| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 [12] 13 :: one page |
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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1135
   |
Posted - 2013.06.11 21:44:00 -
[331] - Quote
So assuming these actually turn out to be final values (look at 1:08), there are a few things to be said and a couple to be asked as well.
First current plates, they still need a balance pass to enhance their internal balance (from base to complex within the line) and their contextual balance (as compared with shields, after all even if the new plates bring more parity to the armor line as a whole they do nothing to change the balance issues with the current plates).
Second Ferroscale Plates, text in the video is a bit grainy for me but it looks very much like these will be low slot shield mods with 6 less HP per mod and higher fitting requirements than the current complex plates. They do maintain the higher load on PG as opposed to CPU when compared with shields (a good thing IMO since it keeps the lines diverse) but this puts armor tank in an even tighter bind when it comes to PG. The new plates as shown in the video do seem to be a boon for scouts but I wonder about the comparative fitting numbers both between Complex Plates/Complex Ferroscale and between Complex Ferroscale/Complex Extenders.
The other aspect here is base tank between armor vs shields derived from slot layout, and suit/racial bonuses.
Right now outside of the Amarr Logi there's essentially no bonus to armor tank from racial skills, the only arguable exception being the +1 HP/s from the proto Logi role bonus. This means in essence that for everyone not playing Logi the new plates do nothing to increase the validity of an armor tank, further this omission of armor tank skill buffs on armor related racial suits will push any "slayers" who want to armor tank into a position of looking to the Logi line more favorably than the Assault.
There are already generally unfounded cries to nerf the Logi due to the underwhelming racial/proto skills possessed by the Assault line, we need less of this skill buff bias not more.
There is a counter point, armor tankers can now stack the 60HP plates in low slots and stack damage mods in the highs, but while this is a good balancing element between the mods it once again distorts under the weight of suit skill buffs as due to the underwhelming Assault suit buffs many 'slayers' may now look on the Gal Logi suit as the new Cal Logi 'slayer' fit. Additional counter point would be the Min Assault built in rep of 1 HP/s, this will be a net win for the Minmatar Assault suits.
Reactive Plates These plates sport the new 'higher than Complex Plates' fittings costs of 36 CPU/15 PG.
For that price you get 45 HP (20 HP less than a basic plate with 1% less speed reduction) 2 HP/s (the value of a basic repper mod). Total cost for those two items 30 CPU/2 PG, that's 6 CPU/13PG more spent to in essence save one low slot.
Assuming the rep from these plates is buffed by the Amarr Logi racial bonus this may help that suit out a little bit but the buff is rather minimal.
The more fittings cost for free slots idea is a novel concept and I actual like it for flavor and flex however I'm not sure how this applies to current suits. On balance the Reactive plates with their minimal speed debuff and their 2-for-1 slot count may be a net gain for the Assault suits as it would allow them some on board reps, a bit more HP and not hit their speed that much, while leaving some slots free for other things like Regulators, Kinetic Catalyzes, et al. If combined with a bit more 'gank' from some of the Assault skill buffs, or some armor specific Assault skill buffs on the Amarr/Gallente suits this could help even the field nicely. Also the speed penilty on these plates is low enough for some scout builds to adopt the use of one for on board reps, or for Heavies in some roles/squad configurations to really benefit.
All in all the Reactive Plates seem to be the big winner in the new changes with the single class gaining the least utility from them being the Logi who already have on board reps via skills, will have fewer reps to give out as self rep becomes more common and who (outside the Gal Logi) won't have the slots + PG to really make significant use of them for the most part.
Final thoughts the new plates seem like good additions and they'll help some of the problem aspects present but other changes are most certainly needed to bring armor/shields into balance. Further care must be taken not to have the new mods create another misplaced wave of nerf threads as racial skills distort overall game effects.
That's my current analysis assuming that the stats in the video turn out to be the same stats upon release of the new mods.
0.02 ISK
Cross |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
888
|
Posted - 2013.06.11 21:55:00 -
[332] - Quote
Cross Atu, your good posting continues to impress.
I think that CCP miss addressing the core issue with these, and that they're simply underpowered, even compared to current options.
I'd respond in more depth but I'm typing up a large post regarding this anyway. |
shaman oga
Nexus Balusa Horizon
DARKSTAR ARMY
170
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Posted - 2013.06.11 23:02:00 -
[333] - Quote
I don't think that the values shown in video will be the final values, later in the same video, they show a PRO commander dropsuit and it's quite UP for being a PRO. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
179
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Posted - 2013.06.11 23:29:00 -
[334] - Quote
Do you think this would maybe help a little to solve this problem.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86590&find=unread |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
League of Infamy
192
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Posted - 2013.06.12 04:14:00 -
[335] - Quote
BUMP BECAUSE CCP NEEDS TO READ THIS THREAD FROM PAGE 1 TO LAST |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1145
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 04:35:00 -
[336] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Cross Atu, your good posting continues to impress.
