Remote Armor Repair. Find a logi. Hug your logi. Love your logi.

Add the Armor Honeycombing skill from EVE. This gives a 5% reduction to the movement penalty per level of armor modules

reduce the movement penalty proportionally to the armor increase. Basic -> Enhanced is a 25% armor increase, so the penalty should increase by 25%, which so the penalty should be roughly 3.75%, Enhanced -> Complex is roughly 25% so the penalty should be 4.69%.

GÇó GIVE SUITS THAT FOCUS ON ARMOR TANKING, BONUSES TO ARMOR USAGE! This is probably the most important thing that would need to be looked at before changing armor tanking, because if we change all the armor modules and skills etc, then what we will create is good armor tanks, but better shield tanks. Shield tanks can stack more complex modules than armor tanks and on top of that they would now have lower penalties for armor tanking so they can go fully defensive an out tank us even more, or use up armor modules and use their excessive High slots for weapon modifiers.

Every time I make a post suggesting to fix armor I can't ever suggest anything without thinking at how much shield tanks would benefit from it, so the only way to really fix it is to add passives for the Armor races for just being the race, or increase the speed of all suits that focus on using armor so when the penalty hits it would put us on par with a normal suit that focuses on shields while both having an equal EHP with equal investment.

Also I believe that armor should fragment and increase the damage we take from explosives progressively, so instead of a MD doing 130% damage initially it would start out at 100% and go up as our armor goes down; almost everything on the field is made to destroy armor so we should have a fighting chance at least. Flux grenades should also have the ability disrupt the recharge delay and have a EMP effect, so if I get fluxed my shields would take longer to recharge and my sensors would be disrupted pretty much a flash bang/grenade.

Every time I make a post suggesting to fix armor I can't ever suggest anything without thinking at how much shield tanks would benefit from it, so the only way to really fix it is to add passives for the Armor races for just being the race, or increase the speed of all suits that focus on using armor so when the penalty hits it would put us on par with a normal suit that focuses on shields while both having an equal EHP with equal investment.

Also I believe that armor should fragment and increase the damage we take from explosives progressively, so instead of a MD doing 130% damage initially it would start out at 100% and go up as our armor goes down; almost everything on the field is made to destroy armor so we should have a fighting chance at least. Flux grenades should also have the ability disrupt the recharge delay and have a EMP effect, so if I get fluxed my shields would take longer to recharge and my sensors would be disrupted pretty much a flash bang/grenade.

For dropsuits, one thing to consider with a speed increase is that, in combination with lots of low slots on armour tanking suits, the modules that increase speed would now make speed tanking easier as well. Would a fast Gallente scout benefit out of proportion? A Gallente prototype scout has 4 low slots and 5.5 m/s move, 7.6 m/s sprint right now.

Hmm, the fragment effect is a cool one and should be added.
Also, so what if they dual tank?
We can dual tank too.
We can also fit damage mods.

For dropsuits, one thing to consider with a speed increase is that, in combination with lots of low slots on armour tanking suits, the modules that increase speed would now make speed tanking easier as well. Would a fast Gallente scout benefit out of proportion? A Gallente prototype scout has 4 low slots and 5.5 m/s move, 7.6 m/s sprint right now.

All of these fixes together WILL BE too much, however tweaking the numbers here and there would be good.
With these numbers you can get 454 armor hp + 50hp/s regenration.
Or 1030hp with 15hp/s regeneration.
So yeah. (This is one a Gallente logi)

Also, instead of increasing the armor hp to such a high place, put complex plate to 44 hp.
So 22/33/44.
And then put complex plates at 130.
So 65/97/130.
This would put shields and armor inline in terms of increase but won't put armor at super uber high hp.

That would work, yeah.
It would nerf shield tanking fairly significantly at the same time as buffing armour quite a bit, though, so that's perhaps not ideal.

Hey CCP FoxFour, its time for you to shine!
We know you're a Gallente bro, push the people responsible to balance!

Me and Arkena promise, if you manage to make them balance armor and shield, we will stop calling you SoxFour.

I don't think devs read these posts as much as they should :(

We will push FoxFour on IRC to read it.
This will hopefully make him push it to the people responsible for balance.

IMO
1.Change the gallente and amarr assault suits skill bonus from 5% shield recharge to 5% reduction to armor plates speed penality.
2.Give shields a proper drawback. In eve armor plates slows you down BUT shields increase your sig. radius.
Just give shield extender a sig radius penality like in eve so that armor is slower but shields make you more visible on the battlefield.
-Basic shield extender +3% sig radius
-Advanced shield extender +5% sig radius
-Proto shield extender +10% sig radius

So you compare speed penalty vs sig radius?
In what world is it fair?

You suggested fixes would keep shields superior.

In the world of EVE were sig radius matters a bit more, in our world sig radius isn't as important as speed. Sig radius doesn't save my life as much as running away.

IMO
1.Change the gallente and amarr assault suits skill bonus from 5% shield recharge to 5% reduction to armor plates speed penality.
2.Give shields a proper drawback. In eve armor plates slows you down BUT shields increase your sig. radius.
Just give shield extender a sig radius penality like in eve so that armor is slower but shields make you more visible on the battlefield.
-Basic shield extender +3% sig radius
-Advanced shield extender +5% sig radius
-Proto shield extender +10% sig radius

Did FoxFour read it

I'm in agreement with the plate penalty being too heavy handed. It's penalisation being speed also puts the Gallente scout in an awkward position, having it's two strengths potentially impinging on one another. Shifting the penalty to stamina would remedy this.

Armour is in a very rough place compared to shields in almost all areas of capability. This does call for them to be evened out but this doesn't necessarily mean armour being brought up to the same kind of level as shields, bringing shields more in line with armour is also an option. Giving it trade-offs of another kind, reducing the hp granted by complex extenders, perhaps increasing the delay on shield recovery or a reduction to recharge speed. The extender is the main one I'd advocate, going overboard and reversing the situation between armour and shields I would not.

The decision about which direction to take it, which one should be made to meet the other, is a gameplay one. Where do you want the TTK to be at? Do you want to trivialise non-lethal damage or make people bear their wounds longer?

The bottom line is that by buffing one thing you are also, in essence, nerfing everything else and vice versa. As most of the tools in Dust revolve around either making someone's health hit zero or preventing your own from doing the same shields and armour tie into this particularly heavily.

Make passive shield regen slower, add shield transfer arrays. Fix modules accordingly, giving armor a pure HP advantage (still) unless shield extenders get a noteworthy penalty.

in the dust keynote a while back ( i'm going to have to re watch it there was mention of new armor mods one of them was ferro scale plates witch didn't have the movement issue but had another drawback i also think part of the issue is just what the games has set for the sentinels design they work best on maps like domination when they can either take a dropship or a lav into the lone point when its neutral or spawn there when its caped

along side ferroscale plates was mention of the sentinels opposite the commando a slightly more mobile heavy that trades a some of the heavy's trademarked shield and armor for the ability to carry two light weapons and a side arm

edit: i don't really think their is much to be changed not everything is in place yet it really kittens me off that they rushed the launch to have it take place on 5/14

starting to see your point one way to fix this is to make plate armor self healing but nickel and dime it and like you said up the amount repaired by armor reps and make reactive armor plates when the come out give damage resistance in addition to hp


edit somthing like 1/2/3 on plates and 5/8/12 on reps migt do it

Resistance on plates is an interesting idea, and one that's worth noting.

I run both, does that cause some form of time paradox?

FoxFour said he'd read this later on IRC.
Maybe I'll stop calling him SoxFour.

I'm disappointed by the lack of feedback, particularly from shield tankers.
Do I need a more provocative title? What about "LOL DUST SUX SHIELDS R SO GUD"?

Shield tankers to busy pub stomping to care. Especially with the TACAR nerf around the corner they gotta get as many kills a possible.

