DUST Search - [Feedback] Swarms and Dropships

Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:

The lock range is fine. As I showed in my links 175m is a long way away, it's a third of the map. As i showed a swarm can easily see, lock and hit me at that range while I can't tell you from a rock unless you start shooting.

Increasing the lock range will put us back at the intolerable 1.6 situation. Swarms can lock down several objectives from the redline and be so far away they can hit a dropship 6 times before they even render.

Changes need to be made. But not to lock range.

Rendering is not fixed. And requires clint changes to be fixed. Did you see these?

Comparison of what we look like to each other at 85 meters.

Example of rendering issue

In that second example you can clearly see a swarmer at 50m pop into existence and fire swarms almost as soon as he does. This means he is getting lock on before I can even see him even when I am 50m away. I can only run in these cases. I am facing the wrong way, fighting an enemy who has a massive head start on me that he gained due to unbalanced rendering. Give that guy 250m lock range and I don't have a chance.

Pilots fit ABs to run mainly because we suddenly find ourselves flying strait at a forge or swarm player like idiots because as far as we can tell its all clear.. until suddenly a fully charged breach ready to shoot pops into existance that rendering made impossible to see.

We effectively go into battle blind half the time. We run because we cannot see who is shooting us, just shots from the void.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 12 post(s)
Hobo on Fire Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 280	Posted - 2014.06.09 10:02:00 - [1] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Most dropship's ability to tank damage isn't an issue for me personally since I've had proficiency 5 swarms since Uprising 1.0, but anyone with even slightly less damage output than I do must be going crazy over it. Except for the absolute best of ADS ships, I can keep DPS up on them enough to kill them if they are around long enough. I'm actually thinking you should increase the DS's resistance to rails since rail sniping them out of the air is ridiculously easy (I've been testing out both ADS's this week). As far as swarm balance goes: Regular swarms need to have a beefier hit to them. If these are to be the CQC swarms, they need more damage and more in a clip, perhaps with a slight (SLIGHT!) lock-on and flight range drop to make room for: The assault swarms need to have slightly less damage than current swarms, but with more lock-on and flight range and a much faster missile. ~Swarmer Since Replication I'll second a lot of this. I've had swarm prof sitting at 4 for I don't know how long, and I feel like I'm a pretty decent threat to dropships who don't get out of dodge the first time they get hit. That said, Prof 4 and some complex damage mods on a proto AV weapon should be threatening. Lower tier swarm users just don't have the punch to be effective. I think the high end swarms are pretty close to where they should be, and a variant with long range/high speed but lower damage missiles would round out what veteran swarmers need to be useful... but the low end swarm launchers need a little buff. I'm thinking a reduction to the base lock on time (with balanced reduction to the operation lock-on bonus) to give entry level swarms a better DPS, while keeping wiyrkomi users where they are now.
Hobo on Fire Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 280	Posted - 2014.06.09 10:23:00 - [2] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: For those talking about lock on range increases. What is your opinion on this segment of the video - Watch from this point until 2:40. Just a 2 minute segment. As far as this Judge, I have been in favor of some sort of warning indicator for pilots for a long time. Prox mine style beeping, grenade style radial warning indicators something... Buts as vulnerable as pilots are up there, the only way for swarmers to really have a chance against an ADS is if the pilot does something he shouldn't. If you aren't next to a building for me to slam you into, or you don't try to duel me once you realize I'm after you, you'll be gone before I can fire off enough shots to give you real concern. The only way I can get you in that limited time frame is with massed AV, and that should be a serious threat to any vehicle no matter the circumstances. Long range but low damage missiles help with this; it brings the swarms back as a suppressive weapon. I might not be able to kill you, but I can shoo you away from an area and maybe bag some damage points. I don't think we need to go back to the old 400m lock on range, but 250m would provide for nice area denial coverage without blocking you from half the map; lower damage per missile (150? 180?) would mean you could also risk zipping by without too much worry of losing an 800k isk investment, as long as you don't linger. I just hope the rendering issues with the missiles themselves have actually been fixed... I recall theories that the nerf to swarm range was because of that issue specifically.
