Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill.
Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful.

We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship.

Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in.

Minmando proto swarmer, L5 prof.:

First, I do believe Dropships should have an escape route via line of sight or altitude.

However, swarms now do not do enough damage for 1 kind of dropship in particular - one of the assault kinds can just absorb swarm after swarm and not flinch. With that particular variant, it's swarm 1, 2, 3, reload, 4,5,6, reload, 7 8 9, dead by dropship fire (or infantry). Dropship pilot laughing all the while as in "why do they even bother?"

The first swarm acts as flares that tell everyone where the swarmer is, so the rendering point doesn't seem compelling to me.

The "transport" type dropship seems vulnerable to the right degree. I'm able to take those down if they don't take evasive maneuvers.

Also, any kind of dropship can flay away an infinite number of times, whereas a swarmer will run out of ammo eventually. This is a huge advantage to dropships (especially those that can absorb so many swarms).

I'd like to see a change to the "invulnerable" assault dropship - that has to go for balance. Everything else could remain as-is, as far as I'm concerned.

Whatever you do, please do NOT split swarms into different types. I've sunk so much SP into a relatively ineffective weapon that, if you split it and therefore made it less effective against certain vehicles (even if it was more effective on others), I would quit running it and probably quit the game for being just completely hopeless against vehicles.

Pythons are fine vs av. I have a pro fit, and 1 good swarmer can chase me off with a 1 round hitting me, and running from the other 1-2 rnds he got off, even if they only chase me off for a limited amount of time. They are where they need to be.

Forges, already 2 hit-3 hit my python. And if there is 1 good forger, I can kiss bombing runs good bye.

I also have a prof 5 swarm launcher, and after 1 rnd hits them, they high-tail it out of there, (of course i have 2 other rounds immediately fired as well, and, if all 3 do hit, they die, unless they have a shield booster they hit at just the right moment.. But bottom line is, they are counter-able, 1 person can chase them off easily, Even if it's only for a limited amount of time. You just need to invest the sp, and stop crying about it.

Now my incubus on the other hand, I can put 2 basic heavy reps on that sucker, and tank 1 normal swarm guy all day long. Forges, if they're more than 1 of them, or a swarm launcher with a fg helping, can turn me away quickly.

And while using my swarm launcher, i can launch a volley of 3 shots, and by the time i've reloaded, generally they're back to full health, glaring at me, I can almost hear them asking, why for you shoot me? (same with the repper maddies) I normally die after my first volley . :)


Maybe this leads back to the stacked armor repairs being op by being able to tank av, or people not willing to spec fully into an av weapon, and use teamwork to counter something.
I go for the latter.

When there is a match with good av guys on the field, who know what they're doing, my dropships/tanks get downed pretty instantly.

One major thing I've noticed is the lock range being a problem, not just that it's short, but it's said to be 200m, I've had dropships and tanks at 165m and still unable to lock them. Many times this is when I am high up and the target closer to the ground.

You should be saying, "that incubus just out tanks my av dps, why bother with it when i can 3 hit that python"

@ Sir Dukey
Fascinating perspectives. Would you mind detailing for us (1) how you fit your Python and (2) which pertinent skills you've invested in?

Why do you suspect your observations differ so starkly with those of every AVer in this thread?

Thank you.

Alright, so I'm going to put some of my early thoughts here. None of this is final and is highly dependent on your feedback

* Reduce ADS price to 250,000 ISK
* Swarms to 150m, Assault Swarms to 200m
* Buff base dropship health a little (not ADS)
* Increase swarm reserve ammo
* Reduce physical impulse on Assault Swarms
* Slight increase to physical impulse on Swarms
* Increase Assault Swarm speed, reduce tracking and flight time. Total range will still be slightly higher. Max Rotation rate is currently 90 degrees, will try 60 first.
* Increase Standard Dropship speed (140 -> 160)
* Increase missiles to 6/7/8, reduce damage to compensate (165) to close gap between standard, advanced and prototype.
* Reduce Assault Swarm damage (looking at 10% initially)

Vehicle Armour Repairers need a big hit with a nerf bat, so I'll also look at those. However they are a much wider issue, so that might take some more time.