I like somebody's suggestion that armor should have an endurance and sprint penalty rather than regular speed penalty. Basically if you have complex armor you can't 'sprint' worth crap.

My response:

1) Logi=gun off the field- sort of true, but a player hiding while their shields recharge is also a 'gun off the field'.

2) Just to be fair you didn't factor weapon usages/effectiveness against these different suits.

For example the AR does 110% to shield and 90% to Armor.

AR-Against the complex modules...
Complex shield has 59.4 EHP
Complex armor has 126 EHP

So technically when you are considering the AR, the complex armor is 2.12x better than complex shield. When looking at scrambler rifle it is 2.61x better.

3) "In the time it takes to be killed....shield recharge rep wins out over all" Shield depletion delay time is big elephant in the room here IMO. The 5-10 seconds that a shield player's shield is depleted is their big weakness.

I like somebody's suggestion that armor should have an endurance and sprint penalty rather than regular speed penalty. Basically if you have complex armor you can't 'sprint' worth crap.

My response:

1) Logi=gun off the field- sort of true, but a player hiding while their shields recharge is also a 'gun off the field'.

A logi actively repping someone during combat takes their gun off the field - the hiding while shields recharge is only 'after combat'.

2) Just to be fair you didn't factor weapon usages/effectiveness against these different suits.

For example the AR does 110% to shield and 90% to Armor.

AR-Against the complex modules...
Complex shield has 59.4 EHP
Complex armor has 126 EHP

So technically when you are considering the AR, the complex armor is 2.12x better than complex shield. When looking at scrambler rifle it is 2.61x better.

That's true, but you still need to fit repairers on armour, which reduces the buffer tank available.
In addition, that's giving a fairly narrow view of things. The AR may be the most used, but the resist profile for armour is generally worse due to the explosive hole, and there are plenty of weapons which do more damage to armour than shields. The SMG, HMG, MD, and a number of other weapons completely wreck armour. The explosive hole is so big on armour as well that it's a huge disadvantage.
I covered resist profile in the second post, I think.

3) "In the time it takes to be killed....shield recharge rep wins out over all" Shield depletion delay time is big elephant in the room here IMO. The 5-10 seconds that a shield player's shield is depleted is their big weakness.

Shield recharge delay goes down to about 3 seconds at the high end. Also, if shields aren't fully depleted, it starts ticking from the first shot, so you sometimes recharge under fire.

Answers in bold inside the quote.

First. My thanks goes out to the OP. This is a serious problem that needs to be addressed. Your OP brilliantly lays out the issues.

IMHO Speed tank is king! I've mentioned this in a previous feedback post, But due to the way DUST applies reverse acceleration penalties to fast rotational movement, it is impossible to hit fast moving targets at close range. Shield Tanking is currently better, because you can only speed tank if you shield tank [/u].

The best tank at the moment is a fast dropsuit, stacked with speed /endurance mods and some shield and damage mods. At 0 - 20 meters, you will literally strafe faster than the enemy can track with the mouse/right thumbstick. If you are engaged at 20 - 40 meters you still have the speed to sprint faster than a player can accurately track. This is compounded by the rotational penalties applied to medium and heavy suits, and any armor tank (armor plates reduce rotational speed).

Also, neither the scrambler rifle nor the Flux grenade are significant counters to shield tanking. While dealing increased damage to shields, the scrambler rifle is incredibly difficult to hit with. Hit box detection, speed tank, lag, and rotational reverse acceleration, combined with the lower rate of fire mean that actually applying scrambler rifle damage is more difficult. DUST 514's lag compensation mechanism seems to work in favor of faster rate of fire weapons (more rounds down range in any given moment means more chances for the lag compensator to apply). Also, even though the Scrambler rifle does more damage to shields, it is still incredibly effective against armor, both dealing massive damage, and better hit probability due to the slower speed of armor tankers.

Flux grenades are plagued with the same dsync and hit detection problems as Flaylocks and Mass Drivers. I can't tell you how many times I have dropped a Flux grenade directly on someone and they have not taken any shield damage. This is partially due to the speed tank. Speed tankers in scout suits can jump above the flux radius of damage. I have seen numerous people jump completely over the flux radius.

As for the shield/armor balance, I submit the following ideas which I think synergize well together.

STEP 1: What if shield extenders actually extended the dropsuit's hit box? Isn't that what a shield EXTENDER is actually doing...extending the shield? It would work something like this. If a shield extender is fitted, and the dropsuit's shield is active (not depleted) then the hitbox would be increased according to the penalty associated with the shield extender module. This penalty would increase the better the module and the penalty would stack the more modules fitted. When the shield depletes, the hitbox returns to its normal value until the shield begins to recharge.

STEP 2: Move all shield moduels to high slots. Significantly lower shield recharge rates and increase shield recharge delay across the board. Add a base armor repair rate to dropsuits (like a built-in nanite repair capability). Then give all suits a bonus to their racial tanking ability that increases with the number of modules fit. Minmatar and Caldari get a bonus to shield extender amount, shield recharge rate and recharge delay. Gallente and Amarr get a bonus to armor amount, armor repair rate and reduction to movement penalty. These bonuses would have a base value if no appropriate modules were fit, but would increase proportionally with the number of modules.

Lore friendly bonuses from the EVE universe (my understanding)
Minmatar: Speed and Shield bonuses (fastest)
Caldari: Shield and range bonuses (Shield Tankiest)
Gallente: Armor and Shield bonuses (balanced tank and speed)
Amarr: Armor and damage bonuses (armor tankiest)

STEP 3 Add mid-slot range modules (increased optimal, increased falloff). This would balance the many low slot utility modules. Honestly, I'm not sure about what type of modules these should be, but there need to be more high-slot utility modules. Having the damage and range modules in high slots would seem to be EVE appropriate. Caldari and Minmatar have inherently better range projection, but to maximize it they have to compromise their tank. Amarr and Gallente are known for their close range face melting, but have to compromise tank in order to increase speed.

I've always been puzzled how the Armour Plates are the only module with a drawback. I've heard some explain this as weight slowing you down, but in the far future why do we make things stronger by making them heavier? Why can't we just use more durable material that isn't made out of concrete? (better material would explain the increased cost in ISK as well as the increased CPU/PG strain on the suit).

As it seems counter-productive to complain about the speed penalty (as I'm sure it is a balancing factor), I'll focus on the way that it scales as I think it is absolutely absurde. The basic module grants you 65 hp to armor and a 3% speed reduction. This module is, in my opinion, the BEST armor plate you can purchase. While the Advanced and Proto armor plates grant more HP, they also take an inordinate amount of speed with them. Here's the current spread between HP gained, Speed Reduction, and SP required to use these modules:

Module________________Armor HP__Speed Decrease__SP Investment
Basic Armor Plates_________65________3%____________55,970
Advanced Armor Plates_____85________5%___________242,510
Complex Amor Plates______115_______10%___________932,760

So while Complex Plates offer less than 2x the protection of Basic Plates, they reduce your speed by more than 3x!! Advanced Plates aren't any better, giving you 1.2x more protection, again at the cost of almost 2x speed reduction over the Basic Plates.

While using a Complex Armor Plate does save you a module slot, it costs you almost 1mil SP to get a massive speed reduction that is far worse than 2 Basic Armor Plates in armor granted, speed penalty, SP investment and ISK cost.



I like ZDub's suggestion better than mine (as it has math and stuff), so while you'll see it later in this thread:

Here are two more threads on how Armor Plates are ridiculously penalized:

Armor Plates
[Request] Infantry Armor Plates

Here's my OP in my Armor Thread:

-snip-

Good news ... it only took CCP ~ 10 years to start trying to balance Armor vs. Shields in EVE. ... hopefully we'll see a response here "Soon(tm)".

I won't give my input until I am online and you include PG/CPU costs of said modules
You totally glanced over an area where armor is favorable

Shields are still superior.

