I've always been puzzled how the Armour Plates are the only module with a drawback. I've heard some explain this as weight slowing you down, but in the far future why do we make things stronger by making them heavier? Why can't we just use more durable material that isn't made out of concrete? (better material would explain the increased cost in ISK as well as the increased CPU/PG strain on the suit).

As it seems counter-productive to complain about the speed penalty (as I'm sure it is a balancing factor), I'll focus on the way that it scales as I think it is absolutely absurde. The basic module grants you 65 hp to armor and a 3% speed reduction. This module is, in my opinion, the BEST armor plate you can purchase. While the Advanced and Proto armor plates grant more HP, they also take an inordinate amount of speed with them. Here's the current spread between HP gained, Speed Reduction, and SP required to use these modules:

Module________________Armor HP__Speed Decrease__SP Investment
Basic Armor Plates_________65________3%____________55,970
Advanced Armor Plates_____85________5%___________242,510
Complex Amor Plates______115_______10%___________932,760

So while Complex Plates offer less than 2x the protection of Basic Plates, they reduce your speed by more than 3x!! Advanced Plates aren't any better, giving you 1.2x more protection, again at the cost of almost 2x speed reduction over the Basic Plates.

While using a Complex Armor Plate does save you a module slot, it costs you almost 1mil SP to get a massive speed reduction that is far worse than 2 Basic Armor Plates in armor granted, speed penalty, SP investment and ISK cost.



I like ZDub's suggestion better than mine (as it has math and stuff), so while you'll see it later in this thread:

*facepalm*
The OP is using a rigged set of data where the thesis is being supported but if the OP was to include PG/CPU costs then the data would be more wholesome and thus be a valid statement (given that the argument still holds up which I suspect won't)

You can't purposefully leave out data and make claims.

If we neglect the fact that there has never been a sighting of Godzilla ever in human history, and show nothing but movie footage, Godzilla exists to this day!

But that's thinking in terms of one dimension.
How much regeneration can you get if your CPU/PG is maxed? How much HP when maxed? How many modules are you able to fit at all to aid in your tanking given CPU/PG costs?

Yes ISK cost is important too, because if something is more cost effective then that is a point to consider!

All the good points about armor are overlooked because of some obsession that no matter how you look, shields win.
Shields are first line of defense, but after they are gone, there is a delay before recharge (10 seconds) where you are vulnerable to armor.
Shield tankers experience the following disadvantages:
1. Flux Nade Vulnerability: Their primary defense can be vanquished in an instant and their raw un-tanked armor underbelly is exposed.
2. Can Not Regenerate Armor
3. Sum Tank additions are less than Armor tank additions
4. Recharge is halted when damage is taken, at any level of significance
5. Have a delay before recharge is restarted, two different times, one which is longer than the normal when all shields are depleted.
6. High CPU/PG costs for modules, causing stress on fitting capabilities or sacrifice of tank
7. HP per Module compared to CPU/PG costs is significantly higher than shield[fixed] tanking.

These were the things I saw that drew me to armor tanking and I am perfectly fine with armor tanking. I will admit that something is screwy about Complex plates (in other words module progression) but that is where my problems with armor tanking sort of cease.

