DUST Search - [Feedback] Swarms and Dropships

medomai grey wrote:

Baal Omniscient wrote:

Either you have no idea how to hold down the L1 button and give your ship a 45 degree tilt to reach max speed, or you are lying through your teeth intentionally. I have a Python too, and with only basic modules. I can outrun swarms as long as I see them launched and there is a suitable distance between us for me to get a full tilt going for a second or two, no afterburner needed. Quit trying to exaggerate the situation. No point in even reading the rest of your post since your premise is a sham from the start. Either quit exaggerating or L2ADS, whichever suits your current situation.

Also, the whole idea of swarms is for them to be smart missiles. They would't make good smart missiles if they didn't track you at least moderately well. For a faster VARIANT of swarms with a longer range (50-75m ish), loosing a chunk off the tracking ability of the missiles would be fine. Allowing a good pilot to outmaneuver missiles would not only make the longer range more balanced, it would add flavor to AV v Vehicle play. But current swarms (with perhaps 50ish meters less range than current swarms but with more damage) need their tracking to remain in order to deal with LAV's and CQC dropships/tanks.

There is a difference between lying and being factually wrong, the difference being belief. To go straight to accusations of lying and calling someone a noob is pretty damn offensive.

You may be right in me over exaggerating the mechanics. I'm going to have to do some testing. In the mean time, put a muzzle on your anger, relax, have a nice cup of tea. There was nothing in my post that should have warranted that much hate.

I'm not demanding that swarms should have shoddy tracking ability. The current swarms have extremely good tracking ability; being able to do 180 degree turns, following you behind cover, etc. So when I said "drastically reduce their tracking ability", I meant reduce it so that it tracks ok. Although I do understand how that could be misinterpreted and that's my fault for not being clear enough.

I am not proposing that swarm tracking ability be reduced across the board; only those that have their flight speed increased.

