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Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
1198
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 23:15:00 -
[61] - Quote
I won't give my input until I am online and you include PG/CPU costs of said modules You totally glanced over an area where armor is favorable |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
114
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 23:50:00 -
[62] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:I won't give my input until I am online and you include PG/CPU costs of said modules You totally glanced over an area where armor is favorable
Shields are still superior. Lower CPU/PG costs encurage, favor, stacking but I don't think anybody is desperate enough to stack all low slots with Armor modules unless its basic modules, at the moment most people do not use over three armor extenders. |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
1198
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 23:55:00 -
[63] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:I won't give my input until I am online and you include PG/CPU costs of said modules You totally glanced over an area where armor is favorable Shields are still superior. *facepalm* The OP is using a rigged set of data where the thesis is being supported but if the OP was to include PG/CPU costs then the data would be more wholesome and thus be a valid statement (given that the argument still holds up which I suspect won't)
You can't purposefully leave out data and make claims.
If we neglect the fact that there has never been a sighting of Godzilla ever in human history, and show nothing but movie footage, Godzilla exists to this day! |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
114
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 00:24:00 -
[64] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:I won't give my input until I am online and you include PG/CPU costs of said modules You totally glanced over an area where armor is favorable Shields are still superior. *facepalm* The OP is using a rigged set of data where the thesis is being supported but if the OP was to include PG/CPU costs then the data would be more wholesome and thus be a valid statement (given that the argument still holds up which I suspect won't) You can't purposefully leave out data and make claims. If we neglect the fact that there has never been a sighting of Godzilla ever in human history, and show nothing but movie footage, Godzilla exists to this day!
A complex armor module is about 1/2 cheaper in CPU than a shield but the armor module is more expensive in PG, ontop of tjat armor still has a crippling reduction in speed which directly affects gameplay negatively and usage of said module, on the other hand while shields are a bit more expensive they offer nothing but positives and their extra CPU usage is barely crippling. |
Poplo Furuya
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 01:39:00 -
[65] - Quote
Don't be forgetting that armour's got to work in both plates and reppers, using lows. Lows that for the purposes of shield tanking can be fitted with CPU/PG boosters.
There ain't no reason not to include the data but it frankly isn't going to compensate for everything else serving as a factor against armour, even if it is marginally favourable in some builds. I suspect however it won't be, the increased PG from the reppers and plates will probably make them equally competitive for fitting resources.
I'll post it tomorrow if it's not up by then. |
Stephen Rao
Verboten XXI
24
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 02:08:00 -
[66] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:*facepalm* The OP is using a rigged set of data where the thesis is being supported but if the OP was to include PG/CPU costs then the data would be more wholesome and thus be a valid statement (given that the argument still holds up which I suspect won't)
You can't purposefully leave out data and make claims.
If we neglect the fact that there has never been a sighting of Godzilla ever in human history, and show nothing but movie footage, Godzilla exists to this day! CPU/PG are not defensive stats, they are a resource to be managed pre game. While we're are at it let's dig up the ISK cost and the time it takes to ship from the manufacturer.
Total eHP, eHP regeneration, and speed are all defensive stats. |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
1199
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 02:45:00 -
[67] - Quote
Stephen Rao wrote: CPU/PG are not defensive stats, they are a resource to be managed pre game. While we're are at it let's dig up the ISK cost and the time it takes to ship from the manufacturer.
Total eHP, eHP regeneration, and speed are all defensive stats.
But that's thinking in terms of one dimension. How much regeneration can you get if your CPU/PG is maxed? How much HP when maxed? How many modules are you able to fit at all to aid in your tanking given CPU/PG costs?
Yes ISK cost is important too, because if something is more cost effective then that is a point to consider!
All the good points about armor are overlooked because of some obsession that no matter how you look, shields win. Shields are first line of defense, but after they are gone, there is a delay before recharge (10 seconds) where you are vulnerable to armor. Shield tankers experience the following disadvantages: Flux Nade Vulnerability: Their primary defense can be vanquished in an instant and their raw un-tanked armor underbelly is exposed. Can Not Regenerate Armor Sum Tank additions are less than Armor tank additions Recharge is halted when damage is taken, at any level of significance Have a delay before recharge is restarted, two different times, one which is longer than the normal when all shields are depleted. High CPU/PG costs for modules, causing stress on fitting capabilities or sacrifice of tank HP per Module compared to CPU/PG costs is significantly higher than armor tanking.
These were the things I saw that drew me to armor tanking and I am perfectly fine with armor tanking. I will admit that something is screwy about Complex plates (in other words module progression) but that is where my problems with armor tanking sort of cease. |
Stephen Rao
Verboten XXI
24
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 03:29:00 -
[68] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:But that's thinking in terms of one dimension. How much regeneration can you get if your CPU/PG is maxed? How much HP when maxed? How many modules are you able to fit at all to aid in your tanking given CPU/PG costs? No player is able to fit all of the modules they wish they had. The issue I have with Armor Plates is that there is no reason to spec up to Level 5 in them as has been stated again and again in this thread. If you'd like the CPU/PG stats as well, it'd be nice to bring them to the conversation. As that's apparently not happening:
________________________CPU/PG Basic Armor Plates_________10/1 Advanced Armor Plates_____20/6 Complex Armor Plates______30/12
Basic Shield Extender________18/3 Advanced Shield Extender____36/6 Complex Shield Extender_____54/11
At first glance, Armor Plates have a CPU advantage. But wait! Those plates don't fix themselves!