I think that CCP miss addressing the core issue with these, and that they're simply underpowered, even compared to current options.
I'd respond in more depth but I'm typing up a large post regarding this anyway.
Thank you very much  I do try to maintain quality standards for my posts (glad it's working so far  )
Speaking of high quality posts related to this issue Breakin Stuff has a thread going with some very worthwhile discussion happening I'd advise everyone to give it a look.
Oh and Arkena Wyrnspire make sure to link your large post here once completed, I want to check that out 
Cheers,
Cross |
Talos Alomar
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
929
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Posted - 2013.06.12 04:52:00 -
[337] - Quote
Let's keep the dream alive that armor/shields will be balanced some day. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
League of Infamy
194
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Posted - 2013.06.12 04:56:00 -
[338] - Quote
Honestly... I have lost all hope that CCP will learn how to fix things, all they needed was to tweak some numbers, to read some posts we did the number crunching, we saw all the possibilities but they didn't listen and they don't care. If this update goes through with those values, I'm just going to disappear of the game and of these forums. I am tired of CCP just sticking it to us players, and maybe I am wrong, maybe those numbers in that video are place holders but knowing CCP this is exactly how they want it, and their idea of "balance" honestly the only hope left is giving us armor tanks a respec so we can switch Caldari/Minmatar.
EDIT: When I say CCP I mean CCP Shanghai, not the entire company. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1146
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Posted - 2013.06.12 05:10:00 -
[339] - Quote
Talos Alomar wrote:Let's keep the dream alive that armor/shields will be balanced some day.
Sometimes you just need the right motivation
In honesty if those values are actual and not place holders they either need to be revised or CCP needs to release a detailed explanation of their intended role and balance for Armor Tanking so that we can provide feedback within the proper context. As well as provide feedback on the intended context itself.
Cheers,
Cross |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
League of Infamy
201
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Posted - 2013.06.12 15:18:00 -
[340] - Quote
bump
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
900
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 15:22:00 -
[341] - Quote
I am currently writing up a larger thread, which will supercede this one.
Don't worry about bumping this one anymore. Thanks though. |
bacon blaster
BIG BAD W0LVES
Eternal Syndicate
47
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Posted - 2013.06.12 15:27:00 -
[342] - Quote
TOO BAD, BUMPING ANYWAY
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1151
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 17:55:00 -
[343] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I am currently writing up a larger thread, which will supercede this one. Don't worry about bumping this one anymore. Thanks though.
Please link thread here when complete |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1536
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 19:00:00 -
[344] - Quote
Lolshields
Sincerely~ Flux grenade |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
904
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 19:03:00 -
[345] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Lolshields
Sincerely~ Flux grenade
Lolarmour
Sincerely~ Locus grenade |
Eldest Dragon
D3LTA ACADEMY
32
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Posted - 2013.06.12 19:14:00 -
[346] - Quote
Well I agree with a lot of post but the one main thing here id like to say is, at least dont pretend that fitting damage mods arent important, there more than just a little bonus for armour tankers. ;) |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
904
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 19:23:00 -
[347] - Quote
Eldest Dragon wrote:Well I agree with a lot of post but the one main thing here id like to say is, at least dont pretend that fitting damage mods arent important, there more than just a little bonus for armour tankers. ;)
I covered this in the OP.
Shield tankers are still more effective even when dropping extenders to fit damage modules.
And also, a damage module is slightly less effective than a shield extender, even if you're landing every hit. |
D legendary hero
One-Armed Bandits
Unclaimed.
160
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Posted - 2013.06.13 06:33:00 -
[348] - Quote
^^indeed. |
EXASTRA INVICTAS
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
117
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Posted - 2013.06.13 12:21:00 -
[349] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I am currently writing up a larger thread, which will supercede this one. Don't worry about bumping this one anymore. Thanks though.
Perhaps provide a link when the thread is made? Because with the newly "unveiled" equipment, we need a place to put numbers for CCP again. |
Stephen Rao
Intrepidus XI
Omega Commission
34
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Posted - 2013.06.13 12:30:00 -
[350] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Lolshields
Sincerely~ Flux grenade Lolarmour Sincerely~ Locus grenade ~ Mass Driver
~ Flaylock
~ HMG
~ SMG
Fixed that for you, the anti-armour crew doesn't like being under-represented  |
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
927
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 15:02:00 -
[351] - Quote
Stephen Rao wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Lolshields
Sincerely~ Flux grenade Lolarmour Sincerely~ Locus grenade ~ Mass Driver
~ Flaylock
~ HMG
~ SMG Fixed that for you, the anti-armour crew doesn't like being under-represented
Ha, indeed. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
927
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 15:04:00 -
[352] - Quote
EXASTRA INVICTAS wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I am currently writing up a larger thread, which will supercede this one. Don't worry about bumping this one anymore. Thanks though. Perhaps provide a link when the thread is made? Because with the newly "unveiled" equipment, we need a place to put numbers for CCP again.
