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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Kitten Empress
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
306
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 18:52:00 -
[271] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon, you posts about regen make me want to punch a kitten. BECAUSE ARMOR HAS TO GIVE UP PLATES TO HAVE EVEN A MERE 5 HP/S REGEN, CALDARI COME ON TOP. Always. ALWAYS. No exceptions. Crunch the numbers yourself. |
Kitten Empress
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
306
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 18:53:00 -
[272] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Kitten Empress wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Kitten Empress wrote:CCP Remnant! First of all, thank you for finally balancing armor! Secondly, from numbers crunching, it seems Caldari are still on top. Whai. I will release the c¦¦r¦¦a¦¦c¦¦k¦¦e¦¦n¦¦ SoxFour to shout at you. We haven't yet seen the bonuses that are being put in, or the stats on the new stuff and tweaked stuff. I used logical numbers. I assumed ferroscale between shield and armor. I assumed reactive the same as shield, and I assumed in HP/s: 1/2/3. Still doesn't fix many many problems, like Caldari having more eHP and regeneration than armor because armor has to give up eHP for a mere 5hp/s. There also other tweaks like the bonuses and a speed penalty reduction. I'm not certain it'll fix things, but it's worth waiting for. These are welcome but won't fix the biggest problem. HP and Regen imbalance. Caldari get to enjoy the best of both worlds. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
159
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 18:55:00 -
[273] - Quote
x-KOR-x wrote:I agree with most that have been said in this post but i just want to point out something: - We can't forget that by only improving the Armor Modules we are also buffing the Shield based Dropsuits because they can also wear the Armor Modules. So, we definitely need some other type of Bonus to Armor Suits.
Not really because now armor can be stacked just as much as shields. |
Kitten Empress
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
306
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 18:58:00 -
[274] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:x-KOR-x wrote:I agree with most that have been said in this post but i just want to point out something: - We can't forget that by only improving the Armor Modules we are also buffing the Shield based Dropsuits because they can also wear the Armor Modules. So, we definitely need some other type of Bonus to Armor Suits. Not really because now armor can be stacked just as much as shields. And because armor tanks have more low slots in the end they both come out having the same EHP. No no, he's right. Shields still benefit more from it. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
159
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 19:04:00 -
[275] - Quote
Kitten Empress wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Kitten Empress wrote:CCP Remnant! First of all, thank you for finally balancing armor! Secondly, from numbers crunching, it seems Caldari are still on top. Whai. I will release the c¦¦r¦¦a¦¦c¦¦k¦¦e¦¦n¦¦ SoxFour to shout at you. We haven't yet seen the bonuses that are being put in, or the stats on the new stuff and tweaked stuff. I used logical numbers. I assumed ferroscale between shield and armor. I assumed reactive the same as shield, and I assumed in HP/s: 1/2/3. Still doesn't fix many many problems, like Caldari having more eHP and regeneration than armor because armor has to give up eHP for a mere 5hp/s.
I did the same thing, but I assumed reactive to have the same EHP as shields, and 2/3/4 repair. What I got was actually pretty interesting, I compared a Assault ck.0 and a Assault gk.0. They had the same exactly EHP, but the Gallente was repping armor 4 hp/s faster and the Caldari was drowning in CPU/PG costs trying to keep up while the Gallente was breezing through it, when averaged the Caldari had a bit higher total regeneration but it came at the cost of exhausting almost all of their CPU/PG. With these numbers it means that the Caldari will not able to use Reactive plates as good as the Gallente and must compensate elsewhere, meaning the Gallente will actually have a assumed advantaged when stacking these plates.
I compared the Logistics suit but I got a bag full of fail and OPness going to the CaLogi. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
159
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 19:05:00 -
[276] - Quote
Kitten Empress wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:x-KOR-x wrote:I agree with most that have been said in this post but i just want to point out something: - We can't forget that by only improving the Armor Modules we are also buffing the Shield based Dropsuits because they can also wear the Armor Modules. So, we definitely need some other type of Bonus to Armor Suits. Not really because now armor can be stacked just as much as shields. And because armor tanks have more low slots in the end they both come out having the same EHP. No no, he's right. Shields still benefit more from it.