Basic Armor Repair________20/1 Advanced Armor Repair_____35/5 Complex Armor Repair______45/11
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Yes ISK cost is important too, because if something is more cost effective then that is a point to consider! So if they reduced the ISK cost of Complex Armor Plates, would they be fixed?
Bojo The Mighty wrote:All the good points about armor are overlooked because of some obsession that no matter how you look, shields win. Shields are first line of defense, but after they are gone, there is a delay before recharge (10 seconds) where you are vulnerable to armor. Shield tankers experience the following disadvantages: 1. Flux Nade Vulnerability: Their primary defense can be vanquished in an instant and their raw un-tanked armor underbelly is exposed. 2. Can Not Regenerate Armor 3. Sum Tank additions are less than Armor tank additions 4. Recharge is halted when damage is taken, at any level of significance 5. Have a delay before recharge is restarted, two different times, one which is longer than the normal when all shields are depleted. 6. High CPU/PG costs for modules, causing stress on fitting capabilities or sacrifice of tank 7. HP per Module compared to CPU/PG costs is significantly higher than shield[fixed] tanking. I have numbered your points for response purposes:
1. Yes, Flux are effective against Shields. Locus are great against Armor, and they have a Fused variant. 2. If they don't want to. They have low slots as well that I know they haven't been filling with Shield Extenders. 3. Which is a great Armor advantage, however it's equals out to only an extra shot from a TAR. Oh wait, the Armor guy has less speed right? 4. Indeed, recharge is also faster for free. There are also modules that increase the rate of repair and the speed they start repairing at if those are concerns. Armor needs modules just to begin repairing! 5. See #4 6. High CPU for Plates compared to Extenders, but they have compairable PG. If you want repairing Armor, you're spending way more CPU/PG. 7. Yes, but you have less CPU/PG and slots to fit them as you split the availability with repairers.
Bojo The Mighty wrote:These were the things I saw that drew me to armor tanking and I am perfectly fine with armor tanking. I will admit that something is screwy about Complex plates (in other words module progression) but that is where my problems with armor tanking sort of cease. I agree. If you look at my past arguments, I am arguing that Amror module progression is out of whack, primarily due to the way that the speed penalty scales. |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
1199
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 04:34:00 -
[69] - Quote
Stephen Rao wrote: No player is able to fit all of the modules they wish they had. The issue I have with Armor Plates is that there is no reason to spec up to Level 5 in them as has been stated again and again in this thread. If you'd like to make the argument for CPU/PG stats, it'd be nice to bring them to the conversation.
________________________CPU/PG Basic Armor Plates_________10/1 Advanced Armor Plates_____20/6 Complex Armor Plates______30/12
Basic Shield Extender________18/3 Advanced Shield Extender____36/6 Complex Shield Extender_____54/11
At first glance, Armor Plates have a CPU advantage. But wait! Those plates don't fix themselves!
Basic Armor Repair________20/1 Advanced Armor Repair_____35/5 Complex Armor Repair______45/11
I have numbered your points for response purposes:
1. Yes, Flux are effective against Shields. Locus are great against Armor, and they have a Fused variant. 2. If they don't want to. They have low slots as well that I know they haven't been filling with Shield Extenders. 3. Which is a great Armor advantage, however it's equals out to 2 shots from automatic weapons, and 1 shot from semi-auto weapons. Oh wait, the Armor guy has a speed penalty, right? 4. Indeed, recharge is also faster for free. There are also modules that increase the rate of repair and the speed they start repairing at if those are concerns. Armor needs modules just to begin repairing! 5. See #4 6. Plates save on CPU compared to Extenders, but they have compairable PG. If you want repairing Armor, you're spending way more CPU/PG. 7. Yes, but you have less CPU/PG and slots to fit them as you split the availability with repairers.