I'm glad that you at least agree with the conclusion from my "sham" premise.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 12 post(s)
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1595	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:27:00 - [1] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I am going to tackle the question specifically in a new video,. But If you have not really fought swarms in a dropship watch this overview video of what it is like from and ADS view and why swarms often fail. It is 17 minutes long but shows some of the issues we face. I will, as I said, make a more detailed and specific responce for CCP and post it here too. That way we can talk about facts, not myth. Note the "damage mod active" message is a bug. It sometimes sticks to the swarm after you die fighting a tank with a damage mod on, which happend to me in that battle Fact: Smacking dropships into buildings with your swarms is not a valid tactic because it can only happen in very specific situations, from very specific angles and is very unreliable. Myth: Swarmers don't use tactics because they can just lock-on and look elsewhere. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1596	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:39:00 - [2] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill. Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful. We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship. Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in. Most dropship's ability to tank damage isn't an issue for me personally since I've had proficiency 5 swarms since Uprising 1.0, but anyone with even slightly less damage output than I do must be going crazy over it. Except for the absolute best of ADS ships, I can keep DPS up on them enough to kill them if they are around long enough. I'm actually thinking you should increase the DS's resistance to rails since rail sniping them out of the air is ridiculously easy (I've been testing out both ADS's this week). As far as swarm balance goes: Regular swarms need to have a beefier hit to them. If these are to be the CQC swarms, they need more damage and more in a clip, perhaps with a slight (SLIGHT!) lock-on and flight range drop to make room for: The assault swarms need to have slightly less damage than current swarms, but with more lock-on and flight range and a much faster missile. ~Swarmer Since Replication PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1599	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:12:00 - [3] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: There is something being overlooked here. The ability to kill a dropship and how that can be done, and how long it takes is one side of the discussion. The other side we must consider is threat level. How much threat is a dropship. Forget Ambush, it's broken. In Skirmish and Domination does an ADS, which is a full on proto asset pose as much threat as a full on proto infantry player? I have been tracking kills. I posted this data before but I'll mention it here again. In 36 matches where I did not fly but another pilot on our team did, the other ADS never went higher that 6th on the kill chart, getting at best around 15 kills, averaging 7 kills. In all cases Infantry of similar proto level easily out killed the dropship. Please avoid posting examples from each end of the bell curve, they are not representative. My point here is to remember to factor in the threat level when deciding on the measure of the response. CCP perhaps you might take a look at what are considered top pilots. Do a database query of the top 10. Pull all dom and skrimish matches for these players and count the ADS weapon kills per match. Exactly how dangerous are we? TL;DR: Basically I'm saying you should not be comparing ADS pilots to infantry slayers as that's not who they contend with, you should be comparing them to infantry AV players. Specifically swarmers in this case since this is what we are attempting to balance. We have to basically go off of first hand experience until CCP posts up some numbers. In my personal experience, proper ADS pilots are more effective at helping their team than AV are at helping theirs. A good ADS is a highly mobile gunship that easily softens enemy targets for allied infantry with the capability to OHK about half of the suits in the game. The only real enemy to contend with is the rail tanker and the occasional proto forge gunner, and to be fair there are quite a few rail tankers out there these days. A swarmer is running around the field with one weapon that can only fend off vehicles and has their high slots used up on damage mods to get as much out of their AV weapon as possible. This means they are in a weakened suit with only a sidearm to defend themselves against LAV/logi-repped heavies, cloaked/damped/superscanner RE/shotty scouts and the occasional eHP tanked assault or Logi. That's not even to mention the tanks, DS, ADS and death taxi LAV's that just try to run you over So, in my personal experience, being a solo ADS pilot flying for your team allows you to be a far better asset to your team than being a solo swarmer trying to deal with vehicles for your team. THIS is what needs to be fixed. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1604	Posted - 2014.06.09 14:39:00 - [4] - Quote My point still stands, you should be comparing an ADS pilot's average scores to swarmers average scores to balance swarms, not an ADS pilot's score to an infantry slayer's scores. You see a 100% swarm runner at the top of the board about as often as you see a unicorn on the moon. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1610	Posted - 2014.06.09 17:10:00 - [5] - Quote This is my proto-swarm AV fitting. I have 618 eHP and only an SMG to defend myself with. I have to run a cardiac regulator in order to ensure I have the stamina to keep running away from infantry/towards fleeing vehicles and I have to run a reactive plate because every eHP counts in this fit but I still need reps. I run a compact hive because this fitting really doesn't survive long enough to use up anything better in most situations, even if I could fit it. I can only run a single damage module because I need to use every high slot possible to keep me alive. And I run a proto assault SMG on my sidearm because it's the only thing that gives me a chance of taking someone out at a distance before they can run up and shotty/HMG me into oblivion. This fitting runs168,720isk and I typically loose at least one suit while trying to AV any given ADS/tank to either infantry or the vehicle itself. More often than not, to the infantry or a second vehicle that backs up the first vehicle though. Let's say I only loose 1 AV suit for every vehicle I fight on a map and the enemy runs 5 tanks or ADS's. That means in AV fittings alone that match, I lost 843,600isk. More often than not I die on my way back to the supply depot after killing off any vehicle (this is AFTER loosing one initial suit to infantry while AVing), which means that per vehicle I typically loose a total of 337,440isk. THIS is why you rarely see me or another swarmer out there trying anymore, because it's not just the DIFFICULTY of the task at hand, it's almost just as expensive for me to kill an ADS pilot as it is for the ADS pilot to loose his ship. And that's IF I can manage to kill it. If I can't, I spend the entire match loosing AV fit after AV fit trying to dodge infantry in order to get an occasional shot off at it to keep it off my teammates. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1633	Posted - 2014.06.10 10:47:00 - [6] - Quote medomai grey wrote: (For the record, I only fly pythons. Don't know about incubus. As such, ADS opinion below only applies to pythons.) You can't simply improve swarm launcher flight speed without reducing tracking ability. Swarm launchers are only deficient in their lower tier damage. They have a flight speed that can only be outrun by using after burners and a tracking ability that makes them virtually impossible to shake. Either you have no idea how to hold down the L1 button and give your ship a 45 degree tilt to reach max speed, or you are lying through your teeth intentionally. I have a Python too, and with only basic modules. I can outrun swarms as long as I see them launched and there is a suitable distance between us for me to get a full tilt going for a second or two, no afterburner needed. Quit trying to exaggerate the situation. No point in even reading the rest of your post since your premise is a sham from the start. Either quit exaggerating or L2ADS, whichever suits your current situation. Also, the whole idea of swarms is for them to be smart missiles. They would't make good smart missiles if they didn't track you at least moderately well. For a faster VARIANT of swarms with a longer range (50-75m ish), loosing a chunk off the tracking ability of the missiles would be fine. Allowing a good pilot to outmaneuver missiles would not only make the longer range more balanced, it would add flavor to AV v Vehicle play. But current swarms (with perhaps 50ish meters less range than current swarms but with more damage) need their tracking to remain in order to deal with LAV's and CQC dropships/tanks. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1641	Posted - 2014.06.10 22:01:00 - [7] - Quote medomai grey wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Either you have no idea how to hold down the L1 button and give your ship a 45 degree tilt to reach max speed, or you are lying through your teeth intentionally. I have a Python too, and with only basic modules. I can outrun swarms as long as I see them launched and there is a suitable distance between us for me to get a full tilt going for a second or two, no afterburner needed. Quit trying to exaggerate the situation. No point in even reading the rest of your post since your premise is a sham from the start. Either quit exaggerating or L2ADS, whichever suits your current situation. Also, the whole idea of swarms is for them to be smart missiles. They would't make good smart missiles if they didn't track you at least moderately well. For a faster VARIANT of swarms with a longer range (50-75m ish), loosing a chunk off the tracking ability of the missiles would be fine. Allowing a good pilot to outmaneuver missiles would not only make the longer range more balanced, it would add flavor to AV v Vehicle play. But current swarms (with perhaps 50ish meters less range than current swarms but with more damage) need their tracking to remain in order to deal with LAV's and CQC dropships/tanks. There is a difference between lying and being factually wrong, the difference being belief. To go straight to accusations of lying and calling someone a noob is pretty damn offensive. You may be right in me over exaggerating the mechanics. I'm going to have to do some testing. In the mean time, put a muzzle on your anger, relax, have a nice cup of tea. There was nothing in my post that should have warranted that much hate. I'm not demanding that swarms should have shoddy tracking ability. The current swarms have extremely good tracking ability; being able to do 180 degree turns, following you behind cover, etc. So when I said "drastically reduce their tracking ability", I meant reduce it so that it tracks ok. Although I do understand how that could be misinterpreted and that's my fault for not being clear enough. I am not proposing that swarm tracking ability be reduced across the board; only those that have their flight speed increased. I'm glad that you at least agree with the conclusion from my "sham" premise. Actually, I would like to apologize for my behavior last night. I had been drinking, had been ignored by Judge all day despite my direct comments towards his points (guess he doesn't like people critical of his last swarm video perhaps?), and RL right now is hell (I'll cut it short at that). Not making exceuses for my behavior, just saying I apologize for allowing my personal matters to turn me into such a trolly ass yesterday. Unfortunately you weren't the only target here in the forums either... v_v Cuppa sounds pretty good right about now actually Thank you for having some decency when mine took a leave of absence. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1641	Posted - 2014.06.10 22:08:00 - [8] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target? [/quote] Maybe as an alt fire mode, but not as a main variant. It's bad enough right now having a weapon that can only sometimes kill vehicles. At half damage you'd never kill one, just slow it down enough that some random forge gunner on the other side of the map or redline railgunner will snag it out of the sky. It's a nice thought, but would a) make it too easy for rails/forgers (as if it wasn't easy enough for them already...) and b) would do very little AV work for the swarmer himself. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1644	Posted - 2014.06.11 01:35:00 - [9] - Quote One further idea I've been mulling over, which would help narrow the gap between STD/ADV/PRO so you can focus more closely on damage.range.tracking issues. Make STD/ADV/PRO swarms all fire the same number of missiles but increase the lock on speed and clip size as the tiers go up. Possibly capacity too, but I won't push that. Example: Say all swarm launchers fire 4 missiles and all missiles do the same amount of damage across all tiers (as they do now). Say the STD swarm launcher has a 2 second lock-on time with missile volleys 4 in a clip. You then make the ADV swarms have a 1.4 second lock-on time with 5 volleys in the clip. And then you make the PRO swarms have a 0.8 second lock-on time with volleys 6 in the clip. This effectively increases the DPS of higher tiered swarms without adding more missiles per volley. And it also rewards you for running a gimped suit with only a side arm for personal defense by reducing your need to reload as the tier of your weapon goes up. (not actual suggested numbers, just the first numbers to spring to mind) This would allow you to balance swarms tiers and swarm DPS without increasing the damage of the swarm volley's, just increasing the swarms volley output potential. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1649	Posted - 2014.06.11 14:30:00 - [10] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Lowering the damage of Swarm missiles, and adding more rockets seems like a nerf to me. Now more of my missiles have to hit to do the same damage as before. Swarms may be "smart" with the lock-on, but they are dumb as hell when it comes to tiny hills and buildings. Swarms are already terrible anywhere but out in the open, and this makes them even worse imho. Not to mention we already have issues with rendering/latency where swarms disappear and even an issue where they don't always all fire properly. Wouldn't more missiles cause more issues? PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1

Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1661	Posted - 2014.06.12 01:25:00 - [11] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Atiim wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: good job, you fked up dropships espeically shield who will now be three swamred by proto swarms. Thank you CCP, that's just what we needed, a python made of air instead of paper. Ironically, the Python would still have a higher TTK than the Swarm Launcher user. Go fly a python and tell me if you get over 10 kills, you're such a scrub. You know nothing but and only root for the sht you put SP in. I am glad swarms are getting buffed, incubus were impossible to kill with swarm, great, but you forgot that this buff throws off Python balance by like a lot. Also did I forget to mention that to fly a python and actually kill, you don't just lock on to your targets while being invisible? A swarmer is invisible to a ADS pilot from 80 meters? Did you know swarms knock ADS's upside down? Oh wait, what do you know, you don't fly. I have! o/ If I'd known there was a contest coming up I'd have taken a snapshot. MLT missiles, Python, 13 kills, lost 1 Python to getting bounced off the road when I flew too low (tower forge shot me from above, had no idea ADS's could bounce like that before blowing up lol) Also, Proficiency 5 in both Swarm Launchers and SMG's. In case you were wondering. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569* Cross Atu for CPM1
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1661	Posted - 2014.06.12 01:32:00 - [12] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Too far Logibro, way way too far. And if you want to use my hard earned ISK to see if we start "dropping for the skies", then how about, until you actually have real data you make them cost 70k, so I dont lose all my money while you see how it goes? I've always been in favor of large price drops when testing new things, I'm all for this one. Hell, I'd take it as far as 50k just so you could fit a couple things on it besides turret and still loose a few without going ISK negative. There's no need to risk bankrupting our pilots. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1661	Posted - 2014.06.12 01:44:00 - [13] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: A few things. Ill chart it up tonight. Post tomorrow when I have the numbers. But in a nutshell these changes are based of the numbers, like damage and efficiency. They do not account for how the battle actually is. Hers iis just one example - impulse. Swarms knock us all over the place. Each missile hits 1 after the other and we cannot aim at the target. We can only shoot between volleys, and by adding more missiles we will likely have a tiny window to fight back. No, were going to have to run after we see the first volley of militia swarms knowing the second one is already locked and loaded, also knowing that the first volley is either going to push us into a wall, the ground. The least it can do is take away 1/3 of our shields and there is no way to avoid it. Exactly. You think we we just AB away now, Soon As i see that first shot I will run. Not fight. YOu will get less battles between swarms and dropships. Swarmers may find they get less kills and more frustrating fights. Actually, since these changes effect more than just ADSs and DSs, I think swarmers will be seeing MORE kills and LESS frustrating fights. We are a rare breed these days since EVERYTHING escapes us excluding completely incompetent vehicle drivers and pilots, almost everyone sticks to forge guns and tanks for AV now for a reason. As for ADSs I'm hoping Logibro holds to his word and keeps a close eye on this, because I'm thinking that now swarms are going to be viable AV again (bringing it within range of forges and rail tanks), we may need to buff base eHP for ADS's to keep the AV weapons balanced against each other and against other vehicles. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1