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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |
lithkul devant
Legions of Infinite Dominion
Zero-Day
238
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Posted - 2014.06.10 14:21:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:Alright, so I'm going to put some of my early thoughts here. None of this is final and is highly dependent on your feedback
* Reduce ADS price to 250,000 ISK
* Swarms to 150m, Assault Swarms to 200m
* Buff base dropship health a little (not ADS)
* Increase swarm reserve ammo
* Reduce physical impulse on Assault Swarms
* Slight increase to physical impulse on Swarms
* Increase Assault Swarm speed, reduce tracking and flight time. Total range will still be slightly higher. Max Rotation rate is currently 90 degrees, will try 60 first.
* Increase Standard Dropship speed (140 -> 160)
* Increase missiles to 6/7/8, reduce damage to compensate (165) to close gap between standard, advanced and prototype.
* Reduce Assault Swarm damage (looking at 10% initially)
Vehicle Armour Repairers need a big hit with a nerf bat, so I'll also look at those. However they are a much wider issue, so that might take some more time.
The resistance profiles for swarms also seem a bit strange, so I'll dig into those as well.
I saw someone mention afterburners increasing damage taken as a thought, and from what I can see that might be possible, but that's going into mad science territory at this stage and I haven't given it much thought yet.
Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target?
While I think your intentions might be good on this, I think you are doing it wrong.
1. When you reduce the damage of swarm missiles you reduce the possible chance for them to break the regen cycle. Aka shields will not even slow down and the damage you just applied will mean nothing.
2. Armor repairs do not need a huge nerf on how much they repair per tick, they need a nerf on CPU/PG so that you can not make yourself invincible to most forms of damage, such as only being able to have 2 max on or hardwire it so that you can only have 1 possible. (As you said tank to tank combat is in a good place)
3. Swarm launchers have to short of a range as is, to make it even shorter just puts them more at risk. So much so I will retire my Swarm launcher fit if the max range is 150 for the standard. Because the FG out damages it and out ranges it and even pushes the dropship more then the SL does. Not to mention the PLC might be becoming an actual AV weapon, which again will out perform the SL.
4. Exactly why are you making a weapon, that has literally one function, which is to shoot vehicles less effective then weapons that can actually do damage to infantry as well major example the forge gun? That right their is a huge nerf, due to having to rely upon others to protect them most times.
Though the other changes you are proposing would be very nice, if you need me to I can easily find plenty of videos of SL not doing enough damage to break regen cycles. A SL that provides a slowing buff would be awesome, but I bet every tanker and ADS pilot will complain that it is OP within seconds. |
lithkul devant
Legions of Infinite Dominion
Zero-Day
239
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 18:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:lithkul devant wrote:[quote=CCP Logibro]Alright, so I'm going to put some of my early thoughts here. None of this is final and is highly dependent on your feedback
While I think your intentions might be good on this, I think you are doing it wrong.
1. When you reduce the damage of swarm missiles you reduce the possible chance for them to break the regen cycle. Aka shields will not even slow down and the damage you just applied will mean nothing.
2. Armor repairs do not need a huge nerf on how much they repair per tick, they need a nerf on CPU/PG so that you can not make yourself invincible to most forms of damage, such as only being able to have 2 max on or hardwire it so that you can only have 1 possible. (As you said tank to tank combat is in a good place)
3. Swarm launchers have to short of a range as is, to make it even shorter just puts them more at risk. So much so I will retire my Swarm launcher fit if the max range is 150 for the standard. Because the FG out damages it and out ranges it and even pushes the dropship more then the SL does. Not to mention the PLC might be becoming an actual AV weapon, which again will out perform the SL.
4. Exactly why are you making a weapon, that has literally one function, which is to shoot vehicles less effective then weapons that can actually do damage to infantry as well major example the forge gun? That right their is a huge nerf, due to having to rely upon others to protect them most times.
