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New JudgeRhadamanthus Video - Redline Rails

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)
Foundation Seldon Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 419	Posted - 2014.02.06 20:24:00 - [1] - Quote All credits to JudgeRhadamanthus for the video. Send any likes over to him at : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1806881#post1806881 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHy6CXWk3K4 A FANTASTIC look at the problem with Redline Rails in their current state of the game. Check it out. Saga v. Methana Balance
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 6703	Posted - 2014.02.06 20:25:00 - [2] - Quote About bloody time....players have been telling CCP for months red line rail turrets are ridiculous....I hope CCP finally takes note. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 9043	Posted - 2014.02.06 20:29:00 - [3] - Quote Redline faggotry ftw I expect this to be fixed SoonTM. ZATARA CARRIES US ALL Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution MAG Raven
Foundation Seldon Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 419	Posted - 2014.02.06 20:34:00 - [4] - Quote True Adamance wrote: About bloody time....players have been telling CCP for months red line rail turrets are ridiculous....I hope CCP finally takes note. Made even more ridiculous thanks to stacking 30% damage mods and a buff to their base damage amounts. Various comments from CCP members make it sound like they've payed attention to Judge's videos and discuss them among the dev team, hopefully they're listening now. Saga v. Methana Balance
Charlotte O'Dell Fatal Absolution Public Disorder. 1873	Posted - 2014.02.07 04:20:00 - [5] - Quote pretty spot on. map design sucks. the redlines are always elevated over the battlefield. it needs to be the other way around. Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
Dauth Jenkins Ultramarine Corp 13	Posted - 2014.02.07 05:00:00 - [6] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell wrote: pretty spot on. map design sucks. the redlines are always elevated over the battlefield. it needs to be the other way around. That may not work.... having the battlefield higher than the red line would make dropping in dropships after the start of the match more dangerous... and on that note, why do FLYING units get dropped of by flying units...why can't they launch from the MCC.. Also why do they have to reload at the ground, and not at the MCC? Maybe it's just me wanting the MCC to do more than just float there and take damage. Sees prototompers... Sees blueberries start to snipe... Pulls out commando suit with laser rifle and swarm launcher...
Maken Tosch Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6740	Posted - 2014.02.07 06:04:00 - [7] - Quote Damn! Now that's what I call a solid review of the issue backed by supporting evidence followed by reasonable recommendations on remedying the situation. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer *CLOSED BETA VETERAN SINCE REPLICATION BUILD*
Ankbar Latrommi S.e.V.e.N. General Tso's Alliance 71	Posted - 2014.02.07 06:14:00 - [8] - Quote CCP could do a lot worse things than pursuing Pyrex to hire him as a designer. Reiner Knizia-"When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." Eve> FPS

CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 1336	Posted - 2014.02.07 06:23:00 - [9] - Quote Hey guys We've had a discussion with the CPM before and are aware of issues around Red Line Railguns - honestly we're not happy with them and it's something we want to address. I personally spoke with Judge last night about this and we threw around some suggestions. As far as I'm aware, it's unfortunately not a simple fix because of the way that the projectiles are handled (and they're not a server-side change). I'll be forwarding this video on to Wolfman/Remnant though and seeing what we can do. :) Thanks for pulling it together - this sort of feedback is great. CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian

Maken Tosch Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6740	Posted - 2014.02.07 06:29:00 - [10] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Hey guys We've had a discussion with the CPM before and are aware of issues around Red Line Railguns - honestly we're not happy with them and it's something we want to address. I personally spoke with Judge last night about this and we threw around some suggestions. As far as I'm aware, it's unfortunately not a simple fix because of the way that the projectiles are handled (and they're not a server-side change). I'll be forwarding this video on to Wolfman/Remnant though and seeing what we can do. :) Thanks for pulling it together - this sort of feedback is great. +1 for bluetagging this thread and for letting us know that fixing this is not as simple as changing stats on a server. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer *CLOSED BETA VETERAN SINCE REPLICATION BUILD*

Sigberct Amni Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 372	Posted - 2014.02.07 06:42:00 - [11] - Quote Judge's solutions never cease to be spot on. Until red line rails are neutered, i continue to abuse them and let my python rust away.
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 82	Posted - 2014.02.07 06:54:00 - [12] - Quote I have been waiting for this video from Judge, and it was worth the wait. Spot on (as always) Judge! :-) You get a like from me (wish I could give more) PS: Hey CCP Saberwing, nice to have you back! Heard you had a nice time in Korea :-)

CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 1343	Posted - 2014.02.07 07:01:00 - [13] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: I have been waiting for this video from Judge, and it was worth the wait. Spot on (as always) Judge! :-) You get a like from me (wish I could give more) PS: Hey CCP Saberwing, nice to have you back! Heard you had a nice time in Korea :-) Thanks! Nice to be back. Korea was awesome, thanks. :) I had a blast and love it there! I'm hoping to go back for a long weekend some point soon. CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian

COVERT SUBTERFUGE PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 144	Posted - 2014.02.07 07:14:00 - [14] - Quote Great video...and bloody hell that resuply at 7 mins was a joy to watch lol. Legend! Subterfuge and terrorist GOD in the making Proud Minmatar - Alt of THE GREY CARDINAL Love the Art of War
WUT ANG D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 86	Posted - 2014.02.07 07:18:00 - [15] - Quote Fix = remove red zone place 100% neutral border around playable area. Increase Home spawn locations too maybe five locations instead of two, to prevent spawn killing. Swarm SP Refund Please!!!!!!! "LONG LIVE DARK LEGION"
Fiddlestaxp TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 393	Posted - 2014.02.07 07:50:00 - [16] - Quote Make railguns behave like the mass driver(of old?). Have the projectile disappear after a certain duration. Make this distance ONLY so short as to make the railguns all but useless on anything but their home point from the red line. Nothing should have near infinite range Buff infantry AV a tiny bit while you are at it. Swarms were too strong against dropships, but a necessary component of countering #tankspam. Tanks are mostly countered by tanks right now... This is boring and unimaginative. Symmetry is poor game design(Except for maps. Im still pissed that Tabletop was in the tourney rotation... AND that you didn't swap sides. You don't think the side that has the covered letter (C/D) has an advantage over the side with open letters (A/B)?) EDIT: Removing the redline is not an option at this point. You WOULD get spawn camped. I don't care how many spawn points there are.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 460	Posted - 2014.02.07 08:28:00 - [17] - Quote I don't think changing the firing angle for tanks is a good idea. Being unable to hit something because it is close and high like a Forge Gunner on a roof or a Tank on a ridge sucks. Good Assault Dropships pilots are already a decent enough hazard for tanks if they can get in out dead zones so I am unsure that increasing those is a great idea (and a shout out to all the DS pilots that have run me out of a location; damn fine job). Saying that tanker could easily see the dropship coming before it gets in the tank's deadzone is a little hazy as the dropship can maneuver into position fairly easily without being spotted, providing the tank isn't being a giant redline sissy. The problem is the fact that the only way to beat a redline tank is to be in the redline. Pause the video at about 2 minutes. The enemy tank in the redline probably was in the redline because Judge's team had a sniper tank (left side of the map). I am an avid tanker, I have been since about 2 months of playing the game so maybe early March 2013, but the redline railgun thing sucks. Not being able to field a tank without getting pelted by some giant sissy deep in the enemy redline is really lame. I don't know what the fix is but I eagerly await it.
Ghural The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 173	Posted - 2014.02.07 08:34:00 - [18] - Quote My suggestion to help improve the situation is to allow airships to enter the redzone. Ther're not so overpowered to be able to decimate everything. But that can harass tanks. I'm able to take out tanks in my dropship. The only thing that saves them is the ability to go deep into their redzone. It's stupid and unfair
Nguruthos IX Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 2452	Posted - 2014.02.07 08:43:00 - [19] - Quote Good video judge. However, I would have preferred just a montage of 100% - 0% dropship HP in under a second. Plus some footage of the futility of attempting to oust a red-line rail tanker from their sniping. Being invincible is bad. Having that DPS is bad. Having both is insane.
Rogue Saint Science For Death 764	Posted - 2014.02.07 09:01:00 - [20] - Quote So what is the counter for derpships? Swarms are pointless, forges are an option but you can't be sure you have a decent forge gunner in the team so whats left? Rail Gun tank! Sure, I'm not a DS pilot, so my comments are invalid, but until there is more sensible counter to DS I'm all for redline rails. GôêGÆ+GÆ+GÆ¦ - Causes headaches, it's official +1 for Infantry Skills Refund in 1.8 or I win DUST514

Nguruthos IX Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 2452	Posted - 2014.02.07 09:02:00 - [21] - Quote Rogue Saint wrote: So what is the counter for derpships? Swarms are pointless, forges are an option but you can't be sure you have a decent forge gunner in the team so whats left? Rail Gun tank! Sure, I'm not a DS pilot, so my comments are invalid, but until there is more sensible counter to DS I'm all for redline rails. two wrongs, something something
rpastry Carbon 7 CRONOS. 117	Posted - 2014.02.07 09:23:00 - [22] - Quote BUFF SWARM RANGE [Removed ASCII Art - CCP Logibro]
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 564	Posted - 2014.02.07 09:51:00 - [23] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: The redline is a real problem. Rail tanks in them are a plague on the game. Have a look and see exactly how bad it is and what can be done in my latest video. Where did that 400 extra damage from the basic railgun suddenly come from? You can't claim "base" stats if you're not using "base" stats..... :/ Frankly I do drive tanks, and I think that as it is now.. ADV and PRO rails have no real place on the field, because they allow one to effectively place the equivalent of an extra damage amp onto the railgun without consuming a module slot. Tanks should have to choose between high defense or high offense, but with a PRO rail, they can get the high defense and this substitute damage amp at the same time. On tank vs tank the basic rail seems to be just fine, but yes, the dropships do seem to need more Health in order to survive. But if not more health then a natural Resistance to the damage type used by the railgun... which would permit a scaling of dropships vs tank without having to mess around with infantry attack values, separation of tank railgun type damage from forge gun type damage would also be needed. Also, making the redline immune to any fire penetrating it enforces the idea of redline camping. The enemy cannot shoot out of their base, so you can take your time to stand in the open and track them as they approach the barrier. Effectively meaning that the first squad to reach the enemy base and camp the barrier would be the winners of the match... If you can read this, it means you are reading. Unless you are skimming
Prius Vecht Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 253	Posted - 2014.02.07 10:28:00 - [24] - Quote Mortars and Bombers would both do a great job of making it a bad idea to sit in a static position for an extended period. Hopefully both will be here at some point. In the meantime lowering the angle of fire is a good idea.
tween tween UrAnus Air Service 0	Posted - 2014.02.07 11:07:00 - [25] - Quote I'm a tanker myself and Yes can problems might exist, but look it from the tanks point of view or in this case, mine. I pull out a rail gun to take out turrets or enemy tanks. One of few times I sit at the redline with a rail, is when my team gets redlined completely. Even then, I have a hard time taking out dropship piloted by Ars Kayc, Foxhound Elite and Evolution-7, just to name a few. Another reason FOR me going on the redline with a rail gun is that it is impossible for me to fight enemy tanks as they get cover by one drop ship, which makes it impossible, at least for me to fight head on with blaster vs blaster tank. Here the creator of this video could be a good example, as I when encountering him, never seen him play alone, but always with a squad. Nothing wrong with that, don't get me wrong, but when they steamroll my blueberry team with infantry, tanks and him in a dropship, it makes it impossible to go as infantry or tank. Of my encounters in matches like This, I've only shot Judge down two or three times. Judge is a good dropship pilot, but he rarely plays alone, as it seems like he does in these videos. Last remark, good blaster tanks get good scores like good dropship pilot gets good scores, but put a good blaster tanker out on the battlefield against a good DS pilot and you'd prolly see the tanker get destroyed, if he fails to find reasonable cover
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 647	Posted - 2014.02.07 11:54:00 - [26] - Quote fyi, for reference, here's the elevation stats for an M1A1 tank: Main gun: - 9 to + 20 degrees Commander's LMG: -10 to +65 degrees (ps MAV please) Selling dust codes!
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 185	Posted - 2014.02.07 12:21:00 - [27] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: fyi, for reference, here's the elevation stats for an M1A1 tank: Main gun: - 9 to + 20 degrees Commander's LMG: -10 to +65 degrees And what are the engagement ranges? I'm pretty sure that real combat takes places over distances longer than 500m. Also, if elevations are changed, I want them to be dependant on turret type. I feel like the close combat turrets should have higher elevation. Missiles should be able to shoot at 70-¦ or something. This would actually give them a niche.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2415	Posted - 2014.02.07 13:59:00 - [28] - Quote No rails = DS heaven As for railgun damage, infantry wanted turrets to have ammo so it was always going to do more damage than the handheld FG Plus railgun turrets can fire across all of the map, sometimes you think it is a tank but in fact its a guy in an installation Railguns can track but the shell has travel time and also can dip at extreme ranges, notice how judge fails to hit the DS when its moving except when it lands which doesnt matter because the guy has landed and is fine and has got to where he wanted to go, try hitting when its moving 8000dmg in a quater of a second, yea now your lying your ass off I fly DS and im fine with it, i dont even use ADS half the time so my agility is that of a rock anyways but i make up for it with defence, proper flying and you can easily survive in compounds and under 100m and know your area you can avoid smashing into buildings and GTFO out of the way Spine cresent is the only map i really ever see you mention, on that map the rail installations are my main enemy, most railtanks pilots cant hit **** when its moving but the installations have better accuracy but then again i squad with ppl who can use rails so i act as bait find the tank and while they are shooting at me my squad takes them out But spine cresent itself is okay to fly around, remove the installations and its great, sure a tank may get dropped in but it takes 3 shots to take me out and if your not moving fast after the 1 let alone 2nd your dead and hiding in the compound is fine since they tend to have high walls massive towers and break LOS to you Elevation can be tampered with, you are assuming the land the tank is on is level, yet i could go up a slight incline which helps my elevation which means i can shoot targets which are higher up because i used my terrain to my advantage, you nerf the elevation of the turret doesnt matter because they can use the terrain to shoot higher up so what then nerf the terrain? As for the redline needs to be a shield you cannot re-enter is all fine and dandy but thats a massive buff to DS and why is that? thats because the actualy flying zone is extended by a large amount so for example you could fly alot further into the back of the spawn than a tank can go before you even get a redline warning so that redline rail maybe 150m in the redline yet your DS can easily fly 300m back into the spawn before you get a redline warning Intelligence is OP
calisk galern BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder. 1788	Posted - 2014.02.07 14:01:00 - [29] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Hey guys We've had a discussion with the CPM before and are aware of issues around Red Line Railguns - honestly we're not happy with them and it's something we want to address. I personally spoke with Judge last night about this and we threw around some suggestions. As far as I'm aware, it's unfortunately not a simple fix because of the way that the projectiles are handled (and they're not a server-side change). I'll be forwarding this video on to Wolfman/Remnant though and seeing what we can do. :) Thanks for pulling it together - this sort of feedback is great. larger maps with further back redlines from the combat area. red-line sniping is far less common on large maps.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1426	Posted - 2014.02.07 14:35:00 - [30] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: No rails = DS heaven ......notice how judge fails to hit the DS when its moving except when it lands which doesn't matter because the guy has landed and is fine and has got to where he wanted to go, try hitting when its moving You keep saying no rails = DS heaven. Which I myself explicitly stated the opposite to on two distinct occasions in the video and multiple times on the forum . Could you acknowledge please in your next post, as you keep throwing this at me, that you understand that I have explicitly advocated that rails must stay. Also, as I stated already on the video comments section I had to keep the DS in my sights so the range would show for the video so I couldn't lead it. It is also why you'll see my spooling each time, so the screen is not obscured by white flashes. I could have hit it if I wanted too. I am impressed by the forum here today. Sitting through a 30 minute video shows quite a high level of commitment to the game and making it better. Bravo to those who put 30 minutes aside. We also have to acknowledge that CCP, through Sabrewing, has told us that it is something they are not happy with. It is good to see they care about this difficult issue. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight

Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2415	Posted - 2014.02.07 14:59:00 - [31] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: No rails = DS heaven ......notice how judge fails to hit the DS when its moving except when it lands which doesn't matter because the guy has landed and is fine and has got to where he wanted to go, try hitting when its moving You keep saying no rails = DS heaven. Which I myself explicitly stated the opposite to on two distinct occasions in the video and multiple times on the forum . Could you acknowledge please in your next post, as you keep throwing this at me, that you understand that I have explicitly advocated that rails must stay. Also, as I stated already on the video comments section I had to keep the DS in my sights so the range would show for the video so I couldn't lead it. It is also why you'll see my spooling each time, so the screen is not obscured by white flashes. I could have hit it if I wanted too. As for railgun damage, infantry wanted turrets to have ammo so it was always going to do more damage than the handheld FG Plus railgun turrets can fire across all of the map, sometimes you think it is a tank but in fact its a guy in an installation Railguns can track but the shell has travel time and also can dip at extreme ranges so you generally have to lead your target, this is a skill to do 8000dmg in a quater of a second, yea now your lying your ass off I fly DS and im fine with it, i dont even use ADS half the time so my agility is that of a rock anyways but i make up for it with defence, proper flying and you can easily survive in compounds and under 100m and know your area you can avoid smashing into buildings and GTFO out of the way Spine cresent is the only map i really ever see you mention, on that map the rail installations are my main enemy, most railtanks pilots cant hit **** when its moving but the installations have better accuracy but then again i squad with ppl who can use rails so i act as bait find the tank and while they are shooting at me my squad takes them out But spine cresent itself is okay to fly around, remove the installations and its great, sure a tank may get dropped in but it takes 3 shots to take me out and if your not moving fast after the 1 let alone 2nd your dead and hiding in the compound is fine since they tend to have high walls massive towers and break LOS to you Elevation can be tampered with, you are assuming the land the tank is on is level, yet i could go up a slight incline which helps my elevation which means i can shoot targets which are higher up because i used my terrain to my advantage, you nerf the elevation of the turret doesnt matter because they can use the terrain to shoot higher up so what then nerf the terrain? As for the redline needs to be a shield you cannot re-enter is all fine and dandy but thats a massive buff to DS and why is that? thats because the actualy flying zone is extended by a large amount so for example you could fly alot further into the back of the spawn than a tank can go before you even get a redline warning so that redline rail maybe 150m in the redline yet your DS can easily fly 300m back into the spawn before you get a redline warning Intelligence is OP
RemingtonBeaver Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 112	Posted - 2014.02.07 15:06:00 - [32] - Quote Great video. Go like it, sub, all that sh*t. Is there anyone who doesn't think red line rail tanks are a huge problem with the game? I'm not reading walls of text. Just need a list of names of people that are stupid. We can pickle that.
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 543	Posted - 2014.02.07 15:10:00 - [33] - Quote I think railguns need to have their Alpha damage nerfed, if they want to maintain the range. It just doesn't make sense that they have awesome damage AND range. They easily outperform the other turret variants with the advent of the ultra high resistance hardeners. The only thing that can break such high resistances, is equally high alpha damage. While it won't fix the problem with redline rails, as that IS a terrain issue(and not something easy to fix), it will help to lessen the major impact railguns now play on the field. Dropships do have extreme mobility, but that feels wasted when you are easily shot down by something you can't even affect. Less damage means more time for a DS pilot to react, whether that be flippin on hardeners, evasive maneuvers, or breaking LOS. Currently, I feel that is the biggest issue facing dropships pilots AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN. (Yes, I know redline setup is an issue, still, I easily drop dropships out of the sky, and I DON'T REDLINE SNIPE. In turn, this would have a positive effect on tanks. Railguns are currently the go to weapon for anything vehicle destruction related above all other turrets. They work incredibly well at ANY RANGE. They outperform other variants on vehicles without hardeners and with hardeners. I feel there should be a trade off somewhere to bring it more inline with the performace of the other turret types. You can't have both the highest alpha and the longest range. Well you could, if you reduced clip size, ROF, and heat cost. But that's the point, got to lose in order to gain. Nuff Said
rpastry Carbon 7 CRONOS. 123	Posted - 2014.02.07 15:13:00 - [34] - Quote rhadamanthus is all about protecting his DS and making the game easier for himself. i actually sat through the video where he wanted forge guns to glow brightly so they were visible from space (as if being a FG wasnt dangerous enough) and swarms to have a lock-on indicator. ofc now those weps are nerfed to oblivion theres another crusade to take on. so redline be abolished and railguns shouldnt be able to look up, effectively giving the DS a free fly zone either close up or far away or high up, and the railgunner a miniscule window with which to hit a DS; not only the fastest object in the game but the only one that can propel itsself in 3 dimensions simultaneously. lets not forget that to kill the fastest moving object in the game you need to use the slowest tracking weapon in the game. theres some blahblah about tactics and other tanks but this is just padding to get his real goal; NERF EVERYTHING THAT CAN KILL ME so then he can hover and pelt infantry and tanks with his missile launcher all day long. [Removed ASCII Art - CCP Logibro]
ResistanceGTA D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 210	Posted - 2014.02.07 15:16:00 - [35] - Quote Yet another great video by Judge. Rather informative and constructive on solutions that are both effective and fair (to both parties, which is rare on the internet). Honestly, hit the nail on the head. The angle of engagement is the only true issue, with a slight range nerf being welcome, but, I would take just the angle change at this rate. P.A.I.R.- Pilot Against Invisible RDVs.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 2434	Posted - 2014.02.07 15:17:00 - [36] - Quote I definitely agree with JudgeGÇÖs suggestion that Rail tanks should only have an elevation angle of 22 degrees. They would still be able to cover the sky by finding a hill or some other feature to elevate the front end of the tank, but keeping track of and finding an appropriate ground feature when needed would require some spatial awareness and preparation. That is a lot more balanced than just being able to immediately shoot at anything in the sky. Having to find something to elevate the front of the tank introduced a tactical element into the fight. As for the Red Line the problem with balancing it is remembering to consider a team that has been pushed back to the Red Line. They must be given the ability to defend themselves. My preference has always been for map design to make it so there are no ideal Sniper Nests deep in the Read Line, but some of the more recent maps have snugged the Red Line right up close to the outlying Objectives, so map design balancing is sort of out. My best proposals is to have two Red Lines. Leave the Red Line as it is, but add a second zone 40m behind the Red Line, behind which your weapons will not function. If a team is redlined they have a 40m buffer zone in which they can fight. Behind that is a safe area where they canGÇÖt shoot from, but they can call in vehicles or wait for their suits to repair. A sniper operating in the 40m buffer zone is still within range of many weapons, and may be susceptible to LAVGÇÖs and Scouts making incursions into the Red Line to take them out. A Rail Tank in the 40m buffer zone is still within range of a DropshipGÇÖs turret, and the Dropship can make quick incursions into the Red Zone to swing behind the tank. It would also bring Rail Tanks a lot closer to the Red Line and make them a more viable target for Swarms. Anyway, the Double Red line is the best solution I have come up with off the top of my head. It is not perfect, but it gets hostiles withing range of a few more counters. Fox Gaden: DUST Wall of Fame, 2014
pdiddy anfama KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 115	Posted - 2014.02.07 15:43:00 - [37] - Quote I say just get rid of rail turrets. Problem solved. CCP fix PC your core game mode Blah blah blah about locking districts as long as there is frame rate drops
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1433	Posted - 2014.02.07 17:01:00 - [38] - Quote rpastry wrote: theres some blahblah about tactics and other tanks but this is just padding to get his real goal; NERF EVERYTHING THAT CAN KILL ME so then he can hover and pelt infantry and tanks with his missile launcher all day long. You don't seem to have followed the message in the video at all. Notice other people in this thread seem to have a completely different view to you. Did you actually watch it? Also you are wrong in every way about my goals and seem to be willfully taking messages from videos that were not in them. O clearly show that tracking is not and issue, dropships speed is negligible when engaging at range and that escape is difficlt as there is no cover and the hostile air is many layers deep. Why would you make statements about game-play I just showed were not correct? You are in Bamm Havocs corp right? Talk to him. He can get you into a squad with me and we can straighten out your misconceptions. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Severance Pay Krullefor Organization Minmatar Republic 1018	Posted - 2014.02.07 17:25:00 - [39] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Hey guys We've had a discussion with the CPM before and are aware of issues around Red Line Railguns - honestly we're not happy with them and it's something we want to address. I personally spoke with Judge last night about this and we threw around some suggestions. As far as I'm aware, it's unfortunately not a simple fix because of the way that the projectiles are handled (and they're not a server-side change). I'll be forwarding this video on to Wolfman/Remnant though and seeing what we can do. :) Thanks for pulling it together - this sort of feedback is great. Sounds to me like you weren't even listening to the narrator. I appreciate your input and even more I appreciate your time to read and watch. I want to point out the focus of this video. You are talking about making weapon adjustments when what is discussed is not the issue with the weapon itself. The problem is the redline. The video proves holes in the game mechanics due to the redline i.e. "I must put my isk on the line to participate, and this guy can safely sit behind the redline with little to no risk of losing isk." There are snipers, tanks, and etc that take advantage of this. "I'm not saying nerf railtanks, but perhaps negate their ability to attack from the redline or to attack from extreme ranges." We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; For he to-day that sheds his blood with me Shall be my brother
ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 320	Posted - 2014.02.07 17:31:00 - [40] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Hey guys We've had a discussion with the CPM before and are aware of issues around Red Line Railguns - honestly we're not happy with them and it's something we want to address. I personally spoke with Judge last night about this and we threw around some suggestions. As far as I'm aware, it's unfortunately not a simple fix because of the way that the projectiles are handled (and they're not a server-side change). I'll be forwarding this video on to Wolfman/Remnant though and seeing what we can do. :) Thanks for pulling it together - this sort of feedback is great. Just a minor suggestion I have. - I played BF3 / BF4 recently and I noticed the tank shells have drop over distance. This prevents them from being TOO over powered. Now I know railgun tech would permit the projectile to fire in very straight lines very far, but for sake of game balance - could we get some drop on the railgun rounds in DUST? Is that possible? Also I would like to see changes to the way the redline is. I do know though that Assault Derpships WILL be very overpowered without the proper checks in place. However I DONT want them to be swatted out of the sky so easily. Tank round drop?

