now requires 100 damage to drop(which is a considerable increase to Blaster falloff) shield regen, along with automatic 25% automatic faster armor repairs(imagine the 519 Reps Madrugar having AN ADDITIONAL 25% to top it) meaning Incubuses now rep at close to 200/230(compared to typical 145 or 160) and also take 25% reduced damage, so it's still unfair to any infantry AVer. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
Pvt Numnutz Watchdoge Explosives 1459	Posted - 2014.06.12 01:08:00 - [248] - Quote Atiim wrote: Dropship and Assault Dropship Pilots will still have the ability to make quick work of an AVer (in a span of 2.4 seconds mind you), not to mention that they'll still have the ability to evade Swarms via cover (ie, flying behind a tower) as well as their trusty Afterburner. The Swarm Launcher adjustments won't change that. Where are you getting 2.4 seconds? What kind of situation is this? A python sneaks up behind a swarmed and shoots him? Let's say the swarmed and the python see each other, swarmed fires and locks the dropship which has to re adjust to get a shot by which time the swarmed has fired his second shot further knocking the dropship that now has to retreat from the engagementbefore the third shot kills him. 2.4 seconds....right... Again flying behind a tower doesn't protect you from swarms. They make crazy 90-¦ turns following the dropships exact flight path.

CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8101	Posted - 2014.06.12 01:09:00 - [249] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: Anyways, back to OP, dropships having innate resists means: instead of requiring 80 dmg, even a 25% resist to swarms means the ADS now requires 100 damage to drop(which is a considerable increase to Blaster falloff) shield regen, along with automatic 25% automatic faster armor repairs(imagine the 519 Reps Madrugar having AN ADDITIONAL 25% to top it) meaning Incubuses now rep at close to 200/230(compared to typical 145 or 160) and also take 25% reduced damage, so it's still unfair to any infantry AVer. Only applies to damage from swarms. All other damage sources apply damage at normal efficiency. Forge Guns (and swarms) will actually do more armour damage after the patch when we fix their prof skill bug. I'll be watching it closely, and if does seem too low, then I'll increase the effectiveness. A 65% increase in damage is a lot for one patch. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)

Lynn Beck Heaven's Lost Property 1771	Posted - 2014.06.12 01:12:00 - [250] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Anyways, back to OP, dropships having innate resists means: instead of requiring 80 dmg, even a 25% resist to swarms means the ADS now requires 100 damage to drop(which is a considerable increase to Blaster falloff) shield regen, along with automatic 25% automatic faster armor repairs(imagine the 519 Reps Madrugar having AN ADDITIONAL 25% to top it) meaning Incubuses now rep at close to 200/230(compared to typical 145 or 160) and also take 25% reduced damage, so it's still unfair to any infantry AVer. Only applies to damage from swarms. All other damage sources apply damage at normal efficiency. Forge Guns (and swarms) will actually do more armour damage after the patch when we fix their prof skill bug. I'll be watching it closely, and if does seem too low, then I'll increase the effectiveness. A 65% increase in damage is a lot for one patch. True, looking forward to it. Also, apologies for the ranty page of 'my role has more skill than yours', i get a bit emotional when people try and pull a Flaylock on me. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!

Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1661	Posted - 2014.06.12 01:25:00 - [251] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Atiim wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: good job, you fked up dropships espeically shield who will now be three swamred by proto swarms. Thank you CCP, that's just what we needed, a python made of air instead of paper. Ironically, the Python would still have a higher TTK than the Swarm Launcher user. Go fly a python and tell me if you get over 10 kills, you're such a scrub. You know nothing but and only root for the sht you put SP in. I am glad swarms are getting buffed, incubus were impossible to kill with swarm, great, but you forgot that this buff throws off Python balance by like a lot. Also did I forget to mention that to fly a python and actually kill, you don't just lock on to your targets while being invisible? A swarmer is invisible to a ADS pilot from 80 meters? Did you know swarms knock ADS's upside down? Oh wait, what do you know, you don't fly. I have! o/ If I'd known there was a contest coming up I'd have taken a snapshot. MLT missiles, Python, 13 kills, lost 1 Python to getting bounced off the road when I flew too low (tower forge shot me from above, had no idea ADS's could bounce like that before blowing up lol) Also, Proficiency 5 in both Swarm Launchers and SMG's. In case you were wondering. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569* Cross Atu for CPM1
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1661	Posted - 2014.06.12 01:32:00 - [252] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Too far Logibro, way way too far. And if you want to use my hard earned ISK to see if we start "dropping for the skies", then how about, until you actually have real data you make them cost 70k, so I dont lose all my money while you see how it goes? I've always been in favor of large price drops when testing new things, I'm all for this one. Hell, I'd take it as far as 50k just so you could fit a couple things on it besides turret and still loose a few without going ISK negative. There's no need to risk bankrupting our pilots. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Pvt Numnutz Watchdoge Explosives 1459	Posted - 2014.06.12 01:39:00 - [253] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Anyways, back to OP, dropships having innate resists means: instead of requiring 80 dmg, even a 25% resist to swarms means the ADS now requires 100 damage to drop(which is a considerable increase to Blaster falloff) shield regen, along with automatic 25% automatic faster armor repairs(imagine the 519 Reps Madrugar having AN ADDITIONAL 25% to top it) meaning Incubuses now rep at close to 200/230(compared to typical 145 or 160) and also take 25% reduced damage, so it's still unfair to any infantry AVer. Only applies to damage from swarms. All other damage sources apply damage at normal efficiency. Forge Guns (and swarms) will actually do more armour damage after the patch when we fix their prof skill bug. I'll be watching it closely, and if does seem too low, then I'll increase the effectiveness. A 65% increase in damage is a lot for one patch. Does this mean swarms have been doing max damage to shield ships? Meaning prof skill was still giving the swarms full damage against shields and armor? If so then with the resist changes will swarms be doing more damage to shields? Or the same?