Look up, this is why I say shields wont benefit as much as you think. These are assumed numbers so this is just a guess, so I could be wrong and you could be right so who knows |
D legendary hero
One-Armed Bandits Unclaimed.
95
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 19:16:00 -
[277] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:resistances are part of the answer.
removing mobility penalty on armor tanking is a bad idea if you add downsides to shields down the line.
30% damage resistance is quite a bit of resistance.
it would add 150 HP (taking my base EHP to 1162 with no mods) to my fatsuit equivalent before I ever thought about welding on the dumpster walls I found in the trash. And that's only if that resistance did not apply to shields. If it DID apply to my shields my no-module EHP would be a whopping 1312 EHP. Just a bit broken once I start adding defenses, because I can already out-firepower most heavy tanked assault/logi within my optimal.
I use plates and am pretty spectacularly successful with them. However that's not the problem. We're looking at ways to balance armor without making it OP AND... without making Armor tanking the same as shield tanking.
You're banging on a point that will push fatties into the OP zone sharply. But that does not address the overall balance issues of armor tanking. Now that we have armor-tanked amarr/gallente assault and logis as well as medium frames Armor tanking is no longer a "Heavy problem." It is now "everybody's problem."
a single clip of the most basic assault rifle can still take out a heavy with no mods but a 30% resistance. even with an 1312 ehp, a regular AR does 387.5 dps, with a clip of 60 thats 1860 hp per clip. this excludes headshots.
why I am I using heavies as an example for how effective resistance can be at balancing? because resistance can be used to offset the speed penalty.
if there was a proportional damage resistance increase with the speed penalty, that could balance out armor tanking for everyone.
a mild increase to amor repair rates would help put it on par with shield tanking. each has its advante but would be balanced against each other. namely:
shield tankers = have no penalty to movement speed, have their shields come back fast after the depletion time and recharging in larger chunks armor tankers = have penalty to speed, increased damage resistance, armor is constantly repairing at a slow rate (slightly faster than it is now)
the model should be the same. both should effectively do the same thing. but they differ in how they accomplish their objective. the fundamental differences make for interesting game play. but ideally in a shield tanker vs an armor tanker of the same EHP battle, one should not out class the other; except through skill. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
161
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 19:21:00 -
[278] - Quote
D legendary hero wrote:
a single clip of the most basic assault rifle can still take out a heavy with no mods but a 30% resistance. even with an 1312 ehp, a regular AR does 387.5 dps, with a clip of 60 thats 1860 hp per clip. this excludes headshots.
Assuming every shot lands, and the user doesn't run away when the see the heavy. |
Kitten Empress
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
307
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 19:21:00 -
[279] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Kitten Empress wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Kitten Empress wrote:CCP Remnant! First of all, thank you for finally balancing armor! Secondly, from numbers crunching, it seems Caldari are still on top. Whai. I will release the c¦¦r¦¦a¦¦c¦¦k¦¦e¦¦n¦¦ SoxFour to shout at you. We haven't yet seen the bonuses that are being put in, or the stats on the new stuff and tweaked stuff. I used logical numbers. I assumed ferroscale between shield and armor. I assumed reactive the same as shield, and I assumed in HP/s: 1/2/3. Still doesn't fix many many problems, like Caldari having more eHP and regeneration than armor because armor has to give up eHP for a mere 5hp/s. I did the same thing, but I assumed reactive to have the same EHP as shields, and 2/3/4 repair. What I got was actually pretty interesting, I compared a Assault ck.0 and a Assault gk.0. They had the same exactly EHP, but the Gallente was repping armor 4 hp/s faster and the Caldari was drowning in CPU/PG costs trying to keep up while the Gallente was breezing through it, when averaged the Caldari had a bit higher total regeneration but it came at the cost of exhausting almost all of their CPU/PG. With these numbers it means that the Caldari will not able to use Reactive plates as good as the Gallente and must compensate elsewhere, meaning the Gallente will actually have a assumed advantage when stacking these plates, which is awesome . I compared the Logistics suit but I got a bag full of fail and OPness going to the CaLogi. 2/3/4 is a bit too optimistic considering that reps are: 2/3/5. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
