This is my proto-swarm AV fitting. I have 618 eHP and only an SMG to defend myself with. I have to run a cardiac regulator in order to ensure I have the stamina to keep running away from infantry/towards fleeing vehicles and I have to run a reactive plate because every eHP counts in this fit but I still need reps. I run a compact hive because this fitting really doesn't survive long enough to use up anything better in most situations, even if I could fit it. I can only run a single damage module because I need to use every high slot possible to keep me alive. And I run a proto assault SMG on my sidearm because it's the only thing that gives me a chance of taking someone out at a distance before they can run up and shotty/HMG me into oblivion.

This fitting runs168,720isk and I typically loose at least one suit while trying to AV any given ADS/tank to either infantry or the vehicle itself. More often than not, to the infantry or a second vehicle that backs up the first vehicle though. Let's say I only loose 1 AV suit for every vehicle I fight on a map and the enemy runs 5 tanks or ADS's. That means in AV fittings alone that match, I lost 843,600isk.

More often than not I die on my way back to the supply depot after killing off any vehicle (this is AFTER loosing one initial suit to infantry while AVing), which means that per vehicle I typically loose a total of 337,440isk.

THIS is why you rarely see me or another swarmer out there trying anymore, because it's not just the DIFFICULTY of the task at hand, it's almost just as expensive for me to kill an ADS pilot as it is for the ADS pilot to loose his ship. And that's IF I can manage to kill it. If I can't, I spend the entire match loosing AV fit after AV fit trying to dodge infantry in order to get an occasional shot off at it to keep it off my teammates.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to be an ADS pilot?

Alright, so I'm going to put some of my early thoughts here. None of this is final and is highly dependent on your feedback

* Reduce ADS price to 250,000 ISK
* Swarms to 150m, Assault Swarms to 200m
* Buff base dropship health a little (not ADS)
* Increase swarm reserve ammo
* Reduce physical impulse on Assault Swarms
* Slight increase to physical impulse on Swarms
* Increase Assault Swarm speed, reduce tracking and flight time. Total range will still be slightly higher. Max Rotation rate is currently 90 degrees, will try 60 first.
* Increase Standard Dropship speed (140 -> 160)
* Increase missiles to 6/7/8, reduce damage to compensate (165) to close gap between standard, advanced and prototype.
* Reduce Assault Swarm damage (looking at 10% initially)

Vehicle Armour Repairers need a big hit with a nerf bat, so I'll also look at those. However they are a much wider issue, so that might take some more time.

The resistance profiles for swarms also seem a bit strange, so I'll dig into those as well.

I saw someone mention afterburners increasing damage taken as a thought, and from what I can see that might be possible, but that's going into mad science territory at this stage and I haven't given it much thought yet.

Lastly to fully cross into mad science territory, what would you think of a swarm variant that does half the damage but applies a very strong slowing effect to it's target?

Most definitely, although I have not been using Swarms very much since the week of testing I did after 1.7.

I used to enjoy dueling with LAVs in an open field back in the Murder Taxi days.

I'll only comment on the points that I have issues with - everything else seems reasonable...

Please do NOT nerf standard swarm range - I think it should be buffed to 200m. It still takes close to a second and a half to target-lock and those vehicles are moving. Good luck getting close enough on foot in Commando suit. I still don't understand why it takes the same lock-time for a 50m target as it does for a 150m target. Longer lock times for farther targets solves this issue without nerfing range. A distant moving/flying target has a greater chance of escape; a closer stationary target, less so.

Adding a weaker, 225m-250m Assault variant makes sense as does a stronger, 150m-175m Breach variant (for HAVs?). Not sure about the value of the Specialist model.

I think swarm missiles should be faster than all vehicles without burners, but probably slower than those with. So make whatever corrections needed there.

Increasing missile count while reducing damage per missile seems a reasonable way to flatten the damage curve from std to proto, but the bug that allows ADSs to shield regenerate throughout a missile volley impact because individual missile damage is to low needs to be corrected.

Standard swarm missile smarts need to be improved some to reduce the odds of hitting inanimate things like molehills and building cross-beams - especially if the number of missiles are to be increased. HOWEVER, adding a chance variable that causes random missiles to miss their target a (very) small percentage of the time even if they run into nothing else on route seems fair and would reward pilot skill.

Alright, after having dug a little further I'm likely going to start from scratch with most changes after I figure out what's going on with the resistances to swarms on the ADS.