pegasis prime BIG BAD W0LVES 1553	Posted - 2014.02.07 17:33:00 - [41] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: rpastry wrote: theres some blahblah about tactics and other tanks but this is just padding to get his real goal; NERF EVERYTHING THAT CAN KILL ME so then he can hover and pelt infantry and tanks with his missile launcher all day long. You don't seem to have followed the message in the video very closely. Notice other people in this thread seem to have a completely different view to you. Did you watch it? Also you are wrong in every way about my goals and seem to be willfully taking messages from videos that were not in them. I clearly show that tracking a dropship with a turret is not and issue, dropships speed is negligible when engaging at range and that escape is difficult as there is no cover and the hostile air is many layers deep. Why would you make statements about game-play I just showed were not correct? You are in Bamm Havocs corp right? Talk to him. He can get you into a squad with me and we can straighten out your misconceptions. Judge im all for buffing drop ships or altering red line mechanics but in no way should the rail turrets be nerfed. In your vid yes you showed how easy it is for a da to ve tracked at range but if you get above a tank there is nothing they can do to defend them selves against you shor of running to whare you cant fly. I have seen ads pilots making mince meat out of other tankers and my self with the only way to bring them down effectivly is to get range on your side this means the red kine in thw smaller maps . Now in this video you argued that some of the maps are too small for rails to have the range that they do , but from my point of view as a tanker some of the smaller maps are too small for arial combat not too small for ranged ground vehicle combat. Its gone from suck .....to blow level 1 forum warrior
Serimos Haeraven The Exemplars Top Men. 654	Posted - 2014.02.07 17:48:00 - [42] - Quote Well done Judge, I was waiting eagerly for this one to come out! Tankers are being diagnosed with a new disease; Cancer of the Assault Dropship. Many of them don't survive.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1434	Posted - 2014.02.07 18:10:00 - [43] - Quote Two issues here : pegasis prime wrote: ....but if you get above a tank there is nothing they can do to defend them selves against you... That is like me saying that once a tank gets range from me there is nothing I can do to defend myself. That is the point. As i show in the video (fitting bug excluded) you can fit a top turret to take me on when above you. You have options. Your tank has range, that is its strength. I have altitude. If I can not use my strength against you what do i have left? Nothing. Plus you are faster with acceleration and base speed, and have 4 times my EHP. Exactly how many advantages do you need? pegasis prime wrote: ...but from my point of view as a tanker some of the smaller maps are too small for arial combat not too small for ranged ground vehicle combat. This is not true. Look at he elevation and all maps. Plot elevation against effective altitude. Tanks can engage any dropship on any map from outside the redline when that dropship is 100m or lower. In fact you have too much air coverage. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
pegasis prime BIG BAD W0LVES 1553	Posted - 2014.02.07 18:50:00 - [44] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Two issues here : pegasis prime wrote: ....but if you get above a tank there is nothing they can do to defend them selves against you... That is like me saying that once a tank gets range from me there is nothing I can do to defend myself. That is the point. As i show in the video (fitting bug excluded) you can fit a top turret to take me on when above you. You have options. Your tank has range, that is its strength. I have altitude. If I can not use my strength against you what do i have left? Nothing. Plus you are faster with acceleration and base speed, and have 4 times my EHP. Exactly how many advantages do you need? pegasis prime wrote: ...but from my point of view as a tanker some of the smaller maps are too small for arial combat not too small for ranged ground vehicle combat. This is not true. Look at he elevation and all maps. Plot elevation against effective altitude. Tanks can engage any dropship on any map from outside the redline when that dropship is 100m or lower. In fact you have too much air coverage. Top turrets do not get enough elavation to hit you they have a dead zone in the shape of a cone directly above the tank Yes tanks have a high hp there tanks for gandalfs sake. And yes yoi are saying that when we have range on you we have the advantage and when your close you have the advantage balance ???? On your last point there well have to dissagree. As lets say ashland with its bowl loke hills and long strait parallel roada is one of the smaller maps now do you think that mao is unsutible for ranged vehicle combat ? Or insutible for ariel combat with its towering structure right through the middle of it? I get it I really do you want ds to be viable and I as a rail ginner want them to remain viable the best sollution is to remove or reduce the redlines not nerf tanks or rail turrets maby even a ds buff. I have watched many of your vids in the oast regarding balance you do make some good points but you are too one sided and blind to any other form of play styke that isnt flying a ds. Its gone from suck .....to blow level 1 forum warrior
Big miku TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 344	Posted - 2014.02.07 18:56:00 - [45] - Quote A note. Let's say we do something about the redline, you then run into this problem. That is, Tanks that simply hang just outside of the redline and pull back into it as soon as they get attacked.
CELESTA AUNGM Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 118	Posted - 2014.02.07 18:58:00 - [46] - Quote Judge's video here, and other players threads elsewhere recently, highlight an issue I'd like to re-iterate: "Balance" is something CCP rightfully wants to acheive. I think it is acheived in EVE Online through the elaborate earning and layering of modules onto an already-costly spaceship, to create a anxiety of "RISK" that never goes away in the players' minds. To address the very real threat of RISK, players in EVE Online (yes, RE-layer their modules, but also) choose what vehicles to invest in the engagement, and knit intense team-strategy with other players as their way of minimizing the risk of loss while in that engagement. The "Waves of Opportunity" balancing idea in Dust tries to achieve "balance" by forcing any vehicle-player to WITHDRAW from play, not simply "retreat" around a building while remaining in play. CCP refers to the behavior as having to "retreat", but as Judge makes clear, Retreat and Withdraw don't mean the same thing. Every time the "waves" balancing effect forces a withdraw, it is forcing a player OUT OF THE GAME, eliminating the player from team-play and team effectiveness. (I have mentioned before how my efforts to provide support in an engagement are lost because my cooldown periods and resulting vulnerability to hostile AV remove me so long from the fight that most fights have to end without my participation). We as CONSOLE players are "agressively resourceful" in our games, so many of us soon "compensate" for the problem by abandoning team-participation altogether, and coming up with loner behavior such as redlining with our vehicles, or racetrack-driving-while-shooting-on-the-run throughout the entire match... the heck with winning null objectives anymore. It has created a "BATTLE-map" full of vehicle-operators who look for ways to shoot from "OUTSIDE the battle", "without GETTING IN the battle", "without risking their vehicles as a PART of the battle and PART of our team for any usefull length of time". "Balancing" in Dust shouldn't be attempted by constraining the modules/fittings, or forcing "retreat" cycles. It has to involve shaping the "Behavior" of the players. We're not EVE-Online, we're a genetic offshoot called Dust (and proud of it!). Judge's review touches a little on my suggestion: readjust the gameplay so that 'RISK' is the only constant thing every player is forced to address, no matter WHERE she squats on the map. Dust is about Team-interaction and about Risking your assets if you want to engage hostiles and win. Shape players' behavioral choices so that: -- if she wants to risk her for a close and lenghty engagement with her vehicle, Celesta can do so only by investing in the juicy protective accessories, and investing in tighter coordination with her teammates. -- if she wants to provide support from afar and reduce her Risk (never effectively escaping risk), the game should "counterbalance" Celesta by SUBSTANTIALLY limiting her ability to reach hostiles offensively, limiting her ability to influence the gameplay in any way except protecting her cornered friendlies in a desperate redline defense, and limiting her opportunities to collect points for herself. Don't "balance" us by sending us away from the fight every 60 seconds. We'll only respond by modfying our behavior to invent loopholes of imbalance. Balance us by making us meet the appropriate requirements for being closeup in the fight, and appropriate "nerfing" consequences for keeping a distance in the fight,... but never let us excel from OUTSIDE the fight.
Sir Snugglz Red Star. EoN. 347	Posted - 2014.02.07 18:59:00 - [47] - Quote Omg!!! It's so simple!!! Most of the maps are like valleys surrounded by mountains, but the highest points in the mountains are in redline... So, keep the redline same size but push it behind the mountains.... There are already roads in place so climbing mountains is simple or one can simply go over them. This allows tanks to still hold highest ground but risk taking damage if they fail... But more importantly, if they run to redline, they'll have a chance to get away but will not have line of sight to fight back. They will need to reposition themselves outside the redline if they are to re engage the enemy... No buffs/nerfs to anything, no changing the mechanics of redline. It's simple increasing the battlefield area a bit and pushing the redline back where the spawn is still safe but not a place for blue team to be offensive. The redline is suppose to be a very strong defensive front. The only problem is that it will take a little longer to meet the enemy but that will only happen at the beginning of the match. Luck is just one of my skills
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 4480	Posted - 2014.02.07 19:17:00 - [48] - Quote CCP also needs to stop making Valley maps. Is that all they think maps are? remember the original bowl map anybody? That's a prime example of CCP's stagnant level design.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2417	Posted - 2014.02.07 19:19:00 - [49] - Quote As for railgun damage, infantry wanted turrets to have ammo so it was always going to do more damage than the handheld FG Plus railgun turrets can fire across all of the map, sometimes you think it is a tank but in fact its a guy in an installation Railguns can track but the shell has travel time and also can dip at extreme ranges so you generally have to lead your target, this is a skill to do 8000dmg in a quater of a second, yea now your lying your ass off I fly DS and im fine with it, i dont even use ADS half the time so my agility is that of a rock anyways but i make up for it with defence, proper flying and you can easily survive in compounds and under 100m and know your area you can avoid smashing into buildings and GTFO out of the way Spine cresent is the only map i really ever see you mention, on that map the rail installations are my main enemy, most railtanks pilots cant hit **** when its moving but the installations have better accuracy but then again i squad with ppl who can use rails so i act as bait find the tank and while they are shooting at me my squad takes them out But spine cresent itself is okay to fly around, remove the installations and its great, sure a tank may get dropped in but it takes 3 shots to take me out and if your not moving fast after the 1 let alone 2nd your dead and hiding in the compound is fine since they tend to have high walls massive towers and break LOS to you Elevation can be tampered with, you are assuming the land the tank is on is level, yet i could go up a slight incline which helps my elevation which means i can shoot targets which are higher up because i used my terrain to my advantage, you nerf the elevation of the turret doesnt matter because they can use the terrain to shoot higher up so what then nerf the terrain? As for the redline needs to be a shield you cannot re-enter is all fine and dandy but thats a massive buff to DS and why is that? thats because the actualy flying zone is extended by a large amount so for example you could fly alot further into the back of the spawn than a tank can go before you even get a redline warning so that redline rail maybe 150m in the redline yet your DS can easily fly 300m back into the spawn before you get a redline warning Intelligence is OP
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1437	Posted - 2014.02.07 19:28:00 - [50] - Quote pegasis prime wrote: I have watched many of your vids in the oast regarding balance you do make some good points but you are too one sided and blind to any other form of play styke that isnt flying a ds. I think I have clearly demonstrated the opposite. I had only pointed out an imbalance here. I was not asking for a severe reduction in performance or an asset removal. I play as a scout, heavy and assault with the odd logi session thrown in. I see EVERY side of the game. I play with players of many skill levels, talk directly to CCP developers and run trainning session and a channel to help new players. There are issues all over the game. But pointing an issue out in one area does not mean I am blind to others. It simply menas I am pointing out an issue. For clarity. Do you think rails ROF, damage, range, HP, elevation and use of the redline is just fine as it is now? Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight

CLONE117 planetary retaliation organisation ACME Holding Conglomerate 646	Posted - 2014.02.07 19:37:00 - [51] - Quote in a few ways yes. in others no. just pointing out one issue and focusing on fixing it will most often times create 20 more issues. safer to find a fix that wont cause the most problems.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 186	Posted - 2014.02.07 19:53:00 - [52] - Quote -1 Rail tanks are the only thing besides a good fg that keeps the tank/derpship spammers from running rampant all over the map unchecked, until this problem is solved, rail tanks are fine. Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation Legacy Rising 88	Posted - 2014.02.07 19:59:00 - [53] - Quote Rogue Saint wrote: So what is the counter for derpships? Swarms are pointless, forges are an option but you can't be sure you have a decent forge gunner in the team so whats left? Rail Gun tank! Sure, I'm not a DS pilot, so my comments are invalid, but until there is more sensible counter to DS I'm all for redline rails. Being for redline (aka cowardice) rails, your comments are invalid. I can, you can, hell anyone can kill dropships with the rail turret from anywhere within the combat zone of the map. Its just that they and others can shoot you right back. Calling out "Dropships!" are just a crap excuse for players like you to hide where no one can touch you. "why dont we leave the redline and fight?" "but what if they shoot me?" "what?" Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 2175	Posted - 2014.02.07 20:32:00 - [54] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Hey guys We've had a discussion with the CPM before and are aware of issues around Red Line Railguns - honestly we're not happy with them and it's something we want to address. I personally spoke with Judge last night about this and we threw around some suggestions. As far as I'm aware, it's unfortunately not a simple fix because of the way that the projectiles are handled (and they're not a server-side change). I'll be forwarding this video on to Wolfman/Remnant though and seeing what we can do. :) Thanks for pulling it together - this sort of feedback is great. Yeah right go and remove railguns so that he can stomp around 24/7 with his derpship. Do you know how insanely hard it is to take down a dropship that has 3 shield hardeners with a forgegun? Its extreme difficult cause the charge time and damage had beeing reduced on them and swarms dont even get trough the shield recharge threshold when a hardener is running which means the damage doesnt even stick to shield vehicles. To even further enlight you swarms deal only 59% of their damage against dropships regardless if it is shield or armor. Can you please explain me why a light armoured vehicle is capable to do that? So lets recap: - 2 out of 3 AV plattforms are uselss against dropships (swarms+plasma canon) -only real threat for dropships is a tank with a railgun or a forgegun which barely does the job Judge may sounds you could reason with him but in fact he simply wants that his playstyle cannot be countered. If you touch the railguns then i would like to see forgeguns brought back to their former lvl. Swarm launcher damage efficency vs. dropships increased, lock range extended to 250 meters, swarm missile speed increase by 50%. You have to think about it WHY so many people are using a railtank vs. dropships cause most of the time its the only viable option. When you hit the pilot with a forge he just flips is afterburner on and gets out of range before i get the chance to hit im more then 2 times (proto assault forge). And now about the "waves of opportunity" that judge mentioned. You notice that he has either 3 or 2 hardeners on his fits? With max skills there is no "wave of opportunity" there is just consistant stomping without a chance to strike back. Or lets put it this way: how many deaths does a decent dropship pilot get per match? 1-2 max if you are lucky to catch him. So you really think he needs a buff for his playstyle? I shall show you a world, a world which you cant imagine, a world full off butthurt n00bs at the other end of my gun
Bojo The Mighty L.O.T.I.S. 3089	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:18:00 - [55] - Quote Truly video exposes and explains feedback much more effectively Rifle Changes: DPS, range, and damage
AddictPunk Nyain San Renegade Alliance 11	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:30:00 - [56] - Quote I think they Should raise the price of tanks 1,000,000 ISK militia, so those without tank would be forced to spend much more ISK something up for a maddy / gunlogi. so would cease to be a large tank in the battlefield spam, touched me to play vs 7 tanks and militia ambushed Although I have my tanks are good beat no achievement goals.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1441	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:35:00 - [57] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: Yeah right go and remove railguns so that he can stomp around 24/7 with his derpship. .... Before we go on. Will you acknowledge that I clearly said twice in the video that rails need range and power and that it would be bad to remove them "and we must not do that". Until you can be honest about my opinion It can be hard for us to converse over this issue. The dark cloud wrote: Yeah right go and remove railguns so that he can stomp around 24/7 with his derpship. ....Judge may sounds you could reason with him but in fact he simply wants that his playstyle cannot be countered. Please provide evidence of this. It is an incorrect and unfounded accusation. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 1009	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:35:00 - [58] - Quote Foundation Seldon wrote: All credits to JudgeRhadamanthus for the video. Send any likes over to him at : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1806881#post1806881 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHy6CXWk3K4 A FANTASTIC look at the problem with Redline Rails in their current state of the game. Check it out. @Judge: Even though you oversimplified the railgun usage (railgun range was demonstrated at very optimum range and hitting DSs isn't always as simple) I too agree to the angular elevation reduction. (actually, as smart rail tankers use terrain to their advantage the effective elevation can be as high as 70' with some maneuvering). It would make sense for DSs to be better counter towards redline rails as they have and should have enough vulnerability towads their 'prey' at range. Personally I think damamods having +30% effect that makes alpha monstrously effective is part of the problem. Masochism L5.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 10624	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:58:00 - [59] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: The dark cloud wrote: Yeah right go and remove railguns so that he can stomp around 24/7 with his derpship. .... Before we go on. Will you acknowledge that I clearly said twice in the video that rails need range and power and that it would be bad to remove them "and we must not do that". Until you can be honest about my opinion It can be hard for us to converse over this issue. The dark cloud wrote: Yeah right go and remove railguns so that he can stomp around 24/7 with his derpship. ....Judge may sounds you could reason with him but in fact he simply wants that his playstyle cannot be countered. Please provide evidence of this. It is an incorrect and unfounded accusation. I miss the days when tank drivers had the tiniest degree of intelligence. Now it's just..... See above Videos / Fiction Closed Beta Vet; Incubus Pilot
CLONE117 planetary retaliation organisation ACME Holding Conglomerate 647	Posted - 2014.02.07 22:00:00 - [60] - Quote flying or driving out of the redline a little ways back and dropping an uplink doesnt turn the tide of battle for a team thats already being slaughtered at the redline. its really only possible in better balanced matches. but when the enemy team redlines at the beginning and is just destroying. it doesnt do much for aiding. it only makes a few of them go to that objective thats been hacked and take it back pretty easily. and suddenly your back to being completely redlined.

Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1442	Posted - 2014.02.07 22:15:00 - [61] - Quote My point was that you can get out of the redline when pushed back. Also how is fighting out any more useful or effective? Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
CLONE117 planetary retaliation organisation ACME Holding Conglomerate 647	Posted - 2014.02.07 22:28:00 - [62] - Quote if the current losing team can make a push out of the redzone and actually manage to capture some objectives then theres a chance for them to win the match. rarely do i see anything like this happen. if the enemy team has u redlined bad. theres almost next to no chance of pushing back or winning. as most likely they would hold all of the objectives. and even if u manage to drive an lav through it all and hack an objective. it wont stay that way. which is one cause of redline sniping and rails in the first place.
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 564	Posted - 2014.02.07 23:02:00 - [63] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: My point was that you can get out of the redline when pushed back. Also how is fighting out any more useful or effective? Edit: I seem to have quoted the wrong thing.. oh well Oh, another thing, apparently when you demonstrated the dropship getting one-hit-killed, there were two impact sounds, meaning you got hit by a small lag spike and it was actually 2 rounds that hit your stationary vehicle. The kill screen would have been the only confirmation, and I notice it was rather abruptly cut away. Also, if you don't like the redline theory you could possibly look at the Orange Line theory I made earlier. Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote: Or... one could simply retune the redline instead of removing it in entirety... First by extending the area of all prior redline areas back a ways, and then designating it with an orange border to differentiate the regions. However, if you travel into the enemy orange line the further you go the LESS your maximum armor and shield become, and if you exit the orange, they restore to normal. If you've ever played Runescape and tried the "Wilderness" before you'd know how these advancing regions work, but instead of going up a wilderness level, the affected party looses max HP relative to the tier they enter... so.. Outside of orange 100% all stats, Area 1 --90% shield and armor (largest region mainly for deployment) Area 2 (within handheld range of spawn) -50% shield and armor and -10% weapon damage Area 3 (inside spawn proximity regions) -80% shield and armor and - 30% weapon damage Defenses would be indestructible very-short-range manual turret systems that can target things within the orange region only, but loose power if the target is in a lower ranked region. This way the complainers could run into the orange line to deal with troops/tanks they feel to be problematic. Would probably promote heavily dampened scouts. Example, If I had 100 shield and 100 armor, and ran into area 3, I would be left with 20 shield and 20 armor, and would not be able to heal over that until I left into area 2, then I would be able to heal back up to 50/50... and upon leaving all zones would be back to 100/100 maximum possible healing. Zone auras are unable to kill players. If you can read this, it means you are reading. Unless you are skimming
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1442	Posted - 2014.02.07 23:09:00 - [64] - Quote Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote: ....when you demonstrated the dropship getting one-hit-killed, there were two impact sounds, meaning you got hit by a small lag spike and it was actually 2 rounds that hit your stationary vehicle. . I never said it was a OHK. IT was in-fact 2 rail shots. I watched it frame by frame and counted the frame timer (on the edit software as YT vids are not good for this) and I took 2 shots in 0.25 seconds. This is the evidence I use use to back up the ROF claims I made later about 0.25 second deaths. Also I am goint to collect the forums redline solutions and, with credit to the authors, out them in a new video. I will think yours through and consider using it. I think I may have to draw it as it has some serious TTK and DPS implications. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 564	Posted - 2014.02.07 23:18:00 - [65] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote: ....when you demonstrated the dropship getting one-hit-killed, there were two impact sounds, meaning you got hit by a small lag spike and it was actually 2 rounds that hit your stationary vehicle. . I never said it was a OHK. IT was in-fact 2 rail shots. I watched it frame by frame and counted the frame timer (on the edit software as YT vids are not good for this) and I took 2 shots in 0.25 seconds. This is the evidence I use use to back up the ROF claims I made later about 0.25 second deaths. Also I am goint to collect the forums redline solutions and, with credit to the authors, out them in a new video. I will think yours through and consider using it. I think I may have to draw it as it has some serious TTK and DPS implications. Ah I see. I guess I just made an assumption when watching last night because of being tired, and didn't consciously update that. My only question now, is how in the heck did they git the ROF so high? If you can read this, it means you are reading. Unless you are skimming

CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 1415	Posted - 2014.02.08 02:33:00 - [66] - Quote Severance Pay wrote: Sounds to me like you weren't even listening to the narrator. I appreciate your input and even more I appreciate your time to read and watch. I want to point out the focus of this video. You are talking about making weapon adjustments when what is discussed is not the issue with the weapon itself. The problem is the redline. The video proves holes in the game mechanics due to the redline i.e. "I must put my isk on the line to participate, and this guy can safely sit behind the redline with little to no risk of losing isk." There are snipers, tanks, and etc that take advantage of this. "I'm not saying nerf railtanks, but perhaps negate their ability to attack from the redline or to attack from extreme ranges." I had a chat with the Narrator himself last night. The issue is ultimately the redline, yes, but that is being exaggerated by the range of the railgun turret allowing the tank to safely camp beyond reach. CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian


CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 1415	Posted - 2014.02.08 02:34:00 - [67] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: Yeah right go and remove railguns so that he can stomp around 24/7 with his derpship. That's not at all what I said - and there are no plans to remove railguns altogether. But, I personally think their long range is what allows them to sit out of harm's way and dish out damage to Dropships. CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian

Aeon Amadi Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 4816	Posted - 2014.02.08 02:44:00 - [68] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: The dark cloud wrote: Yeah right go and remove railguns so that he can stomp around 24/7 with his derpship. That's not at all what I said - and there are no plans to remove railguns altogether. But, I personally think their long range is what allows them to sit out of harm's way and dish out damage to Dropships. I'd recommend some caution on how you guys proceed with this. Sure, redline sniping/railgunning is a problem but reducing the range on those tools directly impacts intended play-style as well. It's important to remember that this is a symptom of the game mode as well. I know a lot of people say that reducing the range on the sniper rifle would be the best way to go about dampening redline sniping but all that really does is negatively impact the players that don't. If they're going to redline camp, no amount of reduced range is going to stop them. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 2176	Posted - 2014.02.08 02:45:00 - [69] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: The dark cloud wrote: Yeah right go and remove railguns so that he can stomp around 24/7 with his derpship. That's not at all what I said - and there are no plans to remove railguns altogether. But, I personally think their long range is what allows them to sit out of harm's way and dish out damage to Dropships. Railguns are supposed to have long range. I dare you to change too much on it cause it could ruin the turret for good. Keep allways in mind how "adjustments" to weapon and turrets stats ended up so far: -Large missiles still garbage and its like winning the jackpot in a lottery if you kill a infantry player with em -Laser rifles nerfed and since then every 1 just laughs manically at the guy wielding it -flaylock got nefed so hard that it would be better to melee somebody then shoting that thing. Except you want to look like an idiot. I could continue the list but you get the point. How about you would simply create a large forcefield instead of a "redline"? Where you cant fire from inside or shot from the outside into it. And yes you allready have the technology at your hands to pull this off. Ya know the forcefield that the MCC has where you jump out. Just create a efffect accross the whole redline. This would put a end to the whole redline sniper/railgun tank debate. I shall show you a world, a world which you cant imagine, a world full off butthurt n00bs at the other end of my gun

CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 1424	Posted - 2014.02.08 02:49:00 - [70] - Quote Totally valid points - we would look to be careful and not nerf them in to oblivion as they're very much intended to be a long range weapon! Either way, as I mentioned previously I don't believe it's a "simple" fix unfortunately. CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian


Jimbo Boilstaff THE MASSIVE DYNAMIC 91	Posted - 2014.02.08 02:59:00 - [71] - Quote Great video Judge.... Personally I think i major problem is the ease of fitting tanks..... By taking the 2nd/3rd guns out,, they free up plenty of cpu/pg to build glass cannons out of militia// basic tank models (slap some aurum damage mods and a proto rail turret you're laughing) which can sit proudly up high in the redzone,,, but were they to take to the field they'd be doomed at the merest molehill Perhaps methods such as limiting the meta level of vehicle turrets to the meta level of the 'hull' they're being put on (thus making higher level tanks more of a possibility than the future nightmare that awaits as things stand).... Or forcing tanks to fit with all 3 turrets (but allow them to close those spots for the antisocial tankers) if you've skilled enough into something,,, then by all means have a powerful tool,,, but its far too easy to get a tough as nails tank (it's almost like when LAV's were unlimited for everyone and we all ended up in deathrace2000)
Miokai Zahou The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 133	Posted - 2014.02.08 03:14:00 - [72] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Totally valid points - we would look to be careful and not nerf them in to oblivion as they're very much intended to be a long range weapon! Either way, as I mentioned previously I don't believe it's a "simple" fix unfortunately. What you need to do is stop looking at fixing the red line camping issue (sniper/railgun) as they are fine as it is and introduce more terrain to take cover in instead of the vast openness that all but the city map has and give incentives to snipers by introducing more areas where they can be camping outside the red line. To fix the issue where a team is red lined and can't get out of it thus railgun camping/sniper is not there fault, why not introduce a mechanic that allows the MCC to aoe any enemy team member(s) that are sitting X meters from the red line and deals a considerable amount of damage but not enough to kill them. Apply restrictions as you see fit to the mechanic but by all accounts the red line, railguns and sniper rifle (some issues with the draw distance, hit detection and rendering still needs fixing!) are fine. Noob isn't really a status, it's the online equivalent of a 5-year old calling you a poopy fart head.
STB WIZARD SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 0	Posted - 2014.02.08 03:15:00 - [73] - Quote Ok I'm kinda late and know there's many opinions on this topic. As a tanker (rail) there are many ways to stop us, we're not unstoppable, and we don't defeat everything. A smart ads will be aware of us on the field, knowing that they can just sit anywhere without being fly swatted out of the air, and they are one of the most effective anti tanks out there with a good crew. Now to know that if you do hunt down a tank or keep them from doing anything while on the field then your doing your job with or without the points you felt you should have made. Bottom line, if you find a tanker that you have knocked out mult of his tanks and he just keeps them coming then that's that, he's a tanker, that's his job, that's what it takes. Now if you can't get your ads on the field then that's the tanker doing his job, bottom line. As for redline tanking, that ** sucks, agreed but there are opt for them too. As a tanker, it's about the hunt and if you can't catch that ********** in the redline, you move around and find a spot, these maps are too huge to complain if your spawning in the same place every time. Now yes triple stacked dmg mods are hard to take but simple triple stacked resistance works great, yeah heads up fights don't work to we'll but if you can get away with what you have you can turn the tide simply. Now as on option to CCP they can bring back siege mode (I'm not sure that's spelt right) where the dmg of your rail is increased only in a stationary position, and/or range is affected, that would put all rails out of the redline opt. Seeing how it would take time for them to setup position and once there getting hit the same delay would exists. Idk that's all I got.
WUT ANG D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 86	Posted - 2014.02.08 03:54:00 - [74] - Quote Rails should be long range just not 600m (across the map) make it like 400 then they will be forced to come off that hill and CCP PLEASE DO SOMETHING ABOUT HAVS ON TOP OF TOWERS. Oh can anyone tell me if this looks right Swarms 175m Rail Turret 600m Blaster Turret 225 (the longest I've been killed by one) Missile Turret ? I haven't seen a long distance kill yet cause their not really used. Missile Turret from Asslt Dropship 215 my longest death SWARMS SUCK I WANT MY SP BACK Swarm SP Refund Please!!!!!!! "LONG LIVE DARK LEGION"
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 565	Posted - 2014.02.08 10:37:00 - [75] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Totally valid points - we would look to be careful and not nerf them in to oblivion as they're very much intended to be a long range weapon! Either way, as I mentioned previously I don't believe it's a "simple" fix unfortunately. That's the whole reasoning behind the "Orange Line" I suggested prior. It opens up the entirety of the back area to counterattacks, while still giving the defenders an advantage. This would permit enemy players to flank up through the region and potentially destroy the enemy units designed with no resistances for sniping only. Such as placing a pile of remotes into a tank's favorite sniping position, or rolling a tank of your own up to give it a scare. ETC. but in going in you open yourself to being countered by the base-only defenses and the reduced performance within the enemy territory. If you can read this, it means you are reading. Unless you are skimming
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2431	Posted - 2014.02.08 11:45:00 - [76] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: As for railgun damage, infantry wanted turrets to have ammo so it was always going to do more damage than the handheld FG Plus railgun turrets can fire across all of the map, sometimes you think it is a tank but in fact its a guy in an installation Railguns can track but the shell has travel time and also can dip at extreme ranges so you generally have to lead your target, this is a skill to do 8000dmg in a quater of a second, yea now your lying your ass off I fly DS and im fine with it, i dont even use ADS half the time so my agility is that of a rock anyways but i make up for it with defence, proper flying and you can easily survive in compounds and under 100m and know your area you can avoid smashing into buildings and GTFO out of the way Spine cresent is the only map i really ever see you mention, on that map the rail installations are my main enemy, most railtanks pilots cant hit **** when its moving but the installations have better accuracy but then again i squad with ppl who can use rails so i act as bait find the tank and while they are shooting at me my squad takes them out But spine cresent itself is okay to fly around, remove the installations and its great, sure a tank may get dropped in but it takes 3 shots to take me out and if your not moving fast after the 1 let alone 2nd your dead and hiding in the compound is fine since they tend to have high walls massive towers and break LOS to you Elevation can be tampered with, you are assuming the land the tank is on is level, yet i could go up a slight incline which helps my elevation which means i can shoot targets which are higher up because i used my terrain to my advantage, you nerf the elevation of the turret doesnt matter because they can use the terrain to shoot higher up so what then nerf the terrain? As for the redline needs to be a shield you cannot re-enter is all fine and dandy but thats a massive buff to DS and why is that? thats because the actualy flying zone is extended by a large amount so for example you could fly alot further into the back of the spawn than a tank can go before you even get a redline warning so that redline rail maybe 150m in the redline yet your DS can easily fly 300m back into the spawn before you get a redline warning Why wil judge only respond to the yes men who agree with making games DS heaven and that they can never be shot down while he can go into his spawn becauses not effected by the redline shield since its extended for DS Intelligence is OP
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1622	Posted - 2014.02.08 12:03:00 - [77] - Quote Reduce the optimal range of Railguns (both turrets and installations) and Sniper Rifles to 300-400 meters and keep their effective range at 500-600 meters. This will keep them both as long range weapons, but they would be at risk when operating. If that is done you could even consider upping the damage of the non-Thales Sniper Rifles without making them OP. With their current 600 meters optimal range the damage should absolutely stay where it is, but with a lower optimal range I really think that Sniper Rifles could get a little more damage. Winner of the EU Squad Cup & the closed beta Tester's Tournament. Go Go Power Rangers! R.I.P MAG.
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 186	Posted - 2014.02.08 12:10:00 - [78] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Why wil judge only respond to the yes men who agree with making games DS heaven and that they can never be shot down while he can go into his spawn becauses not effected by the redline shield since its extended for DS That's because people don't read posts without punctuation. Seriously, dude, you've been posting like this all thread long. How about being considerate to other people and writing in a legible way? It's far easier to pay attention when reading isn't physically painful.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2431	Posted - 2014.02.08 12:23:00 - [79] - Quote Sole Fenychs wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Why wil judge only respond to the yes men who agree with making games DS heaven and that they can never be shot down while he can go into his spawn becauses not effected by the redline shield since its extended for DS That's because people don't read posts without punctuation. Seriously, dude, you've been posting like this all thread long. How about being considerate to other people and writing in a legible way? It's far easier to pay attention when reading isn't physically painful. Poor excuse Its not like im writing in shorthand Basically it seems anyone that disagrees with him he ignores Intelligence is OP
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1622	Posted - 2014.02.08 12:26:00 - [80] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Poor excuse Its not like im writing in shorthand Basically it seems anyone that disagrees with him he ignores Nope. People like you and Spkr are just ignored by everyone because you guys only want invincible tanks and don't care about anything else. Winner of the EU Squad Cup & the closed beta Tester's Tournament. Go Go Power Rangers! R.I.P MAG.

Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2431	Posted - 2014.02.08 12:28:00 - [81] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Poor excuse Its not like im writing in shorthand Basically it seems anyone that disagrees with him he ignores Nope. People like you and Spkr are just ignored by everyone because you guys only want invincible tanks and don't care about anything else. While its okay to have invincible dropships and dont care about anything else Gotcha Intelligence is OP
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1448	Posted - 2014.02.08 13:25:00 - [82] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Why wil judge only respond to the yes men who agree with making games DS heaven and that they can never be shot down while he can go into his spawn becauses not effected by the redline shield since its extended for DS Because of this responce way back after you first posted. Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: No rails = DS heaven .......... You keep saying no rails = DS heaven. Which I myself explicitly stated the opposite to on two distinct occasions in the video and multiple times on the forum . Could you acknowledge please in your next post, as you keep throwing this at me, that you understand that I have explicitly advocated that rails must stay................... Until you can take ownership of your misrepresentations I will hold back responding to you. You repeatedly ignore my clarifications and just continue to use the same argument you always do no matter what evidence is provided to you. You are just not listening, and this makes reasoned discussion with you and others in here difficult. Admit I am not advocating rail removal and we can move on. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2431	Posted - 2014.02.08 13:30:00 - [83] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Why wil judge only respond to the yes men who agree with making games DS heaven and that they can never be shot down while he can go into his spawn becauses not effected by the redline shield since its extended for DS Because of this responce way back after you first posted. Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: No rails = DS heaven .......... You keep saying no rails = DS heaven. Which I myself explicitly stated the opposite to on two distinct occasions in the video and multiple times on the forum . Could you acknowledge please in your next post, as you keep throwing this at me, that you understand that I have explicitly advocated that rails must stay................... Until you can take ownership of your misrepresentations I will hold back responding to you. You repeatedly ignore my clarifications and just continue to use the same argument you always do no matter what evidence is provided to you. You are just not listening, and this makes reasoned discussion with you and others in here difficult. Admit I am not advocating rail removal and we can move on. You made an entire thread devoted to the removal of rails, that is your 1st choice if it was an option to you, a leopard doesnt change its spots Keep asking for unkillable dropships but instead learn to fly better instead Intelligence is OP
Keeriam Miray R 0 N 1 N 321	Posted - 2014.02.08 13:32:00 - [84] - Quote idk if most ppl know this & maaaybe it's important: railgun installations do 109% to shields & 89% to armor, which is theoretically wrong... -í-ç-¦-ü-é-+-+-¦-ï-+ -+-+-¦-¦-é -¦-ï-é-î -é-+-+-î-¦-+ -+-+-¦-+-¦-+-+-¦. -í-ç-¦-ü-é-+-+-¦, -ü-ç-¦-ü-é-+-+-¦, -ü-ç-¦-ü-é-+-+-¦, -ü-ç-¦-ü-é-+-+-¦...
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1449	Posted - 2014.02.08 13:33:00 - [85] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: You made an entire thread devoted to the removal of rails, that is your 1st choice if it was an option to you, a leopard doesnt change its spots Keep asking for unkillable dropships but instead learn to fly better instead Since you will NOT listen I am through with you until you acknowledge my clear thoughts on rail removal, just watch the video again. Read this link. And also since your last comment was clearly an attempt to insult me I am feeling more disappointed with you. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2431	Posted - 2014.02.08 13:58:00 - [86] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: You made an entire thread devoted to the removal of rails, that is your 1st choice if it was an option to you, a leopard doesnt change its spots Keep asking for unkillable dropships but instead learn to fly better instead Since you will NOT listen I am through with you until you acknowledge my clear thoughts on rail removal, just watch the video again. Read this link. And also since your last comment was clearly an attempt to insult me I am feeling more disappointed with you. I cant listen on a forum, i can read the forums tho and i read that epic 15page QQ about big bad rails and how you want them removed Also that last line is a hint, learn to fly better, the more you do something the better you get at it, the old saying practise makes perfect, if its an insult is simply because you dont think your good enough Rails dont effect me or my DS, i can fly on spine cresent all day long if i need to, i fit my DS right because i expect rails in every game i play but also im squadded up with enough people who can help to counter the rail Intelligence is OP
richiesutie 2 The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 755	Posted - 2014.02.08 14:04:00 - [87] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: You made an entire thread devoted to the removal of rails, that is your 1st choice if it was an option to you, a leopard doesnt change its spots Keep asking for unkillable dropships but instead learn to fly better instead Since you will NOT listen I am through with you until you acknowledge my clear thoughts on rail removal, just watch the video again. Read this link. And also since your last comment was clearly an attempt to insult me I am feeling more disappointed with you. I cant listen on a forum, i can read the forums tho and i read that epic 15page QQ about big bad rails and how you want them removed Also that last line is a hint, learn to fly better, the more you do something the better you get at it, the old saying practise makes perfect, if its an insult is simply because you dont think your good enough Rails dont effect me or my DS, i can fly on spine cresent all day long if i need to, i fit my DS right because i expect rails in every game i play but also im squadded up with enough people who can help to counter the rail In other words you run in tanks squads? compilation of Patch/build notes Check it out! :)
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2432	Posted - 2014.02.08 14:12:00 - [88] - Quote richiesutie 2 wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: You made an entire thread devoted to the removal of rails, that is your 1st choice if it was an option to you, a leopard doesnt change its spots Keep asking for unkillable dropships but instead learn to fly better instead Since you will NOT listen I am through with you until you acknowledge my clear thoughts on rail removal, just watch the video again. Read this link. And also since your last comment was clearly an attempt to insult me I am feeling more disappointed with you. I cant listen on a forum, i can read the forums tho and i read that epic 15page QQ about big bad rails and how you want them removed Also that last line is a hint, learn to fly better, the more you do something the better you get at it, the old saying practise makes perfect, if its an insult is simply because you dont think your good enough Rails dont effect me or my DS, i can fly on spine cresent all day long if i need to, i fit my DS right because i expect rails in every game i play but also im squadded up with enough people who can help to counter the rail In other words you run in tanks squads? I run with people who can use assult/logi/heavy suits/fg/swarms/ar/cr and vehicles My squad isnt just everyone assaults and then hide in the MCC because they dont have secondary roles I got a flexible squad Intelligence is OP
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 681	Posted - 2014.02.08 14:54:00 - [89] - Quote Great video and post, but as has been previously mentioned - this is a map design issue, once the redline sinks below the burnzone.. it doesn't matter what you do in your redline, you can't see the battlefield, you have no line of sight on the battlefield, you can't shoot anything on the battlefield... Most maps unfortunately are ringed with giant mountains that tower above the battlefield. CCP logicloop really needs to rework the maps to sink the redline below the "sea level" of the battlefield then you'll start to see all these problems magically shrink away.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 10628	Posted - 2014.02.08 14:57:00 - [90] - Quote Justicar Karnellia wrote: Great video and post, but as has been previously mentioned - this is a map design issue, once the redline sinks below the burnzone.. it doesn't matter what you do in your redline, you can't see the battlefield, you have no line of sight on the battlefield, you can't shoot anything on the battlefield... Most maps unfortunately are ringed with giant mountains that tower above the battlefield. CCP logicloop really needs to rework the maps to sink the redline below the "sea level" of the battlefield then you'll start to see all these problems magically shrink away. Making every map a plateau just to try and fix railguns is worse than just fixing railguns Videos / Fiction Closed Beta Vet; Incubus Pilot

DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 10628	Posted - 2014.02.08 14:59:00 - [91] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Rails dont effect me or my DS, i can fly on spine cresent all day long if i need to, i fit my DS right because i expect rails in every game i play but also im squadded up with enough people who can help to counter the rail Lmao, and this is you talking out your ass Videos please, no one believes you. Videos / Fiction Closed Beta Vet; Incubus Pilot
Logi Stician The Vanguardians INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 203	Posted - 2014.02.08 15:17:00 - [92] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: TROLL TROLL TROLL TROLL TROLL TROLL TROLL TROLL TROLL Are you guys not seeing it? "...and I'm the seventh out of seven sons, my pappy was a pistol, I'm a son of a gun. "
Harpyja Molon Labe. 1151	Posted - 2014.02.08 15:38:00 - [93] - Quote Completely remove the redline while adding indestructible large turret installations on the MCC capable of only looking down to the current redzone. The terminals should be inside and these turrets should have no AI. Also while on the topic of railguns, they should immobilize the tank when there is a charge. I don't want a nerf to their range to make people use them as CQC AV, obliterating my role as a CQC missile tank. Not being able to move while firing will allow CQC tanks to outmaneuver the railgun. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Beld Errmon 0uter.Heaven 1299	Posted - 2014.02.08 15:46:00 - [94] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: It is good to see they care about this difficult issue. Your video is a work of brilliance and I am logging in now to send you 10mil isk to show how much I approve of the work you've done regarding this issue - signed ADS pilot and tanker.
GVGMODE WorstPlayersEver 131	Posted - 2014.02.08 16:19:00 - [95] - Quote Good thing I have my dropship fits ready, I'm ready to bring death from heaven to those mundane infantry peasants - The turret assault dropships is extremely good since they are so easy to maneuver (360 in seconds) - The altitude they are capable can make them reach the map ceiling, where they are literally immune to almost anything, they are supposed to be low altitude vehicles yet they have the map ceiling when things get rough ( Isn't that a redline too?) - If you see a rail tank you can just get above him, since the tank turrets are not able to aim them due to gun depression levels - Waves of opportunity? LOL an ADS can be on hardeners 24/7 and well afterburners It would be fun to have a rail turret nerf. It would turn the battlefield into a slaughter since ADS and blaster tanks will be rampant So from a tank perspective +1 for this Takahiro Kashuken wrote: As for railgun damage, infantry wanted turrets to have ammo so it was always going to do more damage than the handheld FG Plus railgun turrets can fire across all of the map, sometimes you think it is a tank but in fact its a guy in an installation Railguns can track but the shell has travel time and also can dip at extreme ranges so you generally have to lead your target, this is a skill to do 8000dmg in a quater of a second, yea now your lying your ass off I fly DS and im fine with it, i dont even use ADS half the time so my agility is that of a rock anyways but i make up for it with defence, proper flying and you can easily survive in compounds and under 100m and know your area you can avoid smashing into buildings and GTFO out of the way Spine cresent is the only map i really ever see you mention, on that map the rail installations are my main enemy, most railtanks pilots cant hit ** when its moving but the installations have better accuracy but then again i squad with ppl who can use rails so i act as bait find the tank and while they are shooting at me my squad takes them out But spine cresent itself is okay to fly around, remove the installations and its great, sure a tank may get dropped in but it takes 3 shots to take me out and if your not moving fast after the 1 let alone 2nd your dead and hiding in the compound is fine since they tend to have high walls massive towers and break LOS to you Elevation can be tampered with, you are assuming the land the tank is on is level, yet i could go up a slight incline which helps my elevation which means i can shoot targets which are higher up because i used my terrain to my advantage, you nerf the elevation of the turret doesnt matter because they can use the terrain to shoot higher up so what then nerf the terrain? As for the redline needs to be a shield you cannot re-enter is all fine and dandy but thats a massive buff to DS and why is that? thats because the actualy flying zone is extended by a large amount so for example you could fly alot further into the back of the spawn than a tank can go before you even get a redline warning so that redline rail maybe 150m in the redline yet your DS can easily fly 300m back into the spawn before you get a redline warning The dark cloud wrote:** Yeah right go and remove railguns so that he can stomp around 24/7 with his derpship. Do you know how insanely hard it is to take down a dropship that has 3 shield hardeners with a forgegun? Its extreme difficult cause the charge time and damage had beeing reduced on them and swarms dont even get trough the shield recharge threshold when a hardener is running which means the damage doesnt even stick to shield vehicles. To even further enlight you swarms deal only 59% of their damage against dropships regardless if it is shield or armor. Can you please explain me why a light armoured vehicle is capable to do that? So lets recap: - 2 out of 3 AV plattforms are uselss against dropships (swarms+plasma canon) -only real threat for dropships is a tank with a railgun or a forgegun which barely does the job Judge may sounds you could reason with him but in fact he simply wants that his playstyle cannot be countered. If you touch the railguns then i would like to see forgeguns brought back to their former lvl. Swarm launcher damage efficency vs. dropships increased, lock range extended to 250 meters, swarm missile speed increase by 50%. You have to think about it WHY so many people are using a railtank vs. dropships cause most of the time its the only viable option. When you hit the pilot with a forge he just flips is afterburner on and gets out of range before i get the chance to hit im more then 2 times (proto assault forge). And now about the "waves of opportunity" that judge mentioned. You notice that he has either 3 or 2 hardeners on his fits? With max skills there is no "wave of opportunity" there is just consistant stomping without a chance to strike back. Or lets put it this way: how many deaths does a decent dropship pilot get per match? 1-2 max if you are lucky to catch him. So you really think he needs a buff for his playstyle? Dual Pilot (Tank / Assault Dropship) FREE DUST ITEMS HERE
Sir Snugglz Red Star. EoN. 353	Posted - 2014.02.08 18:34:00 - [96] - Quote but but... no nerf/buffs to anything... Just increase the battlefield like 200-400m and push the redline similarly. it works Luck is just one of my skills
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1450	Posted - 2014.02.08 18:38:00 - [97] - Quote Sir Snugglz wrote: but but... no nerf/buffs to anything... Just increase the battlefield like 200-400m and push the redline similarly. it works The most solid solution for sure, but the dev team is pushed as it is. Map redesign is a long term solution. We need something sooner I feel. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Harpyja Molon Labe. 1151	Posted - 2014.02.08 18:48:00 - [98] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Sir Snugglz wrote: but but... no nerf/buffs to anything... Just increase the battlefield like 200-400m and push the redline similarly. it works The most solid solution for sure, but the dev team is pushed as it is. Map redesign is a long term solution. We need something sooner I feel. Remove redline - add large turret installations to the sides of the MCC looking down. See my post further up, I believe it's number 93. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Sir Snugglz Red Star. EoN. 353	Posted - 2014.02.08 18:56:00 - [99] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Sir Snugglz wrote: but but... no nerf/buffs to anything... Just increase the battlefield like 200-400m and push the redline similarly. it works The most solid solution for sure, but the dev team is pushed as it is. Map redesign is a long term solution. We need something sooner I feel. Remove redline - add large turret installations to the sides of the MCC looking down. See my post further up, I believe it's number 93. Not really... the map has already been designed for huge scale warfare... only like 40% of all maps is actually used. Removing the redline is just the same as pushing it back. :D No redesign, nerfs/buffs, change in redline mechanics... everything stays the same with the exception of high points no longer being in the redline. Luck is just one of my skills
CaoticFox Axis of Chaos 170	Posted - 2014.02.08 19:24:00 - [100] - Quote Dauth Jenkins wrote: Charlotte O'Dell wrote: pretty spot on. map design sucks. the redlines are always elevated over the battlefield. it needs to be the other way around. That may not work.... having the battlefield higher than the red line would make dropping in dropships after the start of the match more dangerous... and on that note, why do FLYING units get dropped of by flying units...why can't they launch from the MCC.. Also why do they have to reload at the ground, and not at the MCC? Maybe it's just me wanting the MCC to do more than just float there and take damage. MCC = Mobile Command Center I havent seen it MOBILE in over 2 years... name should change to CS (Command Ship), or any number of creative NON-"M"CCvarients Im on the FORUMS because im P!$$ED off @ the game. as of 1920 CST USA 02-03-14 i have... 53,765,260 SP

CaoticFox Axis of Chaos 170	Posted - 2014.02.08 19:27:00 - [101] - Quote Sir Snugglz wrote: Harpyja wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Sir Snugglz wrote: but but... no nerf/buffs to anything... Just increase the battlefield like 200-400m and push the redline similarly. it works The most solid solution for sure, but the dev team is pushed as it is. Map redesign is a long term solution. We need something sooner I feel. Remove redline - add large turret installations to the sides of the MCC looking down. See my post further up, I believe it's number 93. Not really... the map has already been designed for huge scale warfare... only like 40% of all maps is actually used. Removing the redline is just the same as pushing it back. :D No redesign, nerfs/buffs, change in redline mechanics... everything stays the same with the exception of high points no longer being in the redline. shouldn't have redLINES... but several NO-FIRE BASES, spherical - NOFLY-ZONES... 100% safe (both ways) far enough apart and larger enough to prevent 100% CAMP-ABILITY (both ways) (both ways) means, cant fire in or out Im on the FORUMS because im P!$$ED off @ the game. as of 1920 CST USA 02-03-14 i have... 53,765,260 SP
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1763	Posted - 2014.02.08 19:39:00 - [102] - Quote Foundation Seldon wrote: All credits to JudgeRhadamanthus for the video. Send any likes over to him at : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1806881#post1806881 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHy6CXWk3K4 A FANTASTIC look at the problem with Redline Rails in their current state of the game. Check it out. There isn't much of a problem really, more just a lack of bringing enough tools for the job. Can't take out an Incubus and not expect it to be challenged by a tank. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1763	Posted - 2014.02.08 19:40:00 - [103] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Redline faggotry ftw I expect this to be fixed SoonTM. If rails can't do anything from the redline, then snipers can't do anything from the redline, and that includes on top of the MCC. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1763	Posted - 2014.02.08 19:42:00 - [104] - Quote Foundation Seldon wrote: True Adamance wrote: About bloody time....players have been telling CCP for months red line rail turrets are ridiculous....I hope CCP finally takes note. Made even more ridiculous thanks to stacking 30% damage mods and a buff to their base damage amounts. Various comments from CCP members make it sound like they've payed attention to Judge's videos and discuss them among the dev team, hopefully they're listening now. We all know what happened to Dust / vehicles when CCP listened to just a few people. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1763	Posted - 2014.02.08 19:43:00 - [105] - Quote Dauth Jenkins wrote: Charlotte O'Dell wrote: pretty spot on. map design sucks. the redlines are always elevated over the battlefield. it needs to be the other way around. That may not work.... having the battlefield higher than the red line would make dropping in dropships after the start of the match more dangerous... and on that note, why do FLYING units get dropped of by flying units...why can't they launch from the MCC.. Also why do they have to reload at the ground, and not at the MCC? Maybe it's just me wanting the MCC to do more than just float there and take damage. Jesus Christ, can't you see this game from a 5-year view? Does everything have to be done the next month? I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1763	Posted - 2014.02.08 19:44:00 - [106] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Hey guys We've had a discussion with the CPM before and are aware of issues around Red Line Railguns - honestly we're not happy with them and it's something we want to address. I personally spoke with Judge last night about this and we threw around some suggestions. As far as I'm aware, it's unfortunately not a simple fix because of the way that the projectiles are handled (and they're not a server-side change). I'll be forwarding this video on to Wolfman/Remnant though and seeing what we can do. :) Thanks for pulling it together - this sort of feedback is great. Can one or two of you guys squad with tankers sometime? I play with Taka practically every day, we'd be more than happy to talk about stuff. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1763	Posted - 2014.02.08 19:47:00 - [107] - Quote Fiddlestaxp wrote: Make railguns behave like the mass driver(of old?). Have the projectile disappear after a certain duration. Make this distance ONLY so short as to make the railguns all but useless on anything but their home point from the red line. Lol wut? Rails are already hard-capped at 600m. You want to nerf their range? Then how about a sniper's maximum range gets nerfed in return too? You really think a turret that long, with so many magnetic rings to accelerate projectiles, will have a short range? I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1763	Posted - 2014.02.08 19:49:00 - [108] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: I don't think changing the firing angle for tanks is a good idea. Being unable to hit something because it is close and high like a Forge Gunner on a roof or a Tank on a ridge sucks. Good Assault Dropships pilots are already a decent enough hazard for tanks if they can get in out dead zones so I am unsure that increasing those is a great idea (and a shout out to all the DS pilots that have run me out of a location; damn fine job). Saying that tanker could easily see the dropship coming before it gets in the tank's deadzone is a little hazy as the dropship can maneuver into position fairly easily without being spotted, providing the tank isn't being a giant redline sissy. The problem is the fact that the only way to beat a redline tank is to be in the redline. Pause the video at about 2 minutes. The enemy tank in the redline probably was in the redline because Judge's team had a sniper tank (left side of the map). I am an avid tanker, I have been since about 2 months of playing the game so maybe early March 2013, but the redline railgun thing sucks. Not being able to field a tank without getting pelted by some giant sissy deep in the enemy redline is really lame. I don't know what the fix is but I eagerly await it. Good ADS pilots, which doesn't include Ramalamadingdong. You know what I do when I see an enemy redline tank? I go to THEIR redline, and destroy it. Yeah, I complain that he's pulling a daishi, but then I kill the scrub. I don't allow red vehicles to exist when I'm in a tank. All must die. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1763	Posted - 2014.02.08 19:52:00 - [109] - Quote richiesutie 2 wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: You made an entire thread devoted to the removal of rails, that is your 1st choice if it was an option to you, a leopard doesnt change its spots Keep asking for unkillable dropships but instead learn to fly better instead Since you will NOT listen I am through with you until you acknowledge my clear thoughts on rail removal, just watch the video again. Read this link. And also since your last comment was clearly an attempt to insult me I am feeling more disappointed with you. I cant listen on a forum, i can read the forums tho and i read that epic 15page QQ about big bad rails and how you want them removed Also that last line is a hint, learn to fly better, the more you do something the better you get at it, the old saying practise makes perfect, if its an insult is simply because you dont think your good enough Rails dont effect me or my DS, i can fly on spine cresent all day long if i need to, i fit my DS right because i expect rails in every game i play but also im squadded up with enough people who can help to counter the rail In other words you run in tanks squads? Yes, we squad with tankers!! A novel, revolutionary idea, isn't it!????!?!! I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Aaroniero d'Lioncourt 0uter.Heaven 362	Posted - 2014.02.08 19:55:00 - [110] - Quote His voice and the dropship's engine noise in his videos when he's flying around is making me sleepy...

Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1763	Posted - 2014.02.08 19:57:00 - [111] - Quote WUT ANG wrote: Rails should be long range just not 600m (across the map) make it like 400 then they will be forced to come off that hill and CCP PLEASE DO SOMETHING ABOUT HAVS ON TOP OF TOWERS. Oh can anyone tell me if this looks right Swarms 175m Rail Turret 600m Blaster Turret 225m (the longest I've been killed by one) Missile Turret ? I haven't seen a long distance kill yet cause their not really used. Missile Turret from Asslt Dropship 215m my longest death SWARMS SUCK I WANT MY SP BACK Today's tanks have great range, no reason tanks 20,000 years in the future should have LESS range just because you say so. Dust tanks use very powerful magnetism instead of explosive charges for the railgun, why do you think it's called a railgun? I'll accept a nerf to rail range if snipers get a range nerf. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 10642	Posted - 2014.02.08 20:04:00 - [112] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: WUT ANG wrote: Rails should be long range just not 600m (across the map) make it like 400 then they will be forced to come off that hill and CCP PLEASE DO SOMETHING ABOUT HAVS ON TOP OF TOWERS. Oh can anyone tell me if this looks right Swarms 175m Rail Turret 600m Blaster Turret 225m (the longest I've been killed by one) Missile Turret ? I haven't seen a long distance kill yet cause their not really used. Missile Turret from Asslt Dropship 215m my longest death SWARMS SUCK I WANT MY SP BACK Today's tanks have great range, no reason tanks 20,000 years in the future should have LESS range just because you say so. Dust tanks use very powerful magnetism instead of explosive charges for the railgun, why do you think it's called a railgun? I'll accept a nerf to rail range if snipers get a range nerf. You do realize that this whole topic is about railguns relation to the redline, right? You do know todays tanks can't park in the redline, right? Videos / Fiction Closed Beta Vet; Incubus Pilot
Vell0cet SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 909	Posted - 2014.02.08 20:25:00 - [113] - Quote Great video. I disagree with the proposal to nerf turret elevation though. This would really gimp rail tanks (especially those driving into the middle of the field). I am neither a tanker or a pilot (waiting for Amarr stuff), but I think the obvious hard counter to redline rail sniping should be Dropships getting above them and killing them. The trick of course is how to make changes to the aerial redline mechanics to allow for this to be possible without allowing ADS to spawn camp. I wonder if increasing the time dropships could be in the enemy redline by something like 30-40 seconds might be sufficient. Maybe all hardeners & boosters would be inactive on the drop ships while in enemy airspace. This would allow them to quickly move above a tank, destroy it, and leave the redline, but make it vulnerable to prolonged spawn camping over the enemy redline. Best PvE idea ever!
Foundation Seldon Molon Labe. 436	Posted - 2014.02.08 20:27:00 - [114] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Fiddlestaxp wrote: Make railguns behave like the mass driver(of old?). Have the projectile disappear after a certain duration. Make this distance ONLY so short as to make the railguns all but useless on anything but their home point from the red line. Lol wut? Rails are already hard-capped at 600m. You want to nerf their range? Then how about a sniper's maximum range gets nerfed in return too? You really think a turret that long, with so many magnetic rings to accelerate projectiles, will have a short range? Considering 600m nets them near full map coverage from the redline I don't see that as being unreasonable. If Snipers had a 600m optimal range then I don't think nerfing that would be unreasonable either. The look of the weapon shouldn't have any bearing on how that weapon is balanced. :P Spkr4theDead wrote: Today's tanks have great range, no reason tanks 20,000 years in the future should have LESS range just because you say so. Dust tanks use very powerful magnetism instead of explosive charges for the railgun, why do you think it's called a railgun? I'll accept a nerf to rail range if snipers get a range nerf. This is an irrelevant point at the end of the day. If we were at all concerned about making the game jive with real world war conventions then Tanks wouldn't be able to be effectively operated by a single pilot to begin with. The Railgun could have a 20m range if it provided an overall positive effect to the balance in the game (it wouldn't so I'm not suggesting that). Spkr4theDead wrote: We all know what happened to Dust / vehicles when CCP listened to just a few people. It's a good thing the case for nerfing Rails isn't held by just a few people then. In their current incarnation in the game they're acting like a Shotgun with 600m range. You make comparisons between it and the Sniper rifle but, last time I checked, I couldn't effectively use a Sniper Rifle in 20m just as easily I could use it at 200m. It's overall flexibility compared to other turrets isn't just a problem when it comes to Tank v. Dropship, they're a problem in Tank v. Tank as well. Saga v. Methana Balance
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1763	Posted - 2014.02.08 20:35:00 - [115] - Quote Foundation Seldon wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Fiddlestaxp wrote: Make railguns behave like the mass driver(of old?). Have the projectile disappear after a certain duration. Make this distance ONLY so short as to make the railguns all but useless on anything but their home point from the red line. Lol wut? Rails are already hard-capped at 600m. You want to nerf their range? Then how about a sniper's maximum range gets nerfed in return too? You really think a turret that long, with so many magnetic rings to accelerate projectiles, will have a short range? Considering 600m nets them near full map coverage from the redline I don't see that as being unreasonable. If Snipers had a 600m optimal range then I don't think nerfing that would be unreasonable either. The look of the weapon shouldn't have any bearing on how that weapon is balanced. :P Spkr4theDead wrote: Today's tanks have great range, no reason tanks 20,000 years in the future should have LESS range just because you say so. Dust tanks use very powerful magnetism instead of explosive charges for the railgun, why do you think it's called a railgun? I'll accept a nerf to rail range if snipers get a range nerf. This is an irrelevant point at the end of the day. If we were at all concerned about making the game jive with real world war conventions then Tanks wouldn't be able to be effectively operated by a single pilot to begin with. The Railgun could have a 20m range if it provided an overall positive effect to the balance in the game (it wouldn't so I'm not suggesting that). Spkr4theDead wrote: We all know what happened to Dust / vehicles when CCP listened to just a few people. It's a good thing the case for nerfing Rails isn't held by just a few people then. In their current incarnation in the game they're acting like a Shotgun with 600m range. You make comparisons between it and the Sniper rifle but, last time I checked, I couldn't effectively use a Sniper Rifle in 20m just as easily I could use it at 200m. It's overall flexibility compared to other turrets isn't just a problem when it comes to Tank v. Dropship, they're a problem in Tank v. Tank as well. The look? The look of the weapon? I don't care about the look of the weapon. I care about how it works. It's using electromagnetism to move projectiles at hypersonic speeds. How are rails a problem in tank v tank? Are you mad? Will infantry only be happy when the only turrets tanks have are missile turrets? But wait, tankers will use those too effectively! Then those must be nerfed! Then subsequently removed, and tanks will have no more purpose, and infantry will achieve their goal of having tanks removed. I also love all this "tanks can't be operated by one person BS." In what video game does it require more than one person to operate? Even in World of Tanks, there's a 4-man crew, but it's still a video game, and that one person playing that specific video game controls the whole of the tank. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1763	Posted - 2014.02.08 20:36:00 - [116] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: WUT ANG wrote: Rails should be long range just not 600m (across the map) make it like 400 then they will be forced to come off that hill and CCP PLEASE DO SOMETHING ABOUT HAVS ON TOP OF TOWERS. Oh can anyone tell me if this looks right Swarms 175m Rail Turret 600m Blaster Turret 225m (the longest I've been killed by one) Missile Turret ? I haven't seen a long distance kill yet cause their not really used. Missile Turret from Asslt Dropship 215m my longest death SWARMS SUCK I WANT MY SP BACK Today's tanks have great range, no reason tanks 20,000 years in the future should have LESS range just because you say so. Dust tanks use very powerful magnetism instead of explosive charges for the railgun, why do you think it's called a railgun? I'll accept a nerf to rail range if snipers get a range nerf. You do realize that this whole topic is about railguns relation to the redline, right? You do know todays tanks can't park in the redline, right? There isn't any logical argument, just "I can't stomp with my chosen style, so nerf what's defeating me." Infantry doesn't like tanks, tanks get nerfed, infantry still complains, they want large blasters removed. See? I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Nguruthos IX Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 2453	Posted - 2014.02.08 21:21:00 - [117] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: WUT ANG wrote: Rails should be long range just not 600m (across the map) make it like 400 then they will be forced to come off that hill and CCP PLEASE DO SOMETHING ABOUT HAVS ON TOP OF TOWERS. Oh can anyone tell me if this looks right Swarms 175m Rail Turret 600m Blaster Turret 225m (the longest I've been killed by one) Missile Turret ? I haven't seen a long distance kill yet cause their not really used. Missile Turret from Asslt Dropship 215m my longest death SWARMS SUCK I WANT MY SP BACK Today's tanks have great range, no reason tanks 20,000 years in the future should have LESS range just because you say so. Dust tanks use very powerful magnetism instead of explosive charges for the railgun, why do you think it's called a railgun? I'll accept a nerf to rail range if snipers get a range nerf. You do realize that this whole topic is about railguns relation to the redline, right? You do know todays tanks can't park in the redline, right? lololol
Foundation Seldon Molon Labe. 437	Posted - 2014.02.08 21:59:00 - [118] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: The look? The look of the weapon? I don't care about the look of the weapon. I care about how it works. It's using electromagnetism to move projectiles at hypersonic speeds. How are rails a problem in tank v tank? Are you mad? Will infantry only be happy when the only turrets tanks have are missile turrets? But wait, tankers will use those too effectively! Then those must be nerfed! Then subsequently removed, and tanks will have no more purpose, and infantry will achieve their goal of having tanks removed. I also love all this "tanks can't be operated by one person BS." In what video game does it require more than one person to operate? Even in World of Tanks, there's a 4-man crew, but it's still a video game, and that one person playing that specific video game controls the whole of the tank. I love how you'll simultaneously cite real world conventions (electromagnetism to move projectiles at hypersonic speeds!) to justify not changing the excessive range of the Railgun in the exact same post that you'll use "it's a video game!" to justify the effective 1 man operation of a Tank. If that's not an example of cherry picking then I don't know what is. You're right, it's a video game, which is why we shouldn't be concerned about the real world physics of a particular turret type with respect to its balance. I hope you won't bring up that point anymore. Rails are absolutely a problem in Tank v. Tank as they're the only Large Turret worth fitting on the damn things that won't get you hard countered by any and everything else on the field. Blasters are **** in the vehicle department and Missiles, a turret that's arguably even less effective against infantry than the Large Railgun is, are all but useless against an entire segment of the tanking population (ie. all Shield Tanks) and even if they weren't their anti-vehicle prowess is only useful up close and is only maybe just as effective as Large Railguns within that range. All while the Large Railgun operates hilariously effectively from anywhere between 10 ~ 600m and can take on any type of Tank that's called on the field. Feel free to explain why I should bother with anything else. I'm not an infantry dude by the way. :P Saga v. Methana Balance
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 10646	Posted - 2014.02.09 00:56:00 - [119] - Quote Foundation Seldon wrote: I'm not an infantry dude by the way. :P If you don't agree with and prostrate yourself before Spkr, you're an infantry dude Videos / Fiction Closed Beta Vet; Incubus Pilot
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 270	Posted - 2014.02.09 01:39:00 - [120] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Hey guys We've had a discussion with the CPM before and are aware of issues around Red Line Railguns - honestly we're not happy with them and it's something we want to address. I personally spoke with Judge last night about this and we threw around some suggestions. As far as I'm aware, it's unfortunately not a simple fix because of the way that the projectiles are handled (and they're not a server-side change). I'll be forwarding this video on to Wolfman/Remnant though and seeing what we can do. :) Thanks for pulling it together - this sort of feedback is great. oh wait here's and Idea you get no WPs for actions taken while in the read line.

pink FLUFF Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 67	Posted - 2014.02.09 01:40:00 - [121] - Quote So all in all I like the guys voice and his video is VERY informative. Very well done also. However, he does not tank. It seems he is a dropship pilot that is mad because rail tanks destroy his vehicles, and he should be. You can watch him use the railtank - The way he aims at dropships from afar it seems as if he had never shot at them before. He aims directly at dropships rather than lead them. - The way he fires at the other tank in short bursts. The problem I agree is the redline. The fix for this? Move the MCC's to the edges of the maps. The maps are HUGE. Move the redline back - Force people to bring uplinks. Dropships can get away too quickly - If you miss the 2nd or 3rd shot they are already gone. The Dropship has the ability to move across the battlefield unimpeded. This video is good and informative, but it is coming from someone who does not use the tanks and cries when his dropship dies.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1450	Posted - 2014.02.09 01:52:00 - [122] - Quote pink FLUFF wrote: So all in all I like the guys voice and his video is VERY informative. Very well done also. However, he does not tank. It seems he is a dropship pilot that is mad because rail tanks destroy his vehicles, and he should be. You can watch him use the railtank - The way he aims at dropships from afar it seems as if he had never shot at them before. He aims directly at dropships rather than lead them. - The way he fires at the other tank in short bursts. ...... This video is good and informative, but it is coming from someone who does not use the tanks and cries when his dropship dies. Thanks for the feedback and the kind comments, except the cry bit. That was abit unfair don't you think? I was being rather reasonable I thought. I would like to point out that I do tank. WAYYYYYYY back on page 2 (and I don't expect you to have read all this thread - here is the link to the post) i said this : Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Also, as I stated already on the video comments section I had to keep the DS in my sights so the range would show for the video so I couldn't lead it. It is also why you'll see my spooling each time, so the screen is not obscured by white flashes. I could have hit it if I wanted too. The way you film to get good footage is not the way you always play. For a start I was in the redline. I only did that for the video. Often the best way to play means the footage is not usable, like with rails the shot flash and leading hides the range details. Since the range was the point I just shot straight so you could see the shot would have hit. Simply trying to make sure the evidence is captured. I have a point to make, and that point is not about how I play. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
pink FLUFF Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 67	Posted - 2014.02.09 03:06:00 - [123] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: pink FLUFF wrote: So all in all I like the guys voice and his video is VERY informative. Very well done also. However, he does not tank. It seems he is a dropship pilot that is mad because rail tanks destroy his vehicles, and he should be. You can watch him use the railtank - The way he aims at dropships from afar it seems as if he had never shot at them before. He aims directly at dropships rather than lead them. - The way he fires at the other tank in short bursts. ...... This video is good and informative, but it is coming from someone who does not use the tanks and cries when his dropship dies. Thanks for the feedback and the kind comments, except the cry bit. That was abit unfair don't you think? I was being rather reasonable I thought. I would like to point out that I do tank. WAYYYYYYY back on page 2 (and I don't expect you to have read all this thread - here is the link to the post) i said this : Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Also, as I stated already on the video comments section I had to keep the DS in my sights so the range would show for the video so I couldn't lead it. It is also why you'll see me spooling each time, so the screen is not obscured by white flashes. I could have hit it if I wanted too. The way you film to get good footage is not the way you always play. For a start I was in the redline. I only did that for the video. Often the best way to play means the footage is not usable, like with rails the shot flash and leading hides the range details; and its noisy so can bleed into the narration. Since the range was the point I just shot straight so you could see the shot would have hit. Simply trying to make sure the evidence is captured. I have a point to make, and that point is not about how I play. Then its fine. Good video.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2456	Posted - 2014.02.09 14:34:00 - [124] - Quote Sir Snugglz wrote: but but... no nerf/buffs to anything... Just increase the battlefield like 200-400m and push the redline similarly. it works Snugglz is spot on Zoom out of the map and you see the true size of the district, 5km by 5km you really thing a railgun will cover that lot? Thats the problem here nerfing for the sake of nerfing even tho nothing is wrong Intelligence is OP
wripple WarRavens League of Infamy 122	Posted - 2014.02.10 09:48:00 - [125] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: The dark cloud wrote: Yeah right go and remove railguns so that he can stomp around 24/7 with his derpship. That's not at all what I said - and there are no plans to remove railguns altogether. But, I personally think their long range is what allows them to sit out of harm's way and dish out damage to Dropships. Just make it so that you cannot accumulate WarPoints if you're in the redline. If cowards don't want to risk their tank or thales in the burn zone then they don't deserve to get higher ISK payouts from a good score. This game is all about high risk / high reward situations, camping in your safe zone should not count as playing tactically, it's called "I don't want to tarnish my precious KDR"
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 192	Posted - 2014.02.10 10:09:00 - [126] - Quote wripple wrote: CCP Saberwing wrote: The dark cloud wrote: Yeah right go and remove railguns so that he can stomp around 24/7 with his derpship. That's not at all what I said - and there are no plans to remove railguns altogether. But, I personally think their long range is what allows them to sit out of harm's way and dish out damage to Dropships. Just make it so that you cannot accumulate WarPoints if you're in the redline. If cowards don't want to risk their tank or thales in the burn zone then they don't deserve to get higher ISK payouts from a good score. This game is all about high risk / high reward situations, camping in your safe zone should not count as playing tactically, it's called "I don't want to tarnish my precious KDR" Redlining will be so much fun. Not only do you lose all your gear and have no chance at escaping, you will ALSO not get any warpoints. What fun! What joy! The best protostomping experience ever! Now the stompers can get even harder because they can also remove the flow of warpoints to the opposing team.
Piraten Hovnoret Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 288	Posted - 2014.02.10 12:14:00 - [127] - Quote Just remove the redline. Or put a clock on it lets say 30sec to get out and 3-5 min to get back in. The damage and range is not the problem it's the redline mechanics that are flawed War never changes
Brush Master HavoK Core RISE of LEGION 1044	Posted - 2014.02.10 15:52:00 - [128] - Quote Good video judge. Thank you for taking the time to put it together. Being a pilot since early beta, it's certainly not been easy for Dropship pilots and each update has given it own set of pros and cons. Tanks hitting you while flying 400m above a point certainly feels off but so does me being able to sit and tank swarms. It's all a fine balance and I'd just like to see CCP stay more engaged. Thanks again Judge, I will certainly added it to a topic of discussion at the next 514th Wing meeting, which will occur when I see CCP is done with their big restructuring. Everyone is invited to attend, last meeting notes can be found here, http://goo.gl/b5je4M 514th Wing // Team Fairy DUST // Havok Core [email protected]
Squagga The State Protectorate 209	Posted - 2014.02.10 16:50:00 - [129] - Quote +1 million. There is nothing more cowardly than sitting in a tank in the redline. Before the AV buff my team used to make no return trips into the enemies redline to take their equipment away. Lately their allowed to just be cowards without any reprocussions. My first idea was to simply make it that you can't shoot in or out of the redline. This obviously won't work, due to redlined matches. Don'ty get me wrong, I'll admit to driving my LAV into the redline and killing five or seven enemy players until I self destruct. My next idea is that limited damage and range should be applied to both sides of the redline. On top of that the further you are into the redline the less damage and range, for both sides, could be applied to prevent redline tank and sniper fire and give the losing team, in the event of a redline match, the opportunity to get out and fight back. One thing a couple of people have said is that there should be mulptle, up to maybe even five, different spawn locations from the redline to be able to give the game much more versatity. I apologise if someone has said some or all of these things in this thread. Sometimes I don't have the patience to read through all the bs Reloading, the silent killer.
Zirzo Valcyn Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 84	Posted - 2014.02.10 17:22:00 - [130] - Quote if you hide in the redline for X amount of time you should become visable on the map as a red marker, why are redline players allowed stealth for? i've put many hours into dropships the last couple weeks. there's a couple maps have like a %70 success rate. i troll the first part of the match with a $44k gorgon if that doesn't get railed i call out the incubus. it's way less stressful flying a $44k fit compared to 500k. if your trying hard to always call ADS you will give yourself a lot of stress unless your super rich. and the only way you really get to get better at pilot is to fly under a lot of fire and learn to work the maps. after 14 months of flying i am still always learning something new or fine tuning a manuever. tho i'm in agreement with judge that something needs to be done about the redline. i don't think rails need to be nerfed until they become an enlarged flaylock, there has to be a rock to our scissor but it's the redline who is the culprit, the water buffalo in the proverbial room. a railtank that is in the fight can usually be managed compared to one that has the leisure of aiming from the redline if they totally were to nerf the rails then we would have to deal with something new they throw at us. 1.8 is not something i'm looking forward to because i finally consider my dropships to be halfway flyable and they always **** that up every time they update some jerk off decides to screw with the dropships and usually after something gets fixed the next chance they get they nerf it so they can fix it again later- all this back and forthing makes them look busy and hard at work. not all maps can the dropship be called depending on many factors. it's learning to recognize the signs of when it's safe and when it's hopeless for an ADS and you do this by testing the match with the MLT ship and you eventually learn the danger zones of a map. some maps like ashland tho are %90 hopeless u can ban the troll out of the forums but u can't ban the forums out of the troll.

