DUST Search - [Feedback] Swarms and Dropships

bogeyman m wrote:

Pvt Numnutz wrote:

Atiim wrote:

Dropship and Assault Dropship Pilots will still have the ability to make quick work of an AVer (in a span of 2.4 seconds mind you), not to mention that they'll still have the ability to evade Swarms via cover (ie, flying behind a tower) as well as their trusty Afterburner. The Swarm Launcher adjustments won't change that.

Where are you getting 2.4 seconds? What kind of situation is this? A python sneaks up behind a swarmed and shoots him?
Let's say the swarmed and the python see each other, swarmed fires and locks the dropship which has to re adjust to get a shot by which time the swarmed has fired his second shot further knocking the dropship that now has to retreat from the engagementbefore the third shot kills him. 2.4 seconds....right...

Again flying behind a tower doesn't protect you from swarms. They make crazy 90-¦ turns following the dropships exact flight path.

Not sure what Atiim's 2.4 seconds was in reference to, but for your edification, a default swarm launcher takes 1.4 seconds to get a target lock, every time you want to fire, when a target is within range. Training proficiencies can reduce the lock time by TENTHS of seconds, so at proto level the time it takes to launch two volleys of swarms is close to 2.4 seconds.

Also, swarms might make occasional 90% turns, but they certainly do NOT follow "the dropships exact flight path". They take a more direct path to where the target is - if a target is moving and changes direction, the missiles change their line to target also. This is why we see so many missiles try to shortcut through a building when a vehicle circles the other side of said building... Or why missiles want to burrow into the ground when a vehicle travels over the crest of a hill.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 12 post(s)
Pvt Numnutz Watchdoge Explosives 1457	Posted - 2014.06.11 21:16:00 - [1] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Point: A common complaint is that Dropships boost out of trouble and are hard to kill. Counterpoint: Dropships have no other viable way of tanking damage, and are very easily killed if not incredibly careful. We can change the assault swarm launcher to have fast, long range missiles so there is a way to chase dropships away, but pilots have also told us that sometimes infantry isn't rendered properly so they don't even appear to pilots before the missiles are hitting their dropship. Please discuss, we want both sides to weigh in. The afterburner is a dropships countermeasure. Against forge guns it allows us to change direction suddenly it orbit quickly throwing off his aim a bit, not always effective depending on the skill of the forge gunner but helps none the less. Against swarms it allows us to clear the lock range and potentially out run a volly if we can get the speed up in time. Doesn't always work but does get the ship out of lock range. It is incredibly difficult to fight a forge gunner without an after burner, especially a good one. You can't maneuver fast enough to dodge his shots. With swarms you simply cannot dodge their missiles once locked, with out an afterburner you will get hit, unless you get lucky and it hits a part of a building but that's rare, especially with good swarmers. It should be a well known fact at this point that infantry don't render well for dropships, as judge has shown in his videos dropship pilots are most of the time blind to threats around them. I fly with gunners and for what ever reason infantry render much better for them, so sometimes they tell me "hey I need you to get me higher" "red to our right 3 o'clock" etc etc because I can't see the target and they know so they give me the information I need to give them an angle. Most of the times I've been killed by av was because of a milita swarm shooting at me, when I go to engage suddenly 1-2 forge guns fire from right next to the swarm and down me. No render just blue balls of death. This happens a lot with swarms too, the swarms hit from outside my fov, though I can't tell where because the hit marker tells me the opposite direction and the swarms don't render when I turn to see where they are coming from. My only option is to retreat rep my shields try and guess where they were, or I don't go back meaning the swarms have protected their area. Personally I think one proto fit swarm should be a serious threat to my proto fit dropship, if I mess up he kills me, if I am smart and retreat using my countermeasure I keep my ship and limp back to a supply depo. A proto swarm and another swarm launcher working together with communication should be able to kill me, as I am also using teamwork with a gunner to kill them. An important note for you Rattati, v/av balance is very delicate. I'm in favor of buffing swarms a little, maybe 80-100 DMG nothing too crazy because if a single swarm can shoot down a dropship then any av combination will easily down a dropship. Swarms are the easiest av, you don't have to aim as much as a forge or plc. Forge guns require skill and very good aim and battles against them are fun and challenging for both parties involved. Not saying swarms require no skill but they don't require as much as their counterparts. The scariest aspect with buffing swarms in my mind is the forge swarm combo. Skilled av teams will gave the forge engage first and fight the dropship while the swarm holds fire, an assault dropship might be able to fight a single forge gunner but not a forge with swarm support. Ads shots will be too off target to effectively fight. Instead the swarm waits till the forge has damaged the dropship significantly and fires before he retreats catching the ads pilot off guard. These new assault swarms you've suggested sound perfect for that role and I'm all for a chase missile specifically for fighting dropships. However the damage has to be less than other swarms because they are effectively fighting my only defense against their weapon. I hope you read all of this but TL:DR in case your busy. Rendering is a serious issue for pilots that can be helped by having gunners assist in threat/target identification as they have better rendering. Swarms are almost balanced but could use a little bit of a buff to their DMG to make them more of a viable threat to assault dropships. They should not be over buffed with added range or excessive DMG increase. If a single swarm can down a proto fit dropship with ease then any combination of av can easily down an assault dropship. Changing the assault swarm to be a sort of anti dropship variant is a great idea so long as they trade anti afterburner hitting ability for DMG. This encourages teamwork.