The Assault name on the Swarms is flexible. Main point is we're taking away the current assault swarms and replacing them with something else (Tactical I'm partial to, Breach I would prefer to leave for a single shot version).

Idea with the new swarms is to make them faster, but also less agile so that a dropship pilot that's on the ball can better manouvre to avoid them. The standard swarms will be shorter range but higher damage, more suited for taking out ground targets. I forgot to mention I'm also looking at lowering the lock on times

There's a few numbers I can play with as far as speed goes such as acceleration (linear only), initial speed and max speed. I'll be doing some testing later this week to get a feel for different variations, but feel free to make suggestions. Other things like making them shoot in a straight line for a longer period of time so you have to actually shoot them where you think the dropship is going is another thought I've had.

Damage for the most part I'll stay away from increasing at Prototype (I'm happy with the numbers from standard and advanced with more missiles) for now again due to the funky resistances. As far as making sure they still interrupt shield regen, I'll have to wait till I've sorted resistances before I tweak that but I'm looking to make sure that they can do so still with one hardener (haven't decided on two yet). I'll also double check impulse to make sure we're not massively increasing it.

AV damage resistance:

It has been stated several times in this thread that certain (Gallente) dropships experience reduced damage from Swarm Launchers. This is a problem because on the one hand the damage reduction is to great, and on the other hand because it is not applied to all dropships.

However, if the damage reduction could be adjusted it could be a useful tool in AV balance. We could balance AV against HAVGÇÖs, and then use the AV damage resistance of dropships to balance them against the AV that has been balanced against HAVGÇÖs. It would have to be applied to all dropships though.


Swarm Launchers:

- I think that Swarm Damage should be adjusted to 250 per missile.

- I think that lock time on Swarm Launchers should be applied per missile, so that Lock time increases with each additional missile, just as Damage increases as you move from Militia/Standard, to Proto. The balance of Time to Damage should be such that the increase in DPS from Militia/Standard, to Proto should be comparable to the increase in DPS of Standard Forge Guns to Proto Forge Guns.

One of the challenges of balancing the Swarm Launcher has always been that making the Proto Swarm Launcher balanced meant that the Standard Swarm Launcher became completely ineffective, and balancing the Standard Swarm Launcher made the Proto version OP. This change would salve that problem, without getting ride of the unique damage per missile setup which makes Swarm Launchers unique.

Proto Swarms would still have much higher Alpha, but the difference in DPS would not be as extreme.


Missile Speed:

Judge Rhadamanthus has explained that the first indication a Dropship pilot often has that there is a Swarm Launcher targeting them is when the first Swarm hits, and by that time there is already more swarms in the air.

It occurs to me that if Swarm Missiles moved fast enough, the first Swarm would hit while the Swarm Launcher was still trying to acquire its second lock. So faster swarms would actually give Dropship pilots more time to react. On the other hand it would be harder to get away from the Swarms once they are in the air.

So when looking at it that way, would faster missiles be better or worse? From a Dropship pilot perspective? From an AV perspective?

A swarm launcher is a light weapon and that's already enough. You can run so do so. Stop armor plate tanking like a bch... And your point is? Flaylock is pointless against infantry, FG is pretty pointless close up, Plasma Cannon is gonna get you killed cuz of reload unless you have like unheard of accuracy. Nova knives are pointless when caught at a distant of like 5+ meters.

Just because a weapon is useless against infantry doesn't mean the dropsuit is. I run exclusively with Ishukone assault SMG on many of my scouts. It's better than CR in my opinion. If you are useless with an SMG, that's your problem.

Where are you getting 2.4 seconds? What kind of situation is this? A python sneaks up behind a swarmed and shoots him?
Let's say the swarmed and the python see each other, swarmed fires and locks the dropship which has to re adjust to get a shot by which time the swarmed has fired his second shot further knocking the dropship that now has to retreat from the engagementbefore the third shot kills him. 2.4 seconds....right...

Again flying behind a tower doesn't protect you from swarms. They make crazy 90-¦ turns following the dropships exact flight path.

When a swarm initially fires it goes for a straight path, after it follows for a little bit it does follow the exact path. I had cut corners so close to buildings there should have locked the swarms but they instead followed my exact path and hit me. I have seen it countless times, do a hard bank and then spin the dropship around to see the swarms follow exactly where I went, making sharp turns to hit right where I turn my dropship.