Hobo on Fire Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 281	Posted - 2014.06.09 17:35:00 - [3] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: The lock range is fine. As I showed in my links 175m is a long way away, it's a third of the map. As i showed a swarm can easily see, lock and hit me at that range while I can't tell you from a rock unless you start shooting. Increasing the lock range will put us back at the intolerable 1.6 situation. Swarms can lock down several objectives from the redline and be so far away they can hit a dropship 6 times before they even render. Changes need to be made. But not to lock range. Rendering is not fixed. And requires clint changes to be fixed. Did you see these? Comparison of what we look like to each other at 85 meters. Example of rendering issue In that second example you can clearly see a swarmer at 50m pop into existence and fire swarms almost as soon as he does. This means he is getting lock on before I can even see him even when I am 50m away. I can only run in these cases. I am facing the wrong way, fighting an enemy who has a massive head start on me that he gained due to unbalanced rendering. Give that guy 250m lock range and I don't have a chance. Pilots fit ABs to run mainly because we suddenly find ourselves flying strait at a forge or swarm player like idiots because as far as we can tell its all clear.. until suddenly a fully charged breach ready to shoot pops into existance that rendering made impossible to see. We effectively go into battle blind half the time. We run because we cannot see who is shooting us, just shots from the void. The problem I have with your argument against lock on range is something you point out yourself in that same video: Swarms can't reliably hit a dropship moving away from them if its more than 70 or 80 meters away. The swarm launcher doesn't create an impenetrable death bubble for 175m in every direction; it doesn't get truly dangerous for the pilot until he's within 100m or so, an area you don't need an AB to get out of quickly. There are a multitude of reasons dropships vs AV is poorly executed right now, and the rendering issues are at the top of the list. The ridiculous price of ADS is up there as well, as is the lack of any kind of warning indicator on vehicles. Unfortunately, the price of your ships might be the only one of those 3 we can hope to see a change to in Dust. Losing an ADS wouldn't be such a hard pill to swallow if the price was in line with HAVs (which are still IMO, too cheap, but that's not a matter for this thread) and cheaper aircraft would only encourage more players to try flying. Since CCP Rattati is reading this thread, I will suggest a possibility for an AV warning indicator that just might be simple enough to work into Dust (or at least function as a base for Legion) The current grenade indicator for infantry tracks specific types of (possibly moving) projectiles that come within a certain distance to the user, and uses a radial indicator to point that player to the direction of danger. You may be able to duplicate that functionality for vehicles, with regards to AV weapons. Swarms are the obvious first projectile; even if your vehicle isn't the one being targeted, it would be beneficial to know that missiles are in the air. It doesn't need to have any complicated "These Missiles Are Tracking You" functionality, just "Missiles Nearby." You could add forge gun and plasma cannon projectiles to the list of objects that would generate the warning indicator, giving the pilots/drivers notice of these weapons being fired in their direction... They would know they are in danger even if they aren't actively being hit.
Hobo on Fire Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 285	Posted - 2014.06.10 16:21:00 - [4] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so I'm going to put some of my early thoughts here. None of this is final and is highly dependent on your feedback * Reduce ADS price to 250,000 ISK * Swarms to 150m, Assault Swarms to 200m * Buff base dropship health a little (not ADS) * Increase swarm reserve ammo * Reduce physical impulse on Assault Swarms * Slight increase to physical impulse on Swarms * Increase Assault Swarm speed, reduce tracking and flight time. Total range will still be slightly higher. Max Rotation rate is currently 90 degrees, will try 60 first. * Increase Standard Dropship speed (140 -> 160) * Increase missiles to 6/7/8, reduce damage to compensate (165) to close gap between standard, advanced and prototype. * Reduce Assault Swarm damage (looking at 10% initially) [snip] Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target? I won't speak on dropship speed or effects of physical impulse; the pilots can debate how much they should be slapped around. I like most of the rest, but I have some suggestions. Normal swarms should keep their current range... at 175 there are still a ton of situations where HAVs can simply drive away to get out of range. As for Assault Swarms: I like the idea of making them faster but slower turning. I would put the assault swarms at 225m or 250m, but perhaps with stronger reduction to damage (20% or 25%) As others have said, the 6/7/8 missile idea is great for flattening the progression, as long as the shield regen issues are addressed. As much as I like the idea of a weapon to slow targets, I'm unsure how much use it would get attached to a "primary" AV weapon. The only way for it to be effective would be in concert with other AV weapons, which requires a commando with a second AV weapon (so almost zero anti infantry defense) or trying to herd blue dots; not as simple a task as many vehicle users would like to believe. The effect would be great on a variant to proximity mines though, or perhaps on an AV grenade or even a specialized flaylock.