Alright thank you for bringing law and order *cracks knuckles* First of all, there are inherit perks and disadvantages to armor tanking. You get more tank, less speed, no inherent regen, less CPU costs and comparable PG costs, however regen should you choose has perks over shield. However module progression does need some work*
1. Yes locus grenades are good against armor but everyone has shields, so there is a rechargeable barrier there preventing all that grenade going straight into armor. Armor is second line defense not first. But both kind of weigh each other out. It's just that if you put all your chips into shields then come across a flux nade you might as well be paper in the wind. Locus grenades do not always take out all your armor like a flux always takes out all your shields. 2. Yeah but a shield tanker purest lets say will fill those slots with regulators. Yes I find it off that shield tanking (infantry) supports armor regeneration but here's the thing, Armor Repairers are CPU heavy and that will cause the shield tanker to make sacrifices. However their low slot capability does not work so well. 3. Well if you move like a slug then play like a slug. Don't try to act like a cheetah if you can only move so fast. Armor tanking requires a different style than shield tanking, one that calls for the sacrifice of mobility. Move like a chess piece, think like a chess piece. Shield tanking is a little more "in the moment" while armor tankers are more long haul kind of people. 4. Well the faster recharge is a perk of shield tanking, they have to have some good points you know. 5. As do shield tankers, if they want to preserve armor. Armor tank suits favor low slots so you should have extra room to fit that armor repairer and HEY! Your shields regen for free too! *Not all armor tankers pack a repper, sometimes it's better to go all out tank and have a buddy with a tool* 6. Yes you are, an inherit risk of armor tanking, but armor plates cost less cpu/pg and give more HP (significantly) so doesn't that sort of even out? 7. (first of all the HP per CPU/PG is significantly higher if you are shield tanking than armor tanking) Yes, but self repping armor is still a choice, you can do more tanking in its place. But lets suppose you do, 5 x Shield Extenders (supposing you can fit them) = 330 for 270 CPU / 55 PG 2x Complex plates = 330 for 60 CPU/24 PG
You see there ^ ? That's plenty of room for Complex armor reps, you have room for 3 but for comparable health!
I think #7 is a good example of why armor is working pretty much. |
Text Grant
Famous.OTF Only The Famous
11
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 05:39:00 -
[70] - Quote
High slot passive armor damage reduction could help fix this |
|
Stephen Rao
Verboten XXI
24
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 05:55:00 -
[71] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:1. Yes locus grenades are good against armor but everyone has shields, so there is a rechargeable barrier there preventing all that grenade going straight into armor. Armor is second line defense not first. But both kind of weigh each other out. It's just that if you put all your chips into shields then come across a flux nade you might as well be paper in the wind. Locus grenades do not always take out all your armor like a flux always takes out all your shields. 2. Yeah but a shield tanker purest lets say will fill those slots with regulators. Yes I find it off that shield tanking (infantry) supports armor regeneration but here's the thing, Armor Repairers are CPU heavy and that will cause the shield tanker to make sacrifices. However their low slot capability does not work so well. 3. Well if you move like a slug then play like a slug. Don't try to act like a cheetah if you can only move so fast. Armor tanking requires a different style than shield tanking, one that calls for the sacrifice of mobility. Move like a chess piece, think like a chess piece. Shield tanking is a little more "in the moment" while armor tankers are more long haul kind of people. 4. Well the faster recharge is a perk of shield tanking, they have to have some good points you know. 5. As do shield tankers, if they want to preserve armor. Armor tank suits favor low slots so you should have extra room to fit that armor repairer and HEY! Your shields regen for free too! *Not all armor tankers pack a repper, sometimes it's better to go all out tank and have a buddy with a tool* 6. Yes you are, an inherit risk of armor tanking, but armor plates cost less cpu/pg and give more HP (significantly) so doesn't that sort of even out? 7. (first of all the HP per CPU/PG is significantly higher if you are shield tanking than armor tanking) Yes, but self repping armor is still a choice, you can do more tanking in its place. But lets suppose you do, 5 x Shield Extenders (supposing you can fit them) = 330 for 270 CPU / 55 PG 2x Complex plates = 330 for 60 CPU/24 PG
You see there ^ ? That's plenty of room for Complex armor reps, you have room for 3 but for comparable health!
I think #7 is a good example of why armor is working pretty much.
EDIT: I left out a crucial point that armor is slower than shield tanking (if you choose to use plates). That is what equalizes the playing field and again, move like a slug, play like a slug. 1. Just as it takes a Flux and then shooting to kill a Shield Tanker, it takes Shooting the Locus to kill an Armor Tanker. While the Locus isn't the definitive tool the Flux is against Shields, Flux cannot kill players on it's on (barring that glitch doesn't raise it's ugly head again). Both are tools to be used against a type of protection, however you cannot carry both (not an argument for or against, just a statement of fact). 2. I run a Militia or Basic Armor Repairer on my Caldari Medium Frame (*gasp*). While it doesn't provide a lot of health repair, if I take damage to my Armor and survive to get my shields back up and running, my Armor will steadily repair (while my shields take any additional shots) until I'm back to full. And the 20/1 CPU/PG is well worth the cost. While Shield Regulators can definitely be handy, I have SP to spend on other things than Level 5 Regulators... 3. Slugs are one thing, but adding 2 Complex Armor Plates turns your walking speed into your sprinting speed. While there are situations where speed isn't as necessary, after first contact, being able to react is an invaluable asset in defence, offense, support and objective control. Foresight and planning may allow you to account for one or two of these roles, but the speed restriction limits your overal flexibility. 4. 5. While you can run all Plates and rely on Repair Tools to keep you healthy, we're now using additional players. 6. They cost less CPU, PG is about equivalent. I can't argue that more HP isn't better, but that's ignoring the drawbacks again (the "drawback" being a trait only held by Armor Plate Modules) 7. Except 2 Complex Plates = 230, still admirable (but then we get back to the 20% speed reduction...).
