DUST Search - [Feedback] Swarms and Dropships

lithkul devant wrote:

CCP Logibro wrote:

Alright, so I'm going to put some of my early thoughts here. None of this is final and is highly dependent on your feedback

* Reduce ADS price to 250,000 ISK
* Swarms to 150m, Assault Swarms to 200m
* Buff base dropship health a little (not ADS)
* Increase swarm reserve ammo
* Reduce physical impulse on Assault Swarms
* Slight increase to physical impulse on Swarms
* Increase Assault Swarm speed, reduce tracking and flight time. Total range will still be slightly higher. Max Rotation rate is currently 90 degrees, will try 60 first.
* Increase Standard Dropship speed (140 -> 160)
* Increase missiles to 6/7/8, reduce damage to compensate (165) to close gap between standard, advanced and prototype.
* Reduce Assault Swarm damage (looking at 10% initially)

Vehicle Armour Repairers need a big hit with a nerf bat, so I'll also look at those. However they are a much wider issue, so that might take some more time.

The resistance profiles for swarms also seem a bit strange, so I'll dig into those as well.

I saw someone mention afterburners increasing damage taken as a thought, and from what I can see that might be possible, but that's going into mad science territory at this stage and I haven't given it much thought yet.

Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target?

While I think your intentions might be good on this, I think you are doing it wrong.

1. When you reduce the damage of swarm missiles you reduce the possible chance for them to break the regen cycle. Aka shields will not even slow down and the damage you just applied will mean nothing.

2. Armor repairs do not need a huge nerf on how much they repair per tick, they need a nerf on CPU/PG so that you can not make yourself invincible to most forms of damage, such as only being able to have 2 max on or hardwire it so that you can only have 1 possible. (As you said tank to tank combat is in a good place)

3. Swarm launchers have to short of a range as is, to make it even shorter just puts them more at risk. So much so I will retire my Swarm launcher fit if the max range is 150 for the standard. Because the FG out damages it and out ranges it and even pushes the dropship more then the SL does. Not to mention the PLC might be becoming an actual AV weapon, which again will out perform the SL.

4. Exactly why are you making a weapon, that has literally one function, which is to shoot vehicles less effective then weapons that can actually do damage to infantry as well major example the forge gun? That right their is a huge nerf, due to having to rely upon others to protect them most times.

Though the other changes you are proposing would be very nice, if you need me to I can easily find plenty of videos of SL not doing enough damage to break regen cycles. A SL that provides a slowing buff would be awesome, but I bet every tanker and ADS pilot will complain that it is OP within seconds.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 12 post(s)

CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8022	Posted - 2014.06.10 12:12:00 - [1] - Quote Alright, so I'm going to put some of my early thoughts here. None of this is final and is highly dependent on your feedback * Reduce ADS price to 250,000 ISK * Swarms to 150m, Assault Swarms to 200m * Buff base dropship health a little (not ADS) * Increase swarm reserve ammo * Reduce physical impulse on Assault Swarms * Slight increase to physical impulse on Swarms * Increase Assault Swarm speed, reduce tracking and flight time. Total range will still be slightly higher. Max Rotation rate is currently 90 degrees, will try 60 first. * Increase Standard Dropship speed (140 -> 160) * Increase missiles to 6/7/8, reduce damage to compensate (165) to close gap between standard, advanced and prototype. * Reduce Assault Swarm damage (looking at 10% initially) Vehicle Armour Repairers need a big hit with a nerf bat, so I'll also look at those. However they are a much wider issue, so that might take some more time. The resistance profiles for swarms also seem a bit strange, so I'll dig into those as well. I saw someone mention afterburners increasing damage taken as a thought, and from what I can see that might be possible, but that's going into mad science territory at this stage and I haven't given it much thought yet. Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target? CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)


CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8027	Posted - 2014.06.10 14:31:00 - [2] - Quote lithkul devant wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so I'm going to put some of my early thoughts here. None of this is final and is highly dependent on your feedback * Reduce ADS price to 250,000 ISK * Swarms to 150m, Assault Swarms to 200m * Buff base dropship health a little (not ADS) * Increase swarm reserve ammo * Reduce physical impulse on Assault Swarms * Slight increase to physical impulse on Swarms * Increase Assault Swarm speed, reduce tracking and flight time. Total range will still be slightly higher. Max Rotation rate is currently 90 degrees, will try 60 first. * Increase Standard Dropship speed (140 -> 160) * Increase missiles to 6/7/8, reduce damage to compensate (165) to close gap between standard, advanced and prototype. * Reduce Assault Swarm damage (looking at 10% initially) Vehicle Armour Repairers need a big hit with a nerf bat, so I'll also look at those. However they are a much wider issue, so that might take some more time. The resistance profiles for swarms also seem a bit strange, so I'll dig into those as well. I saw someone mention afterburners increasing damage taken as a thought, and from what I can see that might be possible, but that's going into mad science territory at this stage and I haven't given it much thought yet. Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target? While I think your intentions might be good on this, I think you are doing it wrong. 1. When you reduce the damage of swarm missiles you reduce the possible chance for them to break the regen cycle. Aka shields will not even slow down and the damage you just applied will mean nothing. 2. Armor repairs do not need a huge nerf on how much they repair per tick, they need a nerf on CPU/PG so that you can not make yourself invincible to most forms of damage, such as only being able to have 2 max on or hardwire it so that you can only have 1 possible. (As you said tank to tank combat is in a good place) 3. Swarm launchers have to short of a range as is, to make it even shorter just puts them more at risk. So much so I will retire my Swarm launcher fit if the max range is 150 for the standard. Because the FG out damages it and out ranges it and even pushes the dropship more then the SL does. Not to mention the PLC might be becoming an actual AV weapon, which again will out perform the SL. 4. Exactly why are you making a weapon, that has literally one function, which is to shoot vehicles less effective then weapons that can actually do damage to infantry as well major example the forge gun? That right their is a huge nerf, due to having to rely upon others to protect them most times. Though the other changes you are proposing would be very nice, if you need me to I can easily find plenty of videos of SL not doing enough damage to break regen cycles. A SL that provides a slowing buff would be awesome, but I bet every tanker and ADS pilot will complain that it is OP within seconds. I'm pretty sure that we can reduce that threshold from 102 to 80-75 or even lower safely (anything that isn't an AV weapon already has a really low multiplier so shouldn't interfere still). There's also a strange thing I've found with the resistances for dropships against swarms (the 55% efficiency people have mentioned), so fixing that might solve a lot of problems. PG/CPU modifications are something we've considered, but that's a little beyond the scope of Bravo. Chances are we won't touch them this time around and leave them for another hotfix. Swarm Range is the biggest thing I'll need feedback for, as it's hard to duplicate actual battlefield conditions with less people. There is no damage nerf, prototype damage is the same and standard and advanced are higher. Swarms have the advantage in that they can lockon to their targets, which gives a much higher amount of accuracy. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)


CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8030	Posted - 2014.06.10 15:26:00 - [3] - Quote As it turns out, I found a bug that means the Forge Gun and Swarm weren't getting their proficiency skill bonuses against vehicle armour on HAVs and Dropships. I think I'll look at fixing that. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)


CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8046	Posted - 2014.06.10 19:19:00 - [4] - Quote Alright, after having dug a little further I'm likely going to start from scratch with most changes after I figure out what's going on with the resistances to swarms on the ADS. The Assault name on the Swarms is flexible. Main point is we're taking away the current assault swarms and replacing them with something else (Tactical I'm partial to, Breach I would prefer to leave for a single shot version). Idea with the new swarms is to make them faster, but also less agile so that a dropship pilot that's on the ball can better manouvre to avoid them. The standard swarms will be shorter range but higher damage, more suited for taking out ground targets. I forgot to mention I'm also looking at lowering the lock on times There's a few numbers I can play with as far as speed goes such as acceleration (linear only), initial speed and max speed. I'll be doing some testing later this week to get a feel for different variations, but feel free to make suggestions. Other things like making them shoot in a straight line for a longer period of time so you have to actually shoot them where you think the dropship is going is another thought I've had. Damage for the most part I'll stay away from increasing at Prototype (I'm happy with the numbers from standard and advanced with more missiles) for now again due to the funky resistances. As far as making sure they still interrupt shield regen, I'll have to wait till I've sorted resistances before I tweak that but I'm looking to make sure that they can do so still with one hardener (haven't decided on two yet). I'll also double check impulse to make sure we're not massively increasing it. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)


CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8066	Posted - 2014.06.11 08:47:00 - [5] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: As it turns out, I found a bug that means the Forge Gun and Swarm weren't getting their proficiency skill bonuses against vehicle armour on HAVs and Dropships. I think I'll look at fixing that. While your at it, can you also fix the damage profiles of railgun turrets? They currently do +10% damage against shields and -10% damage against armor, when they should do the opposite. I'll look into it. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)


CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8079	Posted - 2014.06.11 18:09:00 - [6] - Quote Alright, so here's the plan. First things first: We're going ahead with the missile number change for the swarm launcher. You can see them at the bottom of this sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dRIiqkQK4S1_NmisVxjvaBgrEtMcX-D8qz0cR4d_fV4/edit#gid=1310924977 Second: We're reducing the cost of ADS to 250,000ISK Third: We're changing the efficiency of swarm launchers to dropships from a flat 55% on shield and armour to standard resistances (80% for shields, 120%). We're also correcting the efficiency on their thrusters (their weak point) which will now also be changed to standard (100% for shields, 150% for armour) Fourth: We're looking at lowering the minimum threshold to interrupt shield recharge from 102 to 80. Fifth: While technically not a design change, we're fixing the proficiency skill for any weapon that is armour bonused not working against vehicles. This includes both swarms and forge guns. Due to the massive change that number three is bringing, I won't want to make any further changes until I see how it evens out. If dropships start falling from the sky too quickly, we can look at lowering swarm efficiency against dropships again. If it seems to be fine, then we can look at making some swarm variants and further tweaks to the base swarm launcher (EM Swarm Launcher bonused by Amarr Commandos anyone?) CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)


CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8087	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:49:00 - [7] - Quote Yes, I'm aware that this change makes dropships much more vulnerable to swarm launchers. But this resistance issue has been causing a lot of other knock on issues that we can't even look at until it's been resolved. I will definitely be keeping a very close eye on Dropships after Bravo. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)


CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8088	Posted - 2014.06.11 20:10:00 - [8] - Quote Alright, small update. I had a number wrong somewhere that made it seem like less damage. Chew on this instead Base 75% efficiency for swarms meaning: 60% against shields 90% against armour 75% against thruster shields 112.5% against thruster armour Note that this only affects swarms when shooting all dropships. Sorry for the panic attack. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)


CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8091	Posted - 2014.06.11 22:14:00 - [9] - Quote Luther Mandrix wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, small update. I had a number wrong somewhere that made it seem like less damage. Chew on this instead Base 75% efficiency for swarms meaning: 60% against shields 90% against armour 75% against thruster shields 112.5% against thruster armour Note that this only affects swarms when shooting all dropships. This might not be a permanent move, as I might later decide to increase DS HP: if that happens, they'll move to standard 80/120 levels. Currently swarms lock the whole vehicle and can not be aimed at a weak spot on the vehicle, Will you make three aim spots on the dropship now? No. For the most part the bonus damage on the thrusters isn't going to come into play but it's still something that pilots should be aware of. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)


CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8101	Posted - 2014.06.12 01:09:00 - [10] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: Anyways, back to OP, dropships having innate resists means: instead of requiring 80 dmg, even a 25% resist to swarms means the ADS now requires 100 damage to drop(which is a considerable increase to Blaster falloff) shield regen, along with automatic 25% automatic faster armor repairs(imagine the 519 Reps Madrugar having AN ADDITIONAL 25% to top it) meaning Incubuses now rep at close to 200/230(compared to typical 145 or 160) and also take 25% reduced damage, so it's still unfair to any infantry AVer. Only applies to damage from swarms. All other damage sources apply damage at normal efficiency. Forge Guns (and swarms) will actually do more armour damage after the patch when we fix their prof skill bug. I'll be watching it closely, and if does seem too low, then I'll increase the effectiveness. A 65% increase in damage is a lot for one patch. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)