*facepalm*
The OP is using a rigged set of data where the thesis is being supported but if the OP was to include PG/CPU costs then the data would be more wholesome and thus be a valid statement (given that the argument still holds up which I suspect won't)

You can't purposefully leave out data and make claims.

If we neglect the fact that there has never been a sighting of Godzilla ever in human history, and show nothing but movie footage, Godzilla exists to this day!

*facepalm*
The OP is using a rigged set of data where the thesis is being supported but if the OP was to include PG/CPU costs then the data would be more wholesome and thus be a valid statement (given that the argument still holds up which I suspect won't)

You can't purposefully leave out data and make claims.

If we neglect the fact that there has never been a sighting of Godzilla ever in human history, and show nothing but movie footage, Godzilla exists to this day!

CPU/PG are not defensive stats, they are a resource to be managed pre game. While we're are at it let's dig up the ISK cost and the time it takes to ship from the manufacturer.

Total eHP, eHP regeneration, and speed are all defensive stats.

But that's thinking in terms of one dimension.
How much regeneration can you get if your CPU/PG is maxed? How much HP when maxed? How many modules are you able to fit at all to aid in your tanking given CPU/PG costs?

Yes ISK cost is important too, because if something is more cost effective then that is a point to consider!

All the good points about armor are overlooked because of some obsession that no matter how you look, shields win.
Shields are first line of defense, but after they are gone, there is a delay before recharge (10 seconds) where you are vulnerable to armor.
Shield tankers experience the following disadvantages:
1. Flux Nade Vulnerability: Their primary defense can be vanquished in an instant and their raw un-tanked armor underbelly is exposed.
2. Can Not Regenerate Armor
3. Sum Tank additions are less than Armor tank additions
4. Recharge is halted when damage is taken, at any level of significance
5. Have a delay before recharge is restarted, two different times, one which is longer than the normal when all shields are depleted.
6. High CPU/PG costs for modules, causing stress on fitting capabilities or sacrifice of tank
7. HP per Module compared to CPU/PG costs is significantly higher than shield[fixed] tanking.

These were the things I saw that drew me to armor tanking and I am perfectly fine with armor tanking. I will admit that something is screwy about Complex plates (in other words module progression) but that is where my problems with armor tanking sort of cease.

No player is able to fit all of the modules they wish they had. The issue I have with Armor Plates is that there is no reason to spec up to Level 5 in them as has been stated again and again in this thread. If you'd like to make the argument for CPU/PG stats, it'd be nice to bring them to the conversation.

________________________CPU/PG
Basic Armor Plates_________10/1
Advanced Armor Plates_____20/6
Complex Armor Plates______30/12

Basic Shield Extender________18/3
Advanced Shield Extender____36/6
Complex Shield Extender_____54/11

At first glance, Armor Plates have a CPU advantage. But wait! Those plates don't fix themselves!

Basic Armor Repair________20/1
Advanced Armor Repair_____35/5
Complex Armor Repair______45/11

I have numbered your points for response purposes:

1. Yes, Flux are effective against Shields. Locus are great against Armor, and they have a Fused variant.
2. If they don't want to. They have low slots as well that I know they haven't been filling with Shield Extenders.
3. Which is a great Armor advantage, however it's equals out to 2 shots from automatic weapons, and 1 shot from semi-auto weapons. Oh wait, the Armor guy has a speed penalty, right?
4. Indeed, recharge is also faster for free. There are also modules that increase the rate of repair and the speed they start repairing at if those are concerns. Armor needs modules just to begin repairing!
5. See #4
6. Plates save on CPU compared to Extenders, but they have compairable PG. If you want repairing Armor, you're spending way more CPU/PG.
7. Yes, but you have less CPU/PG and slots to fit them as you split the availability with repairers.

1. Yes locus grenades are good against armor but everyone has shields, so there is a rechargeable barrier there preventing all that grenade going straight into armor. Armor is second line defense not first. But both kind of weigh each other out. It's just that if you put all your chips into shields then come across a flux nade you might as well be paper in the wind. Locus grenades do not always take out all your armor like a flux always takes out all your shields.
2. Yeah but a shield tanker purest lets say will fill those slots with regulators. Yes I find it off that shield tanking (infantry) supports armor regeneration but here's the thing, Armor Repairers are CPU heavy and that will cause the shield tanker to make sacrifices. However their low slot capability does not work so well.
3. Well if you move like a slug then play like a slug. Don't try to act like a cheetah if you can only move so fast. Armor tanking requires a different style than shield tanking, one that calls for the sacrifice of mobility. Move like a chess piece, think like a chess piece. Shield tanking is a little more "in the moment" while armor tankers are more long haul kind of people.
4. Well the faster recharge is a perk of shield tanking, they have to have some good points you know.
5. As do shield tankers, if they want to preserve armor. Armor tank suits favor low slots so you should have extra room to fit that armor repairer and HEY! Your shields regen for free too! *Not all armor tankers pack a repper, sometimes it's better to go all out tank and have a buddy with a tool*
6. Yes you are, an inherit risk of armor tanking, but armor plates cost less cpu/pg and give more HP (significantly) so doesn't that sort of even out?
7. (first of all the HP per CPU/PG is significantly higher if you are shield tanking than armor tanking) Yes, but self repping armor is still a choice, you can do more tanking in its place. But lets suppose you do,
5 x Shield Extenders (supposing you can fit them) = 330 for 270 CPU / 55 PG
2x Complex plates = 330 for 60 CPU/24 PG

You see there ^ ? That's plenty of room for Complex armor reps, you have room for 3 but for comparable health!

I think #7 is a good example of why armor is working pretty much.

EDIT: I left out a crucial point that armor is slower than shield tanking (if you choose to use plates). That is what equalizes the playing field and again, move like a slug, play like a slug.

No matter what, I feel like complex modules should be MORE efficient than basic modules for buff per penalty.

If we kept with the 3% move penalty / 65 armor you're looking at 0.046% move penalty per armor point... At which point advanced should be like 0.035% and complex at 0.03%...

So..
Basic, 65 Armor - 3% move penalty
Complex, 115 Armor - 3.45% move penalty.

That way, it is never more efficient to run basic > complex.

1. Yes locus grenades are good against armor but everyone has shields, so there is a rechargeable barrier there preventing all that grenade going straight into armor. Armor is second line defense not first. But both kind of weigh each other out. It's just that if you put all your chips into shields then come across a flux nade you might as well be paper in the wind. Locus grenades do not always take out all your armor like a flux always takes out all your shields.
2. Yeah but a shield tanker purest lets say will fill those slots with regulators. Yes I find it off that shield tanking (infantry) supports armor regeneration but here's the thing, Armor Repairers are CPU heavy and that will cause the shield tanker to make sacrifices. However their low slot capability does not work so well.
3. Well if you move like a slug then play like a slug. Don't try to act like a cheetah if you can only move so fast. Armor tanking requires a different style than shield tanking, one that calls for the sacrifice of mobility. Move like a chess piece, think like a chess piece. Shield tanking is a little more "in the moment" while armor tankers are more long haul kind of people.
4. Well the faster recharge is a perk of shield tanking, they have to have some good points you know.
5. As do shield tankers, if they want to preserve armor. Armor tank suits favor low slots so you should have extra room to fit that armor repairer and HEY! Your shields regen for free too! *Not all armor tankers pack a repper, sometimes it's better to go all out tank and have a buddy with a tool*
6. Yes you are, an inherit risk of armor tanking, but armor plates cost less cpu/pg and give more HP (significantly) so doesn't that sort of even out? EDIT See #7
7. (first of all the HP per CPU/PG is significantly higher if you are shield tanking than armor tanking) Yes, but self repping armor is still a choice, you can do more tanking in its place. But lets suppose you do,
5 x Shield Extenders (supposing you can fit them) = 330 for 270 CPU / 55 PG
2x Complex plates = 330 for 60 CPU/24 PG

You see there ^ ? That's plenty of room for Complex armor reps, you have room for 3 but for comparable health!

