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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
D legendary hero
One-Armed Bandits Unclaimed.
127
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Posted - 2013.06.07 09:57:00 -
[301] - Quote
^^this
it was fun when flux still insttant killed people who were mid air...lolol i know i knwo that was actually OP. but at least it stopped bunny hopping. |
Cass Barr
Red Star. EoN.
144
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Posted - 2013.06.07 11:04:00 -
[302] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Cass Barr wrote:So long as insta-kill contact Locus grenades exist (and do 600 damage to armor), armor will be inferior to shields. I would have added this in but I'm not sure how bad it'll get, yet. I suspect that when the isk ones come in things will be very very bad. I'd rather not judge until I've actually seen the effect though. EDIT: The M2 contacts do 900, I believe.
I've not seen them in pub matches yet, only PC a couple times. Somewhat amusingly, the existing issues with armor tanking and, consequently, the relative rarity of primary armor tankers may serve to keep their use deflated. (Thanks, murder taxis! ) Still, when I have run into them they were pretty much an IWIN button. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
842
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Posted - 2013.06.07 11:18:00 -
[303] - Quote
Cass Barr wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Cass Barr wrote:So long as insta-kill contact Locus grenades exist (and do 600 damage to armor), armor will be inferior to shields. I would have added this in but I'm not sure how bad it'll get, yet. I suspect that when the isk ones come in things will be very very bad. I'd rather not judge until I've actually seen the effect though. EDIT: The M2 contacts do 900, I believe. I've not seen them in pub matches yet, only PC a couple times. Somewhat amusingly, the existing issues with armor tanking and, consequently, the relative rarity of primary armor tankers may serve to keep their use deflated. (Thanks, murder taxis! ) Still, when I have run into them they were pretty much an IWIN button.
Agreed. The couple of times I have run into them have been a horrible experience - I had one proto shield guy down into deep armour, and I rounded a corner to get him but *splat* instant kill from a contact grenade. I was at full health. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
169
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Posted - 2013.06.07 22:54:00 -
[304] - Quote
I need to get 1.9M sp before 1.2 patch, challenge accepted. 50k/1.9M as of this post lol. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention
1103
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Posted - 2013.06.07 23:41:00 -
[305] - Quote
What testing methods are you guys going to be using for the Contacts? I'll get some rolling as well (I'm assuming there's a non-AUR version which can be picked up?) and post results.
Cheers, Cross |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
170
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Posted - 2013.06.07 23:42:00 -
[306] - Quote
Contacts seem to do a lot more damage than suggested, specially with the explosive % increase against armor. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
170
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Posted - 2013.06.07 23:50:00 -
[307] - Quote
CCP Remnant please give us the stats of the new plates :( |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention
1103
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Posted - 2013.06.07 23:55:00 -
[308] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Contacts seem to do a lot more damage than suggested, specially with the explosive % increase against armor.
I wonder how their direct and splash interact with the extra damage dealt due to head shots and back shots. Combined with the presumed bonus damage to armor this could account for the behavior we're seeing (and really be a factor in overall balance). |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
170
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 00:06:00 -
[309] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Contacts seem to do a lot more damage than suggested, specially with the explosive % increase against armor. I wonder how their direct and splash interact with the extra damage dealt due to head shots and back shots. Combined with the presumed bonus damage to armor this could account for the behavior we're seeing (and really be a factor in overall balance).
I think they should be left alone until the new plates come out and see how we hold out against them, if they can still one shot us then they are definately OP. I can understand the PROTO contact one shotting us, specially because of the SP it costs to get them, but not the fused one specially without a advanced or basic variant and a flux variant. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention
1104
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Posted - 2013.06.08 01:23:00 -
[310] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Cross Atu wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Contacts seem to do a lot more damage than suggested, specially with the explosive % increase against armor. I wonder how their direct and splash interact with the extra damage dealt due to head shots and back shots. Combined with the presumed bonus damage to armor this could account for the behavior we're seeing (and really be a factor in overall balance). I think they should be left alone until the new plates come out and see how we hold out against them, if they can still one shot us then they are definately OP. I can understand the PROTO contact one shotting us, specially because of the SP it costs to get them, but not the fused one specially without a advanced or basic variant and a flux variant. I agree I wouldn't change them yet until we see the new armor mods (and skills if any). OP or not however I would very much like to know how the damage is applied especially when it comes to AoE damage being done and efficiency for things like headshots etc. Also the methods used to factor in that extra damage against armor (and what % buff that is, since nades are harder to test in game).
One thing I have seen from theory crafting in another thread (and anecdotally supported by my own testing in game) is that currently contact nades are more deadly than the MD which seems to be out of line but that's also somewhat it's own issue.
