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Laurent Cazaderon
What The French
CRONOS.
1518
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Posted - 2013.06.06 09:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
What bugs me with this thread is that everything in it has been said many many many many many times before. By before i mean for more than a year. But people were just NOT using armor except heavies as any suit was pretty much shield oriented as soon as T2, B-s and Vk1 landed. And even before, people were just mostly using shield.
Nonetheless, OP's work is solid and well detailled. So Kudos. I'm gonna try giving a reply worth the worthy of it.
This shield vs armor debate is tough to break down as you need to take into account an awfull lot of different criteria. Things as they are could be balanced with only a few changes. Too many could simply turn the OPiness the other way around.
 My main issue with shield, and it's been discussed a bit is that it doesnt have any real penalty being used. The bigger hitbox suggestion is a good one but it may prove being difficult to code (only assuming there, no knowledge) and not very gameplay friendly. People would need to be able to assess or even see the growth of their hitbox so they can play accordingly. And balancing it, god the horror.
I would simply go with the same thing EVE has : Adding shield extension raises you radar signature, making you a lot easier to be detected.It may push at some point shield user to not just use buffer but also profile dampener. The same way armor users are kinda pushed to use biotics to compensate for their loosy speed.
Regarding the armor penalty, it's just a total non-sense. Proto plate giving 1.5 more HP but 3.3 more penalty is like saying "DONT USE ME". There we all agree. HP numbers should be re-assessed to follow a more logical progression.
I'd go with unchanged numbers for shield.
Armor plates : 45, 90, 135.
At max skill, you'd get 148 HP for a complex plate. Which compared to the 72 for a shield extender sounds about right. (after all, basic shield is 22 and basic plate is 45)
Regarding the movement penalty, it shouldnt be reduced too much. Worse, it should be bigger Why ? because it wont only help armor users, but also shield users. "Why not add a plate as it wont slow me down so much anyway"
=> 4,8,12%
In addition to that, the best solution that i think has been brought up already is to give bonuses to the specific suits that would reduce that penalty. And i dont see why it couldnt be done as you already have gallente assault having a decrease in PG\CPU for hybrid weapons.
You could thus have a racial skill for every basic frames that would add up to specific specialty\racial bonus. Remember those are wild examples to illustrate my post.
- Gallente racial bonus : 10% reduction to armor penalties per level. (You would reach 6% penalty for a complex plate.)
- Amarr racial bonus : 5% reduction to armor penalties per level and 5% reduction to heat build up per level (9% penalty)
- Minmatar : 5% reduction to biotic stacking penalty per level and 5% reduction to radar profile penalty of shield extender per level
- Caldari : 5% reduction to radar profile penalty of shield extender per level + 5 % bonus to shield recharger modules per level.
Point being to emphasize from the beginning each faction's play style. And to push players to focus on a specific tank and add some reflexion in using mixed tanking.
Overall, existing bonuses need a total revamp as they contribute in making shield better than armor. Logistic native repair rate is dumb. Why should a shield tank have the benefit to not even need an armor rep ? Minmatar assault having 1 Hp\s is fine and makes the suit interesting but all logistics getting 5 hp\s for free ? Noooo. Assault specialization bonus being shield focused ? Again, noooooooo.
Imo. Specialization bonuses should emphasize the suits intended purpose, but that's obvious to all of us. Again, examples :
Sentinel specialization : +3 % to base shield and armor Hp per level. (works for any racial variant.)
=> Those guys are freakin tanks. Show them they are !
Assault specialization : + 5 % to light weapons optimal range per level (Not the max range, the optimal)
=> Again, usefull to all races. And emphasize the assault role storming folks with light weapons
Scout specialization : +2 sprint, base speed per level
=> The role i know the least so may be a very bad suggestion.
Logistics specialization : + 10% to nanohives nanites cluster amount per level
=> Again, probably some better suggestion out there but works for every logistic (they all use nanohives) and focused on the fact they are freakin support dudes.
You see the point, and i think we all agree on it (not the examples, the overall idea a specialization bonus CANNOT be about some suits specificity. And add to that racial specialization bonuses. Like gallente assault with pg\cpu for hybrid, etc...
Last but not least. Repair rate vs recharge rate.
This isnt much of a problem in my opinion. Shield is expensive in CPU and PG. Plates are less expansive. Native recharge rate for shield is superior and should remain that way. Because if you fix armor plates so that people use complex, they will have space to fit more reppers, or continue to rely on teammates to heal them.