I think #7 is a good example of why armor is working pretty much.

EDIT: I left out a crucial point that armor is slower than shield tanking (if you choose to use plates). That is what equalizes the playing field and again, move like a slug, play like a slug.

yeah they really need to fix armor it is so broken, yes you can heal a hole 2-5hp a second no matter what but the pg and cpu demands on a armor dude is ridiculous to get 317hp on a suit requires it to move so slow there is no point in even having them you just cant have armor plates on stuff it is how the game is right now it will change someday and maybe armor will be king in the next update/patch.

Pretty much.
Though I highly doubt armour will ever be 'king'.

Armor shouldn't be king, but neither do shields. Deciding to pick what suit one is to run, and what tanking method they will prefer, shield tanking or armor tanking, should be a cosmetic and/or personal choice neither should be better than the other but sadly this is untrue.

How the system is now even a suit that relies on armor has to shield tank if he wants to survive.

nothing wrong with armor its a different play style don't stack armor plates its not worthwhile

shields lack the ability to put on damage mods
armor lacks the ability to put on profile dampeners and scan enhancers

shields are better against burst damage from snipers
armor is better against small arms fire

shields are more solo oriented since people with armor repairs don't gain much
armor are more team oriented since people with armor repairs can heal them

shields lose shields that's it
armor still have shields to come back online as well as their armor

Weapons with significantly higher shield damage than armour:

Laser Rifle, Scrambler Rifle, Flux Grenade.

Weapons with slightly higher shield damage than armour:

Shotgun, Assault Rifle, Sniper Rifle, Railgun, Blaster, Plasma Cannon, Forge Gun.

Why do people always forget that Hybrid weapons actually deal more shield than armour damage? It isn't a huge imbalance, but it's still an advantage to armour tanking, particularly when the armour tankers also have higher base HP to go along with that (slight) edge in resistance against almost all the common weapons on the battlefield.

---

More seriously though, the core mechanics of the infantry side of DUST greatly favour shield-tanking, while HAVs at least (not entirely sure about other vehicles) favour armour in the game's current state.

Your forgetting the weapons that do have an edge against armor, like missiles, grenades, mass drivers, flaylock pistol, smgs, HMG, and remote explosives. All of which have a 130% damage increase against armor.

Flaylock is around 150%, as well as all other explosives.

1. Just as it takes a Flux and then shooting to kill a Shield Tanker, it takes Shooting then Locus to kill an Armor Tanker. While the Locus isn't the definitive tool that Flux is against Shields, Flux cannot kill players on it's own (barring that glitch doesn't raise it's ugly head again). Both are tools to be used against a type of protection, however you cannot carry both (not an argument for or against, just a statement of fact).
2. I run a Militia or Basic Armor Repairer on my Caldari Medium Frame (*gasp*). While it doesn't provide a lot of health repair, if I take damage to my Armor and survive to get my shields back up and running, my Armor will steadily repair (while my shields take any additional shots) until I'm back to full. And the 20/1 CPU/PG is well worth the cost. While Shield Regulators can definitely be handy, I have SP to spend on other things than Level 5 Regulators...
3. Slugs are one thing, but adding 2 Complex Armor Plates turns your walking speed into your sprinting speed. While there are situations where speed isn't as necessary, after first contact, being able to react is an invaluable asset in defence, offense, support and objective control. Foresight and planning may allow you to account for one or two of these roles, but the speed restriction limits your overal flexibility.
4.
5. While you can run all Plates and rely on Repair Tools to keep you healthy, we're now using additional players.
6. They cost less CPU, PG is about equivalent. I can't argue that more HP isn't better, but that's ignoring the drawback (the "drawback" being a trait only held by Armor Plate Modules)
7. Except 2 Complex Plates = 230, still admirable (but then we get back to the 20% speed reduction...).

I still like this standpoint on a change:

I don't even care if the Basic was 3%, Enhanced was 4% and Complex was 5% speed reduction, that'd be fine by me.

Oh **** me, sorry had a blond moment

Alright, for 3 complex plates you're getting 345 HP for less pg/cpu and stuff even with Complex reps on it. You wouldn't be able to fit any complex reps on the shield suit using all those extenders. BUT AGAIN SOMETHING WHACK ABOUT THOSE COMPLEX PLATES.
1. Well when you lose all armor you die, so that is a perk of having an anti-armor tool I guess, and a perk to armor tanking.
2. Yes and like I said, a little fishy that shield tanking and armor repair go hand in hand.
3. Slugs are an analogy. Heavies don't play like a scout right? Well why should an armor tanker play like a shield tanker? If mobility is now your weakness, then don't rely on it, don't play like you can move like Jet Li. You can't and you will die trying. Mobility is only as important to you as you make it out to be, so if mobility is really your thing, then shield tank!
4. Hey man, if armor's only weakness was the mobility reduction, it would probably be overpowered.
5. True, I guess I shouldn't have, but there is no outside tool in the game for infantry that pops your shields back to full perkiness, a tool that negates the recharge delay. On top of that armor tanking leads to WP farming....if you want to look at ti that way.
6. Not really ignoring the drawback because in my mind, like #3, you have to play like you are. There is no sense on depending/playing on your mobility when you lack it. (I will get to you arkena in due time)
7. Yeah again, blond moment, so now you're running 3 complex plates for less CPU/ more PG now (Powergrid and armor go hand in hand though) and you have room for repair modules BUT AGAIN SOMETHING WHACK ABOUT THOSE COMPLEX PLATES. They should probably be set at 150 so that 2x complex plates + a little something extra > 5 complex extenders.

Alright so with armor, you want the plate numbers and thuse CPU/PG per plate to be the same (which is whack on complex plates) and instead make them more mobile efficient? Honestly it's not a bad start but the PG is still going to be excessive on those complex plates.

Weapons with significantly higher shield damage than armour:

Laser Rifle, Scrambler Rifle, Flux Grenade.

Weapons with slightly higher shield damage than armour:

Shotgun, Assault Rifle, Sniper Rifle, Railgun, Blaster, Plasma Cannon, Forge Gun.

Why do people always forget that Hybrid weapons actually deal more shield than armour damage? It isn't a huge imbalance, but it's still an advantage to armour tanking, particularly when the armour tankers also have higher base HP to go along with that (slight) edge in resistance against almost all the common weapons on the battlefield.

---

More seriously though, the core mechanics of the infantry side of DUST greatly favour shield-tanking, while HAVs at least (not entirely sure about other vehicles) favour armour in the game's current state.

Yeah, this would work generally.
I disagree with a couple though - Gallente are meant to be armour tankers. The only reason they might appear to be shield tankers as well is due to the tank type imbalance - it becomes more effective to shield tank them, though they're not intended for that purpose. I'd go for damage bonuses - Gallente are meant to be up-close gank types. I see you've assigned this to the Amarr - I'd instead recommend additional tank bonuses, as Amarr have a tendency to be extremely tanky.
That's up for debate though, and it's not like CCP are likely to implement this exactly (or at all) anyway.


Like tracking computers in EvE? I quite like this idea. It would help, but it might create new problems similar to sharpshooter with complex modules being better than the basics to the point where older characters can become completely untouchable to newer players by stacking range modules.
Amarr are actually quite good with their damage projection - thematically, range increases don't fit in with the Galente as much.
In EvE, damage modules are actually in the low slots (contributing to an armour/shield imbalance there, as well) but the better range modules are in the midslots.

This idea is a bit more meh than the others in the end. It brings back problems with sharpshooter, and it seems like a placeholder for other highslots modules.
Even so, there is a distinct lack of useful highslot modules other than shield and damage modules.

Thanks for the feedback - It was useful, and I'll update the OP(s) to reflect this.

