My point still stands, you should be comparing an ADS pilot's average scores to swarmers average scores to balance swarms, not an ADS pilot's score to an infantry slayer's scores. You see a 100% swarm runner at the top of the board about as often as you see a unicorn on the moon.

My experience causes me to agree with you regarding forges and two AV players, but while I only have prof.2 swarms, they are proto swarms and they can't kill or drive off an ADS alone. They may cause a pilot to leave because they fear a second AVer joining me but I can't recall ever soloing a DS with swarms.

Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill.
Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful.

We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship.

Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in.

Minmando proto swarmer, L5 prof.:

First, I do believe Dropships should have an escape route via line of sight or altitude.

However, swarms now do not do enough damage for 1 kind of dropship in particular - one of the assault kinds can just absorb swarm after swarm and not flinch. With that particular variant, it's swarm 1, 2, 3, reload, 4,5,6, reload, 7 8 9, dead by dropship fire (or infantry). Dropship pilot laughing all the while as in "why do they even bother?"

The first swarm acts as flares that tell everyone where the swarmer is, so the rendering point doesn't seem compelling to me.

The "transport" type dropship seems vulnerable to the right degree. I'm able to take those down if they don't take evasive maneuvers.

Also, any kind of dropship can flay away an infinite number of times, whereas a swarmer will run out of ammo eventually. This is a huge advantage to dropships (especially those that can absorb so many swarms).

I'd like to see a change to the "invulnerable" assault dropship - that has to go for balance. Everything else could remain as-is, as far as I'm concerned.

Whatever you do, please do NOT split swarms into different types. I've sunk so much SP into a relatively ineffective weapon that, if you split it and therefore made it less effective against certain vehicles (even if it was more effective on others), I would quit running it and probably quit the game for being just completely hopeless against vehicles.

When you talk about ADS, you forgot that a python has to run after two volleys of militia swarms because they bring down

shields to almost 30%

Pythons are fine vs av. I have a pro fit, and 1 good swarmer can chase me off with a 1 round hitting me, and running from the other 1-2 rnds he got off, even if they only chase me off for a limited amount of time. They are where they need to be.

Forges, already 2 hit-3 hit my python. And if there is 1 good forger, I can kiss bombing runs good bye.

I also have a prof 5 swarm launcher, and after 1 rnd hits them, they high-tail it out of there, (of course i have 2 other rounds immediately fired as well, and, if all 3 do hit, they die, unless they have a shield booster they hit at just the right moment.. But bottom line is, they are counter-able, 1 person can chase them off easily, Even if it's only for a limited amount of time. You just need to invest the sp, and stop crying about it.

Now my incubus on the other hand, I can put 2 basic heavy reps on that sucker, and tank 1 normal swarm guy all day long. Forges, if they're more than 1 of them, or a swarm launcher with a fg helping, can turn me away quickly.

And while using my swarm launcher, i can launch a volley of 3 shots, and by the time i've reloaded, generally they're back to full health, glaring at me, I can almost hear them asking, why for you shoot me? (same with the repper maddies) I normally die after my first volley . :)


Maybe this leads back to the stacked armor repairs being op by being able to tank av, or people not willing to spec fully into an av weapon, and use teamwork to counter something.
I go for the latter.

When there is a match with good av guys on the field, who know what they're doing, my dropships/tanks get downed pretty instantly.

One major thing I've noticed is the lock range being a problem, not just that it's short, but it's said to be 200m, I've had dropships and tanks at 165m and still unable to lock them. Many times this is when I am high up and the target closer to the ground.

You should be saying, "that incubus just out tanks my av dps, why bother with it when i can 3 hit that python"

This would not work. 300m is half the map. More on most. That is the return of redline swarms. It was a disaster before, and would be again. Remember swarms track. No player should have a weapon that tracks its target and can fire that weapon at the objectives from the redline.

what???!!?!

@ Sir Dukey
Fascinating perspectives. Would you mind detailing for us (1) how you fit your Python and (2) which pertinent skills you've invested in?

Why do you suspect your observations differ so starkly with those of every AVer in this thread?

Thank you.

"Python needs buff toward resistance toward AV."
"Swarms are too effective toward a python."
"The python has to run away with max two swarms."