Cheers, Cross |
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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
170
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Posted - 2013.06.08 01:57:00 -
[311] - Quote
Highly doubt we would get some solid numbers, CCP doesn't love numbers as much as I do >.<, my suggestion is that you get a friend go to FW join opposite sides and test it out. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
851
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Posted - 2013.06.08 08:32:00 -
[312] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Highly doubt we would get some solid numbers, CCP doesn't love numbers as much as I do >.<, my suggestion is that you get a friend go to FW join opposite sides and test it out.
I'm going to see if I can do this with a corp-mate later. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention
1108
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 14:46:00 -
[313] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Highly doubt we would get some solid numbers, CCP doesn't love numbers as much as I do >.<, my suggestion is that you get a friend go to FW join opposite sides and test it out. I'm going to see if I can do this with a corp-mate later. I would be very interested in your results. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
172
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Posted - 2013.06.08 20:43:00 -
[314] - Quote
bump |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
854
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:22:00 -
[315] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Highly doubt we would get some solid numbers, CCP doesn't love numbers as much as I do >.<, my suggestion is that you get a friend go to FW join opposite sides and test it out. I'm going to see if I can do this with a corp-mate later. I would be very interested in your results.
Right. Using a prototype Gallente logistics suit with 493 armour, 90 shields, I can confirm that a direct hit from a fused locus grenade, not the M2 contact, will one shot me. At approximately 1 metre away, they will take me down to approximately 100 armour. Using the M2 contact, it's 1 shotting at about a metre away. I didn't test further than that on the protosuit because it was expensive, and the results were fairly conclusive.
EDIT: The advanced variant, with about 400 armour, was one shotted. At 1 metre, it got OHKO'd about half the time, otherwise leaving it with a sliver of armour. M2 contacts wrecked it.
Using an advanced Minmatar medium frame with 382 shields and 90 armour, a direct hit from a fused locus grenade was survivable at low shields, generally sub 100, but never breaking into armour. 1 metre away it was 200, 250 shields generally The M2 variant 1 shotted directly, and at 1 metre took the shields down to practically zero or high armour.
This wasn't a completely fair test, because I was comparing an advanced suit to a prototype suit, but that was in armour's favour and it STILL came out inferior.
This is a depressing result, and I'm not looking forward to isk contact grenades. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
172
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:26:00 -
[316] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Highly doubt we would get some solid numbers, CCP doesn't love numbers as much as I do >.<, my suggestion is that you get a friend go to FW join opposite sides and test it out. I'm going to see if I can do this with a corp-mate later. I would be very interested in your results. Right. Using a prototype Gallente logistics suit with 493 armour, 90 shields, I can confirm that a direct hit from a fused locus grenade, not the M2 contact, will one shot me. At approximately 1 metre away, they will take me down to approximately 100 armour. Using the M2 contact, it's 1 shotting at about a metre away. I didn't test further than that on the protosuit because it was expensive, and the results were fairly conclusive. EDIT: The advanced variant, with about 400 armour, was one shotted. At 1 metre, it got OHKO'd about half the time, otherwise leaving it with a sliver of armour. M2 contacts wrecked it. Using an advanced Minmatar medium frame with 382 shields and 90 armour, a direct hit from a fused locus grenade was survivable at low shields, generally sub 100, but never breaking into armour. 1 metre away it was 200, 250 shields generally The M2 variant 1 shotted directly, and at 1 metre took the shields down to practically zero or high armour. This wasn't a completely fair test, because I was comparing an advanced suit to a prototype suit, but that was in armour's favour and it STILL came out inferior. This is a depressing result, and I'm not looking forward to isk contact grenades.
Pretty interesting data, could you do the same tests with a militia heavy suit, if you can. That would be close to the level of EHP we would have when the new modules come out, and thus the outcome of how we fare against them.
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Ser Chard
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
15
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Posted - 2013.06.09 02:38:00 -
[317] - Quote
What if they introduced contact flux nades? I think the contact principle benefits flux more than regular nades anyway, as if you use flux nades in a direct conflict their efficacy is reduced because you'll already have damaged their shields by the time it detonates.
I don't like flux nades as is, but I may consider them if we had contact flux nades.
A lot of this armor UP vs nades stems from the fact that far more people carry basic nades. If they buffed flux nades somehow and encouraged people to use them, maybe that hubbub would simmer down some. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
172
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 10:00:00 -
[318] - Quote
Flux grenades aren't used often because, they cannot kill, cannot damage armor, and sometimes fall behind locus grenades in effectiveness. And the reason we say that Grenades are OP vs armor, is because currently a good shot from a grenade can wipe our shields and 1/3+ or our armor, if we had no armor on it is a OHKO. Shields don't have to worry about this with flux grenades since their armor cannot be damage, and locus grenades don't do much damage vs shields. |
D legendary hero
One-Armed Bandits Unclaimed.
