|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
1198
   |
Posted - 2013.06.03 23:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
I won't give my input until I am online and you include PG/CPU costs of said modules
You totally glanced over an area where armor is favorable |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
1198
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 23:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:I won't give my input until I am online and you include PG/CPU costs of said modules
You totally glanced over an area where armor is favorable Shields are still superior.
*facepalm*
The OP is using a rigged set of data where the thesis is being supported but if the OP was to include PG/CPU costs then the data would be more wholesome and thus be a valid statement (given that the argument still holds up which I suspect won't)
You can't purposefully leave out data and make claims.
If we neglect the fact that there has never been a sighting of Godzilla ever in human history, and show nothing but movie footage, Godzilla exists to this day! |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
1199
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 02:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
Stephen Rao wrote:
CPU/PG are not defensive stats, they are a resource to be managed pre game. While we're are at it let's dig up the ISK cost and the time it takes to ship from the manufacturer.
Total eHP, eHP regeneration, and speed are all defensive stats.
But that's thinking in terms of one dimension.
How much regeneration can you get if your CPU/PG is maxed? How much HP when maxed? How many modules are you able to fit at all to aid in your tanking given CPU/PG costs?
Yes ISK cost is important too, because if something is more cost effective then that is a point to consider!
All the good points about armor are overlooked because of some obsession that no matter how you look, shields win.
Shields are first line of defense, but after they are gone, there is a delay before recharge (10 seconds) where you are vulnerable to armor.
Shield tankers experience the following disadvantages:
Flux Nade Vulnerability: Their primary defense can be vanquished in an instant and their raw un-tanked armor underbelly is exposed.
Can Not Regenerate Armor
Sum Tank additions are less than Armor tank additions
Recharge is halted when damage is taken, at any level of significance
Have a delay before recharge is restarted, two different times, one which is longer than the normal when all shields are depleted.
High CPU/PG costs for modules, causing stress on fitting capabilities or sacrifice of tank
HP per Module compared to CPU/PG costs is significantly higher than armor tanking.
These were the things I saw that drew me to armor tanking and I am perfectly fine with armor tanking. I will admit that something is screwy about Complex plates (in other words module progression) but that is where my problems with armor tanking sort of cease. |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
1199
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 04:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
Stephen Rao wrote:
No player is able to fit all of the modules they wish they had. The issue I have with Armor Plates is that there is no reason to spec up to Level 5 in them as has been stated again and again in this thread. If you'd like to make the argument for CPU/PG stats, it'd be nice to bring them to the conversation.
________________________CPU/PG
Basic Armor Plates_________10/1
Advanced Armor Plates_____20/6
Complex Armor Plates______30/12
Basic Shield Extender________18/3
Advanced Shield Extender____36/6
Complex Shield Extender_____54/11
At first glance, Armor Plates have a CPU advantage. But wait! Those plates don't fix themselves!
Basic Armor Repair________20/1
Advanced Armor Repair_____35/5
Complex Armor Repair______45/11
I have numbered your points for response purposes:
1. Yes, Flux are effective against Shields. Locus are great against Armor, and they have a Fused variant.
2. If they don't want to. They have low slots as well that I know they haven't been filling with Shield Extenders.
3. Which is a great Armor advantage, however it's equals out to 2 shots from automatic weapons, and 1 shot from semi-auto weapons. Oh wait, the Armor guy has a speed penalty, right?
4. Indeed, recharge is also faster for free. There are also modules that increase the rate of repair and the speed they start repairing at if those are concerns. Armor needs modules just to begin repairing!
5. See #4
6. Plates save on CPU compared to Extenders, but they have compairable PG. If you want repairing Armor, you're spending way more CPU/PG.
7. Yes, but you have less CPU/PG and slots to fit them as you split the availability with repairers.
Alright thank you for bringing law and order *cracks knuckles*
First of all, there are inherit perks and disadvantages to armor tanking. You get more tank, less speed, no inherent regen, less CPU costs and comparable PG costs, however regen should you choose has perks over shield. However module progression does need some work*
1. Yes locus grenades are good against armor but everyone has shields, so there is a rechargeable barrier there preventing all that grenade going straight into armor. Armor is second line defense not first. But both kind of weigh each other out. It's just that if you put all your chips into shields then come across a flux nade you might as well be paper in the wind. Locus grenades do not always take out all your armor like a flux always takes out all your shields.
2. Yeah but a shield tanker purest lets say will fill those slots with regulators. Yes I find it off that shield tanking (infantry) supports armor regeneration but here's the thing, Armor Repairers are CPU heavy and that will cause the shield tanker to make sacrifices. However their low slot capability does not work so well.
3. Well if you move like a slug then play like a slug. Don't try to act like a cheetah if you can only move so fast. Armor tanking requires a different style than shield tanking, one that calls for the sacrifice of mobility. Move like a chess piece, think like a chess piece. Shield tanking is a little more "in the moment" while armor tankers are more long haul kind of people.