I really dont think armor users should EVER be able to reach the efficiency of shield recharge. Otherwise, balance will go the other way. Also, it makes sense that an energy based defense reloads faster. I asked a long time for buffs to repair modules. And in my opinion, the bonus given by the skill, allows to reach a decent amount per complex repper.
Also, let's not forget even armor tankers have shield and its regen.
So, maybe it could be buffed. but not by much. Like plates, set a linear progression : 2/4/6 per sec.
To get more buff, use specialty\racial bonuses. |
Laurent Cazaderon
What The French
CRONOS.
1518
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 09:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
To CCP_Remnant, please do share the numbers you have in mind for the new modules, and the penalty tweaks. Those things need to be out to the community as soon as possible. It will allow discussions and maybe avoid you guys some issues afterwards.
In my opinion, ferroscale plates, those with no penalty should give less HP than a shield extender of the same tier. Especially if at some point shield extenders get a penalty like many suggests they should have.
Energized plating will probably be the type of modules you use to fill a hole in your fit lol. |
Laurent Cazaderon
What The French
CRONOS.
1518
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 09:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Laurent - Post noted, fantastic post. I'll type up a lengthy reply shortly.
thanks dude. I love those amazingly detailled threads. so fire at will ! |
Laurent Cazaderon
What The French
CRONOS.
1519
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 10:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:nicely posted laurent.
I agree with your point of armor vs. shield regen to a point. I think base regen on the rep modules needs to be higher, as there is nothing stopping shield users from dropping two regulators in the lows for faster recharging, and dropping one or two shield regen rate boosts in the highs while still maintaining a rather beefy tank.
so we can afford some more wiggle room there, because shield extenders are not the be-all end-all of shield tanking. they are merely the most user-friendly.
You're right. Shield is a 3 dimension tank when armor is only a 2 dimension. But i'd rather see base shield regen slightly lowered than armor reps getting to much of a boost. I'm at work and have a doubt but i think you get +25% on reps when full skilled.
Which means 6.25 per complex rep.
With my gallente logi i can reach almost 25HP\s repair rate with 3 complex repair. If the plates were working as i stated, i could add 2 complex and get around 300 HP bonus for as much penalty as i'd get using 1 complex plate atm.
Even if you were to take off the logi bonus. you'd still be around 20 hp\sec. Which is decent for an armor based fit.
Oh and one thing i forgot in my previous post about movement penalty (will add it). I think it shouldnt affect base movement speed. This stat should be lower for armor oriented suit but should be locked. It's a too important factor in how the game behave regarding hit detection and unlike sprint speed, you can't use any module to counter-balance the penalty. |
Laurent Cazaderon
What The French
CRONOS.
1519
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 10:17:00 -
[5] - Quote
D legendary hero wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:
stuff
i know you love long posts, so i'll make this short. armor plates right now give a movement penalty. if inaddition to the movement penalty a resistance to damage taken to armor only was added it would offset the lower mobility, and recharge/recover rate. since most weapons now are more effective against armor than shields it will help offset the deficiency. this is meant to compensate not empower. shield tankers get rapid recharge, armor gets resistance. ideally with head shots (skill) it wont make a difference. (P.S. the blank 30% resistance for the heavy suit is just to offset its low mobility. however, the exact details are mentioned on my thread. this is not the thread for this. go here for info on heavies and resistance >>>> https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=81725)
Regarding resistance, the safe bet in my opinion is to tweak efficiency vs shield\armor weapon side. Not tank side. |
Laurent Cazaderon
What The French
CRONOS.
1524
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 13:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:
1. I think that a larger hitbox partially balances itself out when it's not visible. It's a significant penalty, sure, but you can't see it, which lets you land more shots when you're shooting at an open target but it doesn't let you splat them behind cover very well. I'm not really sure a shield penalty is the way to go, though, honestly.
Putting a signature radius penalty on shields and balancing assuming that's significant doesn't work. At all.
Here's why:
Passive scanning is bad right now, except on scouts. The vast, vast majority of dots on your tacnet come from people tagging them.
Active scanning picks up everything right now, except profile dampened suits and scouts. Basically, as it still picks up the armour suits, having a shield penalty to detectability wouldn't do anything in practice.
2/3. Good that you agree with this, but... you basically just nerfed armour plates with those numbers, and that's not very good.
Basic plates aren't 45. Those are militia plates, and that's another imbalance I commented on - militia plates are worse than basic plates in HP gain, militia shield extenders aren't worse than basic shield extenders in HP gain.