142
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Posted - 2013.06.09 11:25:00 -
[319] - Quote
Flux grenades to balance their inability to kill in chromosome had good range. they would blast a radius up to 9m. i think the basic was 7.2
now they are kinda pointless having only the same radius as a regular grenade... might as well through a frag. |
Kitten Empress
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
418
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 20:40:00 -
[320] - Quote
Contact grenades. My ultimate enemy as a Gallente. |
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Laurent Cazaderon
What The French CRONOS.
1541
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 13:14:00 -
[321] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Laurent Cazaderon wrote:
1) Bigger hitbox i dont dislike but i'm pretty sure it's a massive pain to code. And i dont see it happening to be honest. But still, everything has a downside. The point being shield having a smaller downside than armor as it gives, for equivalent tier less HP amount.
Agreed.
Regarding the signature malus on shield. You cant rule it out because the current system isnt perfect. You say most dots come from people spotting the enemy. Yes, most. Not all. And bigger signature could go with longer display on the tacnet, or being spotted from a longer distance. Plenty of choices there.
Most, being the vast, vast majority, like over 90%. It depends on how scanning evolves tbh.
2/3) There i feel you misunderstood me. Like a lot. The whole point, the main idea of my previous reply is to enhance the efficiency of armor oriented suits to use armor modules. And same goes with shield.
Perhaps I did. I don't think racial bonuses are the way to go for it though - perhaps a role bonus would be better?
Regarding base HP of the plates. I merely use a roughly x2 multiplier compared to what shield module gives you at the same tier. So yes, i lowered the std one so it would suit that idea.
I don't really like doing that, because the lower tiered plates would really start to suck when you put on a bigger speed penalty as well. And yes, I know it's mitigated by the bonuses you propose, but remember at the basic level people don't have that SP to invest.
And regarding the penalty, this suggestion only applies with the other suggestion to add specific bonuses to the basic frame skills depending on the race. (copy pasting here)
- Gallente racial bonus : 10% reduction to armor penalties per level. (You would reach 6% penalty for a complex plate.) - Amarr racial bonus : 5% reduction to armor penalties per level and 5% reduction to heat build up per level (9% penalty)
So in the end, gallente, the most armor oriented suit gets a way lower penalty that it does now (6% for complex) and with more base HP. 6% penalty for 148 HP. How does that make armor tanking worse ?
It makes it worse because you -absolutely must- spec the skills to all 5 before you get to that point. It's not overall worse if you can do that, though.
Regarding ferroplates now. when i said they shouldnt give much armor, it was in the same idea. If a complex ferroscale gives 90 HP without any kind of penalty ? What do you think shield tanker will do ? Both shield and armor tank. And in my opinion, buffing HP with a defense type that isnt originally the suits purpose should either bring you a very limited advantage, or come with a bigger penalty than the specialized suit. eg, minmatar assault using plates. It happens often in EVE.
This is true, but that then effectively nerfs armour tankers because you don't want shield tankers to use it too. You can't balance a module to make it ineffective because otherwise other people will use it. We also don't have that kind of thinking with shield tanking, and it shows. Shield tanked Gallente dropsuits are already on the battlefield.
So yeah, movement penalty would be higher, but only for the race who wouldnt get a penalty reduction through one of their skill bonuses. Is it more clear now ? And again, i also think movement penalty shouldnt impact base movement speed as you cant buff it back. I must have missed your comment on base movement speed. That makes things make a lot more sense.
You mention something about low level tanking being awfull. yes it is. i'll admit it tend to think at high levels coz that's ultimately where you will end up. But the SP investment isnt that high as you WILL skill into suits pretty quickly, especially when knowing that reaching level 3 only cost an overall 273600 SP. Which would already give 30% penalty reduction. Aka 6% penalty for enhanced plates using a gallente suit. If this only affects spring and not base movement anymore, then you're way better off than what you get now.
I think a better solution to this would be using role bonuses to mitigate the armour penalties instead. You could also solve the ferroscale issue if you want to make armour tanking reliant on bonuses by bonusing the ferroscale HP. I don't agree with having to use suit bonuses to make a tank type worth using, because in this case it's only applying to one kind of tank. Shield tankers still don't have to do that, making shield tanking viable on any suit.
To be continued.
Answers bolded inside the quote.
Thus why i root for adding a penalty to shield tanking. Either be it signature radius or bigger hitbox if doable. And the same way you'd get better at using armor through skilling basic skills. The bonuses i suggest would be linked to the basic frames skills. First skills chose by many players and easily trained to level 3. At which point my number reach the current penalty number or even less.