4. Well the faster recharge is a perk of shield tanking, they have to have some good points you know.
5. As do shield tankers, if they want to preserve armor. Armor tank suits favor low slots so you should have extra room to fit that armor repairer and HEY! Your shields regen for free too! *Not all armor tankers pack a repper, sometimes it's better to go all out tank and have a buddy with a tool*
6. Yes you are, an inherit risk of armor tanking, but armor plates cost less cpu/pg and give more HP (significantly) so doesn't that sort of even out?
7. (first of all the HP per CPU/PG is significantly higher if you are shield tanking than armor tanking) Yes, but self repping armor is still a choice, you can do more tanking in its place. But lets suppose you do,
5 x Shield Extenders (supposing you can fit them) = 330 for 270 CPU / 55 PG
2x Complex plates = 330 for 60 CPU/24 PG
You see there ^ ? That's plenty of room for Complex armor reps, you have room for 3 but for comparable health!
I think #7 is a good example of why armor is working pretty much. |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
1200
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 14:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
Stephen Rao wrote:1. Just as it takes a Flux and then shooting to kill a Shield Tanker, it takes Shooting then Locus to kill an Armor Tanker. While the Locus isn't the definitive tool that Flux is against Shields, Flux cannot kill players on it's own (barring that glitch doesn't raise it's ugly head again). Both are tools to be used against a type of protection, however you cannot carry both (not an argument for or against, just a statement of fact). 2. I run a Militia or Basic Armor Repairer on my Caldari Medium Frame (*gasp*). While it doesn't provide a lot of health repair, if I take damage to my Armor and survive to get my shields back up and running, my Armor will steadily repair (while my shields take any additional shots) until I'm back to full. And the 20/1 CPU/PG is well worth the cost. While Shield Regulators can definitely be handy, I have SP to spend on other things than Level 5 Regulators... 3. Slugs are one thing, but adding 2 Complex Armor Plates turns your walking speed into your sprinting speed. While there are situations where speed isn't as necessary, after first contact, being able to react is an invaluable asset in defence, offense, support and objective control. Foresight and planning may allow you to account for one or two of these roles, but the speed restriction limits your overal flexibility. 4.  5. While you can run all Plates and rely on Repair Tools to keep you healthy, we're now using additional players. 6. They cost less CPU, PG is about equivalent. I can't argue that more HP isn't better, but that's ignoring the drawback (the "drawback" being a trait only held by Armor Plate Modules) 7. Except 2 Complex Plates = 230, still admirable (but then we get back to the 20% speed reduction...). I still like this standpoint on a change: ZDub 303 wrote:
No matter what, I feel like complex modules should be MORE efficient than basic modules for buff per penalty.
If we kept with the 3% move penalty / 65 armor you're looking at 0.046% move penalty per armor point... At which point advanced should be like 0.035% and complex at 0.03%...
So..
Basic, 65 Armor - 3% move penalty
Complex, 115 Armor - 3.45% move penalty.
That way, it is never more efficient to run basic > complex.
I don't even care if the Basic was 3%, Enhanced was 4% and Complex was 5% speed reduction, that'd be fine by me.
Oh **** me, sorry had a blond moment
Alright, for 3 complex plates you're getting 345 HP for less pg/cpu and stuff even with Complex reps on it. You wouldn't be able to fit any complex reps on the shield suit using all those extenders. BUT AGAIN SOMETHING WHACK ABOUT THOSE COMPLEX PLATES.
1. Well when you lose all armor you die, so that is a perk of having an anti-armor tool I guess, and a perk to armor tanking.
2. Yes and like I said, a little fishy that shield tanking and armor repair go hand in hand.
3. Slugs are an analogy. Heavies don't play like a scout right? Well why should an armor tanker play like a shield tanker? If mobility is now your weakness, then don't rely on it, don't play like you can move like Jet Li. You can't and you will die trying. Mobility is only as important to you as you make it out to be, so if mobility is really your thing, then shield tank!
4. Hey man, if armor's only weakness was the mobility reduction, it would probably be overpowered.
5. True, I guess I shouldn't have, but there is no outside tool in the game for infantry that pops your shields back to full perkiness, a tool that negates the recharge delay. On top of that armor tanking leads to WP farming....if you want to look at ti that way.
6. Not really ignoring the drawback because in my mind, like #3, you have to play like you are. There is no sense on depending/playing on your mobility when you lack it. (I will get to you arkena in due time)
7. Yeah again, blond moment, so now you're running 3 complex plates for less CPU/ more PG now (Powergrid and armor go hand in hand though) and you have room for repair modules BUT AGAIN SOMETHING WHACK ABOUT THOSE COMPLEX PLATES. They should probably be set at 150 so that 2x complex plates + a little something extra > 5 complex extenders.
Alright so with armor, you want the plate numbers and thuse CPU/PG per plate to be the same (which is whack on complex plates) and instead make them more mobile efficient? Honestly it's not a bad start but the PG is still going to be excessive on those complex plates. |
|
|
| |
|