Increasing the speed penalty isn't a good way to go. Assuming ferroscale plates aren't laughable, normal plates would become unused. With those numbers, you've reduced the HP gain vs the speed penalty further, which is the main issue with the complex plate right now and the reason nobody uses them.
Nerfing armour tanking at the basic level, if anything, should ABSOLUTELY NOT be done. Basic armour tanking is much, much worse off than the higher tier armour tanking due to the repair rates - a basic armour tanker can take over two minutes to repair their armour to full, which is ridiculous, and they still get lower HP than shields.
Relying on a racial bonus to reduce the movement penalty makes armour tanking reliant on significant SP investment to use properly. A role bonus would be more doable, but it would be better not to do it at all tbh.
Shield tankers are probably going to put on a reactive plate anyway, and if we're looking at shield tankers putting on armour modules then we start to get into dual tanking, which is less of a problem.
4. I covered some of this in the previous point.
Agreed with bonuses needing a total revamp. The current ones don't work very well and make a significant imbalance.
I'm not sure about your proposed suit bonuses, for example.
The sentinel HP buff seems a bit soft for what it is. I know resistances are a very strong buff, but I genuinely think that a 3% resistance bonus would work for them.
Assault I think I'm okay with, but it increases problems with short ranged weapons being outranged - it would hurt the heavy more, for example.
Scout... You essentially just suggested a 10m/s speed increase to scouts. That's insane, completely insane. Scouts would run faster than a full speed LAV would drive. Continued in next post.
1) Bigger hitbox i dont dislike but i'm pretty sure it's a massive pain to code. And i dont see it happening to be honest.
But still, everything has a downside. The point being shield having a smaller downside than armor as it gives, for equivalent tier less HP amount.
Regarding the signature malus on shield. You cant rule it out because the current system isnt perfect. You say most dots come from people spotting the enemy. Yes, most. Not all. And bigger signature could go with longer display on the tacnet, or being spotted from a longer distance. Plenty of choices there.
2/3) There i feel you misunderstood me. Like a lot. The whole point, the main idea of my previous reply is to enhance the efficiency of armor oriented suits to use armor modules. And same goes with shield.
Regarding base HP of the plates. I merely use a roughly x2 multiplier compared to what shield module gives you at the same tier. So yes, i lowered the std one so it would suit that idea.
And regarding the penalty, this suggestion only applies with the other suggestion to add specific bonuses to the basic frame skills depending on the race. (copy pasting here)
- Gallente racial bonus : 10% reduction to armor penalties per level. (You would reach 6% penalty for a complex plate.)
- Amarr racial bonus : 5% reduction to armor penalties per level and 5% reduction to heat build up per level (9% penalty)
So in the end, gallente, the most armor oriented suit gets a way lower penalty that it does now (6% for complex) and with more base HP. 6% penalty for 148 HP. How does that make armor tanking worse ?
Regarding ferroplates now. when i said they shouldnt give much armor, it was in the same idea. If a complex ferroscale gives 90 HP without any kind of penalty ? What do you think shield tanker will do ? Both shield and armor tank. And in my opinion, buffing HP with a defense type that isnt originally the suits purpose should either bring you a very limited advantage, or come with a bigger penalty than the specialized suit. eg, minmatar assault using plates. It happens often in EVE.
So yeah, movement penalty would be higher, but only for the race who wouldnt get a penalty reduction through one of their skill bonuses. Is it more clear now ? And again, i also think movement penalty shouldnt impact base movement speed as you cant buff it back.
You mention something about low level tanking being awfull. yes it is. i'll admit it tend to think at high levels coz that's ultimately where you will end up. But the SP investment isnt that high as you WILL skill into suits pretty quickly, especially when knowing that reaching level 3 only cost an overall 273600 SP. Which would already give 30% penalty reduction.
Aka 6% penalty for enhanced plates using a gallente suit. If this only affects spring and not base movement anymore, then you're way better off than what you get now.
To be continued. |
Laurent Cazaderon
What The French
CRONOS.
1524
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 13:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
next part of the reply |
Laurent Cazaderon
What The French
CRONOS.
1541
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 13:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Laurent Cazaderon wrote:
1) Bigger hitbox i dont dislike but i'm pretty sure it's a massive pain to code. And i dont see it happening to be honest.
But still, everything has a downside. The point being shield having a smaller downside than armor as it gives, for equivalent tier less HP amount.
Agreed.
Regarding the signature malus on shield. You cant rule it out because the current system isnt perfect. You say most dots come from people spotting the enemy. Yes, most. Not all. And bigger signature could go with longer display on the tacnet, or being spotted from a longer distance. Plenty of choices there.