Confirmed for SoxFour read:
[17:55] <@[CCP]FoxFour> Yup, I read it yesterday but decided that I really shouldn't respond in my intoxicated state
[18:01] <@[CCP]FoxFour> Yea, my response is mainly "holy **** I know understand things better, but I don't handle this stuff so let me pass this thread on to those who do this stuff"

I say we increase all Gallente dropsuits' walking/sprint speed to compensate just like their HAVs!!

I say we increase all Gallente dropsuits' walking/sprint speed to compensate just like their HAVs!!

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic due to the HAV imbalance, but I don't think that alone is the solution.

Actually that was a solution I posted a while back, increasing the Gallente speed by about 6% actually mitigates the speed penalty enough that stacking an extra armor module is worthwhile and balances the builds in terms of total EHP, but as a negative it leaves us with one less low slot.

High slot passive armor damage reduction could help fix this

If my caldari assault loses armor, I won't get that back unless I stumble across a repair tool.

Gallente, unless they for some reason forego reppers, will always reach full health again.

That's a huge advantage. Actually... I may try fitting a repper. Many times I die when having my meager armor at 100 instead of at 30 may have saved me. Every time you end an encounter at 50 armor, know that you will not survive another encounter identical to that.

That said, I think armor plate speed reduction should be reduced slightly (2/3 of what it is now?) And reppers boosted by about 1 or 2 HP / second.

Just looking at stats I'd guess that they're balanced when you can fit good reppers (at least 15 / second) but are weak at basic and questionable at advanced until you skill up.

I don't think devs read these posts as much as they should :(

I am going to be honest, I learnt a fair bit reading this post. I actually asked Arkena to make this post as he was explaining armor tanking to me in IRC.

I can't really comment on this very much though as it is not an area I work on. I can and will say however that those that do work on this stuff have read this thread. It actually made it into our weekly community report today that gets sent around to everyone working on DUST.

Thank you very much for this post. :D

I am going to be honest, I learnt a fair bit reading this post. I actually asked Arkena to make this post as he was explaining armor tanking to me in IRC.

I can't really comment on this very much though as it is not an area I work on. I can and will say however that those that do work on this stuff have read this thread. It actually made it into our weekly community report today that gets sent around to everyone working on DUST.

Thank you very much for this post. :D

What I don't get is why don't shield extenders increase your sig radius? Shields should make you easy to spot on the minimap. The bigger your shield the harder it is to hide.

Also proposed numbers...

Standard Armor rep +4 hp/sec
Enhanced +8 hp/sec
Complex +12 hp/sec

Also why did CCP pick bonuses out of a hat for dropsuits? Eve online has been going through a huge overhaul of all ships bonuses. Yet in dust they can't even get that right?

I am going to be honest, I learnt a fair bit reading this post. I actually asked Arkena to make this post as he was explaining armor tanking to me in IRC.

I can't really comment on this very much though as it is not an area I work on. I can and will say however that those that do work on this stuff have read this thread. It actually made it into our weekly community report today that gets sent around to everyone working on DUST.

Thank you very much for this post. :D

After having thought about this some more... I think i'm starting to get a feel for what CCP intends with armor tanking.

First off, buff armor tanking, dont nerf shield tanking!! Shield tanking is in a great spot right now in terms of TTK.

Just a few small changes that would make armor tanking completely viable.

First... I think enhanced shield extender should be 44 hp, to make it 22-44-66. Not bringing complex down to 22-33-44

Now, I think they need to buff armor plates hp a lot while changing the speed penalty to 6-8-10%. Probably have armor plates with triple the HP of shield extender. So... 66-132-198 armor per plate. This leaves higher tech plates more efficient, and crazy EHP. The idea behind these plates is... medium suits should not want to use them. These should be for armor tanking heavies that dont feel the move speed penalty so badly, and get high EHP for their money. However, if a medium suits wants to take the move speed hit, they can get some nice ehp as well. However, for medium suits.. move speed is king/

Next, introduce the ferroscale plates. These should have no move speed penalty at all, and be at 2x shield extender hp which puts it at 44-88-122 hp. These are the medium suit's desired low slot extender.

Next, passive armor reps in high slots. This allows armor tanks to fit both plates and reps at the cost of neither. And also have room for a cpu/pg upgrade as needed. Change armor reps to 2-4-6 per second, they should rep slowly. Shield tanks should have burst regen at the cost of EHP.

Finally, reactive plates, which give reduced hp with armor regen. This is for shield tankers, when we want small passive reps to slowly bring back that armor we cant passively rep anymore due to armor reps being a high slot item. Reactive plates will have 'around' the same hp as shield extender, not even gonna bother with numbers, and have small hp rep... probably 2-2-3 per second or so.

This makes armor tanks absolutely viable and effective.

I'm sure its where CCP intends to go, but they just haven't coded it yet. Another example of balancing against items that are not yet in game.

Yeah fair enough, shield tankers have to go between rechargers and extenders too, its just not that big of a deal with the passive recharge that comes with the suit.

Maybe moving all EWAR modules to high slots would be the better way to do it.

That way shield tankers have to decide between profile dampening vs shield mods and armor tankers have to decide between sta/speed mods and armor mods. Lending to each types inherent weakness in EVE.

What I don't get is why don't shield extenders increase your sig radius? Shields should make you easy to spot on the minimap. The bigger your shield the harder it is to hide.

Also proposed numbers...

Standard Armor rep +4 hp/sec
Enhanced +8 hp/sec
Complex +12 hp/sec

Also why did CCP pick bonuses out of a hat for dropsuits? Eve online has been going through a huge overhaul of all ships bonuses. Yet in dust they can't even get that right?

do agree

armor currently is massively unfair
it would make more sense if fights went on longer so the delay was of more use to armor tankers atm they dont do its pointless

Armor reps need a large buff poss upto 10 for the plex
Armor penalty needs to go find somthing else which does not affect your aim and turn speeds, i dont mind run speed but i better get a larger buffer
Modules need higher hp than current, not by much just abit to help out modules

think there will be more med slot modules coming so that will balance out in time

I am going to be honest, I learnt a fair bit reading this post. I actually asked Arkena to make this post as he was explaining armor tanking to me in IRC.

I can't really comment on this very much though as it is not an area I work on. I can and will say however that those that do work on this stuff have read this thread. It actually made it into our weekly community report today that gets sent around to everyone working on DUST.

Thank you very much for this post. :D

Solutions could easily be introduced into the already existing skills.
The 2% bonus to armor reps is laughable. 5 levels to gain a Minmatar Medium Assault armor rep bonus when using a Comples repairer.

Plates shouldn't reduce movement speed, only sprint.

If CCPs solution to armor tanking is to introduce less HP no movement penalty modules, armor suits will need an extra low slot.

My number one issue with armor tanking, is that I can't stack armor plates as effectively as a shield tanker can stack extenders.

While I *do* stack them, I end up with less HP *and* penalized. Sure enough, a heavily shield tanked assault suit doesn't have damage mods, but in the long run, it doesn't matter as much.

Gallente suits for one, should have a 1 HP armor rep to armor repairers per level for Assault Suit (and the fitting bonus for the spec.)

I am going to be honest, I learnt a fair bit reading this post. I actually asked Arkena to make this post as he was explaining armor tanking to me in IRC.

I can't really comment on this very much though as it is not an area I work on. I can and will say however that those that do work on this stuff have read this thread. It actually made it into our weekly community report today that gets sent around to everyone working on DUST.

Thank you very much for this post. :D

GALLENTE!
REJOICE!

Caldari Logistics NO racial
EHP: 843

Caldari Logistics racial
EHP: 934 <-- holy sh...