@ Sir Dukey
Fascinating perspectives. Would you mind detailing for us (1) how you fit your Python and (2) which pertinent skills you've invested in?

Why do you suspect your observations differ so starkly with those of every AVer in this thread?

Thank you.

This is my proto-swarm AV fitting. I have 618 eHP and only an SMG to defend myself with. I have to run a cardiac regulator in order to ensure I have the stamina to keep running away from infantry/towards fleeing vehicles and I have to run a reactive plate because every eHP counts in this fit but I still need reps. I run a compact hive because this fitting really doesn't survive long enough to use up anything better in most situations, even if I could fit it. I can only run a single damage module because I need to use every high slot possible to keep me alive. And I run a proto assault SMG on my sidearm because it's the only thing that gives me a chance of taking someone out at a distance before they can run up and shotty/HMG me into oblivion.

This fitting runs168,720isk and I typically loose at least one suit while trying to AV any given ADS/tank to either infantry or the vehicle itself. More often than not, to the infantry or a second vehicle that backs up the first vehicle though. Let's say I only loose 1 AV suit for every vehicle I fight on a map and the enemy runs 5 tanks or ADS's. That means in AV fittings alone that match, I lost 843,600isk.

More often than not I die on my way back to the supply depot after killing off any vehicle (this is AFTER loosing one initial suit to infantry while AVing), which means that per vehicle I typically loose a total of 337,440isk.

THIS is why you rarely see me or another swarmer out there trying anymore, because it's not just the DIFFICULTY of the task at hand, it's almost just as expensive for me to kill an ADS pilot as it is for the ADS pilot to loose his ship. And that's IF I can manage to kill it. If I can't, I spend the entire match loosing AV fit after AV fit trying to dodge infantry in order to get an occasional shot off at it to keep it off my teammates.

Swarm Launchers
1) Buff lock range to 200m
2) Make lock-speed range dependent - closer is faster, farther takes longer (balances #1)
3) Make missiles 10% faster
4) Makes missiles 10% smarter (less molehill and building impacts)
*NO change to missile travel range
*NO change to missile damage

ADSs (& HAVs)
a) Nerf vehicle resistance, reppers & hardeners
b) Reduce cost of top level vehicles 10%
c) Increase price of military level vehicles 20%

Swarm Launchers
1) Buff lock range to 200m
2) Make lock-speed range dependent - closer is faster, farther takes longer (balances #1)
3) Make missiles 10% faster
4) Makes missiles 10% smarter (less molehill and building impacts)
*NO change to missile travel range
*NO change to missile damage

ADSs (& HAVs)
a) Nerf vehicle resistance, reppers & hardeners
b) Reduce cost of top level vehicles 10%
c) Increase price of military level vehicles 20%

Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill.
Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful.

We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship.

Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in.

(For the record, I only fly pythons. Don't know about incubus. As such, ADS opinion below only applies to pythons.)

You can't simply improve swarm launcher flight speed without reducing tracking ability. Swarm launchers are only deficient in their lower tier damage. They have a flight speed that can only be outrun by using after burners and a tracking ability that makes them virtually impossible to shake.

No
Just no
Those are crap fittings and the incubus needs more pg to fit a basic or adv heavy rep, complex hard and basic plate.

Either you have no idea how to hold down the L1 button and give your ship a 45 degree tilt to reach max speed, or you are lying through your teeth intentionally. I have a Python too, and with only basic modules. I can outrun swarms as long as I see them launched and there is a suitable distance between us for me to get a full tilt going for a second or two, no afterburner needed. Quit trying to exaggerate the situation. No point in even reading the rest of your post since your premise is a sham from the start. Either quit exaggerating or L2ADS, whichever suits your current situation.

Also, the whole idea of swarms is for them to be smart missiles. They would't make good smart missiles if they didn't track you at least moderately well. For a faster VARIANT of swarms with a longer range (50-75m ish), loosing a chunk off the tracking ability of the missiles would be fine. Allowing a good pilot to outmaneuver missiles would not only make the longer range more balanced, it would add flavor to AV v Vehicle play. But current swarms (with perhaps 50ish meters less range than current swarms but with more damage) need their tracking to remain in order to deal with LAV's and CQC dropships/tanks.