Most, being the vast, vast majority, like over 90%. It depends on how scanning evolves tbh.
2/3) There i feel you misunderstood me. Like a lot. The whole point, the main idea of my previous reply is to enhance the efficiency of armor oriented suits to use armor modules. And same goes with shield.
Perhaps I did. I don't think racial bonuses are the way to go for it though - perhaps a role bonus would be better?
Regarding base HP of the plates. I merely use a roughly x2 multiplier compared to what shield module gives you at the same tier. So yes, i lowered the std one so it would suit that idea.
I don't really like doing that, because the lower tiered plates would really start to suck when you put on a bigger speed penalty as well. And yes, I know it's mitigated by the bonuses you propose, but remember at the basic level people don't have that SP to invest.
And regarding the penalty, this suggestion only applies with the other suggestion to add specific bonuses to the basic frame skills depending on the race. (copy pasting here)
- Gallente racial bonus : 10% reduction to armor penalties per level. (You would reach 6% penalty for a complex plate.)
- Amarr racial bonus : 5% reduction to armor penalties per level and 5% reduction to heat build up per level (9% penalty)
So in the end, gallente, the most armor oriented suit gets a way lower penalty that it does now (6% for complex) and with more base HP. 6% penalty for 148 HP. How does that make armor tanking worse ?
It makes it worse because you -absolutely must- spec the skills to all 5 before you get to that point. It's not overall worse if you can do that, though.
Regarding ferroplates now. when i said they shouldnt give much armor, it was in the same idea. If a complex ferroscale gives 90 HP without any kind of penalty ? What do you think shield tanker will do ? Both shield and armor tank. And in my opinion, buffing HP with a defense type that isnt originally the suits purpose should either bring you a very limited advantage, or come with a bigger penalty than the specialized suit. eg, minmatar assault using plates. It happens often in EVE.
This is true, but that then effectively nerfs armour tankers because you don't want shield tankers to use it too. You can't balance a module to make it ineffective because otherwise other people will use it. We also don't have that kind of thinking with shield tanking, and it shows. Shield tanked Gallente dropsuits are already on the battlefield.
So yeah, movement penalty would be higher, but only for the race who wouldnt get a penalty reduction through one of their skill bonuses. Is it more clear now ? And again, i also think movement penalty shouldnt impact base movement speed as you cant buff it back.
I must have missed your comment on base movement speed. That makes things make a lot more sense.
You mention something about low level tanking being awfull. yes it is. i'll admit it tend to think at high levels coz that's ultimately where you will end up. But the SP investment isnt that high as you WILL skill into suits pretty quickly, especially when knowing that reaching level 3 only cost an overall 273600 SP. Which would already give 30% penalty reduction.
Aka 6% penalty for enhanced plates using a gallente suit. If this only affects spring and not base movement anymore, then you're way better off than what you get now.
I think a better solution to this would be using role bonuses to mitigate the armour penalties instead. You could also solve the ferroscale issue if you want to make armour tanking reliant on bonuses by bonusing the ferroscale HP.
I don't agree with having to use suit bonuses to make a tank type worth using, because in this case it's only applying to one kind of tank. Shield tankers still don't have to do that, making shield tanking viable on any suit.
To be continued.
Answers bolded inside the quote.
Thus why i root for adding a penalty to shield tanking. Either be it signature radius or bigger hitbox if doable. And the same way you'd get better at using armor through skilling basic skills. The bonuses i suggest would be linked to the basic frames skills. First skills chose by many players and easily trained to level 3. At which point my number reach the current penalty number or even less.
It makes sense in my opinion that a suit build to use armors uses it better. You mention shield tanked gallente. But this is only due to armor being complete crap. I run logi gallente (assault is just dumb cpu\pg wise) and i never intended to use 3 extenders like i do now. If armor was better and using extra shield gave me a penalty. i wouldnt.
That's also the purpose here. Trying to push players to not go for HP buff only modules.
As for the ferroscale plates, i'm trying to get CCP to share the numbers. |
Laurent Cazaderon
What The French
CRONOS.
1541
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 13:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
Regarding the contact nade debate. they shouldnt exist. Ever. Not in any FPS. Cook your nades for christ sake...
Any fused grenade should be replaced by M1 with no skill requirement so people who bought pack dont go mad. And any other contact nade taken off the market and reimbursed to their owners.
Aim at feet iwin button = bad gameplay |
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