Pvt Numnutz Watchdoge Explosives 1459	Posted - 2014.06.12 00:53:00 - [2] - Quote Atiim wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: You don't need anything but a militia starter fit to kill me, just bump me in the wall like you scrubs always do. You're success is solely based on lock and shoot. No skill other than hiding in a building right after you fire. BTW- swarms chase for 400m (A-LOT) there is no way to avoid them to unless you run away and do the reversed loopty loop. Also- MCC missiles, Jilhad dropships, broken shield collision, RDV's are mechanic problems and are broken therefore they are not my fault. Anyway, no Python Pilot is stupid enough to just stand there and watch them selves burn. Pythons are Paper thin and any good pilot ditches right when they see the swarm. The Problem is with Incubus being able to take a million volleys. Perhaps your the scrub for allowing yourself to be bumped into the wall? Also, no. Success with the Swarm Launcher requires proper situational awareness, timing, coordination, and positioning, as well as resource management. If you lack any of these things, you will get the crap beaten out of you by any -competent- vehicle pilot. MCC Missiles are avoidable by being careful of how high/low your flying, Jihad Dropships are usually MLT/STD, making them easy to avoid, and the RDV mechanic is irrelevant to the discussion. As for Swarms chasing you to 400m, have you ever thought about taking cover behind a building? Swarm Launcher's aren't 'smart', and a nearby building can easily cause them to crash. Swarm launchers do take some skill to use as you say atiim. Though it does take less than forge and PLC users because they also have to aim. I'm beginning to question if you actually have flown an ads much at all. Dropships cant see 360 degrees even with gunners. You and I both know that swarms rarely hit buildings, if they do the swarm launcher is a scrub. Dropships also like to keep a healthy distance from buildings as a slight tap can cripple your ship. With the way swarms knock dropships (logibro what's your oreffered term for this?) Being near a building could mean death and if a swarmer gets into a position to knock you into a building (probably out of your FOV) even a milita swarm can down a proto dropship. Any pilot who has flown in combat situations knows this so.....do you really fly bro?
Pvt Numnutz Watchdoge Explosives 1459	Posted - 2014.06.12 01:08:00 - [3] - Quote Atiim wrote: Dropship and Assault Dropship Pilots will still have the ability to make quick work of an AVer (in a span of 2.4 seconds mind you), not to mention that they'll still have the ability to evade Swarms via cover (ie, flying behind a tower) as well as their trusty Afterburner. The Swarm Launcher adjustments won't change that. Where are you getting 2.4 seconds? What kind of situation is this? A python sneaks up behind a swarmed and shoots him? Let's say the swarmed and the python see each other, swarmed fires and locks the dropship which has to re adjust to get a shot by which time the swarmed has fired his second shot further knocking the dropship that now has to retreat from the engagementbefore the third shot kills him. 2.4 seconds....right... Again flying behind a tower doesn't protect you from swarms. They make crazy 90-¦ turns following the dropships exact flight path.
Pvt Numnutz Watchdoge Explosives 1459	Posted - 2014.06.12 01:39:00 - [4] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Anyways, back to OP, dropships having innate resists means: instead of requiring 80 dmg, even a 25% resist to swarms means the ADS now requires 100 damage to drop(which is a considerable increase to Blaster falloff) shield regen, along with automatic 25% automatic faster armor repairs(imagine the 519 Reps Madrugar having AN ADDITIONAL 25% to top it) meaning Incubuses now rep at close to 200/230(compared to typical 145 or 160) and also take 25% reduced damage, so it's still unfair to any infantry AVer. Only applies to damage from swarms. All other damage sources apply damage at normal efficiency. Forge Guns (and swarms) will actually do more armour damage after the patch when we fix their prof skill bug. I'll be watching it closely, and if does seem too low, then I'll increase the effectiveness. A 65% increase in damage is a lot for one patch. Does this mean swarms have been doing max damage to shield ships? Meaning prof skill was still giving the swarms full damage against shields and armor? If so then with the resist changes will swarms be doing more damage to shields? Or the same?
Pvt Numnutz Watchdoge Explosives 1459	Posted - 2014.06.12 02:49:00 - [5] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: Atiim wrote: Dropship and Assault Dropship Pilots will still have the ability to make quick work of an AVer (in a span of 2.4 seconds mind you), not to mention that they'll still have the ability to evade Swarms via cover (ie, flying behind a tower) as well as their trusty Afterburner. The Swarm Launcher adjustments won't change that. Where are you getting 2.4 seconds? What kind of situation is this? A python sneaks up behind a swarmed and shoots him? Let's say the swarmed and the python see each other, swarmed fires and locks the dropship which has to re adjust to get a shot by which time the swarmed has fired his second shot further knocking the dropship that now has to retreat from the engagementbefore the third shot kills him. 2.4 seconds....right... Again flying behind a tower doesn't protect you from swarms. They make crazy 90-¦ turns following the dropships exact flight path. Not sure what Atiim's 2.4 seconds was in reference to, but for your edification, a default swarm launcher takes 1.4 seconds to get a target lock, every time you want to fire, when a target is within range. Training proficiencies can reduce the lock time by TENTHS of seconds, so at proto level the time it takes to launch two volleys of swarms is close to 2.4 seconds. Also, swarms might make occasional 90% turns, but they certainly do NOT follow "the dropships exact flight path". They take a more direct path to where the target is - if a target is moving and changes direction, the missiles change their line to target also. This is why we see so many missiles try to shortcut through a building when a vehicle circles the other side of said building... Or why missiles want to burrow into the ground when a vehicle travels over the crest of a hill. When a swarm initially fires it goes for a straight path, after it follows for a little bit it does follow the exact path. I had cut corners so close to buildings there should have locked the swarms but they instead followed my exact path and hit me. I have seen it countless times, do a hard bank and then spin the dropship around to see the swarms follow exactly where I went, making sharp turns to hit right where I turn my dropship.