Gallente Logistics
EHP: 698

Caldari Assault
EHP: 846

Gallente Assault
EHP: 773

Gallente Assault 6% speed buff
EHP: 828


Gallente Logistics 6% speed buff
EHP: 753

CaLogi NO racial -1 High slot
EHP: 770

_________
Amarr Assault
EHP:811

Amarr Logistics
EHP:736

Minmatar Assault
EHP: 862 <-- 5.01m/s base speed after armor modules, wow...

Minmatar Logistics
EHP: 733 <-- 4.72 base speed after armor modules

Armor/Shield balance needs to be balanced at the suit level first, then work on buffing the armor modules themselves. Doing so would move the Amarr and Minmatar to the top of the OP list, while balancing the Gallente and Caldari in the bottom end.

^^this. the heavies base EHP is 800. so these guys are running around with the strength of a heavy the faster shield recovery (yes thier shields recharge faster than heavies as a base ability), faster turning speed, faster sprint/movement speed, and over all greater mobility. add in the bunny hopping, and you can basically do the job of a heavy at half the price, and be twice as effective.

CCP why do you hate heavies?


P.S. don't even talk about heavies armor or shield tanking the amount of slots we get at proto level are laughable.

the primary concern about heavies is that approaching 1300 HP requires at least 2 complex plates and a crippling speed penalty. Further, without completely maxing out both armor and the shield upgrade skill the base health of a heavy is less than a tanked caldari medium suit.

Before anyone says defensive roles, that's a s**tty copout. sentinels are defensive. Heavies are heavy. Further, the speed penalty is crippling when the defender is so pathetically easily outflanked.

until CCP does 64v64 or higher matches people do not have the manpower to park 4 or more fatties on a cap point.

In ambush fatties are sitting ducks.

to a lesser extent so are gallente and amarr medium/assault suits.

I'll be honest here - I'm not a heavy player, so I don't feel qualified to make a comprehensive comment on the issue.
I really do agree with you though. Speed penalties hurt enough for medium frames - I imagine heavies, already struggling for speed, suffer horrible things.

After i play my heavy alt more and skill him up we can talk. I can already say that HMG + Militia Heavy suit often gets wtfpwned by newbie suits. the EHP is laughably low.

I pretty much have maxed support skills and often a militia fit caldari medium frame (standard) lives longer than my heavy fit. It depends what I'm fighting though.

As always some enemies are easier than others.

Oh and the points you made apply to heavies as much if not more in your OP. There's really no functional difference in the downsides between the various classes. it's just more obvious in the heavy, but proportionally equally problematic.

At the current rate the smart thing for hevies will be to jump ship to caldari/minmatar as soon as the suits are released.

A sad example of how important mobility is.

Tbh the militia heavy has lower HP than normal heavies, so the EHP isn't helping you much anyway.
Your main problem is probably that the militia suits can actually hit you properly.

my thoughts are that CCP has always kinda had a bass-ackward view of shield Vs. tank. It's evident in EVE online especially.

Shields are the tougher nut, you only need to wait for them to recharge, and there's ways to make that happen insanely fast.

Armor is pretty much SOL without local reps.

Shields tend to be standoff and long range.

Armor tends to be wade-in-and-smash.

Shields seem to be faster

Armor is slower.

Armor needs to be able to get in fast in order to deliver anything resembling damage properly.

I am going to be honest, I learnt a fair bit reading this post. I actually asked Arkena to make this post as he was explaining armor tanking to me in IRC.

I can't really comment on this very much though as it is not an area I work on. I can and will say however that those that do work on this stuff have read this thread. It actually made it into our weekly community report today that gets sent around to everyone working on DUST.

Thank you very much for this post. :D

There are a few solutions to this problem that I would suggest. Please feel free to debate these GÇô I would be very interested to hear the thoughts of both shield and armour tankers.
1. Increase repair rate, especially at the basic level. I would suggest 4, 7, and 10 HP/s for the repair modules. This is a huge increase, but I think itGÇÖs needed to make repair modules effective. It also has the effect of making them have a noticeable effect for newbies.
2. Change the mobility penalty on the armour plates. ItGÇÖs very significant at the moment, especially for complex plates, which leads to complex plates being rarely used. A good idea would be to change the speed penalty to a stamina penalty, so it isnGÇÖt as harsh, but still impedes the mobility slightly. Also, reduce the penalty, so itGÇÖs something like 2%, 4%, and 6%. This would let complex plates actually be used. This isn't necessary if armour is buffed much - this would be a notable difference between shields and armour, the mobility vs HP tradeoff. It's important to maintain that difference and not make them too similar.
3. Increase the HP armour plates give to be in line with shields GÇô 65, 110, and 175. Again, this would make complex plates used. Not precise values, just to show the basic idea - the basic plate might need to be tweaked to keep the progression balanced. Kitten Empress suggested a good set of numbers here, which I have put in the 'Notable Feedback' section at the end of my post.
4. Change the bonuses on the armour suits to be something that actually fits an armour suit. The amarr suit has a good example of this - a repair bonus (though this is on the logistics suit, and it's the assault suits that needs these). An armour rep bonus would be good on a Gallente suit, for example, and a plate bonus for an Amarr suit.
5. Increase the base speed of armour tanking suits, improving the outcome when the plates are added. This encourages shield tanking on armour suits as well, though, so this on its own isn't sufficient. Credit to BL4CKST4R for the suggestion. This works best thematically with (overused example, but Gallente are the main armour tankers) Gallente, because of their short range gear, they need to get into range quicker.
6. Increase the delay before recharge on shields. This would emphasise the constant nature of armour repairers, and make it more significant, as well as helping to balance between the regeneration rates.

We'll be addressing armor tanking with multiple updates going forward:
- New armor modules will be released with the Uprising 1.2 patch:
- Ferroscale plates (smaller HP buff but no speed penalty)
- Reactive plates (small HP buff and minor repair rate buff - plates that heal themselves! )
- We'll be reducing the movement speed penalty slightly on armor plates in a future hot-fix.
- Giving proper racial bonuses! The reason the Gallente don't get (the very obvious) bonus to movement speed when armor tanking at the moment is because we use a tag system to confer bonuses to items and currently there is no way to exclude an item from getting a bonus. The only way to do this would be to tag EVERYTHING in the game that isn't the Gallente suit with a tag, which is error-prone and likely to ensure we unintentionally screw up some unrelated skill at some point. This will be corrected as soon as is feasible.

I've seen a couple posts that say 'a few weeks' now... So probably sometime mid July.

- Giving proper racial bonuses! The reason the Gallente don't get (the very obvious) bonus to movement speed when armor tanking at the moment is because we use a tag system to confer bonuses to items and currently there is no way to exclude an item from getting a bonus. The only way to do this would be to tag EVERYTHING in the game that isn't the Gallente suit with a tag, which is error-prone and likely to ensure we unintentionally screw up some unrelated skill at some point. This will be corrected as soon as is feasible.

We'll be addressing armor tanking with multiple updates going forward:
- New armor modules will be released with the Uprising 1.2 patch:
- Ferroscale plates (smaller HP buff but no speed penalty)
- Reactive plates (small HP buff and minor repair rate buff - plates that heal themselves! )
- We'll be reducing the movement speed penalty slightly on armor plates in a future hot-fix.
- Giving proper racial bonuses! The reason the Gallente don't get (the very obvious) bonus to movement speed when armor tanking at the moment is because we use a tag system to confer bonuses to items and currently there is no way to exclude an item from getting a bonus. The only way to do this would be to tag EVERYTHING in the game that isn't the Gallente suit with a tag, which is error-prone and likely to ensure we unintentionally screw up some unrelated skill at some point. This will be corrected as soon as is feasible.

All suit comparisons are done using Complex shield extenders, and enhanced armor plates with the assumption ferroscale complex will be the same as enhanced, it could be lower but the different in EHP between suits will be the same as if it was complex.