Philipp Achtel Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 93	Posted - 2014.02.10 18:49:00 - [131] - Quote Fantastic video, Judge. Your suggestions seem to get right to the heart of the issue.
Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries Legacy Rising 711	Posted - 2014.02.10 18:49:00 - [132] - Quote This is a very good video that accurately displays the problem with redline tanks. I very much agree with the proposal to reduce the angle of elevation and range slightly. This would make it so they have to get out of the red line and really think about their fits. Its about time rail tanks got on our level. Let's bring skill to the skill less.
GManKilla 2898 DETHDEALERS Galactic Skyfleet Empire 1	Posted - 2014.02.10 19:22:00 - [133] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: The dark cloud wrote: Yeah right go and remove railguns so that he can stomp around 24/7 with his derpship. That's not at all what I said - and there are no plans to remove railguns altogether. But, I personally think their long range is what allows them to sit out of harm's way and dish out damage to Dropships. you belive that but im a exellent veteran pilot i wont you to get in a dropship with me show you the same skills that wow everyone then get hit but railguns and bet youll get the same reaction on how unreal the damage and how much it drops the ability leaving it open for more aka you get hit your done never mind unable to hide so its tank money for a flying dropsuit and your worryed over them nerf ing range and or damage on them
Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries Legacy Rising 711	Posted - 2014.02.10 19:26:00 - [134] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: No rails = DS heaven Yeah it would be pretty nice to not be one shotted every game. Though judge isn't saying that here, and most dropship pilots don't want to be op. Although all dropship pilots don't want their extremely expensive ships blown up before we can activate a module. What judge was proposing was a change of stats to make the rail and dropship balance more fair. Currently its DS hell, because we can't fight them. Reducing the elevation and range means they have to come out of the redline, be smarter about fitting their tanks, and fit a turret and have a gunner to fight a dropship threat. I need a gunner to kill a tank before he runs back to the red, why shouldn't the tank need a gunner to fight off a dropship? That creates a tactical situation that's Dependant on multiple factors and creates interesting battles rather than the usual. "Oh look a rail tank, well can't fly anymore cause if I try and do anything I'll just get shot down. Better go recall and get killed by his 3 other tank buddies on the ground." Furthermore, this would give me a new tactical option, dropping av troops on the tank, something I can't do in the redline. Rail tanks should be a hard counter to dropships, but it should be fair and give dropship pilots a chance to fight back against such a threat. Is that really so much to ask?
GManKilla 2898 DETHDEALERS Galactic Skyfleet Empire 1	Posted - 2014.02.10 19:31:00 - [135] - Quote tween tween wrote: I'm a tanker myself and Yes can problems might exist, but look it from the tanks point of view or in this case, mine. I pull out a rail gun to take out turrets or enemy tanks. One of few times I sit at the redline with a rail, is when my team gets redlined completely. Even then, I have a hard time taking out dropship piloted by Ars Kayc, Foxhound Elite and Evolution-7, just to name a few. Another reason FOR me going on the redline with a rail gun is that it is impossible for me to fight enemy tanks as they get cover by one drop ship, which makes it impossible, at least for me to fight head on with blaster vs blaster tank. Here the creator of this video could be a good example, as I when encountering him, never seen him play alone, but always with a squad. Nothing wrong with that, don't get me wrong, but when they steamroll my blueberry team with infantry, tanks and him in a dropship, it makes it impossible to go as infantry or tank. Of my encounters in matches like This, I've only shot Judge down two or three times. Judge is a good dropship pilot, but he rarely plays alone, as it seems like he does in these videos. Last remark, good blaster tanks get good scores like good dropship pilot gets good scores, but put a good blaster tanker out on the battlefield against a good DS pilot and you'd prolly see the tanker get destroyed, if he fails to find reasonable cover the fact tanks armor naturally repairs stops eny piolt iv seen from doing eny damage inculding me i can take down 3 vs 1 assualt dropship but cant even poke a tank yea real fair now and getting worse as we go
Logi Stician The Vanguardians INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 206	Posted - 2014.02.10 19:40:00 - [136] - Quote Bump. "...and I'm the seventh out of seven sons, my pappy was a pistol, I'm a son of a gun. "
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2809	Posted - 2014.02.10 20:29:00 - [137] - Quote I'm all for eliminating the redline altogether because it introduces huge drawbacks while offering dubious benefits. It reduces or eliminates risk for snipers of all stripes which is counter to the philosophy of the game, and gives little in return. If a team is redlined simply allow a vote for a retreat and end the match early. If enough players are sitting in the MCC throw up the vote. At minimum redesign the maps. The closed beta Manus Peak map was ideal. There was a large hill with a flat top crossed by the redline. Neither side could fire over the hill from their side of the redline. Everyone had to come out to engage the enemy and expose themselves to danger.
Sir Snugglz Red Star. EoN. 364	Posted - 2014.02.10 22:02:00 - [138] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Sir Snugglz wrote: but but... no nerf/buffs to anything... Just increase the battlefield like 200-400m and push the redline similarly. it works Snugglz is spot on Zoom out of the map and you see the true size of the district, 5km by 5km you really thing a railgun will cover that lot? Thats the problem here nerfing for the sake of nerfing even tho nothing is wrong Exactly. I believe the rail is perfect the way it is. I believe that derpship are good for now. Lol. The problem is the redline setup. Too many high points in the redline. Push it back... Not only will it help with tanks hiding on top of mountains but it will force people to use transportation. Lavs and none assault derpship will have a role to play. Luck is just one of my skills
Atikali Havendoorr Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 55	Posted - 2014.02.10 22:51:00 - [139] - Quote After reading through the whole thread it seems the most obvious solution is to extend the redline, effectively making the maps bigger. But this would perhaps require more players on the map to fill up the extra space. But the game clearly doesn't handle anything bigger. Until the game actually becomes so large it was intended to be, I see the balance fix should be something about the railgun. It doesn't have to be much. A slight, just slight, decrease to RoF, range or elevation. And why not? Dropships aren't that effective all alone. They transport people and let other shoot too. Why not make tanks a little more like that? Actually, the railgun is good as it is if the maps actually where big. But they aren't, thus invaliding the element of hiding at very long ranges. Making some kind of "orange" zone, like some people have proposed, will significantly change the gameplay, turn the borders into a no mans land, and might introduce a whole new range of problems hard to foresee.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1470	Posted - 2014.02.11 00:18:00 - [140] - Quote Sir Snugglz wrote: Exactly. I believe the rail is perfect the way it is. I feel I should question this. Look at 45 degrees of elevation and 600m range outside of the redline. Even then it is not balanced. Take just one map, spine crescent, since its the one I used. And I only used it as I had to choose one. They ALL suffer from the same issues. Ashlands is a a far worse place, but i chose a middle ground map. The redline to redline distance, on average, is only 500 meters. How does a 600m range, high ROF no dispersion weapon fit into this? Think of range as if the maps we have are the only world. Our reality, in game, is only 600m wide. Outside of that we cannot exist. So 600m is not long range, it is in-fact the length of the world. A rail can shoot almost the length of my reality. This is not long range, it is unlimited range. As i show in the video they hit me twice in LESS then 2.5 seconds. Average human reaction time is 0.2 seconds. Having rail fire that fast is the same as just having it fire once for twice the damage since the recipient cannot react. In effect a rails tank has double the reported base damage. So we have a weapon that can shoot 2 shots faster then most can react to a single shot. That has a range greater than the range of my reality from a position that no player can reach. How is that "perfect" N.B. Totally respect you as a pilot and player but "perfect" is a word too far mate. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight

Sir Snugglz Red Star. EoN. 371	Posted - 2014.02.11 01:37:00 - [141] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Sir Snugglz wrote: Exactly. I believe the rail is perfect the way it is. I feel I should question this. Look at 45 degrees of elevation and 600m range outside of the redline. Even then it is not balanced. Take just one map, spine crescent, since its the one I used. And I only used it as I had to choose one. They ALL suffer from the same issues. Ashlands is a a far worse place, but i chose a middle ground map. The redline to redline distance, on average, is only 500 meters. How does a 600m range, high ROF no dispersion weapon fit into this? Think of range as if the maps we have are the only world. Our reality, in game, is only 600m wide. Outside of that we cannot exist. So 600m is not long range, it is in-fact the length of the world. A rail can shoot almost the length of my reality. This is not long range, it is unlimited range. As i show in the video they hit me twice in LESS then 2.5 seconds. Average human reaction time is 0.2 seconds. Having rail fire that fast is the same as just having it fire once for twice the damage since the recipient cannot react. In effect a rails tank has double the reported base damage. So we have a weapon that can shoot 2 shots faster then most can react to a single shot. That has a range greater than the range of my reality from a position that no player can reach. How is that "perfect" N.B. Totally respect you as a pilot and player but "perfect" is a word too far mate. See thats the issue now is it.... Looking at the "now" it obviously seems OP. But keep in mind what the fixes are for. Fixes are not to make things work with what you have. Its to move forward... and with the goal of moving forward, bigger maps, increased player count, 5kx5k map sizes, the rail tank as it is now, does fall under a balanced turret. So the question is what do we care about, fixing the "now" or preparing for the "future." I feel that by modifying the game for the "now" is slowing the Productivity of moving forward. So keeping in mind the "future" goal, I feel that the rail turret is balanced in terms of range, damage, charge up time, clip size, etc... But in the current state I am in full agreement. I hope this makes sense. -Luck is just one of my skills Just because I make flying look easy doesn't mean it is
ALT2 acc The Phoenix Federation 85	Posted - 2014.02.11 01:45:00 - [142] - Quote Sir Snugglz wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Sir Snugglz wrote: Exactly. I believe the rail is perfect the way it is. I feel I should question this. Look at 45 degrees of elevation and 600m range outside of the redline. Even then it is not balanced. Take just one map, spine crescent, since its the one I used. And I only used it as I had to choose one. They ALL suffer from the same issues. Ashlands is a a far worse place, but i chose a middle ground map. The redline to redline distance, on average, is only 500 meters. How does a 600m range, high ROF no dispersion weapon fit into this? Think of range as if the maps we have are the only world. Our reality, in game, is only 600m wide. Outside of that we cannot exist. So 600m is not long range, it is in-fact the length of the world. A rail can shoot almost the length of my reality. This is not long range, it is unlimited range. As i show in the video they hit me twice in LESS then 2.5 seconds. Average human reaction time is 0.2 seconds. Having rail fire that fast is the same as just having it fire once for twice the damage since the recipient cannot react. In effect a rails tank has double the reported base damage. So we have a weapon that can shoot 2 shots faster then most can react to a single shot. That has a range greater than the range of my reality from a position that no player can reach. How is that "perfect" N.B. Totally respect you as a pilot and player but "perfect" is a word too far mate. See thats the issue now is it.... Looking at the "now" it obviously seems OP. But keep in mind what the fixes are for. Fixes are not to make things work with what you have. Its to move forward... and with the goal of moving forward, bigger maps, increased player count, 5kx5k map sizes, the rail tank as it is now, does fall under a balanced turret. So the question is what do we care about, fixing the "now" or preparing for the "future." I feel that by modifying the game for the "now" is slowing the Productivity of moving forward. So keeping in mind the "future" goal, I feel that the rail turret is balanced in terms of range, damage, charge up time, clip size, etc... But in the current state I am in full agreement. I hope this makes sense. Or just put a 400m range limit until we get better maps No more gay ass peice of **** rails
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 293	Posted - 2014.02.11 02:15:00 - [143] - Quote First, let me start with the disclaimer, I hate dropships and dropship pilots, mainly because they are a continuous and nebulous threat just waiting to rush in and ruin my gunfight and they usually think they deserve to be unassailable. I'll look at the lineup before a pubmatch and offer my squad bounties on known dropship pilots. "First one of you to kill X (Judge) in his DS gets a million isk!"__ I usually go on to say I don't care how, rail installations are best, but ramming the DS with another DS is encouraged. Swarms only work in combination with numerous other AVers and they should be buffed, they need to be fast enough to hit dropships that hit afterburners and outrun every other volley. An AA swarm is needed. Anyway, the idea of limiting rail elevation and range is unreasonable. You will always be able to use terrain contours to elevate a shot above the normal range of motion, so any additional limits would be pointless. As for limiting range, it would neutralize the role of AV sniper. I realize you don't like being sniped, but you should be thankful you have enough EHP to avoid being one-shotted. You're already basically immune to infantry AV, but that's not enough for you (typical DS pilot entitlement). I would grant you a higher flight ceiling, or cheaper dropships, but not immunity from snipers. As for redlines, they are only an issues with Skirmish 2.0 and Domination (lame game modes). I hope they fix the redline problem by reverting back to Skirmish 1.0 (a knockoff of BF rush). Attacking in circles (from A to B to C and back to A) feels a bit circular, and rolling objectives on longer narrow maps would make the busdriver role less lame. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1473	Posted - 2014.02.11 02:35:00 - [144] - Quote That's an interesting reply Luk Manag. I have to sleep; it's 2 in the morning for me atm. I shall dwell on the letters you put next to each other to form words, and respond after some rest. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Nguruthos IX Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 2454	Posted - 2014.02.11 02:36:00 - [145] - Quote This game may never see larger maps lol
BAD FURRY SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 462	Posted - 2014.02.11 03:06:00 - [146] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Hey guys We've had a discussion with the CPM before and are aware of issues around Red Line Railguns - honestly we're not happy with them and it's something we want to address. I personally spoke with Judge last night about this and we threw around some suggestions. As far as I'm aware, it's unfortunately not a simple fix because of the way that the projectiles are handled (and they're not a server-side change). I'll be forwarding this video on to Wolfman/Remnant though and seeing what we can do. :) Thanks for pulling it together - this sort of feedback is great. i have kill lots of redline rail tanks in TD tanks A LOT not in my redline but rite next to theres and from all over the map CCP i personally believe your being miss lead by players who dont know how to counter redline rail tanks its not hard uses the map uses the hills and buildings as cover ALL redline rail tanks need to move out of cover to shoot when they leave you shoot them with a TD with all dmg mods on and boom! 2-3 hits no more red line rail tank the only players that cry of red line tanks and snipers are players WHO ARE IN THE OPEN ! this is a battlefield if your a drop ship MOVE ! dont stay in one spot use cover by flying low using hills as cover are better then flying up into the air and hovering like Judge likes to do ALOT ! same with snipers in the red line if your wining good stay out of the open and the red line snipers will not hit you ! and like i said same with the tanks . i just cant be leave something SOoo EZ like staying behind cover and keep moving is so hard for all of you! i just glad most of you never will end up in a combat zone because the way most of you cry about stuff ez to avoid like a fixed sniper or a tank on top of a hill in the open 90% of you would be dead be for you can finish reading this ! and yes i watched the vid nice hill tank to bad he need to be on the MCC road to do anything ! and getting shot down good job on thinking you where safe ! Yes i am a Undead Hell Wolf ... nice to meat you!
Beld Errmon 0uter.Heaven 1305	Posted - 2014.02.11 03:30:00 - [147] - Quote BAD FURRY wrote: CCP Saberwing wrote: Hey guys We've had a discussion with the CPM before and are aware of issues around Red Line Railguns - honestly we're not happy with them and it's something we want to address. I personally spoke with Judge last night about this and we threw around some suggestions. As far as I'm aware, it's unfortunately not a simple fix because of the way that the projectiles are handled (and they're not a server-side change). I'll be forwarding this video on to Wolfman/Remnant though and seeing what we can do. :) Thanks for pulling it together - this sort of feedback is great. i have kill lots of redline rail tanks in TD tanks A LOT not in my redline but rite next to theres and from all over the map CCP i personally believe your being miss lead by players who dont know how to counter redline rail tanks its not hard uses the map uses the hills and buildings as cover ALL redline rail tanks need to move out of cover to shoot when they leave you shoot them with a TD with all dmg mods on and boom! 2-3 hits no more red line rail tank the only players that cry of red line tanks and snipers are players WHO ARE IN THE OPEN ! this is a battlefield if your a drop ship MOVE ! dont stay in one spot use cover by flying low using hills as cover are better then flying up into the air and hovering like Judge likes to do ALOT ! same with snipers in the red line if your wining good stay out of the open and the red line snipers will not hit you ! and like i said same with the tanks . i just cant be leave something SOoo EZ like staying behind cover and keep moving is so hard for all of you! i just glad most of you never will end up in a combat zone because the way most of you cry about stuff ez to avoid like a fixed sniper or a tank on top of a hill in the open 90% of you would be dead be for you can finish reading this ! and yes i watched the vid nice hill tank to bad he need to be on the MCC road to do anything ! and getting shot down good job on thinking you where safe ! A long term rail tanker telling dropship pilots how easy it is not to get killed..... do you even know how to call a dropship?
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 293	Posted - 2014.02.11 12:50:00 - [148] - Quote Nguruthos IX wrote: This game may never see larger maps lol You're one of those pilots I put a bounty on before you even call your DS! But yes, larger maps will make the DS role more important, both attackers and defenders will need fast transport from one set if control points to the next (after they have been neutralized). There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2483	Posted - 2014.02.11 13:08:00 - [149] - Quote Beld Errmon wrote: BAD FURRY wrote: CCP Saberwing wrote: Hey guys We've had a discussion with the CPM before and are aware of issues around Red Line Railguns - honestly we're not happy with them and it's something we want to address. I personally spoke with Judge last night about this and we threw around some suggestions. As far as I'm aware, it's unfortunately not a simple fix because of the way that the projectiles are handled (and they're not a server-side change). I'll be forwarding this video on to Wolfman/Remnant though and seeing what we can do. :) Thanks for pulling it together - this sort of feedback is great. i have kill lots of redline rail tanks in TD tanks A LOT not in my redline but rite next to theres and from all over the map CCP i personally believe your being miss lead by players who dont know how to counter redline rail tanks its not hard uses the map uses the hills and buildings as cover ALL redline rail tanks need to move out of cover to shoot when they leave you shoot them with a TD with all dmg mods on and boom! 2-3 hits no more red line rail tank the only players that cry of red line tanks and snipers are players WHO ARE IN THE OPEN ! this is a battlefield if your a drop ship MOVE ! dont stay in one spot use cover by flying low using hills as cover are better then flying up into the air and hovering like Judge likes to do ALOT ! same with snipers in the red line if your wining good stay out of the open and the red line snipers will not hit you ! and like i said same with the tanks . i just cant be leave something SOoo EZ like staying behind cover and keep moving is so hard for all of you! i just glad most of you never will end up in a combat zone because the way most of you cry about stuff ez to avoid like a fixed sniper or a tank on top of a hill in the open 90% of you would be dead be for you can finish reading this ! and yes i watched the vid nice hill tank to bad he need to be on the MCC road to do anything ! and getting shot down good job on thinking you where safe ! A long term rail tanker telling dropship pilots how easy it is not to get killed..... do you even know how to call a dropship? I rail tank and tbh its **** easy to avoid rail tanks on all the maps in a dropship Intelligence is OP
DELB0Y The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 0	Posted - 2014.02.11 13:34:00 - [150] - Quote Hey Judge, thought I'd post for the 1st time in the forums to give that new video of yours some love. I completely agree with your redline views. We have been playing together for quite some time now and have been at the end of a redline rail tanks far too many times and I know (as a tanker) how broken it is but as much as I suffer from it I know that as you're in the air you suffer from it far more and I share your woe. I was waiting for someone to point this out in a video for a while now and I appreciate the effort you put into that vid. Even though it was clearly written from a dropship pilots perspective I was happy that in your vid you also highlighted the fact that it effects other members of the team be they infantry or tanks as well . This care and attention to the balance of Dusts game mechanics for all players and not just for yourself is why Im proud to fly with you dude. Lets hope CCP get there act together soon so all players can bring their skillpoints to bare ON the battlefield. Thanks again for your video and also for watching the skies for me in-game.

BAD FURRY SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 463	Posted - 2014.02.11 13:51:00 - [151] - Quote Beld Errmon wrote: BAD FURRY wrote: CCP Saberwing wrote: Hey guys We've had a discussion with the CPM before and are aware of issues around Red Line Railguns - honestly we're not happy with them and it's something we want to address. I personally spoke with Judge last night about this and we threw around some suggestions. As far as I'm aware, it's unfortunately not a simple fix because of the way that the projectiles are handled (and they're not a server-side change). I'll be forwarding this video on to Wolfman/Remnant though and seeing what we can do. :) Thanks for pulling it together - this sort of feedback is great. i have kill lots of redline rail tanks in TD tanks A LOT not in my redline but rite next to theres and from all over the map CCP i personally believe your being miss lead by players who dont know how to counter redline rail tanks its not hard uses the map uses the hills and buildings as cover ALL redline rail tanks need to move out of cover to shoot when they leave you shoot them with a TD with all dmg mods on and boom! 2-3 hits no more red line rail tank the only players that cry of red line tanks and snipers are players WHO ARE IN THE OPEN ! this is a battlefield if your a drop ship MOVE ! dont stay in one spot use cover by flying low using hills as cover are better then flying up into the air and hovering like Judge likes to do ALOT ! same with snipers in the red line if your wining good stay out of the open and the red line snipers will not hit you ! and like i said same with the tanks . i just cant be leave something SOoo EZ like staying behind cover and keep moving is so hard for all of you! i just glad most of you never will end up in a combat zone because the way most of you cry about stuff ez to avoid like a fixed sniper or a tank on top of a hill in the open 90% of you would be dead be for you can finish reading this ! and yes i watched the vid nice hill tank to bad he need to be on the MCC road to do anything ! and getting shot down good job on thinking you where safe ! A long term rail tanker telling dropship pilots how easy it is not to get killed..... do you even know how to call a dropship? Yes i do i have 3 alts that i uses for them support and attack and yes ver all flyinh low and fast works better then flying hi up and in the open vsing red line tanks Yes i am a Undead Hell Wolf ... nice to meat you!
jamstar saa187 The Third Day Galactic Skyfleet Empire 74	Posted - 2014.02.11 14:49:00 - [152] - Quote Good video Judge, very well put together, and very hard to argue against, imho. though i expected some push-back by the soon to be impinged few, i must say im still surprised that there can be any reasonable argument given to the video that Judge put together, however slanted to the DS pilots it may be. the core issue i picked up was: "how is it fair that ANYONE can affect in such a major way the direction of battle, which can lead to major rewards, without themselves facing the risks that are inherent in said battle?" is it fair? be it Rail tank, Sniper, Forge gunner, whatever, why should you benefit from the spoils of battle when you so clearly are unwilling to take any risks? i understand the reason for the red line, as there are enough pub-stompers out there to warrant a 'safe zone', but being able to affect the outcome of a match, while not even having to move much further than your MCC can not be good. ill leave the range issue to those that are more knowledgeable and actually have a vested interest in Vehicles, as i only use the LAV, and that's for it's mobility.
Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries Legacy Rising 716	Posted - 2014.02.11 18:52:00 - [153] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: First, let me start with the disclaimer, I hate dropships and dropship pilots, mainly because they are a continuous and nebulous threat just waiting to rush in and ruin my gunfight and they usually think they deserve to be unassailable. Generalizing is good and all, and yes there are dropship pilots who want to be invincible. Judge is not one of those pilots, nor am I and what he is proposing is not making the dropship unassailable. Luk Manag wrote: Swarms only work in combination with numerous other AVers and they should be buffed, they need to be fast enough to hit dropships that hit afterburners and outrun every other volley. An AA swarm is needed. While I agree the swarms should be buffed let's not make them too powerful. I could see two prototype swarms being able to kill a proto fit dropship but it should take more than one. Otherwise pilots have wasted massive amounts of sp and isk. Luk Manag wrote: Anyway, the idea of limiting rail elevation and range is unreasonable. You will always be able to use terrain contours to elevate a shot above the normal range of motion, so any additional limits would be pointless. As for limiting range, it would neutralize the role of AV sniper. Limiting the elevation Is not unreasonable, as you said you will always be able to use terrain contours to elevate a shot. Limiting the elevation slightly would make a difference in the balance. The range that judge sampled in his video wouldn't diminish the sniper role of the rail tank. 450m is well outside the range of other tanks and av. The rail wouldn't be able to sit 115m back in the red and snipe, it would have to be somewhere on the battlefield. It can still snipe from across the map, just not from the safe zone. If you think that's unfair I have nothing more to say to you. Luk Manag wrote: I realize you don't like being sniped, but you should be thankful you have enough EHP to avoid being one-shotted. gallente ships don't get one shotted, however caldari ships do. If the tank has a partical accelerator then it can one shot my dropship. 707k gone and I can't even do anything about it, even if I did see him in the red line, I'll just get killed getting into a position to fight him by the redline. I don't like a sniper that can't be fought, and the only place to hide is in a useless position on the map that any forge or swarm can knock you out of. Luk Manag wrote: You're already basically immune to infantry AV, but that's not enough for you (typical DS pilot entitlement). I would grant you a higher flight ceiling, or cheaper dropships, but not immunity from snipers. dropships are not by any means immune to infantry av, a wiki breach forge gun can one shot a python, any forge gun paired with an adv swarm launcher can kill or at minimum deny an area to a dropship. I think the forge gun dropship balance is pretty good, maybe give the forge gun a little less charge time. The only one I disagree with is the wiki breach. I don't care much for one shot kills on my very expensive dropship, because there is no tactics or strategy, much like with rails, point and click. What would a higher flight ceiling do? Do you know anything about dropships? As judge said in the video multiple times the dropships typical operating height is 80-100m or lower. Anything above that is useless, oh but we can fly around up there and not get hit by rails but be absolutely useless? Yeah that's why I specd into dropships. If things stay the way they are then there has to be a price reduction for dropships. A gunlogi frame only costs 97k. The proto turret that can one shot a caldari dropship is only 257k. My python runs me 707k. So yes they will have to be as cheap as tanks, otherwise every dropship pilot will go broke and start running tanks to pay the bills. I'm sure as an infantry player you would love that. Most ace pilots don't want to be immune from sniper tanks either, we want the engagements to be more than a rail tank gets called down in the red. We just want a chance to fight back like any other merc on the field. Or at least have a chance to hide or use our mobility to run. That's not entitlement, that's asking for fair gameplay. Oh and my disclaimer, I hate players who think the counter to dropships should be an easy OHK and hardly know anything about flying dropships.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1478	Posted - 2014.02.11 19:45:00 - [154] - Quote jamstar saa187 wrote: Good video Judge, very well put together, and very hard to argue against, imho. though i expected some push-back by the soon to be impinged few. Thanks for the compliments. And I agree about the Push bcak. So far is this thread we have had a few counter positions, but they seem very short of supporting evidence or reason. We need to drop the emotion from this. Show me redline rails are fair as they are and i weill change my mind. Tell me that they are fine and leave it there and I will not. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
lee corwood Knights Of Ender Galactic Skyfleet Empire 466	Posted - 2014.02.11 19:59:00 - [155] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: I have been waiting for this video from Judge, and it was worth the wait. Spot on (as always) Judge! :-) You get a like from me (wish I could give more) PS: Hey CCP Saberwing, nice to have you back! Heard you had a nice time in Korea :-) Thanks! Nice to be back. Korea was awesome, thanks. :) I had a blast and love it there! I'm hoping to go back for a long weekend some point soon. You mean it was awesome in every way except their food is incredibly expensive there ;P. Even still, I'd go back in a heartbeat if I could. Welcome back, Saberwing o7 Minmatar Logisis \| Heavy lover. Come get some badass Band-Aids from this chick
Griffter D'nan Seraphim Auxiliaries 6	Posted - 2014.02.11 21:43:00 - [156] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus have few good points, but. there is few important that he is missing. First thing - archetypal role of dropships. I think that CCP made a mistake listen to ppl. Assault dropships are bad thing, and they should remove them. They out of balance and this have huge advantage. I know few very good pilots and I see what they can do. They are no poor souls trying to survive, on contrary they big sharks in small aquarium. It take huge effort to take them down, not alone but by whole team. So JR's analysis should account that. Should, but there is not. ASD with 2 gunners, and pilot have crazy firepower! And JR want to make their life easier they already have 20/0 with no effort. Also dropship should do things fast, landing on a building top, exiting ship, droping uplink, entering dropship and then going somewhere isn't that taks its not a taxi. That's why I don't think that whole talking about safe place for dropships is wrong. Dropship shouldn't be some kind of parade baloon. It have task, it do it, then it retreat. Second thing - driving tanks Good tanker know how to use terrain to increase elevation, so whole analysis is pointless, so much effort for nothing. But ther is another thing. Maps in Dust are crazy uneven. Yes, you can restrict elevation, but it make railtank more static weapon, because there is lots of roads, and small hills that make them useless against something on a top. But there is no problem when you camping. Third thing -shooting JR, keep forgetting, that rail have huge, huge delay. When DS make lots of altitude changes, and move fast it is almost impossible to hit. And yes, I currently tank driver So dont fly straight, dont sit in one place and spam infantry guys with turret, oh, but this is source of the problem. Steady balloons shooting at infantry/veh ;) btw it there is something that CCP should do is looking at adv/pro rail turrets, they bit to strong, and don't give WP for kills from redline, because with that we also solve problem with redline thales. ie root of the problem ;) So JS at the end was right, but whole argumentation before that was flaved.
Midas Fool Black Phoenix Mercenaries Legacy Rising 359	Posted - 2014.02.11 23:07:00 - [157] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: First, let me start with the disclaimer, I hate dropships and dropship pilots, mainly because they are a continuous and nebulous threat just waiting to rush in and ruin my gunfight and they usually think they deserve to be unassailable. I'll look at the lineup before a pubmatch and offer my squad bounties on known dropship pilots. "First one of you to kill X (Judge) in his DS gets a million isk!"__ I usually go on to say I don't care how, rail installations are best, but ramming the DS with another DS is encouraged. Swarms only work in combination with numerous other AVers and they should be buffed, they need to be fast enough to hit dropships that hit afterburners and outrun every other volley. An AA swarm is needed. Anyway, the idea of limiting rail elevation and range is unreasonable. You will always be able to use terrain contours to elevate a shot above the normal range of motion, so any additional limits would be pointless. As for limiting range, it would neutralize the role of AV sniper. I realize you don't like being sniped, but you should be thankful you have enough EHP to avoid being one-shotted. You're already basically immune to infantry AV, but that's not enough for you (typical DS pilot entitlement). I would grant you a higher flight ceiling, or cheaper dropships, but not immunity from snipers. As for redlines, they are only an issues with Skirmish 2.0 and Domination (lame game modes). I hope they fix the redline problem by reverting back to Skirmish 1.0 (a knockoff of BF rush). Attacking in circles (from A to B to C and back to A) feels a bit circular, and rolling objectives on longer narrow maps would make the busdriver role less lame. Instead of writing this you could have just said: Hi, my name is Luk Manag. I do not understand dropships and I do not know what to do when encountered by one. I would prefer it if dropships did not exist, because I am not willing nor able to incorporate dropships into my game strategy. +25 Kill Assist...+25 Kill Assist...+25 Kill Assist...NO HOW WHY
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 295	Posted - 2014.02.12 03:11:00 - [158] - Quote Midas Fool wrote: Luk Manag wrote: First, let me start with the disclaimer, I hate dropships and dropship pilots, mainly because they are a continuous and nebulous threat just waiting to rush in and ruin my gunfight and they usually think they deserve to be unassailable. I'll look at the lineup before a pubmatch and offer my squad bounties on known dropship pilots. "First one of you to kill X (Judge) in his DS gets a million isk!"__ I usually go on to say I don't care how, rail installations are best, but ramming the DS with another DS is encouraged. Swarms only work in combination with numerous other AVers and they should be buffed, they need to be fast enough to hit dropships that hit afterburners and outrun every other volley. An AA swarm is needed. Anyway, the idea of limiting rail elevation and range is unreasonable. You will always be able to use terrain contours to elevate a shot above the normal range of motion, so any additional limits would be pointless. As for limiting range, it would neutralize the role of AV sniper. I realize you don't like being sniped, but you should be thankful you have enough EHP to avoid being one-shotted. You're already basically immune to infantry AV, but that's not enough for you (typical DS pilot entitlement). I would grant you a higher flight ceiling, or cheaper dropships, but not immunity from snipers. As for redlines, they are only an issues with Skirmish 2.0 and Domination (lame game modes). I hope they fix the redline problem by reverting back to Skirmish 1.0 (a knockoff of BF rush). Attacking in circles (from A to B to C and back to A) feels a bit circular, and rolling objectives on longer narrow maps would make the busdriver role less lame. Instead of writing this you could have just said: Hi, my name is Luk Manag. I do not understand dropships and I do not know what to do when encountered by one. I would prefer it if dropships did not exist, because I am not willing nor able to incorporate dropships into my game strategy. It's not exactly like that. I just want to bankrupt them. I recently skilled up my Forge gun to help end the aerial menace. If you'll listen to any other justifications, I put a lot of SP and attention into the AV role. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
Vell0cet SVER True Blood 924	Posted - 2014.02.12 04:11:00 - [159] - Quote Judge: I asked this a few pages back. Are there changes to the aerial redline mechanics that could be made that would allow DS pilots the ability to take down glass cannon redline rails and get out without allowing them to spawn camp? What if the aerial redline timer functioned like stamina/cloaks. This would potentially allow enough time to enter the redline kill the tank and exit, but would have to wait a significant period of cooldown time as it slowly recharges? I'm thinking this would make spawn camping more difficult, but still allow for penetrating the enemy redline long enough to kill rail tankers and snipers. Seems like a more elegant solution than nerfing turret elevation. Speaking of turret elevation, it would be interesting to see the radius overlayed on the center of the map of the "cone of safety" above a tank at 100m and 200m for both the existing 45 degree turret elevation and then the same circles with your proposed changes. I suspect this would make most of the middle of the map safe for dropships at 200m if the rail tanker is in the middle of the map (presumably where people want them to play). In a way your proposal would actually encourage rail tanks to remain on the periphery of the battlefield. I think the better solution is to change redline mechanics for aerial vehicles such that DSs would be reasonable counters to redliners without being able to spawn camp effectively. Caveat: I'm neither a pilot or tanker, I just want fun balanced fights. Much respect, and thanks for your hard work and intelligent efforts. Best PvE idea ever!
Nguruthos IX Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 2455	Posted - 2014.02.12 04:24:00 - [160] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Judge: I asked this a few pages back. Are there changes to the aerial redline mechanics that could be made that would allow DS pilots the ability to take down glass cannon redline rails and get out without allowing them to spawn camp? What if the aerial redline timer functioned like stamina/cloaks. This would potentially allow enough time to enter the redline kill the tank and exit, but would have to wait a significant period of cooldown time as it slowly recharges? I'm thinking this would make spawn camping more difficult, but still allow for penetrating the enemy redline long enough to kill rail tankers and snipers. Seems like a more elegant solution than nerfing turret elevation. Speaking of turret elevation, it would be interesting to see the radius overlayed on the center of the map of the "cone of safety" above a tank at 100m and 200m for both the existing 45 degree turret elevation and then the same circles with your proposed changes. I suspect this would make most of the middle of the map safe for dropships at 200m if the rail tanker is in the middle of the map (presumably where people want them to play). In a way your proposal would actually encourage rail tanks to remain on the periphery of the battlefield. I think the better solution is to change redline mechanics for aerial vehicles such that DSs would be reasonable counters to redliners without being able to spawn camp effectively. Caveat: I'm neither a pilot or tanker, I just want fun balanced fights. Much respect, and thanks for your hard work and intelligent efforts. Or, get this... remove the redline. Find another way to not get camped, it's not hard. CCP lacks creativity and incentive.

Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2818	Posted - 2014.02.12 04:45:00 - [161] - Quote Welcome to New Eden, where we coddle you and take care of your every need. Feeling skittish? No problem, we'll give you a safe zone to shoot from where nobody can get to you! That's quite a reputation you have there...
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1485	Posted - 2014.02.12 09:09:00 - [162] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Judge: I asked this a few pages back. Are there changes to the aerial redline mechanics that could be made that would allow DS pilots the ability to take down glass cannon redline rails and get out without allowing them to spawn camp? This seems a little like reversing the issue. I think allowing a player to attack the redline could upset balance too. That said you could reset the redline time by 4 seconds every time you do damage to a tank. BUT the start of a match will be perhaps dropships rushing into the redline to attack any vehicle coming in. It coul;d also lead the dropships stopping the vehicles a redlined team calls in to help them break the redline. I don't think we could get a workable solution this way. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 198	Posted - 2014.02.12 09:55:00 - [163] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: First, let me start with the disclaimer, I hate dropships and dropship pilots, mainly because they are a continuous and nebulous threat just waiting to rush in and ruin my gunfight and they usually think they deserve to be unassailable. I'll look at the lineup before a pubmatch and offer my squad bounties on known dropship pilots. "First one of you to kill X (Judge) in his DS gets a million isk!"__ I usually go on to say I don't care how, rail installations are best, but ramming the DS with another DS is encouraged. Swarms only work in combination with numerous other AVers and they should be buffed, they need to be fast enough to hit dropships that hit afterburners and outrun every other volley. An AA swarm is needed. Anyway, the idea of limiting rail elevation and range is unreasonable. You will always be able to use terrain contours to elevate a shot above the normal range of motion, so any additional limits would be pointless. As for limiting range, it would neutralize the role of AV sniper. I realize you don't like being sniped, but you should be thankful you have enough EHP to avoid being one-shotted. You're already basically immune to infantry AV, but that's not enough for you (typical DS pilot entitlement). I would grant you a higher flight ceiling, or cheaper dropships, but not immunity from snipers. As for redlines, they are only an issues with Skirmish 2.0 and Domination (lame game modes). I hope they fix the redline problem by reverting back to Skirmish 1.0 (a knockoff of BF rush). Attacking in circles (from A to B to C and back to A) feels a bit circular, and rolling objectives on longer narrow maps would make the busdriver role less lame. Now THIS is merc combat. The game should encourage more of that behaviour. A dude with a vendetta against dropships and the money to actually act on it. It's glorious. Please continue like this. Maybe I should do the same thing with Thales snipers. Man, I love countersniping those idiots.
Midas Fool Black Phoenix Mercenaries Legacy Rising 362	Posted - 2014.02.12 22:38:00 - [164] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: snip snip, too many quotes How dare you, Numnutz? You know the rules. Get out of here with that logic. I'm really tired of this. So I need to share some information that is "controversial" that people won't admit is true. If you are easily offended, don't read this. If you are so closed-minded that you don't want to think today, then video game flying machines are the least your priorities. If you don't care for my exposition just skip it. Not being skilled enough to be a pilot myself (I try though), I have worked with several Dropship pilots, including Judge and of course Numnutz, and have been very entertained with their very unique perspective of the game. I watched Pvt Numnutz learn how to turn a flying boat that exploded when it felt like it into arguably one of the most powerful strategic assets in the game. Anyone who doubts or undermines their skill is a jealous liar. Anyone who questions their utility is simply inexperienced (and letting everyone know). Anyone who believes that the concerns of Dropship pilots aren't justified, or worse, small-minded enough to believe that they are the same or even in the same league as those of tank pilots are simply not qualified to have an opinion on the matter. Sorry, don't mean to be so blunt , but the matter of fact is that you aren't actually entitled to your own opinion on every subject. The only place where you are a special snowflake is on the internet where you can say things without real consequence or any actual validation. At the end of the day if you don't have anything tangible, in particular hours of experience, to back up what you have to say then your opinion is simply not relevant. This is the root problem with the state of world leadership at the moment. Different stances are presented side-by-side as though they are equally valid stances to have. Turns out, some people are actually just plain wrong. Who knew, right? Luk Manag, your vendetta against dropships is not wrong to have nor unfounded. However, it does not qualify you to disagree with well-respected and experienced players who specifically analyze every permutation of their subject and construct informed, presentable articulation. In fact your attitude toward pilots shows that you are very myopic and like I said in previous response, you just don't want to adapt. In case you really don't understand what I am trying to say here: you are absolutely the coolest person ever and I absolutely respect you for deciding that your definitive goal is to be the enemy of all Dropships...however...your examples of your experience with AV demonstrate that your actual knowledge of Dropships and how they fit in the balance of the game as a whole is limited to your poor attempts to engage them. Your willingness to admit how you do things doesn't prove what you think it does. This little thesis of mine isn't necessarily only directed at at only you, Luk. This is also a response to the other posters in this thread that need to be reminded every so often that their personal experiences are not indicative of the whole picture. It is not in any way unreasonable to expect at least some experience at the level some of these Pilots play at to criticize their methods. In general most of this is information is common knowledge that functional people already know but don't want to deal with. Honestly I can't tell anyone how to behave or what they should do, but most people are NOT incapable of understanding how things actually work on a bigger scale, but simply unwilling. Before you start the butthurt engines, understand that It's perfectly fine to be wrong. It becomes a problem when you don't realize or want to admit it. The reason I'm so heated is that its really disappointing that after reasonable, experienced, well-supported, specific, and altogether correct analysis, you guys still go and run to defend your exploit machines. You would have reason to but instead of bringing the level of analysis Judge brings you offer "I can't deal with Dropships, so that's all they want". You would think that the final nail in the coffin would be DEVELOPER ACKNOWLEDGEMENT that something is WRONG. Seriously, please use your brains, they can do cool things. /rant. TL;DR: that's a shame. Back on topic, Judge, an intelligent, fair assessment as always. Please forgive me for derailing the thread to tell people that they can't act like they are toddlers and get away with it. I hope that once some AV options come in to deal with the current state of HAVs people will stop being so puerile about them. And honestly the thing that tips me off is that people are so unwilling to give Pilots the respect of at least acknowledging that you have reasonable opinions that vary greatly from their preconceptions. Actual input: Guess what? One Proto Forge (of really any variety) generally can shut down (if not kill, force a recall or flight ceiling) 1-2 dropships. A team of two or three well supplied, well positioned Forge guns can often reliably keep the fight at low altitude. This is a situation where team/squad coordination and pilot skill come in to play in preventing that situation to occur in the first place by communication and general smart play. The reason I can see that being balanced is that as a Forge Gunner I consistently am shut down by pilots who are a step ahead of me. A rail tank in his redline does not create this situation. He is able to be 100% risk free in his ability to remove the ability to use dropships at all. That is not fair, as most everything else has a certain level of required input for the level of output. For my ability to put out vehicle-destroying damage I pay the penalty of waddling around hoping that I don't take knives to the back on my way to try to shoot at you. The icing on the cake is that my AV Forge fits cost more ISK that some tanks. +25 Kill Assist...+25 Kill Assist...+25 Kill Assist...NO HOW WHY
Atikali Havendoorr Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 55	Posted - 2014.02.13 04:21:00 - [165] - Quote Midas Fool wrote: much text. how thoughtful. wow I nominate this to the Post of the week!
Midas Fool Black Phoenix Mercenaries Legacy Rising 364	Posted - 2014.02.13 08:18:00 - [166] - Quote Atikali Havendoorr wrote: Midas Fool wrote: much text. how thoughtful. wow I nominate this to the Post of the week! I somehow predicted someone would bring up Doge. Meh, It doesn't matter if anyone even read what I said, it doesn't change that Judge Rhadamanthus had a good video that deserved a bump, and that he deserves a little more respect for what he has to say. Someone who thinks that dropships are impossible to avoid or even remotely difficult to kill has no idea what they are talking about. Everyone knows that dropships are made of tin foil and construction paper. +25 Kill Assist...+25 Kill Assist...+25 Kill Assist...NO HOW WHY
Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries Legacy Rising 728	Posted - 2014.02.13 10:26:00 - [167] - Quote Atikali Havendoorr wrote: Midas Fool wrote: much text. how thoughtful. wow I nominate this to the Post of the week! Agreed. Current av weapons can still fight off dropships if the player knows what they are doing and know how dropships operate. I have seen midas fend off multiple assault dropships with his forge gun. I have great respect for forge gunners because they are at the same risk and need as much skill as a dropship pilot to do their jobs. I have very little respect for rail tanks that hide in the redline.
hold that Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 40	Posted - 2014.02.13 11:20:00 - [168] - Quote why not half the sp from redline? it would discourage a lot of **** while still protecting peeps from proto stomp redline problems
Beld Errmon 0uter.Heaven 1335	Posted - 2014.02.13 11:30:00 - [169] - Quote jesus midas, I fly dropships and even i couldn't be bothered writing something that long, let alone reading it...
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1487	Posted - 2014.02.13 12:18:00 - [170] - Quote hold that wrote: why not half the sp from redline? it would discourage a lot of **** while still protecting peeps from proto stomp redline problems Should I lose 500 000 ISK to someone how is in a safe spot even a single time? Plus it is still worth removing me from the battle for small or no rewards so you can come out of the redline when I am gone and earn more as you are much safer. At the same time you have removed my ability to earn sp and isk in an unfair way. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight

Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1487	Posted - 2014.02.13 12:33:00 - [171] - Quote Beld Errmon wrote: jesus midas, I fly dropships and even i couldn't be bothered writing something that long, let alone reading it... I read it. It was epic. Also just as a bit of trivia; the script I wrote for the video is 6000 words long. That's 10 pages printed out. And this is the edit. Those coloured bars are video segments. Each colour is a clip from a different video. Each video is recorded separately when I play the game. I used footage from 23 games. I have to record at least 60 games to get the 23 videos I needed and the right footage. I lost 32 million ISK in ships and tanks to get the footage of kills, maps and altitude etc for this single video. People shot me down while I hovered to get the 100m and 200m footage i used in the side by side segment. That segment cost 3 million Isk alone. The blue bars in the FX rows in that edit are the special effects like the pointy green hand and the side by side. They have to be key-framed and animated by frame keys, which takes about 10 minutes to get 5 seconds of footage completed. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Sam Tektzby Better Hide R Die 137	Posted - 2014.02.13 12:55:00 - [172] - Quote Iam back after holls and what i see here, no improve again :D I know its not along time ten days, but after this video im back in ol' muddy waters of dust again. I have solution, i think, just make a vehicles and arms nonoperable (sorry for rapping english) behind redline and on redline. And put back AV weapons back to glory time. Honestly most of "driver" players who QQ before against AV players using now rails basicaly in same way. Like powerhammers of doom from sky, how video told normal pilots or infanry sometimes dont even know where the tank is. Its quite sad, but i believe CCP will improve this situation (just no another nerf run please, just make it simple and give us proper balance, like buffing AV for example or make tank "squad based vehicle" - how its in real/driver, gunner etc). Support - Tactician/Support Deteis - Orator
CommanderBolt ACME SPECIAL FORCES Legacy Rising 631	Posted - 2014.02.13 13:39:00 - [173] - Quote I have to say that was well put together Judge. I would even go as far as to say you have convinced me somewhat about the elevation and to a lesser degree - the range issue of railguns. Either way you presented logic and a deep understanding of the game and its elements. You should be commended mate :)
jamstar saa187 The Third Day Galactic Skyfleet Empire 75	Posted - 2014.02.13 19:33:00 - [174] - Quote CommanderBolt wrote: I have to say that was well put together Judge. I would even go as far as to say you have convinced me somewhat about the elevation and to a lesser degree - the range issue of railguns. Either way you presented logic and a deep understanding of the game and its elements. You should be commended mate :) if anything i found the Range issue the most compelling. for the current build of this game, the ranges of the Rail Turret seems too much IMHO. that and i fundamentally dont like the concept of being able to kill from the red line. Proto-Stomping or not, i think it should go.
Midas Fool Black Phoenix Mercenaries Legacy Rising 368	Posted - 2014.02.13 20:56:00 - [175] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I read it. It was epic. Also just as a bit of trivia; the script I wrote for the video is 6000 words long. That's 10 pages printed out. And this is the edit. Those coloured bars are video segments. Each colour is a clip from a different video. Each video is recorded separately when I play the game. I used footage from 23 games. I have to record at least 60 games to get the 23 videos I needed and the right footage. I lost 32 million ISK in ships and tanks to get the footage of kills, maps and altitude etc for this single video. I have to be absoluty sure in what rails can do to a dropship and that means letting myself get killed with many different fits. People shot me down while I hovered to get the 100m and 200m footage i used in the side by side segment. That segment cost 3 million Isk alone. The blue bars in the FX rows in that edit are the special effects like the pointy green hand and the side by side. They have to be key-framed and animated by frame keys, which takes about 10 minutes to get 5 seconds of footage completed. Thanks for taking the time. On the subject of creating all of the scenarios, well done, and damn maybe we need a PS3 (or PS4 hint hint CCP) based Unreal Editor. I am absolutely sure you don't need the money, but I'm sending you some now to cover at least a few your expenses. I am happy to help support the endeavors of dropship pilots. I am in a strange state in RL at the moment, which is preventing me from putting time into anything, but I plan to also make Dust-related Youtube content when I get the chance. Thanks for generating content, keep doing what you do. +25 Kill Assist...+25 Kill Assist...+25 Kill Assist...NO HOW WHY
Nguruthos IX Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 2455	Posted - 2014.02.13 21:07:00 - [176] - Quote Skihids wrote: Welcome to New Eden, where we coddle you and take care of your every need. Feeling skittish? No problem, we'll give you a safe zone to shoot from where nobody can get to you! That's quite a reputation you have there... LOL, "Dust so hardcore" what sort of delusional red-line rail tanker could utter such words?
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2842	Posted - 2014.02.13 21:36:00 - [177] - Quote Judge is doing a fantastic job of presenting well researched analysis regarding dropships. I've been a long time advocate for them since closed beta myself, but burned out after a year of pounding my head against the wall and took a respec to preserve my sanity and my wallet. I'm glad that he picked up the slack and has taken it to another level. He puts in a ton of effort, not only the scripting and video editing (which I have some experience with long ago so I have an idea of the work involved), but in his analysis of the issues. Like many of us he wants a balanced and fun game, not an "I win" button. As I've pointed out in an old thread, games are enjoyable long term only if they present a challenge. OP assets are a short term joy-ride which soon turns boring. As a group, pilots are extremely proud of their skills. They don't want the requirements dumbed down to where just anybody can jump in and perform at the same level as an experienced pilot. They want all their experience to mean something. They don't want the dropship to become just another piece of equipment like the scanner that is just as effective in a beginners hand as someone who's been using it for a year. Pilots are equally against the role becoming OP and the next FoTM. We want it to be challenging AND rewarding. That's what I see in Judge. I'm not a fan of the dropship being used as a pure DPS platform and in my opinion it won't come into its own until communication mechanisms improve and we get game modes that require more than DPS to win. I'm not saying the dropship shouldn't be able to hunt tanks, but rather it should be capable of much more in a support role. As a pure DPS platform it is in direct competition with all the other slayers on the field. As an effective assault transport it would support those slayers and thus be far more accepted. They might hate to see an enemy dropship approach with a full assault squad, but they would be quite pleased to ride in one themselves. CCP has a lot of development to go to achieve that, but I think it's a far better direction than the ADS. As a support vehicle it could justify a higher eHP total and greater survivability.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1491	Posted - 2014.02.14 00:21:00 - [178] - Quote Midas Fool wrote: I'm sending you some now to cover at least a few your expenses. I am happy to help support the endeavors of dropship pilots. Sending me that much ISK is really generous. I was so happy when I saw my wallet! I know how hard you have to work to earn ISK and to pass it to me is really awesome. So thank you. I hope you got my in-game mail. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
BAD FURRY SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 473	Posted - 2014.02.14 00:25:00 - [179] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Midas Fool wrote: I'm sending you some now to cover at least a few your expenses. I am happy to help support the endeavors of dropship pilots. Sending me that much ISK is really generous. I was so happy when I saw my wallet! I know how hard you have to work to earn ISK and to pass it to me is really awesome. So thank you. I hope you got my in-game mail. now stop crying about your drop ship and the rest of you dont feed him Yes i am a Undead Hell Wolf ... nice to meat you!
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1491	Posted - 2014.02.14 00:26:00 - [180] - Quote Skihids wrote: Judge is doing a fantastic job of presenting well researched analysis regarding dropships......Like many of us he wants a balanced and fun game, not an "I win" button. .....As a group, pilots are extremely proud of their skills. They don't want the requirements dumbed down to where just anybody can jump in and perform at the same level as an experienced pilot. They want all their experience to mean something. They don't want the dropship to become just another piece of equipment like the scanner that is just as effective in a beginners hand as someone who's been using it for a year. Pilots are equally against the role becoming OP and the next FoTM. We want it to be challenging AND rewarding. Those are some kind words. And from a skilled pilot such as yourself I really do appreciate them. You nailed it on what pilots want. Well said. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight

Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries Legacy Rising 729	Posted - 2014.02.14 20:40:00 - [181] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Skihids wrote: Judge is doing a fantastic job of presenting well researched analysis regarding dropships......Like many of us he wants a balanced and fun game, not an "I win" button. .....As a group, pilots are extremely proud of their skills. They don't want the requirements dumbed down to where just anybody can jump in and perform at the same level as an experienced pilot. They want all their experience to mean something. They don't want the dropship to become just another piece of equipment like the scanner that is just as effective in a beginners hand as someone who's been using it for a year. Pilots are equally against the role becoming OP and the next FoTM. We want it to be challenging AND rewarding. Those are some kind words. And from a skilled pilot such as yourself I really do appreciate them. You nailed it on what pilots want. Well said. Seriously, this is exactly what pilots want. +1 skihids very well said!
Anoko Destrolock Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 40	Posted - 2014.02.14 21:13:00 - [182] - Quote You forgot to mention that a rail can 1 shot an ADS
Jariel Manton SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 238	Posted - 2014.02.14 21:27:00 - [183] - Quote Railgun falloff range. That is all. What Man Is A Man Who Does Not Try And Make The World Better Apollo Manton Insidious Empire
DELB0Y The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1	Posted - 2014.02.15 12:03:00 - [184] - Quote Did anyone check out Bam Havoks new video on redline pro tips? Its really incitefull and it also features a special guest star Judge Rhadamanthus himself. Im sure many of you guys think from Judges vids that he is serious and strait-faced 24/7 and it was fun to see comedy Judge in action. Props to Bam for his hilarious vid and for showing what players think about this redline sniping 'tactic' Link to Bams vid:Top Tips on how to Red Line Rail - FTW
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 299	Posted - 2014.02.17 00:33:00 - [185] - Quote CEO Pyrex agrees with Judge. While utterly dominating in a Domination (Assault Dropship), he lamented on the level of risk a prototype railtaink represents. He cited all of the rigorous evidence, because you guys think tanks should have less range and be prevented from pointing up... silly. I'm fine with removing redlines, but don't nerf the only real counter for the Dropship. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1504	Posted - 2014.02.17 00:39:00 - [186] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: I'm fine with removing redlines, but don't nerf the only real counter for the Dropship. You didn't watch the video did you. OR look at this chart. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries Legacy Rising 749	Posted - 2014.02.17 00:44:00 - [187] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: CEO Pyrex agrees with Judge. While utterly dominating in a Domination (Assault Dropship), he lamented on the level of risk a prototype railtaink represents. He cited all of the rigorous evidence, because you guys think tanks should have less range and be prevented from pointing up... silly. I'm fine with removing redlines, but don't nerf the only real counter for the Dropship. So its not okay for rail tanks to snipe across a map from close to the redline, but okay when they can sit so deep in the redline dropships have to recall or be shot down? Do you honestly know anything about dropships? At all? What is your experience with a dropship? They can keep their ridiculous damage and charge time because they are the "only" counter to other tanks, they shouldn't be able to have that kind of power from the safe zone, its balance bro, just think about. Also on every railtank thread there is a list of other counters besides a railgun.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 299	Posted - 2014.02.17 00:49:00 - [188] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Luk Manag wrote: I'm fine with removing redlines, but don't nerf the only real counter for the Dropship. You didn't watch the video did you. OR look at this chart. I watched it and I remember the chart. It proves nothing. I don't agree that you should have a safe zone completely out of range of all weapons. You can hit your AB and reach your own safe zone, and the redline is an unrelated problem with similar qualities. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 566	Posted - 2014.02.17 00:50:00 - [189] - Quote Judge, I have to say that I disagree with changing the ability for Tanks to move their turret up or down. I just imagine the scenarios where you cannot hit someone as they are close but have minor elevation. The only part where I think your video is erroneous or at least doesn't paint the most accurate portrait, in my opinion, is stating that a Dropship cannot sneak up on a Tank. Your chart, being a chart, is 2 dimensional and makes it a little bit rough to determine just how much coverage a single Tank can have. But the primary point is still very strong. I am not entirely sure what to change about Railguns and where but something needs to change. I hate to say it, but I loathe Railgun 'Tanks' more than the Gallente Federation. That is like me saying public urination is better than being publicly urinated on though.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 299	Posted - 2014.02.17 01:01:00 - [190] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: Luk Manag wrote: CEO Pyrex agrees with Judge. While utterly dominating in a Domination (Assault Dropship), he lamented on the level of risk a prototype railtaink represents. He cited all of the rigorous evidence, because you guys think tanks should have less range and be prevented from pointing up... silly. I'm fine with removing redlines, but don't nerf the only real counter for the Dropship. So its not okay for rail tanks to snipe across a map from close to the redline, but okay when they can sit so deep in the redline dropships have to recall or be shot down? Do you honestly know anything about dropships? At all? What is your experience with a dropship? They can keep their ridiculous damage and charge time because they are the "only" counter to other tanks, they shouldn't be able to have that kind of power from the safe zone, its balance bro, just think about. Also on every railtank thread there is a list of other counters besides a railgun. I think the redline should be an energy shield that blocks weapons fire. I think there should be more ways to kill the OP assault dropships. I understand that they are really fun and add some dynamic tactics to the otherwise two dimensional gunplay, but I really hate seeing those pilots get kill after kill with 0 deaths. I hate seeing them shoot up out of range of ALL weapons when there's a threat detected. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG

Beld Errmon 0uter.Heaven 1348	Posted - 2014.02.17 01:20:00 - [191] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: Luk Manag wrote: CEO Pyrex agrees with Judge. While utterly dominating in a Domination (Assault Dropship), he lamented on the level of risk a prototype railtaink represents. He cited all of the rigorous evidence, because you guys think tanks should have less range and be prevented from pointing up... silly. I'm fine with removing redlines, but don't nerf the only real counter for the Dropship. So its not okay for rail tanks to snipe across a map from close to the redline, but okay when they can sit so deep in the redline dropships have to recall or be shot down? Do you honestly know anything about dropships? At all? What is your experience with a dropship? They can keep their ridiculous damage and charge time because they are the "only" counter to other tanks, they shouldn't be able to have that kind of power from the safe zone, its balance bro, just think about. Also on every railtank thread there is a list of other counters besides a railgun. I think the redline should be an energy shield that blocks weapons fire. I think there should be more ways to kill the OP assault dropships. I understand that they are really fun and add some dynamic tactics to the otherwise two dimensional gunplay, but I really hate seeing those pilots get kill after kill with 0 deaths. I hate seeing them shoot up out of range of ALL weapons when there's a threat detected. You really are a moron, kill after kill with zero deaths? try flying one and tell me how you feel about losing 450+ k ISK because a 70k tank 2 shots you, or a 27k viper runs into you or though rarely these days an RDV decides to teleport into existence right in front of you. Redline rail tanks aren't the only counter, a good forge gunner can take a dropship down, 2 good forge gunners can wtfbbq one before he even has a chance to change direction, add in those forge gunners having squad mates that look after them (rep hives ect) and they are an unassailable hard counter to the lol OP dropship.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 299	Posted - 2014.02.17 01:25:00 - [192] - Quote Beld Errmon wrote: Luk Manag wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: Luk Manag wrote: CEO Pyrex agrees with Judge. While utterly dominating in a Domination (Assault Dropship), he lamented on the level of risk a prototype railtaink represents. He cited all of the rigorous evidence, because you guys think tanks should have less range and be prevented from pointing up... silly. I'm fine with removing redlines, but don't nerf the only real counter for the Dropship. So its not okay for rail tanks to snipe across a map from close to the redline, but okay when they can sit so deep in the redline dropships have to recall or be shot down? Do you honestly know anything about dropships? At all? What is your experience with a dropship? They can keep their ridiculous damage and charge time because they are the "only" counter to other tanks, they shouldn't be able to have that kind of power from the safe zone, its balance bro, just think about. Also on every railtank thread there is a list of other counters besides a railgun. I think the redline should be an energy shield that blocks weapons fire. I think there should be more ways to kill the OP assault dropships. I understand that they are really fun and add some dynamic tactics to the otherwise two dimensional gunplay, but I really hate seeing those pilots get kill after kill with 0 deaths. I hate seeing them shoot up out of range of ALL weapons when there's a threat detected. You really are a moron, kill after kill with zero deaths? try flying one and tell me how you feel about losing 450+ k ISK because a 70k tank 2 shots you, or a 27k viper runs into you or though rarely these days an RDV decides to teleport into existence right in front of you. Redline rail tanks aren't the only counter, a good forge gunner can take a dropship down, 2 good forge gunners can wtfbbq one before he even has a chance to change direction, add in those forge gunners having squad mates that look after them (rep hives ect) and they are an unassailable hard counter to the lol OP dropship. Oh, a painful insult! Most of my tanks cost 450k and I blow them up all the time, so I understand the risk (isk) vs reward game. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries Legacy Rising 749	Posted - 2014.02.17 01:28:00 - [193] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: Beld Errmon wrote: Luk Manag wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: Luk Manag wrote: CEO Pyrex agrees with Judge. While utterly dominating in a Domination (Assault Dropship), he lamented on the level of risk a prototype railtaink represents. He cited all of the rigorous evidence, because you guys think tanks should have less range and be prevented from pointing up... silly. I'm fine with removing redlines, but don't nerf the only real counter for the Dropship. So its not okay for rail tanks to snipe across a map from close to the redline, but okay when they can sit so deep in the redline dropships have to recall or be shot down? Do you honestly know anything about dropships? At all? What is your experience with a dropship? They can keep their ridiculous damage and charge time because they are the "only" counter to other tanks, they shouldn't be able to have that kind of power from the safe zone, its balance bro, just think about. Also on every railtank thread there is a list of other counters besides a railgun. I think the redline should be an energy shield that blocks weapons fire. I think there should be more ways to kill the OP assault dropships. I understand that they are really fun and add some dynamic tactics to the otherwise two dimensional gunplay, but I really hate seeing those pilots get kill after kill with 0 deaths. I hate seeing them shoot up out of range of ALL weapons when there's a threat detected. You really are a moron, kill after kill with zero deaths? try flying one and tell me how you feel about losing 450+ k ISK because a 70k tank 2 shots you, or a 27k viper runs into you or though rarely these days an RDV decides to teleport into existence right in front of you. Redline rail tanks aren't the only counter, a good forge gunner can take a dropship down, 2 good forge gunners can wtfbbq one before he even has a chance to change direction, add in those forge gunners having squad mates that look after them (rep hives ect) and they are an unassailable hard counter to the lol OP dropship. Oh, a painful insult! Most of my tanks cost 450k and I blow them up all the time, so I understand the risk (isk) vs reward game. Assuming you come out of the redline and risk anything. Also tanks don't die as quickly as dropships and are much better tanked when av tries to take them out. You must be fitting some good mods on a tank to get it to 450k that is just 100k or so more expensive than an assault dropships chassis.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 299	Posted - 2014.02.17 01:36:00 - [194] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: Assuming you come out of the redline and risk anything. Also tanks don't die as quickly as dropships and are much better tanked when av tries to take them out. You must be fitting some good mods on a tank to get it to 450k that is just 100k or so more expensive than an assault dropships chassis. I'm really not a fan of redline anything. My tanks are decent. I mostly play ambush these days, because too many matches end up on the redline. It's not fun on either side of the redline, and it's easier to stay Isk positive in quicker ambushes. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
CEOPyrex CloneA The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 609	Posted - 2014.02.17 21:28:00 - [195] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: CEO Pyrex agrees with Judge. While utterly dominating in a Domination (Assault Dropship), he lamented on the level of risk a prototype railtaink represents. He cited all of the rigorous evidence, because you guys think tanks should have less range and be prevented from pointing up... silly. I'm fine with removing redlines, but don't nerf the only real counter for the Dropship. No you are wrong, so wrong, in fact you are so far from being right that you had a make a two day trip to get to this conclusion (reasonably priced motel stop over - pool was crap - AC a little disappointing) Red line railgun tanks are VERY broken indeed, why should you have all the power and almost no risk at all. that to me smacks of 'im alright Jack' and protectionism. Frankly CCP are not showing much leadership or collaboration on this topic either, almost 3 months of 1.7 with very little sight of 1.8 coming except (before fanfest maybe) that means there is a potential 6 months between patches and that to me says this game is no longer important or valued by CCP and is being kept alive by a skeleton crew to keep the 1.6m GBP PA it perhaps makes going. CCP need to wake up and realize they have a rough diamond here that with the right level of effort would make good money, what we see instead is a focus on a tech demo game which requires the user to shell out -ú200 for a pair of goggles that are already technically obsolete, a WOD franchise that apparently is now going to be a bit like DAYZ (way to bandwagon onto a game that itself is already dead) and a cash cow that is about to be totally overtaken by Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous, both games with incredible pedigrees already. Seriously CCP are you asleep at the wheel?
Smooth Assassin Stardust Incorporation IMMORTAL REGIME 913	Posted - 2014.02.17 21:31:00 - [196] - Quote Foundation Seldon wrote: All credits to JudgeRhadamanthus for the video. Send any likes over to him at : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1806881#post1806881 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHy6CXWk3K4 A FANTASTIC look at the problem with Redline Rails in their current state of the game. Check it out. ... and i can't believe he doesn't have any subscribers... *Assassination is my thing.*
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1512	Posted - 2014.02.17 21:51:00 - [197] - Quote Smooth Assassin wrote: Foundation Seldon wrote: All credits to JudgeRhadamanthus for the video. Send any likes over to him at : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1806881#post1806881 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHy6CXWk3K4 A FANTASTIC look at the problem with Redline Rails in their current state of the game. Check it out. ... and i can't believe he doesn't have any subscribers... the sub list is hidden. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Sir Snugglz Red Star. EoN. 413	Posted - 2014.02.17 22:02:00 - [198] - Quote Smooth Assassin wrote: Foundation Seldon wrote: All credits to JudgeRhadamanthus for the video. Send any likes over to him at : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1806881#post1806881 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHy6CXWk3K4 A FANTASTIC look at the problem with Redline Rails in their current state of the game. Check it out. ... and i can't believe he doesn't have any subscribers... I'm subscribed.... -Luck is just one of my skills Just because I make flying look easy doesn't mean it is
Sir Snugglz Red Star. EoN. 414	Posted - 2014.02.17 22:12:00 - [199] - Quote Also, those that argue that rail tanks are only counter... Studies show that 45% of derpship deaths are caused by friendly RDV, 25% by enemy rdvs, 15% by pilots crashes without any outside forces contributing, 8% MCC/null cannon missiles/installations falling from sky, 5% rail tanks/forges, and 2% by swarms.... These numbers hold no merit and just wanted to announce that I have Lvl 1 incubus....valet the grind begin. -Luck is just one of my skills Just because I make flying look easy doesn't mean it is
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 305	Posted - 2014.02.18 14:16:00 - [200] - Quote The dropship problems will soon be resolved by my Caldari Sentinel...3 or 4 damage mods and a forge gun. I don't like having to chase dropships with a railtank, especially if it's the only enemy vehicle in play, because I should stay focused on the frontlines. The tank vs dropship battle sidesteps the infantry engagement while the pilots are basically off playing their own separate game of owl and mouse, and it's off-putting for a lot of shooter fans. It is hard to see your points on balance when good pilots are nearly unkillable and a surprise alpha strike by a rail tank, or a full AV squad is what it takes. Even then, I've watched you guys annihilate heavies in wide open areas, and I suppose you think that's normal. I know the game market competition is serious, and I know CCP has a lot of balance work ahead, but I will not assume they have discounted their efforts on Dust 514. We have the Gregorian and Chinese new-years to thank for a lot of the inaction, and likely a new and uncommunicated directive on larger less frequent updates. What, if anything, would be a viable alternative (in your thinking) to a railtank nerf? Cheaper, more hitpoints? Remember that railtanks are also critical for countering blaster tanks, who, like Assault Dropships, enjoy breaking infantry encounters with impunity. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG

Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 306	Posted - 2014.02.18 14:29:00 - [201] - Quote CEOPyrex CloneA wrote: Luk Manag wrote: CEO Pyrex agrees with Judge. While utterly dominating in a Domination (Assault Dropship), he lamented on the level of risk a prototype railtaink represents. He cited all of the rigorous evidence, because you guys think tanks should have less range and be prevented from pointing up... silly. I'm fine with removing redlines, but don't nerf the only real counter for the Dropship. No you are wrong, so wrong, in fact you are so far from being right that you had a make a two day trip to get to this conclusion (reasonably priced motel stop over - pool was crap - AC a little disappointing) Red line railgun tanks are VERY broken indeed, why should you have all the power and almost no risk at all. that to me smacks of 'im alright Jack' and protectionism. Frankly CCP are not showing much leadership or collaboration on this topic either, almost 3 months of 1.7 with very little sight of 1.8 coming except (before fanfest maybe) that means there is a potential 6 months between patches and that to me says this game is no longer important or valued by CCP and is being kept alive by a skeleton crew to keep the 1.6m GBP PA it perhaps makes going. CCP need to wake up and realize they have a rough diamond here that with the right level of effort would make good money, what we see instead is a focus on a tech demo game which requires the user to shell out -ú200 for a pair of goggles that are already technically obsolete, a WOD franchise that apparently is now going to be a bit like DAYZ (way to bandwagon onto a game that itself is already dead) and a cash cow that is about to be totally overtaken by Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous, both games with incredible pedigrees already. Seriously CCP are you asleep at the wheel? Thank you for the excellent reply. I loled at my trip to wrong-land. I'm right that you agree with Judge. I'm also right for implying that you have a history of endorsing OP tactics. You don't care that I agreed with the redline argument. I want CCP to remove the redlines and maybe just add a few more spawnpoints to prevent overcamping if they can't come up with a good solution (energy shield). You just like going 20/0 every match in an Assault Dropship, and you think it would be even better if you didn't have to worry about railguns, and the point about the broken redline is a convenient smokescreen. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
Foundation Seldon Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 469	Posted - 2014.02.18 17:40:00 - [202] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: CEOPyrex CloneA wrote: Luk Manag wrote: CEO Pyrex agrees with Judge. While utterly dominating in a Domination (Assault Dropship), he lamented on the level of risk a prototype railtaink represents. He cited all of the rigorous evidence, because you guys think tanks should have less range and be prevented from pointing up... silly. I'm fine with removing redlines, but don't nerf the only real counter for the Dropship. No you are wrong, so wrong, in fact you are so far from being right that you had a make a two day trip to get to this conclusion (reasonably priced motel stop over - pool was crap - AC a little disappointing) Red line railgun tanks are VERY broken indeed, why should you have all the power and almost no risk at all. that to me smacks of 'im alright Jack' and protectionism. Frankly CCP are not showing much leadership or collaboration on this topic either, almost 3 months of 1.7 with very little sight of 1.8 coming except (before fanfest maybe) that means there is a potential 6 months between patches and that to me says this game is no longer important or valued by CCP and is being kept alive by a skeleton crew to keep the 1.6m GBP PA it perhaps makes going. CCP need to wake up and realize they have a rough diamond here that with the right level of effort would make good money, what we see instead is a focus on a tech demo game which requires the user to shell out -ú200 for a pair of goggles that are already technically obsolete, a WOD franchise that apparently is now going to be a bit like DAYZ (way to bandwagon onto a game that itself is already dead) and a cash cow that is about to be totally overtaken by Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous, both games with incredible pedigrees already. Seriously CCP are you asleep at the wheel? Thank you for the excellent reply. I loled at my trip to wrong-land. I'm right that you agree with Judge. I'm also right for implying that you have a history of endorsing OP tactics. You don't care that I agreed with the redline argument. I want CCP to remove the redlines and maybe just add a few more spawnpoints to prevent overcamping if they can't come up with a good solution (energy shield). You just like going 20/0 every match in an Assault Dropship, and you think it would be even better if you didn't have to worry about railguns, and the point about the broken redline is a convenient smokescreen. I guess in these moments its easier to attack a person's "record" rather than the actual arguments that are being presented. To say that Pyrex agrees with Judge because he's Judge is to ignore every piece of evidence Judge has used to come to the conclusion that Rails need adjusting. It discredits both Pyrex in saying that he's only supporting him because they're buddy buddy and it discredits all the work Judge has put in trying to make his case. Likewise you contradict yourself on his "history" of endorsing OP tactics, if this were truly the case then why would Pyrex not be defending the Redline Rail mechanics in their current iteration? Why would he bother using Shotgun Scout (or Scout at all) in the amount of videos hes used them in? Why would, in his crusade to use everything OP, ever skill into Assault Dropships of all things given their state in the game? No one is denying that some of the blame should be put on the front step of the current iteration of redline mechanics but it's ridiculous to assume that having range that allows you to shoot from 100m into your own redline and tag enemies that are present near the opposing one is an acceptable position when you take in consideration the damage that they're able to effectively put out. Having a 600m effective range, in the current state of the game, is simply excessive. Even if we accept that Redline mechanics need to be changed then there'd still be a justifiable reason to nerf the effective range (or i'd still argue the damage) of Rails. I feel like people are totally glossing over the significant buffs they received going into 1.7, they simultaneously do more damage than their old compressed variant at a higher rate of fire and with lower heat gain and their influence has not only negatively effected the current state of Tank v. Dropship but has also made them more or less the only turret worth using in any sort of Vehicle v. Vehicle engagements. Saga v. Methana Balance
vogon mugwump Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2014.02.18 18:41:00 - [203] - Quote The problem is not rail gun tanks (although I personally think the rail guns in dust contradict what a rail gun in eve) the problem is that the counter to dropships as all you tankers say is a railgun tank in the REDLINE hence preventing your enemy from attacking you without receiving the timer of doom and risking loosing their assets. I say allow railgun tanks (no ones talking about getting rid of them though are they?) and keep the redline but push it outwards by a fair distance so that the playing field for both teams includes areas under both MCC's. I think there should still be a redline of some sort to keep combatants in the field of play however. Each team will need a staging ground however as the purpose of the current redline is to provide a place to muster and to retreat to when all is lost (not to hide a long range tank with immunity). CCP should at this point make steps towards the team commander role in my opinion, if not implementing it all at once then in steps starting with either a small gathering of modules that represent a staging area under the MCC to allow people to muster under a shield which cannot be penetrated by the enemy but also all team weapons are deactivated when within the shield. The long term of this is that the commander in the MCC must actually deploy the modules to form the staging area for his troops. There was something similar shows at one of the fanfest vids a few years ago where the guy demoing dust (it had jets too at the time... dunno what happened there lol) The modules for the staging areas could include things like - Shield generator - obvious ECM/ECCM modules they provide buffs/nerfs to your/enemies turret tracking and range, vehicle speed, armour/shield amounts etc. Landing area - where the RDVs can deploy to initially maybe they deploy quicker here than calling a vehicle in while in the field. CRU etc Turrets Sorry I go off on one a bit but I'm thinking expanding gameplay at the same time not strickly buffing/nerfing something that already exits.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 306	Posted - 2014.02.18 18:59:00 - [204] - Quote Foundation Seldon. LOL. These are the moments of hilarious deflections and unsubstantiated fluff. Yes, Judge has some specific points about the role of the dropship, emphasizing teamplay tactics (fulfilled by any dropship), and glosses over the infantry squad shattering impact of the Assault Dropship. To support the team play role, I would suggest extra HP when weapons are absent, but an offensive weapons platform needs to be vulnerable, or people will simply quit at higher rates. You can make reasonable points about dropships not having adequate cover on some maps, and that's largely a map design problem. You can't simply expect all maps be built to accommodate dropship tactics. I would personally like to see more infantry-only maps (all underground or starship interior). Other maps, like nearly all of them, were built for vehicle combat, and it is unrealistic for me to expect infantry-only engagements in open fields, likewise, it's unreasonable for you to think open skies should be ideal for your dropships. Some maps are more dangerous than others, and maybe we'll see more valleys/mountains/cityscapes provide cover for assault Dropships. I'm not a huge fan of the sniper role, AV or anti-infantry, but many years of PvP shooter history (industry wide), in every game, all have preserved the ominous threat elements that a sniper brings into the experience. Yes, they're annoying, but no, you will not be allowed to run amok. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
Foundation Seldon Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 469	Posted - 2014.02.18 20:32:00 - [205] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: Foundation Seldon. LOL. These are the moments of hilarious deflections and unsubstantiated fluff. Yes, Judge has some specific points about the role of the dropship, emphasizing teamplay tactics (fulfilled by any dropship), and glosses over the infantry squad shattering impact of the Assault Dropship. To support the team play role, I would suggest extra HP when weapons are absent, but an offensive weapons platform needs to be vulnerable, or people will simply quit at higher rates. You can make reasonable points about dropships not having adequate cover on some maps, and that's largely a map design problem. You can't simply expect all maps be built to accommodate dropship tactics. I would personally like to see more infantry-only maps (all underground or starship interior). Other maps, like nearly all of them, were built for vehicle combat, and it is unrealistic for me to expect infantry-only engagements in open fields, likewise, it's unreasonable for you to think open skies should be ideal for your dropships. Some maps are more dangerous than others, and maybe we'll see more valleys/mountains/cityscapes provide cover for assault Dropships. I'm not a huge fan of the sniper role, AV or anti-infantry, but many years of PvP shooter history (industry wide), in every game, all have preserved the ominous threat elements that a sniper brings into the experience. Yes, they're annoying, but no, you will not be allowed to run amok. Please point out what parts of my posts that could be considered "unsubstantiated fluff". It's a fact that Railguns of 1.7 do more damage than their old compressed variant with an improved heat gain and significantly higher rate of fire. Coupled with the addition of 30% damage mods and they're better than they've ever been. What's hilarious is you accusing someone else of using "deflections" when your last post began with attempting to discredit a player based on who they agreed with on a singular issue and what weapons they use in-game rather than the arguments said player was presenting. It's a classic ad-hominem and one you've been rightfully called out on. No one disagrees with you that Dropships need a reliable counter, Judge himself in the video he presented said as much himself. And trust me, having played through the game on and off since the E3 Build I know what it means when Dropships are able to "run amok". PreChrome/PreMissile Nerf Dropships were truly the Hammer of Thor on the battlefield. We don't want to see the return of that. Rails NEED to be a part of the game to act as a counter to Dropships. The problem, as mentioned over and over again, is that they risk absolutely nothing in being able to sit deep in their redline and be able to cover effectively the entire map. There are counters and then there's singlehandedly having the means to shut down the entire match for a branch of players while being invincible to anything else that may look in your direction. The counter lacks a counter itself. Regarding Infantry v. AV I'm absolutely inclined to agree, right now it's all in a state where there's difficulty in taking out even a Militia Baloch let alone someone that's as maneuverable as an Assault Dropship. This isn't what the topic of this discussion is about though. Saga v. Methana Balance
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 306	Posted - 2014.02.19 11:35:00 - [206] - Quote Ad-hominem? I don't think that applies when the claim is evidence based. It's more like a Dust Meme. Railguns do more damage, but HP and resistance values were modified so the dropship is tougher than ever. It was easier to one-shot a dropship pre 1.7, and while it may be true that railguns do more damage, the fact that dropships are more survivable now makes the statement about damage a misdirection. The whole video was the unsubstantiated fluff (with some excellent examples of team support - btw Judge, thanks for the videos). It had nice graphs, sure, but you could have just said. "I don't like how tanks are able to shoot up in the air." There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1514	Posted - 2014.02.19 16:42:00 - [207] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: The whole video was the unsubstantiated fluff I am pleased that you are taking the time to voice your disagreement with my commentary and supporting evidence in the video. I am all for people having and voicing their opinions. But It is hard for me to see where you think I went wrong or which issues I should revisit if you label the whole thing as "unsubstantiated fluff". I am working on a new video now about tanks with some balance issues addressed so If you have specifics then please point them out so I can correct if need be and put them into the next video. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
CEOPyrex CloneA The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 612	Posted - 2014.02.19 21:07:00 - [208] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: Ad-hominem? I don't think that applies when the claim is evidence based. It's more like a Dust Meme. Railguns do more damage, but HP and resistance values were modified so the dropship is tougher than ever. It was easier to one-shot a dropship pre 1.7, and while it may be true that railguns do more damage, the fact that dropships are more survivable now makes the statement about damage a misdirection. The whole video was the unsubstantiated fluff (with some excellent examples of team support - btw Judge, thanks for the videos). It had nice graphs, sure, but you could have just said. "I don't like how tanks are able to shoot up in the air." Look how stupid you are, seriously. The evidence is pretty clear, the case is practically open and shut, your little attempt to 'cloud' the issue has failed.
Leonid Tybalt Dark Knightz Corp. 242	Posted - 2014.02.19 21:30:00 - [209] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: I think railguns need to have their Alpha damage nerfed, if they want to maintain the range. It just doesn't make sense that they have awesome damage AND range. They easily outperform the other turret variants with the advent of the ultra high resistance hardeners. The only thing that can break such high resistances, is equally high alpha damage. While it won't fix the problem with redline rails, as that IS a terrain issue(and not something easy to fix), it will help to lessen the major impact railguns now play on the field. Dropships do have extreme mobility, but that feels wasted when you are easily shot down by something you can't even affect. Less damage means more time for a DS pilot to react, whether that be flippin on hardeners, evasive maneuvers, or breaking LOS. Currently, I feel that is the biggest issue facing dropships pilots AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN. (Yes, I know redline setup is an issue, still, I easily drop dropships out of the sky, and I DON'T REDLINE SNIPE. In turn, this would have a positive effect on tanks. Railguns are currently the go to weapon for anything vehicle destruction related above all other turrets. They work incredibly well at ANY RANGE. They outperform other variants on vehicles without hardeners and with hardeners. I feel there should be a trade off somewhere to bring it more inline with the performace of the other turret types. You can't have both the highest alpha and the longest range. Well you could, if you reduced clip size, ROF, and heat cost. But that's the point, got to lose in order to gain. Yes you can. There are more factors to take into account than just damage and range. Railguns have the slowest tracking speed of all turrets even if you have trained to lvl 5. Nerfed tracking speed translates directly into being forced to stay at long ranges to be able to track your target (closer ranges means your turret will get outmanouevred). Then theres elevation to consider. Magazine size for the main gun. Rate of fire etc. It's perfectly sensible for a weapon to have both high range and high damage, as long as it is lacking in other departments. Doesn't mean I don't think redline railtanks to be a problem though. It's just that nerfing the railgun significantly is not the best way to solve the problem, since the problem is the very existence of the redline in the first place. Taking it away from railtankers to abuse, while adding more home spawns, spread out wide on the edges of the map will eliminate effective spawncamping AND eliminate the issue of redline-abuse.
Fraceska Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 384	Posted - 2014.02.19 22:12:00 - [210] - Quote I watched that video mostly for flight shenanigans than on the topic at hand. Flying into the garage thingy? That is why I want to fly a DS. That is all. Continue with your debate.