I still like this standpoint on a change:
ZDub 303 wrote: No matter what, I feel like complex modules should be MORE efficient than basic modules for buff per penalty.
If we kept with the 3% move penalty / 65 armor you're looking at 0.046% move penalty per armor point... At which point advanced should be like 0.035% and complex at 0.03%...
So.. Basic, 65 Armor - 3% move penalty Complex, 115 Armor - 3.45% move penalty.
That way, it is never more efficient to run basic > complex.
I don't even care if the Basic was 3%, Enhanced was 4% and Complex was 5% speed reduction, that'd be fine by me. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
668
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 06:47:00 -
[72] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote: 1. Yes locus grenades are good against armor but everyone has shields, so there is a rechargeable barrier there preventing all that grenade going straight into armor. Armor is second line defense not first. But both kind of weigh each other out. It's just that if you put all your chips into shields then come across a flux nade you might as well be paper in the wind. Locus grenades do not always take out all your armor like a flux always takes out all your shields. 2. Yeah but a shield tanker purest lets say will fill those slots with regulators. Yes I find it off that shield tanking (infantry) supports armor regeneration but here's the thing, Armor Repairers are CPU heavy and that will cause the shield tanker to make sacrifices. However their low slot capability does not work so well. 3. Well if you move like a slug then play like a slug. Don't try to act like a cheetah if you can only move so fast. Armor tanking requires a different style than shield tanking, one that calls for the sacrifice of mobility. Move like a chess piece, think like a chess piece. Shield tanking is a little more "in the moment" while armor tankers are more long haul kind of people. 4. Well the faster recharge is a perk of shield tanking, they have to have some good points you know. 5. As do shield tankers, if they want to preserve armor. Armor tank suits favor low slots so you should have extra room to fit that armor repairer and HEY! Your shields regen for free too! *Not all armor tankers pack a repper, sometimes it's better to go all out tank and have a buddy with a tool* 6. Yes you are, an inherit risk of armor tanking, but armor plates cost less cpu/pg and give more HP (significantly) so doesn't that sort of even out? EDIT See #7 7. (first of all the HP per CPU/PG is significantly higher if you are shield tanking than armor tanking) Yes, but self repping armor is still a choice, you can do more tanking in its place. But lets suppose you do, 5 x Shield Extenders (supposing you can fit them) = 330 for 270 CPU / 55 PG 2x Complex plates = 330 for 60 CPU/24 PG
You see there ^ ? That's plenty of room for Complex armor reps, you have room for 3 but for comparable health!
I think #7 is a good example of why armor is working pretty much.
EDIT: I left out a crucial point that armor is slower than shield tanking (if you choose to use plates). That is what equalizes the playing field and again, move like a slug, play like a slug.
Alright - Stephen Rao has done a good job of answering your point, but I want to add a few things (given you, perhaps somewhat rightly, accused me of rigging the data).
1. Locus grenades are perfectly capable of blasting straight through the small shield buffer that armour tankers have before reaching the armour layer where they do more damage. Also, you're underestimating what happens when your armour runs out. You die. You lose a dropsuit, a clone. Flux may strip your shields, but locus can kill you outright much more easily if you're armour tanking. The speed penalty also makes it more difficult to evade. Flux grenades do still strip shields well even at the edge of the blast, so you have a point there. Another thing - people have a tendency to use locus grenades far more than they do flux, so you're unlikely to encounter them. They can be devastating to a shield tanker if used correctly, but a flux grenade alone cannot kill a shield tanker. A locus grenade can, but it's more likely to kill the armour tanker standing next to him.
2. And if they do that, it's something they've done that armour can't match. Armour can't devote all of its slots to armour tanking. Shield regulators reduce the recharge delay to the point that you start regenerating whilst still under fire.
3. Yes - armour tanking is supposed to be slow. However, it needs to be worth the tradeoff. You lose tactical power projection, as you can't get to objectives, you lose the ability to flee from a bad fight, and you become easier to hit. That's not worth it with the current state of armour.
4. ...
5. Shield tankers can get away with fitting a single basic repairer, as they're not relying on armour as much. If they're Minmatar, they have an inherent 1 HP/s armour regeneration and don't need that. If they're Logistics, they don't need it either because of the bonus.
6. You can't dedicate yourself to armour plating unless you want to become horribly slow. That's very, very bad for a whole bunch of reasons.
7. Those numbers sound good - 330 shield vs 330 armour, with armour having significantly less fitting requirements - until you realise that: A) Your numbers are wrong. B) That armour has no regen. C) That armour is as slow as a snail.
I will start with A. That will actually give you 230 armour. A fairly easy mistake, but the reality is significantly different. You'd actually need to fit 3 plates to get 345 HP (closer to the shield value). It's still less CPU/PG, at 90/36, but you're now 30% slower as well, instead of 20% slower. You're also taking up 3 of 4 or 5 slots at proto level.