So I did some number crunching with a Logistics Caldari and Gallente, actually all of the suits except scouts, and assuming the ferroscale at Complex level is EXACTLY the same as an Enhanced armor plate just without the speed penalty, 87 HP 20 CPU/ 6 PG, I got some very promising numbers. I took a Gallente Logistics and a Caldari logistics WITH the 25% shield bonus active, and the Gallente logistics came out with 1033 EHP while the Caldari logistics came out with 1174 EHP, this was using ALL slots for defense modules. I think this is really, really great this is balanced very well, Sort of ill explain why later, the reason this is balanced is because although the Caldari has 130 more EHP, the Gallente has CPU/PG to spare for equipment and the Gallente logistics has 1 more equipment slot, so they sacrifice that extra slot of defense for an equipment; the Caldari logistics ignores this equipment slot for extra defense/damage, if I remove the Shield extender the Caldari has 1083 EHP and CPU/PG for a damage modifier, and/or for equipment slots.

Sort of: I think it is a little way to much for the Logistic Caldari and Gallente to have an EHP of over 1000 and of course all suits will receive a EHP increase between 100-200, but with the current damage on weapons people will be hard to kill, but of course without proper numbers to crunch this is all speculation and I could be wrong. One good thing about this speculation is that even if the numbers were lower, like the complex having the EHP of a basic armor module it would still keep the same balance as above which is great.

Sort of: The Amarr Assault and logistics ak.0 with these numbers comes out lower in EHP than the Caldari and Gallente, so the suit needs a buff, the Minmatar suits comes out lower in EHP than the Caldari and Gallente but this is expected because the Minmatar is the fastest so the trade off for speed/defense shines for them now.

Sort of: The Gallente and Caldari logistics suits come out on top, EHP wise, versus their assault variants. The Gallente and Caldari assault suits both come out a little lower than the Logistics suit variant. This is not true for the Amarr Logistics/Assault and the Minmatar Logistics/Assault, so I propose a buff to the Amarr Assault/Logistics suits in EHP, or an extra High/Low slot, and a nerf to the Gallente and Caldari logistics suits in EHP immediately after/or with the deployment of Uprising 1.2 this will balance all of the suits

Sort of: All suits NEED to get a passive armor repair rate, to balance out the total repair rate of all suits for example the Caldari repair the most shield at the fastest rate, Minmatar second, Amarr third, and Gallente last; so the armor repair rate should be inverse to this putting the Gallente as the fastest and the Caldari as the slowest. This will also help mitigate the fact that armor tanking suits will still be disadvantaged when it comes to repping, since shield tanks will still be able to out tank armor tanks in terms of shield regeneration because of how fast it recharges with no investment, while a armor tank who wants to stay active in battle would need to find a logistic with a repair tool, a triage nanohive, or sacrifice their HP for armor repping thus losing the overall balance. Or a quick and dirty option is to reverse the shield repping to armor for the Gallente and Amarr and adding a small shield repair bonus to them, and a small armor repair bonus to Minmatar and Gallente.

P.S: I ran a total defense fit on the heavy suit, using this and it came out at an outstanding 1371 EHP, this is 300~ EHP above any suit I can make with the same optimization using ferroscale with basic armor module stats, this is great for the heavies you guys should be excited for this!

One more thing, please make sure the ferroscale plates are not higher in CPU/PG than the shield modules, this will severely limit the new possibilities of suit building that these plates will bring and put the shield tanks as the most diverse class yet again, also if everything I said is correct about the ferroscales buff weapon damage by the average ratio of EHP increase across the board. Also have the Reactive plates use both armor repair and armor plating skills, or armor repair skill only, so people still have to spec into armor repping to use these.

1371 EHP for a heavy? that's pretty bad by comparison. why?

in short, the basic heavy suit by design has 800 EHP. having an increase of 500 ehp sounds like alot but, when compared to other classes having 1000EHP the extra 300 is not appealing.

how so?

a shield tanking caldari with an EHP of 1000, using and AR vs. a heavy with 1400~ EHP and an HMG. sounds like the heavy has an advantage, right? think again. that caldari is 1000 EHP of high mobility, maneuverability, and evasiveness.

the heavy suits slow turn speed and movement, in addition to the low accuracy, damage (in general but especially against shields) and recoil of the hmg means the heavy gets out classed.

when you factor in head shots that extra 300~400 EHP the heavy gets doesnt mean anything. so, not only is the suit comparably harder to hit, with the hmg, but now it requires almost as many bullets as another heavy.


now when you factor in that the other suits can use cover more effectively than a heavy, and chip away that extra 300 EHP is not very appealing.

what heavies really need is resistance to damage taken, supplemented with a limited increase in EHP.

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=81725

We'll be addressing armor tanking with multiple updates going forward:
- New armor modules will be released with the Uprising 1.2 patch:
- Ferroscale plates (smaller HP buff but no speed penalty)
- Reactive plates (small HP buff and minor repair rate buff - plates that heal themselves! )
- We'll be reducing the movement speed penalty slightly on armor plates in a future hot-fix.
- Giving proper racial bonuses! The reason the Gallente don't get (the very obvious) bonus to movement speed when armor tanking at the moment is because we use a tag system to confer bonuses to items and currently there is no way to exclude an item from getting a bonus. The only way to do this would be to tag EVERYTHING in the game that isn't the Gallente suit with a tag, which is error-prone and likely to ensure we unintentionally screw up some unrelated skill at some point. This will be corrected as soon as is feasible.

What he said.
In EVE larger sig means you're easier to hit.

what heavies really need is resistance to damage taken, supplemented with a limited increase in EHP.

Can you confirm whether the Ferroscale and the Reactive Plates will be available for vehicles or dropsuits or both?

We've considered this, but the problem is that right now there is no good feedback for damage resistance in the game. Adding this without all the necessary UI improvements would likely just end up with the majority of players thinking their weapons suck instead of understanding they're just less effective against certain targets. The current target intel is a very barebones implementation. It needs to be a lot better.

We've considered this, but the problem is that right now there is no good feedback for damage resistance in the game. Adding this without all the necessary UI improvements would likely just end up with the majority of players thinking their weapons suck instead of understanding they're just less effective against certain targets. The current target intel is a very barebones implementation. It needs to be a lot better.

We'll be addressing armor tanking with multiple updates going forward:
- New armor modules will be released with the Uprising 1.2 patch:
- Ferroscale plates (smaller HP buff but no speed penalty)
- Reactive plates (small HP buff and minor repair rate buff - plates that heal themselves! )
- We'll be reducing the movement speed penalty slightly on armor plates in a future hot-fix.
- Giving proper racial bonuses! The reason the Gallente don't get (the very obvious) bonus to movement speed when armor tanking at the moment is because we use a tag system to confer bonuses to items and currently there is no way to exclude an item from getting a bonus. The only way to do this would be to tag EVERYTHING in the game that isn't the Gallente suit with a tag, which is error-prone and likely to ensure we unintentionally screw up some unrelated skill at some point. This will be corrected as soon as is feasible.

You're able to fit a basic/militia repairer and that will solve that problem instantly.

The problem is that at the higher levels, where you get about 12.5 HP/s if you have a decent buffer, shield regen is over twice as fast.
Also, the Caldari Logistics automatically self-repairs armour.

I agree with boosting the armour repairers, and you're quite right in saying that they're weak (an questionable) at the lower levels. Despite getting 300 or so armour (and notably shield suits at the same tier can break 400) it takes upwards of two minutes to repair that with the basic or enhanced repairers.
At the high end, it's better, but they're still outpaced and it takes a while.

Let's take an example.

You have an armour suit with two basic plates and a complex repairer. You have 340 armour HP, being repaired at 5 HP/s.
This will take 68 seconds, over a minute, to recharge. You are also slowed down by about 6%.
Alternatively, you could have a shield suit. With three extenders, you get 408 shield HP. You are not slowed down. You have a small delay before recharge, about 4 seconds, but you recharge at 25 HP/s. With the shield delay added on, this takes 20 seconds to recharge.