Yeah, I'm working on this now.
It's getting quite long, and it won't be finished for a while.
It's a bad sign when it needs a contents page to make it easier to navigate. |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
163
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Posted - 2013.06.14 05:44:00 -
[353] - Quote
bump |
Felix Totenkreuz
Intrepidus XI
Omega Commission
11
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Posted - 2013.06.14 08:38:00 -
[354] - Quote
What I found a bit counter-intuitive in this game is how I as a new player come into it thinking "Oh, there are a lot of weapons being used which deal extra damage to armour, and grenades always do...I know! I buff up my armour! That'll counter..." BAM DEAD!
Because increasing your armour doesn't increase your armour in practice. Increasing your shields does, in order to protect your armour like some sort of eggshell. And by the time most of us figure that out you are 1-2m SP invested into the plates and reppers. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
944
|
Posted - 2013.06.14 08:46:00 -
[355] - Quote
Felix Totenkreuz wrote:What I found a bit counter-intuitive in this game is how I as a new player come into it thinking "Oh, there are a lot of weapons being used which deal extra damage to armour, and grenades always do...I know! I buff up my armour! That'll counter..." BAM DEAD!
Because increasing your armour doesn't increase your armour in practice. Increasing your shields does, in order to protect your armour like some sort of eggshell. And by the time most of us figure that out you are 1-2m SP invested into the plates and reppers.
This is unfortunately true. Explosive weapons do absurd amounts of damage to armour, enough to shred even the heaviest tank (which isn't that heavy) that can be fitted with the current modules. It doesn't help that the mobility reduction means you're easier to hit with these weapons. |
Faquira Bleuetta
0uter.Heaven
League of Infamy
11
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Posted - 2013.06.14 11:19:00 -
[356] - Quote
Lower the Shield Recharge Rate about 57 % for all class suit (include racial also) , make Shield Recharger to Infantry Low Powered Module instead of high slot. and remove the useless bonus of most racial suit (each racial of class suit should have the same bonus 5 % per lvl) :::example All class Gallente dropsuit would have + 25 % to Reactive Plates efficiency , Caldari would have 25 % bonus to shield extender, amarr would get a 25% bonus to standard armor plate and Minmatar get 12% sprint and 5% movement bonus.
Also rep mod should be in high slot not low slot this would force the amarr and gallente to armor tank only .Reduce standard plate speed penalty to 1%(basic) ,3%(enhanced),5% (complex) and 10 or 15 % hp buff
getting Shield recharger in low mod would ''force'' the caldari user to not armor tanking because of the low Shield recharger rate.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
950
|
Posted - 2013.06.14 12:17:00 -
[357] - Quote
Faquira Bleuetta wrote:Lower the Shield Recharge Rate about 57 % for all class suit (include racial also) , make Shield Recharger to Infantry Low Powered Module instead of high slot. and remove the useless bonus of most racial suit (each racial of class suit should have the same bonus 5 % per lvl) :::example All class Gallente dropsuit would have + 25 % to Reactive Plates efficiency , Caldari would have 25 % bonus to shield extender, amarr would get a 25% bonus to standard armor plate and Minmatar get 12% sprint and 5% movement bonus.
Also rep mod should be in high slot not low slot this would force the amarr and gallente to armor tank only .Reduce standard plate speed penalty to 1%(basic) ,3%(enhanced),5% (complex) and 10 or 15 % hp buff
getting Shield recharger in low mod would ''force'' the caldari user to not armor tanking because of the low Shield recharger rate.
I'm not really sure that would work.
Essentially, it would make both playstyles very similar, even if it did become balanced, and that's not the point. |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
165
|
Posted - 2013.06.14 12:22:00 -
[358] - Quote
if shield tankers werent able to use sheild regulators, and Armor tankers were able to use Armor repers then that could make a difference. also, armor repers need to heal at least +2 hp more and the skill needs to be 5% efficacy per lvl.
lets face it, armor tankers still get shields that recharge pretty fast anyway.
shield tankers on the other hand just have thier shields and once those are agone their dead in the water. but being able to replenish 500 shields in less than 2 seconds, while the armor tanker has to wait 10seconds with a movement penalty is abit harsh a contrast. |
Faquira Bleuetta
0uter.Heaven
League of Infamy
11
|
Posted - 2013.06.14 12:26:00 -
[359] - Quote
wutt but this is the only way to make it work and all the other player suggestion sux compared to mine . |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
950
|
Posted - 2013.06.14 12:27:00 -
[360] - Quote
Faquira Bleuetta wrote:wutt but this is the only way to make it work and all the other player suggestion sux compared to mine .
Ah, a troll post. I see.
Go back under your bridge, please. |
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