Continued in next post. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
668
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 06:52:00 -
[73] - Quote
B. To get regen on that armour, it's essential to fit armour repairers. Even if you do, the shield regen is still vastly superior to armour regen. So let's say you dedicate your last one or two slots to complex armour repairers (and you need complex reps, the enhanced and basics don't cut it). That gives you 45/11 or 90/22 in addition to 90/36.
So 135/47 or 180/58. The first number can be discounted because we assumed that shields have 5 slots to fill, though, so we're going with 5 slots for armour as well.
Those 5 slots get you a 30% slowdown and a 17.5 HP/s regen (because this would be on a logi, with 5 lows). It'll give you marginally more HP than a shield tank, though! So let's look at what the shield tank gets. 25 HP/s regen with a short delay, and no slowdown. Also 1 or 5 HP/s armour, so no need to fit a rep. The delay can be reduced to so little time that it barely matters, and even with a 4 second delay shields will outpace armour in regenerating up to full HP. In this case, armour gets to be slower, regenerate slower, aim worse, and that's for 15 HP. There are a number of other reasons this is even worse - for example, resistances - but I covered those in the OP.
C. That slowness does horrible things. You lose power projection in Skirmish as you can't get around objectives fast enough. Having to call in an LAV isn't a solution, because that takes some time and makes you reliant on it for transport. You're slower to aim, which can kill in a shooter. You're also easier to hit, which makes your tank's weaknesses even more apparent as it gets pounded on.
Thanks for the feedback - I may have come across as biased (and I probably am, to an extent), but I tried to avoid that. I will update the OP with fittings numbers to try and be more fair. Also, I mean no offense with some slightly harsh points of "You're wrong". This is something I feel fairly strongly about, though. |
JONAHBENHUR
New Eden's Most Wanted Gentlemen's Agreement
5
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 08:34:00 -
[74] - Quote
yeah they really need to fix armor it is so broken, yes you can heal a hole 2-5hp a second no matter what but the pg and cpu demands on a armor dude is ridiculous to get 317hp on a suit requires it to move so slow there is no point in even having them you just cant have armor plates on stuff it is how the game is right now it will change someday and maybe armor will be king in the next update/patch. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
680
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 10:40:00 -
[75] - Quote
JONAHBENHUR wrote:yeah they really need to fix armor it is so broken, yes you can heal a hole 2-5hp a second no matter what but the pg and cpu demands on a armor dude is ridiculous to get 317hp on a suit requires it to move so slow there is no point in even having them you just cant have armor plates on stuff it is how the game is right now it will change someday and maybe armor will be king in the next update/patch. Pretty much. Though I highly doubt armour will ever be 'king'. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
115
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 10:46:00 -
[76] - Quote
Bump, this thread shall never die. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
115
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 11:05:00 -
[77] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:JONAHBENHUR wrote:yeah they really need to fix armor it is so broken, yes you can heal a hole 2-5hp a second no matter what but the pg and cpu demands on a armor dude is ridiculous to get 317hp on a suit requires it to move so slow there is no point in even having them you just cant have armor plates on stuff it is how the game is right now it will change someday and maybe armor will be king in the next update/patch. Pretty much. Though I highly doubt armour will ever be 'king'.
Armor shouldn't be king, but neither do shields. Deciding to pick what suit one is to run, and what tanking method they will prefer, shield tanking or armor tanking, should be a cosmetic and/or personal choice neither should be better than the other but sadly this is untrue.
How the system is now even a suit that relies on armor has to shield tank if he wants to survive. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
680
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 11:22:00 -
[78] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:JONAHBENHUR wrote:yeah they really need to fix armor it is so broken, yes you can heal a hole 2-5hp a second no matter what but the pg and cpu demands on a armor dude is ridiculous to get 317hp on a suit requires it to move so slow there is no point in even having them you just cant have armor plates on stuff it is how the game is right now it will change someday and maybe armor will be king in the next update/patch. Pretty much. Though I highly doubt armour will ever be 'king'. Armor shouldn't be king, but neither do shields. Deciding to pick what suit one is to run, and what tanking method they will prefer, shield tanking or armor tanking, should be a cosmetic and/or personal choice neither should be better than the other but sadly this is untrue. How the system is now even a suit that relies on armor has to shield tank if he wants to survive.