1. Yes locus grenades are good against armor but everyone has shields, so there is a rechargeable barrier there preventing all that grenade going straight into armor. Armor is second line defense not first. But both kind of weigh each other out. It's just that if you put all your chips into shields then come across a flux nade you might as well be paper in the wind. Locus grenades do not always take out all your armor like a flux always takes out all your shields.
2. Yeah but a shield tanker purest lets say will fill those slots with regulators. Yes I find it off that shield tanking (infantry) supports armor regeneration but here's the thing, Armor Repairers are CPU heavy and that will cause the shield tanker to make sacrifices. However their low slot capability does not work so well.
3. Well if you move like a slug then play like a slug. Don't try to act like a cheetah if you can only move so fast. Armor tanking requires a different style than shield tanking, one that calls for the sacrifice of mobility. Move like a chess piece, think like a chess piece. Shield tanking is a little more "in the moment" while armor tankers are more long haul kind of people.
4. Well the faster recharge is a perk of shield tanking, they have to have some good points you know.
5. As do shield tankers, if they want to preserve armor. Armor tank suits favor low slots so you should have extra room to fit that armor repairer and HEY! Your shields regen for free too! *Not all armor tankers pack a repper, sometimes it's better to go all out tank and have a buddy with a tool*
6. Yes you are, an inherit risk of armor tanking, but armor plates cost less cpu/pg and give more HP (significantly) so doesn't that sort of even out?
7. (first of all the HP per CPU/PG is significantly higher if you are shield tanking than armor tanking) Yes, but self repping armor is still a choice, you can do more tanking in its place. But lets suppose you do,
5 x Shield Extenders (supposing you can fit them) = 330 for 270 CPU / 55 PG
2x Complex plates = 330 for 60 CPU/24 PG

You see there ^ ? That's plenty of room for Complex armor reps, you have room for 3 but for comparable health!

I think #7 is a good example of why armor is working pretty much.

EDIT: I left out a crucial point that armor is slower than shield tanking (if you choose to use plates). That is what equalizes the playing field and again, move like a slug, play like a slug.

No matter what, I feel like complex modules should be MORE efficient than basic modules for buff per penalty.

If we kept with the 3% move penalty / 65 armor you're looking at 0.046% move penalty per armor point... At which point advanced should be like 0.035% and complex at 0.03%...

So..
Basic, 65 Armor - 3% move penalty
Complex, 115 Armor - 3.45% move penalty.

That way, it is never more efficient to run basic > complex.

Oh **** me, sorry had a blond moment

Alright, for 3 complex plates you're getting 345 HP for less pg/cpu and stuff even with Complex reps on it. You wouldn't be able to fit any complex reps on the shield suit using all those extenders. BUT AGAIN SOMETHING WHACK ABOUT THOSE COMPLEX PLATES.
1. Well when you lose all armor you die, so that is a perk of having an anti-armor tool I guess, and a perk to armor tanking.
2. Yes and like I said, a little fishy that shield tanking and armor repair go hand in hand.
3. Slugs are an analogy. Heavies don't play like a scout right? Well why should an armor tanker play like a shield tanker? If mobility is now your weakness, then don't rely on it, don't play like you can move like Jet Li. You can't and you will die trying. Mobility is only as important to you as you make it out to be, so if mobility is really your thing, then shield tank!
4. Hey man, if armor's only weakness was the mobility reduction, it would probably be overpowered.
5. True, I guess I shouldn't have, but there is no outside tool in the game for infantry that pops your shields back to full perkiness, a tool that negates the recharge delay. On top of that armor tanking leads to WP farming....if you want to look at ti that way.
6. Not really ignoring the drawback because in my mind, like #3, you have to play like you are. There is no sense on depending/playing on your mobility when you lack it. (I will get to you arkena in due time)
7. Yeah again, blond moment, so now you're running 3 complex plates for less CPU/ more PG now (Powergrid and armor go hand in hand though) and you have room for repair modules BUT AGAIN SOMETHING WHACK ABOUT THOSE COMPLEX PLATES. They should probably be set at 150 so that 2x complex plates + a little something extra > 5 complex extenders.

Alright so with armor, you want the plate numbers and thuse CPU/PG per plate to be the same (which is whack on complex plates) and instead make them more mobile efficient? Honestly it's not a bad start but the PG is still going to be excessive on those complex plates.

Confirmed for SoxFour read:
[17:55] <@[CCP]FoxFour> Yup, I read it yesterday but decided that I really shouldn't respond in my intoxicated state
[18:01] <@[CCP]FoxFour> Yea, my response is mainly "holy **** I know understand things better, but I don't handle this stuff so let me pass this thread on to those who do this stuff"

Lolarmour

Sincerely~ Locus grenade
~ Mass Driver
~ Flaylock
~ HMG
~ SMG