Though the other changes you are proposing would be very nice, if you need me to I can easily find plenty of videos of SL not doing enough damage to break regen cycles. A SL that provides a slowing buff would be awesome, but I bet every tanker and ADS pilot will complain that it is OP within seconds. I'm pretty sure that we can reduce that threshold from 102 to 80-75 or even lower safely (anything that isn't an AV weapon already has a really low multiplier so shouldn't interfere still). There's also a strange thing I've found with the resistances for dropships against swarms (the 55% efficiency people have mentioned), so fixing that might solve a lot of problems. PG/CPU modifications are something we've considered, but that's a little beyond the scope of Bravo. Chances are we won't touch them this time around and leave them for another hotfix. Swarm Range is the biggest thing I'll need feedback for, as it's hard to duplicate actual battlefield conditions with less people. There is no damage nerf, prototype damage is the same and standard and advanced are higher. Swarms have the advantage in that they can lockon to their targets, which gives a much higher amount of accuracy.
Let me retort to you then, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxwLQAFLbJM in this video it talks about the ADS and how SL work, that the operating level of a ADS is roughly 50-100m, meaning that the SL has only roughly 100 meters in your current system to play with. This provides for an opportunity to strike, but as also shown in the video ADS pilots have ways of nearly completly negating the SL entirely with such a move that Judge pulls off in the video. We also have where ADS pilots can afterburn out of a hostile zone in less then 3 seconds, meaning they fear Forge guns far more then SL.
For those people saying a SL does not take skill, they are out of their minds. It takes skill to effectively harrass an ADS or a Tank without them prioritizing to kill you. So yes it does take quite a bit of skill to know when to shoot the missiles cause the trails will lead them right back to you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls7hOEdNgXE In this video we see the ADS armor and shields have the same resistance values, which have yet not been changed at all. We also see that SL's do not cross the damage threshold to stop regen of shields or armor, some of this has been fixed but not all. So in conclusion we have a few things to talk about.
1. Do SL in your proposed measure stop the regen of shields and do they do the appropiate damage for what they are.
2. Is 150m enough of a targeting range to be able to effectively combat ADS and tanks (I do not think so, because blaster tanks can kill from 100m still along with Rail tanks able to kill at a huge distance as well, including the fact that ADS use missiles which typically 1-2 hit kill an infantry that is trying to AV, to do significant damage to an ADS to even chase it off, it takes 3-5 volleys even when the ADS is not protecting itself with hardeners.)
3. Tanks and ADS are very quick moving vehicles currently with high rates of acceleration. Tanks need reduced acceleration, but can keep max speed. (Tankers use terrain even just small minute bumps to block swarms, ADS afterburners)
4. If you lower the damage per missile, then you add more missiles which you are proposing, when each missile hits against an ADS as shown in the video you are in fact nerfing the damage of the SL due to regen. Let me give an example If you have 4 missiles then do 220 damage per missile that's 880, if you have 8 missiles that do 110, you have again 880, then you factor in the resistance against each missile so for the first example 220*.55= 121 now for the other 110*.55= 60.5 now lets multiple them back into actual damage, this can make the missiles fall below the damage threshold to stop the regen which is the major issue as shown in the second video (If my math is wrong I appologize in advance compared to how well Judge displays it.)
I appologize for having to cut off your original post Logibro, I needed to do so for space to retort to you properly. |
lithkul devant
Legions of Infinite Dominion
Zero-Day
242
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 19:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:Alright, so here's the plan. First things first: We're going ahead with the missile number change for the swarm launcher. You can see them at the bottom of this sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dRIiqkQK4S1_NmisVxjvaBgrEtMcX-D8qz0cR4d_fV4/edit#gid=1310924977Second: We're reducing the cost of ADS to 250,000ISK Third: We're changing the efficiency of swarm launchers to dropships from a flat 55% on shield and armour to standard resistances (80% for shields, 120%). We're also correcting the efficiency on their thrusters (their weak point) which will now also be changed to standard (100% for shields, 150% for armour) Fourth: We're looking at lowering the minimum threshold to interrupt shield recharge from 102 to 80. Fifth: While technically not a design change, we're fixing the proficiency skill for any weapon that is armour bonused not working against vehicles. This includes both swarms and forge guns. Due to the massive change that number three is bringing, I won't want to make any further changes until I see how it evens out. If dropships start falling from the sky too quickly, we can look at lowering swarm efficiency against dropships again. If it seems to be fine, then we can look at making some swarm variants and further tweaks to the base swarm launcher (EM Swarm Launcher bonused by Amarr Commandos anyone?)