There should be tactical situations where armour is better, and situations where shield is better. Right now, shield is better in too many compared to armour, which is rarely (never?) better. |
Purona
Militaires Sans Jeux
10
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 11:25:00 -
[79] - Quote
nothing wrong with armor its a different play style don't stack armor plates its not worthwhile
shields lack the ability to put on damage mods armor lacks the ability to put on profile dampeners and scan enhancers
shields are better against burst damage from snipers armor is better against small arms fire
shields are more solo oriented since people with armor repairs don't gain much armor are more team oriented since people with armor repairs can heal them
shields lose shields that's it armor still have shields to come back online as well as their armor |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
116
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 11:34:00 -
[80] - Quote
Purona wrote:nothing wrong with armor its a different play style don't stack armor plates its not worthwhile
shields lack the ability to put on damage mods armor lacks the ability to put on profile dampeners and scan enhancers
shields are better against burst damage from snipers armor is better against small arms fire
shields are more solo oriented since people with armor repairs don't gain much armor are more team oriented since people with armor repairs can heal them
shields lose shields that's it armor still have shields to come back online as well as their armor
If moving extremely slow is part of a playstyle then i'm all ears, the only thing that can hurt shields effectively is Laser and Scrambler weapons, and Flux grenades all of which are severely UP at the moment. And armor also lacks the ability to stack damage mods simply because we still have to stack shields in order to compete defensively, a shield tank can sacrifice a shield mod for a damage mod and still have more ehp than a Armor tank that stacked all shields, unless the armor tank was dumb enough to stack a bunch of armor mods but in that case he will die simply from not being able to tactically run away. |
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
3216
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 12:22:00 -
[81] - Quote
Weapons with significantly higher shield damage than armour:
Laser Rifle, Scrambler Rifle, Flux Grenade.
Weapons with slightly higher shield damage than armour:
Shotgun, Assault Rifle, Sniper Rifle, Railgun, Blaster, Plasma Cannon, Forge Gun.
Why do people always forget that Hybrid weapons actually deal more shield than armour damage? It isn't a huge imbalance, but it's still an advantage to armour tanking, particularly when the armour tankers also have higher base HP to go along with that (slight) edge in resistance against almost all the common weapons on the battlefield.
More seriously though, the core mechanics of the infantry side of DUST greatly favour shield-tanking, while HAVs at least (not entirely sure about other vehicles) favour armour in the game's current state. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
120
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 12:28:00 -
[82] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Weapons with significantly higher shield damage than armour:
Laser Rifle, Scrambler Rifle, Flux Grenade.
Weapons with slightly higher shield damage than armour:
Shotgun, Assault Rifle, Sniper Rifle, Railgun, Blaster, Plasma Cannon, Forge Gun.
Why do people always forget that Hybrid weapons actually deal more shield than armour damage? It isn't a huge imbalance, but it's still an advantage to armour tanking, particularly when the armour tankers also have higher base HP to go along with that (slight) edge in resistance against almost all the common weapons on the battlefield.
More seriously though, the core mechanics of the infantry side of DUST greatly favour shield-tanking, while HAVs at least (not entirely sure about other vehicles) favour armour in the game's current state.
Your forgetting the weapons that do have an edge against armor, like missiles, grenades, mass drivers, flaylock pistol, smgs, HMG, and remote explosives. All of which have a 130% damage increase against armor. |
Templar Razack
Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 13:19:00 -
[83] - Quote
WHAR SOXFOUR POST, WHAR?! |
Kitten Empress
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
262
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 13:40:00 -
[84] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:Weapons with significantly higher shield damage than armour:
Laser Rifle, Scrambler Rifle, Flux Grenade.
Weapons with slightly higher shield damage than armour:
Shotgun, Assault Rifle, Sniper Rifle, Railgun, Blaster, Plasma Cannon, Forge Gun.
Why do people always forget that Hybrid weapons actually deal more shield than armour damage? It isn't a huge imbalance, but it's still an advantage to armour tanking, particularly when the armour tankers also have higher base HP to go along with that (slight) edge in resistance against almost all the common weapons on the battlefield.
More seriously though, the core mechanics of the infantry side of DUST greatly favour shield-tanking, while HAVs at least (not entirely sure about other vehicles) favour armour in the game's current state. Your forgetting the weapons that do have an edge against armor, like missiles, grenades, mass drivers, flaylock pistol, smgs, HMG, and remote explosives. All of which have a 130% damage increase against armor. Flaylock is around 150%, as well as all other explosives. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
121
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 13:57:00 -
[85] - Quote
Kitten Empress wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:Weapons with significantly higher shield damage than armour:
Laser Rifle, Scrambler Rifle, Flux Grenade.
Weapons with slightly higher shield damage than armour:
Shotgun, Assault Rifle, Sniper Rifle, Railgun, Blaster, Plasma Cannon, Forge Gun.
Why do people always forget that Hybrid weapons actually deal more shield than armour damage? It isn't a huge imbalance, but it's still an advantage to armour tanking, particularly when the armour tankers also have higher base HP to go along with that (slight) edge in resistance against almost all the common weapons on the battlefield.
More seriously though, the core mechanics of the infantry side of DUST greatly favour shield-tanking, while HAVs at least (not entirely sure about other vehicles) favour armour in the game's current state. Your forgetting the weapons that do have an edge against armor, like missiles, grenades, mass drivers, flaylock pistol, smgs, HMG, and remote explosives. All of which have a 130% damage increase against armor. Flaylock is around 150%, as well as all other explosives.