The resistance profiles for swarms also seem a bit strange, so I'll dig into those as well.

I saw someone mention afterburners increasing damage taken as a thought, and from what I can see that might be possible, but that's going into mad science territory at this stage and I haven't given it much thought yet.

Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target?

I'll only comment on the points that I have issues with - everything else seems reasonable...

Please do NOT nerf standard swarm range - I think it should be buffed to 200m. It still takes close to a second and a half to target-lock and those vehicles are moving. Good luck getting close enough on foot in Commando suit. I still don't understand why it takes the same lock-time for a 50m target as it does for a 150m target. Longer lock times for farther targets solves this issue without nerfing range. A distant moving/flying target has a greater chance of escape; a closer stationary target, less so.

Adding a weaker, 225m-250m Assault variant makes sense as does a stronger, 150m-175m Breach variant (for HAVs?). Not sure about the value of the Specialist model.

I think swarm missiles should be faster than all vehicles without burners, but probably slower than those with. So make whatever corrections needed there.

Increasing missile count while reducing damage per missile seems a reasonable way to flatten the damage curve from std to proto, but the bug that allows ADSs to shield regenerate throughout a missile volley impact because individual missile damage is to low needs to be corrected.

Standard swarm missile smarts need to be improved some to reduce the odds of hitting inanimate things like molehills and building cross-beams - especially if the number of missiles are to be increased. HOWEVER, adding a chance variable that causes random missiles to miss their target a (very) small percentage of the time even if they run into nothing else on route seems fair and would reward pilot skill.

I'm pretty sure that we can reduce that threshold from 102 to 80-75 or even lower safely (anything that isn't an AV weapon already has a really low multiplier so shouldn't interfere still). There's also a strange thing I've found with the resistances for dropships against swarms (the 55% efficiency people have mentioned), so fixing that might solve a lot of problems.

PG/CPU modifications are something we've considered, but that's a little beyond the scope of Bravo. Chances are we won't touch them this time around and leave them for another hotfix.

Swarm Range is the biggest thing I'll need feedback for, as it's hard to duplicate actual battlefield conditions with less people.

There is no damage nerf, prototype damage is the same and standard and advanced are higher. Swarms have the advantage in that they can lockon to their targets, which gives a much higher amount of accuracy.

We are talking about vehicle sized targets here.
In the range that the swarm launcher can actually lock on, a forge gun can VERY EASILY hit.

It takes a lot of skill to MISS at that point.

Alright, after having dug a little further I'm likely going to start from scratch with most changes after I figure out what's going on with the resistances to swarms on the ADS.

The Assault name on the Swarms is flexible. Main point is we're taking away the current assault swarms and replacing them with something else (Tactical I'm partial to, Breach I would prefer to leave for a single shot version).

Idea with the new swarms is to make them faster, but also less agile so that a dropship pilot that's on the ball can better manouvre to avoid them. The standard swarms will be shorter range but higher damage, more suited for taking out ground targets. I forgot to mention I'm also looking at lowering the lock on times

There's a few numbers I can play with as far as speed goes such as acceleration (linear only), initial speed and max speed. I'll be doing some testing later this week to get a feel for different variations, but feel free to make suggestions. Other things like making them shoot in a straight line for a longer period of time so you have to actually shoot them where you think the dropship is going is another thought I've had.

Damage for the most part I'll stay away from increasing at Prototype (I'm happy with the numbers from standard and advanced with more missiles) for now again due to the funky resistances. As far as making sure they still interrupt shield regen, I'll have to wait till I've sorted resistances before I tweak that but I'm looking to make sure that they can do so still with one hardener (haven't decided on two yet). I'll also double check impulse to make sure we're not massively increasing it.

Alright, after having dug a little further I'm likely going to start from scratch with most changes after I figure out what's going on with the resistances to swarms on the ADS.

The Assault name on the Swarms is flexible. Main point is we're taking away the current assault swarms and replacing them with something else (Tactical I'm partial to, Breach I would prefer to leave for a single shot version).