161
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 19:23:00 -
[280] - Quote
Kitten Empress wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Kitten Empress wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Kitten Empress wrote:CCP Remnant! First of all, thank you for finally balancing armor! Secondly, from numbers crunching, it seems Caldari are still on top. Whai. I will release the c¦¦r¦¦a¦¦c¦¦k¦¦e¦¦n¦¦ SoxFour to shout at you. We haven't yet seen the bonuses that are being put in, or the stats on the new stuff and tweaked stuff. I used logical numbers. I assumed ferroscale between shield and armor. I assumed reactive the same as shield, and I assumed in HP/s: 1/2/3. Still doesn't fix many many problems, like Caldari having more eHP and regeneration than armor because armor has to give up eHP for a mere 5hp/s. I did the same thing, but I assumed reactive to have the same EHP as shields, and 2/3/4 repair. What I got was actually pretty interesting, I compared a Assault ck.0 and a Assault gk.0. They had the same exactly EHP, but the Gallente was repping armor 4 hp/s faster and the Caldari was drowning in CPU/PG costs trying to keep up while the Gallente was breezing through it, when averaged the Caldari had a bit higher total regeneration but it came at the cost of exhausting almost all of their CPU/PG. With these numbers it means that the Caldari will not able to use Reactive plates as good as the Gallente and must compensate elsewhere, meaning the Gallente will actually have a assumed advantage when stacking these plates, which is awesome . I compared the Logistics suit but I got a bag full of fail and OPness going to the CaLogi. 2/3/4 is a bit too optimistic considering that reps are: 2/3/5. I think your numbers are closer to what the plates will be, but the reason I used mine was so total regeneration would balance at tier 5, regardless your numbers in Armor HP regen would set my regen stats 3-5 HP/s less, which isn't that big of a difference. |
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D legendary hero
One-Armed Bandits Unclaimed.
95
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 19:25:00 -
[281] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:CCP Remnant wrote:d legenday hero wrote:
what heavies really need is resistance to damage taken, supplemented with a limited increase in EHP.
We've considered this, but the problem is that right now there is no good feedback for damage resistance in the game. Adding this without all the necessary UI improvements would likely just end up with the majority of players thinking their weapons suck instead of understanding they're just less effective against certain targets. The current target intel is a very barebones implementation. It needs to be a lot better. Why not have a visual indicator to represent efficiency on the weapon radial indicator, as in next to the ammo count or something. As you point different targets it would fill-up or empty based on your target's efficiency rating. I think there's something in this idea. Perhaps a crosshair effect?
there we go. thats constructive. it could just be tacked onto the efficacy rating when you aim at your enemy. normally it tells you your chance of success, if that rating factored in resistance, or if resistance had its own rating in that area it would easily fix the public ignorance (i use this word in the dictionary definition sense without the connotation of condescension) toward resistance. |
D legendary hero
One-Armed Bandits Unclaimed.
95
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 19:29:00 -
[282] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:D legendary hero wrote:
a single clip of the most basic assault rifle can still take out a heavy with no mods but a 30% resistance. even with an 1312 ehp, a regular AR does 387.5 dps, with a clip of 60 thats 1860 hp per clip. this excludes headshots.
Assuming every shot lands, and the user doesn't run away when the see the heavy.
the idea is to create more skilled players, not cater to wimps. if, it only takes 3 extra bullets to kill a heavy than to kill a meduim frame there is no point to using it.
likewise, with armor tankers with all the penalties and draw backs, if it you only can take 3-4 more bullents whats the point to using it? |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
162
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 19:31:00 -
[283] - Quote
D legendary hero wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:D legendary hero wrote:
a single clip of the most basic assault rifle can still take out a heavy with no mods but a 30% resistance. even with an 1312 ehp, a regular AR does 387.5 dps, with a clip of 60 thats 1860 hp per clip. this excludes headshots.