Don't have enough SP to test them all, but they are still pretty high lol. |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
1200
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 14:23:00 -
[86] - Quote
Stephen Rao wrote:1. Just as it takes a Flux and then shooting to kill a Shield Tanker, it takes Shooting then Locus to kill an Armor Tanker. While the Locus isn't the definitive tool that Flux is against Shields, Flux cannot kill players on it's own (barring that glitch doesn't raise it's ugly head again). Both are tools to be used against a type of protection, however you cannot carry both (not an argument for or against, just a statement of fact). 2. I run a Militia or Basic Armor Repairer on my Caldari Medium Frame (*gasp*). While it doesn't provide a lot of health repair, if I take damage to my Armor and survive to get my shields back up and running, my Armor will steadily repair (while my shields take any additional shots) until I'm back to full. And the 20/1 CPU/PG is well worth the cost. While Shield Regulators can definitely be handy, I have SP to spend on other things than Level 5 Regulators... 3. Slugs are one thing, but adding 2 Complex Armor Plates turns your walking speed into your sprinting speed. While there are situations where speed isn't as necessary, after first contact, being able to react is an invaluable asset in defence, offense, support and objective control. Foresight and planning may allow you to account for one or two of these roles, but the speed restriction limits your overal flexibility. 4. 5. While you can run all Plates and rely on Repair Tools to keep you healthy, we're now using additional players. 6. They cost less CPU, PG is about equivalent. I can't argue that more HP isn't better, but that's ignoring the drawback (the "drawback" being a trait only held by Armor Plate Modules) 7. Except 2 Complex Plates = 230, still admirable (but then we get back to the 20% speed reduction...). I still like this standpoint on a change: ZDub 303 wrote: No matter what, I feel like complex modules should be MORE efficient than basic modules for buff per penalty.
If we kept with the 3% move penalty / 65 armor you're looking at 0.046% move penalty per armor point... At which point advanced should be like 0.035% and complex at 0.03%...
So.. Basic, 65 Armor - 3% move penalty Complex, 115 Armor - 3.45% move penalty.
That way, it is never more efficient to run basic > complex.
I don't even care if the Basic was 3%, Enhanced was 4% and Complex was 5% speed reduction, that'd be fine by me. Oh **** me, sorry had a blond moment
Alright, for 3 complex plates you're getting 345 HP for less pg/cpu and stuff even with Complex reps on it. You wouldn't be able to fit any complex reps on the shield suit using all those extenders. BUT AGAIN SOMETHING WHACK ABOUT THOSE COMPLEX PLATES. 1. Well when you lose all armor you die, so that is a perk of having an anti-armor tool I guess, and a perk to armor tanking. 2. Yes and like I said, a little fishy that shield tanking and armor repair go hand in hand. 3. Slugs are an analogy. Heavies don't play like a scout right? Well why should an armor tanker play like a shield tanker? If mobility is now your weakness, then don't rely on it, don't play like you can move like Jet Li. You can't and you will die trying. Mobility is only as important to you as you make it out to be, so if mobility is really your thing, then shield tank! 4. Hey man, if armor's only weakness was the mobility reduction, it would probably be overpowered. 5. True, I guess I shouldn't have, but there is no outside tool in the game for infantry that pops your shields back to full perkiness, a tool that negates the recharge delay. On top of that armor tanking leads to WP farming....if you want to look at ti that way. 6. Not really ignoring the drawback because in my mind, like #3, you have to play like you are. There is no sense on depending/playing on your mobility when you lack it. (I will get to you arkena in due time) 7. Yeah again, blond moment, so now you're running 3 complex plates for less CPU/ more PG now (Powergrid and armor go hand in hand though) and you have room for repair modules BUT AGAIN SOMETHING WHACK ABOUT THOSE COMPLEX PLATES. They should probably be set at 150 so that 2x complex plates + a little something extra > 5 complex extenders.
Alright so with armor, you want the plate numbers and thuse CPU/PG per plate to be the same (which is whack on complex plates) and instead make them more mobile efficient? Honestly it's not a bad start but the PG is still going to be excessive on those complex plates. |
Kitten Empress
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
263
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 14:54:00 -
[87] - Quote
Shield modules go on medium slots. Armor modules go on low slots. Now, buddy, where do CPU/PG upgrades go?
So do you see where your CPU/PG argument fails? |
Stephen Rao
Intrepidus XI
29
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 16:16:00 -
[88] - Quote
No worries, it was so late at night when I was replying that I almost missed it. I was thinking "Damn, Complex Armor Plates do give you a ton of health..."