Idea with the new swarms is to make them faster, but also less agile so that a dropship pilot that's on the ball can better manouvre to avoid them. The standard swarms will be shorter range but higher damage, more suited for taking out ground targets. I forgot to mention I'm also looking at lowering the lock on times

There's a few numbers I can play with as far as speed goes such as acceleration (linear only), initial speed and max speed. I'll be doing some testing later this week to get a feel for different variations, but feel free to make suggestions. Other things like making them shoot in a straight line for a longer period of time so you have to actually shoot them where you think the dropship is going is another thought I've had.

Damage for the most part I'll stay away from increasing at Prototype (I'm happy with the numbers from standard and advanced with more missiles) for now again due to the funky resistances. As far as making sure they still interrupt shield regen, I'll have to wait till I've sorted resistances before I tweak that but I'm looking to make sure that they can do so still with one hardener (haven't decided on two yet). I'll also double check impulse to make sure we're not massively increasing it.

wow.. you people are hilarious.

you actually say that swarms are a "weapon to chase away dropships"

the term "weapon" should be the clue here people.
they fire missiles as in things designed to destroy vehicles.

in case ccp decide that they should be for chasing away vehicles, I will point out that invariably the pilot goes away repairs and returns.
if that is what it's supposed to to do then it needs to become equipment as it is designed to be unable to kill ANYTHING.

"the swarm launcher requires no skill"
ok it locks on and chases it's target....
the person using it has to rely on their secondary weapon in order to survive, if your not in a commando suit then that means a sidearm.
they also need to get into range against either a fast moving lav, a powerful and probably equipped with hardeners tank which is more than likely looking for infantry to kill, or finding a way, on foot to close in against something that flies...
after they actually achieve that they then need to lock on and fire more than once.
They have to do all of this without being noticed by scouts, heavies or snipers (in my main role av people are often a high priority target.)

You people seem to honestly believe that the reward for all of that work and investment of sp should be assist points at best, that their main goal is to just chase away the pilot.

how are they supposed to earn war points then?

"dropships are harassment vehicles"
Really? ok I must be imagining things when my corp mates can get over twenty kills per round or even go tank hunting.
I don't disagree with them having this ability, I just don't like to see people spout bs in order to deny other players a genuine way to play the game.


onto the actual subject.

I actually agree with other ideas that go along the idea of swarms for ground av/ air av, one having more power the other more range.

I Completely disagree with the idea of any weapon designed to not kill anything. people don't design weapons to be a deterrent.
not even things like emp, stun weapons, mace sprays etc are not designed to deter, they are designed to subdue.

I Agree that dropship pilots have a lot of skill involved in what they do, and should certainly not be in a situation where they can't play the game either... under no excuse should anybody ask for a weapon to obliterate a vehicle in one shot, it is a tricky thing to balance.

but if the answer is to stay that swarmers can't realistically destroy vehicles then there will need to be big changes to war points and the expectation that players need to put serious sp into a weapon that fills their main slot but can't kill.


sometime ago it was pointed out that swarms do not do the damage they are supposed to.

my suggestion would be to buff swarms a LITTLE AND fix the swarm damage issues then afterwards if there is an imbalance do more to fix it in another hotfix, I would personally like to see changes to missile speed, range and damage, I believe that extra range to lock on will be too much for the pilots. the idea here is that when a swarmer gets within range they are a genuine threat that can't simply outrun the missles,
an aware pilot can chose to leave earlier, get their squad to deal with the swarmer or run the very real risk of being killed.

sorry if this seems one sided, but at the moment ads, etc can kill easily swarmers can't.

Still doesn't change the fact that the Swarm Launcher has no use against infantry, while other AV items such as the Forge Gun, Plasma Cannon, and Remote Explosive do.

Sidearms/Secondary Weapons are irrelevant when discussing AV weapons in the same sense that the Dropsuit being used inside a vehicle is irrelevant when referring to vehicles.

Alright, so here's the plan.

First things first: We're going ahead with the missile number change for the swarm launcher. You can see them at the bottom of this sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dRIiqkQK4S1_NmisVxjvaBgrEtMcX-D8qz0cR4d_fV4/edit#gid=1310924977

Second: We're reducing the cost of ADS to 250,000ISK

Third: We're changing the efficiency of swarm launchers to dropships from a flat 55% on shield and armour to standard resistances (80% for shields, 120%). We're also correcting the efficiency on their thrusters (their weak point) which will now also be changed to standard (100% for shields, 150% for armour)

Fourth: We're looking at lowering the minimum threshold to interrupt shield recharge from 102 to 80.