I hate dropships as much as the guy next to me, and mind you it will be fun blowing them out of the sky, but I do hope you will be adjusting the Ehp on the ADS with the other dropships so that they are not complete paper tigers. Yes I fully agree with the adjustments in armor resistance and shield resistance and the change to the damage threshold. I however, will suggest that Ehp on dropships will need to be modified in order to well survive since Dropships and ADS are known for having low armor and shield, what kept them alive so well (OP as they were) was all the things that were botched when dealing with them. I hope you change the numbers of Ehp on them first before deciding to mess to much with the resistances or bonuses against dropships.
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lithkul devant
Legions of Infinite Dominion
Zero-Day
242
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Posted - 2014.06.11 20:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:Atiim wrote:lithkul devant wrote:
I hate dropships as much as the guy next to me, and mind you it will be fun blowing them out of the sky, but I do hope you will be adjusting the Ehp on the ADS with the other dropships so that they are not complete paper tigers. Yes I fully agree with the adjustments in armor resistance and shield resistance and the change to the damage threshold. I however, will suggest that Ehp on dropships will need to be modified in order to well survive since Dropships and ADS are known for having low armor and shield, what kept them alive so well (OP as they were) was all the things that were botched when dealing with them. I hope you change the numbers of Ehp on them first before deciding to mess to much with the resistances or bonuses against dropships.
Dropship and Assault Dropship Pilots will still have the ability to make quick work of an AVer (in a span of 2.4 seconds mind you), not to mention that they'll still have the ability to evade Swarms via cover (ie, flying behind a tower) as well as their trusty Afterburner. The Swarm Launcher adjustments won't change that. Not to mention that an increase of DS/ADS eHP would have to result in an increase in damage from other AV weapons, or you'll risk making other AV choices underpowered against them. Mind you that a good ADS costs 400k isk next patch, also mind you that you dont fking lock onto infantry with an ADS, Infantry can hide as well.
Let me repeat myself, so that no one is confused, I want to kill ADS I will go out of my way to forge gun them or shoot them with SL or forge whenever I can, I have even been known to light one up using an HMG cause it got to close and was trying to land on me. I understand that changing dropship health will unbalance them some, however, do recall that forge guns and other things will be getting a damage bonus due to bonuses working correctly and resistances working correctly. The dropships will literally feel like they have no health compared to what they did and they will die within seconds. The regen issue which many of us have hated will also be much closer to being fixed as well.
I honestly want to kill ADS have even made jokes about jumping into an ADS as a heavy that was low enough and performing a God of War scene on the dropship pilot. I do not want my most hated enemy to go away, I do not want them being to easy of a kill. I want ADS to be able to take a medium sized ass kicking before they go down, otherwise we will be back to tankbush and tankdom and tankskirm again. ADS are what keep tanks from completely dominating the battlefield, except when you have a really good AV squad, which happens....very rarely.
I feel that Logibro is doing an excellent job on this issue and is being well in tuned with what the community wants and needs. I do hope to see what Judge has to say as well towards this issue. Thank you for the new clarification by the way, but I think most of the issue now is the impulse and how much they can hit around a ADS or Dropship and the window for being effective in combat we will have to see this in action and after testing. |
lithkul devant
Legions of Infinite Dominion
Zero-Day
242
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 20:38:00 -
[5] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:Sir Dukey wrote:Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:A few things. Ill chart it up tonight. Post tomorrow when I have the numbers. But in a nutshell these changes are based of the numbers, like damage and efficiency. They do not account for how the battle actually is.
Hers iis just one example - impulse. Swarms knock us all over the place. Each missile hits 1 after the other and we cannot aim at the target. We can only shoot between volleys, and by adding more missiles we will likely have a tiny window to fight back.
No, were going to have to run after we see the first volley of militia swarms knowing the second one is already locked and loaded, also knowing that the first volley is either going to push us into a wall, the ground. The least it can do is take away 1/3 of our shields and there is no way to avoid it. Exactly. You think we we just AB away now, Soon As i see that first shot I will run. Not fight. YOu will get less battles between swarms and dropships. Swarmers may find they get less kills and more frustrating fights.
I really enjoy your videos and I do try to post up links to them when I can and when they are relevant, I just wanted to take a second out of the day to thank you for the excellent work you do and I really do hope you become part of the CPM you would be a really great person for the job as you explain things very well. |
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