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1661	Posted - 2014.06.12 01:44:00 - [254] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: A few things. Ill chart it up tonight. Post tomorrow when I have the numbers. But in a nutshell these changes are based of the numbers, like damage and efficiency. They do not account for how the battle actually is. Hers iis just one example - impulse. Swarms knock us all over the place. Each missile hits 1 after the other and we cannot aim at the target. We can only shoot between volleys, and by adding more missiles we will likely have a tiny window to fight back. No, were going to have to run after we see the first volley of militia swarms knowing the second one is already locked and loaded, also knowing that the first volley is either going to push us into a wall, the ground. The least it can do is take away 1/3 of our shields and there is no way to avoid it. Exactly. You think we we just AB away now, Soon As i see that first shot I will run. Not fight. YOu will get less battles between swarms and dropships. Swarmers may find they get less kills and more frustrating fights. Actually, since these changes effect more than just ADSs and DSs, I think swarmers will be seeing MORE kills and LESS frustrating fights. We are a rare breed these days since EVERYTHING escapes us excluding completely incompetent vehicle drivers and pilots, almost everyone sticks to forge guns and tanks for AV now for a reason. As for ADSs I'm hoping Logibro holds to his word and keeps a close eye on this, because I'm thinking that now swarms are going to be viable AV again (bringing it within range of forges and rail tanks), we may need to buff base eHP for ADS's to keep the AV weapons balanced against each other and against other vehicles. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Lynn Beck Heaven's Lost Property 1776	Posted - 2014.06.12 02:11:00 - [255] - Quote Does shield dropships have innate resistances as well? Because i find them easier to kill than tanks- especially considering Pythons. If this is specific to Armor Dropships, Why? Shouldn't that be what Armor hardeners are for? It makes no sense to me that, i i'm using my scoutsuit with Av nades(that actually managed to hit an Ads only repping at 100, using State St's) is inable to actually kill one, even when: 2 packed Av nades landed 6 Wyrrkomi Swarms hit, with Reload 3 He even hit a wall on the way out. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 263	Posted - 2014.06.12 02:20:00 - [256] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: Atiim wrote: Dropship and Assault Dropship Pilots will still have the ability to make quick work of an AVer (in a span of 2.4 seconds mind you), not to mention that they'll still have the ability to evade Swarms via cover (ie, flying behind a tower) as well as their trusty Afterburner. The Swarm Launcher adjustments won't change that. Where are you getting 2.4 seconds? What kind of situation is this? A python sneaks up behind a swarmed and shoots him? Let's say the swarmed and the python see each other, swarmed fires and locks the dropship which has to re adjust to get a shot by which time the swarmed has fired his second shot further knocking the dropship that now has to retreat from the engagementbefore the third shot kills him. 2.4 seconds....right... Again flying behind a tower doesn't protect you from swarms. They make crazy 90-¦ turns following the dropships exact flight path. Not sure what Atiim's 2.4 seconds was in reference to, but for your edification, a default swarm launcher takes 1.4 seconds to get a target lock, every time you want to fire, when a target is within range. Training proficiencies can reduce the lock time by TENTHS of seconds, so at proto level the time it takes to launch two volleys of swarms is close to 2.4 seconds. Also, swarms might make occasional 90% turns, but they certainly do NOT follow "the dropships exact flight path". They take a more direct path to where the target is - if a target is moving and changes direction, the missiles change their line to target also. This is why we see so many missiles try to shortcut through a building when a vehicle circles the other side of said building... Or why missiles want to burrow into the ground when a vehicle travels over the crest of a hill. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1 Appia Vibbia for CPM1
Pvt Numnutz Watchdoge Explosives 1459	Posted - 2014.06.12 02:49:00 - [257] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: Atiim wrote: Dropship and Assault Dropship Pilots will still have the ability to make quick work of an AVer (in a span of 2.4 seconds mind you), not to mention that they'll still have the ability to evade Swarms via cover (ie, flying behind a tower) as well as their trusty Afterburner. The Swarm Launcher adjustments won't change that. Where are you getting 2.4 seconds? What kind of situation is this? A python sneaks up behind a swarmed and shoots him? Let's say the swarmed and the python see each other, swarmed fires and locks the dropship which has to re adjust to get a shot by which time the swarmed has fired his second shot further knocking the dropship that now has to retreat from the engagementbefore the third shot kills him. 2.4 seconds....right... Again flying behind a tower doesn't protect you from swarms. They make crazy 90-¦ turns following the dropships exact flight path. Not sure what Atiim's 2.4 seconds was in reference to, but for your edification, a default swarm launcher takes 1.4 seconds to get a target lock, every time you want to fire, when a target is within range. Training proficiencies can reduce the lock time by TENTHS of seconds, so at proto level the time it takes to launch two volleys of swarms is close to 2.4 seconds. Also, swarms might make occasional 90% turns, but they certainly do NOT follow "the dropships exact flight path". They take a more direct path to where the target is - if a target is moving and changes direction, the missiles change their line to target also. This is why we see so many missiles try to shortcut through a building when a vehicle circles the other side of said building... Or why missiles want to burrow into the ground when a vehicle travels over the crest of a hill. When a swarm initially fires it goes for a straight path, after it follows for a little bit it does follow the exact path. I had cut corners so close to buildings there should have locked the swarms but they instead followed my exact path and hit me. I have seen it countless times, do a hard bank and then spin the dropship around to see the swarms follow exactly where I went, making sharp turns to hit right where I turn my dropship.
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14436	Posted - 2014.06.12 02:55:00 - [258] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Anyways, back to OP, dropships having innate resists means: instead of requiring 80 dmg, even a 25% resist to swarms means the ADS now requires 100 damage to drop(which is a considerable increase to Blaster falloff) shield regen, along with automatic 25% automatic faster armor repairs(imagine the 519 Reps Madrugar having AN ADDITIONAL 25% to top it) meaning Incubuses now rep at close to 200/230(compared to typical 145 or 160) and also take 25% reduced damage, so it's still unfair to any infantry AVer. Only applies to damage from swarms. All other damage sources apply damage at normal efficiency. Forge Guns (and swarms) will actually do more armour damage after the patch when we fix their prof skill bug. I'll be watching it closely, and if does seem too low, then I'll increase the effectiveness. A 65% increase in damage is a lot for one patch. Yay, because Forge Guns don't already make **** soup of Incubus @_@ WTB armor hardeners that aren't 100% worthless
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 31	Posted - 2014.06.12 03:00:00 - [259] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Anyways, back to OP, dropships having innate resists means: instead of requiring 80 dmg, even a 25% resist to swarms means the ADS now requires 100 damage to drop(which is a considerable increase to Blaster falloff) shield regen, along with automatic 25% automatic faster armor repairs(imagine the 519 Reps Madrugar having AN ADDITIONAL 25% to top it) meaning Incubuses now rep at close to 200/230(compared to typical 145 or 160) and also take 25% reduced damage, so it's still unfair to any infantry AVer. Only applies to damage from swarms. All other damage sources apply damage at normal efficiency. Forge Guns (and swarms) will actually do more armour damage after the patch when we fix their prof skill bug. I'll be watching it closely, and if does seem too low, then I'll increase the effectiveness. A 65% increase in damage is a lot for one patch. Yay, because Forge Guns don't already make **** soup of Incubus @_@ WTB armor hardeners that aren't 100% worthless Yea they went too far on the hardeners because of reps, now they nerfed heavy reps with a giant nerfbat. I expect a skill increase for 5% to 7% per level for armor rep skill. Choo Choo
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 264	Posted - 2014.06.12 03:03:00 - [260] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: bogeyman m wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: Atiim wrote: Dropship and Assault Dropship Pilots will still have the ability to make quick work of an AVer (in a span of 2.4 seconds mind you), not to mention that they'll still have the ability to evade Swarms via cover (ie, flying behind a tower) as well as their trusty Afterburner. The Swarm Launcher adjustments won't change that. Where are you getting 2.4 seconds? What kind of situation is this? A python sneaks up behind a swarmed and shoots him? Let's say the swarmed and the python see each other, swarmed fires and locks the dropship which has to re adjust to get a shot by which time the swarmed has fired his second shot further knocking the dropship that now has to retreat from the engagementbefore the third shot kills him. 2.4 seconds....right... Again flying behind a tower doesn't protect you from swarms. They make crazy 90-¦ turns following the dropships exact flight path. Not sure what Atiim's 2.4 seconds was in reference to, but for your edification, a default swarm launcher takes 1.4 seconds to get a target lock, every time you want to fire, when a target is within range. Training proficiencies can reduce the lock time by TENTHS of seconds, so at proto level the time it takes to launch two volleys of swarms is close to 2.4 seconds. Also, swarms might make occasional 90% turns, but they certainly do NOT follow "the dropships exact flight path". They take a more direct path to