The armour suit in this example has less HP, is slower, and regenerates slower, for the small advantage of having 'constant repair'. In the time it takes for shields to start regenerating, that's worth a mere 20 HP.

We'll be addressing armor tanking with multiple updates going forward:
- New armor modules will be released with the Uprising 1.2 patch:
- Ferroscale plates (smaller HP buff but no speed penalty)
- Reactive plates (small HP buff and minor repair rate buff - plates that heal themselves! )
- We'll be reducing the movement speed penalty slightly on armor plates in a future hot-fix.
- Giving proper racial bonuses! The reason the Gallente don't get (the very obvious) bonus to movement speed when armor tanking at the moment is because we use a tag system to confer bonuses to items and currently there is no way to exclude an item from getting a bonus. The only way to do this would be to tag EVERYTHING in the game that isn't the Gallente suit with a tag, which is error-prone and likely to ensure we unintentionally screw up some unrelated skill at some point. This will be corrected as soon as is feasible.

We've considered this, but the problem is that right now there is no good feedback for damage resistance in the game. Adding this without all the necessary UI improvements would likely just end up with the majority of players thinking their weapons suck instead of understanding they're just less effective against certain targets. The current target intel is a very barebones implementation. It needs to be a lot better.

so you guys aren't going to buff the repair modules? So like won't self repairing plates be better?

Complex armor reps should heal 10hp/sec not 5
put a stacking thing on them so people don't put 4 on and get 40 hp/sec

So far the OP has given a nearly flawless description of shield vs armor in the 3 pages.

1. At first I thought that 25 HP constant regen was a little too much but then I remembered this: Caldari Assault suit with cpu upgrade, 2 complex regulators, and 1 complex shield recharger. Base Armor rep of 4, 7, and 10 is acceptable.

2. Stamina penalty means nothing once you're already engaging an enemy. Have it be 2%, 4%, and 6% movement penalty.

OR

3. Increase plate bonus according to the suggestion of 65, 97, and 130.

4. Mandatory.

5. Not necessary, Gallente suits were actually supposed to be initially slower for having higher base armor :P

6. No, doing this will make the overall gameplay seem a little frustrating on all suits for having to back away from combat too long.

We'll be addressing armor tanking with multiple updates going forward:
- New armor modules will be released with the Uprising 1.2 patch:
- Ferroscale plates (smaller HP buff but no speed penalty)
- Reactive plates (small HP buff and minor repair rate buff - plates that heal themselves! )
- We'll be reducing the movement speed penalty slightly on armor plates in a future hot-fix.
- Giving proper racial bonuses! The reason the Gallente don't get (the very obvious) bonus to movement speed when armor tanking at the moment is because we use a tag system to confer bonuses to items and currently there is no way to exclude an item from getting a bonus. The only way to do this would be to tag EVERYTHING in the game that isn't the Gallente suit with a tag, which is error-prone and likely to ensure we unintentionally screw up some unrelated skill at some point. This will be corrected as soon as is feasible.

damage mods aren't AS good as you think. Most good players use shield extenders and skip damage mods entirely. Defense in DUST is worth more than a few more DPS unless you're talking about some very specific weapons.

After i play my heavy alt more and skill him up we can talk. I can already say that HMG + Militia Heavy suit often gets wtfpwned by newbie suits. the EHP is laughably low.

the primary concern about heavies is that approaching 1300 HP requires at least 2 complex plates and a crippling speed penalty. Further, without completely maxing out both armor and the shield upgrade skill the base health of a heavy is less than a tanked caldari medium suit.

Before anyone says defensive roles, that's a s**tty copout. sentinels are defensive. Heavies are heavy. Further, the speed penalty is crippling when the defender is so pathetically easily outflanked.

until CCP does 64v64 or higher matches people do not have the manpower to park 4 or more fatties on a cap point.

In ambush fatties are sitting ducks.

to a lesser extent so are gallente and amarr medium/assault suits.

Ask any tactical coordinator in the USMC:

Mobility kills.

I find it particularly depressing that we have shields being generally superior (though not as drastically superior) in EvE as well for very similar reasons.

Off-topic stuff

Laurent - Post noted, fantastic post. I'll type up a lengthy reply shortly.

Stuff

^^since the resistance mechanic is already in the game and all players are familiar with it, it won't be hard to implement.

anyone who has used an smg against a fully shielded opponent or a scrambler rifle against armor knows that their weapon seems to 'burn through' either shields or armor, and then does noticeably less damage to its counter part. that is resistance. applying moodules that upgrade resistances could be the key to balancing shield verses armor.

if armor mods gave some kind of resistance to damage to armor then it could offset the movement penalty.


p.s. with regards your comment about flux nades not being lethal. i think flux inaddition to removing shield should do some kind of armor damage. shields recover way to fast, their must be a reward for using them.

To CCP_Remnant, please do share the numbers you have in mind for the new modules, and the penalty tweaks. Those things need to be out to the community as soon as possible. It will allow discussions and maybe avoid you guys some issues afterwards.

In my opinion, ferroscale plates, those with no penalty should give less HP than a shield extender of the same tier. Especially if at some point shield extenders get a penalty like many suggests they should have.

Energized plating will probably be the type of modules you use to fill a hole in your fit lol.

playing with resists is a dangerous thing.

Giving say a base 6% per level of heavy suit skill to resists would effectively give an unmodded heavy the rough equivalent of 1300 HP without adding any sort of plates. More Vs. lasers.

It's a very delicate balance point and native resists can absolutely goatfuck the equation if they are done wrong.

I think having 1600 HP heavies is slightly unnecessary without cranking plates in all slots. with your idea they would only need 2. plus the HMG isn't a marshmallow gun anymore. it eats people alive.

After some contemplation I'd like to point out that we can't balance armor too well. The OP suggestions are excellent and the inclusion of any one or two of them would fix armor tanking. As our dear Dev mentioned earlier - a few of these things will be going in and they look to solve many problems. However - there is one problem it may inadvertently create that I would like to point out.

That is the potential of a damage disparity.

The one sacrifice shield tankers must make is the damage mod. Damage mods are very powerful. If armor tanking becomes just as viable as shield tanking stand alone - then armor tankers will be able to HP up and run a set of damage mods. Shield tankers will not be able to HP up and run damage mods. They will only be able to HP up more with the use of regulators and speed up with the various mobility mods. Armor tankers will have that option as well however giving the shield tanker a bit less in the way of options.

So either armor gets equal parity to shield stand-alone plus has some of their options removed or its not quite as good as shield.

I'm Amarr so I'm tanking mix tanking - I just wonder if the shield tankers might find themselves a bit hard up in comparison to what they can do once armor gets up to where it should be.

Regardless I love the changes listed. They are good needed steps forward.

right now these shield tankers make my heavy look like a clown that performs barmitzfa's and birthday parties and doesn't get tips.

stuff

nicely posted laurent.

I agree with your point of armor vs. shield regen to a point. I think base regen on the rep modules needs to be higher, as there is nothing stopping shield users from dropping two regulators in the lows for faster recharging, and dropping one or two shield regen rate boosts in the highs while still maintaining a rather beefy tank.

so we can afford some more wiggle room there, because shield extenders are not the be-all end-all of shield tanking. they are merely the most user-friendly.

i know you love long posts, so i'll make this short.
armor plates right now give a movement penalty. if inaddition to the movement penalty a resistance to damage taken to armor only was added it would offset the lower mobility, and recharge/recover rate.

since most weapons now are more effective against armor than shields it will help offset the deficiency.

this is meant to compensate not empower.

shield tankers get rapid recharge, armor gets resistance.

ideally with head shots (skill) it wont make a difference.



(P.S. the blank 30% resistance for the heavy suit is just to offset its low mobility. however, the exact details are mentioned on my thread. this is not the thread for this. go here for info on heavies and resistance >>>> https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=81725)