It makes sense in my opinion that a suit build to use armors uses it better. You mention shield tanked gallente. But this is only due to armor being complete crap. I run logi gallente (assault is just dumb cpu\pg wise) and i never intended to use 3 extenders like i do now. If armor was better and using extra shield gave me a penalty. i wouldnt.
That's also the purpose here. Trying to push players to not go for HP buff only modules.
As for the ferroscale plates, i'm trying to get CCP to share the numbers. |
Laurent Cazaderon
What The French CRONOS.
1541
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 13:19:00 -
[322] - Quote
Regarding the contact nade debate. they shouldnt exist. Ever. Not in any FPS. Cook your nades for christ sake...
Any fused grenade should be replaced by M1 with no skill requirement so people who bought pack dont go mad. And any other contact nade taken off the market and reimbursed to their owners.
Aim at feet iwin button = bad gameplay |
Cass Barr
Red Star. EoN.
186
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Posted - 2013.06.11 06:06:00 -
[323] - Quote
Bump. This thread won't die until fixes are made or real answers are given. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
875
|
Posted - 2013.06.11 06:27:00 -
[324] - Quote
Cass Barr wrote:Bump. This thread won't die until fixes are made or real answers are given.
Unfortunately I doubt proper answers will be given here tbh. CCP Remnant's post indicates that they probably missed fixing the core issues with armour tanking, and instead putting out new, shiny looking modules that'll be interesting for about a week before people figure out the new FotM. I'll probably be writing another thread on this in the future. |
D legendary hero
One-Armed Bandits Unclaimed.
148
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Posted - 2013.06.11 07:38:00 -
[325] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:Regarding the contact nade debate. they shouldnt exist. Ever. Not in any FPS. Cook your nades for christ sake...
Any fused grenade should be replaced by M1 with no skill requirement so people who bought pack dont go mad. And any other contact nade taken off the market and reimbursed to their owners.
Aim at feet iwin button = bad gameplay
they should just nerf its damage or range or both, and make it advanced.
if it did only 150 or 100 hp damage at a 1-2m blast radius (like a flaylock pistol), it would be like getting meleed a little farther away. plus you can toss them into groups of peeople before you spray with your OP AR so noobs will still be happy, and good players wont be instantly killed and will have a chance to dodge them.
edit: this is related to shield verses armor, because 150hp wil just be enough to take off your shield but armor tankers will survive the grenade and still have additional armor to spare |
Cass Barr
Red Star. EoN.
187
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Posted - 2013.06.11 08:47:00 -
[326] - Quote
Yeah died three times in one match to Fused grenades earlier. Twice I was clearly going to win the engagement so the people threw them at me. Since I use an armor tanked suit, it was the very definition of an IWIN button. The third time I actually did kill the guy while still having about half my HP, right before he died he tossed one at my feet.
Seriously, fix this ******** bullshit CCP, this is beyond a doubt the most dumbass thing I have ever seen in an FPS since the original Doom. WHAT IDIOT THOUGHT THIS WAS A GOOD IDEA?
/rage off |
Kitten Empress
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
447
|
Posted - 2013.06.11 20:04:00 -
[327] - Quote
bump https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86548 CCP are hopeless. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
880
|
Posted - 2013.06.11 20:04:00 -
[328] - Quote
New plates confirmed to be a failure. |
D legendary hero
One-Armed Bandits Unclaimed.
151
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Posted - 2013.06.11 20:25:00 -
[329] - Quote
^^ *pours vodka all over self, light cigarette* |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
172
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Posted - 2013.06.11 21:16:00 -
[330] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:
Non-shield tank mods in midslots: Damage modifiers (Very effective, but can still be fitted on shields) Myofibril Stimulants (lol)
Non-armour tank mods in lowslots: Shield Regulators (Can be used to improve shield tank with the free slots!) Kinetic Catalyzers (Mobility gap) Cardiac Regulators (Mobility gap) Precision/Scan Strength Enhancers Scan Range Amplifiers Profile Dampeners CPU Enhancers PG Upgrades Codebreakers
There seems to be a bit of a disparity here, hrm?
They could implement a High/Medium/Low Slot system, adjust the available PG/CPU for dropsuits to be able to accommodate more Modules, and change the module placement according to this:
High Slot Modules: (for shield and stamina) Shield Extenders Shield Rechargers Shield Regulators Myofibril Stimulants Cardiac Regulators
Medium Slot Modules: (for dropsuit versatility enhancements) Damage Modifiers Codebreakers Precision Scan Enhancers Range Amplifiers Active Scanners CPU Enhancers PG Enhancers
Low Slot Modules: (for armor, movement speed, and profile dampening) Armor Plates Armor Repairers Ferroscale Plates Reactive Plates Kinetic Catalyzers Profile Dampeners |
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