Assuming every shot lands, and the user doesn't run away when the see the heavy. the idea is to create more skilled players, not cater to wimps. if, it only takes 3 extra bullets to kill a heavy than to kill a meduim frame there is no point to using it. likewise, with armor tankers with all the penalties and draw backs, if it you only can take 3-4 more bullents whats the point to using it?
There is a difference between being a wimp, and knowing when you can't win the fight.
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Kitten Empress
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
307
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 19:32:00 -
[284] - Quote
D legendary hero wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:D legendary hero wrote:
a single clip of the most basic assault rifle can still take out a heavy with no mods but a 30% resistance. even with an 1312 ehp, a regular AR does 387.5 dps, with a clip of 60 thats 1860 hp per clip. this excludes headshots.
Assuming every shot lands, and the user doesn't run away when the see the heavy. the idea is to create more skilled players, not cater to wimps. if, it only takes 3 extra bullets to kill a heavy than to kill a meduim frame there is no point to using it. likewise, with armor tankers with all the penalties and draw backs, if it you only can take 3-4 more bullents whats the point to using it? Mind you, the original Heavy was able to go toe to toe with a HAV in terms of eHP. The problem was that he also had a HMG... So... Pretty much undefeatable. So the eHP has been reduced to what you are seeing now. They are planning on bringing back the true Heavy, however I think they will put some limits on its Anti infantry power. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
953
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 19:54:00 -
[285] - Quote
Kitten Empress wrote: They are planning on bringing back the true Heavy, however I think they will put some limits on its Anti infantry power.
they already have. Range.
Plus the forge gun bites ass killing infantry. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
162
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 19:59:00 -
[286] - Quote
The range was brought down but then back up, so again it is pretty hard to outrun a HMG the only way to get away is to duck and cover and hope he doesn't have any kinetic catalyzers. |
EXASTRA INVICTAS
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
81
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 20:16:00 -
[287] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:EXASTRA INVICTAS, I think you're explaining this idea quite well. It's a nice idea, and I'd say go for it, but I worry that it'd be too harsh and also it wouldn't fit with shields. They're for burst tanking more than anything else. Feel free to just call me ExAstra, I don't know why my name is in all caps and also I can't use the same name in EVE as DUST. It's shorter and has a nicer ring to it.
Anyway, I understand what you're saying about burst tanking for shields, trust me. In EVE they achieve a similar feel by tanking less per cycle than armor but cycling almost twice as fast. They also regenerate HP at the beginning of a cycle instead of at the end, like armor.
And given that I want DUST to at least feel like it's part of the EVE universe, and not just a game that lets EVE players shoot at stuff they can't see (or see the impacts of), trust me in that I want to see the game balanced and with relation to EVE lore, at least where necessary or sensible!
I will note again that, even with my proposed "nerf" to the shield extender modules, shields would be regenerating over 2x faster minimum than an armor suit with 2 complex reps. Given that shield tank suits also begin regenerating shields 2 seconds quicker than armor tanking suits, and that they'll regen a larger amount per "burst", the burst tanking feel remains intact and untrifled with. ~4HP/s for shields isn't a big deal. For armor, it obviously is.
I don't think complex armor reps need a real buff to the speed with which they repair. If anything, only 1 or 2 hp/s is more than enough, anything higher than 2 is becoming too much. Actually, 2 is probably too much.
My goal here isn't to nerf shield tanking or make it feel any different than it currently is. A shield tanker really won't notice that his shields are only bursting 21hp at a time instead of 25 (extender nerfed regen of 21 on Caldari is still 1hp/s faster than Gallente base recharge rate). The difference is also further mitigated by skills, where Assault suits get a regen bonus and there are skills that affect regen rate as well. My goal is only to give shields a drawback that WON'T change how shields work in the overall concept, or change the way they feel to the shield tanker, but still give the armor tank an advantage in certain scenarios (as you pointed out there aren't really any advantages to armor tanking right now).