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Oh **** me, sorry had a blond moment
Alright, for 3 complex plates you're getting 345 HP for less pg/cpu and stuff even with Complex reps on it. You wouldn't be able to fit any complex reps on the shield suit using all those extenders. BUT AGAIN SOMETHING WHACK ABOUT THOSE COMPLEX PLATES. 1. Well when you lose all armor you die, so that is a perk of having an anti-armor tool I guess, and a perk to armor tanking. 2. Yes and like I said, a little fishy that shield tanking and armor repair go hand in hand. 3. Slugs are an analogy. Heavies don't play like a scout right? Well why should an armor tanker play like a shield tanker? If mobility is now your weakness, then don't rely on it, don't play like you can move like Jet Li. You can't and you will die trying. Mobility is only as important to you as you make it out to be, so if mobility is really your thing, then shield tank! 4. Hey man, if armor's only weakness was the mobility reduction, it would probably be overpowered. 5. True, I guess I shouldn't have, but there is no outside tool in the game for infantry that pops your shields back to full perkiness, a tool that negates the recharge delay. On top of that armor tanking leads to WP farming....if you want to look at ti that way. 6. Not really ignoring the drawback because in my mind, like #3, you have to play like you are. There is no sense on depending/playing on your mobility when you lack it. (I will get to you arkena in due time) 7. Yeah again, blond moment, so now you're running 3 complex plates for less CPU/ more PG now (Powergrid and armor go hand in hand though) and you have room for repair modules BUT AGAIN SOMETHING WHACK ABOUT THOSE COMPLEX PLATES. They should probably be set at 150 so that 2x complex plates + a little something extra > 5 complex extenders.
Alright so with armor, you want the plate numbers and thuse CPU/PG per plate to be the same (which is whack on complex plates) and instead make them more mobile efficient? Honestly it's not a bad start but the PG is still going to be excessive on those complex plates. I'm going to skip 1, 2 and 4 as I think we've reached the conclusion of those.
3. I understand that the speed penalty is an inherent balancing factor for Armor Plates, its just the rate at which it scales for the higher levels that makes it ridiculous. Basic Armor Plates have a .046% speed reduction [sr] per HP, while Enhanced have .059% sr per HP, and Complex take the cake with .087% sr per HP... wtf? 5. It's all good, as it is a valid point. I was just a little pissed that you brought up the CPU/PG of the module basis, then through in that Armor can use additional bros to keep it running. Armor has Nanohives that repair it, as well as Repair Tools. Shields currently have nothing (I'm pretty sure Shield Transporters will eventually make the jump to Infantry Equipment... but not yet). I'm just glad you haven't used this as the basis for your whole argument 6. While true, the reason this thread exists is to exclaim that the penalty is a deterrent to advance in Armor Plate skill. #3 has the numbers crunched. 7. One solution. I think that the HP to CPU/PG is decent as-is, but that the sr is the real deterrent with plating due to the inordinate increase in weight (why to we make 'stronger' out of concrete?)
But the PG will keep us from seeing 4x Complex Plates. While it is an option to Plate stack, I think the PG is fair as it is similar to Complex Extenders PG cost and grants 50 more HP. The sr is the balancing factor, however since speed is also a defensive stat I think they went a little overboard on the penalty. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
690
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 16:29:00 -
[89] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Weapons with significantly higher shield damage than armour:
Laser Rifle, Scrambler Rifle, Flux Grenade.
Weapons with slightly higher shield damage than armour:
Shotgun, Assault Rifle, Sniper Rifle, Railgun, Blaster, Plasma Cannon, Forge Gun.
Why do people always forget that Hybrid weapons actually deal more shield than armour damage? It isn't a huge imbalance, but it's still an advantage to armour tanking, particularly when the armour tankers also have higher base HP to go along with that (slight) edge in resistance against almost all the common weapons on the battlefield.
More seriously though, the core mechanics of the infantry side of DUST greatly favour shield-tanking, while HAVs at least (not entirely sure about other vehicles) favour armour in the game's current state.
I think the last 4 items on your list are there just to make it look longer. If you're getting hit by AV weapons and large turrets as an infantry guy, you're dead, regardless of armour or shields. Except in the case of blaster turrets I suppose, but then the difference isn't significant enough to change the number of shots it takes to kill you. Snipers can more easily hit armour tankers, which balances that out. Shotguns can catch up to armour tankers more easily, and this -slight- difference in damage likely won't change the number of shots it takes a shotgun to kill either person assuming equal stats.
Assault rifles are a valid and fair point, but again, I believe that they can hit armour tankers more easily because they're easier to aim at.
I've mentioned the three weapons with significantly higher shield damage in the OP - but armour has it worse off here.
Weapons with significantly higher armour damage than shield:
Submachine gun, Heavy machine gun, Flaylock pistol, Mass driver, Locus grenades - and since we're including turrets - missile turrets
They also do a lot more - the explosives do 150% to armour and 70% to shields. That's an 80% difference - with the scrambler rifle and laser rifle it's a 30% difference. That's obscene. It's different for the kinetic weaponry, but it still favours shields significantly more in terms of resistances, doing 130% rather than 120%.
Good to hear that you realise the problems - I don't think I've used HAVs enough to comment on that issue. This is an infantry thread anyway. Cheers for the feedback - I'll put in the hybrid damage thing in the OP as well. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
690
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 17:00:00 -
[90] - Quote
Confirmed for SoxFour read: [17:55] <@[CCP]FoxFour> Yup, I read it yesterday but decided that I really shouldn't respond in my intoxicated state [18:01] <@[CCP]FoxFour> Yea, my response is mainly "holy **** I know understand things better, but I don't handle this stuff so let me pass this thread on to those who do this stuff" |
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