Fifth: While technically not a design change, we're fixing the proficiency skill for any weapon that is armour bonused not working against vehicles. This includes both swarms and forge guns.

Due to the massive change that number three is bringing, I won't want to make any further changes until I see how it evens out. If dropships start falling from the sky too quickly, we can look at lowering swarm efficiency against dropships again. If it seems to be fine, then we can look at making some swarm variants and further tweaks to the base swarm launcher (EM Swarm Launcher bonused by Amarr Commandos anyone?)

I think you are making an assumption and missing the point... As a fan of both my proto swarms and my proto SMGs, there are not a lot of suit options where they can both fit and be fast enough that the SMG would be practical as a primary infantry weapon. Sure, they both fit on a Minmando, but it's not that fast and has a high scan sig. I don't know if they could both fit on a proto Scout suit as I'm not levelled that high yet.

I hate dropships as much as the guy next to me, and mind you it will be fun blowing them out of the sky, but I do hope you will be adjusting the Ehp on the ADS with the other dropships so that they are not complete paper tigers. Yes I fully agree with the adjustments in armor resistance and shield resistance and the change to the damage threshold. I however, will suggest that Ehp on dropships will need to be modified in order to well survive since Dropships and ADS are known for having low armor and shield, what kept them alive so well (OP as they were) was all the things that were botched when dealing with them. I hope you change the numbers of Ehp on them first before deciding to mess to much with the resistances or bonuses against dropships.

Ironically, the Python would still have a higher TTK than the Swarm Launcher user.

The point is that to survive against a competent infantry player, you need to be highly skilled as your weapon does literally nothing against infantry. While those weapons may be relatively useless (due to being able to theoretically kill infantry), the Swarm Launcher is completely useless against infantry.



So then we could also make vehicles [completely] useless against infantry simply due to the fact that pilots can use other gear -besides their vehicle- to destroy the AVer? I mean after all, while the vehicle may be useless, but that doesn't mean the player is... right?

The point is that to survive against a competent infantry player, you need to be highly skilled as your weapon does literally nothing against infantry. While those weapons may be relatively useless (due to being able to theoretically kill infantry), the Swarm Launcher is completely useless against infantry.



So then we could also make vehicles [completely] useless against infantry simply due to the fact that pilots can use other gear -besides their vehicle- to destroy the AVer? I mean after all, while the vehicle may be useless, but that doesn't mean the player is... right?

Dropship and Assault Dropship Pilots will still have the ability to make quick work of an AVer (in a span of 2.4 seconds mind you), not to mention that they'll still have the ability to evade Swarms via cover (ie, flying behind a tower) as well as their trusty Afterburner. The Swarm Launcher adjustments won't change that.

Not to mention that an increase of DS/ADS eHP would have to result in an increase in damage from other AV weapons, or you'll risk making other AV choices underpowered against them.

Calls someone an idiot, the proceeds to commit a logical fallacy in the exact same post.

Troll or Lol?

Yes, I'm aware that this change makes dropships much more vulnerable to swarm launchers. But this resistance issue has been causing a lot of other knock on issues that we can't even look at until it's been resolved.

I will definitely be keeping a very close eye on Dropships after Bravo.

A few things. Ill chart it up tonight. Post tomorrow when I have the numbers. But in a nutshell these changes are based of the numbers, like damage and efficiency. They do not account for how the battle actually is.

Hers iis just one example - impulse. Swarms knock us all over the place. Each missile hits 1 after the other and we cannot aim at the target. We can only shoot between volleys, and by adding more missiles we will likely have a tiny window to fight back.

Considering how I quite literally use every weapon & role in DUST, I'd be hard not to root for the items i have SP in. Should I take this as a compliment?

You may not have to lock onto the infantry, but you are instantly aware of his location the second he fires his swarms at you, allowing you to seek and destroy him, which isn't really hard once you get Caldari Assault Dropships III.



Yeah, nice try.