where the target is - if a target is moving and changes direction, the missiles change their line to target also. This is why we see so many missiles try to shortcut through a building when a vehicle circles the other side of said building... Or why missiles want to burrow into the ground when a vehicle travels over the crest of a hill. When a swarm initially fires it goes for a straight path, after it follows for a little bit it does follow the exact path. I had cut corners so close to buildings there should have locked the swarms but they instead followed my exact path and hit me. I have seen it countless times, do a hard bank and then spin the dropship around to see the swarms follow exactly where I went, making sharp turns to hit right where I turn my dropship. Pics/vids/links or it didn't happen. Otherwise, nope. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1 Appia Vibbia for CPM1

DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14438	Posted - 2014.06.12 03:06:00 - [261] - Quote duster 35000 wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Anyways, back to OP, dropships having innate resists means: instead of requiring 80 dmg, even a 25% resist to swarms means the ADS now requires 100 damage to drop(which is a considerable increase to Blaster falloff) shield regen, along with automatic 25% automatic faster armor repairs(imagine the 519 Reps Madrugar having AN ADDITIONAL 25% to top it) meaning Incubuses now rep at close to 200/230(compared to typical 145 or 160) and also take 25% reduced damage, so it's still unfair to any infantry AVer. Only applies to damage from swarms. All other damage sources apply damage at normal efficiency. Forge Guns (and swarms) will actually do more armour damage after the patch when we fix their prof skill bug. I'll be watching it closely, and if does seem too low, then I'll increase the effectiveness. A 65% increase in damage is a lot for one patch. Yay, because Forge Guns don't already make **** soup of Incubus @_@ WTB armor hardeners that aren't 100% worthless Yea they went too far on the hardeners because of reps, now they nerfed heavy reps with a giant nerfbat. I expect a skill increase for 5% to 7% per level for armor rep skill. Wait, what happened to heavy rep? Right now the only really viable Incubus build is heavy plate heavy rep, if they nerfed it...I'm not even going to bother to fly anymore.
Thang Bausch Pierrot Le Fou Industries 167	Posted - 2014.06.12 03:13:00 - [262] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: bogeyman m wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: Atiim wrote: Dropship and Assault Dropship Pilots will still have the ability to make quick work of an AVer (in a span of 2.4 seconds mind you), not to mention that they'll still have the ability to evade Swarms via cover (ie, flying behind a tower) as well as their trusty Afterburner. The Swarm Launcher adjustments won't change that. Where are you getting 2.4 seconds? What kind of situation is this? A python sneaks up behind a swarmed and shoots him? Let's say the swarmed and the python see each other, swarmed fires and locks the dropship which has to re adjust to get a shot by which time the swarmed has fired his second shot further knocking the dropship that now has to retreat from the engagementbefore the third shot kills him. 2.4 seconds....right... Again flying behind a tower doesn't protect you from swarms. They make crazy 90-¦ turns following the dropships exact flight path. Not sure what Atiim's 2.4 seconds was in reference to, but for your edification, a default swarm launcher takes 1.4 seconds to get a target lock, every time you want to fire, when a target is within range. Training proficiencies can reduce the lock time by TENTHS of seconds, so at proto level the time it takes to launch two volleys of swarms is close to 2.4 seconds. Also, swarms might make occasional 90% turns, but they certainly do NOT follow "the dropships exact flight path". They take a more direct path to where the target is - if a target is moving and changes direction, the missiles change their line to target also. This is why we see so many missiles try to shortcut through a building when a vehicle circles the other side of said building... Or why missiles want to burrow into the ground when a vehicle travels over the crest of a hill. When a swarm initially fires it goes for a straight path, after it follows for a little bit it does follow the exact path. I had cut corners so close to buildings there should have locked the swarms but they instead followed my exact path and hit me. I have seen it countless times, do a hard bank and then spin the dropship around to see the swarms follow exactly where I went, making sharp turns to hit right where I turn my dropship. I've been using swarms for a year and they always take the direct path. It's why I shoot at odd angles (and why there is still non-twitch skill to use swarms) to adjust the trajectory of the direct path so it will hopefully still hit a tank or DS as it goes over a hill or around a corner.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 2618	Posted - 2014.06.12 03:22:00 - [263] - Quote We are delaying all these changes due to the discovery of two bugs that we need to fix and test first. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"



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