|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1091
   |
Posted - 2013.06.06 16:19:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm going to jump right in building from the info stated in the opening posts (I've yet to read all 6 pages so forgive any repetition)
Suggestions
- CCP has stated there are new armor mods coming out, one type that will contain some degree of self rep and another that will have no movement penalty imposed. Presumably both of these will have lower HP values. Putting at least one, if not both, of these mods as high powered mods would improve armor tanking on balance by opening up more slots for use (as shield tanks already have). The best option would likely be the lower HP no movement penalty plates. EDIT: [CCP Remnant on these changes]
- Increased high power mod options - If there were more utility mods for high power slots it would introduce some greater degree of parity between the tanking methods, the most important aspects of this would be either mods that mitigate some of the shortfalls of armor or mods that provide a unique benefit unavailable outside of high slot use.
- Proper role bonuses - While the Amarr and Gal logi suits have reasonable role + racial buffs their armor tanking counterparts within the Assault and Heavy lines are lacking equal care. Providing role and racial skill buffs which lend uniqueness and benefit to racial tanking methods would go along way towards sustaining balance.
- Profile penalty for shield mods - Having shield extenders increase the "noise" of a suit raising its profile and thus highlighting it on TACNET could be another way to counter balance the value of shields without directly diminishing their current assets.
Concerns
- Maintaining value of support roles - Repair tools and some classes of nanohive are devoted to the maintenance and repair of armor. In improving the balance between armor and shield tanking it is essential that we not devalue the viability of these support equipment/roles.
- Maintaining diversity between armor vs shield tanks - The OPs already touch on this but I feel it bears reiteration. The goal of bringing parity should be finding diverse yet effective ways for both types of tanking, we do not want to diminish game diversity by having the same tanking method twice under different names.
- Maintaining diversity between racial variants - Not only is it important to provide equivalent but district advantages to armor and shield tanking it is equally important to do so for the racial suits. In part this will be attained so long as tank types are properly done however Amarr/Gal & Min/Cal should not be identical in function either or we're sacrificing game diversity. When balancing suit tank all stat elements not just EHP must be considered. Anything less than this (such as normalizing EHP across the boards on medium frames will create, rather than resolve, game wide imbalances.
- Base stats vs possible fittings - The value of base stats on any given frame is higher than the value of being able to fit that frame to the same total stat level via mods. Base stats provide higher value buffs from passive skills, base stats require no CPU/PG or slots to attain, base stats require no further SP/ISK investment to use as they are part of the suit. All of these factors are relevant balance factors and comparing final fittings stat numbers (e.g. EHP, dps, et al) straight across without accounting for these aspects results in false impressions of the game state/basic balance.
Likely more to come as I chew through this thread.
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1094
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 21:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
Informational note for the overall thread, the Logi LAV can sport a shield transporter so while there is no infantry mod for repping dropsuit shields there is in fact a method for repping dropsuit shields already present in game.
This does make shield external shield repping solutions less common than armor but not absent.
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1103
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 23:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
What testing methods are you guys going to be using for the Contacts? I'll get some rolling as well (I'm assuming there's a non-AUR version which can be picked up?) and post results.
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1103
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 23:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Contacts seem to do a lot more damage than suggested, specially with the explosive % increase against armor.
I wonder how their direct and splash interact with the extra damage dealt due to head shots and back shots.
Combined with the presumed bonus damage to armor this could account for the behavior we're seeing (and really be a factor in overall balance). |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1104
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 01:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Cross Atu wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Contacts seem to do a lot more damage than suggested, specially with the explosive % increase against armor. I wonder how their direct and splash interact with the extra damage dealt due to head shots and back shots. Combined with the presumed bonus damage to armor this could account for the behavior we're seeing (and really be a factor in overall balance). I think they should be left alone until the new plates come out and see how we hold out against them, if they can still one shot us then they are definately OP. I can understand the PROTO contact one shotting us, specially because of the SP it costs to get them, but not the fused one specially without a advanced or basic variant and a flux variant.
I agree I wouldn't change them yet until we see the new armor mods (and skills if any). OP or not however I would very much like to know how the damage is applied especially when it comes to AoE damage being done and efficiency for things like headshots etc. Also the methods used to factor in that extra damage against armor (and what % buff that is, since nades are harder to test in game).
One thing I have seen from theory crafting in another thread (and anecdotally supported by my own testing in game) is that currently contact nades are more deadly than the MD which seems to be out of line but that's also somewhat it's own issue.
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1108
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 14:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Highly doubt we would get some solid numbers, CCP doesn't love numbers as much as I do >.<, my suggestion is that you get a friend go to FW join opposite sides and test it out. I'm going to see if I can do this with a corp-mate later.
I would be very interested in your results.  |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1135
|
Posted - 2013.06.11 21:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
So assuming these actually turn out to be final values (look at 1:08), there are a few things to be said and a couple to be asked as well.