Zirzo Valcyn Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 128	Posted - 2014.02.19 22:32:00 - [211] - Quote if each redline were a like meteor crater and the redline border was at the edge of the cratar, the only way to shoot out of the crater would be to leave the redline. u can ban the troll out of the forums but u can't ban the forums out of the troll.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 306	Posted - 2014.02.20 13:40:00 - [212] - Quote CEOPyrex CloneA wrote: Luk Manag wrote: Ad-hominem? I don't think that applies when the claim is evidence based. It's more like a Dust Meme. Railguns do more damage, but HP and resistance values were modified so the dropship is tougher than ever. It was easier to one-shot a dropship pre 1.7, and while it may be true that railguns do more damage, the fact that dropships are more survivable now makes the statement about damage a misdirection. The whole video was the unsubstantiated fluff (with some excellent examples of team support - btw Judge, thanks for the videos). It had nice graphs, sure, but you could have just said. "I don't like how tanks are able to shoot up in the air." Look how stupid you are, seriously. The evidence is pretty clear, the case is practically open and shut, your little attempt to 'cloud' the issue has failed. No hard feelings CEOPyrex, but neither the case or the proposed solutions will resolve anything. You guys think that being sniped is unfair, but it isn't...it's just not fun. Keep making the great videos. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
Beld Errmon 0uter.Heaven 1367	Posted - 2014.02.20 14:08:00 - [213] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: CEOPyrex CloneA wrote: Luk Manag wrote: Ad-hominem? I don't think that applies when the claim is evidence based. It's more like a Dust Meme. Railguns do more damage, but HP and resistance values were modified so the dropship is tougher than ever. It was easier to one-shot a dropship pre 1.7, and while it may be true that railguns do more damage, the fact that dropships are more survivable now makes the statement about damage a misdirection. The whole video was the unsubstantiated fluff (with some excellent examples of team support - btw Judge, thanks for the videos). It had nice graphs, sure, but you could have just said. "I don't like how tanks are able to shoot up in the air." Look how stupid you are, seriously. The evidence is pretty clear, the case is practically open and shut, your little attempt to 'cloud' the issue has failed. No hard feelings CEOPyrex, but neither the case or the proposed solutions will resolve anything. You guys think that being sniped is unfair, but it isn't...it's just not fun. Keep making the great videos. Being 2 shotted from the sky by a 70k isk tank that is unassailable isn't fair and isn't remotely balanced, when an ADS kills infantry they have options, I can understand how they feel about it, because the big bad sky tank can't be dealt with by spraying aim assisted bullets in its general direction, but if they think about it, the way they died isn't any different to being shot gunned in the back. The solutions in the video didn't sound great to me either, especially limiting the turrets ability to look up, that just makes it even more likely a railtank would stay far back on the field parked with its nose in the air, imo the redline should be removed in favor of another system, like a shield that can't be fired through or a base with indestructible AI turrets that pwn ppl that try and camp it, or hell bring back moving MCCs, make them circle the battlefield allowing for dynamic spawn locations.
Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 355	Posted - 2014.02.20 14:20:00 - [214] - Quote Good video. A few points I wanted to hit on, but just one for now. By about 22:22 Judge has already made his suggestion for reducing the elevation on Rail Turrets. That's fine. He goes on to say "Tankers can be defended from dropships easily. Fit a turret on the roof and you can hit us with the exact same weapon we're hitting you with. It becomes a fitting balance. No top turret, dropships have great advantage. If they're above you." About this 'fitting balance.' Secondary turrets can be very restrictive on CPU/PG. No matter which Small Turret slot you use on the fitting window (and no matter where it shows the turret on the fitting window model), your first turret defaults to the front. That means to put the turret on top, you must fit a front turret. Is this a bug, or is it intended? If it's a bug it needs to be fixed. If it's intended, it needs to be rethought. How is it 'fitting balance' for me to maybe be able to hit you with the same weapon you're hitting me with if I need to fit two of them to do it, only have one of them be useful (and only if you're in its firing arc,) and possibly sacrifice whatever tank, gank, or utility I had originally intended to fit? If I could actually get my turret to be on top without needing to fit two of them, all of my tank fits would have a top turret. Edit: added link to video DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/ EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 147	Posted - 2014.02.20 15:31:00 - [215] - Quote Don't forget drop ships get bonuses( rate of fire and damage ) to small turrets that tanks do not get. Argument is considerably flawed. Red line rails and snipers may be annoying but it really is due to the red line. In my opinion this whole argument is like scissors complaining that rock is smashing them too hard and that scissors needs to be able to cut paper and rock. Real drop ship pilots squad with rails, blasters, heavies, logis, scouts and they communicate. It is the team that wins the battle. Not one rail picking off a dropship who was picking off a logi that was repping a heavy that was covering a scout that was hacking a point. I have played against the best dropship pilots in the game, they usually average around a 6:1 kdr in PC. The ONLY thing killing them is rails and forges. Waiting for a dropships hardener to be on cooldown while watching for incoming rail fire while trying to secure a point takes timing as any pilot worth his salt bolts after taking one shot. Who cares if someone is railing from behind a rock in the very back of his red line, he's not dropping up links or hacking points. If he was out of the red line you would just hover over him and blow him up in 2 clips and we would all be crying for a dropship nerf. Rails need the alpha to pop hardened madrugars with dual reppers, dropships need to stay away from the pointy ends of rails. Don't try to balance the game around pub matches. Just my 2 cents.
Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries 780	Posted - 2014.02.20 17:58:00 - [216] - Quote Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: Good video. A few points I wanted to hit on, but just one for now. By about 22:22 Judge has already made his suggestion for reducing the elevation on Rail Turrets. That's fine. He goes on to say "Tankers can be defended from dropships easily. Fit a turret on the roof and you can hit us with the exact same weapon we're hitting you with. It becomes a fitting balance. No top turret, dropships have great advantage. If they're above you." About this 'fitting balance.' Secondary turrets can be very restrictive on CPU/PG. No matter which Small Turret slot you use on the fitting window (and no matter where it shows the turret on the fitting window model), your first turret defaults to the front. That means to put the turret on top, you must fit a front turret. Is this a bug, or is it intended? If it's a bug it needs to be fixed. If it's intended, it needs to be rethought. How is it 'fitting balance' for me to maybe be able to hit you with the same weapon you're hitting me with if I need to fit two of them to do it, only have one of them be useful (and only if you're in its firing arc,) and possibly sacrifice whatever tank, gank, or utility I had originally intended to fit? If I could actually get my turret to be on top without needing to fit two of them, all of my tank fits would have a top turret. Edit: added link to video Ummm you can bro, just put one turret on. I have dropship fits with only one turret and I can choose either side. Just select which spot you want it on and put it in. No need to also fit a front turret.
Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 359	Posted - 2014.02.20 18:00:00 - [217] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: Ummm you can bro, just put one turret on. I have dropship fits with only one turret and I can choose either side. Just select which spot you want it on and put it in. No need to also fit a front turret. It's as if you didn't read my post. Try again and report back. DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/ EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries 780	Posted - 2014.02.20 18:01:00 - [218] - Quote Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: Ummm you can bro, just put one turret on. I have dropship fits with only one turret and I can choose either side. Just select which spot you want it on and put it in. No need to also fit a front turret. It's as if you didn't read my post. Try again and report back. I really don't know what to tell you, I have a tank fit with a top turret and a tank fit with a front turret
Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 359	Posted - 2014.02.20 18:19:00 - [219] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: Ummm you can bro, just put one turret on. I have dropship fits with only one turret and I can choose either side. Just select which spot you want it on and put it in. No need to also fit a front turret. It's as if you didn't read my post. Try again and report back. I really don't know what to tell you, I have a tank fit with a top turret and a tank fit with a front turret Apologies for my rude tone then. In that case, it must be a bug. I just got into a match with a test fit HAV. I placed the turret in the left slot and the model showed it on top. I named the fit "top turret." When I called it in, the turret was on front. And as Judge states in his video, you can't balance around bugs. EDIT: Which isn't to say don't balance it, but rather, fix the damn bug. DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/ EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries 780	Posted - 2014.02.20 18:36:00 - [220] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: Don't forget drop ships get bonuses( rate of fire and damage ) to small turrets that tanks do not get. Argument is considerably flawed. Red line rails and snipers may be annoying but it really is due to the red line. In my opinion this whole argument is like scissors complaining that rock is smashing them too hard and that scissors needs to be able to cut paper and rock. Real drop ship pilots squad with rails, blasters, heavies, logis, scouts and they communicate. It is the team that wins the battle. Not one rail picking off a dropship who was picking off a logi that was repping a heavy that was covering a scout that was hacking a point. I have played against the best dropship pilots in the game, they usually average around a 6:1 kdr in PC. The ONLY thing killing them is rails and forges. Waiting for a dropships hardener to be on cooldown while watching for incoming rail fire while trying to secure a point takes timing as any pilot worth his salt bolts after taking one shot. Who cares if someone is railing from behind a rock in the very back of his red line, he's not dropping up links or hacking points. If he was out of the red line you would just hover over him and blow him up in 2 clips and we would all be crying for a dropship nerf. Rails need the alpha to pop hardened madrugars with dual reppers, dropships need to stay away from the pointy ends of rails. Don't try to balance the game around pub matches. Just my 2 cents. Do tanks need a ROF or damage skill? I mean don't they get tracking stuffs in their skill tree? If they had more damage it would only be rails. In my opinion tanks don't have a rock paper scissors, they have rock, the rail gun. I think that the rail gun should have reduced elevation and range. It would still be able to shoot across the map, just not from the safety of the redline. Why shouldn't the dropship have the option to engage? Honestly if a tank can't figure out how to deal with a dropship floating over him he's a bad tanker, and in PC I'm sure they are using gunnlogis and Maddie's that takes a while to destroy if well fit. Anyway reduce elevation and range to make the rail have a role, that of a tank destroyer. Then if the tank destroyer wants AA but a turret on the roof. Then give the missile turret increased elevation to counter dropships. Rail anti tank, blaster anti infantry, missiles anti air. Rock paper scissors. Quite frankly I care if he is behind a rock in the redline because that means no more flying for me, and if so I'll either get shot down or be next to useless. Because that requires no skill PC or pub. I'm shocked that people haven't figured out different ways of shooting down dropships in PC, but then again people don't even want to add dropships into their tactics and think about when they are truly vulnerable. I'm not going to tell you, but I'm waiting until av figures it out on their own.

D legendary hero Ultramarine Corp 1662	Posted - 2014.02.20 18:38:00 - [221] - Quote Foundation Seldon wrote: All credits to JudgeRhadamanthus for the video. Send any likes over to him at : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1806881#post1806881 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHy6CXWk3K4 A FANTASTIC look at the problem with Redline Rails in their current state of the game. Check it out. the single best video i have ever seen on dust514. bravo judge. You have been judged. 9.8/10 Sou o Defendeiro dos derrubados_Pronto saberá justiça
Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries 780	Posted - 2014.02.20 18:39:00 - [222] - Quote Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: Ummm you can bro, just put one turret on. I have dropship fits with only one turret and I can choose either side. Just select which spot you want it on and put it in. No need to also fit a front turret. It's as if you didn't read my post. Try again and report back. I really don't know what to tell you, I have a tank fit with a top turret and a tank fit with a front turret Apologies for my rude tone then. In that case, it must be a bug. I just got into a match with a test fit HAV. I placed the turret in the left slot and the model showed it on top. I named the fit "top turret." When I called it in, the turret was on front. And as Judge states in his video, you can't balance around bugs. EDIT: Which isn't to say don't balance it, but rather, fix the damn bug. EDIT: And just for ***** and giggles, go ahead and make a test fit HAV, Numnutz. In the fitting window, only fit one small turret. Make sure you can see that the fitting window model shows the small turret up top. Name it "Top Turret Test" to make it obvious. I used a Soma. Maybe you can try a Sica. Let me know what you find out. No worries, I have been avoiding getting on dust as I'm sure there are hundreds of forge guns waiting for my dropship. I had made a fit with a top turret but I can't remember if it actually was on the top in game or not. I know it showed up on top in fitting. Maybe I'll get on and call one in. If you are correct then yes CCP should fix it.
Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 359	Posted - 2014.02.20 18:42:00 - [223] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: If you are correct then yes CCP should fix it. DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/ EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 149	Posted - 2014.02.20 23:46:00 - [224] - Quote In my opinion tanks don't have a rock paper scissors, they have rock, the rail gun. I think that the rail gun should have reduced elevation and range. It would still be able to shoot across the map, just not from the safety of the redline. Why shouldn't the dropship have the option to engage? Honestly if a tank can't figure out how to deal with a dropship floating over him he's a bad tanker, and in PC I'm sure they are using gunnlogis and Maddie's that takes a while to destroy if well fit. Anyway reduce elevation and range to make the rail have a role, that of a tank destroyer. Then if the tank destroyer wants AA but a turret on the roof. Then give the missile turret increased elevation to counter dropships. Rail anti tank, blaster anti infantry, missiles anti air. Rock paper scissors. Quite frankly I care if he is behind a rock in the redline because that means no more flying for me, and if so I'll either get shot down or be next to useless. Because that requires no skill PC or pub. I'm shocked that people haven't figured out different ways of shooting down dropships in PC, but then again people don't even want to add dropships into their tactics and think about when they are truly vulnerable. I'm not going to tell you, but I'm waiting until av figures it out on their own. [/quote] We obviously have different opinions on the subject and different perspectives. Fair enough, to touch on your reply. You are wrong for thinking that a dropship firing missiles with 10% more damage and 50% faster rate of fire from the skill trees in a vehicle that can move in any X, y or z coordinate over a stationary tank where the driver is now manning the same turret on top with 10% less damage, and 50% less rate of fire. This is not an option, 2 players of equal skill will always have the dropship winning that fight, which I understand is what you want but is not BALANCE. Without holding your hand and telling you exactly how to play and COUNTER every possible tactic I will help you with the rail tank problem Judge was facing in the video. 1. Notice as a rail tank, judge could only hit the dropship that landed and stopped moving on the tower, also that he did next to zero damage to the tank below him near the supply depot. I was expecting to see him try to lead a barrel rolling, swerving It is not as simple as point rail at enemy and hold down fire UNLESS THE ENEMY FLOATS THERE LIKE A BLIMP OR HAS NO DEFENSE. Rail hits you? Move. Now you are learning. 2. 8000 damage in a quarter of a second? Not from one source. Let's exaggerate and say a rail can do 4000 damage after tracking and spooling when you float there like a blimp with your hardners off, then if you have any health left you have a quarter second to avoid the next shot. How fast are your reflexes? The good pilots need well under a quarter second to chose a random direction and flight path. To take the time to do the math behind the probable max slope and coverage of the rail and them completely blow damage out of proportion is rather suspect. Not difficult to estimate damage by adding 30% of 1880 to 1880 three times. 3. Top turret in an immobile tank is not a counter to a skilled up turret in a mobile dropship. Militia sniper rifle on a starter fit is not a counter to a damage modded Thales on a proto suit ( see what exaggeration does? ). 4. The sense of entitlement that dropships have regarding engaging anything on the board is ridiculous. I have probably popped 300 tanks in the exact position judge describes as removing "all risk" associated with calling in a rail. If a dropship pilot tells me "enemy rail, redline mountains west of mcc" the enemy rail will be dealt with. He doesn't have to try and engage but sure he might feel like he deserves the "right" to engage. Why shouldn't a 4 or 5 capped player have a "right" to engage a dropship pilot farming infantry trying to cap a letter. Entitlement is a two way street, balance. Scissors tries to cut paper hacking a point on the bridge or dropping up links, rock lines up scissors and fires, scissors falls back and calls out rocks position. Paper smashes against paper on the bridge, rock smashes against rock away from the point. Oh no! double repped and hardened ion scissors pushing the bridge, rock smash on scissors while getting smashed by rock. Balance. While judge is articulate in the video and has a firm grasp of flying dropships, it is his understanding of the larger picture that comes into question. A good organized team of 16 has no problem winning against 6 redline rail tanks ( leaving 10 infantry to capture and hold 5 points ) because they ADAPT. Hint, don't dropship against 6 redline rail tanks. The video could be summed up as this: "Hi, I want to call my dropship and hover over the bridge without getting railed unless I can fly over to the rail and pop him before I go back to farming Militia suits on the bridge, I am entitled to every inch of airspace at all times and should never consider my team has no contingency for anyone trying to counter me."
Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 361	Posted - 2014.02.20 23:57:00 - [225] - Quote The video states that the elevation on a Large Rail Turret is 45deg. I can buy that. What is it on a Small Rail Turret? DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/ EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1523	Posted - 2014.02.21 00:17:00 - [226] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: "Hi, I want to call my dropship and hover over the bridge without getting railed unless I can fly over to the rail and pop him before I go back to farming Militia suits on the bridge, I am entitled to every inch of airspace at all times and should never consider my team has no contingency for anyone trying to counter me." I feel a little disappointed that you feel so threatened by the facts that you need to try to ridicule me. I understand your approach, and your weaknesses; but why not try engage me on my level. Give me facts. Show me me evidence. Your quote is easily dismissed. I clearly did not say that as anyone who sees the video can see. So while I can see that you find difficulty in understanding the issues, you only need to ask and we can explain to you how fairness for all is what we want. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 361	Posted - 2014.02.21 00:22:00 - [227] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Doc DDD wrote: "Hi, I want to call my dropship and hover over the bridge without getting railed unless I can fly over to the rail and pop him before I go back to farming Militia suits on the bridge, I am entitled to every inch of airspace at all times and should never consider my team has no contingency for anyone trying to counter me." I feel a little disappointed that you feel so threatened by the facts that you need to try to ridicule me. I understand your approach, and your weaknesses; but why not try engage me on my level. Give me facts. Show me me evidence. Your quote is easily dismissed. I clearly did not say that as anyone who sees the video can see. So while I can see that you find difficulty in understanding the issues, you only need to ask and we can explain to you how fairness for all is what we want. While your here, quick response on the top turret bit. DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/ EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1523	Posted - 2014.02.21 00:27:00 - [228] - Quote i think i mentioned that "bugs aside" as the fact you cont choose your turret location is a known bug. As for the elevation - I found 57 degees.. but not happy with the testing which is why i didn't include Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 149	Posted - 2014.02.21 00:28:00 - [229] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Doc DDD wrote: "Hi, I want to call my dropship and hover over the bridge without getting railed unless I can fly over to the rasummarynd pop him before I go back to farming Militia suits on the bridge, I am entitled to every inch of airspace at all times and should never consider my team has no contingency for anyone trying to counter me." I feel a little disappointed that you feel so threatened by the facts that you need to try to ridicule me. I understand your approach, and your weaknesses; but why not try engage me on my level. Give me facts. Show me me evidence. Your quote is easily dismissed. I clearly did not say that as anyone who sees the video can see. So while I can see that you find difficulty in understanding the issues, you only need to ask and we can explain to you how fairness for all is what we want. My previous statement sums it up. Not interested in lowering my level to yours as my goal isn't to make dropships broken. Sorry you feel ridiculed by my summary of your video. Interesting that you chose to gloss over every point I made, very telling. Probably over your head though. Countered.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1523	Posted - 2014.02.21 00:30:00 - [230] - Quote Fair enough. I shall leave it to each individual to make a judgement on my video vs your post. That is the essence of an open and fair forum. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight

BAD FURRY SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 566	Posted - 2014.02.21 00:30:00 - [231] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Doc DDD wrote: "Hi, I want to call my dropship and hover over the bridge without getting railed unless I can fly over to the rasummarynd pop him before I go back to farming Militia suits on the bridge, I am entitled to every inch of airspace at all times and should never consider my team has no contingency for anyone trying to counter me." I feel a little disappointed that you feel so threatened by the facts that you need to try to ridicule me. I understand your approach, and your weaknesses; but why not try engage me on my level. Give me facts. Show me me evidence. Your quote is easily dismissed. I clearly did not say that as anyone who sees the video can see. So while I can see that you find difficulty in understanding the issues, you only need to ask and we can explain to you how fairness for all is what we want. My previous statement sums it up. Not interested in lowering my level to yours as my goal isn't to make dropships broken. Sorry you feel ridiculed by my summary of your video. Interesting that you chose to gloss over every point I made, very telling. Probably over your head though. Countered. Judge Rhadamanthus is one of the worst drop ship players in game i would not even wast my time. Yes i am a Undead Hell Wolf ... nice to meat you!
Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 361	Posted - 2014.02.21 00:31:00 - [232] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: i think i mentioned that "bugs aside" as the fact you cont choose your turret location is a known bug. As for the elevation - I found 57 degees.. but not happy with the testing which is why i didn't include A DUST IRC chat I'm having right now would lead me to believe that not being able to chose your turret location is a bug is in fact not well known. You don't mention that in your video. And to be clear, the elevation for Large Rails is 45deg, and Small Rails is 57deg? As far as the issue at hand, sure, go for it. Adjust rail elevation and range (EDIT: and fix the turret placement bug. Can't say "put on a unbonused top turret to defend yourself against my ADS bonused turret" when you can't pick where it goes, can you?) You did mention something to the effect of "while the maps are so small." Is this nerf something you'd be fine with reverting when we get larger maps/open world? DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/ EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1523	Posted - 2014.02.21 00:35:00 - [233] - Quote Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: s this nerf something you'd be fine with reverting when we get larger maps/open world? Not a nerf. Simply an adjustment until the maps require it. Making things fair and balanced is not a nerf. It is a fair balance. THe current maps do not need 600m range. In the future, yes. But right now. No. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1523	Posted - 2014.02.21 00:38:00 - [234] - Quote BAD FURRY wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus is one of the worst drop ship players in game i would not even waste my time. I don't really think you mean that. But I am interested as to why you feel it matters as regards balance. No matter how bad I am personally, does that make the redline rail tanks less of an issue? Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Sir Snugglz Red Star. EoN. 434	Posted - 2014.02.21 00:38:00 - [235] - Quote I wish the MCC had a hanger with derpships ready to deploy, then we all fly out like a boss. -Luck is just one of my skills Just because I make flying look easy doesn't mean it is
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 149	Posted - 2014.02.21 00:51:00 - [236] - Quote I'd like the Rdv to drop me and my tank in at the start of battle.
BAD FURRY SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 567	Posted - 2014.02.21 00:59:00 - [237] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: BAD FURRY wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus is one of the worst drop ship players in game i would not even waste my time. I don't really think you mean that. But I am interested as to why you feel it matters as regards balance. No matter how bad I am personally, does that make the redline rail tanks less of an issue? no i dont just seeing you post over redline rails being unfair when its the fault of CCP for making the maps so small and not editing the map to where yes you can call in your tanks in cover but not shoot from on top of something over looking most of then map . 2nd this that do,s get the team something to fight back with if red lined the game should not be over if one side zreg rushs or we may as well be playing BF. my plan move the redline back open up the map so 600 is not from redline to red line to top it off put buildings and hard to drive up hills to block rail gun fire from red line rail tanks.... i remember back in the day CCP had maps like this tanks had to drive out of there spawn into the open to shot at anything so as to why we need to work on dialing back the range on rails then work to put them back to 600 when ps 4 comes is just dum in my book . SO lets save the time by keeping the rail range next time CCP can edit the maps do what i said about the hard to drive up hills and building and i bet you would want to kiss me ! Yes i am a Undead Hell Wolf ... nice to meat you!
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1523	Posted - 2014.02.21 01:05:00 - [238] - Quote I really agree with you Bad Furry about the maps. CCP made mistakes. Bad Furry you had hit the main issue. However we need to look at the man hours it takes to fix. Can we wait 5 months for map fixes or 2 months for a range change? A fix of some sort is needed soon, but not so that rails are hurt in the long run. When maps get bigger rails will need that range. Now? I don't think so. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 149	Posted - 2014.02.21 01:25:00 - [239] - Quote Maps bigger.


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