DUST Search - [Feedback] Shield > Armour GÇô Detailed Explanation

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

alten hilt wrote:

Lore friendly bonuses from the EVE universe (my understanding)
Minmatar: Speed and Shield bonuses (fastest)
Caldari: Shield and range bonuses (Shield Tankiest)
Gallente: Armor and Shield bonuses (balanced tank and speed)
Amarr: Armor and damage bonuses (armor tankiest)

Yeah, this would work generally.
I disagree with a couple though - Gallente are meant to be armour tankers. The only reason they might appear to be shield tankers as well is due to the tank type imbalance - it becomes more effective to shield tank them, though they're not intended for that purpose. I'd go for damage bonuses - Gallente are meant to be up-close gank types. I see you've assigned this to the Amarr - I'd instead recommend additional tank bonuses, as Amarr have a tendency to be extremely tanky.
That's up for debate though, and it's not like CCP are likely to implement this exactly (or at all) anyway.

alten hilt wrote:

STEP 3 Add mid-slot range modules (increased optimal, increased falloff). This would balance the many low slot utility modules. Honestly, I'm not sure about what type of modules these should be, but there need to be more high-slot utility modules. Having the damage and range modules in high slots would seem to be EVE appropriate. Caldari and Minmatar have inherently better range projection, but to maximize it they have to compromise their tank. Amarr and Gallente are known for their close range face melting, but have to compromise tank in order to increase speed.

Like tracking computers in EvE? I quite like this idea. It would help, but it might create new problems similar to sharpshooter with complex modules being better than the basics to the point where older characters can become completely untouchable to newer players by stacking range modules.
Amarr are actually quite good with their damage projection - thematically, range increases don't fit in with the Galente as much.
In EvE, damage modules are actually in the low slots (contributing to an armour/shield imbalance there, as well) but the better range modules are in the midslots.

This idea is a bit more meh than the others in the end. It brings back problems with sharpshooter, and it seems like a placeholder for other highslots modules.
Even so, there is a distinct lack of useful highslot modules other than shield and damage modules.