First current plates, they still need a balance pass to enhance their internal balance (from base to complex within the line) and their contextual balance (as compared with shields, after all even if the new plates bring more parity to the armor line as a whole they do nothing to change the balance issues with the current plates).
Second Ferroscale Plates, text in the video is a bit grainy for me but it looks very much like these will be low slot shield mods with 6 less HP per mod and higher fitting requirements than the current complex plates. They do maintain the higher load on PG as opposed to CPU when compared with shields (a good thing IMO since it keeps the lines diverse) but this puts armor tank in an even tighter bind when it comes to PG. The new plates as shown in the video do seem to be a boon for scouts but I wonder about the comparative fitting numbers both between Complex Plates/Complex Ferroscale and between Complex Ferroscale/Complex Extenders.
The other aspect here is base tank between armor vs shields derived from slot layout, and suit/racial bonuses.
Right now outside of the Amarr Logi there's essentially no bonus to armor tank from racial skills, the only arguable exception being the +1 HP/s from the proto Logi role bonus. This means in essence that for everyone not playing Logi the new plates do nothing to increase the validity of an armor tank, further this omission of armor tank skill buffs on armor related racial suits will push any "slayers" who want to armor tank into a position of looking to the Logi line more favorably than the Assault.
There are already generally unfounded cries to nerf the Logi due to the underwhelming racial/proto skills possessed by the Assault line, we need less of this skill buff bias not more.
There is a counter point, armor tankers can now stack the 60HP plates in low slots and stack damage mods in the highs, but while this is a good balancing element between the mods it once again distorts under the weight of suit skill buffs as due to the underwhelming Assault suit buffs many 'slayers' may now look on the Gal Logi suit as the new Cal Logi 'slayer' fit. Additional counter point would be the Min Assault built in rep of 1 HP/s, this will be a net win for the Minmatar Assault suits.
Reactive Plates These plates sport the new 'higher than Complex Plates' fittings costs of 36 CPU/15 PG.
For that price you get 45 HP (20 HP less than a basic plate with 1% less speed reduction) 2 HP/s (the value of a basic repper mod). Total cost for those two items 30 CPU/2 PG, that's 6 CPU/13PG more spent to in essence save one low slot.
Assuming the rep from these plates is buffed by the Amarr Logi racial bonus this may help that suit out a little bit but the buff is rather minimal.
The more fittings cost for free slots idea is a novel concept and I actual like it for flavor and flex however I'm not sure how this applies to current suits. On balance the Reactive plates with their minimal speed debuff and their 2-for-1 slot count may be a net gain for the Assault suits as it would allow them some on board reps, a bit more HP and not hit their speed that much, while leaving some slots free for other things like Regulators, Kinetic Catalyzes, et al. If combined with a bit more 'gank' from some of the Assault skill buffs, or some armor specific Assault skill buffs on the Amarr/Gallente suits this could help even the field nicely. Also the speed penilty on these plates is low enough for some scout builds to adopt the use of one for on board reps, or for Heavies in some roles/squad configurations to really benefit.
All in all the Reactive Plates seem to be the big winner in the new changes with the single class gaining the least utility from them being the Logi who already have on board reps via skills, will have fewer reps to give out as self rep becomes more common and who (outside the Gal Logi) won't have the slots + PG to really make significant use of them for the most part.
Final thoughts the new plates seem like good additions and they'll help some of the problem aspects present but other changes are most certainly needed to bring armor/shields into balance. Further care must be taken not to have the new mods create another misplaced wave of nerf threads as racial skills distort overall game effects.
That's my current analysis assuming that the stats in the video turn out to be the same stats upon release of the new mods.
0.02 ISK
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1145
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 04:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Cross Atu, your good posting continues to impress.
I think that CCP miss addressing the core issue with these, and that they're simply underpowered, even compared to current options.
I'd respond in more depth but I'm typing up a large post regarding this anyway.
Thank you very much  I do try to maintain quality standards for my posts (glad it's working so far )
Speaking of high quality posts related to this issue Breakin Stuff has a thread going with some very worthwhile discussion happening I'd advise everyone to give it a look.
Oh and Arkena Wyrnspire make sure to link your large post here once completed, I want to check that out 
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1146
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 05:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
Talos Alomar wrote:Let's keep the dream alive that armor/shields will be balanced some day.
Sometimes you just need the right motivation
In honesty if those values are actual and not place holders they either need to be revised or CCP needs to release a detailed explanation of their intended role and balance for Armor Tanking so that we can provide feedback within the proper context. As well as provide feedback on the intended context itself.
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1151
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 17:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I am currently writing up a larger thread, which will supercede this one. Don't worry about bumping this one anymore. Thanks though.
Please link thread here when complete |
|
|
|
|
| |
|