Keep in mind that armor tanking in DUST is also flirting with death, as we don't have the option to hit zero. |
Kitten Empress
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
310
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 20:19:00 -
[288] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Kitten Empress wrote: They are planning on bringing back the true Heavy, however I think they will put some limits on its Anti infantry power.
they already have. Range. Plus the forge gun bites ass killing infantry. False. The range is lowered for everyone, and so far HMG still works nicely at its job - point defense. I doubt you will even get to have the HMG. 2500+ eHP AND a weapon that can deal 600+ DPS? Unless it had SMG range, this would make heavies the new TAC AR. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
953
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 20:22:00 -
[289] - Quote
range was not brought back up.
assault HMGs don't count.
we still have about a 30 meter optimal, 50 ish meter max. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
953
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 20:25:00 -
[290] - Quote
Kitten Empress wrote: False. The range is lowered for everyone, and so far HMG still works nicely at its job - point defense. I doubt you will even get to have the HMG. 2500+ eHP AND a weapon that can deal 600+ DPS? Unless it had SMG range, this would make heavies the new TAC AR.
and why do you say we will lose the HMG?
I've never seen any indication that CCP intends to pump heavies to 2500 EHP.
Pics or it didn't happen Jenza |
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention
1094
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 21:00:00 -
[291] - Quote
Informational note for the overall thread, the Logi LAV can sport a shield transporter so while there is no infantry mod for repping dropsuit shields there is in fact a method for repping dropsuit shields already present in game.
This does make shield external shield repping solutions less common than armor but not absent.
Cheers, Cross |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
954
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 22:27:00 -
[292] - Quote
if armor is fixed so it is as good as shields... I must stress I do not want them to be identical... ever...
then there is no reason to not have a handheld infantry shield transporter to boost caldari/minmatar dropsuits in the field. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
167
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 22:49:00 -
[293] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:if armor is fixed so it is as good as shields... I must stress I do not want them to be identical... ever...
then there is no reason to not have a handheld infantry shield transporter to boost caldari/minmatar dropsuits in the field.
Not even the people vouching for a fix to armor want this lol. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
836
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 23:36:00 -
[294] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:if armor is fixed so it is as good as shields... I must stress I do not want them to be identical... ever...
then there is no reason to not have a handheld infantry shield transporter to boost caldari/minmatar dropsuits in the field.
I do agree. Armour needs to be a viable alternative, though, for different situations. I see armour as being slower and with less regen, but getting significantly larger HP compared to shields. Right now, it doesn't get more HP and the tradeoffs are too harsh, in addition to a few other factors. |
Cass Barr
Red Star. EoN.
138
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 00:01:00 -
[295] - Quote
So long as insta-kill contact Locus grenades exist (and do 600 damage to armor), armor will be inferior to shields. |
JonnyAugust
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
228
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 00:32:00 -
[296] - Quote
I love the ideas to make armor tanking more viable. excellent arguments for how shield > armor and how to fix the disparity. +100 if i could. |
General Tiberius1
ZionTCD Unclaimed.
751
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 02:55:00 -
[297] - Quote
holy crap this is awesome. +1 OP. CCP hired mintchip. you DEFINETLY deserve something. best info on armor VS shield in forever |
D legendary hero
One-Armed Bandits Unclaimed.
119
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 03:49:00 -
[298] - Quote
bump1+ |
Chinduko
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
171
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 04:48:00 -
[299] - Quote
+1
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
842
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 08:59:00 -
[300] - Quote
Cass Barr wrote:So long as insta-kill contact Locus grenades exist (and do 600 damage to armor), armor will be inferior to shields. I would have added this in but I'm not sure how bad it'll get, yet. I suspect that when the isk ones come in things will be very very bad. I'd rather not judge until I've actually seen the effect though. |
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