I've been flying Pythons for nearly 3 weeks now, and I can confidently say that while they do knock you around, they do not flip you completely over. Well unless your fighting multiple Swarm users, but that's a different story...

no one notices that swarms were doing 55% damage, likely before the fact it does 70% of that right? while i don't fly dropships,
220 *0.55=121*0.7=84.7 per missle to shields, and i believe i saw something about 120 damage needed to stop shield regen.
maybe CCP should show live test video of these new stats in action, see what happens?

I'm pretty sure that we can reduce that threshold from 102 to 80-75 or even lower safely (anything that isn't an AV weapon already has a really low multiplier so shouldn't interfere still). There's also a strange thing I've found with the resistances for dropships against swarms (the 55% efficiency people have mentioned), so fixing that might solve a lot of problems.

PG/CPU modifications are something we've considered, but that's a little beyond the scope of Bravo. Chances are we won't touch them this time around and leave them for another hotfix.

Swarm Range is the biggest thing I'll need feedback for, as it's hard to duplicate actual battlefield conditions with less people.

There is no damage nerf, prototype damage is the same and standard and advanced are higher. Swarms have the advantage in that they can lockon to their targets, which gives a much higher amount of accuracy.

You piloting a Python for a year doesn't change the fact that:

• Swarm Launchers don't completely flip Pythons over; making your statement a lie
• A Python has the ability to kill an AVer quickly; and these SL changes won't prevent that from happening.

The amount of time you've been piloting Pythons doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of of things you've recently posted in this discussion is drivel. Time Gëá Credibility.

Not actually sure what that has to do with anything really, but the fact that I've beaten and out-scored players who are better than you'll ever be, I'll take your statement about me being a scrub with a grain of salt.


Don't recally seeing a Swarm Launcher user say that they don'tt stop Shield Regen on a Python. Do you have a quote or may I place this statement in the trash pile with the rest of your fallacious drivel?

Uh. Complex plate on a Incubus makes it LITERALLY impossible to sway, unless you're hit directly in te engine by Railguns types, Swarms hav no ability for that.

The afterburner is a dropships countermeasure.
Against forge guns it allows us to change direction suddenly it orbit quickly throwing off his aim a bit, not always effective depending on the skill of the forge gunner but helps none the less. Against swarms it allows us to clear the lock range and potentially out run a volly if we can get the speed up in time. Doesn't always work but does get the ship out of lock range.

It is incredibly difficult to fight a forge gunner without an after burner, especially a good one. You can't maneuver fast enough to dodge his shots. With swarms you simply cannot dodge their missiles once locked, with out an afterburner you will get hit, unless you get lucky and it hits a part of a building but that's rare, especially with good swarmers.

It should be a well known fact at this point that infantry don't render well for dropships, as judge has shown in his videos dropship pilots are most of the time blind to threats around them. I fly with gunners and for what ever reason infantry render much better for them, so sometimes they tell me "hey I need you to get me higher" "red to our right 3 o'clock" etc etc because I can't see the target and they know so they give me the information I need to give them an angle.
Most of the times I've been killed by av was because of a milita swarm shooting at me, when I go to engage suddenly 1-2 forge guns fire from right next to the swarm and down me. No render just blue balls of death. This happens a lot with swarms too, the swarms hit from outside my fov, though I can't tell where because the hit marker tells me the opposite direction and the swarms don't render when I turn to see where they are coming from. My only option is to retreat rep my shields try and guess where they were, or I don't go back meaning the swarms have protected their area.

Personally I think one proto fit swarm should be a serious threat to my proto fit dropship, if I mess up he kills me, if I am smart and retreat using my countermeasure I keep my ship and limp back to a supply depo. A proto swarm and another swarm launcher working together with communication should be able to kill me, as I am also using teamwork with a gunner to kill them.

An important note for you Rattati, v/av balance is very delicate. I'm in favor of buffing swarms a little, maybe 80-100 DMG nothing too crazy because if a single swarm can shoot down a dropship then any av combination will easily down a dropship. Swarms are the easiest av, you don't have to aim as much as a forge or plc. Forge guns require skill and very good aim and battles against them are fun and challenging for both parties involved. Not saying swarms require no skill but they don't require as much as their counterparts.