Thanks for the feedback - It was useful, and I'll update the OP(s) to reflect this.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)
alten hilt DUST University Ivy League 40	Posted - 2013.06.03 17:18:00 - [1] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I'm disappointed by the lack of feedback, particularly from shield tankers. Do I need a more provocative title? What about "LOL DUST SUX SHIELDS R SO GUD"? Shield tankers to busy pub stomping to care. Especially with the TACAR nerf around the corner they gotta get as many kills a possible. LOL, pub stomping they are! First. My thanks goes out to the OP. This is a serious problem that needs to be addressed. Your OP brilliantly lays out the issues. IMHO Speed tank is king! I've mentioned this in a previous feedback post, But due to the way DUST applies reverse acceleration penalties to fast rotational movement, it is impossible to hit fast moving targets at close range. Shield Tanking is currently better, not just because of the reasons you mentioned, but because you can only speed tank if you shield tank (or pure gank with damage modifiers). The best tank at the moment is a fast dropsuit, stacked with speed /endurance mods and some shield and damage mods. At 0 - 20 meters, you will literally strafe faster than the enemy can track with the mouse/right thumbstick. If you are engaged at 20 - 40 meters you still have the speed to sprint faster than a player can accurately track. This is compounded by the rotational penalties applied to medium and heavy suits, and any armor tank (armor plates reduce rotational speed). Also, neither the scrambler rifle nor the Flux grenade are significant counters to shield tanking. While dealing increased damage to shields, the scrambler rifle is incredibly difficult to hit with. Hit box detection, speed tank, lag, and rotational reverse acceleration, combined with the lower rate of fire mean that actually applying scrambler rifle damage is more difficult. DUST 514's lag compensation mechanism seems to work in favor of faster rate of fire weapons (more rounds down range in any given moment means more chances for the lag compensator to apply). Also, even though the Scrambler rifle does more damage to shields, it is still incredibly effective against armor, both dealing massive damage, and better hit probability due to the slower speed of armor tankers. Flux grenades are plagued with the same dsync and hit detection problems as Flaylocks and Mass Drivers. I can't tell you how many times I have dropped a Flux grenade directly on someone and they have not taken any shield damage. This is partially due to the speed tank. Speed tankers in scout suits can jump above the flux radius of damage. I have seen numerous people jump completely over the flux radius. As for the shield/armor balance, I submit the following ideas which I think synergize well together. STEP 1: What if shield extenders actually extended the dropsuit's hit box? Isn't that what a shield EXTENDER is actually doing...extending the shield? It would work something like this. If a shield extender is fitted, and the dropsuit's shield is active (not depleted) then the hitbox would be increased according to the penalty associated with the shield extender module. This penalty would increase the better the module and the penalty would stack the more modules fitted. When the shield depletes, the hitbox returns to its normal value until the shield begins to recharge. STEP 2: Move all shield moduels to high slots. Significantly lower shield recharge rates and increase shield recharge delay across the board. Add a base armor repair rate to dropsuits (like a built-in nanite repair capability). Then give all suits a bonus to their racial tanking ability that increases with the number of modules fit. Minmatar and Caldari get a bonus to shield extender amount, shield recharge rate and recharge delay. Gallente and Amarr get a bonus to armor amount, armor repair rate and reduction to movement penalty. These bonuses would have a base value if no appropriate modules were fit, but would increase proportionally with the number of modules. Lore friendly bonuses from the EVE universe (my understanding) Minmatar: Speed and Shield bonuses (fastest) Caldari: Shield and range bonuses (Shield Tankiest) Gallente: Armor and Shield bonuses (balanced tank and speed) Amarr: Armor and damage bonuses (armor tankiest) STEP 3 Add mid-slot range modules (increased optimal, increased falloff). This would balance the many low slot utility modules. Honestly, I'm not sure about what type of modules these should be, but there need to be more high-slot utility modules. Having the damage and range modules in high slots would seem to be EVE appropriate. Caldari and Minmatar have inherently better range projection, but to maximize it they have to compromise their tank. Amarr and Gallente are known for their close range face melting, but have to compromise tank in order to increase speed. These are my ideas.
alten hilt DUST University Ivy League 44	Posted - 2013.06.04 18:01:00 - [2] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: alten hilt wrote: Lore friendly bonuses from the EVE universe (my understanding) Minmatar: Speed and Shield bonuses (fastest) Caldari: Shield and range bonuses (Shield Tankiest) Gallente: Armor and Shield bonuses (balanced tank and speed) Amarr: Armor and damage bonuses (armor tankiest) Yeah, this would work generally. I disagree with a couple though - Gallente are meant to be armour tankers. The only reason they might appear to be shield tankers as well is due to the tank type imbalance - it becomes more effective to shield tank them, though they're not intended for that purpose. I'd go for damage bonuses - Gallente are meant to be up-close gank types. I see you've assigned this to the Amarr - I'd instead recommend additional tank bonuses, as Amarr have a tendency to be extremely tanky. That's up for debate though, and it's not like CCP are likely to implement this exactly (or at all) anyway. alten hilt wrote: STEP 3 Add mid-slot range modules (increased optimal, increased falloff). This would balance the many low slot utility modules. Honestly, I'm not sure about what type of modules these should be, but there need to be more high-slot utility modules. Having the damage and range modules in high slots would seem to be EVE appropriate. Caldari and Minmatar have inherently better range projection, but to maximize it they have to compromise their tank. Amarr and Gallente are known for their close range face melting, but have to compromise tank in order to increase speed. Like tracking computers in EvE? I quite like this idea. It would help, but it might create new problems similar to sharpshooter with complex modules being better than the basics to the point where older characters can become completely untouchable to newer players by stacking range modules. Amarr are actually quite good with their damage projection - thematically, range increases don't fit in with the Galente as much. In EvE, damage modules are actually in the low slots (contributing to an armour/shield imbalance there, as well) but the better range modules are in the midslots. This idea is a bit more meh than the others in the end. It brings back problems with sharpshooter, and it seems like a placeholder for other highslots modules. Even so, there is a distinct lack of useful highslot modules other than shield and damage modules. Thanks for the feedback - It was useful, and I'll update the OP(s) to reflect this. I've edited my original post to reflect your corrections. I meant to say that Gallente are Damage and Speed, and Amarr are Armor tank and Range. For whatever reason, I mixed up the bonuses in my head. So for primary bonuses, Minmatar would be fastest, Caldari would have best shields, Gallente would deal best damage, and Amarr best armor. For secondary bonuses, Minmatar would have shield, Caldari range, Gallente speed, and Amarr range. Also, the reason I chose modules to increase the optimal range and optimal falloff is to complement the way DUST 514 will eventually calculate bullet flight (not for the current system.) In the current system, a projectile has a hard-coded range. When a projectile passes this range it ceases to exist. What the Devs have stated they want to do is give weapons an optimal range and a falloff range. Within the optimal range, the bullet will deal max damage, after passing optimal, the projectile will continue to deal damage on a decreasing scale. After the projectile passes the max falloff range, it ceases to exist/apply damage. So in this new system, optimal range modules would slightly increase the optimal damage range (not increase total range), and the fall-off modules would decrease the falloff penalties (but not increase the total range). I'm looking for the forum post to back this up and will post when I find it.