The scariest aspect with buffing swarms in my mind is the forge swarm combo. Skilled av teams will gave the forge engage first and fight the dropship while the swarm holds fire, an assault dropship might be able to fight a single forge gunner but not a forge with swarm support. Ads shots will be too off target to effectively fight. Instead the swarm waits till the forge has damaged the dropship significantly and fires before he retreats catching the ads pilot off guard. These new assault swarms you've suggested sound perfect for that role and I'm all for a chase missile specifically for fighting dropships. However the damage has to be less than other swarms because they are effectively fighting my only defense against their weapon.

I hope you read all of this but TL:DR in case your busy.

Rendering is a serious issue for pilots that can be helped by having gunners assist in threat/target identification as they have better rendering.
Swarms are almost balanced but could use a little bit of a buff to their DMG to make them more of a viable threat to assault dropships. They should not be over buffed with added range or excessive DMG increase. If a single swarm can down a proto fit dropship with ease then any combination of av can easily down an assault dropship.
Changing the assault swarm to be a sort of anti dropship variant is a great idea so long as they trade anti afterburner hitting ability for DMG. This encourages teamwork.

Skill-less you say?

What about being a 900 HP unit who gets 2 shot by Xt's?

What about requiring prof AND reload AND ammo, simply to kill a double mlt rep Soma?

What about sometimes, even needing to combine the Swarms with Ac nades AND a remote? Surely sacrificing 3 of my potential weapons for self defense for anti Tank is 'skilled' in that i'm specializing much more than rven Snipers or Scouts?

What about the fact i need to 'swerve' my swarms whilst dodging Blaster fire while never takin my eyes off of him, and then staring at the sky to make sire they don't hit the grass?

What 'skill' do you need to kill me in a ADS? About a week's worth of practice figuring how to stay level and 'aim' that swervy PoS reticule. Surely the only thing you have to do is hit me 3 times, while i have to unload MULTIPLE clips at maxed skills SIMPLY to kill your Mlt Module at worst, Full Prototype at best, Incubus, which, UNTIL BRAVO, has had an innate near 50% resist to everything i shoot?

Surely you're being a Fotm scrub, relying on 43% resists and MWD mods to ensure you never die in your (isk isn't a balancing factor) 500k dropship?

You don't 'need' Xt-1's and Python 5 to kill me.

All that is necessary is the ADS skillbook, and maybe Fitting Op 2 on Armor/shields.

The rest is you simply 'becoming even better' at negating AV in its' entirety.

Yes your Python is 2 shot by rails, i'm 2 shot by Shotguns, and even Mlt Snipers.

Yes your python is knocked about senselessly by Swarmfire(python) but i'm a slow, weak, no grenade wielding Commando, which is 2 shot by even Mlt Missiles.

Yes, flying a ADS needs at minimum 1.6 mill Iskto get into, AND a week of flying to 'git gud', but my Swarms ARE NOT skill-less. Because it assists me in aiming does NOT mean i deserve to be relegated to Flaylock Status.

Because it 'locks' doesn't mean you should be immune.

Because it shoots multiple bullets at once doesn't mean you should be 100% capable to dodge them.

If you got hit by my swarms, it means i was waiting for you to be turned the other way, and still. In other words: you dun phucced up.

If you continue to hang about after hearin my first volley even go off, then you deserve to be hit by the first volley, and maybe even 2nd.

If you only move after being HIT, then you deserve to have 3 colleys in the air, chasing your slow-to-react ass. If you fail to dodge the right way, that's YOUR error, and deserve to be hit by my 4th, and killing, volley of swarms.

The success of my Av depends ENTIRELY on how arrogant you are, and involves much more than 'i shot you in back, therefor u iz ded'

My success depends on Psychological warfare, relying on giving you the impression of my being weak, and then SNAPPING right when you dive in to selfishly take those kills.

Your success depends on hitting R1 and aiming at the right Chevron.
Your non-death depends on you not Phuccing up, and flying near buildings when swarmers are present, or being greedy, those are YOUR phuccups, not CCP's.

An ally calling an lav in at their redline, and the RDV deciding it needs to come from the ENEMY mcc? Yeah, i understand that.

A enemy you're harassing calling in an Lav because he knows you won't see the RDV coming in, and will subsequently die? Once again. Your fault.